Loading summary
Transcript42 lines
- [00:00]
Commercial Narrator
I saw this app.
- [00:02]
Joanna Coles
I got a hit.
- [00:03]
Commercial Narrator
In the new Limited Series DTF St. Louis, Jason Bateman, David Harbour and Linda Cardellini star as three suburbanites who spice up their love lives.
- [00:10]
Andrew Loney
Wow.
- [00:10]
Commercial Narrator
Don't miss the new HBO Original Limited Series, DTF St. Louis, Sundays at 9 on HBO Max. It's tax season, and at Lifelock, we know you're tired of numbers, but here's a big one you need to billions. That's the amount of money in refunds the IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud. Now here's another big number. 100 million. That's how many data points Lifelock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it. Guaranteed. One last big number. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for the threats you can't control. Terms apply.
- [00:45]
Andrew Loney
This is one of the problems with researching this area that so much of the material, actually, ironically, the Epstein material is often there, but once it gets into the hands of the British government, it seems to be destroyed. And though the King has said in public that the court law must take its course and all papers will be made available, certainly as late as December, police protection officers were receiving letters saying that they were being reminded of their obligations of confidentiality not to talk. So it's the same old story of window dressing. And that is the problem with Charles, that if he is found to have, in effect, been perverting the course of justice, then he is in trouble himself.
- [01:28]
Joanna Coles
Joanna I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast and today we are examining what is going on in the House of Windsor, in Buckingham palace, in Windsor Castle with King Charles, with William and Kate. And of course, how are they all responding to, well, to frankly, the disgrace of Andrew, still eighth in line to the throne, formerly known as Prince and the subject of Andrew Loney's awesome book in entitled. Regular watchers and observers of this podcast may remember that we had Andrew on the very week his book entitled was released in the US We've been having him back to give us royal updates ever since. And I guess I really wanted to know what's happening with the whole questioning of Andrew. You all remember he was taken in on his 66th birthday 10 days ago and subjected to 11 hours of police questioning. Well, since then we've really heard nothing. So what's going to happen? Is he going to be charged? Are there other investigations going on? Or do we think this all gets kicked under the royal rug? Well, no one better to explain this than Andrew Loney, who spent three years writing the book and whose paperback of Entitled will be out in May. We had a couple of technical difficulties, I think it's fair to say, when we were doing this. So if you hid a bit where Andrew's face is pixelated or you can't quite hear, stay with us. I think we ironed out most of the issues, but in case we didn't bear with us. Andrew Lowney, it's fantastic to have you back on the podcast. Thank you very much. We had you the first week that your book entitled came out, and since then, the madness around the man formerly known as Prince Andrew. And now, just humbly, Andrew has only gotten wilder. He's lost his title. He's all over the Epstein files. We saw 10 days ago he got arrested. You are keeping meticulous notes on his whereabouts and what he's up to. But, Andrew, what have been the most damaging allegations against the man formerly known as Prince Andrew in the Epstein files?
- [03:45]
Andrew Loney
Gosh. I mean, there's been so much material. I mean, it's been extraordinary for me to see it, because it's gratifying to see that a lot of the stuff that I researched has been backed up by what's there. I mean, I think there are two things. One is the shamelessness in which he behaved and the fact that these girls were brought and they were joking about them and having playrooms and playtime. So that's the sexual trafficking side. But I think also just how shameless he was in terms of sharing confidential information with people like Jeffrey Epstein. I think it really makes a very, very strong case for him to be charged. I don't think with misconduct in public office, I would actually go after him for treason. I mean, the stuff that he's giving is diplomatic secrets. There is material there which is very damaging if it was to be seen by a foreign power. So I hope that the material now is there for the police to investigate him. They fought shy of this for years, despite people like DI Davis, the former head of police protection, saying that there was a case, but in spite of Virginia Giffre asking them to investigate. But it is extraordinary. Each day brings fresh disclosures, fresh connections. I think also it's really made clear the very deep role that Sarah Ferguson had in the whole operation and how the tentacles were spread so widely into so many different countries. I mean, my own feeling is this is a story actually about national security, about how it's very easy for intelligence services to penetrate Britain using the Royal family because they have no oversight, and some of them are very greedy. And I mean, we've got a story breaking in Britain at the moment about Chinese spies around Beatrice. But I mean, there had been Chinese spies around the Royal Family for years and no one seemed to be that concerned.
