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- [00:01]
Bloomberg Announcer
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- [00:28]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [00:46]
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- [00:49]
Joanna Coles
month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes
- [00:55]
Mary Trump
and fees, extra fee full terms@mintmobile.com this is probably the first time in Donald's life there are no solutions and he is bumping up against the limits of his quite extensive ability to change the narrative and to change the subject. The knock on effects are going to be with us for a very long time. One of Donald's father favorite myths about himself is being exposed for the nonsense it is. He is not a great deal maker. In fact he doesn't know what he's doing at all. We're at a perfect storm of horrors for Donald.
- [01:40]
Joanna Coles
I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast and on Sunday it will be one week to go from Donald Trump's 80th birthday. So who better to have on than Mary Trump, his niece and a fully trained super acclaimed clinical psychologist who analyzes her uncle Sina Quanon like nobody else. I always love having Mary Trump on the show because she's the bravest of relatives of Donald Trump. She is fearless in her criticism of him and she well she reflects on how so much of what he's doing now reminds her of her grandfather, Donald's father father as he began to lose his grip on, well, on sanity. And she has her own plans of how she is going to celebrate his 80th birthday. So don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast. We are independent media and we are trying to get to 700,000 subscribers in the next couple of weeks. So please press the subscription button if you haven't done. But for now let's get into it with Mary Trump. Mary Trump, welcome back to the Daily Beast Podcast. You are a very popular guest for those who don't know, Mary. Mary, how could you not know Mary Trump? Mary Trump is the outspoken niece of Donald Trump. She's also a hugely acclaimed clinical psychologist, and she is the perfect person to talk to in the week of Donald Trump's 80th birthday. Mary, you're in a unique position as a clinical psychologist and as the niece of the president to tell us how you think this last couple of weeks where he's really begun to get pushback from his own party finally, after 10 years, is going to impact him. So we saw the decision to abandon the $1.8 billion slush fund, and we saw a judge say that it was essential that he take his name off the Kennedy center so it'll no longer be the Donald J. Trump and jfk John F. Kennedy Kennedy Center. And we have seen pushback from Congress about his war in Iran. Now, we know the president doesn't like being told no. How is this going to play out with him?
- [04:17]
Mary Trump
Well, first of all, Jordan, it's great to be here. I love hanging out with you at the Daily Beast. And yeah, we have a lot to talk about because as you mentioned, we have so much.
- [04:25]
Joanna Coles
I mean, we always do, but we do.
- [04:29]
Mary Trump
It definitely feels like we're entering a singularity and things are unfolding, unraveling at a more alarming rate and particularly for Donald. So a couple of things. First of all, I think that this whole idea of Donald chickening out Taco is kind of a misinterpretation, because Donald has always been somebody who pushes the envelope to see what he can get away with. And if he gets away with it, he pushes it more and gets away with more. And that has been the vast majority. But there also been times when he hasn't been able to get away with something or something he's proposed hasn't gone over well. And then he just pretends it never happened. So I think that's just more of the same. And I don't believe that the pushback he's getting is going to change his behavior. He's just going to regroup and do what he's done in the past. Either pretend that it's something that he never wanted or that he never talked about or find a way to get what he wants. This slush fund is not going anywhere. It will rear its ugly head again, and he probably is finding ways to get his name back on the Kennedy center for all we know. Or he will just pretend that he doesn't care and that the Kennedy center can just go to Hell, because it doesn't deserve him, or something like that. So he's going to engage in a lot of ego saving moves or just come up with different strategies to get what he wants anyway. Of more concern is, for him anyway, is that he does find himself in completely uncharted territory. I don't know that there's any equivalent to this in Donald's life, except maybe in the 90s when he was forced to declare all those bankruptcies. The difference between then and now, even though the humiliation was very public, is that there's nobody to bail him out of this other mess of his own making. And now it would be the unconstitutional war of choice against Iran, the tanking economy, unemployment rising, et cetera. In the 90s he had the banks who were invested in making sure that he could pretend that his brand actually meant something. Now, I don't believe that even the Republican Party or the corrupt, illegitimate supermajority of the Supreme Court could get him out of this, because things have been set in motion that none of them has any control over. And as we're seeing, and I'm sure we'll talk about this at greater length, Donald is losing control, not only over of the narrative, which I don't believe is something that's ever happened before, he's losing control of himself.
