How Trump’s Insurrection Act Threat is Backfiring

Summary

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The Daily Beast Podcast: "How Trump’s Insurrection Act Threat is Backfiring"

Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Michael Wolff
Date: January 18, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode, hosted by Joanna Coles with guest Michael Wolff, delves into President Trump's threat to invoke the Insurrection Act following the shooting of Renee Nicole Goode by an ICE agent in Minneapolis. The conversation frames this moment as a critical test of American democracy, explores the administration’s strategy of escalation, examines the repercussions for institutions and political actors, and questions the absence of moral leadership from former presidents. The discussion is equal parts analysis, alarm, and irony, with a focus on the political, social, and economic fallout from Trump’s increasingly autocratic tactics.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Response to the Minneapolis Shooting

• Absolute Immunity & Escalation:
  Wolff and Coles discuss the Trump administration's doubling down after ICE agent Jonathan Ross shot Renee Nicole Goode, emphasizing the refusal to acknowledge wrongdoing and the unprecedented granting of "absolute immunity" to ICE agents.

  • "The video is so strong that I think it sort of jumps over their doubling down. I mean, people are genuinely horrified by this..." (Host, 05:46)
  • "This terrible thing has happened. A woman lost her life in at best, highly ambiguous circumstances. But there is no acknowledgment ... that they ought to have done anything differently." (Wolff, 03:01)

• Conflict as Strategy:
  Wolff explains that the Trump camp sees conflict as beneficial, even if the country is outraged:

  • "Conflict itself amped up, becomes their weapon. And this is where we are now." (Wolff, 06:36)

2. Threatened Use of the Insurrection Act

• Rhetoric vs. Reality:
  Wolff doubts that Trump’s threats reflect actual policy intentions, seeing them primarily as tools for dominating the news cycle and distracting from other scandals (e.g., Epstein):
  • "From his point of view, it's just about conflict and the drama and what that gets him." (Wolff, 11:44)
  • "Let's have the headlines about the Insurrection act rather than about this poor woman." (Wolff, 02:17; repeated, 13:11)
• Occupation of a US City:
  The hosts express alarm at the prospect of a US city, Minneapolis, becoming "occupied" by federal forces:
  • "We're essentially going to take over Minneapolis... It is going to become an occupied city." (Wolff, 10:28)
  • "Moving the army into an American city..." (Coles, 16:17)

3. Fallout for Minneapolis and Corporations

• Corporate Backchanneling/Limited Leverage:
  The hosts discuss the pressure on Minneapolis-based corporations and speculate on CEOs' possible efforts to urge de-escalation, but Wolff expresses skepticism about their influence:
  • "Back channel conversations. I don't think it matters... They want to own this." (Wolff, 09:24)
• Image of Minneapolis:
  Coles notes the city’s reputation as wholesome and home to major corporations, highlighting the disruption caused by federal intervention:
  • "Per capita it has a very high percentage of headquarters of big American companies. This isn't good for them either." (Host, 08:17)

4. Democratic (Non-)Response and Moral Leadership Vacuum

• Democratic Disarray:
  The Democratic response is characterized as disorganized and weak, with key figures absent from the fight:
  • "The Democratic response for so long has been incredibly weak, not focused..." (Wolff, 15:27)
• Where is Barack Obama?:
  Both hosts repeatedly wonder aloud why Obama, or Michelle Obama, has not stepped in to help organize a coherent opposition:
  • "Where the fuck is Barack Obama?" (Wolff, 16:21)
  • "I'm sure he's thinking that past presidents are supposed to stay out of the way..." (Coles, 18:06)
• Potential Impact of Obama & Bush:
  Wolff argues that only Obama and Bush have the moral authority to galvanize significant resistance, but both are absent:
  • "Were Barack Obama to step forward and take a leadership position... that would move Democrats, and it would also move independents." (Wolff, 24:05)
  • "These are the two meaningful pillars... who could immediately make a meaningful difference..." (Wolff, 26:01)
• Speculation on Obama & Bush’s Thinking:
  The hosts speculate whether the two ex-presidents are afraid, disengaged, or saving their “firepower” for the midterms:
  • "Either they're doing something in secret... or they're doing quite the obvious." (Wolff, 27:33)

