Jason Zengerly (4:00)

That is very true, Kathy, for reminding me. Yeah.

Joanna Coles (4:04)

Let's start by you explaining quite why Tucker Carlson is as important as he has become to Donald Trump.

Jason Zengerly (4:14)

He's, he's an advisor to Trump. I think that's important to understand. During Trump's first presidency, he was an advisor through the television, through his Fox News show. I mean, he didn't spend a lot of time socializing with Trump off air or even talking to Trump off air. He was, he was one of the few Fox hosts at the time who didn't, you know, kind of love his access and exploit his access to the Oval Office. Tucker realized that he could drive government decision making, drive policy making, just by communicating with Trump through the television, through his show. He knew Trump was watching. He would structure his monologues, he would book his guests, all with an eye towards influencing the president. And, you know, he had a lot of success on that. He would scuttle various personnel appointments. At one point, he was very instrumental in convincing Trump to call off a military strike against Iran. He was someone who, Jared Kushner told White House staffers, you have to watch Tucker Carlson Tonight if you're going to work in this White House. He was that influential.

Joanna Coles (5:13)

It's mind blowing that. That's how People communicated with the president. And in the book, you also talk about how Trump would call Tucker Carlson, and Tucker Carlson didn't like taking the calls. He would try and get off the calls as fast as he could. Can you just tell us a little bit more about that before we go back to why he's important?

Jason Zengerly (5:34)

Well, I think he was. He was wary of Trump personally, and he didn't want to get too close to him personally. You know, where Sean Hannity, he would talk to Trump all the time. At one point, he was. He was called the shadow chief of staff because he was so, you know, just involved and kind of in. In things. In the White House off air, Tucker was. I think he. He thought that if you got too close to Trump, you'd ultimately be destroyed by that. He watched what had happened to Roger Stone, who was a friend of his at one point. You know, when Trump. When he would talk to Trump on the phone, I think he worried that the calls were being recorded either by Trump or by an intelligence service. He tried to keep his part of the conversation to a minimum. And then there were instances when Trump would call him and he would let the call go to voicemail, which was, you know, kind of the ultimate flex. You know, I mean, ironically or paradoxically, like, that actually made Trump, I think, like him more and respect him more. That sort of hard to get act that Tucker was playing. And, and in a weird way, it actually made him more influential. The fact that he wasn't sort of, you know, at the President's like, you know, beckon, Beck and call. And Trump, I think, respected him for that in a. In a way.

Joanna Coles (6:41)

Right. You've actually got a line here that said he didn't want to get too close to Trump, concluding that everyone who did like his and Trump's mutual friend Roger Stone, who'd been convicted of seven felony accounts for trying to obstruct a federal investigation into Trump's 2016 campaign, was ultimately destroyed by the association. I mean, it's just such a good observation, both of Tucker's and of yours, to pull out about him because so many people from his first administration ended up going to jail or really not being able to work in anything serious again.

Jason Zengerly (7:17)

Yeah. Although they've all been pardoned now, so we're getting stuff.

Joanna Coles (7:20)

Well, that's true. I know. Cause who foresaw that Donald Trump would come back? So he's communicating with Donald Trump through his Fox News show. And then comes the Dominion battle, where Fox says that the Dominion voting machines have been faulty, that this is part of why Trump should have actually won the election. The Fox News hosts know that's not true. Dominion takes them to court and wins the case. And in that case, will you explain some of the emails that come out, which are deeply embarrassing to Tucker? And ultimately, as part of the settlement, which we learn from Michael Wolf's book, the Fool, Tucker is the sacrificial Larry. He's part of the, the settlement.

Jason Zengerly (8:06)

Well, that's what Tucker thinks. I mean, and that's what he told Michael Wolf. I don't know if there's evidence for that beyond Tucker thinking that, but, I mean, that's. That's a separate issue. I mean, the Dominion suit in discovery, it produced a trove of text messages and emails that were being sent among Fox executives, Fox talent. Tucker was included in that, and he was, as those, you know, text messages and emails revealed, you know, very angry at Trump. Very angry at Trump for losing the election. He thought. He thought Trump lost the election. He thought it was Trump's fault. He was angry at Trump for, you know, being a sore loser for promoting these conspiracy theories. And, you know, in. In. I mean, one thing I think it actually is important to say about those texts and those emails, Tucker was actually one of the few Fox hosts who didn't really go along with those conspiracy theories on air. I mean, he didn't, he didn't advance them a lot on his own. And in one instance, he actually shot one down in a pretty prominent way. He took Sidney Powell, who was a lawyer who was promoting these conspiracy theories, and he. He debunked her on air. And unlike, you know, other Fox hosts who were promoting this stuff, Tucker wasn't. So there wasn't as great of a disconnect between what Tucker was saying privately about Trump and what he was saying on air. That said, some of the, the terms he used to describe Trump, you know, as a demonic force, things like that, I mean, he never would have said anything like that on air. So they revealed, you know, Tucker's true thoughts at the time about, about Donald Trump, about the, the legitimacy of the 2020 election, about what happened on January 6th and how it was, you know, Trump's fault. All of this came out in, in the Dominion case. And it was. It was embarrassing for Tucker and it was, you know, embarrassing for the entire network.

