How Trump is Turning Kirk Tragedy into Power Grab

Summary

The Daily Beast Podcast: "How Trump is Turning Kirk Tragedy into Power Grab"

Host: Joanna Coles
Guests: Hugh Docherty (Executive Editor, The Daily Beast), David Rothkopf (Former Clinton admin, ex-Editor, Foreign Policy)
Release Date: September 16, 2025

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Overview

This episode delves into the political aftermath of right-wing commentator Charlie Kirk’s murder, focusing on how Donald Trump and his allies are attempting to leverage the tragedy to consolidate power and push an authoritarian agenda. The discussion covers chaos in law enforcement ranks, the use—and misuse—of information in the age of instant media, the rising profile of Republican Governor Spencer Cox, the upcoming Trump state visit to the UK, and a broader examination of violence and blame in American politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Fallout over Charlie Kirk’s Murder

Timestamp: 01:58–11:59

• Law Enforcement in Turmoil:

  • New FBI Director Kash Patel is under fire for incompetence, lack of experience, and a self-promotional style that has alienated both agents within the FBI and the broader MAGA movement.
  • His televised “Save My Job” tour follows a botched social media post naming an innocent suspect, while dining at an exclusive NYC restaurant (Rao’s), far from the unfolding manhunt.

  “No one has really ever thought Kash Patel was up for this job. He has no experience in this area, really, to speak of. He was primarily seen as a provocateur and as a podcaster.” — David Rothkopf [09:11]

  • A failed promise of transparency (“live blogging” arrests instead of delivering facts) further damaged trust in the FBI.

  “We don't expect a live blog. We expect accurate facts.” — Hugh Docherty [07:02]

  • Tension and resentment are rampant after purges of agents associated with January 6th investigations.

• MAGA Intrigue:

  • Patel faces a whisper campaign led by allies of Attorney General Pam Bondi (believed to have “never actually… had confidence in him”) and the looming presence of Andrew Bailey, a replacement option amenable to Trump loyalists.

  “He’s really trying to own the idea that the arrest was down to his actions. MAGA people who are not getting behind this say, well, it was just luck he got the, you know, the father turned in the suspect. And that’s not brilliant police work.” — Hugh Docherty [11:59]

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2. Transparency, Trust, and Authoritarian Reactions

Timestamp: 16:15–20:17

• Transparency vs. Accuracy:

  • Patel’s defense of public “transparency” is challenged: law enforcement must preserve trust by being accurate above all, particularly after historical disgrace (e.g., J. Edgar Hoover era).

  “Transparency is a great thing. The other answer is that the FBI are the premier law enforcement organization maybe in the world... because you trust them.” — Hugh Docherty [16:32]

  • “Transparency” is attacked as a fig leaf if statements are untrue.

  “It’s not transparency if what you’re saying is a lie.” — David Rothkopf [17:58]

• Power Grab Allegations:

  • Trump and close allies (notably Stephen Miller and J.D. Vance) are accused of using Kirk’s death as a pretext to increase executive power and target political enemies—a playbook compared to historical authoritarian overreaches.

  “The real story this week is not mourning Charlie Kirk, it’s how is this administration going to use the death of Charlie Kirk as an excuse to overreach, to target their enemies, to gain more and more executive powers.” — David Rothkopf [19:35]

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3. Governor Spencer Cox’s National Emergence

Timestamp: 20:17–26:07

• A New Face on the National Stage:

  • Utah’s Governor Spencer Cox is lauded for his measured response at the press conference, prioritizing unity over political posturing.

  “He was masterful in the way that he took over from Kash Patel at the press conference… We must get together and talk about this. And it felt very reassuring.” — Joanna Coles [20:17]

  • Decades-long Republican roots, but nuanced positions on LGBTQ issues, abortion, and social media; considered a potential new model for the GOP’s future.
  • Amusing personal trivia: Cox is related to an Osmond brother.

• Cautious Optimism and Media Critique:

  • Rothkopf is skeptical about the media’s embrace of Cox, warning that Trump’s camp would quickly stifle competition. He notes that the Kirk funeral/MAGA rally in Arizona will likely dominate the coming news cycle.

  “If other people in the media agree with you, Trump will put the kibosh on him. They'll bury this guy because they won’t want the competition…” — David Rothkopf [26:38]

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4. The Politicization of Tragedy & Online Rage

Timestamp: 28:28–34:05

• Funeral as MAGA Rally:

  • The upcoming Kirk memorial/funeral is described as a “world’s first funeral slash MAGA rally,” illustrating the fusion of political spectacle with personal tragedy.

  “You’re going to end up with the world's first funeral slash MAGA rally. And it’s gotta be pretty hideous.” — David Rothkopf [27:56]

• Social Media Backlash:

  • Anger is flaring online, with MAGA supporters targeting those not mourning Kirk. Cancel culture tactics are weaponized by the right against critics or those promoting less sympathetic responses.

  “On social media, there’s a whole lot of anger… and the danger here is much, much wider than that.” — Hugh Docherty [29:12]

• Distorted Narratives:

  • Attempts to pin political violence on the left are debunked; studies and recent events show a clear trend of right-wing violence.

  “The reality is that every major study that's been done… show that most of the violence... comes from the far right.” — David Rothkopf [30:47]

  • Recent left-of-center firings (over merely quoting Kirk) are cited as evidence of a chilling intolerance.

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5. America’s Violence Crisis: Mental Health, Not Just Politics

Timestamp: 34:05–36:32

• Beyond Ideology:

  • Analysis pivots to the deep structural issues of violence—mental health, gun access, alienation—rather than the simplistic left-versus-right narrative.