5. International Affairs & Distractions

• Venezuela:
  Trump’s intervention in Venezuela is dismissed as primarily performative, with no substantive policy change:
  • "Donald Trump, I'm taking over the country. Well, he is not taking over the country. The country continues to run as it has been running in an authoritarian fashion..." (Wolff, 32:08)
• Iran and Global Posture:
  Trump’s promises to intervene are seen as more hot air and vacuous threats:
  • "Whatever comes out of Trump's mouth is separate from what will happen." (Wolff, 37:32)
• Economic Repercussions:
  As international players adapt, American instability is predicted to have negative economic effects:
  • "As the Trump administration gets odder and more peculiar, other people are just getting on with business as normal, which is going to have a bad impact on the American economy." (Host, 39:12)

6. The Power and Limitations of Protest

• Protests Spreading—But to What Effect?:
  Coles notes protesting in unlikely places, but Wolff insists only mass, disruptive action could work:
  • "Historically protests have worked when essentially the business of government is stopped. This protests around the country... can be ignored.... A million people in Washington, in these extreme circumstances, would certainly be helpful, would stop the government." (Wolff, 44:06)

7. The Generational Divide and New Leaders

• Emergence of New Democratic Voices:
  The hosts discuss candidates like Jasmine Crockett and Graham Platner, as possible new faces for the party—a sharp contrast to the absent Obama and aging establishment.
  • "It's very interesting to see this new group of leaders and you go from a 77 year old to a 41 year old with apparently nothing in between." (Host, 41:37)
  • "Barack Obama is in between. But as you have said, he is nowhere to be seen." (Wolff/Host exchange, 41:49-41:51)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s media manipulation:
  • "He doesn't really care what it makes him look like. Are all of the headlines about him? If they are about him, they are about nobody else." — Michael Wolff (01:58 / 13:11)
• On absolute immunity:
  • "What does absolute immunity mean? ... an internal police force that is answerable to only one person, the President of the United States. And beyond that, there is no recourse here for anybody." — Michael Wolff (04:31)
• On Obama’s absence:
  • "Where the fuck is Barack Obama?" — Michael Wolff (16:21)
• On meaningful opposition:
  • "The two big guns, the two meaningful pillars of… resistance… are, to say the very least, MIA." — Michael Wolff (26:01)
• On protest:
  • "Historically protests have worked when essentially the business of government is stopped… In these extreme circumstances, I think an extreme number of people would certainly be helpful." — Michael Wolff (44:06)
• On the threat of normalizing the extreme:
  • "Moving the army into an American city is..." — Joanna Coles (16:17)
  • "Yeah, well, I guess shooting people defines that." — Michael Wolff (16:21)

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Key Timestamps

• Shooting/ICE crisis in Minneapolis: 01:58 – 10:00
• Trump’s media strategy & Insurrection Act: 10:00 – 14:30
• Lack of Democratic and presidential leadership: 14:30 – 24:40
• Calls for Obama/Bush to step up: 24:40 – 29:00
• Venezuela & global affairs discussion: 29:46 – 37:32
• Economic fallout, new trade deals: 39:12 – 40:03
• Emergence of new Democratic leaders: 41:37 – 42:53
• Protests & the power of mass mobilization: 42:53 – 44:55

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Summary

The episode provides a sweeping, critical, and at times biting account of Trump’s escalation tactics, focusing on the use of the Insurrection Act as a way to distract from scandal and galvanize his base. Wolff and Coles paint a picture of a political system in crisis—not only because of Trump’s actions but because of the paralysis and absence of the very people who should be providing a moral counterweight, such as Barack Obama and George W. Bush. The episode closes with both alarm and a call to action: if not now, when? If not them, who?

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For listeners seeking insight and context on the ramifications of Trump’s Minneapolis crackdown and the vacuum of genuine political opposition, this episode is an urgent, unvarnished dispatch from the front lines of American democracy.

Transcript

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[Michael Wolff]

He doesn't really care what it makes him look like. Are all of the headlines about him? If they are about him, they are about nobody else. Now this is a curious moment, which is why he has to ramp this up because the headlines are also about this poor woman.

[Podcast Host]

Renee Nicole Goode how does he get.

[Michael Wolff]

Away from that Trump? Again, just the opposite. Let's not walk this back at all. Let's double down. Let's have the headlines about the Insurrection act rather than about this poor woman.