Joanna Coles (9:49)

Well, and there was also an email, I think, that said, and I'm not quite sure where it is in the book, and I don't want to hold up our conversation by finding it, but where he says that he will just be grateful never to have to think about Donald Trump again.

Jason Zengerly (10:03)

Yeah, he, he, I think like Everybody else after January 6th, thought that Trump was going to disappear. And, and he was, yeah, he was celebrating that. He, you know, he, he looked back on the four years of Trump's first presidency and he said, you know, in another one of these text messages that nothing had been accomplished and it was a waste. And he was glad that Trump was exiting the stage and he could, he could focus on other people and other things.

Joanna Coles (10:28)

Yes, I found the quote, we are very, very close to being able to ignore Trump most nights. I truly can't wait. So it seems doubly extraordinary that Tucker Carlson went from someone who was a Trump skeptic, who ignored the President's calls from time to time, though he did take them at other times, but he was mindful of not getting caught into the President's circle, that he should then become so important to Trump too.

Jason Zengerly (11:00)

Yeah, well, I think, I mean, I think a few things happened. I think one, and I think probably the biggest factor in this is that he was fired from Fox. And you know, whether he was fired as part of the Dominion settlement or not, like, I don't think we know that, but he lost his job there. And in, and in the process of losing his job, he lost his built in audience. I mean, at Fox, basically anyone who goes on at 8 o' clock on Fox is going to have millions of viewers. You know, Jesse Waters is like a perfect example of that.

Joanna Coles (11:26)

Right.

Jason Zengerly (11:27)

You know, Roger Drills used to talk about how he could put a dead raccoon on the air and it would, you know, get ratings. Like that's just sort of how powerful FOX is. So Tucker lost that and he needed to build an audience on his own and he needed to, you know, stay relevant and get attention. And one way he has done that is he has attached himself at the hip to Trump in a way that he never would have in the first presidency. And you know, when you say he's a Trump skeptic, I mean, he was a Trump skeptic personally. I mean, ideologically he was, he was a huge booster of Trump. And you know, I think what Tucker, what Tucker was trying to do was he was trying to promote Trumpism without Trump himself. And Tucker, in a weird way, became actually more of a ideological standard bearer for the MAGA movement than Trump because Tucker was consistent. I mean, Trump, you know, was all over the place on various issues. Tucker had a real consistent and coherent ideological line. And I think when he, when he would criticize Trump on air, it was because Trump was deviating from that line. So Tucker was by no means was he frequently critical or that skeptical of Trump on air. He just kind of sort of tried to pretend that Trump himself didn't exist. The second time around, though, he has embraced Trump, he's kind of relished his role in the inner circle. I mean, during the 2024 presidential campaign, he might as well have been part of Trump's campaign. He would speak, speak at Trump rallies. He spoke at the Republican National Convention. You know, behind the scenes, he was a really key advisor. He was, I think probably one of the two most influential voices promoting J.D. vance during the Veep Stakes. He and Don Jr were in Donald Trump's ear telling him he should pick Vance. He obviously got his way on that. And he was someone that, you know, Trump, I think, you know, going Trump, Trump just listened to him. I mean Trump wanted to hear what he had to say. I mean he didn't, he didn't win every argument. And there were times where Trump take Tucker's advice, but he was certainly someone who had a seat at the table.

Joanna Coles (13:32)

But Jason Trump is notoriously vindictive against people who he feels have been anti him. He must have seen the emails that came out during the Dominion case and of course they settled for $750 million, almost a billion dollars. And at least the way Michael Wolff writes it in his book the Fall about Fox News, the head of Tucker car was important to the Dominion people. So can you explain the rapprochement between Tucker and Trump after Tucker's dislike of Trump becomes very public?

Jason Zengerly (14:16)

Well, I mean you're never really fully out of Trump world, right? I mean there have been countless examples of people who have said horrible things about him and then managed to make amends and be invited back in. I mean, I mean first among them J.D. vance, you know, who like to Hitler and Tucker I think had to go through a similar process. It certainly helped that when Tucker was sort of, you know, trying to achieve this rapprochement with Trump, they both had this kind of, they had, they had, they had mutual interests that were aligned. And I think the, the, the, the first one was like really sticking it to Fox because Trump was angry at Fox because after January six, you know, Rupert Murdoch tried to disappear Trump. He, you know, he was, I think in one of these text messages or emails that came out in the Dominion case, he said, you know, we're going to try to non person. So Fox stopped covering him. At the same time, Fox started to boost Ron DeSantis and tried to make him into a plausible presidential candidate. And Trump was angry about that. Tucker was, you know, also angry at Fox for firing him. And I mean, the first thing that they collaborated on was the first GOP presidential debate was being broadcast on Fox. FOX really wanted Trump to participate because obviously, you know, that's a big help for ratings. They, they lobbied him, they went to Bedminster, they went to Mar a la various, you know, on air talent, off air executives. Excuse me, we're talking to Trump about this. Trump kind of strung them along saying he was considering it. All the while, Trump was talking to Tucker about doing a show with him. And then on the night of the, the GOP first presidential debate, which Trump skipped, he releases a one on one interview with Tucker on, you know, Twitter to sort of service counter programming and, and depress ratings even further for Fox. So, you know, that was, that was kind of the first thing they were able to collaborate on. I think Tucker even, you know, even before he was fired from Fox, I think he was sort of starting to tiptoe a little bit closer to Trump just because Tucker, I mean, Tucker does have an ideological project that he's working on and he does have a vision for the country that he wants to achieve. And I think he was looking around the, the landscape of Republicans who are trying to replace Trump, inherit his supporters, you know, first among them DeSantis. And he wasn't impressed and he didn't think any of these guys could get elected president. And I think it started to dawn him that, you know, Trump was not a spent force and he might be the best vehicle for, you know, what Tucker hoped to achieve. So even, even before he got fired, he was, he was you know, making sort of making a little bit nicer with Trump, you know, Don Jr. Who he is close to, he, he went up to Maine and visited Tucker. And at that point, Tucker had kind of been refusing Trump's entreaties and Don Jr. Talked to him. And, and not long after that, Tucker went down to Bedminster for a golf tournament and was photographed with Trump. And they had a good meeting and was kind of the start of them, you know, rekindling their relationship.

