How Trump, 79, Is Being Exploited By His 'Friend'

Summary

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The Daily Beast Podcast

Episode: How Trump, 79, Is Being Exploited By His 'Friend'
Date: December 11, 2025
Host: Hugh Docherty (filling in for Joanna Coles)
Guest: John Bolton (Former National Security Adviser to Donald Trump)

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Hugh Docherty and John Bolton, focusing on Donald Trump’s decision-making process, his current advisers, and his relationships with foreign leaders as he approaches 80 years old. Bolton offers insider analysis on Trump’s foreign policy, the influence of Mar-a-Lago confidants, and how Trump's penchant for personal relationships impacts national security strategy. The discussion also covers Trump's dealings with Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, and the evolving U.S. stance on Venezuela and China.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump's Decision-Making Style and Foreign Policy Influences

• Lack of Strategic Process:

  • Bolton emphasizes that Trump rarely engages in a structured, rational decision-making process, often neglecting input from the National Security Council (NSC).
  • Trump relies heavily on gut instinct, or as Bolton calls it, a “Neuron Flash” rather than careful analysis.
  • [02:08] John Bolton: "The question is, is he going to make a well informed decision or is he going to do it via Neuron Flash, which is his typical style?"

• Sources of Influence:

  • Trump is notably swayed by conversations with friends and Mar-a-Lago guests, sometimes trusting their opinions more than intelligence agencies.
  • [05:23] John Bolton: "He thinks some of his interlocutors, the guests at Mar a Lago know more about things than the CIA does..."

• Transactional and Episodic Leadership:

  • Trump is described as lacking conceptual thinking, favoring personal deals and ad hoc solutions rather than consistent policies.
  • Bolton sees the recently released national security strategy as incoherent, possibly more reflective of J.D. Vance's views than Trump’s understanding.

2. The Flaws and Contradictions in Trump's National Security Strategy

• Contradictory Stances on Democracy and Sovereignty:

  • Trump’s administration claims non-interference in sovereign states, yet sharply criticizes European democracies.
  • [07:09] John Bolton: "They say we're not going to interfere in decisions of sovereign states...and then they spend paragraph after paragraph denouncing Europe for not being democratic."

• Selective Focus on Foreign Policy Hotspots:

  • Topics such as invading Canada, the “invasion” of Greenland, and current preoccupation with Venezuela right now are mentioned as reflective of Trump’s short attention span.

3. Venezuela: Lack of Strategy and Planning

• Disorganized NSC and Undefined Objectives:

  • The administration’s approach to Venezuela is marked by confusion about its real objectives—whether it's regime change, fighting drug trafficking, or other goals.
  • [09:16] John Bolton: “I don't think there has been a careful formulation of what the objectives are...In Trump's brain, I think they're all kind of mushed together.”

• Military Decisions Without Clear Purpose:

  • Moving the Gerald R. Ford carrier strike group is highlighted as an example of "cart before the horse" policymaking.

• The Risk of Failure without Planning:

  • Bolton supports ousting Maduro but stresses success would require significant preparation, which he doesn't see happening.

4. The Personalization of Foreign Policy

• Trump’s Perspective:

  • Sees international relations as governed by his personal relationships with world leaders, rather than institutional state-to-state logic.
  • [12:41] John Bolton: “He thinks relations between states are a function of the relations between their leaders...That's not how it works internationally.”

• Manipulation by Foreign Leaders:

  • Leaders like Putin and Xi exploit Trump’s vanity and focus on personal rapport.
  • [18:02] John Bolton: “Putin, going back to the first term, used his KGB training to figure out how to manipulate Trump. Foreign leaders have figured it out too…assessing your target's vulnerabilities and then exploiting them.”

5. Trump, Putin, and Ukraine

• Erratic Shifts in Allegiances:

  • Trump oscillates between supporting and withdrawing support from leaders like Zelensky based on these personal dynamics, creating strategic unpredictability.
  • Bolton doubts Trump’s followers are witnessing "3D chess"—it’s more like tactical, moment-by-moment reactions.
  • [18:02] John Bolton: "He's barely doing this one move at a time."