[Podcast Host]

Michael Joanna Hard to be flippant on a morning like this. We always try to be cheerful, but it does seem that the situation in Minneapolis is getting worse. That there's a Lot of provocation going on and it's unnerving.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, once again, Minneapolis is ground zero. And I think that that may not be coincident. You know, I think that the Trump people, the MAGA people, for them, Black Lives Matter has always been a particular. I, I almost insult to them. And, and, and not only that, but I think a point of, a point of conflict that they've found that they've, that has been very useful to them though, these kinds of conflicts with, with any, with, with what they consider the left in whatever iteration, black left, white left, it doesn't make any difference. I think is a thing that goes to the heart of MAGA and the heart of what they believe gives them their identity. And so I think that they're finding this at, at this, this point. This is a fight that they want to have, which is awfully scary. And, and, and, you know, I think, well, let's go back to ground zero. This is, this is, this is fundamental. And then this idea of extending this and there's no back down on their part, which is the other extraordinary thing. I mean, this terrible thing has happened. A woman lost her life in at best, highly ambiguous circumstances. But there is no acknowledgment on the part of anyone in the administration that there are any questions here, that they ought to have done anything differently, that there is reason to back off in any way, to take at least a couple of steps backward. Quite the opposite. And now this whole idea of, I don't even know what it is, it's essentially an on the fly policy decision that ICE agents have absolute immunity. And let's begin to ask, what does absolute immunity mean? I mean, it means that here is an internal police force that is answerable to only one person, the President of the United States. And beyond that, there is no recourse here for anybody.

[Podcast Host]

Well, it's also hard to, I understand that Donald Trump is doing what he always does and his goons around him always do, which is to double down on something like this. But the video is so strong that I think it sort of jumps over their doubling down. I mean, people are genuinely horrified by this, as they should be, because you see Jonathan Ross, the ICE agent, firing into the face of a mother driving her Honda pilot out of the way three or possibly four times. You hear it three times. The report coming out today saying it was actually four times he shot again. Why is everybody armed in America? Something very difficult.

[Michael Wolff]

Europeans, absolutely. All of this could not be, could not be truer. And the numbers that we are Seeing, say that a good part of the country absolutely sees it this way. They see the same video. They see what, what has happened here. They see that the response in any language, from whatever point of view, ideological point of view, you come to this, this is an egregious overreaction. Yes, everybody sees this. But there is an really, it's of maximum importance to understand that the Trump, Trump, Trump and the Trump people take conflict. Conflict is their friend. Even if it appears that, that most of the country understands they are in the wrong. Conflict itself amped up, becomes their weapon. And this is where we are now. Again, nobody backing down in the White House or in the Trump administration and instead doing the exact opposite, absolute immunity. This is not only, not only do they lie about what happened, our lying eyes, right, but then they take a step further and say anything that an ICE agent does is that no recourse, recourse against that. None whatsoever.

[Podcast Host]

We had an interesting report in the Daily Beast this week actually that suggested that, well, that said that actually ICE agents themselves are now frightened by this, that people have really turned against them, that ICE agents at one point took their jobs very seriously. They were proud to wear the uniform and now they feel like they are targets. And it's also interesting, I mean, your point about Minneapolis is a great one. I mean, Minneapolis feels like one of those very wholesome American cities. And interestingly, per capita it has a very high percentage of headquarters of big American companies. I mean, Target. I remember visiting the Target offices there. United Health, Sleep Number, Big Best Buy, General Mills, big American companies. This isn't good for them either. I'm curious to know whether or not their CEOs are having back channel conversations with the administration saying, what are you doing? Because this is very disruptive for big companies employees.

[Michael Wolff]

Back channel conversations. I don't think it matters. I mean, and that's, that's what we're seeing in an ordinary course of events. If something like this were to happen in any other government, there would be all of that and there would be on the part of the government a kind of trying, trying to walk this back, to mollify this, to, to, to apologize or to say, well, I mean, all kinds, all kinds of ways not to. And this is the important thing, own it. And they are doing the exact opposite thing. They want to own this.

[Podcast Host]

Right?

[Michael Wolff]

There is this, you are wrong. We have the power to enforce our belief that we are right. You do not have the power to challenge us in any way.

[Podcast Host]

And do you think that's because the President wants to use the Insurrection act and force an even bigger conflict.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I do, I do. I mean, that is thei mean, then this whole idea of the Insurrection act, this is preposterous. There is no insurrection direction going on here. There is, there is, you know, some, you know, you know, relative, relatively minor resistance, not major resistance, people blowing whistles as people, relatively minor resistance to, to what's, what's. What's happening. So, no, no, let's amp this up. We're going to do the Insurrection Act. We are going to send inwe're essentially going to take over Minneapolis. We've already sort of taken it over, but now we're really going to take it over. It is going to become an occupied city in the United States. So. And then that would give us all power there is speaking of, of absolute immunity. This would be absolute, absolute immunity.