Joanna Coles (17:13)

Okay. So they bonded over a dislike of Fox News and a sense of betrayal by Fox News. And then, I mean, quite insightful of Tucker to realize that Donald Trump still had more life in him because he'd be pretty much written off by everybody at that stage.

Jason Zengerly (17:32)

Yeah, I mean, Tucker, you know, I think in two instances has been sort of a Little bit ahead of the curve in terms of, you know, recognizing Donald Trump's potential. I mean, the, the real, the key to him becoming successful at Fox and rising from kind of. He was like on the third tier, the back bench.

Joanna Coles (17:48)

Yeah, he was a weekend host.

Jason Zengerly (17:50)

Yeah, weekend host, you know, wasn't getting good airtime. And when Trump announced his candidacy in 2015, I mean, people, I think forget this now, but Fox was not supportive. I mean, Murdoch himself was personally dismissive. The pundits on Fox did not think that this was a serious candidacy. They were, you know, know, they were, they would criticize him on air. And Fox had this like this basic television problem in that they wanted to talk about Trump because Roger Ailes knew that Donald Trump was good ratings, but they couldn't, they couldn't sort of produce a compelling debate segment because they didn't really have anyone to take Trump's side. And Tucker, you know, among all these conservative pundits, he was one of the few who took Donald Trump seriously when he announced his campaign. I mean, even though he had personal qualms about Trump, he recognized that a candidate who ran on, you know, on nativism and white grievance, he saw that there was actually a lane for that kind of candidate in the Republican primary. And he would be willing to say that on air. And because, you know, he's, he's camera ready, he can put two sentences together, he started getting more airtime that way. So, you know, one, in, in 2016, he was, he saw sort of Trump's potential before others did. And then, yes, I think you're right about kind of Trump's comeback. Tucker was a little bit ahead of the curve in recogniz that he was not. That Trump was not a spent force.

Joanna Coles (19:07)

And also because, you know, people may forget that Tucker was at one point on msnbc, he was also at cnn. And in a weird way, he finds his home for his theatrical and performance abilities at Fox. And now, of course, since being fired from Fox, he's gone off on his own. He has Tucker media, Tucker Carlson media. I'm. What is his role now? I know he's an advisor, but is he also raking it in and just prepared to say anything at this point? I mean, one of the really interesting questions you raised in the introduction to your book, and you obviously spent time with him as a young man. You worked with him at one point. All his friends from those days are asking, does Tucker believe what he's saying now? Or is it just a way of making, making a lot of Money and getting a lot of attention. And does he also eventually have presidential ambitions himself?

Jason Zengerly (20:12)

Yeah, well, I mean, I, you know, I, I never, I was not friends with Tucker. I, you know, I, I, he's someone that I've known for a long time, just because it's a small world of political journalists, and he's someone who's always known everybody. I think people who knew him a lot better than I did during those days, I think are, you know, they're really genuinely, I think, kind of of upset by his, his, his transformation and, you know, for the past, you know, almost like 10 years or so, I think whenever you get, you know, two or more political journalists together in a room, I mean, inevitably the conversation will at some point come around to Tucker and sort of asking that question, you know, what. What happened? Does he really think these things? Did he think these things back when we were friends and he just didn't say them, or did he say them when we didn't notice? You know, I, I can't assess whether he really believes these things or not. It's. It certainly seems at this point that he does. You know, maybe he started off saying them cynically and it was a pose, but I think, like anything, if you, if you say it enough, and especially if you're rewarded for it, I think, you know, it's only human nature to eventually kind of conform to those views. I think, though, what matters, though, is that he is saying them and that people are listening to them, and he's influent. He's having a tremendous amount of influence, you know, not just on this current presidential administration, but just on viewers and listeners, and people are, you know, taking their cues from him. And I think that's what, that's what matter. He's more than just a podcaster. He's more than a media figure. I think. I really think he's kind of a movement leader at this point. And I think one of the reasons I wanted to write the book was I don't know if that. I don't know if that's fully understood by most people. I think there's a tendency, you know, especially among liberals, to just kind of dismiss him and ignore him and think that he's just, you know, a podcaster who has an audience. But it's all about clicks and downloads. And he, you know, that's, that's, he's just saying this stuff for money and ratings, and I actually don't think that's the case. I think he has enough money. He has. His ratings are Great. He doesn't have to worry that much. I think he has, he has bigger ambitions and broader aims than just being, you know, beating Joe Rogan in the podcast game.