• Risk to National Security:

  • Trump is preoccupied with his legacy—e.g., winning a Nobel Prize—instead of national interests.
  • [19:13] John Bolton: “He doesn't care what it says. He doesn't care what the terms are. He just wants to be able to say, I made a deal...He’s not making decisions on the basis of what's in America's national security interest.”

• Global Ramifications:

  • How the West responds to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine influences Chinese and other actors’ strategies worldwide.

6. Trump and Xi Jinping: The Trade Deal Obsession

• Xi's Advantages:

  • Xi believes he can manipulate Trump, especially when Trump's desperate for a big trade deal ahead of visits to China.
  • Trump’s concessions, such as allowing Nvidia chip sales and making ambiguous statements about Taiwan, are seen as tactical giveaways.
  • [23:32] Bolton on China’s confidence: “Coming into 2026, I think Xi Jinping thinks that he is pretty well placed to deal with Trump.”

• China's Narrative of Stability:

  • China positions itself as a “rock of stability” contrasting messy American politics, which is increasingly attractive globally.

7. The 'Yes Men' Culture in Trump’s Inner Circle

• Reduction in Dissent:

  • Bolton says Trump has surrounded himself with compliant advisers, learning from his frustration with those who disagreed with him in the first term.
  • [29:11] John Bolton: “He's tried to get people who will simply salute and say, yes, sir. They won't trouble him with, well, have you considered this possibility?”

• Danger for Trump and the Country:

  • Lack of dissent undermines both U.S. interests and Trump's own political longevity, because problems won't be brought to his attention until crisis hits.
  • [29:50] John Bolton: "That kind of set of advisers of yes men and yes women is not good for the country. Ultimately, ironically, it won't be good for Trump either."

• Fear of Retribution:

  • Staff compliance is motivated by fear, and Trump has withdrawn many nominations rather than firing, wary of appearing inconsistent.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"Is he going to make a well informed decision or is he going to do it via Neuron Flash, which is his typical style?"
— John Bolton [02:08]

"He thinks some of his interlocutors, the guests at Mar a Lago, know more about things than the CIA does."
— John Bolton [05:23]

"They say we're not going to interfere in decisions of sovereign states...and then they spend paragraph after paragraph denouncing Europe for not being democratic."
— John Bolton [07:09]

"He thinks relations between states are a function of the relations between their leaders…That's not how it works internationally."
— John Bolton [12:41]

"Putin...used his KGB training to figure out how to manipulate Trump. Foreign leaders have figured it out, too...assessing your target's vulnerabilities and then exploiting them."
— John Bolton [18:02]

"He just wants to be able to say, I made a deal, and it's one of the eight wars in eight months that I've stopped."
— John Bolton [19:13]

"He's tried to get people who will simply salute and say, yes, sir...That kind of set of advisers of yes men and yes women is not good for the country. Ultimately, ironically, it won't be good for Trump either."
— John Bolton [29:11] & [29:50]

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Important Timestamps

• [02:08] – John Bolton describes Trump’s aversion to structured, fact-based decision-making.
• [05:23] – Discussion of Mar-a-Lago guests influencing Trump’s foreign policy outlook.
• [07:09] – Contradictions in Trump’s national security strategy, especially regarding Europe.
• [09:16] – Lack of clear objectives and strategy for Venezuela.
• [12:41] – Personalization of foreign policy and disregard for institutional advice.
• [18:02] – Putin’s manipulation of Trump and erratic positions on Ukraine and Russia.
• [19:13] – Bolton questions Trump’s capacity to consider true U.S. interests in Ukraine.
• [23:32] – Xi Jinping’s confident positioning relative to Trump, especially concerning trade.
• [29:11] – Bolton critiques the 'yes-men' adviser culture now surrounding Trump.

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Tone and Style

The discussion is frank, wry, and somewhat sardonic, with both host and guest adopting a tone of critical analysis and occasional humor regarding the unpredictability of Trump’s leadership (“Is it 3D chess or is he eating the pieces?” [31:03]). Bolton is direct but measured, providing both anecdotal and analytical insights into the inner workings of Trump’s foreign policy approach.