  “America's gun violence problem doesn't have to do with political violence. It has to do with primarily young men who have access to guns and who don't have access to mental health care… alienated from their society.” — David Rothkopf [34:40]

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6. Trump’s London State Visit: Power, Prestige, and Parody

Timestamp: 37:45–51:22

• Theatrical Spectacle:

  • Trump’s state visit with King Charles is expected to be a pageant—gilded rooms, parades, Melania meeting Princess Kate—a playground for Trump’s love of spectacle and status.

  “He's going to be absolutely in love with the spectacle. He loves the spectacle. And if anybody’s got more gold than than he does, it is, of course, the British royal family.” — Hugh Docherty [38:18]

  • Coles and Docherty muse humorously on Trump’s etiquette, Charles’s gardening, bruised hands, and the quirks of royal protocol.
  • Deep undercurrent: Trump’s affinity for collecting the trappings of office, and his attempt to turn power into personal mythology.

  “The whole idea of the ballroom is so the 900 people celebrate him. And what could be… where do you learn how to treat ridiculous people ridiculously? But in England worshiping royal family, which is a vestige of this kind of idiocy that should long ago have disappeared…” — David Rothkopf [43:14]

• Epstein Subtext:

  • Lingering controversies in both US and UK political circles relate to Jeffrey Epstein, complicating the optics and logistics of the visit.

  “The real story here, which is the Epstein subtext—with Prince Andrew and with Mandelson and with Trump and with the whole royal, you know, all the turmoil in the royal family around Prince Andrew…” — David Rothkopf [45:41]

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7. Themes of Power, Aging, and Change

Timestamp: 47:23–51:45

• Old Guard vs. New Faces:

  • The episode closes with reflections on the aging leadership of Trump and Charles versus the symbolic presence of Melania and Kate, hinting at generational transition pressures in both nations.

  “Two old white guys, indeed...But there will be a completely different perspective on this because we will also see two much younger and incredibly famous women hanging out together...” — Hugh Docherty [47:47]

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Memorable Quotes

• On Law Enforcement Dysfunction:

  • “He has no experience in this area, really, to speak of. He was primarily seen as a provocateur and as a podcaster.”
    — David Rothkopf [09:11]

• On Faux Transparency:

  • “It’s not transparency if what you’re saying is a lie.”
    — David Rothkopf [17:58]

• On Authoritarian Impulses:

  • “What you really see here is that there is a move... not to solve the crime, not to be transparent, but actually to use the crime as a justification for their authoritarian power grab.”
    — David Rothkopf [19:35]

• On the Meaning of the Kirk Funeral:

  • “You’re going to end up with the world’s first funeral slash MAGA rally.”
    — David Rothkopf [27:56]

• On Political Violence:

  • “The reality is that every major study... show that most of the violence... comes from the far right.”
    — David Rothkopf [30:47]

• On National Leaders:

  • “Two old white guys, indeed. Both with… well, certainly the president has a lot of power. The king technically doesn't have a lot of power, thanks to hundreds of years of history.”
    — Hugh Docherty [47:47]

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Notable Moments and Humor

• On Trump and Etiquette:

  • “He actually managed to walk in front of (the Queen), which is something you do not do…” — Hugh Docherty [38:18]
  • “There was a recent story that 11 out of 12 of his (Charles’) gardeners had felt that he wasn’t treating them as well as perhaps he could have done.” — Joanna Coles [39:59]

• On Royal Family Flexibility:

  • “If you need to divorce your wife, you set up your own church. Henry VIII… If you need to get rid of a problematic king, then you invent the idea of abdication and send him off to France with his American wife.” — Hugh Docherty [49:34]

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Summary

This episode paints a vivid picture of a country at a crossroads—where politics, personal ambition, and media spectacle intersect. The murder of Charlie Kirk is not just a tragedy but a pivot point, as Trump and allies manipulate events to fortify their agenda, while basic institutions like the FBI are wracked with scandal and distrust. New political figures like Governor Cox may signal the possibility of change, but are ultimately constrained by a volatile, narrative-driven landscape. The episode rounds out with a sharply satirical lens on Trump’s upcoming exploits abroad, leaving listeners with both a deep sense of unease about the current moment and a bemused observation on the rituals of power.

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Transcript

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[David Rothkopf]

The reality is that every major study that's been done, whether it's been done by the Anti Defamation League, which is kind of vaguely pro Trump these days, or it's been done by the FBI in the past, or it's been done by other, you know, legal specialists, show that most of the violence that's done political violence in the United States comes from the far right.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. What an extraordinary week it's been in America. Is this a watershed moment? We're here to discuss Hugh Docherty, our executive editor, who's been monitoring our incredibly busy news coverage over the last few days. And the brilliant David Rothkop, former member of the Clinton administration and a former editor of Foreign Policy magazine, who's well sourced throughout D.C. and who can shed light and always brings a very helpful perspective on really the remarkable events of the last few days. Huey, what else are we going to be talking about? Something else is going on this week.

[Hugh Docherty]

Something else is going on this week, Joanna. Donald Trump is leaving the country and he is going to London where he is going to have a state visit with King Charles, a man with more gold than the Oval Office, more properties than the Trumps, but much less power than the president.

[Joanna Coles]

And he I'm very curious to know if King Charles will raise the subject of Donald Trump paving over Jackie Kennedy's rose garden.

[Hugh Docherty]

He is known as the plant whisperer because he literally speaks to plants and he cannot be pleased about any lawns being removed.

[Joanna Coles]

And I just can't imagine what the two of them talk about when they meet each other.

[Hugh Docherty]

Well, we don't have to imagine. We will soon find out exactly what happens between them.

[Joanna Coles]

You mean because Donald Trump will tell us.

[Hugh Docherty]

Because Donald Trump will tell us. Yes. There are some certainties in life, death, taxes. And that Donald Trump will tell us.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, that Donald Trump won't stop talking.

[Hugh Docherty]

He will not stop talking.

