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- [00:02]
John Lovett
This episode is brought to you by Fox 1. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multiview. Choose up to three streams and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights and instant replays. The FIFA World cup streaming live on Fox One. Offers are subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. I wrote a little song to remind you. Choice hotels get you more of the experiences you value.
- [00:36]
Joanna Coles
Mm.
- [00:37]
John Lovett
The Cambria Hotel's got it all. A rooftop bar. Have a ball. Cocktails up here feel just right. Ms. Cambria.
- [00:47]
Joanna Coles
Amazing.
- [00:49]
John Lovett
All right, bring a date, your team or even your mom. Book direct@ChoiceHotels.com See you on the roof.
- [01:01]
Joanna Coles
And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the match day spread. He's reaching for the buffalo wing. Perfect.
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John Lovett
Hang on.
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Joanna Coles
What's this? Oh, he's gone for a can of Pepsi too. Incredible. What a finish. Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi.
- [01:26]
John Lovett
Zero sugar for today's match.
- [01:29]
Joanna Coles
It's poetry in motion.
- [01:30]
John Lovett
It's a rare mom where you could have actually had a beautiful, like, American patriotic celebration. I'll be cringe and say that I'm sad that we don't get to have that, but instead we have this ridiculous, incompetent boob. The Ferris wheel isn't working. The reflecting pool is green. The ice cream is melting. Nobody's showing up. States feel like they should cancel and they're right to do so. Nobody wants to be associated with this guy and it's just a big bummer. This is a dark moment and it is a shame that we have fallen so low that this is what it will look like to forever for how we marked an important milestone in the history of the country. That's where I'm at. And I hope they fix the pool.
- [02:15]
Joanna Coles
I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. And today we're going to be talking to pod save America's John Lovett from love it or leave it. And there's a lot he wants to leave behind. We get into Trump's health. We get into the disaster that is the 250th anniversary. We get into his reflections on what it was like being at the Obama library. But really, we get into what are the Republicans doing and what is Donald Trump doing, riling up his colleagues in Congress. Why is he doing that? What possibly is his strategy? And how should the Democrats take it on? What is the future of the Democratic Party while the Republicans are doing what they're doing right now? How bad is it going to be for Trump at the midterms? What is he going to do to try and thwart a Democratic victory? And, well, we get into John's plans for how he'll be celebrating 250 years of America. So before we go any further, I just want to remind you, please subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast. That's how we, we can bring you these independent conversations. Yes, we're still independent media and there aren't that many of us around at this stage. We appreciate your support. Okay, here's Jon Lovett. John Lovett, you are fresh back from the opening of the Obama library, and I want to know exactly what the gossip was there. I also want to know what you think about how badly Trump might lose at the midterms. I want to know what you think about the state fair. I want to know what you think about the reflecting pool. But because you have been on this scene as long as you have and you've been such a strong observer of it, I want to know what you think about Donald Trump as he enters his ninth decade in terms of his health. This is a man who's been in plain sight. We've seen him talking and walking for the last 40 years in the media. When you look at him now, do you see a man who is still the same as him he was when we first watched him on television, or do you think he's changed?
- [04:27]
John Lovett
So if you go back and watch Trump in the debates in 2016 or go back further than that, there's clearly been a change in how he communicates. It's much less controlled. You know, he always meandered. It was always quite narcissistic. But he used to, he's not getting, he can't get purchase. You know it when he's speaking, he's always like, we're tumbling down the side of a hill. And it used to be, it used to be that at some point the talons would grab and then he'd make the point he was trying to make. He was just a little bit faster, a little bit quicker. And so I do think part of that is just him getting older and slowing down. Part of it also is he no longer feel obliged, feels obliged to pretend to talk like a normal politician or to be as serious as he thinks he should be. I think he was putting on a little bit of a show of what he thought he was supposed to sound like, and now he feels less restrained. And then also, he doesn't feel as if he needs to stop himself from going on his tangents anymore. He no longer has, I think, anyone around him giving him the kind of feedback that would say, hey, you really do need to get back to the message. He was always like that. It's worse than it was. Right. This is obviously not a new phenomenon with Donald Trump that he's at an event that's supposed to be about affordability and he's ranting about the election being stolen and his enemies and how beautiful the ballroom is going to be. You could find versions of that all along the way, but he's just a little bit. It's more bombastic, it's less cogent. There are fewer vocabulary words. Now, what's the difference between a person that is losing a step as they're getting older and a person who is with age, no longer feeling bound by the kind of rules that people used to be bound by? I don't know. Maybe both is what getting older really is. But that's how I see it.
- [06:32]
Joanna Coles
And do you see there being a sort of a health, a mental health condition, or do you think it might just be him getting older? And his point has always been, I'm not a regular politician. I'm not going to talk to you like a regular politician because people don't like politicians.
- [06:49]
John Lovett
I don't think it really matters. He is mentally unfit to be president. He is psychologically unfit to be president. He should not be in this job. He is depraved and reprehensible, narcissistic and broken figure. He has little to no character. He is unfit. Is he becoming more unfit as he ages? Probably, probably. But we're already on the wrong side of the line, so. And, and there's a problem, right? There are a lot of people that, that are frustrated because they say, well, we talked about Joe Biden's age all the time. Why aren't we having the same conversation about Donald Trump? Why does Donald Trump get sorted as crazy, not old? Right? And I think some of that is his talents as a political figure. He seems energetic. He's everywhere. He's always speaking. And, you know, he, he's going to the, to the game and then speaking on the tarmac at midnight. What is he saying on the tarmac at midnight? Gobbledygook. But he's always out there. So I do Think that's a defense against the accusation. But regardless, like, is, does he have a mental disorder or is he just the world's shittiest person? I don't know. Or maybe that's a distinction without a difference. Like, I don't, I don't know what you would find about Donald Trump in the DSM 6, but I don't, I just don't care.
- [08:13]
Joanna Coles
It might be under its own section.
- [08:15]
John Lovett
Yeah, for sure.