- [07:23]
Joanna Coles
Oh, interesting. I want to come back to the war. But when you say he's losing control of himself, what are you observing?
- [07:30]
Mary Trump
This is a man who cannot seem to stay awake even during very public events in the middle of the day. His impulse control, to the extent he ever had any, is deteriorating. He's lashing out in ways that are self destructive and very ill advised. And he is perseverating, like he's just repeating these nonsensical things. And you know, like his new shiny object is this portmanteau he's created. Dumb a crat, because nobody knew that the word dumb ended in a B. He's very proud of this, but by going on and on about it, he. I know, I'm sorry, I'm breaking news here. He's just revealing himself to be an increasingly immature, petty fool, quite frankly.
- [08:32]
Joanna Coles
One thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is how easy it is to go through life just assuming everything is fine until something isn't. I feel like so many doctor visits end the same way. Everything looks fine. Drink more water. See you next year. Meanwhile, I'm left wondering, am I getting enough nutrients? How's my metabolism? What should I actually be focusing on? That's why I'm excited about Superpower. Superpower takes a completely different approach. They send a licensed professional to your home, or you can visit a nearby lab and you get testing across more than a hundred biomarkers. Then everything shows up in one app with insights into your heart, health, hormones, metabolism, vitamins, minerals, biological age, and more. What I love is that it doesn't just give you data. It gives you an actionable plan and tracks your progress over time so you're not starting from scratch every year. Make this the year you stop guessing about your health. With Superpower. For a limited time, our listeners get $20 off to unlock their new health intelligence. Head over to superpower.com and use code Daily Beast for $20 off your membership. That's code Daily Beast. And after you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about Superpower. So do us a favor and tell them the Daily Beast sent you. It's so interesting hearing you clarify this. Let's just go back to the war for a moment because I completely take your point about when things don't go his way, he chooses to pivot, ignore them, pretend he never wanted them anyway. To your point, the problem with starting a war that he thought clearly we could get out of after a weekend is that the war has all these ripple effects around the world. There's the choke point of the Strait of Hormuz. There's the struggle now for countries around the world to get enough fuel to power jets, to power heating in people's homes, to run their economies. There are, I think, 1700 tankers at this point stuck in the Gulf. They can't get out. And if they do eventually get out, it's going to take months. So there's a ripple effect in terms of prices. We know that he famously avoided going to Vietnam by claiming he had bone spurs and he took five deferments. But this is a war that's not going to be measured in body bags. It's going to be measured in prices at the gas pump. How does he figure this out, Mary? Because he's, as you say, he's started a chain of events that he now has zero control over. And it appears as if the arrangement have got the better of him.
- [11:29]
Mary Trump
Yeah, Joanna, it's absolutely stunning what a debacle this is. And it is entirely his responsibility. He can't. I mean, he will blame other people, but nobody is going to fall for that because he didn't ask for the permission of Congress. He didn't ask for the permission of our allies. He didn't actually sell it to the American people. He came up with at least a dozen rationales for starting the war, many of which were self contradictory. So I think this whole exercise lays bare a danger I believe you and I have spoken about before. It's one thing for America to have made the egregious decision to put somebody as unqualified, corrupt and unqualified as he is in charge of this country and be faced with the rebuilding of our own institutions. It's another thing entirely to, to unleash him on the rest of the planet. Because just as he can't control what's happening in Iran now we as a country can't control how the rest of the world perceives us and how the rest of the world is going to treat us in the future, even if sane people get in charge again. So this is probably the first time in Donald's life there are no solutions and he is bumping up against limits of his quite extensive ability to change the narrative and to change the subject. That's just not happening because as you mentioned, the consequences of this just gobsmackingly stupid idea to going to Iran as if it would be like Venezuela and we'd be in and out and accomplish whatever it was, you know, thought he was accomplishing. The knock on effects are going to be with us for a very long time. And right now what we're looking at is a world in which gas prices are increasing. That's going to cause all sorts of problems for other countries around the world. It's obviously causing problems here at home. The American people are more interested in their economic stability than any other issue. So they understand how bad this is. Donald and his people can lie all they want about the health of the economy. It's given the lie every day. As gas prices go up, inflation goes up and other associated prices go up. The other thing that will become glaringly obvious to anybody paying attention is that he went into this against all advice and is going and we are going to end up in a place where America is, is considerably weaker and Iran is considerably stronger and Iran is holding all of the cards right now. So one of Donald's favorite myths about himself is being exposed for the nonsense it is. He is not a great deal maker. In fact, he doesn't know what he's doing at all.
