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- [00:01]
A
Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Because behind every headline is a bottom line, whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings. There's a money side to every story. And when you see the money side, you understand what others miss. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now@bloomberg.com starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com specialoffer I'm
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B
launching a campaign with Norman Baker about royal transparency with the Mail to make their finances less opaque. And I mean, these are things that we wouldn't have been able to do or wouldn't even thought of doing if we'd felt the Royal Family was getting ahead of the story and dealing with it. And there is a suspicion that Andrew will never face charges, that the Royal Family will ensure that basically he continues to be protected as he has been and nothing really has changed. The elites will take care of themselves, whether it's here or in the States.
- [01:28]
C
I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast and it's hard to think of an author who's had more impact this year than the British traditional establishment historian than Andrew Loney, whose book entitled We Covered when it came out last Summer September, and who really, as he will go on to say, loosened the earth around. The reporting of Andrew, formerly known as Prince Andrew, his wife Fergie, and of course, Jeffrey Epstein. He talks about the impact on the Royal Family and all sorts of revelations which frankly, no one believed at the beginning because they seemed so outlandish. And of course, they were just the tip of the iceberg. Now, before we go any further, I have to remind you, please subscribe to the Daily Beast if you haven't we are independent media. There aren't that many of us around, so we rely on your support and we appreciate it and you can become a Beast tier member if you like, which allows you into a very exclusive salon. Anyway, no time to waste. Andrew Laney is full of the goods. The paperback of his book is just out and it's full of revelations. And of course, between the hardback and the paperback, we had Andrew stripped of his title by his brother the King. We had him arrested on his 66th birthday. And we had that extraordinary picture distributed by Reuters taken by Phil Nobles of him looking utterly gobsmacked in the back of a Range Rover as he was driven away by his security from the police station. Andrew Loney, let's get into it. Extremely excited to have Andrew Loney back with us. Andrew, I'm going to take a tiny bit of credit because we had you on right at the beginning of the publication of entitled the Hardback last fall. Since then, well, I'm looking at you and you seem the very image of an English historian. Distinguished, gray hair, light blue shirt. I imagine you're about to stroll out to Wimbledon and eat strawberries or possibly go to Ascot. Or are you. Can you go down the street now without people wanting to either shout at you or rush up and applaud you for your impact on Andrew, formerly known as Prince?
- [03:55]
B
Well, you're absolutely right. Daily Beast got in there very early. And I think it's as a result of being on the Daily Beast, I do get accosted. I'm always nervous I'm going to get a punch on the face what happened to John Gregg when he wants to be an honest friend. So I tread carefully. But, yes, I'm all set. I'm not sure I'm gonna be invited to Ascot this year, but, yes, I'm looking forward to the summer and the book. I mean, what's extraordinary is the news headlines still keep coming in, which, of course, is great news for the book.
- [04:27]
C
So the book comes out and it causes an absolute uproar. And I've been tracking you trying to write this book too, because you had all sorts of interference as you were trying to do it. What are. Just remind our viewers and listeners what were the revelations in the book that shocked everybody so much? And then of course, the paperback edition, which has just come out now. I mean, I feel like the entire royal family has been shaken upside down by the arrival of your book. And then, of course, the double whammy of the Epstein files and what we discovered about Andrew's friendship and Fergie's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, which they'd lied about. So just take us through the initial revelations and then everything that's happened since in terms of Andrew and Fergie and the impact on the King.