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Summary

For listeners who missed the episode, this conversation offers a revealing, sometimes alarming, portrait of how much Trump’s foreign and national security policies come down to his personal inclinations and the influence of his immediate social circle. Bolton’s assessment is that the lack of structured advice and the cultivation of yes-men has left U.S. policy both incoherent and vulnerable to exploitation—particularly by leaders like Putin and Xi, who understand how to play to Trump’s ego and desire for immediate gratification.

The consequences, according to Bolton, include strategic drift in places like Venezuela and Eastern Europe, weakened American bargaining positions against China, and the risk that Trump's second term could be even less restrained by internal dissent or fact-driven logic.

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For more, visit The Daily Beast Podcast page.

Transcript

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[John Bolton]

Trump in the first term came to understand that when people said Mr. President, have you thought about this factor? That factor, the other factor, Mr. President, have you considered alternatives A, B, C? Have you done the cost benefit analysis that he thought that myself, others were trying to prevent him from making the decision he wanted. All I can say is we all understood he was president and he would make the final decision. The question is, is he going to make a well informed decision or is he going to do it via Neuron Flash, which is his typical style?

[Hugh Docherty]

Welcome to the Daily Beast Podcast. I'm Hugh Docherty, executive editor of the Daily Beast I am filling in for Joanna, who is, as I've said before, communing with the powerful of the world and also reading your comments from afar. Thank you to everyone who commented on our last interview with David Rothkopf, our brilliant columnist, one of the best informed people in DC. I have to agree with Marla SY8Q great insights, intelligence and a killer sense of humor. And also in the comments. Yeah, but is it art said? This must be the first time I agree with everything a guest is saying. I don't think you get higher praise than that. I have been in the comments. And just one note from a personal point of view. Thank you for everyone who's mentioned my Scottish accent, good or bad. I just want to clear up a minor debate about where I'm from in Scotland. Sorry to Mr. Rapa Nui9h, you're very slightly out. I am not from Edinburgh or from Stirling, but Becher Wolf 9 and a number of others are right. I am from Glasgow, very proudly so and very happily sitting in the Daily Beast studios in Manhattan where we are very grateful for everyone who subscribes and comments and especially our members. And it's thanks to our members that we have another great guest today who has been inside the Oval Office time after time with Donald Trump, and he has lived to literally tell the tale. I'm talking about John Bolton. He was Donald Trump's national security adviser until September 10, 2019, when he was fired after a tumultuous 17 months. He has since written a memoir and of course he has felt the retribution of Trump. He is now being prosecuted at the instructions of Pam Bondi on charges of mishandling and leaking the nation's secrets, which he of course robustly denies. We last had him on just before the FBI raided his house and a lot of people told us that you wanted to hear from him more. So thanks to our members. I'll just quote some of them, Sysh24 it said, John Bolton is a pure delight and CoatneyGear 3982 said you must himclude him again. Many, many more of you said that you asked and we are making that come true. Ambassador Bolton, thank you for joining us.

There's so many things that we could talk about, but I want to talk about a big picture here. The White House, the administration just released a 33 page document of a national security strategy and Donald Trump's just in an interview with Politico and he's kind of talked about foreign policy. Now let's be Honest. This is not a man who's known for reading or for taking things in. Where does he get his foreign policy from? What is shaping this?

[John Bolton]

Well, you know, guests at Mar A Lago have opinions that he listens to. He picks it up from random conversations with his friends. It comes from a variety of different places. He doesn't bother to check the facts. He thinks some of his interlocutors, the guess at Mar a Lago know more about things than the CIA does. And I've heard him say that. As for this national security strategy, if the first term is any indication, he hasn't read it. He signed an introduction. Maybe he read the introduction that he signed, I don't know. But he didn't read it in the first term, and he didn't pay any attention to it. I don't. I don't think that Trump thinks at a conceptual level. I think he's very transactional, episodic, ad hoc. And I think this statement was put together by, says more of a J.D. vance National Security strategy than a Trump document. We could go on at length about it. It's incoherent, incomplete, contradictory, and much of what it says is not new, and what it says that is new is wrong. So I just. It's a bad look for the United States. But in terms of will it guide or does it presage how Trump will make decisions in the future, I think the answer is no.