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Joanna Coles
Kind of. Yeah.
- [08:18]
John Lovett
Are we on the DM? Are we on the DSM 6? What DSM are we on? I don't know what it's. Where, where are we on that? I don't know.
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Joanna Coles
But he would, there'd be no diagnosis ever before. Like, it's the only diagnosis like this, blah, blah, blah. He'd be very, I think he'd be very proud of that.
- [08:32]
John Lovett
I think that's right.
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Joanna Coles
So you're an expert in communication. Can you sort of analyze for us his communication style? Because as you say, he's always talking. He's always talking. And the contrast obviously with Joe Biden, who was sort of whispering, but is Trump's always talking actually an advantage for him?
- [09:01]
John Lovett
So, you know, this has been the question for such a long time with Trump. Like, it's clear Trump thinks it is right and the people around Trump thinks it is an advantage to him. It certainly was in primaries where he crowded out the space for anyone to compete with him. Now as president, right now he has an approval rating. You know, maybe on a good day there's a four in front of it. It's in the three, sometimes low threes. A new survey just came out from cnn, I believe that found his strong support is down to 16% from the high 20s or so. Even the, the die hard supporters of Trump are no longer as much behind him. The country really has, I think, turned on him because of inflation, because of the war, and because he hasn't delivered on what he said he was going to do and because he's been absurdly focused on ridiculous side quests instead of the main job of being president. So, yeah, he's out there every day. Would it be worse if he weren't? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It's a little bit overdetermined now. I think what Trump sees is everyone says I'm, you know, doing damage to myself and I, I'm not on message. And yet here I am, president in my second term. And so, you know, presidents, they don't change, you know, they kind of become more themselves in A way. And a lot of the, the, the strengths that bring them to office often become flaws when they stick to them. Right. You know, I think that is true of Biden in the way that he always felt he was underestimated and was underestimated. And so that, that allowed them to kind of build this sort of fortress around themselves in which they believe the fact that they were being so questioned was yet another sign that he was being doubted, even though he'll always pull through in the end, that he was a closer. You know, Barack Obama was someone who had a kind of steady calm. And then, you know, they lose the Congress. And you know what, there's a kind of like a steadiness, but maybe a lack of a judgment adjustment that people criticize in the second term. And I think that's debatable. But I think that would be the case with Trump. Right. Like, he was cast out virtually. Right. I mean, Mitch McConnell and as one of the great horse, the four horsemen of the apocalypse, failed to. Fail to. Fail to get rid of him. But nonetheless, like, there's never been a president at a lower ebb. He had launched an insurrection. He was considered unelectable. You go back to look at these statements from Republicans now supplicating before him that said he was finished and done and desp. And yet he clawed his way back. So that's. He thinks he was rewarded for his. His, like his, his. His flood the zone communication and talking about election theft and everything else. So is he rewarded for it? I think he's president and he shouldn't be. But right now, no, I mean, Donald Trump, there's no one doing more damage to the ability of Republicans to retain some seats in Congress than Donald Trump. He couldn't be doing more to hurt their chances of keeping the House and keeping the Senate. And that's in part because of how much he's out there.
- [12:44]
Joanna Coles
You're eating French fries at the beach and you want to take a quick dip in the ocean, so you put a seagull on watch. That's not security. That's catering for the seagull. There's a reason you wouldn't trust a seagull with your fries. Just like there's a reason why Morgan and Morgan is a America's largest injury law firm. Morgan and Morgan has a proven track record of fighting for the people over 35 years with over $30 billion recovered for their clients. Morgan and Morgan knows a thing or two about fighting to get you the compensation you deserve. Hiring Morgan and Morgan is like hiring an army to go into battle. They've got more than 1,000 lawyers and 100 offices nationwide. So if you're injured by someone else's negligence, you deserve to be paid. Not all law firms are the same. Hire the wrong one and you may be beat before you even start. If you're ever injured, you should check out Morgan and Morgan. Morgan and Morgan will fight to get their clients the best results. And their fee is free unless they win. For more information, you can go to forthepeople.com dailybeast. Okay, so two questions I want to ask you from that. How badly do you think he could lose in the mid and the shouting and the sort of bullying behavior that was immediately leaked after the Republican Senate lunch on Wednesday where he and Bill Cassidy, the senator from Louisiana, who, as we know, Donald Trump, primaried and won in that lunch. Trump was calling him a loser. He was saying he was a lunatic. Cassidy emerged from the lunch looking actually shaken up, even for a man who already knows he's not going back to the Senate. So, so can you talk a little bit about what you think he's getting out of that?
- [14:37]
John Lovett
Yeah. I mean, like, how strategic is it for Donald Trump to get into a screaming match with a Republican senator in front of the caucus when, you know, to and to basically talk at them for some length of time without letting anybody else speak? I don't know. The. He does not brook dissent. Right. And four Republicans broke and supported the Iran War Powers Resolution. The set Republicans in the Senate will not give him the votes as of right now to pass his SAVE act, which is a law to make it harder to vote in federalize elections, because they are worried about being defeated in the midterms. And Donald Trump doesn't like feeling out of control. He, you know, for all his bluster, he sees the polls. He knows what's coming. I, I think he would, I think he would like to pass a law to make, to tilt the scales towards Republicans in the election in terms of the vote, actually kind of hamstringing our democracy because I think that gives them a chance. But also I think he'd like to blame them if they fail to pass this, because he's saying if we don't pass it, we're going to lose because they're going to steal it. I also think he doesn't like being rebuked on Iran. I don't think he, his ego can handle even the slightest question by these people. It's embarrassing to him. And he also believes that part of his power comes from all of these people knowing that he never lets anything go. He swings at every pitch. And so, yeah, when he goes in there, he's going to go toe to toe with Cassidy, who he just defeated in a primary and feels like he bullied basically out of Congress. And he is going to kind of push these people until they come back and have another vote on the Iran war powers so that he can go around and say, see, see, see, I, I, I, like, I have these people, they'll do whatever I say.