[Podcast Host]

Do you think that Trump is doing this because the Supreme Court said he couldn't send the National Guard into Chicago and LA and Portland? Is this their response?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, I don't think. I think the response is just, I mean, I mean, again, I always try to remove this from. Everybody wants to see this through the, through. Through the, through a prism of political and policy and strategic logic. Trump wants to see this through the prism of conflict and drama and distraction and distraction and statement. So I think, I mean, the Insurrection act, this is now a, you know, it isit is. We're still at the point of rhetorical threat, and that commands the headlines for a couple of days. Will they actually do that? I mean, I mean, you have to think through. And someone inside the White House is actually probably thinking through what the Insurrection act actually means and the troops on the ground and the cost and the possible fallout from him. I hope someone is thinking about this. Trump, from his point of view, is just thinking about the conflict and the drama and what that gets him.

[Podcast Host]

Well, it gets him a lot of attention. Right. And I think he thinks it makes him look like a strong man as opposed to. It makes him look like he's doing this to create distraction from Epstein. Epstein. Epstein.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. Well, it also is, as I've said, you know, many times, and again, we're reading into this. This. What does this make him look like? He doesn't really care what it makes him look like. Is it. Is, is he the dominant thing? If are all of the headlines about him? If they are about him, they are about nobody else. Now, this is a moment. This is actually a curious moment, which is why he has to ramp this up, because the the headlines are also about this poor woman, as they, Renee, Nicole, good as they should be. And, and, you know, I think that, I think that. So the question is, how does he get away from that? And again, in most administrations, you would try, you would want to get away from this and you would walk this back and you would hold an investigation and, and you would try to identify wrongdoing, although you would probably not identify yourself as the wrongdoer, but you would identify someone as the wrongdoer. Trump, again, just the opposite. Let's not walk this back at all. Let's double down. Let's increase the drama. Let's have the headlines about the Insurrection act rather than about this, this poor woman.

[Podcast Host]

So what do you think of the Democrats response? We've got the mayor. We've also got Tim Walsh, who obviously was Kamala Harris's vice president candidate, vice presidential candidate, who's announced that he's actually leaving the governorship at the end of his term. So he's not standing again. Do you think that also plays into why Minneapolis? I mean, you've also got Amy Klobuchar, who ironically, was the senator that sort of, you know, I can't remember the official role, but was the senator whose role it was to sort of run the inauguration. So she made the inauguration speech about moving on and unity, and none of which has come to pass.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, I mean, the Democratic response for so long has been incredibly weak, not focused. I mean, this has been a year of complete disarray for the, for the Democrats kind of shame, I suppose, for the Democrats that they actually let Donald Trump become the president again. But, you know, I mean, one of the things that I have been wondering about lately, let's, let's just assume that we are at a. Minneapolis's ground zero. We are really at a critical moment. Of all the critical moments we have had in the past year, I think we're really at the. This is, this is. I mean, I'm not sure how you would define this inflection point as different from the other inflection points, but it begins to feel.

[Podcast Host]

Moving the army into an American city is.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, I guess shooting people defines that. And so, and so the, the question, the question I've been asking myself, and it seems to be like a very logical question if you think about the Democratic response. And who in the Democratic Party has the standing and the moral authority to respond to this? It's, where the fuck is Barack Obama?

[Podcast Host]

I think it's on the golf course. He's on the golf course.

[Michael Wolff]

You know. You know. Yeah. Playing golf. What, what does it take? I mean, isn't now the time? I'm, I'm kind of, kind of perplexed by that. So his, his response. And I, you know, I've been putting together an essay about, about, about this, which I think I'll, I'll finish and post in post tomorrow. Today is Friday. When. So on tomorrow, Saturday. But I am. How do. If you're Barack Obama, how do you justify this? Do you say things are. Well, things are bad, but they're not as bad as they could be. So, you know, yes, I have a responsibility. We all have a responsibility, but now is not the time to. Now is not the time for me to spend my, to go into the bank and spend my political currency reserve. Yes. What can be thinking? What can he be thinking?

[Podcast Host]

Well, I'm sure he's thinking that past presidents are speaking, supposed to stay out of the way. He may be thinking, why get involved when it looks like Donald Trump is imploding with the.

[Michael Wolff]

But it doesn't look like Donald Trump is imploding. That's a, that's, that's crazy. And, and, and we know that when Donald Trump implodes, he does, he goes deeper. He doesn't implode. He.

[Podcast Host]

Well, is it safe to say that perhaps Obama, the Obamas, because Michelle could be very helpful here, too, are saving their firepower for the midterms.