[Hugh Docherty]

You said it's a bad look for the United States. Just break that down. It talks a lot about Europe. It talks about Europe being in civilizational decline or civilizational erasure, and it talks about this hemisphere being our concern.

Is that something people should be worried about?

[John Bolton]

Well, those are things that Trump has basically said in the past. And I think what the authors of this were trying to do is ratify what Trump's already said and maybe predict where he might go or where they might like to go.

But I don't think those are solid indications of what's actually on Trump's mind. You know, there was a furor at the beginning of the administration when he talked about invading Canada. Well, we haven't heard much about that recently. And the reason he was saying it, in my view, the first time, was he didn't like Justin Trudeau. He didn't like him in the first term. He liked to call him governor rather than prime minister because it belittled Trudeau, and that made Trump feel good. He. He's not doing that with Mark Carney. Not that he necessarily gets along better with Carney, but it's a different tone. We haven't heard about the invasion of Greenland much recently either. So, you know, Trump has a short attention span right now. He's focused on Venezuela, although he doesn't know what to do there either. So I think this is. These are indications of the contradictions and incoherence of the strategy. I'll just make one more point on Europe, if I may. One of the key elements of the strategy is rejecting kind of idea about neo conservatives that they want to spread democracy around the world, which is a hopelessly abstract concept, and they're not going to do that. And they say we're not going to interfere in decisions of sovereign states, we're not going to push our particular approach on them. And then they spend paragraph after paragraph denouncing Europe for not being democratic. I mean, it's a pretty hard line to draw to say, well, we're not going to criticize anybody like Russia and China, but we will criticize the Europeans.

[Hugh Docherty]

And he just told Political oh, of course I'm going to keep endorsing people I endorsed or banned, which obviously, on the face of it is a complete contradiction to not interfering with any sort of democracy.

[John Bolton]

Right, exactly.

[Hugh Docherty]

Let's go to Venezuela and what's happening in the seas around it. I was going to say in the Gulf, but even that's kind of contentious as to what to call the Gulf, because he's renamed it. But you were not just his national security adviser. You've had a long career in national security. What is going on in the meetings and in the conferences where people are trying to make sense of what to do with what appears to be orders to shoot drug boats.

[John Bolton]

I think one of the problems is you don't have the meetings and conferences through the National Security Council process that are intended to help the president make the most well informed decisions. I don't think Trump ever understood what the NSC was all about. He used to ask me why I couldn't do the job with maybe 8 or 10 people instead of 350. And that's because he thinks decisions are made by the seat of his pants, which is how he does most things and which is how decisions are being made now. I don't think there has been a careful formulation of what the objectives are, whether it's to overthrow Maduro, whether it's to interdict illegal drug trafficking, whether it's to stop terrorist activity, whether it's to prevent illegal immigration. In Trump's brain, I think they're all kind of mushed together. And I don't this is a good example, Venezuela is a good example of how they're not doing strategy, which is can be very simply defined. It's the stating of objectives and the rationalization of how you get your resources together to accomplish the objectives. Why did they bring the Gerald R. Ford carrier strike group from the European theater to the Caribbean? Was it to overthrow Maduro? We don't know. But it's been there now for several weeks and we still don't know what it's going to do. I think that's the cart before the horse. I think somebody got the bright idea to say let's intimidate Maduro, let's have this show of force and maybe he'll back away. Well, he hasn't backed away yet. So what do they do with it.

[Hugh Docherty]

Now and with Maduro? Should he be gone? Is there a case for this? Is there a scenario in which it's a good idea to go in and overthrow the government of Venezuela or persuade him to leave?

