How Jared Played Trump to Grease Own Pocket: Wolff

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Daily Beast Podcast
Episode: How Jared Played Trump to Grease Own Pocket: Wolff
Air Date: October 12, 2025
Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Michael Wolff

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the complex relationship between Donald Trump and his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, centering on Kushner’s business motivations and his political maneuvering during the Trump administration. Joanna Coles and Michael Wolff discuss how Kushner leveraged his proximity to power to benefit financially—especially via major ventures into the Middle East—while illuminating both personal and political dynamics inside the Trump-Kushner orbit. Wolff also details the outsized role personal ambition and the lure of the Nobel Peace Prize play in Trump’s worldview, touching on the recent snubbing of Trump by the Nobel committee and the resulting fallout.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jared Kushner: From Lightweight to Key Operator

• Origins: Michael Wolff recounts his first impressions of Kushner as an unremarkable, overprivileged figure after buying the New York Observer (“a lightweight. Just, you know, a rich guy who had way overpaid for this newspaper.” – Wolff, 09:11).
• Evolution: Kushner’s surprising ascendency during the Trump campaign, labeled as the “family monitor,” was primarily to protect the Trump brand rather than run a serious political operation.

2. The "List": Kushner’s Powerbase and Profit Motive

• Voter Data as Leverage: Kushner was instrumental in building the Trump campaign’s voter database—an asset not just strategically valuable, but also lucrative.
  • “Jared really represents the idea that governing should work for the people who are doing the governing as well as the governed... the theme of Trump trying to profit from the presidency.” (Wolff, 13:41)
• Opportunism or "The Grift": The podcast grapples with whether Kushner and his allies are “deal guys” or “grifters,” ultimately distinguishing them by their relentless pursuit of money. “What deal guys and grifters have in common is... following the money.” (Wolff, 16:00)

3. The Middle East: Business Over Peace

• Affinity Partners: Post-White House, Kushner establishes his investment fund, netting $2 billion from the Saudis, with investments spanning Israeli, American, and African companies. This is seen as monetizing his White House connections:
  • “When he got out of the White House, he’s monetized this at a level we have never before seen from anyone in the White House.” (Wolff, 22:28)
• Family Connections: The logic of power and business in the Gulf revolves around families, much as it does for Jared and Trump:
  • “Their idea of the money and who has the money and how you exchange the money is always a family thing.” (Wolff, 17:00)

4. Trump’s Obsession with the Nobel Peace Prize

• An All-Consuming Goal: Wolff describes how Trump’s desire for the Nobel Peace Prize overshadowed any genuine interest in peace. He was convinced—even days before the announcement—that he was a lock for the award.
  • “He was, as recently as somewhat more than 24 hours ago, telling people that he was a lock on the Nobel Peace Prize.” (Wolff, 06:25)
  • “Trump is a very simple machine. What does he want?... The Nobel Peace Prize has been an obsession.” (Wolff, 30:11)
• Kushner’s Manipulation: Kushner leverages this obsession, pushing Trump towards actions that could benefit his own business interests, such as cracking down on Bibi Netanyahu to curry favor in the Gulf.
  • “Jared is good at this. He knows how to play his father-in-law.” (Wolff, 28:39)

5. Inside the Trump-Kushner Dynamic

• Physical & Social Dynamics: Wolff paints a vivid picture of their interpersonal relationship. Trump is physically and psychologically dominating, while Kushner is portrayed as awkward, thin, and socially inept:
  • “Jared is a 98-pound weakling in the classic sense...he kind of pulls himself together...retreats. You can see him physically retreat against the presence of his father in law.” (Wolff, 37:52)
• Risk and Reward: Kushner’s ability to survive and thrive is rooted in his calculation that he could exercise power without exposing himself to the risks of another Trump administration.
  • “He is the winner out of that White House. He understood all of the reasons not to go back into the White House...maximize the money he is going to get.” (Wolff, 40:53)

6. Self-Interest vs Public Good

• Peace as a Byproduct: The discussion closes on the paradox that, while Kushner’s drive is self-enrichment, it occasionally aligns with broader positive outcomes:
  • “He craves influence in the Middle East...all of which is helped by peace. So peace becomes a byproduct of business.” (Wolff, 32:56)
  • “We have in the broader context is peace. But peace brought to us by—for reasons that we don’t understand, by powers that we can’t control...Would you rather have an equitable world or peace? And I think...people would certainly choose peace.” (Wolff, 34:16)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Kushner's reputation:
  “He was not a person you would have any interest in getting to know at that time...one of the great lightweight Jared Kushners of all time.”
  — Michael Wolff (09:11)