- [16:28]
Joanna Coles
So you were obviously part of the Obama administration and we had the jcpoa. We now appear to have a deal that is far less good. That leaves the Iranians, as we've seen today, the shot at tanker today leaves the Iranians in control of the Strait of Hormuz. Does it sort of make you despair when you look at the recent action in Iran? I mean, do you just think, oh, the world's moving in a sort of, in a worse direction, or are you sort of fairly sanguine about it?
- [17:03]
John Lovett
I think if we stopped and really considered the amount of damage, generational damage that's being done by this presidency, the, the amount of preventable chaos, destruction,
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Joanna Coles
lost
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John Lovett
opportunity, it's almost too much to take in all at once. And it's obviously the, the things he's breaking, right? The what he's, what he, what, what they did to usaid. The, the kind of destruction of, the kind of independence of the Justice Department, the firing of people with expertise all across the government, like we saw with Screwworm, the research that's not being done or that was aborted in the middle, that held such promise that hopefully could be resumed but or may be lost. Like the, the staggering cost of what he's done. The, the, the, the people that were contributing to our society whose only fault was having been undocumented or come as a child, but was told by us to come. Right. We built an economy around undocumented people. We told them that they could work. They came and they built lives here because we had an immigration system built on the backs of people who were undocumented. And the amount of pain and misery, all of it, you add it up, it's, it's, it's staggering. And you know, I think there's a lot of people that, that like, oh, you know, you know, we'll undo this, we'll undo that, some of it, hopefully. But no, we're, we're paying a great price for this. It's terrible. What he's doing is terrible. The, the, the fact that we pulled out of the jcpoa, the Obama era nuclear deal. We, we launched this war that killed thousands of people. We enabled Benjamin Netanyahu to basically yoke America into this conflict that has not only harmed our interests, but, by the way, made Israel more of a pariah in the world. Destroyed what was a bipartisan consensus about supporting Israel. The cost of what Trump has done and what this administration has done, we will pay for a very long time.
- [19:43]
Joanna Coles
Were you ever part of conversations, even sort of tangentially, when Netanyahu was trying to pressurize the Obama administration into going into Iran? I mean, Hillary Clinton's talked about it a lot recently, and Ben Rhodes has been on our podcast talking about it.
- [20:01]
John Lovett
So I was in this domestic speechwriting, and so I really didn't touch foreign policy. Ben Rhodes and another writer named Terry Zooplat did a lot of the foreign policy speech writing. But I think, as we all know this, Benjamin Netanyahu has been wanting the United States to be drawn into a conflict with Iran for as long as he's been in public life. It's been his great mission, and he finally succeeded when he convinced Donald Trump to do it. Now, a lot of the, like, you know what we just talked about, the, the, the ways in which the US Kind of was way too allied with Benjamin Netanyahu refused to put enough pressure on Israel that predates Donald Trump. Joe Biden deserves a lot of criticism for that as well. But the fact that there was a presentation by Benjamin Netanyahu in the Situation Room to the President of the United States, I see a lot of people saying once we learn that, like, oh, wow, like, I can't believe what Benjamin Netanyahu was able to get away with. But to get into that room is a decision made by Marco Rubio, who is National Security Advisor, among many other responsibilities. It's a decision by the administration to put Donald Trump in that position. So this is a, this isn't just a Donald Trump thing. It's not even just a Benjamin thing. This was an administration decision by the leaders of this administration to bound us up with Israel's policy of wanting to do regime change in Iran. And it backfired spectacularly. And the end result is America looking weak and Iran being able to assert control over this waterway while J.D. vance negotiates a deal that is far less stringent than the one Donald Trump claimed was the worst deal in human history.
- [21:57]
Joanna Coles
One thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is how easy it is to go through life just assuming everything is fine until something Isn't. I feel like so many doctor visits end the same way. Everything looks fine. Drink more water. See you next year. Meanwhile, I'm left wondering, am I getting enough nutrients? How's my metabolism? What should I actually be focusing on? That's why I'm excited about Superpower. Superpower takes a completely different approach. They send a licensed professional to your home, or you can visit a nearby lab and you get testing across more than 100 biomarkers. Then everything shows up in one app with insights into your heart, health, hormones, metabolism, vitamins, minerals, biological age, and more. What I love is that it doesn't just give you data. It gives you an actionable plan and tracks your progress over time so you're not starting from scratch every year. Make this the year you stop guessing about your health with Superpower. For a limited time, our listeners get $20 off to unlock their new health intelligence. Head over to superpower.com and use code DailyBeast for $20 off your membership. That's code Daily Beast. And after you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about Superpower. So do us a favor and tell them the Daily Beast sent you. Do you think that J.D. vance is being set up to fail here?
- [23:34]
John Lovett
You know, no, I don't think he's being set up by anyone to fail. I think he's failing because he's failing on his own. There's no grant. They. He is, he is not being, he's not some sort of stooge here. He is trying to put himself out there as a great communicator for the administration. And, you know, he's just like, I don't know, the person out there who was able to, in a sophisticated way, defend Donald Trump. Like, maybe such a person doesn't exist, but it's certainly not J.D. vance, right?
- [24:15]
Joanna Coles
Who today was celebrating Richard Nixon and saying that if Richard Nixon were around today, can we just have that moment? The only American president to have resigned. And J.D. vance is like, you know what, if that was now, It'd be a 12 hour news cycle.