[Joanna Coles]

All right, let's get into it. Normally, Hugh Docherty, our executive editor at the Beast and I would be joining David Rothkopf in his beautiful book lined library, but David has had an auto emergency and he's actually at the shop, but persuaded him to talk to us. Regardless, David, thank you. And I have to say, your auto shop looks a lot smarter than mine.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, you're, you're, you're, you're very, you're very kind and you're very kind to distract me from sitting around waiting for my car to be ready.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, we're excited to talk to you. There's so much going on. Hugh, I will volunteer, has been glued to Fox Watching Kash Patel's tour. It's not an apology tour. What is it?

[Hugh Docherty]

I think cynics might say, Joanna, that it is a Save my Job tour. Kaj Patel, of course, before he was FBI director, had a distinguished career as, among other things, a cigar entrepreneur, a children's book author. Maga. Children's book author, a podcaster, not as distinguished as anybody that I am broadcasting, speaking to here, and also a T.

[Joanna Coles]

Shirt hawker, but didn't used to sell maga merch.

[Hugh Docherty]

Maga merch. And it was Branded cash K, a dollar sign H. Right.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. So now he's head of the FBI. Yes.

[Hugh Docherty]

And that promotion has proved a bit tricky for him. He has been the subject of a whispering campaign inside the MAGA world that Pam Bondi, the attorney General, has lost confidence in him and that they are preparing for him to be replaced by Andrew Bailey, who is a newly appointed deputy. So he's been on the Fox and Friends sofa this morning and he will be on with Sean Hannity later. And it really is an attempt to save his job is how people are seeing it.

[Joanna Coles]

And Andrew Bailey was brought in as a to sort of job. Share with Dan Bongino, formerly a podcaster, currently number two at the FBI, because Dan Bongino, like Kash Patel, have long been supporters of Release Epstein files.

[Hugh Docherty]

Right. And Kash Patel has been very damaged inside the MAGA world by the Epstein fallout. He said, you know, he and Dan Bongino, when they were in private life, were inflaming this situation and they were talking about release the secrets, tell the truth. They then got the opportunity to release the secrets and promptly told maga. Oh, in fact, we're not releasing any secrets and there aren't any interesting ones anyway. And we'd all like you to move on, but people have not.

[Joanna Coles]

Is Dan Bongino also part of the whispering campaign?

[Hugh Docherty]

It looks like Dan Bongino and Cash Patel probably come as a joint deal, but it's Cash Patel who's definitely got his head above the parapet on this one.

[Joanna Coles]

So he's been doing the rounds of the Fox News sofas.

[Hugh Docherty]

Yes. And he went on Fox and Friends. And it was, by Fox and Friends standards, this is normally a very friendly environment for those who are part of the Trump world. He was asked a fairly direct question by Brian Kilmeade, who asked him, why did you post on X that there had been an arrest of a possible suspect? And it turned out that this was completely wrong. This person was entirely innocent. And he said, I was just keeping people up to date. But that's not really what we expect from the head of the FBI. We don't expect a live blog. We expect accurate facts. And, and I think didn't NBC report.

[Joanna Coles]

That when he was doing that, he was actually tucking in to a delicious meal at Rao's, the almost impossible to get a table restaurant. It's only got, I think, eight tables. They're all already subscribed to people. And to get a seat at Rao's comes with incredible cachet. John F. Kennedy or John Kennedy Jr. Used to have a table there.

[Hugh Docherty]

Yes, exactly. He posted this on Twitter at 621 Eastern Time. And as soon as the doors opened on this incredibly exclusive restaurant, which is basically a private club in Manhattan, he was spotted going in. It's known for, among other things, it's meatballs and it's sauce. But it's certainly an eyebrow raising aspect of this that the head of the FBI was not anywhere near the manhunt. He was not at FBI headquarters. He was not at Quantico. He was in New York, dining in a very exclusive venue.

[Joanna Coles]

So, David, you have plenty of sauces. Not tomato sauces, I hasten to add from Rao's. Well, you may have Rao's tomato sauce because they do actually bottle. It's delicious. Quite expensive. It is rather good. But you have plenty of law enforcement sources, intelligence sources. You are a fixture on the Washington landscape. And I know you talk to lots of people. What are they saying about Cash Patel?

[David Rothkopf]

Well, no one has really ever thought Kash Patel was up for this job. He has no experience in this area, really, to speak of. He was primarily seen as a provocateur and as a podcaster. You know, earlier you mentioned that Pam Bondi is losing confidence in him. I'm not 100% sure that she or anybody ever actually had confidence in him. And I think people were waiting for, you know, the first issue to come up where he would reveal himself to be incompetent. As it happens, that's this issue where a friend of his was murdered and he both managed, you know, this kind of feat of appearing too close to this in a way that actually may have some legal consequences and also, you know, too out of touch to actually know what was going on. And so, you know, he, he within the FBI, of course, over the course of the past couple of weeks, as you know, people have seen, or months, even as people have seen the firings that have gone on because people were involved, for example, in the January6 investigations. There is a huge amount of resentment among FBI agents towards Kash Patel, and that's only been compounded. He and Bongino got onto a call, which I think he reported about at the Beast, to say, you've got to find the guy. There's a lot of pressure on us and it was profanity laden. And that also alienated more people within the FBI to think that he's not competent because he's not competent.

[Joanna Coles]

That's rather depressing conclusion. I mean, can I just. Having covered many of these types of events, not perhaps as big as Charlie Kirk. But certainly having covered crimes in states across the country, I mean, I have some sympathy for law enforcement because this isn't always very straightforward who's done it. I mean, yes, there was a picture. I mean, Kash Patel seemed absolutely furious that they hadn't shown him the picture as soon as they had it. And they'd obviously delayed giving it to him. But they did release the photo, which carries its own burden, because often people come up with false leads. Right. And they did get the guy. I mean, they may have got him because his family gave him up, but within 30 hours, the alleged killer had been taken into custody.