[Michael Wolff]

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[Podcast Host]

I'm Michael Wolf and I are back inside Trump's head.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I, yeah, I guess they can justify this. We're saving our firepower. But eventually and soon enough, you save it until it's too late. When is too late? Are they. Do they have some. Is that a measurement? Does Barack Obama wake up in the morning and think, well, yeah, I'm going to have to sometime. But not, not.

[Podcast Host]

But what would you have him do? Would you have him fly to Minneapolis and make a speech there? Make one of his speeches? Great rhetorical flourishes.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you know, he occasionally does. I don't want a rhetorical flourish. I mean, he occasionally does come out and makes these oracular pronouncements. What's the plan, man? You know, he is the person. There is only one person in the Democratic Party who can begin to assemble a consensus and a, and a way to move forward here. One person, nobody, nobody else. And that is Barack Obama and he ain't doing it.

[Podcast Host]

Well, we know he's playing a lot of golf. We know he's got a contract with Netflix and I think they still have one with Spotify. So he's supposed to be making content.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, yeah. Playing golf and hanging out in Hollywood. Come I mean.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I don't disagree with you.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm wondering also, let's not just put this on Barack Obama.

[Podcast Host]

I was just going to say, I hope you're coming to George W. Bush.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. There is another president here who has much at issue or more since, you know, Donald Trump has ruined or stolen the Republican, the entire Republican Party that his family has called home for so many generations. And clearly, you know, it is not as if George Bush is saying, well, you know, in the Republican family, you know, you have to allow for this. And Donald Trump, he thinks. Donald Trump is. He thinks of Donald Trump with as much contempt as we do and as Barack Obama does. So these two guys, the two guys with particular. A particular authority at this point, authority that they haven't used. You know, I mean, I mean, Clinton and Biden have their. Have their own issues and.

[Podcast Host]

Well, they both seem much older, too. I mean, the thing about Barack Obama is his at this point is still useful.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, but it is this. I mean, certainly George W. Bush would move were he to be emphatic in his position, in his contempt for Donald Trump. That would move Republicans. Were Barack Obama to step forward and take a leadership position against Donald Trump, that would move Democrats, and it would also move independents.

[Podcast Host]

Right, it would also move independents, some of whom voted for Donald Trump and some of whom also voted for Barack Obama. I was talking to a friend the other day who'd attended an interview at a JP Morgan event where Bill Clinton and George Bush, George W. Bush were both being interviewed together. And, you know, it was off the record. And so they were highly critical of Donald Trump and the. And sort of, well, I bet you wish you had us guys back now. You gave us a hard time, but it's much harder now. And you do think, why aren't they coming out and saying something? And I take your point about Bill Clinton. Well, he's older and he's frailer now, but again, he could have gone in front of the Oversight Committee and said, I'm not the guy you want to talk to about Jeffrey Epstein. You should be talking to Donald Trump. Why aren't you talking to Donald Trump? That was the friendship. That was the friendship for 15 years. Very close friends. Why aren't you talking to the president?

[Michael Wolff]

It's, I mean, whatever. I mean, the Clinton thing. Clinton is damaged. Is damaged goods. Let's face it. You know, he's got Epstein all all over him. That's not the issue. I mean, we can. Yeah, sure, they should do whatever that they. Whatever they can do, but the two voices, the two big guns, the two meaningful pillars of, of, of. What do we want to call it? Resistance?

[Podcast Host]

Well, stability, I think.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I'm trying to, I was going to say normalcy, but, you know, let's avoid these, these dull words. This is, this is the, the two, the two guys who could immediately make a meaningful difference, make a set up, a, a, a meaningful and immediate and meaningful counterpoint to the Trump White House are, to say the very least. Mia.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's interesting. Oh, I interviewed Jasmine Crockett, which will go out on the Daily Beast podcast tomorrow or on Sunday, I should say. We're recording this on Friday. We'll go out on Saturday. Tomorrow we have a Sunday. We have a great interview, actually, with Jasmine Crockett, potential leader of, or one of the new leaders in the Democratic Party. She has not met or heard from the Obamas as she gets ready to run for Senate in Texas. She's had advice from Kamala Harris. She's had advice from Joe Biden. She hasn't heard from the Obamas.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I just, it's, it's. I mean, maybe they got a plan.

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[Michael Wolff]

We don't know. Maybe something's going on. Going on.

[Podcast Host]

But it does seem a long time to wait between now and November for the midterms. And it does feel. I agree. What are they doing?

[Michael Wolff]

Either they're doing something in secret that they're not going to tell us, or they're doing quite the obvious.

[Podcast Host]

They're doing. So you would say.