- [24:30]
John Lovett
You know what? And this is where it's like he's, maybe he's not wrong. You know what, Maybe he's right. Maybe that's how bad things have gotten. Maybe he's right that if Richard Nixon were around today, he wouldn't face pressure from inside his own party to resign. There wouldn't be the kind of collective fury at the criminality of the administration. And what a great shame that is. What a great historic shame that JD Vance is a Part of. Look at him sitting there all smug, kind of like Attenborough on the Serengeti with a pair of binoculars, remarking on how far America has fallen, like it's despicable. And he's doing this, by the way. It's not, you know, look, I don't, I don't, I don't think it's such a, like a masterstroke. I think it's some great strategy. But I think he is signaling that he is willing to behave in a Nixonian way or a Trumpian way. Right. That he'd be willing to do the kind of thing that Nixon would do that he didn't get away with. Right. That he'd be willing to, you know, be as sleazy as Nixon want. Nixon was, I guess what, I guess that's what he's saying. But I find the whole thing, it is. You know, you'll go back and watch a movie from the 90s where a scandal is exposed and it brings down the President. And Harrison Ford goes before Congress and he says, this is what happened when the President illegally sent troops to South America. And that's when the movie ends. That's when the movie ends because it's assumed in the movie that everyone's going to be so pissed that there'll be consequences. And now it's like, well, I don't know what would happen. Maybe the President goes out there and calls him a liar and, and, and buttonholes his, his Republican allies. And those Republicans, it turns out, have absolutely no loyalty or deeper set of principles that they care about, none they'd willing to risk anything for. And so the President would get away with whatever.
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Joanna Coles
Right. So you think he might be signaling. That's interesting, I thought. I mean, I was very confused by that because also he was talking about how, you know, lots of Nixon's policies, like opening up China and trying to get a nuclear treaty with the Russians. I mean, that was odd, too, because that's the opposite of what Donald Trump is doing. Donald Trump has slapped tariffs on China and he's snuggling up to Vladimir Putin. I mean, I thought that was bizarre.
- [26:53]
John Lovett
Well, yeah, look, I'm not really super interested in JD Vance's, like, efforts to use a kind of narrow reading of history to justify his abandonment of any principles and completely reverse who he claimed to be. But, you know, Nixon creates the epa. He was strategic. You know, I think people who defend Trump, they go to, like, the madman theory that Nixon would pretend to be a little bit nuts and, and Kissinger would say, that because, you know, democracies have a disadvantage because autocracies know we care about our people and are responsible to them. That gives them the ability to negotiate harder because we know they don't have to care as much about the damage they can do. I'm just. This is what. And so you get. You have to pretend to be a little bit crazy. You got to push them to the edge. But there was a point to Nixon going to China. There was a goal. It was about creating a friction between the two communist countries. Trump has empowered Vladimir Putin. He has empowered China. He has bullied our allies. He is trying to break NATO. He is threatening Greenland. He is tariffing our friends. He is doing great damage to our interests. So, yeah, man, boy, Nixon, he certainly did get. He certainly maybe would have gotten away with more today. He also would be a rhino, squish, neocon. So, you know, good luck, J.D. i guess. I don't know.
- [28:32]
Joanna Coles
By the time I hit my 50s, I'd learned a few things, like how family is precious, work can always wait. And 99% of people over 50 already have the virus that causes shingles. Not everyone at risk will develop it, but I did. The painful, blistering rash disrupted my life for weeks. Don't learn about your shingles risk the hard way. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist today. Sponsored by GSK. Good luck, J.D. so how bad, actually, do you think? I mean, I'm so used to hearing you being cheerful and the funny man, and it's interesting hearing you so sort of worked up about it, because
- [29:16]
John Lovett
how
- [29:16]
Joanna Coles
bad do you think Trump could be as the midterms approach?
- [29:26]
John Lovett
I don't think there's anything you really can take off the table. So he. The. The Justice Department has become a tool of the administration in an unprecedented way. So it has the ability to launch investigations into anyone. There was reports about the Justice Department going after Gavin Newsom. Now, we don't know the details of that yet. There's a. I think John Bolton, I think, is pleading guilty today. And you end up. You end up talking about the specifics of the allegations, which you. Which we should do. Right? Of course that's what you should do. But can you trust that an administration isn't going after someone? There's whatever. They end up turning up on people. It has always been the case, and it has been a great warning from previous attorneys general that if the Justice Department goes after people and looks for crimes, as opposed to looking for crimes and then finding those responsible, that is destructive. Even if they find Stuff. You go digging through the campaign finance reports of every, every Democrat with a chance of defeating a vulnerable Republican. Are there going to be problems in the filings? Are there mistakes? This is a complicated legal regime like people like this is. This is the danger of what a Justice Department can do if it's targeting individuals. So they will be opening investigations into Democrats that they, that they're worried about. And it will be incumbent upon us to, to call that out for what it is. We don't know what they're going to do around polling places. We don't know what they're going to do about seating people once they've won. I do think the answer is winning so big such, by, by such a great margin that it is too big to, to, to rig. And I'm glad California has passed some reforms to counter the ballots faster, too, even though a lot of those allegations are, you know, all those allegations of California being rigging the votes because we count slowly are completely made up and specious. But I do think counting ballots faster is just good government anyway. But of course I'm worried about it. He, Trump is never more dangerous than when he's cornered. He's a, he's a, you know, he's a feral creature.
- [31:49]
Joanna Coles
He's a feral creature. He is indeed. So you were at the Obama Library opening last week. Very jealous. I wanted to know exactly what it was like. And also, is the building more attractive when you're actually there? Because the photos of it look very brutalist and kind of severe. But I'm told by people inside, you know, being inside, it's actually much more appealing.
- [32:14]
John Lovett
So the, the stone on the outside of the tower is much more interesting in person. It is much more like, surprising and beautiful in person. And it is definitely not translating to photos. I think that that's true. It's also just a bigger space, right? People are pointing to that one building. That building isn't the, that the, the Obama Lisk isn't the only structure that's like one structure. And it's a beautiful campus. And a lot of what, but a lot of it is about what, what it feels like to be outside and to walk around. So it is a beautiful place on the whole. Like, I, I'm not, you know, I was a Hillary person before I was an Obama person. And I, I, I say this facetiously, but, but I do think it's true. Like, like I'm not a hope person. Like, that's not what motivates me. I'm an anger person. I'm Motivated by rage. And I. I sometimes find in politics, I think being inspiring is of great value. Right? And because what you're. What does it mean to be inspiring? You're convincing people to do more than they might otherwise do or to, to be more generous, to be more open, to be more curious, to be more involved, to use their power. Like. And that's. That's a beautiful and good thing. But when a person says, I want to be inspired, it's like, what do you mean? That's not. That would suggest, you know, what you should be doing, and you're waiting for someone to, what, like, like, like, give you goosebumps, so you go out and do it. So for me, I'm not. I'm not a nostalgic person by nature, so. So, but so for me, walking around, what I was. What I was struck by is there is a tension, which is Barack Obama had. Did you see that? Barack Obama, what. Did you see his approval rating among Democrats right now? Do you know what it is?