- [05:24]
B
Well, I suppose what I did was I loosened the earth. And I mean, though clearly there's been reporting on both Andrew and Fergie for years and the mischief they've gone up to no one, had pulled everything together. And I think what I managed to do was I Talked to about 300 people, many of them quite close. The former naval mentor of Andrew, through his commander in the Falklands, lots of people who'd never spoken before. And a picture emerged of basically two grifters who'd been allowed to operate for 40 years, using their royal status to make money for themselves, basically protected by the Queen and later by King Charles. And so this became a story not just about two bad apples, but about endemic corruption within an institution which really needs much more transparency. And I think that's the big change. I think because the royal family have kind of not really got ahead of this story. They've always just moved, been forced, kicking and screaming, to make a few changes. There are now wider questions being asked about their accountability and privilege. But I think the real game, the two game changers really were Virginia Giffery's book, which I think really brought home the human side of the story. And then the Epstein releases, which gave us chapter and verse, email after email after awful pictures of Andrew leering over supine girls, just how awful this story was. And then very good work by particularly by Substack and by podcasts like Daily Beast, Tom Sykes and others who've really begin to dug into the story, look at the files and. Which have confirmed much what I found from my sources, but clearly have gone further in terms of what was going on, for example, at the Zorro ranch and elsewhere.
- [07:05]
C
So, Andrew, since the book's come out, and of course you're right to mention Virginia Giuffre's book and the Epstein files, and our own royalist, Tom Sykes reporting Andrew has lost his royal title. He's now known as Andrew Mountbatten Windsor. He's been taken out of his royal residence and sort of dispatched to the furthest corners of Sandringham. And then of course, there was that astounding arrest on his 66th birthday, very early in the morning, and the staggering picture by Phil Nobles of Reuters of him in the back of the car looking absolutely shell shocked at what had happened. Where is the police investigation right now into Andrew and. And what exactly are they looking for?
- [08:00]
B
Well, we don't really know where the police investigation is because they're keeping it very much under wraps. I mean, I think it perhaps isn't as far advanced as one would hope. The fact that Thames Valley police have kind of basically put a call out for victims to come forward suggests that they are struggling to get victims to talk to them. I understand that some victims are going to give a press conference in London soon and I think some things will come out then. I'm always a little cynical that a lot of this is performative, that they're going through the motions of appearing to investigate and do things, but nothing much is happening. I think one of the problems is there isn't a great deal of cooperation from the Department of Justice. The Metropolitan Police, for example, have been asking for unredacted files and they aren't sharing them. And also the problem with there are a whole range of charges that could be brought. Sex trafficking, very difficult to identify. The girls that were involved, many of them were anonymous, have gone back to Ukraine or Sweden or wherever they came from, and a lot of them are now married with children. The last thing they want to do is bring this story up again. There are a whole variety of charges. I mean, they're looking at misconduct in public office. They're saying it'll be very hard to bring. It's very hard to show that he was an official as opposed to Mandelson, who was paid. He was sharing diplomatic, commercial and political secrets with those who weren't entitled to see that material. And I think the law on that is very clear. So, I mean, the big question is, what is happening? Tamsdale police seem to be the most active. I mean, amazingly, Police Scotland haven't said anything. Girls were being taken to Birkhall and to Balmoral. And of course, we've had this BBC revelation from the weekend that 33,000 emails which were hacked from Jonathan Rowlands years ago in another dispute, were passed to the palace in 2020. Now, the big question is, what did they do with those? Some of that material had already appeared in papers like Blomberg and the Mel on Sunday. Has Lord Peel, who was the Lord Chamberlain who was given that material six years ago, has he done anything with it? I mean, it should have gone straight to the police. Or has this been part of a cover up? Does the King know about this? Was he told about this atrocious material?
- [10:16]
C
Andrew, let me just ask you, because here we're not covering the Royal News with the minutiae that the British press are. Perhaps Tom Sykes notwithstanding, what was the core of the 33,000 emails?
- [10:33]
B
The 33,000 emails are part of a legal dispute between Jonathan Rowlands and one of his business partners. Jonathan Rowlands is the son of David Rowlands. They touted themselves as Andrew's business partners. And these emails basically show how Andrew was arranging for Jonathan Rowlands to go on trips with him as a trade envoy, Andrew was introducing them on these trips to people who could be useful for them in business. Indeed, getting, for example, ambassadors in China to set up separate meetings for the Rolands, as opposed to others who were on this trade delegation. So we've seen some of this sort of material in the Epstein releases, but this is really hard evidence of how Andrew abused his position and was working for the Rowlands as opposed to the British taxpayer.