[Michael Wolff]

And you know, the other thing interesting is that apparently Obama and Bush have become quite friendly, if not outright friends. And it would be unlikely, implausible that they don't talk about Donald Trump. And they don't. And they haven't at some, some level discussed what their responsibility is.

[Podcast Host]

Maybe jointly, maybe they don't want to get involved anymore. Maybe they feel like they've been there, done that, tried their best, done their thing and don't want to do it anymore.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you know, I'm not sure that that's an option for them. Or, I mean, it's if, if, if. So it's a, they are spending their moral authority on that and it will go away. And you know, I mean, this is a kind of, kind of picture of, you know, of two guys, actually. You could, you could write this play that two, two man play and, and, and two guys, the great and the good, resisting what, what history, what history is claims that they do.

[Podcast Host]

Right. Some have. What is that line? Some have greatness thrust upon them. And I can't remember what it is. But yes, I mean, they may not want to do it, but they may not have any real choice.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I think also, you know, honestly, they're probably like everybody else afraid of Donald Trump.

[Podcast Host]

Well, they may not know how to take him on too. Right. I mean, you have to have a plan, as you say, what's the plan? But what would the plan.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, a plan is great something, but otherwise you just have to signify by standing up and being willing to stand up and being the guy there and saying absolutely what you believe, express your contempt and then invite Donald Trump to prosecute them. Bring it on. Make the confrontation clear.

[Podcast Host]

Bring it on. Well, there was a very strange moment in the White House, I thought this week when Maria Carina Machado turned up, gave Donald Trump her Nobel Peace Prize and he sort of grabbed it, you know, greedily with a huge grin on his face.

[Michael Wolff]

No, that seemed, that seemed like, oh my God. And, but, and then for. What is she doing there?

[Podcast Host]

What is she doing there?

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, what is she, what an ass lick? I mean, you know, he has said, what more does he have to say? I'm not interested in you. You're not going to do this.

[Podcast Host]

But you've got no respect. He literally said you have no respect. You may be.

[Michael Wolff]

The legitimate democratic president of Venezuela, but I don't care about that. I don't care about democracy, I don't care about you. I mean, he's been more dismissive than that. Well, you don't have the respect you seem to have from the beginning, but you don't have the respect. And yet she is there. She's not saying, come on, why isn't she saying this? The issue is not oil. The issue is democracy.

[Podcast Host]

Right. Well, and then, I mean, fascinatingly, the woman who is currently in charge of Venezuela, although we know that Donald Trump is in charge and Marco Rubio and Pete Hegseth have been put in charge, although Donald Trump truth socialed out that he was the acting president of Venezuela. Delsey Rodriguez has said that if she was called to the White House, she would walk, she wouldn't crawl and prostrate herself as Machado has done. So it's a very peculiar, I think that Mashata was ill advised. Well, I think we should do that.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, she is just saying, and I think it's important, you know, you know, she's just posturing.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, of course.

[Michael Wolff]

She's just being Trump to Donald Trump and to, and to the Venezuelan people. So, yeah, you know, she's.

[Podcast Host]

I was.

[Michael Wolff]

Going to say she's much as much of an ass lick as Machado is.

[Podcast Host]

But she's at least got her country.

[Michael Wolff]

Not actually, she is just, I mean, that's the other, the other confusing and horrifying and ironic point of this situation is that the people, the people who have been in power in Venezuela are still the people in power in Venezuela and nothing has changed otherwise other than they seem to have bought off Donald Trump with some oil that apparently nobody wants.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's sort of not regime change, it's sort of regime capture. And also, what's she getting out of it? She's getting the opportunity to run the country, whereas before she was the number two.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I mean nothing changes. Everybody is, you know, the people, the people in the, in the government are the same people in the government. Literally nothing changes. Donald Trump, I'm taking over the country. Well, he is not taking over the country. The country continues to run as it has been running in an authoritarian fashion. The legitimate democratic leaders have continued to be excluded from from the country and ever gratefully a commercial break.

[Podcast Host]

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[Podcast Host]

And I'm back with the Donald Trump chronicler Michael Wolff. And we are where else inside Trump's head? You know, the irony I thought was that Trump had that meeting for all the oil executives on the Friday of last week where he was encouraging everybody to bring investment to Venezuela, of which, of course, he is the acting president. And yet the very next day, the State Department told Americans who were in Venezuela to leave because Americans, you know, you know, gangs were stopping cars on the streets of, of Venezuela to look for America.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, obviously, it's an enormously unstable situation and has been for some time and continues to be without, you know, and again, what are we doing there? We're not there. We're not. So this is just once more Trump saying this is reality when that has nothing to do with reality.