- [33:58]
Joanna Coles
It's probably incredibly high, isn't it?
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John Lovett
It's 96%.
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Joanna Coles
It's 96.
- [34:04]
John Lovett
Wow. Is the he. If you ask him. There was another. Another poll came out, and by a plurality, when people say who's the best president in living memory, it's. Or to something to that extent, it's Barack Obama. So he remains this unifying and popular figure. And even when he was losing ground on the economy, even when he was facing setbacks and. And getting trounced in the midterms, his personal popularity, how people viewed him as a person, really did stay high. So there's a great affection for Barack Obama and the way he practiced politics. And I also feel sometimes that I am. I had this great privilege of being part of this generation. They got to be part of the. That era of politics. And it was a great proving ground for people who saw politics as a place where you could genuinely. You could first of all, persuade people, you could change people's minds, you could surprise people, and you could do big things. And that being hopeful wasn't cringe. It just didn't have to be cringe. And I felt that being at the library, and I think a great question we have to answer is, okay, this was a model that was persuasive to the country twice. It was a model that led to a lot of progress, including the Affordable Care act, which, try as hard as they might, still stands. It also ultimately did not persuade enough people once Obama left the stage to continue. Right. And it led to a backlash and what I was thinking about as I was walking around that space is what are the ways in which this story of America, of organizing and steady progress and the power of democracy? What is it that led so many people to become cynical about it and to be willing to give someone like Donald Trump a chance? And that's why I get so animated when JD Vance says something like, oh, Nixon would have gotten away with it today. Because I, I do think there's a deeper, there's a deeper loss that we're, we're, we're, we're struggling with like, of, of a collective sense of values and decency and a belief that I'm going to play by the rules because I know you are and I trust you to do it. And how do we go, we were a high trust society that became a low trust society. How do we become a high trust society again? How do we trust that if we wait in line for our boarding group at the airport, everybody else will too, right? So we don't have to crowd. So we don't have to crowd the fucking gate.
- [36:48]
Joanna Coles
Right? You don't have to zip in through the priority boarding, even though you're don't have a priority pass, which I will confess, I do do.
- [36:55]
John Lovett
And I know that about you. And I know that about you. So that's what I, that was what my feeling was. Because it, it, I want, I, it to me like that getting people back to a place where they believe in that vision for America updated, of course, is I think our, our larger project.
- [37:13]
Joanna Coles
So what were the ex presidents saying about Donald Trump? I mean, I can't imagine the conversations that were going on.
- [37:20]
John Lovett
So I didn't, first of all, I didn't. They were, by the way, like behind glass on the stage. Did you see, did you see the, the, the, the moment where after it was over, Joe Biden went to the podium?
- [37:35]
Joanna Coles
Did you see? I did not, I did not see the. I did not see the moment. Please explain.
- [37:39]
John Lovett
So the event ends. It was awesome. It was long. It was almost three hours. Yeah. Bono, Bruce Springsteen, Stevie Wonder, a bunch of great performances. I'm forgetting legends even as I'm talking about it. Christina Aguilera and then at the very end. And by the way, Michelle gave an incredible speech. An incredible speech.
- [38:06]
Joanna Coles
I saw Michelle's speech and I love the fact that she referenced the fact that her husband got the Nobel Prize.
- [38:11]
John Lovett
Nobel Prize, Yeah, yeah. And then it all ended. And then everybody looked up and Joe Biden walked up to the podium and it was like, what's he doing up there. And I think he was just talking to people and waving at people. But there was this sort of like, I don't know, this tragic irony of the whole thing and like, Jill came back and like, walked him off and
- [38:34]
Joanna Coles
was it as if he thought he was still president?
- [38:37]
John Lovett
No, no, no. I think it was. I, I don't know what it was. It was just a little bit off. It was a little bit strange. I think he wanted to wave at people. I think he wanted his moment to see everybody. And Dave Weigel, who's a great reporter, he pointed this out, which is Joe Biden. He didn't get a convention in 2020 because of the pandemic. His inaugural had a Paul cast over it by the insurrection. By the time his next convention rolls around, Kamala is the nominee and he doesn't get a speaking spot till late in the night and was seen as somebody that people didn't want to hear from. Even though he was a policy had a great many achievements, he was a successful Democratic president. He, he played his hand on domestic policy as well as any president could. I genuinely believe that. I'm very critical of Joe Biden for his decision to run, but part of he, he deserves that credit. And then, you know, you know, he's an older person. He's, he's not, he's, he's not old.
- [39:36]
Joanna Coles
He's not in grand.
- [39:37]
John Lovett
So he's also, you know, at the library opening for the two term successful Barack Obama administration. He knows he's not seen as a successful president right now, and he may not be at a library like this where he's celebrated in the same way. So I just had a, like a, I had a, a sad feeling about Joe Biden in that moment. But on the whole, it was just a. I spent most of my time with all of the people I worked with when I was in the White House and seeing people I hadn't seen in a decade, seeing all the fellow White House speechwriters.
- [40:11]
Joanna Coles
So all the people who've gone off made a ton of money in tech then.