[John Bolton]

Well, I think it's clearly in US national security interest to have Maduro and the regime itself ousted. This was our position in the first term. We tried to do it by cooperating with the opposition in Venezuela, applying economic pressure. I don't think we applied enough economic pressure. The opposition made its move and unfortunately it failed. But I think the reasons that we were concerned six or seven years ago are just as valid today. So I do think not just for the well being of the Venezuelan people which would materially improve if the regime were overthrown, but for US national security purposes it makes sense. But since we tried once and failed, it makes it all the more important that if we're going to try again and I would support the use of military force to do it, that you get it right. And what I see is people sitting around the Oval Office saying, well what do you think of this? Or what do you think of that? And not going through the serious business of planning. I think Trump in the first term came to understand that when people said, Mr. President, have you thought about this factor, that factor, the other factor? Mr. President, have you considered alternatives A, B, C, have you done the cost benefit analysis that he thought that myself, others were trying to prevent him from making the decision he wanted. All I can say is we all understood he was president and he would make the final decision. The question is, is he going to make a well informed decision or is he going to do it via Neuron flash, which is his typical style.

[Hugh Docherty]

What's your read of what's behind that, like, I mean, everybody in life is presented with complicated decisions. And, you know, the older, more senior people get, obviously those decisions become more and more complicated. Why rely on neuron flashes?

[John Bolton]

Well, he thinks, Trump thinks that he doesn't need to know much about situations or issues that are bargaining. He thinks relations between states are a function of the relations between their leaders. So, for example, if he has good relations with Vladimir Putin, he thinks U.S. russian state to state relations are good. And how you do a deal is you size up the person on the other side of the table and you just leave facts and details and stuff like that to your subordinates. You and the other big guy just get together and make the decision. And maybe that's how it works in New York real estate. I wouldn't know. That's not how it works internationally. And his unwillingness to consider the consequences of his actions leads him to do things that suddenly get very hard to unravel.

[Hugh Docherty]

You mentioned Putin. And one of the things that seems to have happened in the last few weeks or few months is that Trump marches up one hill and marches down again. He liked Zelensky and now he's against Zelensky. He got on with Putin and then he didn't. And now he's back in the camp. What's going on there? How can somebody who believes in the power of the neuron flash also be so erratic? Ambassador, hold that thought. We need to take a word from the people who pay our bills.

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[Hugh Docherty]

And we are back talking about geopolitics and more importantly about Trump with John Bolton.

[John Bolton]

Well, he doesn't see it as erratic. He sees his supporters talk about how he's playing this complex game of three dimensional chess. No, he's not. He's barely doing this one move at a time. And I think that because he thinks Vladimir Putin is his friend, in the context of Ukraine, he trusts Putin more than he trusts Zelensky. And I think what you're seeing is that Putin, going back to the first term, used his KGB training to figure out how to manipulate Trump. Foreign leaders have figured it out, too. And I don't mean anything nefarious about KGB training. I mean, it boils down to assessing your target's vulnerabilities and then exploiting them. And I think that's what Putin has done with great success with Trump. Zelenskyy's worked hard to establish a personal relationship after the February debacle in the Oval Office. I give him a lot of credit for effort, but it doesn't take. And I think that's one reason now, in the past few days, Trump has been tilting back toward Putin. I mean, let's see where he is after Christmas. It could be the other direction again.

[Hugh Docherty]

Can you just spell out what is the danger of tilting towards Putin? Why should people worry about this?

[John Bolton]

Well, if you're considering what the American national security interests are, as opposed to what I think Donald Trump is doing, which is trying to get the Nobel Peace Prize by having a peace deal in Ukraine, he doesn't care what it says. He doesn't care what the terms are. He just wants to be able to say, I made a deal and it's one of the eight wars in eight months that I've stopped.

[Hugh Docherty]

I think he decided it's number nine, although.

[John Bolton]

Nine. I'm sorry.

[Hugh Docherty]

Well, it's unclear what exactly the, you know, which war switch, so.