- [05:37]
Joanna Coles
Andrew, I can't believe that you're actually saying out loud in full seriousness that Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, you think should be tried for treason. Can you just explain a bit more and also how serious treason is?
- [05:54]
Andrew Loney
Well, treason is very serious and I don't say it lightly but, you know, communicating with a foreign power is in effect, what he was doing, I think is, I mean, one of the things I've been talking about in the last few weeks is a document given to me by American intelligence saying that Andrew was operating with. It's actually headed political corruption. Andrew Mountbatten Windsor. It's dated 15 January 2026. And I think we've had several stories emerge in Britain recently. Tim Chipman, who is political editor of the Spectator, wrote a diary last week based on his own Whitehall sources that the great concern is that this is a national scandal. I'm getting a lot of my intelligence sources saying to me the same thing, this is how it's going to break. And we're getting intelligence sources talking to the press now, leaking stories because they're being blamed for not having kept a proper eye on Andrew and Sarah Ferguson when they did and they complained about it. And I think we may even have talked on one of our previous occasions of how MI6 took stories about Andrew's activities in Kazakhstan to the Queen Private Secretary and was sent away with a flea in their ear. So, you know, I know from talking to my sources and one of them I interviewed actually at the National Arts Club when I saw you in December, that the intelligence sources come across Andrew and Sarah Ferguson not because they were targeting them, but because they were associating with people who were under observation. So this is really serious and I think, you know, serious as a sexual and financial allegation. Sarah.
- [07:33]
Joanna Coles
And so can you bring us up to speed on what's happened post Andrew's questioning by the police? They turned up on his 66th birthday. He was led away. What has been the result of that?
- [07:49]
Andrew Loney
Well, we don't know what the result of that has been. I mean, he was questioned for 11 hours. That may just have confirmed what they knew already. We don't know if he's going to be brought in again. It seemed to me a slightly heavy handed approach because he was only going in for questioning. He could have just presented himself at a police station. My own feeling is that, like Mandelson, he was a flight risk and he was about to disappear somewhere, hence the early morning raid. But at the same time, Private Eye reporting that the King and Andrew were both warned that the police were coming early, in fact came slightly later than they normally do. Normally it's five in the morning and he was allowed to get out, you know, get dressed and shaved and be ready for them. But I think what's going to happen now is we're going to have a long period where the issue is going to be sub judice. They're going to be conducting their investigations. I hope they will be interviewing some of his associates, like David Rowlands, his secretary Amanda Thirsk, et cetera. And I hope also that the King will be allowing members of staff, the protection officers, the valets, the equerries to actually give evidence and be released from the NDA so they can actually tell the truth of what was happening.
- [09:05]
Joanna Coles
I can't recommend your substack highly enough because it's full of all sorts of details as these things seem to be happening. Can you talk to us about the most recent revelations of Jeffrey Epstein having keeping girls in apartments in Mayfair and also the fact that Andrew seemed to have a Ukrainian girlfriend in an apartment in Mayfair, which is a very ritzy part of London for those who don't know it.
- [09:35]
Andrew Loney
Yes, I mean, it's an interesting story. I mean, it was in the book. No one seemed to pick up on it. And I do know that he was also running at least two mistresses in New York. I've got the addresses and the names, one of whom later committed suicide. So it's. I suspect that Jeffrey Epstein was paying for him because Andrew wasn't someone who put his hand in his pocket very easily. But of course, Mayfair is very close to Buckingham Palace. That would have been very convenient. And in fact, I had an occasion just a few days ago where someone turned up on my doorstep, a paparazzi, saying that here were some pictures of Andrew with one of his mistresses, which he wanted me to see. So I think we know that Andrew had mistresses all over the place.
- [10:19]
Joanna Coles
When you say they're mistresses, what's the difference between a mistress and a girlfriend at this point? He was doing so. He's entitled to have girlfriends.
