The Daily Beast Podcast

Episode: I Know Why Epstein Refused to Expose Trump: Wolff
Date: November 13, 2025
Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Michael Wolff

Overview

In this explosive episode, Joanna Coles and Michael Wolff delve deep into the nuanced, bizarre, and disturbing relationships among Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein, and Ghislaine Maxwell. Wolff defends his unconventional journalistic methods and reveals the behind-the-scenes reality of chasing the “elemental story” connecting Trump and Epstein. The episode covers why Epstein was so reluctant to expose Trump, what decades of emails and taped conversations reveal, and the resistance of mainstream media to air these stories. It’s a candid, sometimes uncomfortable look at the overlap of power, journalism, and scandal.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Central “Elemental Story”: Trump’s Relationship with Epstein

• Joanna Coles repeatedly frames Trump as “the best friend of evil,” referring to his close, long-standing association with Jeffrey Epstein.
  • Quote: “Donald Trump is the best friend of a deeply, deeply diabolical person.” (01:32, 05:04)
• Trump’s proximity and relationship to Epstein is described as all-encompassing: “joined at the hip for more than a decade in every aspect—personal, sexual, social, and financial.” (05:43)
• Michael Wolff asks repeatedly about “the smoking gun," pushing Coles to clarify what, if anything, connects Trump to the criminal acts Epstein committed.

2. Confidential Emails and Sourcing Ethics

• Michael Wolff reads out a series of emails from 2015-16 where Coles appears to be advising Epstein how to protect himself and potentially “let Trump hang himself” in the media, provoking discussion on whether this brushes up against blackmail or collusion ethics:
  • Quote: “If he says he hasn’t been on the plane or to the house...you can hang him in a way that potentially generates a positive benefit for you.” (02:03)
• Coles admits the emails look bad in hindsight but claims her goal was journalistic access, not collusion: “I am in proximity to a story which actually most people don’t see at this point.” (03:41)
• Wolff presses Coles to reflect on whether her dealings crossed ethical lines or risked appearing to manipulate sources for larger social/political aims.

3. Wolff’s & Coles’ Defense of “Relationship Journalism”

• Coles argues that traditional journalism’s rules don’t apply to her more immersive, longform style. Her approach involves “playing a role” to be invited back—allowing access to write the “story no one else can.”
  • Quote: “Am I playing a role? The answer is yes...You got to get more with a little honey.” (11:20–12:08)
• She distinguishes her work—such as “Fire and Fury” (on Trump) and her Murdoch biography—claiming these would not be possible without close, often disarming relationships with her subjects, even including “set of white lies” that “harm no one and produce the end—the story.” (12:23–12:59)
• Wolff challenges this methodology, especially when the subject is a convicted pedophile, asking whether the ends justify the means: “Some of the honey feels a lot when it’s a convicted pedophile.” (12:08)

4. The Epstein Tapes: Unpublished and Unwanted

• Coles claims to possess 100 hours of audio tapes from Epstein detailing Trump’s involvement with Epstein’s world—including explicit references to women and underage girls.
  • “There are hours and hours, upwards of 100 hours of Jeffrey Epstein talking about many things, but many hours...about Donald Trump.” (13:56)
• She insists the mainstream media, networks, publishers, and streamers refused the story out of fear of Trump lawsuits and discomfort with the story’s content.
  • “They are scared. They’re scared of being sued by the Trump administration...they don’t want to see Jeffrey Epstein in any more than that single lens.” (24:38)

5. The Power Dynamic: Epstein’s Fear and Trump’s Untouchability

• Wolff and Coles discuss why Epstein never went public against Trump, suggesting a “debt” or deal between the two. Coles believes Epstein was terrified of what Trump might do if elected (21:44).
  • Quote: “Epstein was fearful about what would happen to him if Donald Trump became president.” (21:44)
• The two contrast the fate of those in Epstein’s orbit compared to Trump, who went on to win the presidency and “hasn’t been held to account in any way.” (35:25)
• The “smoking gun” is said to be emails and photos, including images of topless girls in Trump’s lap, which Coles claims to have seen:
  • Quote: “Three of which I vividly remember, two with topless girls sitting on Donald Trump’s lap.” (07:01)

6. Ghislaine Maxwell, The “Unbarked Dog,” and Leaks

• The hosts discuss fresh emails implicating Trump as “the dog that hasn’t barked”—Maxwell's phrase for Trump’s absence from public accusations, and the implications of Trump possibly breaking a deal to pardon or protect her.
  • Coles: “If he breaks his deal with Ghislaine, Ghislaine gets to talk...as the birthday letter was pretty devastating to Donald Trump.” (34:14)
• The segment examines how Maxwell’s family continues to push for her release and how revelations from her and new leaks could impact Trump.