• On the Kushner-Trump White House:
  “In the first White House they used to say, you know, when the going gets tough, Jared is nowhere to be found.”
  — Michael Wolff (24:33)

• On Kushner’s post-White House pivot:
  “Jared got the money and Trump did not.”
  — Michael Wolff (25:20)

• On the Trump family dynamic:
  “Trump is a very simple machine. What does he want...The Nobel Peace Prize has been an obsession.”
  — Michael Wolff (30:11)

• On power and risk:
  “He is the winner out of that White House. And in that business equation of opportunity versus risk...he saw, well, I should not go into the White House. I can still have considerable power outside...”
  — Michael Wolff (40:53)

• On the unsettling nature of this “peace deal”:
  “Peace becomes a byproduct of business. Is that good? Is that bad?”
  — Michael Wolff (32:56)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:03] – Framing the central question: Is this a business deal or a peace deal?
• [09:11] – Wolff’s first impressions of Jared Kushner
• [13:41] – The value and motivation behind the Trump campaign’s voter database
• [16:00] – “Deal guys” vs “grifters” and the family logic of Gulf politics
• [22:28] – Kushner’s post-White House billions and ongoing influence
• [30:11] – Trump’s Nobel obsession and Kushner’s manipulation
• [37:52] – The physical and psychological contrast between Trump and Kushner
• [40:53] – Kushner’s calculation: maximizing power and minimizing risk after the White House
• [32:56] – Peace as a byproduct of Kushner's business goals

---

Tone and Style

• The conversation is incisive, irreverent, and at times biting—Michael Wolff is characteristically unsparing, while Joanna Coles maintains a tone of bemused skepticism.
• Despite the serious subject matter, both speakers employ dark humor (e.g., discussions of “grift” and the “blessed are the dealmakers” quip).

---

Useful for Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode is an essential listen for anyone hoping to understand the money-politics nexus of the Trump era, the peculiar relationship between Donald Trump and Jared Kushner, and the ways business interests shape American foreign policy in the Middle East. The dynamic between the host and guest keeps the tone lively, and Michael Wolff’s anecdotes and sharp takes provide context and color not typically found in news coverage.

Transcript

[Podcast Host (Ad Reader)]

Got a new puppy or kitten. Congrats. But also yikes. Between crates, beds, toys, treats and those first few vet visits, you've probably already dropped a small fortune. Which is where Lemonade pet insurance comes in. It helps you cover vet costs so that you can focus on what's best for you and your new pet. The coverage is customizable, sign up is quick and easy, and your claims are handled in as little as three seconds. Lemonade offers a package specifically for puppies and kittens. Get a'llemonade.com pet your future self will thank you. Your pet won't. They don't know what insurance is.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk. Crazy weather we're having.

[Michael Wolff]

No, it's not. It's just weather.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It is an introvert's dream. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Podcast Host (Ad Reader)]

Of $45 for 3 month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Darina (Co-founder of Quo)]

Cmnobile.com hi, I'm Darina, co founder of Quo. You might know us as openphone. My dad is a business owner and growing up he always kept his ringtone super loud so he'd never miss a customer call. That stuck with me. When we started Quo, our mission was to help businesses not just stay in touch, but make every customer feel valued no matter when they might call. Quo gives your team business phone numbers to call and text on your phone or computer. Your calls, messages and contacts live in one workspace so your team can stay fully aligned and reply faster. And with our AI agent answering 24 7, you'll really never miss a customer. Over 90,000 businesses use Quo. Get 20% [e-mail] business that's Q U O.com business and we can port your existing numbers over for free. Quo. No missed calls, no missed customers.

[Joanna]

Michael, is this a business deal or is it actually a peace deal?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I can tell you how this went down. It basically began with the Qataris, who Jared is close to and understand the context of this, that at this point in the world, the greatest pool of free cash flow is in the Persian Gulf. Everybody is in the Persian Gulf. Are you raising money? You go to the Persian Gulf. Are you starting a business? You go to the Persian Gulf. Put the emphasis on following the money.

[Joanna]

So, Michael, Joanna, we're going inside Trump's head to figure out what is being triggered in there after the news that he didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Michael Wolff]

And what we're going to get to inside Trump's head is his son in law, Jared Kushner, who is one of the elements of Trump's political identity and who is in some sense always in Trump's head.