- [10:27]
Andrew Loney
Yes, well, I mean, you know, it may be a rather old fashioned word. I think the thing with the mistress is that she was paid. He paid for the. Someone paid for the accommodation. And so she was a sort of kept woman. So I think that's where I would make the distinction. There were lots of girlfriends, of course, coming and going and there were lots of escorts coming and going. I mean, he was pretty indiscriminate, but I think there also seemed to be these women who, I won't say they were trafficked, but because it seems to be in a consensual relationship, but clearly were kept by him.
- [10:58]
Joanna Coles
So Gordon Brown, the former British Prime Minister, has now weighed in too, to try and connect the sex trafficking of girls through one of the UK's airports, Stansted. Can you bring us up to speed with what's happening with that too? And how does that connect to the former Prince Andrew?
- [11:23]
Andrew Loney
Well, it's an interesting intervention by Gordon Brown. It's not clear whether he had this information for years and is only now going public with it or has only just obtained it. He may well, for example, have asked to see his papers because he had vague memories of this happening. I think the problem with these flights is that we don't know who the girls were, often just said female. And many of the flight logs have been destroyed and this is one of the problems with researching this area, that so much of the material, actually, ironically, the Epstein material is often there, but once it gets into the hands of the British government, it seems to be destroyed. So the logs, for example, for Buckingham palace, which people have asked to see first of all, were withheld on national security grounds and then it was said that they'd been destroyed. We've got, I think, 11 now police forces looking at the different airports around Britain and women that were brought in. Some, we think for Andrew, some women have come forward. The men on Sunday have written a story about one woman who they don't name. I've certainly got some other names, other individuals who I believe were brought in. His driver used to go to Heathrow every Sunday afternoon and pick up two women who were brought to him on a Sunday afternoon. So I think, you know, if people are talking, there should be enough evidence and hopefully they will then testify to actually bring charges on the sex traffic trafficking as well.
- [12:51]
Joanna Coles
I think, Andrew, this is a story that has been dogged by suicides. Virginia Giuffre, Jeffrey Epstein himself, Jean Luc Brunel, the French model, modeling agency owner. And now this is, I think, the first I'm hearing of Andrew had a mistress who committed suicide.
- [13:10]
Andrew Loney
Yes, yes, I'm going to put some of this material in the paperback, so I better, better be careful what I say. But yes, I mean, as you say, there Are a number of people in this story seem to have had rather mysterious deaths. I mean, this suicide may be explained. I want to do a bit more research. I'm talking at the moment to her best friend, who's also a model who has the story. But it does suggest that there is a much darker side to the story than I think people realized. And when you asked, I suppose what was most extraordinary about the Epstein revelations, it is this rather darker side. I was being fed all sorts of stories about sort of satanic abuse and murders and unexpected deaths and I ignored those because it just seemed to be kind of unplausible. But it's something perhaps one should look at again. It's very interesting to see what's on the Internet, to see what's in these files which, which go beyond the stories. We've understood it so far.
- [14:12]
Joanna Coles
So as you pointed out in your book, and is now becoming clear from the release of the Epstein files, Prince Andrew had been the source of various complaints, internal investigations. Why has it taken so long for people to take these allegations against him seriously?
- [14:39]
Andrew Loney
Well, I think it's been a sort of loosening up process. So entitled kind of started the process and then we had some leaks that were written up, I mean, showing that, for example, both Andrew and Sarah had lied about how long they'd known Epstein. Then we have Virginia Giffre's book, which I think humanized the whole story. And then I think these Epstein links, the releases, I mean, there've been various stages of them have just piled on that pressure. So we've reached a tipping point and I think it's now very difficult for people to say we can't do anything, there isn't evidence. But you're absolutely right. I mean, when my book came out six months ago, there was no reaction. Both the palace, the police and the government could have done something. I've continued to fight to get access to Andrew's files. Certainly people who were speaking up very vociferously in Parliament last week had refused, for example, to talk to me like Chris Bryant. So I think people clearly feel more prepared to talk, perhaps that things have changed. I'm certainly getting a lot of people coming forward, particularly in the last few weeks, with stories, again, much more prepared to go on the record than they were before. So I think it is just this drip, drip feed of stuff which has just put his position as totally untenable now. But it is extraordinary. I mean, they could have done something in 2010 when Sarah was found selling access to Andrew as a trade Envoy, nothing happened. We've had press coverage of his relationship with Rowlands and others for 15 years and nothing has happened. There was a High court case in 2022 where unexplained monies were being paid to the York family. Again, nothing happened. We know that the palace tried to shut this story down time and time again. Famous occasion with ABC television and Amy Robach where ABC pulled their program for fear of losing access to the royals. So there've been plenty of opportunities to do something and the will wasn't there. People were afraid. Perhaps there was still, I mean, as there is remains a culture of deference to the royal family. Even with the parliamentary debate, it was only about Andrew because he was a common citizen. And we still haven't got to the position where any members of the royal family can be put up to any form of scrutiny in Parliament, which seems extraordinary. So, you know, there's some way still to go. I fear New Year, new me.