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C
And to what extent do we think the Queen knew about this?
- [11:30]
B
Well, I mean, I'm sure the Queen knew about it. She knew everything that was going on and made it her business to do so. I mean, it's interesting that the person who succeeded Lord Peel as Lord Chamberlain is a former head of MI5, Lord Parker Christopher Gite, her former private secretary's ex Intelligence Corps. So, I mean, she's surrounded by intelligence people, she's briefed by the intelligence services all the time. Both Sarah and Andrew actually were being or put under surveillance by the intelligence services, not because they were under surveillance themselves, but because the people they consulted with were of interest to MI5 and MI6 and the National Crime Agency. And the fact is, this stuff has been in the press for the last 15 years. There are no surprises. We had the story of Sarah Ferguson sending access to Andrew for half a million pounds in 2010. Nothing happened to Andrew, nothing happened to Sarah Ferguson, no Investigations, no reprimand. 2022, £1.3 million found in a court case to have been given to the Yorks, which they couldn't explain. Money given not just to Andrew, but to Sarah Ferguson and one of the daughters. And we've had constant stories of the press having denials from the palace about Epstein's stories, then having legal threats. We had Amy Roebach at ABC basically saying, I would like to run this story. And ABC being told that if they did so, they would lose access to members of the Royal Family and they backed off. So lots and lots of pressure being put on the media not to cover this story. I mean, ambassadors were told not to speak to me. For example, for my book, I've had a whole series of interviews that were never published, invitations that were rescinded, briefings against me saying that I made up this stuff, there's nothing new, I'm not a serious historian, etc. I mean, everything has sort of been thrown to kind of muddy the waters, because the fact is, you know, there's some very damaging information that's come out about the Royal Family and it looks like they've covered it up for the last. Well, possibly the last 10 years.
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C
So, Andrew, is it fair to say that the Queen, and one thinks of her funeral, it was a global affair, billions of people watched it, that there is a revised view of the Queen now because Andrew was supposed to be her favored child and that she basically either enabled him or turned a blind eye to his grifting. Which do you think it was?
- [14:07]
B
Well, I think it's very like Margaret Thatcher, you know, a revered figure, but had the blind spot with her son Mark. And I think that was the case with the Queen. She didn't want to know. She preferred the information not to be brought to her, didn't want to accept it. I mean, the big question is why Prince Philip didn't step in. But I think she did in many ways help Andrew. I mean, she would, for example, give him various rewards when he was named in the heir Epstein files. He was made a Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order, he was given the Knight of the Garter. She would very deliberately place him beside her in the car. She deliberately sent out signals that she believed her son. She accepted presents from some of the dictators he was dealing with, particularly from Aliyev in Azerbaijan, entertained them at the palace, basically, you know, put out the hand of friendship to these people who were doing business with her son and who were suppressing, you know, human rights and all sorts of things in their own countries.
- [15:05]
C
The Knight of the Garter being awarded the Knight of the Garter for a friendship with Jeffrey Epstein sounds about right, actually. I mean, it sounds like something that Jeffrey Epstein would be doing in his own mansion on East 71st Street. How is King Charles dealing with Andrew now?
- [15:27]
B
Well, I don't think he's doing a good job. I think the more ruthless he is, the more popular he is. And I think he's created a bigger problem than would have been if he'd stepped in some time ago. If last October, Andrew hadn't been allowed to make that statement, saying that he was standing down voluntarily. He denied the allegations, there was no mention of the victims. And people were so angry by that that Charles then had to step in at the end of the month and take away his title and kind of cut him loose. But, you know, if he had operated more quickly and he wouldn't have had this heckling, he wouldn't have these wider questions being asked about royal accountability and privilege. And we now have. I'm launching a campaign with Norman Baker about royal transparency with the Mail, you know, to make their finances less opaque. And, I mean, these are things that we wouldn't have been able to do or wouldn't even thought of doing if we'd felt the royal family was getting ahead of the story and dealing with it. And there is a suspicion that Andrew will never face charges, that the royal family will ensure that basically he continues to be protected as he has been, and nothing really has changed. The elites will take care of themselves, whether it's here or in the States.