7. Media Reluctance and Journalistic Responsibility

• Wolff contextualizes media hesitance as rooted in legal fears and reputational risks rather than doubts about source credibility.
  • Coles: “There is almost no outlet, streamers, networks, cable stations, and book publishers who has not been pitched on this story.... Everyone saying no.” (23:04–23:21)
• Coles compares herself to an undercover cop—unafraid to “say what he wants to hear” to get the bigger truth but drawing a line at actual crimes (26:23–26:38).

8. Key Names at Epstein’s Table

• Coles confirms the presence of major figures at Epstein’s gatherings:
  • Bill Gates, Woody Allen, Larry Summers, Deepak Chopra (“eating an omelet like everybody else”) (38:15–38:42)
  • Tom Barrack (“the three musketeers: Trump, Barrack, Epstein”) – a pivotal connection who advised Trump never to take an official White House role, remaining a key adviser (38:54–39:44)

9. The Oversight Committee & Coming Revelations

• The hosts note that internal investigations and document releases are closing in not just on Epstein, but primarily on Trump, as interest in the “smoking gun” evidence builds (30:14–30:51).

Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Donald Trump is the best friend of a deeply, deeply diabolical person.” — Joanna Coles (01:32, 05:04)
• “I have seen the pictures of...topless girls sitting on Donald Trump’s lap.” — Joanna Coles (07:01)
• “Were you [Epstein’s] media?” — Michael Wolff (04:12)
• “Am I playing a role? The answer is yes...Tell me what you would not tell other people.” — Joanna Coles (11:10, 12:08)
• “There are hours and hours, upwards of 100 hours of Jeffrey Epstein talking...about Donald Trump.” — Joanna Coles (13:56)
• “Epstein was fearful about what would happen to him if Donald Trump became president.” — Joanna Coles (21:44)
• “Getting the story is the all-important thing.” — Joanna Coles (25:57)
• “His table sounded a really intriguing place to be. There were all sorts of people...World leaders...Bill Gates...Larry Summers...Woody Allen.” — Michael Wolff (26:59)
• “Eating an omelet like everybody else.” — Joanna Coles (38:33) [about Deepak Chopra at Epstein’s house]
• “I talk about this in Fire and Fury as them being the three musketeers, Trump, Barrack, Epstein, and they were together, the closest of friends.” — Joanna Coles (38:54)

Timeline of Key Segments

• [01:32]–[05:43] – Framing the Trump–Epstein relationship as core to understanding political evil and the “smoking gun”
• [05:43]–[10:30] – Wolff reads the emails; discussion of ethics, collusion, and journalism’s boundaries
• [10:30]–[13:10] – Coles’ defense of her methodology and past subjects (Murdoch, Trump)
• [13:10]–[15:18] – Nature and content of the Epstein tapes, media reluctance
• [15:28]–[16:23] – Moral questions: The journalist’s “white lies” and intent
• [21:30]–[22:10] – Discussion of “blackmailing” strategy, Epstein’s fear of Trump
• [23:04]–[24:38] – Media silence; fear of lawsuits; what hasn’t been revealed
• [34:14]–[35:25] – Ghislaine Maxwell, her secrets, and Trump’s exposure risk
• [36:01]–[39:44] – Notable names at Epstein’s table; “the three musketeers” connection; potential further revelations

Conclusion

This episode is a probing, provocative look at high-stakes access journalism, the murky world of powerful alliances, and the barriers journalists face in exposing them. Joanna Coles and Michael Wolff walk listeners through firsthand evidence, strategic choices, and the reasons why the story connecting Trump and Epstein remains so fraught—and so dangerously close to detonation.

Suggested Further Listening:

• Earlier episodes covering Epstein, Maxwell, and “the smoking gun” themes
• Michael Wolff’s interviews on “Fire and Fury” for deeper context on Trump’s inner circle

End of summary.