[Joanna]

Interesting. The, the son in law always in the father in law's head and who might, along with your friend Steve Witkoff, who you have been withering about. It's possible that Jared and Steve Witkoff, two real estate dudes from Manhattan, might end up getting next year's Nobel Peace Prize.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, actually, Jared is from New Jersey, which figures into this. But let's go back to Trump being snubbed for the Peace Prize, which is elemental to the story, to the unfolding story in the Middle east right now. And not only has Trump been snubbed by the Peace Prize Committee, he's been rebuked. The fact that the Nobel Peace Prize has gone to Maria Machada, isis, giving it to someone who really represents the absolute polar opposite of Donald Trump. I mean, she is, I think the language that the, that the Peace Prize committee used is that she represents the flame of democracy amid a world of growing darkness. And that would pointedly be Donald Trump is the darkness. And, you know, I mean, it's kind of, kind of extraordinary that she is this campaigner for democracy in Venezuela. ISIS might in any world have been considered up against Donald Trump, the man who has defied his own courts, sent troops into his own cities, undermined his own free elections.

[Joanna]

And in fact, been blowing up boats from Venezuela.

[Michael Wolff]

Indeed. So in what world could it have been that Donald Trump believed that he actually might have gottenactually was destined to get the Nobel Peace Prize Now? And let's step back. I mean, he absolutelythere was, on his part an absolute belief that he would get the Nobel Peace Prize. He was, as recently as somewhat more than 24 hours ago, telling people that he was a lock on the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Joanna]

He was telling people that less than 24 hours ago.

[Michael Wolff]

Indeed he was. And I think in his world, in his reality, this made perfect sense. It actually made perfect sense to lots and lots of people. He had brought peace, or at least a moment of peace and maybe a meaningful moment of peace to an intractable situation, the situation between, between Israel and Gaza, which is the point at which I think we should segue into Donald Trump's head via Jared Kushner.

[Joanna]

I totally think we should, but I will say that this morning, we're recording this on Friday afternoon before Donald Trump gives another press conference at 5 o'.

[Michael Wolff]

Clock.

[Joanna]

So I should just point that out. But he woke up this morning and promptly started reposting all sorts of posts that other people have put out saying Donald Trump was a man of peace. As, in fact, MSNBC is reporting that they're about to charge John Bolton, his former national security adviser, and try and get him into trouble alongside Letitia James. Alongside. Who's the other person they're charging? Oh, James Comey, former head of the FBI. Yes.

[Michael Wolff]

So on top of everything else, this is interesting, flying exactly in the face of democracy for which Maria Rashada got this award. He's jailing his opponents or trying to.

[Joanna]

Exactly. All right, so inside Trump's head, we are stomping around with our galoshes and we run into none other than Jared Kushner. Jared Kushner, who was satisfied right next to. On Bibi Netanyahu's left at the. When Bibi Netanyahu was addressing the Israeli Parliament and who I think many people thought had disappeared, because, in effect, he has disappeared in that he was very present during Trump 1 and then made it very clear he wasn't going to be part of Trump 2. So can you take us back?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, because I know Jared and have spent some amount of time with him. And, you know, I actually first met Jared on the campaign trail, and.

[Joanna]

I thought you were going to tell me you knew Jared when he was the. When he purchased the New York observer, which was that pink, very funny newspaper that was part of New York life at one point, certainly when I arrived.

[Michael Wolff]

And Peter Katz, mischievous editor, know him? I mean, he was just the kind of. There was. There was. He was not a person you would have any interest in getting to know at that time. I mean, he was, you know, a lightweight. Just, you know, a rich guy who had way overpaid for this newspaper. I think, as I recall, he bought it for $11 million, which was approximately $11 million more than it was worth. I knew the editor of the paper at that time, a man by the name of Peter Kaplan. And so the only thing I knew about Jared Kushner was what Peter said, and Peter was spread it all over town that he was one of the great lightweight Jared Kushner of all time.

[Joanna]

Well, he's not quite.

[Michael Wolff]

This was.

[Joanna]

He's not as lightweight now. I mean, perhaps hard to predict what would happen.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, No, I think that's one of the Interesting developments. But Jared, who married Ivanka and then had the job in the campaign, the kind of interesting job of the family monitor of Donald Trump. I mean, the family believed, I mean, Donald Trump was running for president. This was ridiculous. And they had as best they could to protect the, the family brand.

[Joanna]

And wasn't he also thought of as the digital genius, that this was 2016, it was the sort of peak Facebook moment for campaigns. And Jared was someone who understood this in a way that other people around Donald Trump and Donald Trump didn't quite understand.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I'm not sure that that was true and that certainly was not true at the point, point in the campaign when nobody thought that they were, that this was a real campaign. I mean, this was just the publicity exercise on Donald Trump's part and the family was just trying to somewhat limit his, the embarrassing lengths that he would go to, to attract publicity.