[John Bolton]

Right. It varies from day to day, I'm sure, although he lists them in the National Security Strategy, so at least we have the compendium. The point is, he's not making decisions on the basis of what's in America's national security interest. Our interest in the case of Ukraine is that this is an act of. Unprovoked by the aggression by the Russians against a country that's vital to Central Europe. That has a clear impact on our interest in NATO and the ramifications of which affect stability and security around the world. How the Chinese see the Western reaction in Ukraine could dictate how China performs in East Southeast and South Asia. So this is of really significant importance to us. And so we should be asking what's. What is the resolution here that deters future aggression by the Russians and by the Chinese and by others that restores deterrence and brings back peace and security in Central Europe. Those are the questions to be addressed. That's not what Donald Trump is talking about.

[Hugh Docherty]

If you were back in the Oval Office, how would you try to tell Trump that?

[John Bolton]

Well, you're not operating on a blank slate, obviously, at this point. And I think it's very difficult to get him to back away from, from the direction he's taken. But you have to appeal to what's in his interest. In other words, what's going to make him look good. Unfortunately, at the moment, he's so fascinated by this idea of the Nobel Peace Prize, which he was in the first term, too, that I don't really know how to persuade him to think of the bigger picture or that he might look foolish if he simply accepts Putin's terms. That's what many people warned that, say, don't worry, he won't be captured by Putin because he doesn't want to look foolish. Well, that guardrail disappeared a long time ago.

[Hugh Docherty]

Trump seems to think that Xi is his friend. I mean, first of all, is he his friend?

[John Bolton]

Look, I don't think people like Putin and Xi and Kim Jong Un have friends in that regard. These are hard men. They know what their national interests are, and that's what they pursue. So I think Xi is very closely watching what's happening in Ukraine, and I think there may be a slight cultural bias here. But I think he's saying, you know, if the west won't stand up against aggression in Central Europe, they're not going to stand up against aggression on Taiwan or some other target in far away Asia, may apply more to Europe than to the United States. But I think that Xi's view. Xi has also had direct personal confrontation with Trump in this. In this second term over economic issues. And my assessment is that Xi thinks he came away the winner. He created a crisis with, threatening to withhold the rare earths. Trump responded, and then Trump backed down. That's not exactly taco. Trump always chickens out. But I think Xi believes he knows how to go eyeball to eyeball with Trump and to win. The big test now will be when they meet in Beijing in April. In his first term, Trump wanted to make the biggest trade deal in human history with China. He didn't make it, and I don't think the Chinese would have given us what we should ask for in our own national interest to make such a deal. But Trump still thinks he can make it, and he'd love to make it in time for this trip to China. And he's giving away things. He's allowing Nvidia to sell the H200 chip, which many people think is a big mistake. Mistake. He has made aspersions about Taiwan most recently in the national security strategy and done a number of other things that indicate to me he's telling everybody, don't mess up this trade deal. I want this trade deal. Don't let anything get in the way of it. That's music to Xi Jinping's ears.

[Hugh Docherty]

And we saw that China has a record trade surplus of $1 trillion.

Even after what Trump saw as tariffs on China. So it looks like Trump's in a much weaker position even than he was before.

[John Bolton]

Well, it appears that confronted with these tariffs or confronted with the prospect of even higher tariffs than Trump actually put in place with respect to China, that Beijing made a very aggressive campaign in Southeast Asia and elsewhere to increase its exports to those countries to make up for what they believed or feared would be the loss of trade with the US and these statistics seem to me to prove that they were very successful at that. So I think coming into 2026, I think Xi Jinping thinks that he is pretty well placed to deal with Trump. And you know, what he's trying to promote on a global basis beyond the trade issue is that China's a rock of stability that, you know, what you get with China parentheses as opposed to these Americans who have just elected this lunatic Trump. And in many countries, the idea of stable relations is very attractive. I think it's deceptively attractive. But GE has worked that strategy and has been, to my mind, unfortunately, pretty successful at it.

[Hugh Docherty]

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Hey folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF. And today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile. So you're thinking about upgrading to the amazing new iPhone 17 Pro, the most powerful phone yet with 8 times optical zoom. But are you also thinking about the hassle of getting the phone at the store and transferring all your data? Well, good news, when you order a new phone online with Boost Mobile, they'll send an expert to your home or work to deliver your brand new iPhone 17 Pro and get you all set up on Boost Mobile within minutes. Visit boostmobile.com to get started. Delivery available for select devices [e-mail] terms apply.