Joanna Coles (22:17)

Tucker and Trump also have a sort of showbiz showmanship thing in common. I mean, Tucker was on Dancing with the Stars, which he took fantastically seriously, even though he was the first, the first person to be eliminated. Can you just talk a little bit about that desire to. Well, when I was growing up, it would have been called showing off, but the desire to show off, the desire really for an audience, what's that about?

Jason Zengerly (22:46)

I mean, he really wanted to stay in television. You know, his cable news career at that point had a pretty serious rough patch and he was on this msnbc, MSNBC show that no one watched. And I think he kind of realized that his future at MSNBC was, was in doubt and he actually tried to pivot to, to be a, a non political person on television. You know, he, he did Dancing with the Stars as a way, I think, to kind of introduce himself to America as someone who wasn't, you know, wearing the bow tie and sitting at the desk debating James Carville. You know, beyond that, he tried to become a game show host. He filmed these, these game show pilots. And I think he, he envisioned a career in television that had nothing to do with politics. And, you know, I think, think it's similar to Trump in that they both just, they, they want to be on tv. They, they take a lot of, they take a lot of pleasure and solace from being in front of a camera. And, and they also have an ability to just, just kind of deal with any setback and roll with it and keep on plugging away. And, and there's a, almost like a long game quality to them that, you know, in another context would be admirable, right, that they, they just sort of keep their noses goes, you know, to the grindstone and keep on working and, and are never, they're never, they're never embarrassed. They're never, they really don't feel a sense of shame. I mean, it was funny when Tucker did Dancing with the Stars. I mean, this was not too far removed from his, his magazine glory days. And I think a lot of people who, you know, knew him in that iteration were just like horrified that here is this, like, it was bad enough that he was doing Crossfire, having this sort of bad show on msnbc, but this guy's going on Dancing with the Stars with, you know, these third tier celebrities. And Tucker, you know, for, I don't think he didn't feel that he was, he was just like, this is, you know, this is a way to stay in the game. This is, this, I think this is kind of fun. And, and Trump, I think, has, has that same, that same quality. And they both, and they both are charismatic and they both are, you know, they're showmen and they're capable as entertainers. I mean, the genesis of the book was, you know, after, after January 6th, I was talking to my agent about a different kind of book, and it was going to be about sort of the Republican war that was about to take place because Donald Trump was, you know, obviously not going to ever run for anything again. And I was, yeah, we were right about that. And I was, I was talking about the various people who were going to try to inherit Trump's supporters and win them over, whether it was, you know, Ron DeSantis or Josh Hawley or Ted Cruz. And I was saying to my agent, like, the thing about it is these guys can stake out as many anti immigration policies as they want, as many anti trade policies. Like, they're never going to win over Trump supporters because they don't, don't have his entertainment abilities, they don't have his charisma. And just as an aside, I said something like, you know, really the only person who could do that is Tucker Carlson, and that, that became the book, basically. But, yeah, but next, next to Trump, you know, after Trump, I think Tucker is the, the most kind of entertaining, charismatic figure on the right. And I think certainly compared to someone like JD Pants. And I think that that, that's one of the things that makes him so, so relevant.

Joanna Coles (25:57)

Well, perhaps he'll have to fight Megyn Kelly for it then.

Jason Zengerly (26:01)

Yeah, that would be quite a battle royale. Yeah.

Joanna Coles (26:04)

All right, so let's get into what he actually does believe then and these things. And you talk in the book about how he spends a week with Victor Orban, the Prime Minister of Hungary, really absorbing a lot of what Orban has done in Hungary.

Jason Zengerly (26:18)

You know, Hungary has become, and Viktor Orban have become this, you know, obsession of conservatives in the United States. I mean, they view, they view him and his country as a model. And I think Tucker was really responsible for that. Back in 2021, he took his Fox show to Budapest for a week and, you know, basically did like an infomercial for Orban and his, you know, his, his post liberal kind of neo authoritarian government, presenting it as a model to American conservatives of, especially on the heels of Trump's first presidency, of what a real you know, a real conservative leader could achieve when it comes to restricting immigration and then cracking down on the press and using, using government as a cudgel against your enemies. And I think there were already, there were a number of conservative intellectuals who had, you know, kind of seized on Orban at that time and were making their own pilgrimages to Budapest. But Tucker was one who, he was able to kind of bring that to the, the conservative mainstream and that, and that was something that he did a lot on Fox and continues to do. He takes these pretty fringe views that exist on the far, far, far, far right, whether, you know, they're arguments or stories or conspiracy theories. And he smuggles them into the mainstream and he places them in the conservative mainstream and then they, they gain an audience with people who, I think if they had encountered them in their kind of their raw form, they might dismiss them. But because Tucker brings them to them and translate them, translates them and makes them more palatable and seem more reasonable, they gain purchase. And I think Orban is a perfect example of that. And the degree to which I think the second Trump administration is using Orban as something of a playbook. Orban's playbook is their own. I think Tucker had a significant role in that.