- [14:40]
Joanna Coles
What a frightening analysis. So to go back to your point about him losing control of himself, that he's clearly frenziedly posting on Truth Social during the night, what is that a symptom of? Mary, I know that as people get older, they sometimes sleep less. But the number of tweets or posts, which has now gone up to 27 a day on average by our accounting from May's number of posts. If you had a client who was doing this, what would it say to you about them?
- [15:23]
Mary Trump
It would say that there are some very serious issues around insecurity and control. Donald is somebody who clearly has way too much time on his. And he doesn't have enough time to go to his son's wedding, obviously, but he has way too much time in his hands and he has his priorities all wrong. And this is a deeply misguided and unhealthy attempt to gain some sense of agency, which he doesn't have. And the way I look at Donald is that to one degree or other, partially back in the day, because of my grandfather's wealth and power and connections, and then because he's been living in the White House or at Mar a Lago for the last, over the last decade, he's essentially been institutionalized, which is to say that he doesn't have to worry about the things the rest of us have to worry about. There's always somebody else to take care of him, to do his bidding, to clean up his messes. And as I said earlier, that can't happen anymore and it isn't working. And on some level he's aware, and I think this is where his desperation comes in, that the project he has expended most of his psychic energy perpetuating since at least the 70s, if not earlier, to protect himself from his own incompetence, to protect himself from the truth that he is a loser and that he's unlovable is failing. Just as the project to convince other people that he's something he's not is also failing. He's absolutely dependent upon the perpetuation of those myths that my grandfather started, that Donald is somehow a brilliant, self made businessman and entrepreneur. And you know, people like me who grew up in New York know that that has always been false. But there are tens of millions of people who still apparently haven't caught on, but they're starting to.
- [17:43]
Joanna Coles
Well, and tens of millions of people who saw him pretending to be a great deal maker on the Apprentice. And so the sort of impact on television is considerable, of television obvious, is considerable and has contributed to him being elected not once, but twice.
- [18:01]
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- [18:23]
Mary Trump
So good you'll want to leave a voicemail about it. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.
- [18:30]
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- [18:59]
Joanna Coles
you mentioned your grandfather, and on previous episodes you've talked about recognizing in Donald Trump's eyes an expression that you saw in your grandfather as he was beginning to fail, sort of mentally fail, which can frequently be a genetic, you know, dementia, Alzheimer's, whatever is, has a large genetic component. Do you think that Donald Trump's sort of sleeplessness, his frenzied posting, his sleeping during the day, so the sort of night becomes the day, the day becomes the night. Is that part of something that you think your grandfather was also suffering from?