[Blue Apron / Tommy John Advertisers]

Hannah Burner Are those the cozy Tommy John pajamas you're buying?

[Hannah Berner / Paige Desorbo]

Paige desorbo they are Tommy John. And yes, I'm stocking up because they make the best holiday gifts so generous. Well, I'm a generous girly, especially when it comes to me. So I'm grabbing the softest sleepwear, comfiest underwear and best fitting loungewear.

[Blue Apron / Tommy John Advertisers]

So nothing for your bestie?

[Hannah Berner / Paige Desorbo]

Of course I'm getting my dad Tommy John. Oh and you of course it's giving.

[Blue Apron / Tommy John Advertisers]

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[Hannah Berner / Paige Desorbo]

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[Joe from Vanta]

Is Joe from Vanta. In today's digital world, compliance regulations are changing constantly and earning customer trust has never mattered more. Vanta helps companies get compliant fast and stay secure with the most advanced AI, automation and continuous monitoring out there. So whether you're a startup going for your first SoC2 or ISO 27001 or a growing enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta makes it quick, easy and scalable. And I'm not just saying that because I work here. Get [e-mail].

[Hugh Docherty]

Here we are back talking about whether it's really 3D chess that Trump is playing. Put yourself back in the Oval Office. Is there a way that you could try to get Trump to in some way not bow to Xi? Is there some way of getting inside his mind that would make him stand up?

[John Bolton]

Well, I think you have to point to things that look like Xi, insulting him or treating him patronizingly, that kind of thing. Because as I said before, with Trump, it's always personal. Forget about trade deficits and things like that. When it comes to dealing with Xi Jinping, you have to say to Trump, he's trying to humiliate you, he looks down on you.

He'S setting you up to put it in that kind of frame and then to try and drive the actual policy behind the personal dissatisfaction that perhaps you could get Trump to feel about Xi, the way Trump feels dissatisfaction with European leaders whom he regards as weak or deceptive, that kind of thing.

[Hugh Docherty]

And is anybody at Mar A Lago telling him any of this? Or is it some other version? Because you've obviously had this experience of going in, I'd guess on a Monday morning, maybe a Monday afternoon, and hearing the download from Trump of what he's been told.

[John Bolton]

Right. Well, it's very unclear what decision making process there is at all. As I've said, I don't think the National Security Council process is working. And when you combine Trump's short attention span with his proclivity to listen to the last person he talks to, it explains the continuing turmoil. I think that's a fact of life, that's a condition of employment at the White House that you have to understand. That's how it goes.

[Hugh Docherty]

How do you see the people around him right now dealing with that? Because clearly, you know, you went in, you tried to deal with him on those terms, and he didn't engage with that. But what do you see people around him doing now?

[John Bolton]

Well, I think Trump took away from the first term the lesson that there were too many people around him who had too many opinions and didn't just say, yes, sir, when he said, I want to do something. So I believe across the administration, with a few exceptions, he's tried to get people who will simply salute and say, yes, sir. They won't trouble him with, well, have you considered this possibility? Even though. So ultimately, that kind of set of advisers of yes men and yes women is not good for the country. Ultimately, ironically, it won't be good for Trump either, because they won't warn him of dangers. They'll be too afraid of being viewed as obstructionist.

[Hugh Docherty]

And just to allude lightly to your experience, are people motivated, do you believe, by fear of retribution? The reason to say yes is because of being concerned about what might happen.

[John Bolton]

I think that's a big part of it. And one of the interesting things is the statistics are that Trump has withdrawn more nominations for positions in his administration than any recent president this term in the first year. He hasn't fired many people, though. And I think there he's worried that if we go back to the pattern of the first term, that he'll be accused of hiring all these incompetents. You ought to ask, well, who hired him in the first place? But he's in a difficult position now. He has the set of advisers that he says he wanted that are going to make America great again, unlike those people in the first term. So if he starts firing these people, you have to wonder when he's ever going to get it right.