Joanna Coles (28:11)

Jason, hold on one second. We're just going to take some nothing.

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Joanna Coles (30:49)

Terms ads and I'm back with Jason Zengerley, the author of Hated by All the Right People. His book on Tucker have a quote which I wanted to read because it's also so odd, the idea that Tucker's audience would find a week long trip to Hungary interesting. It's not what you would think of in terms of a ratings driver, but one of the things he says that you quote from, he says you don't have to watch your country collapse. He said you don't have to have leaders who hate the population or divide their own people against each other, who make the country worse, who open borders, who increase crime, who encourage people to live on the sidewalk and do drugs. If there's any lesson in talking to Victor Orban, maybe that's it. Which is really quite persuasive when you hear him saying it with his little bow tie and his kind of preppy haircut and his shirt.

Jason Zengerly (31:52)

Yeah, yeah, no. And it's, it's so funny to watch those episodes because his interview with Orban is the actual sort of interview he has is such a dud because you know, Orban, Orban is not a charismatic person. And you really, Tucker has to come on at the end of it and basically kind of tell his audience what they just saw because the exchange with Orban doesn't do that. But that's so often what Tucker does. He kind of takes this thing that seems kind of nuts or not all that appealing. And he reframes it and presents it in such a way that people are like, oh, okay, that makes sense.

Joanna Coles (32:25)

And I think perhaps makes his audience feel more intelligent too, because nobody wants to sit and listen to Viktor Orban nagging on. But as you say, the repackaging by a kind of jolly Tucker Carlson makes it more appealing. Can you also talk, too, about his interview that he does with Putin where he goes and he thinks that he's going to get Evan Gurshowitz, who is a reporter for the Wall Street Journal and who's been imprisoned in Russia where he thinks he's going to somehow spring him from Germany jail.

Jason Zengerly (32:59)

Yeah, well, you know, Tucker, had he, he had very much taken sort of Putin's side, I think, in, in Russia's war with Ukraine and, and Russia's bad relations with the United States. When Joe Biden was president, he would, he would stick up for Putin on air. And then after he was fired from Fox, he, you know, continued to kind of toe the, the Russian line. And he was rewarded for that by being granted this, this audience with Putin for an interview. And I, look, I don't, I mean, I think, you know, I think any Western journalists would, would do an interview with.

Joanna Coles (33:34)

Yeah, you make that point in the book. Who wouldn't want to interview Putin?

Jason Zengerly (33:37)

It's a great guess, right? And Right.

Joanna Coles (33:39)

No, it's fantastic.

Jason Zengerly (33:40)

I mean, the problem was though, that Tucker, you know, I think in part maybe because he just wasn't prepared for Putin and his, Putin's filibustering and kind of the history lesson about Russia and Ukraine. But also, I don't know if he wanted to ask hard questions of Putin. And the interview was just, you know, it, so it was a softball interview and it allowed Putin to just steamroll Tucker. Tucker did have this, you know, ulterior motive of trying to free Evan Gershowitz, the Wall Street Journal reporter who had been imprisoned on trumped up charges. And, you know, I mean, kudos to Tucker for, you know, trying to do that, you know, and he told Putin, you know, this. Why, why are you keeping this kid? It's, I mean, it was a very, I think, like, humane thing of Tucker to do. And, and I think he had had conversations with Putin's advisors before the interview. And I think he thought there was a real possibility that he would be able to return home with Gershowitz, which, you know, honestly, like, I think he probably wanted to do it just out of, you know, being like a decent human being, at least on this Instance, but also, you know, Gershwitz worked for the Wall Street Journal and Rupert Murdoch. And it would be a wonderful thing, I'm sure, for Tucker to bring this, this, this Murdoch employee home when Rupert Murdoch couldn't do that himself. So there's a little bit of a one upsmanship game going on as well.

Joanna Coles (34:53)

Well, and also because Rupert had fired him. But why was someone like Tucker, and this is something I really don't understand about this new group of conservatives. Why are they pro Putin?

Jason Zengerly (35:06)

There's a through line in Tucker's career of just contrarianism, and I think that is part of it. He also is very, very, very skeptical of, of American power and America's presence in the world. He really doesn't think that the US should be. Should be a presence, you know, across the globe and should be, you know, just engaging in any kind of conflicts, ideological, militarily or otherwise. And I think that he questions why the US And Russia should be enemies. He also, I think, has kind of an attraction to Putin for the same reasons he has an attraction to Orban. Is this, you know, this sort of admiration for Putin's strength and his, his hard line and I mean, his authoritarianism for, for, you know, lack of a better word. I think there's part of him that thinks that Putin is the kind of strong leader that, that the United States could use.

Joanna Coles (36:11)

I mean, given his conservative beginnings, it seems almost incomprehensible that he would switch to the Russian side of things in the invasion of Ukraine and also in the lifestyle that ordinary Russian people live. They have no freedom of expression. They have terrible economic situation, horrible housing. I mean, I still find it very difficult and very naive of him to think that just because Putin presents as a strongman, that that's somehow an answer for a country that, at least in America, still believes in free speech.