- [40:15]
John Lovett
So I. So, you know, the writers have done a lot of writing. I didn't see. I don't know who made money in tech and if they made money in tech, good for them. But it was, you know, the, I love speechwriting and I don't do it anymore, obviously, but I believe in it as a craft. And I was very fortunate because the 2007, 2008 Hillary Clinton Barack Obama primary was this slog and it was a great training Ground for a bunch of great people in both campaigns. And a lot of the great speechwriters that came out of that are still doing a lot of the speechwriting and Democratic politics. But it's just interesting to be around speechwriting at a time when you're hearing about AI, when you see a lot of just drek out there, and then you see Barack Obama give a great speech, you see Michelle Obama give a great speech, and then you see out there that Jon Ossoff is actually doing these great speeches. And it was fun to just be with the kind of writers in Democratic politics from a time before Trump when we cared about every word and made sure they were accurate and sent them to a research department in case they were. There was a problem in the remarks. Right. Like, just, it was, it was fun to sit in that time when there was, when people at the White House took their jobs really seriously and you knew that the person at the very top took it more seriously than anybody.
- [41:36]
Joanna Coles
Well, and the idea that we have a president now who has no idea what he's gonna say, he surprises himself when he speaks. He has no sense of, I think, what's gonna tumble out of his mouth next. And also when it doesn't, as you said earlier, make any sense and it's incoherent, he puts it down to the weave. He's already branded it as the Trump weave.
- [41:57]
John Lovett
Comcast is delivering extraordinary experiences in live sports through the incredible broadcast and storytelling from NBC, innovative and personalized viewing, features on Xfinity and Peacock, and the country's most reliable WI Fi. Viewers can enjoy every game changing, play faster and more, more seamlessly than ever, all in a network built to deliver unforgettable moments as close to live as possible. The ultimate experience for the American sports fan. Learn more@comcastcorporation.com sports so, so, John, who
- [42:28]
Joanna Coles
do you want to write for now? Who do you see as the, as the big Democratic hopefuls?
- [42:37]
John Lovett
There's. I don't, I don't know. I like to me the. Who is the right person. They are going to be the person that emerges from the big contentious primary that we're about to have. And that primary will be the, be the kiln that, like, we, we get the, the person out of. Because, you know, a lot of, I think the tension right now in the Democratic Party and a lot of the, the, the kind of brittle nature of the debate is in part because we just didn't have a big primary in 2024. And primaries are where we, we, we don't resolve our differences, but we hash them out and we, we. We fight our big battles. And then in the act of coming together so somebody will emerge, right? Joe Biden emerges from that primary in 2020, and then he extends a hand to Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and the left, and they find a way to work together. By the way, another, another point, I want to credit Joe Biden, that, that, that was a remarkable, an excellent sort of model of what it means to be a leader of a big movement, because he brought Bernie Sanders and he brought Elizabeth Warren and he brought in Lina Khan. He listened to the part of his support that wanted a more robust, kind of progressive, engaged Democratic administration when it came to the economy. And he really tried to listen and adapt as someone who was a real moderate his whole career. He really tried to listen to those people. And I think it really mattered. And so I want that to happen here, right? Like, whether it's, you know, you have Pritzker and Ossoff, you have Josh Shapiro, you have a bunch of other people that may run, and there'll be, I think, someone that carries the mantle of the left, that maybe that's aoc, maybe that's somebody else. And then we'll have the big debate about the direction the party should go. And then. And whatever comes of that, it'll be the obligation of those leaders and by the way, the supporters to come together and put pressure on whoever is that person to listen to the parts of the base that maybe didn't get their candidate, but also come together and do what it takes to win. And who's the right person to do that? I don't know.
- [44:54]
Joanna Coles
So I just came back from Cannes lion, the big advertising festival in the south of France, and I was sitting
- [45:00]
John Lovett
with what a life you have.
- [45:02]
Joanna Coles
Oh, what a life. What a life I have. Hustling for priority boarding. I'm crushed that you said you knew I did that. That's very crushing.
- [45:09]
John Lovett
I'm sorry, I didn't.
- [45:12]
Joanna Coles
But I was sitting at one dinner next to a very prominent Democratic donor, and he said that he thought the way for the Democrats to win now. And this was a man who was a big supporter of Joe Biden, big supporter of Biden, that. That a professional politician was not gonna work, that they didn't have anybody that was gonna be able to really get their arms around the party and that they should go for someone who was well known, famous celebrity, could match Trump's celebrity. Although Trump may not be running. Well, let's assume he's not running. So he was Thinking of someone like Peyton Manning. The two names he put forward were Peyton Manning and Doug McMillan, who was CEO of Walmart. Famous, you know, very competent, managerial CEO of Walmart. And I just, I wondered if there are any of those. I mean, he really is a prominent donor in the party. So I'm curious whether or not there are other conversations going on that you've heard or what you think about that idea that professional politicians just don't appeal to people anymore and that the sort of chink in the armor that Trump had was, I'm not a politician. I'm going to tell it like it is. I'm not going to behave like a regular president.
- [46:29]
John Lovett
So, you know, there's a, a lot of people want to cut the Gordian knot, right? They want to find this one weird trick for winning. And so, oh, people don't like politicians. So maybe we run someone who's not a politician. It's not a bad idea. I think if somebody who's a incredibly successful executive who has a lot to offer as a manager and by the way, can, can demonstrate like genuine progressive leadership as a corporate leader. Right? If they were pro union, if they did right by their people, like, I'm not against that on its face. Give it a shot, get in the race. That being said, my question would be about a donor at, in the south of France is how did, what was the kind of plane that that person took to get there and when was the last time that person was in a grocery store?
- [47:23]
Joanna Coles
I can assure you it was a private plane. I can assure you it was a private plane.