- [17:10]
Commercial Narrator
Cute, but how about New Year, new money? With Experian you can actually take control of your finances. Check your FICO score, find ways to save and get matched with credit card offers giving you time to power through those New Year's goals. You know you're gonna crush start the year off right. Download the Experian App based on FICO's or 8 model offers an approval not guaranteed. Eligibility requirements and terms apply subject to credit check which may impact your credit scores. Offers not available in all states. See experian.com for details.
- [17:36]
Joanna Coles
Experian what position does this put King Charles in with his younger brother being forced out of Royal Lodge and squeezed into the much smaller still 5 bedroom marsh farm on the Sandringham estate. I mean how is the King handling all this?
- [17:59]
Andrew Loney
Well, I think actually public opinion seems to feel that he's doing quite a good job. My own feeling and I think also what you can see on social media is that the same old strategy of doing very little, leaving it too late and hoping the problem will go away. The problem for the King is that and the firewalls are going up to protect him for plausible deniability is the King we know was involved in the settlement, probably putting money into it. But certainly in the discussions he was co ruling with the Queen for the last few years of her reign, he was well aware of the problems and did nothing, in fact I think acted to prevent the some of this coming out. And he has had occasions even in the last year or so to be much stricter with his younger brother. I mean moving him to a five bedroom house and sort of removing his titles doesn't really count. And though the King has said in public that the court law must take its course and that all papers will be made available, certainly as late as December, police protection officers were receiving letters saying that they were being reminded of their obligations of confidentiality not to talk. So it's the same old story of window dressing. What's happening in public and what's happening in private are very different things. And that is the problem with Charles, that if he is found to have in effect, been perverting the course of justice, then he is in trouble himself.
- [19:33]
Joanna Coles
Wow. I mean, this story is so wide and so deep and I mean there's all sorts of speculation that Charles is going to abdicate and pass the throne on to. What are you hearing from the people around Prince William and Kate about how they think of Andrew and how they're planning, once Prince William takes over, how are they planning to contain Andrew?
- [20:03]
Andrew Loney
Well, William has no illusions about Andrew. He doesn't like him personally. He can see the reputational damage. He would prefer to have a little longer to bring up his family before he takes on the throne. I think he would prefer that Charles clears up the mess and that could be the defining legacy of Charles, that he addresses this. I think there's a sense, as there is with Keir Starmer here as Prime Minister, that in some ways the punch bag could be left there as the lightning conductor. No one really wants the role and he can take the punches and then the new successor can come in with a clean slate. But I do think it is making the likelihood of perhaps Charles saying that his health is not good and that he should perhaps stand aside for those reasons and William coming in and William then making all the changes that I think he would like to make and I think are needed. So, for example, a streamlining, further streamlining of the monarchy, all the titles for non working royals removed, the crown estates looked at so that there aren't non working royals like Beatrice and Eugenie on subsidized accommodations, perhaps looking at removing exemptions in the Freedom of Information act, some reforms of the Royal Finances and particularly the Duchy of Lancaster and Cornwall. So I think there's a lot that could be done that would satisfy public opinion and the question is whether Charles is prepared to do it or it's going to have to wait for William. And you know, the big unknown is how ill Charles is and how long Charles will survive. And so in some ways the palace is kind of waiting for events to take their Course. And then I think will make their decisions.