Jason Zengerly (36:53)

Yeah, well, I think that, I mean, even more embarrassing than the Putin interview were the segments, the recorded segments he did for his video podcast in Moscow where he would go to a Russian supermarket and marvel know, you know, all the stuff that was available and how cheap it was, and he went into the Moscow subway and talked about how beautiful it was, and there were no homeless people and there was no crime. I mean, either he is just completely naive or he's, you know, he's a propagandist and he knows that people in Russia are miserable and, and, and, you know, poor and have no free speech, and he's just ignoring that. And he's, you know, he's like Walter Durati and like, presenting this so completely false picture to, to serve kind of his own, his own ideological purposes.

Joanna Coles (37:41)

But, but is that something that he wants here? That he wants Trump? I, I, I understand they're all in love with Putin and they think Putin is a strong guy and Orban's a strong guy, but they can't seriously want the First Amendment crushed in America, do you think? Or is that what they're actually after? Do you think they want a place where you have oligarchs who essentially help themselves, themselves to the country's natural riches and everybody else's is basically poor?

Jason Zengerly (38:12)

That's a good question. I mean, Tucker, you know, it's interesting. He is not, he's not someone who's on board with Trump's, you know, embrace of, you know, these tech elites and kind of embracing AI and things like that. He is very skeptical of consumer capitalism. He's very skeptical of Wall Street. He's very skept of financiers. I think he's very skeptical of people in Silicon Valley. So I, you know, when, when you, when you sort of, when you bring in that part of the equation with Russia and oligarchs and, and the like, I, I, I don't know, Tucker. He might not, he might not sort of be on board for that. I do think that he seems to believe that you should, you, he, he likes Trump using the state to exact revenge or to, you know, know, put his, put, put his enemies or his perceived foes in their place. I think that's something that he supports and I think there's some, you know, analogs to Russia in that respect. But, but I do, I do think that his, his critique of, of consumer capitalism, it, it makes, it makes sort of some of the things Trump's doing now, I think he, he doesn't support those. I mean, he's not incredibly outspoken about it, but he doesn't, he, you know, he's not someone who's going to celebrate David Sacks. You know, I think he probably has some, some real questions and concerns about, about him and about sort of this project to, you know, embrace AI and, and, and go into business and relationships with these sort of folks.

Joanna Coles (39:47)

And is that because they are very skeptical of him and think he's, he's, he's just a kind of, you know, performing clown online to drive CL or.

Jason Zengerly (39:58)

You know, they think that he's, he's dangerous and that he's gonna lead a pitchfork mob to their tours. So it might be less, less that he's a performing clown that he's someone who could actually, you know, endanger their project.

Joanna Coles (40:11)

So let's, let's talk a little bit about his background too, because it's so ironic that his father was actually president of the American Public Broadcasting. Right. Something that actually Donald Trump, Trump's second time round and the second administration, has withdrawn funding for. So tell us a little about his background too, because his mother left him when he was a little boy, which must have left an indelible mark on him.

Jason Zengerly (40:42)

Yeah, his father was this remarkable kind of self creation. A guy who was an orphan, who was a juvenile delinquent in high school, got kicked out of high school, eventually became a successful television newsman, local TV newsman. And so Southern California. His mother comes or came from an extremely wealthy and prominent California family, the Miller family. Henry Miller was her, you know, great, great, great, great grandfather who I think was the largest landowner in the United states in the 19th century. She was a debutante. The parents get together, they have a short, kind of intense, but ultimately failed marriage and the, his mother got sort of became involved in, you know, the sort of the Los Angeles music scene, the art scene, a lot of drugs and ultimately the marriage falls apart and she left the family. She left Tucker and his little brother Buckley, and, and the father and his father, Dick had custody of the kids, which I think was really unusual in the 70s. A single father.

Joanna Coles (41:44)

Yeah, I mean it's very Kramer versus Kramer.

Jason Zengerly (41:47)

Yeah, very Kramer versus Kramer. And the dad, Dick was, was, you know, he, I mean, he was a very sort of male household and you know, he let the kids kind of, you know, he parented in a fairly laissez fair style. And at the same, at the same time he was a very, you know, he was, he himself was very conservative. He was very much a Reagan conservative. And I think he, he raised the kids that way. And the mom's more kind of hippie liberal influence. It wasn't there at all since she was gone, but it was something to you know, kind of work against. Right. Like she was like a cautionary tale for the kids. And you know, after she, after she lost custody of the kids to, to Dick, I mean, I think, and I think Tucker was eight when that happened. I don't think he ever saw her again. And I think they talked maybe a few times, but he had never saw her again. And then when she died, she was living in France at the time with, with an artist. She left Tucker and his, his little brother Buckley. She left them each $1 and their will. And that was, you know, Kind of the ultimate screw you, I think.

Joanna Coles (42:52)

And, and what did she, what was the significance of that, do you think, that, that she thought they weren't worth anything? I mean, what, she came from an incredibly wealthy background. She leaves them a dollar each. So it's a symbol of something, because why leave them anything?