- [16:41]
C
So who does Andrew hang out now with? I mean, on the one hand, we hear that he's sort of been banished to a sort of dismal corner of Sandringham, if there is a dismal corner of a royal estate. But what is he actually doing during the day?
- [16:59]
B
Well, I think he's talking to his lawyers. I'm told that a lot of the victims, their arrangements were being made to pay them off. I think he's presumably anticipating how they will kill any charges that might be brought. I mean, my own feeling is they're going to be kicked into the long grass and there won't be any charges in the current reign. But Gary Block, some special. His lawyer, specializes in basically cases never coming to court. So they'll be looking at how they can get around any of the charges that might be brought. He gets up late, he watches videos, he occasionally goes for a walk. It's a pretty lonely life. He has a close friend called Henry Anderson who comes and sees him, but his life with his family is pretty fractured. He's not seen his latest grandchild, his wife has kind of abandoned him. He's not in touch with his second daughter. So it's a pretty grim existence in some ways. My understanding, talking to people who are close to him, is he doesn't seem to realize the seriousness of his situation. I mean, we had that picture, as you say, taken on the day of his arrest where he does look very shocked, but he's sort of come back. He's kind of involved in trivialities where he's gonna park his car and why can't he go and go riding again? He doesn't seem to realize the seriousness of the charges that could be leveled against him.
- [18:21]
C
And where is Sarah Ferguson now? I mean, there was something so forlorn about her suckuppery to Jeffrey Epstein. And at one point she's like, marry me. You know, because she's looking for a solution to her financial problems, clearly. Where is she now and what is she doing for money? I'm always fascinated from a very prosaic point of view, because I know how hard I know how hard I work and how hard it is to live the life you want to lead financially. They have much more grandiose ambitions, obviously, than I do. But how does she survive? Who's paying her? Where does the money come from?
- [19:08]
B
Well, I mean, the first question is, where is she? I don't know. I suspect she may be seeing the grandchild in Portugal. She may still be in Austria. She may be staying with Paddy McNally at his home in Wiltshire. She does have these loyal friends, most of whom bankroll her. Like Paddy McNally.
- [19:24]
C
Paddy McNally was her old boyfriend. Right. Who she, I think, dated before she married Prince.
- [19:30]
B
Absolutely. I mean, its relationship goes back almost 50 years. I mean, it's extraordinary. But he's still there. I mean, she has a lot of sort of rich benefactors. I mean, she's close to Richard Branson, so all these people, I think, may have stepped in and maybe at least accommodating her. What she's living off is a good question. I mean, they just sold a house in Central London for £4 million. No one's actually worked out where that money's gone. It could be trust money for the daughters and it's gone to the daughters, but it could be money that she's been given. She was living for a time off the credit cards of her daughters. She may well have saved some money over the years. I mean, she made a lot of money, even though she spent a lot. But I think you're right, money is a worry to her and she will be. I know she was entertaining offers from television networks to both give an interview and to be a presenter, which is extraordinary that people feel she carries any credibility. Now. I'm sure there'll be publishers who would commission a book off her. I mean, she's been paid huge sums of money in the past for books which reveal very little. And I'm sure there are people in places like China and elsewhere who will be only too happy to have her as a brand ambassador. So who knows? But I think she will pop back. I think she should be giving an interview to law enforcement. She should be acting as a material witness to the Senate investigations. But I think at the moment, she's operating like a sort of Becky Sharp, just seeing what the best deal might be out there for her.
- [21:09]
C
Wow. So we know that the King is, as we've discussed, frequently living with cancer. We don't know what kind of cancer. They've never made it public. But clearly he still has plenty of energy. But at some point, he will pass the Crown or the crown gets passed to William. What do we know of William's relationship with Andrew at this point and what do William and Kate make of it all?