- [47:27]
John Lovett
Here's my thing. I don't, I, I think everybody should share their views, but people that are saying, oh, here's how, here's what's going to really work, here's what we need to do to win, here's what's going to appeal to people. If they haven't been to a grocery store or walk through a metal detector at a major airport in, say, a decade, I'm a little bit suspicious that they're not getting a lot of their ideas from the Internet. Do people, Are people frustrated by politicians? Yes. It's a little bit difficult to tease out what's going on with the Democratic Party right now. When we, you know, Joe Biden won, then Kamala has this hundred day sprint. She doesn't succeed, Barack Obama wins twice. What are people gonna want after Donald Trump is off the scene? Maybe it will be someone more traditional, maybe it will be someone more stap. Maybe it will be someone a Little bit boring and kind, who dots their T's and crosses their eyes and maybe sounds a little bit studied, sounds a little bit rehearsed. Because you know what? That's kind of safe, right? I don't know if that's right. But my view of it is nobody knows. Get in it. Like, get in the ring and be part of the fight. I will say one thing, I will say about all of this is personal. I'm not really interested in somebody riding in on a horse in 2027, 2028, if you weren't here in 2025 and 2026, speaking out about what Donald Trump was doing, if you kept your head down, popped up every once in a long while to say something. If I don't know right now the kind of fight you're willing to fight against this version of the Republican Party, I'm not really that interested in you leading this party into the next election because we're in a knockdown, drag out fight right now. And so, so if somebody wants to, to be the person that represents Democrats in the fight against rising authoritarianism, they got to be there doing it all along the way because not just because it's, I think, morally right, it's because the kind of person that should be leading the Democratic Party is so upset and, and angry and, and motivated that they couldn't stop themselves from being out there that they would never want to not say what they're feeling because they believe so strongly that we could be doing better than, than how we're doing. So anybody who's out there strategizing while keeping their mouth shut, like, you know what, thanks, but no thanks. That's how I feel about it. That's my personal view. That's my personal view. That doesn't mean that person couldn't, maybe others feel differently. That's how I feel about it.
- [50:07]
Joanna Coles
Yeah. Okay. How do you feel about the progressive wing? As we saw in New York this week, Mamdani's three candidates that he endorsed swept the board. Moderates out. Is that a sign of something larger in the party, do you think? Or do you think it's just about him and about New York?
- [50:28]
John Lovett
So I think, I think, like it's, I think just to introduce a little nuance. Right. Those, those, those candidates that lost wouldn't call themselves moderates. Dan Goldman was certainly too more towards the center on Israel than Brad Lander. SBI wouldn't call himself a moderate. Probably caught off guard by the fact that suddenly he's being seen as a moderate. Right. So, so Just Dan Goldman.
- [50:51]
Joanna Coles
Just to push back though. Dan Goldman was my Congressman. I mean I think he wanted the progressive voters. He wanted. He could see the way things were going, but he felt like a moderate. It.
- [51:00]
John Lovett
Yeah, but for my Medicare for all, take your point. It's somewhere. I'm just saying I think it's. I take your point. All I'm getting at is I think, I think the endorsements really mattered. Right. I think Mamdani has inspired a lot of people and is popular, especially among Democrats. And his, his voice really matters. What does it mean when three Democratic socialists win in three of the most liberal districts in the country or, or three left candidates win? Does that mean Josh Shapiro isn't one of the most popular governors in the country? No. Does that mean he represents the Democratic Party any less? Or Abigail Spamberger or Slotkin? Or that Sherrod Brown doesn't represent the Democratic Party and his race in Ohio as a kind of more old school Democratic populist on the economy? I don't think so. We're a big fractious, diverse coalition that's annoying to some people. The reason it's hard to have a coalition like that, the reason right wing movements, authoritarian movements are often able to succeed is because there are real important moral differences inside of a pro Democratic coalition. I think some of the things that Avila Chevalier have said are terrible. I'm glad she's walked some of them back. In the same way I was glad people gave Graham Platner the space to walk back some of the things he said. And I think people should be afforded, afforded the chance to explain themselves. But also people don't have to like everyone that's in, in part of this coalition and they don't have to agree with it. They can be really critical. Josh Shapiro was asked about it and I thought what he said was right. He said I have strong differences is it's not my district. You know, like he doesn't have to, he. Republicans want to make us own what everyone else says. They want to make everyone responsible for everyone. But you don't have to be. We don't have to accept that James Carville doesn't have to go out there and say we need a schism in the party because three socialists won in, because a socialist won in, in, in New York City. I don't think that changes what John Offset Ossoff represents or, or Kamala Harris represents. So that, that's where I see it. And so my, my, my feeling about it. Just two quick points about this. One, if establishment Leadership is upset that, that, that Democratic socialists are winning because they view some of the things they said as unacceptable. I would ask why the voters found your candidate even more unacceptable. Right. I think, I think it's worth asking that question from the other side.
- [53:37]
Joanna Coles
But isn't. Can I just point out though that is this about the way that the primaries are structured so that initially they brought the primaries forward in New York from the fall where they used to be, to the summer to June actually, with the goal of protecting the establishment. And in fact, it's had the opposite impact that you've got a small group that get people out to the vote. I mean, most people don't even know there's a primary going on in New York.
- [54:04]
John Lovett
It, that, that may be the case, but boy, wouldn't it be nice if Democratic, the Democratic Party had a enthusiastic base of support that was ready to show up all the time. Right. Like where, where? Right, like shouldn't there be, you know, there. It wasn't always the case that, that, that, that, you know, bro, again, Barack Obama, 96% approval rating. He's not a far left candidate, but he was ideologically unifying and inspiring to, to people. So maybe that's the case, but it doesn't change the problem on the other side of it. Right. Like, I'm not a Democratic socialist, but I think they've done something really impressive in New York. They've really figured out how to build power. But. And how have they done it? Well, it's by fighting Democrats as it should be. Right. They're, they're inside, they're, they're a faction inside the broad left coalition. But I do think in an organization that is instinctively built to fight Democrats as it gains more sway, needs to, to grow into being part of the fight with Democrats against Republicans. And that's really important too. Part of that is, is about coming together and unifying, which by the way, I think people like AOC and Bernie Sanders have been extraordinarily responsible and good about. But it's also about knowing that you know what, like the, the, you're, you should speak your mind. And if you're further to left than a moderate in Ohio, that's not your problem. You should speak your mind and say what you believe. That's politics. But also you should know that your words will be taken out of context by Fox News. That's not fair. But that's life. And so everyone, I think has, I think, an obligation to be good members of this coalition. That applies to, I think, centrist leaders. Who told everyone to vote blue, no matter who, but are now complaining at a socialist, one that applies to, I think, people on the left that have a bit more fun attacking Democrats because of the narcissism of small differences.