Jason Zengerly (43:10)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, it's worse than leaving them nothing. Right? Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I, I, and I mean, the book is, I mean, it's not like a, a biography per se because, you know, most of the book is about Tucker's professional career. I mean, I, I, I think if I were writing like a, I just don't know if he's like, interesting enough or in some way significant enough to actually warrant a full fledged biography. If he were, I think I would have spent probably more time trying to tease that, that riddle out of just how much this impacted his views and what actually happened there. But, but it certainly, it can't, it can't have helped things. And you know, and for a long time, he didn't ever really acknowledge his mother publicly. It's only been in the past, you know, eight or nine years that he's, he's talked about it and, and told people about it. I think for a long time his Dick's second wife was an heiress to the Swanson frozen food fortune. And, and she actually became, it's definitely Tucker's stepmother, I think actually formally adopted him and he would refer to her as his mother. It was only sort of more recently that he's kind of acknowledged that his biological mother was this other person and that she was not part of his life. So I don't know. It's a better question for Tucker shrink, if he has one than for me.

Joanna Coles (44:29)

I would love to sit down with Tucker Carlson shrink. But it does shed some light on him that his mother left when he was 8 and she left him $1 and his brother $1 dollar in her will when she came from an extremely wealthy family.

Jason Zengerly (44:46)

Yeah.

Joanna Coles (44:48)

And it may explain why he, he is building an audience and his own media company and he wants to feel financially successful. And you said earlier he has enough money. My experience with people who have a lot of money is it's never enough. They always want more money. They always want more money. So, so you mentioned in the book, and you talked about it earlier, there's a moment where Don Jr goes up to see Tucker in Maine, and we should just say that he lives half his life in Florida and half his life, the summer months in Maine. Don Jr goes up for a hunting weekend, they go fishing and pottering around together, and Tucker comes down to Bedminster and sort of re. Ingratiates him himself with Donald Trump is very influential in getting JD Vance chosen as veep. Does Tucker want to be a politician himself? You said that you thought he was now leading a movement. Does he want to have the responsibility of being president, or do you think he would be a vice president to J.D. vance?

Jason Zengerly (46:03)

I think Tucker, I don't think he has a burning ambition to be a politician. I don't think he's like Bill Clinton. He's not someone who spent his whole life trying to become president. I do think, though, that he, he has things he wants to see achieved in this country. And, you know, right now he has a very good situation in the sense that, you know, when we talk about how close he is to Donald Trump, he's closer to J.D. vance. I mean, they have a real, I think, ideological and personal bond. And right now, J.D. vance is in complete lockstep with Tucker on sort of the things that Tucker believes and the things Tucker wants. And he is a fantastic vehicle for Tucker because he has this influence. That said, I mean, I think I could imagine two scenarios in which Tucker would, you know, run for something himself. And the first would be if J.D. vance started to diverge from Tucker and no longer advance the same same views, supported the same policies, I could see him maybe wanting to do it himself. And then the second scenario, and I think this is actually probably more plausible, is if Tucker concluded that J.D. vance just doesn't have the political talent you need to get elected president and that therefore, you know, that the things that Tucker wants to see achieve, you can't, you can't do. You can't achieve those through J.D. vance. And, you know, I would imagine that he would, he would look for someone else else that he could influence and be an advisor to and, you know, have his kind of his own cat's paw and, and maybe there's someone out there like that, maybe Bobby Kennedy Jr. I, I don't know. But if he couldn't find that person, then, yes, I could definitely see him saying, all right, I'm just going to do it myself.

Joanna Coles (47:39)

Jason, we're just going to take a quick break for some.

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Joanna Coles (49:35)

Bonuses. And I'm back with Jason Zengerly, the author of Hated by All the Right People, his new book on the right wing influence influencer Tucker Carlson. Yes, one of the other things I should mention is in the book Howard Lutnick has reassured people that RFK Jr will not get the Health and Human Services Ministry. And in fact it's Tucker who ends up influencing Trump to give him that role where he has been enormously influential in a very short span of time and not for the good.

Jason Zengerly (50:11)

Yeah, I mean during the transition Tucker was someone who had a hand in an number of personnel appointments. I mean he was, he was making arguments on behalf of people they were considering whether it was Bobby Kennedy Jr. Or Tulsi Gabbard or even sub cabinet positions. He had, he had people in mind. And you know, there are all sorts of people banging on Trump's door and saying you should pick for this person, you should pick that person. And there were people, I think the Tucker suggested who Weren't picked, but there were a number who were. And, and you know, he, he has these very tight relationships with a number of people throughout the administration.

Joanna Coles (50:43)

So how seriously should we take it when he does things like interview and give Nick Fuentes a platform?

Jason Zengerly (50:51)

Well, I think we should take it seriously for a couple reasons. One, I do think he's introducing Nick Fuentes to an audience that maybe didn't know Nick Fuentes before. And he's introducing him in a way that is, is almost serving as an endorsement of Fuentes. I mean, Tucker can do a tough interview and you know, we, when we saw that back when he had Ted Cruz on in the run up to the first attack on Iran or well, so far the only attack on Iran there, the first, you know, and he, he kind of humiliated Cruz on that show because he just, he, you know, he asked, asking Cruz like, you know, how, how what's the population of Iran, this country whose regime you want to topple. And Cruz didn't know.