[Joanna]

Right? Oh goodness. Oh goodness.

[Michael Wolff]

And then later when they actually preposterously and certainly unexpectedly got the Nomin nomination. And yes, Jared was one of the people who were, seemed to have someor, at least claimed to have some expertise or knew who to call to mount a hurried digital operation. Now, Steve Bannon was involved in the campaign and Steve Bannon at that time would have said that Jared was, knew nothing about anything. But in fact, what Jared was doing was assembling a list, a list that curiously in this political list which would be very valuable, in which Jared himself would come to have an ownership stake in. Which leads to another theme of the, of the Trump.

[Joanna]

Hold on a minute. What do you mean by list?

[Michael Wolff]

A list of what politics is founded on. Basically, politics is founded on having a list. Your strength as a politician is about the strength of your list.

[Joanna]

Do you mean list of voters or.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, yeah, list of voters. Ok, list of voters, list of people who are, who are guaranteed to support you, likely to support you, all of those, those things. So you're looking to make, to make a reach out, efficient. One of the things you don't want to do is campaign to people who are never going to support you, for instance. So at any rate, they developed this list and the list actually becomes incredibly valuable, not only to Trump, but commercially valuable. Think of, you know, all the money they've made selling those hats, just as a for instance. But and this is extend this theme, Jared really represents the idea that governing should work for the people who are doing the governing as well as the governed. So all along that theme of, of Trump trying to profit from the presidency, of the people around Trump trying to Profit from the presidency in very, not just direct ways, but without much pretense otherwise. And Jared came to represent this.

[Joanna]

What.

[Michael Wolff]

Would be the word, certainly this impulse, this, this theme of the President's, of the Trump, of the Trump Trump years. The grift.

[Joanna]

The grift or the opportunism? I mean, because what's so fascinating about looking at this deal and then understanding what Jared has been doing since he left after Trump won is just this sense of, and he keeps talking about him and Steve Witkoff being deal guys that it's all very well having.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, that came out of a, out of a New York Times story today. And it's always very interesting. Jared is, who was one of the great leakers in the first administration is Ahas turned himself into a kind of, a kind of favorite of the press because he'sespecially the New York Times seems always to have a soft spot for Jared Kushner.

[Joanna]

Well, it's hard not to have a soft spot for the son in law of Donald Trump. But I'm fascinated by the way they present themselves or Steve Witkoff and Jared present themselves as deal guys, sort of saying, you know, the previous lot have tried to do this, which is a totally fair point. Why would we try and do, why would we try and pursue peace in the Middle east using the traditional diplomatic channels? Because that hasn't worked. We are deal guys. We get to yes first and then we think about all the details after.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, I would, I would look at this. Yes, you can say deal guys. You can use that language or you could say, these are grifters.

[Joanna]

Well, I'm using their language.

[Michael Wolff]

Right, I know, I know that. But, but even, even to understand, let's, I mean, what deal guys and grifters have in common is recognize, it's following the money. And Jared recognizes, and I think in a way that a lot of traditional diplomats and political figures might not, that everything in the region is dictated by money. The Saudis, what is their motivation in the end? Money. The Qataris, what's their motivation? Money. The Emiratis, what's their motivation? Money. Not the Palestinians. That is not their motivation. Antipathy to Israel, that is not their motivation. Their motivation is money. Show me the money. And Jared has been incredibly good at speaking exactly to that. And on top of that, their idea of the money and who has the money and how you exchange the money is always a family thing. They are more comfortable dealing with families because that's what they're used to and that's what they deal with their own families than they are in a free, let's call it just a simple free market world.

[Joanna]

Now that's fascinating to think about. The families and the tribes of the Middle east and then the Kushner tribe and the Trump tribe. And of course Jared's father, Charles Kushner got a pardon from Donald Trump and is now the US Ambassador to Paris. I mean, when Jared was growing up, he was going to see his father in jail at the weekends.

[Michael Wolff]

Joanna, I think we have to stop for an ad or two. This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. Can a home security system really call itself effective if it only responds once an intruder has broken into your home? SimpliSafe has set itself apart by stopping crime before it starts. Using AI powered cameras working to spot trouble the moment it appears live, agents step in instantly warning intruders and calling the police. I've signed up for SimpliSafe home protection so I can afford real peace of mind the next time I go on vacation. No contracts, no hidden fees and a 60 day money back guarantee. Right now get 50% off a new home security [e-mail] DailyBeast that's simplisafe.com DailyBeast Proper security means protecting your home before crime starts.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk. Crazy weather we're having.