- [21:41]
B
Well, I think the relationship, William and Andrew's never been good, even when William was a child. I think it's. There's a personal animus and I think there's also a concern about the reputational damage. My understanding is there's tensions between William and Charles because William doesn't feel that Charles is being sufficiently ruthless and that he would like Charles to deal with this problem. It's also the problem of the daughters who kind of yo yo in and out of royal favor. One minute they're going to Ascot or to Sandringham and the next they're not. And I think William wants basically a very sharp line drawn between the York family and the rest of the royal family. Doesn't want them to appear in public with any members of the royal family. I think it's unlikely that daughters will attend Peter Philip's wedding this weekend. And that's the tension. Charles, I think, perhaps feels maybe it's easier to keep them inside the tent and William feels that actually we should just take the hit and not let them hold us to ransom as they have in the past. I mean, there are rumors that Fergie is trying to negotiate some sort of deal that she's paid off to keep quiet and provide her with accommodation and a pension. I don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me. So I think there is a problem there in terms of attitudes towards them by different members of the royal family. And I think some are more sympathetic to the Yorks. I think Princess Anne, for example, has put out a hand to her brother, whereas others feel that he's really beyond the pale and they're worried that they're going to be fresh disclosures. There may be more releases from the Epstein files, say victims are beginning to come forward and make public statements. I've had something like 60 people come to me in the last six months with material. I've got about 200,000 words already of new material for a new book called Untitled Epstein and the Fall of Windsor at the House of Windsor. So I think this is a bigger story. Now. It may be that Epstein was just trying every member of the royal family to see if he could find a little chink. He was clearly using Sarah as a way into Andrew and Andrew as a way into Charles and the Queen, but. And he was targeting clearly other royal families. But, you know, it would be very damaging if other members of the Royal family had been found to have been compromised by episodes Epstein in some form or another.
- [24:00]
C
And of course, he was also using his friend Ghislaine Maxwell, who at one point was dating Prince Andrew to get access to the Royal family. Right?
- [24:10]
B
Yes, absolutely. I mean, it was all, you know, he used any means he could and there were all sorts of connections. You know, anything that raised his credibility, his access, his further contacts he would exploit. And Andrew was one of the sort of bits of low hanging fruit, but there were others and, you know, everything was transactional. It was transactional between Andrew and Epstein. Epstein provided clearly bankrolling Fergie, providing girls and again providing useful contacts for him, places to stay.
- [24:44]
C
Do we know from the, from the first tranche of Epstein emails and Epstein files, what did Epstein, Epstein actually think of Andrew? I know that Andrew thought that Epstein was a friend, but what insight do you have into what Jeffrey Epstein actually thought of this British prince?
- [25:02]
B
We have never seen anything where he explicitly talked about Andrew in those terms. But certainly I quote in the first book, he was shocked by Andrew's behavior. He called him, he said, I'm kinky, but Andrew's even kinkier than me. So I think he kind of felt he'd met his match on that score. I think, you know, like so many people he dealt with, Epstein just saw Andrew as a useful vehicle that he could play and a very easy one and someone who was useful to him. He clearly, you know, used him as an insurance policy very deliberately. Was photographed with him in Central park in December 2010. Very clear the paparazzi were outside and this was all about establishing his credentials and his kind of safety net. So I don't think there was any real affection there or friendship. They were using each other.
- [25:55]
C
Ghislaine Maxwell, as we know, has been moved by now the acting Attorney General in the States from a Florida jail to a prison camp in Texas. There's some assumptions that she may get a pardon. Her family largely live in London and her brother, particularly Ian Maxwell, has been trying to get her a pardon or get her out. And I think believes that that will eventually come to pass. What are you hearing about the possibility of a Ghislaine Maxwell pardon?