Joanna Coles (51:26)

Right? Had no idea. Yeah, I mean, it was embarrassing for Tesla.

Jason Zengerly (51:31)

He could have, he could have done the same thing with Nick Fuentes and he didn't. He had this very sort of cordial softball interview with him. But I think what was interesting to me, at least about the Fuentes interview was that the television, Tucker felt the need to have him on because he had been very critical of Fuentes and he had, you know, he dismissed him as, you know, he called him like a weird little gay kid living in his parents basement. And he, he, he said that he thought Fuentes was a, was a fed, that he was, you know, a government agent sort of designed to discredit right wing voices. And after he made those criticisms of Fuentes, Fuentes went on his own show and attacked Tucker and said that he was, you know, opposer and that he didn't really support, you know, MAGA and things like that. And they were having this feud and if you sort of tracked it on social media, I mean Tucker was losing like Fuentes's fans, these sort of disaffected.

Joanna Coles (52:23)

Young men, they're called groipers.

Jason Zengerly (52:26)

The gripers. Yeah, the gripers were turning against Tucker and I think Tucker has, has made the calculus that to be successful in conservative media and, and beyond that, in conservative politics these days, days you need, you need the neo Nazis. Like you can't, you have to have them in your corner. You have to have them as your audience. You have to have them as your voters. And he had Fuentes on the show. He was extending an olive Branch to Fuentes. He was trying to, I think, end their feud. And that. That, to me, was what was interesting because Tucker, you know, has a very finely tuned professional and political radar, and he's very good at skating to where. Where the puck is going to be. And I think we've seen that, especially over the last decade. And the fact that he had Fuentes on and that he was so cordial to Fuentes, I think shows that he thinks that's where the energy is in the conservative movement these days, which is really alarming.

Joanna Coles (53:23)

I mean, we should point out that Nick Fuentes has some really, truly terrible, terrible views.

Jason Zengerly (53:29)

Very openly racist, anti semitic. Yeah, no, it's. I mean, it's. It's.

Joanna Coles (53:34)

And I mean, disturbing views. Really disturbing views for anybody to hold in modern America.

Jason Zengerly (53:40)

Yeah, and. And I. But that. That has. That has an audience and that has supporters and that has. Especially among young people. And I think, you know, Tucker is a. Is a real weathervane in that way. And that's why I think it's significant that he had Fuentes on, because Tucker's been right about a lot of stuff. And terms of what. What conservatives believe and what. What this. Where the movement is headed and. And the fact that he thinks someone like Fuentes is. Is important and someone he has to make peace with, I think that's a. That's a troubling sign.

Joanna Coles (54:15)

Your brother is called Tucker. And there's a wonderful note in the acknowledgments where you say that you had. Every time you texted him or emailed him, you had to make triple sure that you weren't actually. And sending it. Sending a missive to Tucker Carlson. Did you manage to do that?

Jason Zengerly (54:32)

I. I miss text people all the time, but actually, my wife made me change Tucker Carlson's entry in my phone to T. Carlson. So it wouldn't say Tucker. So I wouldn't do that. And that. That prevented me from sending. Sending the wrong text.

Joanna Coles (54:47)

That's very smart. So you didn't end up having a Mike Waltz situation?

Jason Zengerly (54:51)

No, no, not that I know of, at least.

Joanna Coles (54:54)

Well, I thought it was a very good detail. Well, it's an absolutely fascinating book. I really urge people to read it. It taught me a lot about someone who I know is important, but I hadn't fully understood the extent of his influence. And. Well, I urge people to read it. Cause it's alarming where the puck is going. If you're right, and if Tucker's right that he's skating towards it, then we all have a lot more to worry about than perhaps we thought.

Jason Zengerly (55:23)

Yeah, no, I think that's. Yeah, that's the disturbing part.

Joanna Coles (55:28)

Jason Zengerly, thank you very much.

Jason Zengerly (55:30)

Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Joanna Coles (55:37)

Well, if you weren't impressed by Tucker Carlson's influence on the President, I hope that interview sets it in some context. And actually, I find it fascinating that Tucker Carlson's mother left him $1 when she died. What a weird statement to make to your son. Just an extraordinary statement. And also, what are Tucker's plans for the future? What does he want to be? Jason makes the point that he's really the leader of a movement. He's just not a podcaster and a performer. He's the leader of a conservative political movement that has Viktor Orban and to some extent Vladimir Putin as the strongman that he admires. Anyway, if you have been, thank you for joining us and leave us a comment on what you think about Jason's perspective on Tucker Carlson or what you think about Tucker Carlson. We're independent media, so we appreciate it. If you subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast and of course subscribe to the Daily Beast, where we will keep you up to date with minute by minute descriptions of what on earth is coming out of of the Epstein files and what on earth is coming out of our president's mind and mouth moment to moment. Because we have no idea and he has no idea. So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team. Devon Rogerino, Ryan Murray, Rachel Passer, Heather Passar, Neil Rosenhaus.

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