[Michael Wolff]

No, it's not.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Podcast Host (Ad Reader)]

Of $45 per three month plan, $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. Cmintmobile.com got a new puppy or kitten. Congrats. But also yikes. Between crates, beds, toys, treats and those first few vet visits, you've probably already dropped a small fortune. Which is where Lemonade Pet Insurance comes in. It helps you cover vet costs so that you can focus on what's best for you and your new pet. The coverage is customizable, sign up is quick and easy, and your claims are handled in as little as 3 seconds. Pro Lemonade offers a package specifically for puppies and kittens. Get a'llemonade.com pet your future self will thank you. Your pet won't. They don't know what insurance is.

[Podcast Announcer]

Listen to this acast show ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joanna]

And we're back from our sponsors to discuss more about Donald Trump's son in law, Jared Kushner.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And remember. So his father went to jail for setting up a, I think his brother in law with a prostitute. And then he went to jail and at that point, actually, then Jared took over the business as a, as a.

[Joanna]

And Jared. And Jared has a brother called Josh Kushner, also married to a high profile model in his case. I mean, the two Kushner brothers are pretty fascinating. Both good looking, both charming. People love to be around them. They have the sort of, that they seem to have shared their.

[Michael Wolff]

No, no, no, I, I would, I would, I would, I would disagree with that. I mean, Josh, I think people, some people like to be around. Nobody likes to be around Jared.

[Joanna]

Okay, go on.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he's, he's. First thing, he's, he, he has no social presence at all.

[Joanna]

You described him in your book, I came across this, this afternoon. You described him in your book Too Famous as a quivering filament, which reminded me of a, of a filament in a light bulb that slightly, you're not quite sure if it's on or off. It's flickering. It's flickering.

[Podcast Host (Ad Reader)]

Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

No, no. And actually the times one long interruption interview I did with him, his hand shook through the whole interview. You know, he's cold, he's haughty, he's arrogant, he's entitled, he's unpleasant, he's personally unpleasant. You would not want to be with him. And nobody. And he was certainly within the first Trump White House a moment among the more, the morethe more disliked or if you will, even hated. Figures. Having said that, you also have to note that he's perhaps the only true survivor of the first Trump White House.

[Joanna]

Well, and he had a couple of near misses, didn't he? I mean, he certainly had to testify a couple of times.

[Michael Wolff]

Oh, no, no, no, no. I mean, I think it became for him a kind, kind of, a kind of, you know, risk reward situation. You know, he recognized that being in the White House could be monetized, and he has monetized it. When he got out of the White House, he's monetized this at a level we have never before seen from anyone in the White House, but also recognizing a high level of risk within the White House. They basically say he can bigfoot anyone. If Jared chooses to step in, move aside. And in fact, you know, very important to Note that Susie Wiles, who is the chief of staff, was put into that job directly and personally by Jared Kushner.

[Joanna]

So what is Jared's relationship with his father in law now?

[Michael Wolff]

You know, they've gone through some not good periods, including after the 2020 defeat, when Trump returned to Mar A Lago. He had assumed that Jared would go to Mar a Lago with him and would continue as his aide and consigliere and, and in effect, Trump's brain. But Jared very much did not want to do that first thing. He wanted to get on with the business of making money, and he wanted to get out from under the thumb of his father in law. And which I think hei don't think Jared has had any illusions about what his father in law was.

[Joanna]

And I mean, indeed, Jared's father was a Democrat, and he was assumed to be a Democrat. And I'm sure he wanted, didn't he want to. And Ivanka wanted to put January 6th as far in the rearview mirror as they possibly could.

[Michael Wolff]

No. You know, in the White House, in the first White House, they used to say, you know, when the going gets tough, Jared is nowhere to be found. And that was certainly true after the, with the claims of Trump's claims of election fraud. And then January 6, they were not there. They were like, okay, get us out of here. And in fact, they did not go to Mar a Lago. They moved to Miami enough of a distance that they were, they weren't going to be called upon on a daily basis, certainly. And Jared wanted to, you know, start the, I mean, he, he immediately or in short order recruited a couple of billion bucks from the Saudi and Saudis and put himself into business, which then became another issue in his relationship with his father in law. Jared got the money and Trump did not.