- [19:50]
Mary Trump
Yeah, I think we're at a perfect storm of horrors for Donald because, yes, we've got serious and obvious cognitive decline. I don't know about you, but I have never taken four annual cognitive assessments in one year. So that's a red flag. We know that there are serious physical ailments that the White House, of course, is not addressing. And the cognitive decline is obvious to anybody who's an objective observer. On top of that, we have the stressors we mentioned earlier, his inability to control the narrative, his understanding, on some level anyway, that a lot of things are out of his control, he's losing control over his body. And then again, the thing that we cannot ever forget, the longstanding, undiagnosed, untreated psychiatric disorders that he had the first time he got into the Oval Office. So all of those things combined are creating a situation in which it gets harder, not easier, for Donald to regain his equilibrium to the extent that he can, and I don't believe he can, just as it's getting harder for his sycophants and enablers to pretend that everything's just fine, which is all they're left to do. They ignore the fact that he's falling asleep in public. They ignore the fact that he is apparently, from what I understand, having these episodes. They're ignoring his lack of impulse control that is not going to be able to continue into perpetuity. And as this goes, gets worse. There are more and more similarities between him and his father, who had very serious Alzheimer's. And my grandfather's Alzheimer's started worsening at just about the same age as Donald. But my grandfather was a much healthier physical specimen. And also as a sociopath, my grandfather didn't really have any emotional or psychological world that could impinge upon him. So Donald's already at a deficit. And that look you mentioned, it's a deer in the headlights look that says to me he doesn't always know completely where he is or who's around him. And it's very alarming.
- [22:25]
Joanna Coles
Did you see Marco Rubio in the select Committees this week when asked if he'd seen Donald Trump sleeping in any meetings, denying it. And then Ted Lieu from California immediately playing two clips of him sleeping, not least when Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State and National Security Advisor, was talking?
- [22:48]
Mary Trump
I did. That was quite a performance by Marco Rubio, who also committed perjury when he lied about the size of the shoes Donald gave him. So clearly, I mean, he wouldn't answer a question about who won the 2020 election because they can't. Telling the truth about Donald Trump is to get fired. And these people are so desperate to hang on to their proximity to power and their positions at the expense of the United States of America. And let's face it, right now, still, and this is a shocking indictment of the Republican Party, Donald Trump is still their best bet.
- [23:30]
Joanna Coles
It's a crazy indictment. So why does he keep appointing people who couldn't be less appropriate for the very important jobs he's appointing them to? So I'm thinking of Bill Pulte put in to replace Tulsi Gabbard as head of the intelligence services, a man whose experience is in mortgages and housing development and whose own family kicked him out of the family business. What is in it for Donald Trump to appoint someone like that?
- [24:06]
Mary Trump
Well, I think part of it is he likes company because he himself is the most unqualified of them all. So, you know, it's less lonely. I think, more seriously, to your point, it's about taking an iron grip of the Republican Party, remaking the party in his image and putting in positions of very real power, people who understand
- [24:41]
Joanna Coles
that
- [24:42]
Mary Trump
they're there to protect Donald, to promote his interests, and to continue to enable him or those closest to him to use the leverage of the presidency to enrich themselves and increase their power. And Donald can't do that if he has people running the State Department or the Department of Defense or DNI who actually understand what their jobs are and believe in the mission of those agencies. Quite the opposite. Donald is put into positions of power at our agencies, those who are there to destroy them, quite honestly. So I think it's just a lot of it is about consolidating his power within the party so that there will come to a point when there will be no pushback at all from these Republicans. And let's face it, the Republicans we have now are pretty awful and have shown themselves willing to debase themselves. Even those Donald didn't endorse who now are now going to be out of a job because of him, voted with him over 95% of the time. But he needs absolute, complete, unquestioning loyalty. And part of that is also because he has a very fragile ego and he can't handle opposition of any kind, even if it's the most mild opposition.
- [26:25]
Joanna Coles
Right. I'm often struck by the number of people that have gone to jail for working for him. And you just think what misplaced loyalty looks like when you end up like Peter Navarro or like Michael Cohen or like Steve Bannon having worked for him. I mean, there's a long list. So you mentioned it was lonely in terms of his, you know, his sort of incompetence in the role and him wanting to put in other people so that he feels less lonely. His wife doesn't live at the White House. His daughter is, you know, says politics is too cruel for her to be involved. Now, how. I mean, he cuts what seems like a very isolated figure. How dangerous is that isolation to someone with the. With the psychological makeup that he has?