[Hugh Docherty]

I think the Cash Patel of this is that there is clearly he has a major problem with his FBI agents, that they do not respect or trust him. And we don't really know the full truth of this 12 hours delay in giving him the photo. But he had just tweeted something that was wrong and badly wrong and potentially set back the investigation. So it's conceivable and understandable that FBI agents might not pass him material in case he tweets it. He's also aggressively trying to claim that this was an amazing investigation at his direction. He used the words me, my, and I, I believe, 15 or 16 separate times in this, in the course of an eight, seven or eight minute interview on Fox. And he's really trying to own the idea that the arrest was down to his actions. Maga. People who are not getting behind this say, well, it was just luck he got the, you know, the father turned in the suspect. And that's not brilliant police work.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I suppose if he does get fired, we're all podcasters, so we might get offered the director of the FBI.

[Hugh Docherty]

Joanna, I can think of nobody better, but I think I just like Hand David Rothkoff.

[Joanna Coles]

David, I think, would you like to be head of the FBI?

[David Rothkopf]

No, but I will work when you become the head of the FBI. Joanna, I would be very happy to work for you.

[Joanna Coles]

God help us if that happens. That's all I'm saying. Cash Patel might be incompetent running it. I'm not saying I would do it any better. And what do we think of Andrew Bailey, potential replacement, currently sharing the job with Dan Bongino as the number two.

[Hugh Docherty]

Well, the advantages he brings is that he's absolutely maga. There's no doubts about his loyalties. He was Attorney General of a very conservative state, Missouri, where he was a very conservative Attorney General. And the ability to manage things is clearly, clearly a problem for Cash Patel and Dan Bongino. As for how he is viewed in national security circles, David, I'll defer to you on that.

[Joanna Coles]

David, what do you know about Andrew Bailey?

[David Rothkopf]

Well, no, I mean, he's seen as a conservative politician. I think he's probably more in tune as a former attorney general with Pam Bondi. And Pam Bondi has, over time, really solidified her relationship with Trump by demonstrating herself to be his lawyer, following through, defending him in all things. And I think Kash Patel got into this because he was sort of bright light in the MAGA universe, not because he was particularly well suited to this. Whereas if Pam Bondi got to remake this inner image, a guy like Bailey makes more sense. Having said that, I don't think he's going to be extremely well trusted among most FBI agents. These purges have really done a lot of damage. And their, their lack of concern for, you know, the business of the FBI sending FBI agents into Washington, D.C. for example, or putting them on to, you deal with Trump administration priorities has taken them away from their core jobs. The FBI has been asked not to really track foreign, you know, espionage in ways that it, that it did in the past. Other things that have been extremely important to the FBI and are extremely important to the national security community have gotten shunted aside because their agenda is political. And I don't think putting Bailey in this position is going to diminish skepticism that much. Although, having said that, Cash Patel's a terrible choice and, you know, Bailey is somewhat more competent. So we're going to go from the bottom of the barrel to a little above the bottom of the barrel.

[Joanna Coles]

Is there anything in Kash Patel about him claiming that the reason he tweeted out, and I totally get that he tweeted out the wrong thing, but his argument that we are trying to be transparent, we're trying to tell people what's going on?

[Hugh Docherty]

Well, I think there are, there are two answers. There's many answers to that. There's two, there's two answers to that. And one is, that sounds like a good idea. It sounds like a helpful idea. Transparency is a great thing. The other answer is that the FBI are the premier law enforcement organization maybe in the world, because you trust them. You trust that what they say is true. And one of the big problems that Pam Bondi and her prosecutors, specifically in Washington, D.C. are finding is that they can't get, they can't get indictments past grand juries on their chosen causes. And the diminution of trust in the FBI is extremely dangerous. And the reason not to be transparent in real time is because you need to be sure it's true and it's right and it's accurate because people need to trust the FBI. And if people stop trusting the FBI, then they can't, you know, it's a. It attacks the basis of prosecutions. It's a difficult path to go down for an organization that spent. David Jewell have far greater historical context on this than I do. But 50 years ago, it was in a disgraceful position after J. Edgar Hoover and after Nixon, and it really has clawed its way back and made itself an organization people trust.

[David Rothkopf]

Yeah, it certainly has improved its reputation from the days of J. Edgar Hoover. But having said that, reputations are easily destroyed. And when you have an FBI director who's going out and spreading things that aren't true, you know, he says it's transparency, but it's not transparency if what you're saying is a lie. Right. It's not. It's, you know, just giving words doesn't. Doesn't create transparency. You actually have to give perspectives on the truth. And they've tried to be ahead of this story for political reasons, and that continues to be an issue. You know, I thought it was quite interesting that Governor Cox of Utah yesterday spent a lot of his time on morning shows saying we don't know what the motive is yet, whereas Patel and these others have been trying to attribute a motive, trying to say that this is political. You know, and, you know, I mean, J.D. vance took over Charlie Kirk's podcast today, had on Stephen Miller, and they were talking about, you know, you, you know, the left being behind all of this violence and turning the power of the government against the left. And so, you know, what you really see here is that there is a move from Trump and from Miller and from J.D. vance and from a lot of these people not to solve the crime, not to be transparent, but actually to use the crime as a justification for their authoritarian power grab. And the real story this week is not mourning Charlie Kirk, it's how is this administration going to use the death of Charlie Kirk as an excuse to overreach, to target their enemies, to gain more and more executive powers. That it's, it's, it's a trigger. And, you know, if it's not quite the Reichstag moment some people are calling it, it's the same exact game where you look for an excuse to grab power. And that's what's going on right now.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, you mentioned Spencer Cox, Governor Cox of Utah, who I thought was masterful in the way that he took over from Kash Patel at the press conference when they announced that they'd got him. And of course, he used the phrase we got him reminiscent of George Bush talking about Saddam Hussein. And he is a moderate Republican. And it's been extraordinary to see him emerge. I mean, he's been a governor that's been very much under the national rad. Are extremely critical of Trump in the past. He was a supporter of Marco Rubio. When Marco Rubio in 2016 didn't carry on with the race, he then switched his allegiance to Ted Cruz. He said he would never vote for Hillary Clinton, but he also wouldn't vote for Donald Trump. And suddenly he finds himself in the spotlight. And I thought he was very impressive at that press conference, letting Cash Patel do his thing and then leaning, literally leaning on the podium and saying, okay, social media is not real. Get the grass under your feet. Go out there. Democrats and Republicans have been calling me. They're telling me they're talking about this. We must get together and talk about this. And it felt very reassuring. Okay, Hughie, just hold on one second. We're going to take some messages.