[Joanna]

That's so fascinating. So, of course, so he sets up affinity partners. He sets up affinity partners, which is his Investment Company. In January 2021. He's listed at the moment as the only owner of it. As you say, he picks up 2 billion from the Saudis, from the sovereign wealth fund, and I think another billion dollars of other investors. And he's been investing in Israeli companies, American companies, companies in Africa.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And so, and this has been, you know, kind of on, you know, on a parallel track here. Trump has himself been very attuned to, you know, keeping up with the Kushners, so to speak.

[Joanna]

So fascinating. So, Michael, is this, is this a business deal or is it actually a peace deal?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I can tell you what I hear, how this went down and it basically began with the Qataris, who, Jared is close to understand the context of this, that at this point in the world, the greatest pool of free cash flow is in the Persian Gulf. Everybody is in the Persian Gulf. Are you raising money? You go to the Persian Gulf. Are you starting a business? You go to the Persian Gulf.

[Joanna]

And it also coincides with MbS, Mohammed bin Salman modernizing Saudi Arabia. Right. This might not have happened 10 years ago, but here you have a young crown prince who is determined to modernize his country.

[Michael Wolff]

Let's not even. Yes, but again, put the emphasis on following the money. Everybody is money hungry. MBS is money hungry, MBZ is money hungry. The Qataris are money hungry. It's what it all is. And the families that run these countries remember in each instance, the, there are so many family members that they really actually do need a lot of money.

[Joanna]

So it begins with the Qataris.

[Michael Wolff]

So the Qataris basically say, and I don't know the context in which they say, but they say, you know, we will go, we will come down hard on Hamas. And remember, remember Israel attacked the Hamas negotiators, essentially the top Hamas leadership in Qatar. So they were completely freaked out about this. You know, let's. And I think they realized we got them, we got it. This is not in our interest.

[Darina (Co-founder of Quo)]

So.

[Michael Wolff]

It'S essentially, we will come down hard on Hamas. They say to Donald Trump's son in law, if the President of the United States will come down hard on Bibi Netanyahu. And so that has. Now, Trump has not come down hard on Bibi for the past, since he's, since he's been in office, essentially Bibi has had a free rein to continue this awful carnage with Trump at best, looking the other way. So suddenly though, he comes down hard on Bibi and he comes down hard on Bibi, not least of all. And Jared is good at this. He knows how to play his father in law. He comes down hard on BIBI in this 11th hour bid to win the Nobel Peace Prize, Amy.

[Joanna]

So that really was a driving force behind this?

[Michael Wolff]

Completely. You know, Trump is, you know, it's always very important to get inside Trump's head and realize that what he wants is usually very specific. He wants something for himself.

[Joanna]

So he doesn't want peace, he wants a peace.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly, exactly.

[Joanna]

And, well, I shouldn't be laughing because there's so much at stake, but it's so, it's so odd.

[Michael Wolff]

It's just so odd or it's not odd, it's. It's Very, it's very clear. Trump is very readable. Trump is a very simple machine. What does he want and not he not, not want in a global sense. What does he want in a specific sense? And the Nobel Peace Prize has been an obsession. I mean, he will not feel complete until he gets the Nobel Peace Prize. How can he get the Nobel Peace Prize? Well, by bringing peace to the Middle east, by solving the Gaza, the Gaza situation. Now, now, of course, he could have done that any time since last January when he became, when he became the President of the United States. But he does it now because for a very specific goal, the Nobel Peace Prize, which he did not get, the world has some justice in it, we should note.

[Joanna]

Well, he might, I mean, and then he might go through the humiliation of watching his son in law and his former golfing buddy Steve Witkoff pick it up next.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, I'm going to have some faith. I mean, the Nobel Peace Prize has been awarded to some actually quite horrible people in the past. But I mean, I think this is, again, this is an exercise and this is what we do here in trying to understand what is in Trump's head. And the ideaand it seemed weird to me that actually at this point in time, for no apparent reason, peace was in Trump' stump's head. But it makes perfect sense that the Peace Prize was in Trump's head and that his son in law is quite clever, at least when it comes to his father in law. Son in law knew this and basically went to him and said, you can get the Peace Prize if you just come down hard on Bibi and force a deal.

[Joanna]

And then what's going on in Jared's head is contracts, deals, money.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, Jared, I mean, Jared's business is basically based in that part of the, part of the world.

[Joanna]

And Michael, is there any way that actually Jared is doing this because he believes in peace? Because he really craves peace in the Middle East. He tried to get it during the.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, I think he was part.

[Joanna]

Of the Abraham Accords, which did make a difference in the region.