- [27:24]
Mary Trump
It's very dangerous. And it's also in the context of being surrounded by sycophants who will do whatever he asks or tells them to do. Right. All of Donald's relationships, and we've talked about this, are transactional, and that includes with his wife and with his children. And Ivanka has stepped away not because politics is too cruel. Give me a break. It's because. Well, I guess because she thinks that she has the right to go destroy an ecosystem so she and Jared could have a private island. But the reason she stepped away is because she's not. She wasn't getting anything out of proximity to Donald Anymore. If anything, it was harming her and her so called Pratt. But even with people like his children around him, Donald is still very isolated because there's no emotional connection here. It is literally, what can you do for me? Are you. If you can do something for me, then fine. And then if I can do something for you, that's it. And even in the midst of those many people willing to do whatever he wants for them, he is still very isolated. Again, because there's no emotional component, there's no human feeling there. It's quite a devastating commentary on what the American people think is worth supporting. So all of this leads him to this point where he's going to feel like he has nothing to lose. He's a nihilist. He does not believe anyway that anything or anybody should exist beyond him. So if things start to unravel in a way that he feels that he has lost total control over, to the extent that he would even be able to recognize that he's just gonna take all of us down with him. And that includes those who have been the most loyal to him. And to those people, they remind me of chain smokers who think that they're not gonna get cancer. It's coming for them. They just have deluded themselves into believing they will be the one person Donald is going to stick with. But he doesn't have any sense of loyalty. For him, loyalty is a one way street. Everything is a zero sum game.
- [29:46]
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- [30:16]
Joanna Coles
So what did you make of the fact, and I know that you attended Donald's second wedding to Marla Maples. What did you make of the fact he didn't go to Don Jr. S wedding to the Palm beach socialite Bettina Anderson?
- [30:32]
Mary Trump
Yeah, it's all just. It's all just very odd how this is all coming together. All of these people are just creating this black hole, you know, of corruption and awfulness. As with any other authoritarian or wannabe authoritarian, one of the things that they use as a tool is humiliation. Now, in my family, that works two ways. My grandfather loved humiliating people who were weaker than he was as well, especially my dad, because he Got joy out of it. But it also, and I think this is more true of Donald, serves a purpose. The more you humiliate people, you control, and this seems like a contradiction, but the more willing they are to subjugate themselves to you. So these kinds of public humiliations are something Donald engages in frequently with others. I think also he just enjoys being cruel to people who need something else from him. And I think he's always been deeply unimpressed and probably embarrassed by Donnie's obvious need for Donald's respect and attention. I'd say love, but that just is not something operative in my family. So this was just a very public way for Donald to say, no, I don't. You are of no interest to me whatsoever. I can't go because I'm so busy playing golf.
- [32:20]
Joanna Coles
It's just. Mary, you paint a portrait of a horrifying. I mean, the idea that a father wouldn't go to his son's wedding just feels terrible.
- [32:32]
Mary Trump
It is. Now, granted, I'm not saying we should have any compassion for Donna because he's a horrible human being, he's a racist, he murders endangered species, and his anti immigrant rhetoric is despicable. But it should at least have given some people in the Magaverse pause. The Republican Party was allegedly the party of family values. Right. But when it comes to Donald, there's this incredible and. And inexplicable double standard. But the idea that people continue to support somebody who doesn't value family at all, like what he and his siblings did to me and my family, well, that's a conversation for another time. We're talking about his children, about whom he is shown to care. Not at all. I mean, he talks about them like they're his secretary's children. He doesn't really know them and he doesn't really have the time. He isn't going to give them the time of day. But that is not supposed to be something the American people value. Right. They're supposed to value human beings who care about, at the very least, their children. Right.
- [34:03]
Joanna Coles
I mean, he seems very successful in using them as appendages. I mean, one's very struck by those huge photo opportunities that he takes with them. And they look a certain way, and I'm very struck by that. And then yet, as you say, he seems to have an entirely transactional relationship with them. In the, in the Melania documentary, for example, when Melania and Donald, and they're both coming from different places, and the subtext is they're definitely not together in a way that we understand regular married couples to be together, and they don't appear to live together. That when they're talking about Baron, it doesn't really sound as if they ever talk about Barron together or if he's like, He's a very smart kid. Very smart kid. He's great. I love that boy. I love that boy. But it doesn't. Right, right. He just. Yeah, he doesn't know. So, Mary, final question. What is the symbolism of. It's 250 years for the American, you know, the American experiment, 250 years old, and your uncle is staging a UFC fight on the South Lawn of the White House. What is the symbolism of that? Why is he doing that as opposed to anything else? There are so many ways you could celebrate America, and yet he's choosing to showcase violence.