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[Joanna Coles]

We love hearing from our sponsors. We're back talking about what else? The chaos that is contemporary America.

[Hugh Docherty]

Well, this is a, this is a really intriguing moment with Spencer Cox coming forward onto the national stage. It is quite possible for the governor of Utah to speak to the people of Utah and nobody else to notice.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Hugh Docherty]

And we haven't really seen much of him. He, he did a kind of media tour in 2023 with Jared Paulus, who's the Democratic governor of Colorado. Obviously the neighboring states and Their theme was disagree better. So he's coming forward and he's presenting a different version of being a modern Republican. And he has done it in a way that has clearly resonated with people about social media. He, I think is going to get people talking about presidential candidacies. Whether he's interested, not we don't know, but it's certainly something that people are going to start talking about.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I think he's a sort of riveting figure. I mean, having not known anything about him, I've frantically been reading up on him. And the most exciting thing that I want to share with both of you, although you may have known this, is he's related to an Osmond. He's related to Merrill Osmond, one of the Osmond brothers. Not as good looking as Donny Osmond.

[Hugh Docherty]

But there's only one Donnie Osmond.

[Joanna Coles]

Has anyone done it? Johnny Osmond. But his brother in law is actually Meryl Osmond's, which I found really intriguing. But he's also fascinating character. Got into Harvard Law School, didn't go to Harvard Law School. Is Utah educated through and through. Married to his college sweetheart. They have four kids. It's a very Utah story. Anti abortion, but in fact banned laws that would have forbidden trans students from taking part in sports on the grounds that there were only four trans students in the state. And he said, you know, most of them are actually struggling to stay alive. There's a 56% suicide rate among this group. And so he sounds like. And he's actually passed various legislations to help LGBQT groups. So he's a very nuanced Republican governor, I think of the kind we haven't seen for a long time.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, well, let's be.

[Joanna Coles]

I know David doesn't agree with me here. You think I've been seduced by Governor Cox. And I'm, I do.

[David Rothkopf]

And I, I think it's the Osmond connection, which it mesmerized it. But, but, but, but, you know, I mean, is he more nuanced than Donald Trump? Yes. You know, is he a conservative Republican who by, you know, sort of any normal Republican standards prior to 10 years ago would have been considered pretty far. Right? Yes. You know, part of the sort of sensitivity on the, the issues of gay people in Utah has to do with the fact that historically gay people were treated pretty badly by the Mormon Church. And there were some real problems that took place at Brigham Young University and these other places across Utah. And they responded to it and they responded in a constructive way, I believe you know, he is a genuinely, you know, unlike Trump, who talks about religion, you know, as if he were reading it off of a cue card and.

[Joanna Coles]

While holding the Bible upside down.

[David Rothkopf]

Right. Well, that. Yeah, right. June 1, 20, 2020, when he did that, when he walked across to the church at his daughter's suggestion, it wasn't even his own idea. You know, I think he genuinely believes these things. And who knows? I think it's quite possible that Trump and Miller and Vance and all these other people go far, too far, even for the Republican Party. And you get on your way to 2028 to people starting to say, well, you know, can we do something a little better than that? Marco Rubio, who I think is trying to position himself to be, that has undermined his credibility a great deal by, you know, turning into a poodle for Trump. And so somebody like this guy might emerge. Now, having said that, you know, you're saying, oh, I see him, and he's great, and he's a great alternative to Trump. You know, if other people in the media agree with you, Trump will put the kibosh on him. You know, they'll bury this guy because they won't want the competition for Trump. And, and I would note that, you know, a lot of this story in the past week has been in Utah, but in this next week, the funeral is taking place in Arizona. And I think the story is going to shift and it will allow them to change the cast of characters a little bit to suit the president, who's actually going to the funeral on Sunday at the Arizona Cardinals NFL football stadium. And, you know, I think what you're going to end up with is the world's first funeral slash MAGA rally.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[David Rothkopf]

And it's gotta be pretty hideous.

[Hugh Docherty]

It's. Well, the Sunday event has been described as a memorial service.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Hugh Docherty]

But I don't think we actually right now have precise details of how that is. Then followed by a private service of, you know, at his church. He was a mainline Protestant, although he had recently been attending Catholic church with his wife, who is a Catholic. So we think are slightly unclear on that, but we definitely are getting a Trump rally.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I saw Kerry Lake getting very excited that something is going to be happening.

[David Rothkopf]

He's fantastic, isn't she? She was saying that the reason this guy killed Charlie Kirk was because he was corrupted by college education and that mothers should not send their children to college because they could end up being killers.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, as a mother, I would say that if I, I would be nervous about having a child go to that rally. Actually, I think that it's scary to be in big crowds of people right now, especially people who are angry.

[Hugh Docherty]

I think.

[David Rothkopf]

No, no doubt.

[Hugh Docherty]

I think the point you make about crowds and angry is we are seeing the reaction to Charlie Kirk's death is playing out. We will see this huge event, clearly. Huge event with Trump at it. But we're also seeing it play out on social media, the thing that the governor, Spencer Cox, was so vehemently speaking out against. But on social media, there's a whole lot of anger, and it's directed from Charlie Kirk supporters from MAGA towards people who are criticizing Charlie Kirk and saying that they don't want to share in that grief. And I think as a moment of danger, there are certainly. There's certainly going to be a huge security presence at this funeral, but it may well be that the danger here is much, much wider than that.