[Michael Wolff]

He craves, he craves influence in the Middle East. He craves business opportunities in the Middle East. He craves, you know, further deeper relationships with the powerful people in the Middle east, all of which is helped by peace. So peace becomes a byproduct of business. Is that good? Is that bad?

[Joanna]

Well, it's better than not having peace, right? It's better than what has been going on.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I think that that's true. Yeah. But we should not have illusions about this he has acted out of his own self interest. And is that bad?

[Joanna]

Well, perhaps his self interest is also a bigger interest. Two things can exist at the same time. So he has business interests in bringing peace, but we all have interest in peace in the Middle East.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I mean this is on that hand, this is a positive development. I mean, obviously it's a positive development. It will enable Jared, however, to accomplish things that we would think are highly less than positive. I mean, he will grease his own pocket. I mean, this isso. I mean, what we have in the broader context is peace. But peace brought to us byfor reasons that we don't understand, by powers that we can't control. And in a world that is going to make people, individuals vastly richer because of this. And then again you come, well, is that bad? Would you rather have peace? Would you rather have an equitable world or peace? And I think for the moment, people would certainly choose peace.

[Joanna]

Blessed are the deal makers.

[Michael Wolff]

It is that time again. And to our sponsors.

[Podcast Host (Ad Reader)]

If you're an experienced pet owner, you already know that having a pet is 25% belly rubs, 25% yelling drop it. And 50% groaning at the bill from every vet visit. Which is why Lemonade Pet insurance is tailor made for your pet and can save you up to 90% on vet bills. It can help cover checkups, emergencies, diagnostics, basically all the stuff that makes your bank account nervous. Claims are filed super easily through the Lemonade app and half get settled instantly. Get a'@lemonade.com pet and they'll help cover the vet bill for whatever your pet swallowed after you yelled drop it.

[Podcast Announcer]

Old school security kicks in after the break in. Too late. SimpliSafe rewinds the story. Stopping crime before it starts. Active Guard Outdoor Protection uses AI powered cameras to detect intruders, alert live monitoring agents, and can deter intruders before they reach your door. It's proactive protection plus a 60 day money back guarantee and no contracts. To get 50% off your new system, go to SimpliSafe.com podcast. That's SimpliSafe.com podcast. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it.

[Podcast Announcer]

Are you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront.

[Podcast Host (Ad Reader)]

Payment of $45 for three month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint mobile.com.

[Podcast Announcer]

Hey prime members, you can listen to this show ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app. Today.

[Joanna]

Michael Wolff and I are back firmly inside Trump's head. Okay, Michael, we will be watching the President this weekend as he takes a victory lap around the Middle east with his son in law, presumably. Have you been in the room with the two of them together? Because I'm struck by their physical differences.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I have. No, I was knocked over by it and this was the first time on the campaign, it was in Trump's house in Beverly Hills and we were all sitting together and Trump is this just. Is thisi mean, I mean, I think people don't realize what a dominating physical presence. He is. Scary. I mean you literally step back from him and he moves in a hulking way. And he is large. This isn't just a 6 foot 2 or 3 man. This is an exceptionally large, you know, I would guess a 300 pound plus 6 foot 2 man. And Jared is a 98 pound weakling in the classic sense. I mean, he's reed thin without, you know, he's fairly tall, not as tall as his father in law, but reed thin. And he kind of pulls himself together. I mean pulls, you know, retreats. You can see him physically retreat against the presence of his, of his father in law.

[Joanna]

I've seen him with Ivanka where she's the centre of attention and he almost becomes a negative space. He sort of withdraws into himself was my observation. Perhaps he does that with his father in law too?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, with other people too. I mean, I was once with Steve Bannon in, in the White House and we were talking and then, and Jared clearly wondering what was going on and what we were talking about and he kind of, kind of sort of shimmied into the, into the room and sort of waited for an invitation to join the conversation which Bannon did not give him. So he was left there awkwardly standing and then finally he just decided to seize the day and he sat down and then Bannon completely ignored him, ignored him to the point where he obviously washe didn't know what he was doing there and probably had even stopped listening. And at that point Bannon engaged him. Do you think that's true, Jared? Did you get that? What's your feeling, Jared? I mean, just that kind of schoolboy caught by the teacher but was a pleasant bunch in that White House.

[Joanna]

Well, I was going to say, but turns out that Jared had much more staying power than Steve Bannon. It was Steve Bannon who went remarkable.