[Podcast Host]

So what do we know about what's happening in Iran in terms of American intervention or not intervention. And his reassurance last week, help is on the way. If you are protesting, keep protesting. Help is on the way. And yet there has been no help.

[Michael Wolff]

Again, you know, this is the, the rhetorical Trump administration without any plan whatsoever. So the threat we're going to, you know, if you kill people, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna do terrible things to you, unspecified terrible things. And then they did, they, they've killed an enormous number of people. What are we gonna do? Well, apparently we are going to do nothing except in Trump command of reality saying that the killing has stopped. And with, with some implied credit going to Trump for stopping the killing, which clearly has not stopped then, and then these threats, the entire region has apparently coalesced into a consensus to beg the Trump administration not to do anything. So, so what were those initial threats about? Well, clearly they were not about anybody knowing anything about, about the dynamic of the situation in the region itself. I continue to be, I'm not sure where you can get to on, on this when you're dealing with something that is, that has no bearing on reality at all. Whatever comes out of Trump's mouth is separate from what will happen.

[Podcast Host]

And meanwhile, Mark Carney, the new premier of Canada, has reached an agreement with China for a new trade deal. So as the, as the Trump administration gets odder and more peculiar, other people are just getting on with business as normal, which is going to have a bad impact on the American economy.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And even maga, you know, even the MAGA crew down on Wall street are all freaking out about the charges being brought against Jerome Powell, chairman of the Fed, who's only got to hang on until May, but who is now being prosecuted for alleged corruption in the refurbishment of one of the federal buildings.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, totally. So, Barack Obama, where are you? Speak to me, Barack.

[Podcast Host]

So if there's anybody listening who knows the Obamas or who knows people around the Obamas, we would love to know what is their plan? What are they doing? Are they just hanging out now as celebrities in Hollywood and Hawaii and hanging out with the Netflix crew? What are you doing? Obamas?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure anyone talking to the Obamas is going to tell us this, but.

[Podcast Host]

But it's a very good question. It's a very good question. Do they have any obligation to get engaged? And if not then, if not now, when? And if not them, who? I will say there is a new group of much younger leaders. I mentioned I'd interviewed Jasmine Crockett. I also interviewed Graham Platner. That interview will go out on Monday. He's the 41 year old insurgent candidate in Maine not chosen by the Democratic establishment. They've backed Governor Janet Mills, who's been a good governor of Maine, but she's 77. She would be 78. She would be the oldest senator ever going into the Senate. And Graham Platner is a Marine. He's got an oyster business up there and he' syou know, he's full of energy because he sees the current system in the Democratic Party not working for him. It's very interesting to see this new group of leaders and you go from a 77 year old to a 41 year old with apparently nothing in between.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, Barack Obama is in between.

[Podcast Host]

Barack Obama is in between. But as you have said, he is nowhere to be seen. He is nowhere to be seen.

[Michael Wolff]

But let's sum this up because I think it's, I think it's vital. There is a situation going on. Minneapolis has become ground zero for, for, for the, the draconian Trump presence in American cities. And it has become ground zero for a true, what seems like a true resistance to that, to those actions and policies we're at. I think we're literally, this is a point. And Minneapolis, again, like Black Lives Matter, this becomes a moment, a potentially national, viral moment in a moment that kind of calls for people to stand up.

[Podcast Host]

And maybe it's the moment for us all to march on Washington. Like you're always saying, why aren't people doing that? I mean, various people have pointed out in our comments on YouTube that there are protests going on all over the country. Funnily enough, I was in Mount Kisco, which is a dormitory town just north of New York on Saturday and there was an ice protest. It was a group of very well dressed people all blowing whistles and signs saying ice. So there definitely are protest.

[Michael Wolff]

Dormitory town.

[Podcast Host]

I think it's where people go to sleep, but there isn't much life. I know we're now going to hear from people in Mount Kisco saying it's not true. I think a dormitory town is where people essentially work in places like New York City or White Plains and go back to their towns.

[Michael Wolff]

That must be a British expression. I've never heard this expression except the college town.

[Podcast Host]

No dormitory town is where people sleep, but essentially their work life is somewhere else.

[Michael Wolff]

I know, I get the, I get the, I get the principle. I'm just challenging the language.