[Joanna Coles]

And the danger is on social media.

[Hugh Docherty]

Dangers on social media. And the danger is that that social media is being used to target people who do not agree with the grief over Charlie Kirk. And that would appear to be what used to be called cancel culture and used to be the thing opposed by the right.

[Joanna Coles]

And the president of the Oxford Union, who's just about to take up his position, has got into trouble for saying Charlie Kirk lol, and claiming that in the speed of the moment and the height of the moment, he sort of jumped in and various people have reported him, and now there are calls for him to resign or whatever, and he's saying it's just free speech. It's just debated in Oxford.

[David Rothkopf]

Let's. Let's try to put this into some perspective, okay? The reality is that every major study that's been done, whether it's been done by the Anti Defamation League, which is kind of vaguely pro Trump these days, or it's been done by the FBI in the past, or it's been done by other, you know, legal specialists show that most of the violence that's done political violence in the United States comes from the far right. And this, you know, they are trying to use this. In fact, J.D. vance and Stephen Miller once again tried to perpetuate this. This notion that the left do the same. The left don't do the same. Most of the people who have gotten fired or called out have not been people fun of the death of Charlie Kirk. They've been people saying, you know, quoting Charlie Kirk. There's a woman, Karen Adia, who is the writer for the Washington Post, who got fired over the weekend not for saying anything about Charlie Kirk per se, but simply quoting Charlie Kirk saying that black women were not smart enough to be taken seriously in jobs. Okay? And because she quoted him, she was fired. When Matthew Dowd was on MSNBC and said this was a divisive figure, he got fired for saying that. And so these are not people going, oh, ha ha, this guy is dead. Although there's some idiots on the Internet saying that, just as they're idiots on the Internet saying everything. And it's not like the left is behind this sort of wave of violence. And so the question you have to ask is, what are they doing? Why are they spreading this particular narrative? And the answer is to serve themselves politically, to shift the blame off of them, but also to justify the president taking special steps and to give, you know, Stephen Miller apparently, I was listening this morning to something, and Stephen Miller apparently has got a plan that he's working on, a sort of post Charlie Kirk murder plan to enable them to gather more power, more rights, more prerogatives, to go and target their enemies. And so hear the words, but ask yourself, what are their motives? What are they really trying to achieve?

[Hugh Docherty]

I think the other thing worth adding to that is the factual background to violence that we should just point out that before Charlie Kirk and his tragic death, the most recent tragic deaths were of Melissa and Mark Hartman, who were murdered because she was a Democratic lawmaker.

[Joanna Coles]

And their dog.

[Hugh Docherty]

And their dog, an absolutely chilling example of violence. And it's been very clear that the suspect was fueled by right wing, far right wing views, extremist views that came from the right. And one of the things that is not being Encouraged here by J.D. vance, by Stephen Miller is any honest appreciation of exactly what has been going on in this country.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and as we, I think we said last week, on Friday, David, this is also about mentally ill young men with access to firearms. You think of Thomas Matthew Crooks, who tried to assassinate Donald Trump last July and who had a list of people that were his targets, and what of them was Joe Biden? And it was just that Trump happened to visit Butler, Pennsylvania, which was near to where Thomas Matthew Crooks lived, that he was the victim there.

[David Rothkopf]

America's gun violence problem doesn't have to do with political violence.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[David Rothkopf]

It has to do with primarily young men who have access to guns and who don't have access to mental health care and who have too much access to video games and are too alienated from their society. And if it's not young men, it's older men, but men with guns, with Mental problems or with grievances are our issue. And again, it suits people to say, oh, we have a political violence problem in America and it's on both sides, when in fact that is not what motivated the shooting attempt at Trump. That's not what motivated, you know, it wasn't, you know, what motivated this, this last one, as far as we can tell. And a lot of the cases that we have seen have been more, you know, sort of deranged people, but a lot of them have also been right wing. You know, the guy who took automatic weapon and shot up the CDC was motivated over, you know, anti vax stuff. There have been some anti Semitic attacks. And although the right tries to say, well, that's, you know, the left is, is the anti Semites, no, you know, there's a core racist component to the far right that is well known. You know, Trump is the one who praised Nazis marching in Charlottesville. And so, you know, it's hard to sort this out because there's so many people peddling so many narratives. And I think people are listening to this, really need to slow down, try to find the facts, not listen to Cash Patel and try to understand the motives of the people who are speaking.

[Hugh Docherty]

We will be back as soon as we've heard from our sponsors.

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[Joanna Coles]

And we're back talking to David Rothkop, who's in D.C. and Hugh Doherty, the executive editor of the Daily Beast, who is with me in New York. Well, Trump has. Well, Trump is setting off for London this week, right, for a state visit where there will be a big white tie dinner for him and King Charles. And Melania, our first lady, who seems to have emerged from a hiding recently. We saw her at the 911 memorial, will be meeting Kate Middleton.

[Hugh Docherty]

It's going to be amazing as a spectacle. Donald Trump, of course, met the late Queen Elizabeth and everybody remembers that he actually managed to walk in front of her, which is something you do not do do when the Queen is inspecting her own troops. You don't walk in front. He and King Charles are not soul mates. There's some, some demographic overlap. They're both boomers after that. I don't think they've got a huge amount in common. But he is going to be absolutely in love with the spectacle. He loves the spectacle. And if anybody's got more gold than than he does, it is, of course, the British royal family, who've got a selection of gilded palaces to welcome him.

[Joanna Coles]

At and a gold coach for him to ride.

[Hugh Docherty]

Gold coach for.

[Joanna Coles]

Newly refurbished.