[Michael Wolff]

He is the winner out of that White House. And he understood. He understood all of the reasons not to go back into the White House. So in that business equation of opportunity versus risk and you know, which is the ultimate business equation, and then the question is how to maximize opportunity and minimize risk, he saw, well, I should not go into the White House. I can still have considerable power outside of the White Housereally as much power as he wants to have. And to really limit the risks he was going to, he would have to take. And then to maximize the money, the money he is going to get.

[Joanna]

Right. Well, fascinating to see what falls out over the weekend. We haven't yet gotten around to talking about Melania's remarkable press conference today, where it turned out she's been talking to President Putin about returning Ukrainian children. We're going to talk more about Melania and why she's suddenly on the scene on Tuesday. And until then, well, we'll be keeping close watch on whatever comes out of the White House. Michael, have a good weekend. Do you want to. Do you want to remind people to subscribe to Apocalypse?

[Michael Wolff]

Please subscribe to the podcast. I don't exactly know how to do.

[Joanna]

That, but you just press the button that says subscribe.

[Michael Wolff]

That's it.

[Joanna]

You press the button that says subscribe. Please.

[Michael Wolff]

Please. There's a button that says subscribe, and all you have to do is press.

[Joanna]

It and you can tell me, leave reviews for us on Apple and Spotify. Wherever you get your podcast comments on YouTube, please.

[Michael Wolff]

Are they reviewing us or. Or commenting entering into a discussion with us? Two different things.

[Joanna]

Interesting. On Apple and Spotify. Well, on Spotify, you can leave comments. On Apple, I think you review us. And on YouTube you can enter into what are really frequently extremely interesting conversations that people join in all sorts of threads of conversations.

[Michael Wolff]

How are our reviews on Apple?

[Joanna]

I don't know. I haven't looked, actually. I will go on this weekend and look. I will go on this weekend and look. I'm a bit more familiar with YouTube.

[Michael Wolff]

But I always believe that the best policy with reviews is not to read them.

[Joanna]

Well, I would agree with you, but these aren't reviews. Anyway, it's been a momentous week for James Comey, possibly for John Bolton and for peace in the Middle east, and.

[Michael Wolff]

Letitia James, which I don't think we've mentioned that we haven't covered that incredibly egregious move. Another incredibly egregious move on the part of Donald Trump and his. What would we call her handmaiden, Lindsey Halligan. You know, and I think we should spend a little more time on the fact that she has become this, this complete non entity.

[Joanna]

Well, she was a complete non entity, but now she's become an entity, hasn't she's? This is her moment.

[Michael Wolff]

She's pivotal to the destruction of democracy in America. I'm sure her high school classmates would not have voted her pivotal to the destruction of democracy. Democracy in America. Right.

[Joanna]

But they would have, they would have, I think, said best hair.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, there's a lot of competition within the Trump circle on best hair.

[Joanna]

I think she would have had the best hair at high school and she has a lot of competition. Melania's hair looks splendid today at her unexpected press conference. As we know. Margot Martin, fabulous hair. Natalie Harp, fabulous hair. Hope Hicks, who probably had the best hair of all.

[Michael Wolff]

Are the best.

[Joanna]

Is is not around any longer, but it is the. And then of course, Donald Trump's hair.

[Michael Wolff]

Donald Trump's own hair always begins and ends with Donald Trump's hair.

[Joanna]

Indeed it does, Michael. Onwards until Tuesday. Onwards until Tuesday. Don't forget to be beast. And a shout out to our two top tier Beebeast members, Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hodel and Free dc. And thank you to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna von Erthen and our editor, Jesse Millwood.

[Podcast Announcer]

And now a next level moment from ATT Business. Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows and they need to be there in time for International Sleep day. You've got AT and T5G so you're fully confident, but the vendor isn't responding. And International Sleep Day is tomorrow. Luckily, AT&T 5G lets you deal with any issues with ease. So the pillows will get delivered and everyone can sleep soundly, especially you. AT&T 5G requires a compatible plan and device coverage not available everywhere. Learn [e-mail] 5G Network.

[Michael Wolff]

From the Cascades to PDX to your kitchen, we recycle like we live here. That's why governments, brands and recycling companies are all joining together to be bring change to make recycling better. As in trusting that your recyclables end.

[Darina (Co-founder of Quo)]

Up in the right places to be.

[Michael Wolff]

Made into new things and having brands help fund the cost of recycling. You can find the Latest [e-mail] Oregon. From Mount Hood to the bin under your desk together we can do this.

[Podcast Announcer]

Hey prime members, you can listen to this show ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today.

[Michael Wolff]

Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily Beast [e-mail] podcasts if you enjoyed this.

[Podcast Host (Ad Reader)]

Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast.com membership podcast and sign up today.