- [55:57]
Joanna Coles
The narcissism of small differences. All right, so we're coming up for July 4th. It's the end of the week. What are you planning to do? Are you going to the state fair? Are you going to go and reflect in the reflecting pool?
- [56:10]
John Lovett
Not a lot of reflecting going on the reflecting pool. Look, I'm gonna go see fireworks here in beautiful California, one of the two greatest states in the country. I'll be here in California, a state with, with beautiful beaches. And as of today, our warehouse fire has been extinguished, so we'll celebrate that. But.
- [56:32]
Joanna Coles
So the air is. The air is free to breathe.
- [56:36]
John Lovett
It's certainly getting better. But yeah, the. It's such a bummer, you know, so, so there was the Congress created something called America 250, and that was a bipartisan group to help figure out what the events were going to be around the fourth. Trump then creates his own competing group called Freedom250 and politicizes America's Independence Day, our 250th birthday.
- [57:07]
Joanna Coles
And
- [57:09]
John Lovett
again, we'll look at all the things Trump is doing. The fact that he gives a partisan speech that his, his Secretary of Transportation calls the musicians who canceled libtards all that. They. That he's politicized the whole thing and made him about. Made it about him. And that stinks. But I, I do think it's worth taking a moment to say, wow, like, okay, these are all the ways in which Trump has. Has made this about him and made it. Made it worse. What about the alarm that's not going off about how great it could have been to have literally any other president at this moment to have a big, unifying, patriotic event that would have been across the whole country. You know, that organization, America 250 is still doing events. They're just smaller. They're not, you know, you just don't hear that much about them. But what a great shame it is that we have this kind of depraved person in charge. I don't think, like, if George W. Bush were president right now, I think some aspects of what they would have done for America's 250th would have probably annoyed me. There were like, a little bit of politics would have gotten in there. By the way, I think if Barack Obama were President, did America 250 there would be parts of it that annoyed Republicans. But you would know that they would take the responsibility of representing the whole country seriously to understood that this wasn't just about them or their political prerogatives. That it's a rare moment where you could have actually had a beautiful like American patriotic celebration. I'll be cringe and say that I'm sad that we don't get to have that. But instead we have this ridiculous incompetent boob. The Ferris wheel isn't working. The reflecting pool is green, the ice cream is melting. Nobody's showing up. States feel like they should cancel and they're right to do so. Nobody wants to be associated with this guy and it's just a big bummer. I was thinking about the Ferris wheel in the Chicago State Fair 100 and some odd years ago. More. They built the first Ferris wheel. Ferris built the wheel and it was a marvel. Right? It was this beautiful amazing thing. People could not believe that this giant structure moved. We set out to have a world's fair and we were going to build something that rivaled the Eiffel Tower. And then it happened. They built a moving Eiffel Tower in the middle of Chicago and it was a marvel. The whole world got to see it. It should said look at what America is going to be. Oh, you Europeans think of us as some backwater full of hicks. We're about to eat your lunch. We're going to build buildings that touch the sky. We're going to be the greatest country in the world. And then we did it. And now we have this fucking maniac moron in charge erecting a two bit Ferris wheel on an empty national mall. And it is making me really mad and sad, honestly. And I know it's just a party and we got bigger fish to fry, but I do think it's okay to take a moment and say, you know what? Like this is a dark moment and it is a shame that we have fallen so low that this is what it would look like to forever for how we marked an important milestone in the history of the country. That's where I'm at. And I hope they fix the pool.
- [60:18]
Joanna Coles
Wow, John Lovett, that was fantastic. John Lovett. Well, have fun at your fireworks in California.
- [60:27]
John Lovett
I will.
- [60:28]
Joanna Coles
And I will tell you that the Eiffel Tower in Paris where I am right now is closed because the heat is so strong. They will not let people go up there.
- [60:37]
John Lovett
And by the way, Europeans stick their nose up at us. How about you get some air conditioning?
- [60:42]
Joanna Coles
Yeah, please get air conditioning.
- [60:43]
John Lovett
Get some air conditioning. All right.
- [60:44]
Joanna Coles
Please get air conditioning. It's a disaster. It's a disaster. So do you have a favorite firework? John, do you have a favorite firework?
- [60:54]
John Lovett
I don't have a favorite firework, but I'm a sucker for the finale. I love the moment where it's like, let's let it rip. Let's let it rip. I love it. I love it.
- [61:04]
Joanna Coles
Well, have fun at your July 4th, and I hope that you will come back on the podcast soon.
- [61:10]
John Lovett
Thanks for having me. We'd love to. Good to see you.
- [61:17]
Joanna Coles
I love hearing from John Lovett. His passion, passion just comes through. And every generation has its own version of America. America is always changing. I guess the question is, can we carry on writing it together? Well, enjoy your fireworks wherever you're having them. We'll be back with David Rothkop tomorrow. He's bringing fireworks all on his own. I think his favorite firework is probably the Roman candle. That's what I'm guessing. Anyway, and if you have been, thank you for joining us. Big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Pasar, Heather Passaro, and Neil Raisinhouse. So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support.
- [62:05]
John Lovett
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
- [62:27]
Joanna Coles
of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com this episode is brought to you by Google Health. Stop chasing someone else's definition of health. What matters is what's healthy for you. Google Health offers a new kind of coach built with Gemini for effortless tracking, sleep insights and holistic coaching tailored to you. Visit googlestore.com to learn more and start a new relationship with your health. Requires Google account, Google Health app Internet and Google Health premium subscription. Features subject to change. Availability and results vary. Not intended for medical purposes. Works independently of Gemini apps. Check responses for accuracy.
- [63:05]
John Lovett
Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets? Yes.
- [63:10]
Joanna Coles
Good.
- [63:11]
John Lovett
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