[Hugh Docherty]

Ambassador Bolton, if he ever gets it right. I hope you'll come back and join us. I suspect that you'll be joining us before. That would be my guess. Thank you for your time. Thank you for yourselves to the country and look forward to seeing you again in the future.

[John Bolton]

Well, thank you. Look forward to it myself.

[Hugh Docherty]

Well, is it 3D chess or is he eating the pieces? Is it drafts? Is it checkers? Does he know himself? We are going to keep up to date with every move from Trump on whichever board he's playing on, all the details of who's talking to him at Mar a Lago, and of course every update on his health, which at 79 does seem more precarious. And he's definitely nodding off more. Please tell us in the comments what you think. Also tell us who you'd like to hear from. Just hit join under the video. It's not just getting your name read out in my mangled accent. That's a benefit of joining. You also get exclusive access to live streams, op eds much more. Thank you to everyone for joining us. Thank you to the YouTube closed captioners who've been wrestling with my accent. And thank you of course to our first lady who's the in inspired us all to say, as Joanna always instructs, please be beast. We couldn't do this of course, without our beast tier members who are Karen White, Sandra Clark, methinks Travels with Carol, Andrew Beaver, Capinator, Harry Clark, Don McCarthy, Daniel Doglover, M. Grinder, Fulvia, Orlando, Herbie, Andrew Mellor, Laz Conde, Bonzo, Val Love, Francisco, Andrea Hodel, Bocock D.C. sharon Shipley, Connie Rutherford and Heidi Riley. And finally, thanks to our team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Olsen and Jesse Millward, without whom we could not create this podcast.

Boost Mobile is now sending experts nationwide to deliver and set up customers new phones.

[John Bolton]

Wait, we're going on tour?

[Hugh Docherty]

We're delivering and setting up customers phones?

[John Bolton]

It's not a tour, not with that attitude.

[Hugh Docherty]

Introducing store to door switch and get a new device with expert setup and delivery.

[John Bolton]

Delivery available for select devices purchased@boost mobile.com.

[Joe from Vanta]

Hi, this is Joe from Vanta. In today's digital world, compliance regulations are changing constantly and earning customer trust has never mattered more. Vanta helps companies get compliant fast and stay secure with the most advanced AI, automation and continuous monitoring out there. So whether you're a startup going for your first SoC2 or ISO 27001 or a growing enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta makes it quick, easy and scalable. And I'm not just saying that because I work here. Get [e-mail] hey, it's Adam Grant from.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ted's podcast Work Life and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 companies use the ServiceNow AI platform, while other platforms duct tape tools together. ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data workflows and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work.

[Hannah Berner / Paige Desorbo]

For [e-mail].

Hannah Berner are those the.

[Blue Apron / Tommy John Advertisers]

Cozy Tommy John pajamas you're buying?

[Hannah Berner / Paige Desorbo]

Paige desorbo they are Tommy John. And yes, I'm stocking up because they make the best holiday gifts.

[Blue Apron / Tommy John Advertisers]

So generous.

[Hannah Berner / Paige Desorbo]

Well, I'm a generous girly, especially when it comes to me, so I'm grabbing the softest sleepwear, comfiest underwear, and best fitting loungewear.

[Blue Apron / Tommy John Advertisers]

So nothing for your bestie?

[Hannah Berner / Paige Desorbo]

Of course I'm getting my dad Tommy John. Oh, and you?

[Blue Apron / Tommy John Advertisers]

Of course it's giving holiday gifting made Easy.

[Hannah Berner / Paige Desorbo]

Exactly. Cozy, comfy, everyone's happy. Gift everyone on your list, including yourself with Tommy john and get 40% off site wide right [e-mail] comfort.

[John Bolton]

Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily Beast [e-mail] podcasts if you enjoyed this.

[Blue Apron / Tommy John Advertisers]

Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber.

[John Bolton]

Subscribing is the best way to feed.

[Blue Apron / Tommy John Advertisers]

The beast and support all of your.

[John Bolton]

Podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast.com com membershippodcast and sign up today.