[Hugh Docherty]

Yes. And we will see Melania going, you know, going out with Kate and out with scouts, not with Prince Andrew. And we will not see Prince Andrew in any shape or form. So he and Donald Trump, who of course were photographed together and mar a lago in the year 2000 with Jeffrey Epstein don't get to reminisce about their friend.

[Joanna Coles]

And I wonder if King Charles will raise the specter of the concreting over of Jackie Kennedy's rose garden. Well, because we know he has a huge garden at high ground, his home, his personal home. And he's a massive supporter of obviously, wildlife. Clay was banging on about climate change before anybody cared. The environment, I should say.

[Hugh Docherty]

The King is such a dedicated gardener that he speaks to his plants and.

[Joanna Coles]

His trees more than he does to his gardeners. Was a recent story that 11 out of 12 of his gardeners had felt that he wasn't treating them as well as perhaps he could have done.

[Hugh Docherty]

He is apparently a bad boss, so maybe he and Donald Trump can bond over some aspects of that.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. No word from the flowers on what they think about what he talks about with them. David, I'm sorry if this is all getting very English for you, but we grew up understanding that King Charles as he is now, certainly Prince Charles then used to talk to plants.

[David Rothkopf]

There was a document, you know, I, my mother thought that she was English and so we were. When I was little, I, you know, I mean, she was. She grew up in Manhattan, but she aspired to being English. And so the first, you know, when I was first trip overseas, we were brought to. To Hampton Court and Windsor and so forth, and trained to believe that that was the height of civilization. I've since learned better, but I don't want to get into that here to feel freer of expanding eyes.

[Hugh Docherty]

Scottish civilization, which is the height of.

[Joanna Coles]

Civilization, will outnumber you if you do that. Madonna. Your mother and Madonna. I remember meeting Madonna. I actually went to Madonna's house on the Upper east side to interview her for something, and she actually greeted me in an English accent, and then she asked me in an English accent if I would like some tea. It was very surreal.

[Hugh Docherty]

Is Donald Trump going to do this?

[Joanna Coles]

Exactly.

[Hugh Docherty]

What's going to happen?

[Joanna Coles]

Do you think he'll walk in front of Prince Charles or King Charles?

[Hugh Docherty]

King Charles, almost certainly. He is going to find some way to insert himself into this, that is possibly bad manners. And obviously people are too polite to mention. The queen did not say, Donald, out of my way. She just let him get on with it.

[Joanna Coles]

But don't you remember the last time President Biden went for a visit with King Charles, who was actually then Prince Charles? I'm sorry to get so confused. The queen was still around at that point. He was mocked for what felt like leaning on Prince Charles because it wasn't clear he was gonna actually make it up some steps. And so was he leaning on him. Either way, you're not supposed to touch, touch the royal other than give. Let them give your hand a squeeze.

[Hugh Docherty]

And we are in debt to Joanna Cole's OBE for that advice.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I was actually going to say, given the bruises that Donald Trump has had on his hands, which Carolyn Levitt, his press secretary, says are because he's been shaking so many hands, he should actually get advice on how the royals do it. Because, David, just in case you put your hand out, if you're a humble supplicant or in the crowd and they take it and they give it a gentle squeeze, but you don't shake it vigorously, leaving the president or the monarch with large, unsightly bruises, which then need to be covered up with makeup.

[Hugh Docherty]

Is there a royal cure for cankles?

[Joanna Coles]

I do think King Charles has cankles. It'll be very interesting to measure their. Their ankles cankles and see if there's any difference.

[David Rothkopf]

Wow. Will it be interesting? Are these people really interesting?

[Joanna Coles]

Fair point, David.

[David Rothkopf]

I'm sort of more of a product of the Monty Python upper class twit view of this whole thing and we.

[Hugh Docherty]

Have these sympathy in here for that.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah.

[David Rothkopf]

And you've got a lot, you've got these ridiculous people. And I think one of the things that we shouldn't lose sight of here with Donald Trump going off, off to be ridiculous with these ridiculous people is the ridiculousness of it all. Because, you know, Donald Trump, what he's trying to do right now is collect all the possible perks of presidenting that he can't. You know, I'm going to go and be greeted by these people and I'm going to be in a live in a gilded room and people are going to treat me this way and I'm going to build a ballroom with 900 people and it's there. And the whole idea of the ballroom is so the 900 people celebrate him. And what could be, you know, where do you learn how to treat ridiculous people ridiculously? But in England worshiping royal family, which is a vestige of this kind of idiocy that should long ago have disappeared, but of course it hasn't because, you know, it's entertaining it.

[Hugh Docherty]

But I'd also say there is a fairly serious lesson and David, you're absolutely right about the, the, the supermarket sweep of presidential tchotchkis that he's been amassing, but he's also trying to amass power and gilding. The Oval Office is funny and revealing, but what we are definitely seeing is that there is an opportunity presented by the death of Charlie Kirk that Stephen Miller has outlined, that he's drawing up a plan. It's all the piece.

[Joanna Coles]

And yet there is still the specter of Jeffrey Epstein lingering. And one thinks of now the incredibly complex logistics of this visit to the UK, which have been wildly disrupted by the resignation of Peter Mandelson, the British Ambassador to Washington, who was in charge of this trip and in fact was frantically trying to make sure that all went well and who's now out of his job because of the birthday book in which his four page letter with photos to Jeffrey Epstein was laid bare for everybody to see. And he said, Jeffrey, how so I'm expecting a bump in logistics.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, I think. No, no, but I think you put your finger on what is the real story here, which is the Epstein subtext with Prince Andrew and with Mandelson and with Trump and with the whole royal, you know, all the turmoil in the royal family around Prince Andrew, cruise experience there. So, you know, hopefully that, you know, that'll, that'll attract some of the, the attention here. Trump's just going to want a break. You know, he just, he just wants a break from all the miserable stories that he's had to deal with. And, you know, of course, who knows, maybe the actual British government will show up there. But I do want to say one thing before, you know, we.