[Podcast Host]

Anyway, there was a protest there of probably sort of maybe 60 to 100 people. No, I mean, we protest going on. That's what I'm saying.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I mean, I mean, I have just thinking, and we've talked about this before, I think it's worth talking about, about again that, that historically protests have worked when essentially the business of government is stopped. They can't ignore it. I mean, this protests around the country. Yeah, great, everybody. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's meaningful, but it can be ignored. And the, the Trump administration has successfully ignored them. 10 million people in Washington. A million people in Washington. But this is, in these extreme circumstances, I think an extreme number of people would certainly be helpful, would stop the government.

[Podcast Host]

I think local politicians take note. And we've, you know, we have, as we've talked about before, a record number of people leaving Congress because they just don't want to deal with this anymore. Okay, Michael, it's time to go. I want to thank everybody who sent in limericks. We mentioned in our last couple of podcasts that we have a regular limerick writer, the limerick laureate Garfried, who sends us a limerick after every episode. And you suggested that other people write in limericks. So we've had. We've had dozens of limericks. Come, come. I was going to read some of them, but today it feels a bit. It feels a bit gloomy to read. Is it too gloomy or should I read a couple?

[Michael Wolff]

I think it's too gloomy. Let's do limericks on Tuesday.

[Podcast Host]

Well, everybody can look forward to that. We've got limericks. We've also got some haikyuu, and we've also got some regular poems with iambic pentameter. Someone heard me. But we have a very literate group of listeners and viewers, so I want to commend everybody's efforts and thank you. And we'll go through them on Tuesday and Thursday next week.

[Michael Wolff]

Great.

[Podcast Host]

But for now, it's time to get out there and protest wherever you are. So, Michael, I hope you finish your essay on Barack Obama and George W. Bush. I look forward to reading it. Are you going to post it on Substack?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

Probably tomorrow.

[Podcast Host]

All right. I will look forward to reading that. And if you have been, thank you for joining us. Please leave us a comment on YouTube. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and to the Daily Beast. I say this every time, but it's true. We are independent media and we really appreciate your support and we want to thank you and we want to thank our production team. Michael, do you want to thank them? I always feel it means a bit more if it comes from you because they see me every day.

[Michael Wolff]

And then it's a challenge for me to remember their names, which I.

[Podcast Host]

Can you remember the words from the MOCA test we took?

[Michael Wolff]

School. White. I just remember school in white.

[Podcast Host]

Leg.

[Michael Wolff]

Legs.

[Podcast Host]

Leg. Cotton. School. Tomato. White. Actually, that makes me feel a bit better that I can remember those. Leg, School, Cotton, Tomato, white.

[Michael Wolff]

Wednesday evening, we will be. Joanna and I will be live at the 92nd Street Y in New York City on 92nd street and Lexington Avenue. And we'd love. We'd love to see everybody. Most of all, we'd love to see a Full house. It is www92ny.org and you can get tickets to be there or tickets or virtual tickets wherever you are, if you're not on 92nd in Lexington on Wednesday night.

[Podcast Host]

I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to it.

[Michael Wolff]

Thank you, Devin. Rachel.

[Podcast Host]

Heather.

[Michael Wolff]

Heather. One more. Ryan. Ryan. She says yes.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. See you on Tuesday, Michael.

[Michael Wolff]

See ya. Joanna. Hi. Just a second. I have to tell you about something.

[Podcast Advertiser]

That we're obsessed with.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm Kevin Fallon. And I'm Matt Wilstein and we are hosting Obsessed, the podcast about all the TV shows, movies and entertainment newsmakers that we're all obsessed with. So make sure you subscribe to us on YouTube at the YouTube channel. Make sure you follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for Obsessed the podcast and.

[Podcast Advertiser]

We will see you there.

[Podcast Host]

Big shout out to our Bee Beast level members. Yvette Johnson Methinks Betsy o' Farrell Mills and Lynns Shell B. Max Quibbett David Sherry Thomas Moore Maria Voltaine D. Kujawatts Sinja Lund John H. Overocker Deb K. Ostrander Sandra Clark Travels with Carl Andrew Beaver Capernator Harry Clark Dawn McCarthy Daniel dog lover M. Griner DiCetone Fulvia Orlando Herbie Andrew Mellor Tattnall Val Love, Francisco Will Hutchison Andrea Hodel Bocock D.C. sharon Shipley, Connie Rutherford, Karen Wright and Heidi.

[Michael Wolff]

Riley Devin Rachel, Ryan, Heather and Heather.

[Podcast Host]

Our team is growing. It's very exciting.

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[Podcast Host]

Foreign.

[Michael Wolff]

Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star studded the Daily Beast [e-mail] podcasts if you enjoyed this.

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Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast.com and membership podcast and sign up today.