- [26:32]
B
Yes, I think that's very likely. You know, she's done her bit. She's kept Trump out of any sort of disclosures. She's done her bit and she's calling in the favor. And there's a big campaign by the Maxwell family, I mean, both to discredit the victims, including Virginia Giuffre, they paid a man called Jay Beecher £80,000 to write things. There are a whole series of people involved in this campaign. Victoria Harvey perhaps has been the best known, so. Absolutely. And that is something that the victims are appalled by, that given she quite rightly was given a 20 year sentence, that she will be allowed out. And to be honest, the sense that maybe she has already gone. I mean, we are told that she's in this no security prison, but there's no reason why, for example, one day she couldn't move for her own personal safety to another prison. We don't know where that is. And that other person turns out to be a Caribbean island. So Trump will clearly have a lot of pushback when he gives a pardon, but I think that's pretty certain. And I know this is a campaign to see if Ghislaine can be charged with other offenses in Britain and actually get round this American legal system.
- [27:53]
C
What a story, Andrew. What a story. So do you have a publication date yet for your new book? Untitled?
- [28:02]
B
No. I mean, the books take about four years to research, as you can imagine, so it's some years off. So certainly a lot of people are coming forward with a lot of interesting information. And, you know, let's hope within four years we will know what Andrew's fate is, whether he has escaped to Abu Dhabi, he's still sitting in Sandringham doing the washing up, or he's actually still at his brother's pleasure, but in HMP
- [28:26]
C
Wandsworth, HMP being Her Majesty's or His Majesty's prison, I should say. Andrew and I wonder if the next time we. We talk, the wall of books behind you on your desk will have got even taller. It is so wonderful seeing an English author's writing desk. I mean, it's just a joyful thing. Now, you mentioned at the beginning that your friend John Grigg had taken a blow to the nose. What is that about? Was he defending your honour?
- [28:53]
B
Well, I sort of modeled myself on John Grigg, who was Baron Altringham, and he described himself as an honest friend of the monarchy. He was a monarchist, but he felt that they needed to reform in order to survive. And he was very critical of the Queen when she first came to the throne. And he was reviled. I mean, people kind of tried to kick him out of their club, his clubs. I mean, some of the same stuff that I've been getting. But a man punched him in the nose in the street and I'm waiting for a reprise of that. So if I come with a bloodied nose next time, you know that they found me.
- [29:32]
C
Oh, my goodness. Well, it's amazing, Andrew, you've unearthed all sorts of scandal in the royal family which they or certainly had been successfully buried. Good luck with the paperback edition of the book and we will look forward to talking to you again, I hope, at the end of the summer. And good luck with attending all the very English events you're about to go into the season. It's Wimbledon, it's Henley, it's Ascot at enormous fun, but I do hope you don't get socially extradited to the far corner of Wimbledon or Ascot.
- [30:07]
B
Right, thank you. Well, I'll report back, tell you how I got on.
- [30:10]
C
Good. All right, Andrew, thank you very much for joining us.
- [30:14]
B
No, thank you.
- [30:20]
C
I love talking to Andrew Loney. He's someone I've known for 40 years. I've watched him grow as a historian and his reporting and his investigations have been nothing short of astonishing. Anyway, we will be hearing more from him over the summer. I hope he gets to go to some posh English summer events. The season, as it's called, is really quite fun. A lot of Pimm's to be drunk, a sort of weird fruity drink with large chunks of strawberry and cucumber, if you can believe it, and of course, endless strawberries and cream. He deserves a huge bowl of them. We'll be back with Inside Trump's Head tomorrow. Please leave us your favorite parts of the conversation as a comment on YouTube. And big thanks to our long suffering production team. I don't think you could see the technical difficulties we were wrestling with interviewing Andrew. I think it was probably the intelligence services listening in on our call. Anyway, I sometimes worry for Andrew if his apartment is stuffed full of, as he says, 200,000 words of new revelations about Prince Andrew or the Andrew formerly known as Prince, but let's hope it makes it to the publishers. Anyway, back, as I said, with Michael Wolff tomorrow for Inside Trump's Head. And a big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many bee beast tier members now there are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.