[Joanna Coles]

Before you collect your car. Car before you.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, yeah, that probably won't happen anytime soon, but I do our livestream, the price, the price of admission, to hear Hugh say tchotchke with a Scottish accent. Worth it.

[Joanna Coles]

It's always worth it, David. I get that thrill every day. Please go and collect your car. Thank you very much for giving us perspective and wisdom as always. I always like to remind people you served in the Clinton administration, you were the editor of Foreign magazine. And you bring such wisdom to everything you talk about. And there were lots of wonderful comments about your perspective last week on YouTube, which I'm sure you haven't read because you are a modest man. But if you go and read them, I think you will feel cheered.

[David Rothkopf]

You're very kind. I'm not sure what this YouTube you speak of it.

[Joanna Coles]

All right, David, go and get your car. Drive safely and we will see you soon.

[David Rothkopf]

See you soon.

[Joanna Coles]

So I'm mindful of the fact that King Charles still has cancer and that it's treatable, but it's not curable. And of course, he'll be meeting Donald Trump, who's 79 with his cankles and his chronic venous interruption, which means his own blood pressure is more challenged now as he, as he reaches 80. Two old white guys hanging out together, both with a lot of power.

[Hugh Docherty]

Two old white guys, indeed. Both with. Well, certainly the president has a lot of power. The king technically doesn't have a lot of power, thanks to hundreds of years of history. But there will be a completely different perspective on this because we will also see two much younger and incredibly famous women hanging out together. The royal visit, the, the state visit will include Princess Kate and the first Lady, Melania Trump going to an engagement, as they are called in British Royal powerlongs with some young scouts. And that's going to be a split screen moment of the old and the young. Gare and I think show people it's kind of an interesting moment. Is it time for some generational change?

[Joanna Coles]

Do we think that why do we think Camilla's not meeting the first ladies?

[Hugh Docherty]

We don't exactly know. Of course, you will meet the first lady at the White Tide Dinner and will formally be there with the king when they welcome them to Buckingham park. To Windsor Castle. But that engagement of Melania and Princess Kate will, as you say, not feature the Queen. We don't really know know much about the Queen's thoughts on Donald Trump or Melania Trump. She isn't a particularly discreet person, but this one, she has not clearly has decided not to address that in any shape or form.

[Joanna Coles]

And this is the second state visit for Donald Trump, which is very unusual. Right. Normally, the royal family only hosts one head of state throughout their, their sort of stateship as well.

[Hugh Docherty]

And people thought the, the great thing the British royal family are amazing at is that they will change any rules if it helps them. If you need to divorce your wife, you set up your own church. Henry viii, Henry viii. If you need to get rid of a problematic king, then you invent the idea of abdication and send him off to France with his. His American wife, Edward vii, Edward ii, seventh. And if you're worried that there might not that, if you're worried about the perception that the male firstborn must be king, then you can change the rules. So if the, if Prince William and Princess Kate had had a girl, she would actually have been Queen. As it happened, they had a boy. So another rule seems to been torn up here. It used to be you thought this one head of state from another country, in this case, President Trump also only gets this big official state visit welcome once from the monarch, but rather handily. There have been two monarchs for Donald Trump's presidencies.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh. So, of course, the Dean oversaw the first visit, the King. And I was thinking, I was remembering the moment when Keir Starmer produced with a great flourish, when he was sitting to Donald Trump's right, I think, in the White House, in the Oval Office, a letter from the King. And Donald Trump read it out loud because he was clearly so proud to receive a letter from the King.

[Hugh Docherty]

Totally starstruck by the royals. He says it's all because of his mother, that she loved the royals. She, of course, was Scottish and obviously followed the royal family from three and a half thousand miles away. But yes, he is absolutely starstruck by the royals. They've got way more gold than he does, they've got way more property than he does, and they don't have it anymore. But they used to have way more power than he does.

[Joanna Coles]

And I will say they throw a better parade.

[Hugh Docherty]

They throw an excellent parade. And he will be taking notes, I think, back when he sees it in action.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, something we'll look forward to. He was starstruck by the royal family and was Starstruck by the Osmonds.

[Hugh Docherty]

They are royalty, too, in their own way.

[Joanna Coles]

Royalty.

[Hugh Docherty]

And they're a big fat. They're a big family. So there's an Osmond for everyone.

[Joanna Coles]

There is an Osmond for everyone. If you have been, thank you for joining us. Feel free to leave us a comment on YouTube and much more excitingly, join the Daily beast community on YouTube where you get all sorts of extra content. And Michael will be Michael Wolf, that is. And I'm sure we'll try and persuade David Rothkopf, too, to answer some of your comments. He what else do I need to say?

[Hugh Docherty]

If you join the membership scheme, then I will translate for people who didn't understand me.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, fair. Although now we can get those Apple headphones that give simultaneous translation, which, you know, my observers of the Daily Beast podcast may want to employ.

[Hugh Docherty]

That's a. That's a big threat to my unique chat, to my unique appeal, I think I thought being not understood was why people were subscribing.

[Joanna Coles]

So. Subscribe to the Daily Beast, Daily Beast.com subscribe to the podcast, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcast. We'll be back tomorrow with another episode of Inside Trump's Head with Michael Wolf. He is still in London. I wonder if he's trying to jostle himself a ticket to the state dinner.

[Hugh Docherty]

Is he there for a state visit himself?

[Joanna Coles]

Maybe he is. Maybe he is. And of course, as our first lady who's in emerged from hiding, would say, be beast. And thank you to our production team.

[Hugh Docherty]

Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Usen, and our editor, Jesse Millward.

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Acast.com want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily Beast [e-mail] podcasts if you enjoyed this.

[Joanna Coles]

Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the Beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast.com membership podcast and sign up today.