- [35:37]
Mary Trump
I think it's just a display of his id, frankly. This is somebody who cannot bear to have anybody else or anything else get attention. So he's making it about himself by doing something that, on the one hand, he likes. He likes watching other people engage in physical violence. It's very Caligula, I guess. But at the same time, I think it's a way for him further to degrade us. Because the thing about Donald is, you know, again, on very deep levels, he understands that the only way he stays in power is to keep us divided because he can't unify anybody. He's not capable of building anything worth building. On the other hand, though, is that he doesn't understand what this country is supposed to stand for or value, because to do so would be to admit that he is incapable of partaking in any of that. Celebrating our 250th anniversary of independence suggests celebrating what we've accomplished together, and he doesn't understand what that means. So I think. I don't know that this was intentional because I don't know that he's capable of thinking things through to this degree. But he could not have picked a more effective way to demonstrate to the world how far we have fallen and why and because of whom.
- [37:42]
Joanna Coles
So how will you be celebrating? Or perhaps celebrating is not the right word. How will you be noting your uncle's 80th birthday?
- [37:48]
Mary Trump
Mary Trump, great question. Next Sunday, it's June 14th. It's Donald's birthday. It's also Flag Day, but apparently, I'm sure that's not why he's doing this. I don't think it's a celebrate Flag Day. I am announcing the launch of my new pack. It's called Mary Trump's Transcend Pack. And it's going to be a pack that is the goal of which is to transcend the division, the cruelty, the lack of empathy and the anti American horrors we've been living through and do whatever we could do in the next year to eight years to put this country back on track so we can actually get beyond what has been probably the worst decade we've ever lived through.
- [38:41]
Joanna Coles
So how do you, are you planning to, you're planning to raise money? I mean, are you backing candidates? What will the money go to?
- [38:49]
Mary Trump
Candidates who demonstrate to us that they understand the moment we're living through, that they understand what's at stake and are willing to do what it takes not just to get us past this very difficult period we're living in, but are willing to put in place the kinds of reforms we so desperately need in this country. So, yeah, we're looking to support candidates up and down the ballot from the local to the federal level, as well as organizations that do really, really good work along those lines as well. So we're very excited about it. And we thought that Donald's birthday would be perfect day to announce the launch of the Transcend Pack.
- [39:32]
Joanna Coles
So it's the Transcend Pack, and if people want to find it, they're going to look for it on June 14 and beyond. Where do they find it?
- [39:41]
Mary Trump
I'll have to keep you posted because we are just putting it all into place.
- [39:45]
Joanna Coles
Okay, well, and people can follow you on YouTube where I'm sure you'll be keeping people abreast of the developments. Well, congratulations on the launch of the pack. That is news for us. Mary, you always bring such insight to the podcast. Thank you so much with your family background, of course, of having seen Donald Trump up close. And I will never forget you saying how he basically stole your sweet 16th birthday party by strolling around the room asking people if they're having a good time, as if he'd thrown it when in fact he was really nothing to do with it. That has always stuck with me. But your insight and also your clinical training to analyze what's going on really gives you such authority in the space. Many thanks for joining us. And of course, people can follow you on Mary Trump Media on your own YouTube podcast.
- [40:37]
Mary Trump
Thank you.
- [40:42]
Joanna Coles
I love Mary Trump's clinical background that allows her to analyze the president's behavior as she does and to articulate it for us with that overlay of family, family tension and knowledge and experience growing up Trump. What an experience. What an experience. Anyway, if you have been, thank you for joining us. I'll be back tomorrow with David Rothkopf to start off your week with everything that's going on. Big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support.