- [21:50]
Joanna Coles
You talked before on this podcast about Andrew famously being the Queen's favourite son and the Queen indulging him. We know that Prince Philip sort of created the job of special business envoy for him, so he had something to do once he left the Navy. The Royal Navy. To what extent do you think the Queen and Prince Philip actually knew he was sort of funneling in prostitutes in quite the way that he was. Did they know, for example, when he was going to say, Thailand on official business, that he would have 40 prostitutes entertain him over the weekend? I mean, I get that they might understand, oh, he's the second son, he can be a little out of control. He wasn't facing faithful to Sarah Ferguson, his wife. But did they have an understanding, do you think, of the sheer extent of his corruption? And frankly, I mean, I don't want to sound prudish here, but debauchery, Yes,
- [22:51]
Andrew Loney
I think they did. I mean, when I studied Traitor King and saw Edward VIII's file, it was clear that he was being closely monitored by his own protection officers and everything was reported back to the palace and noted. And so I would be very surprised if this. I mean, it would have gone to the. To the monarch's private secretary, but it wasn't also raised with the Queen and subsequently now with Charles, and I think Charles probably would have been briefed at the same time as the Queen. You know, this stuff, some of this stuff was appearing in the papers, not the 40 prostitutes in Thailand. But, you know, I talked to a head of the Foreign Office who certainly went and made representations and presumably raised things like that with the palace. And again, the line was, you know, send them away. We've had the story of the suitcase in Kazakhstan with the $5 million. Again, MI6 sent away. The palace didn't want to know. And, you know, one of the arguments is the Queen just stuck her head in the sand and just preferred not to know. But I just find that very difficult. I mean, she ran a pretty tight ship and she knew what was going on. And they would have been trying to head off any possible stories that might have appeared in the. The press. So I think they were well briefed and, you know, the hope was that this stuff wouldn't come out and indeed, if there hadn't been this release of Epstein material, they probably would have got away with it. As I say, no one showed much interest when my book came out. It's only really this material the last few weeks, which has really been the game changer.
- [24:23]
Joanna Coles
There seems to be suggestions too, in the files that Andrew was clearly learning all sorts of bad habits from Jeffrey Epstein.
- [24:33]
Andrew Loney
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, Epstein was very experienced here. He was kind of tasking Andrew, you know, to see people. I mean, extraordinary stuff. Inside information about the public ownership of Royal bank of Scotland during the banking crisis in 2008. I mean, this was very sensitive information that, you know, should not have been shared with outside figures. And Mandelson was doing the same. I think the interesting thing is that if Mandelson is charged, it will be very hard not to charge Andrew. But, you know, they're already creating a narrative that Andrew's position was not a public servant, that there's been too much coverage for him to get a fair trial, et cetera. So we're kind of being prepared for some sort of fudge where Andrew actually doesn't go to trial. The last thing the Royal Family wanted is a trial. I mean, they closed down the Burrell trial a few years ago for fear of what he might say in the dock. And that is the fear with Andrew. Is he going to say that Charles never knew about this and why is he being punished? And so I have my suspicions that either Andrew will be moving to Abu Dhabi, though it's not such an attractive prospect as it was, or. Or they will find some legal technicality not to charge him.
- [25:57]
Joanna Coles
Wow. I mean, this is just. It's such a remarkable story. So, Andrew, what can you tell us also about Fergie Sarah Ferguson, who was married to Prince Andrew and turns out to have been just as greedy?
- [26:15]
Andrew Loney
Yes, well, I mean, I think that's the extraordinary thing, you know, just how blatant she was in terms of trying to hustle money out of Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, they were always talking about sums of £15,000 and my figures were 2 million. Well, we've now got a lot of testimony showing her asking for 20,000, 150,000 at a time. But it's a great mystery. Where is she and what does the future hold for her? I mean, she sold a house for £4 million only a few months ago, which may have been in the names of her daughters, but presumably she has access to that money, if she so wished. She's been running around the Middle east trying to catch money off various rulers there, and I think she still feels that she can make some sort of comeback. And I think she might. I mean, she is the great comeback kid, the Houdini of the Royal Family. And she will, I suspect, do a big tell all interview, write a Tell all book, make lots of money, not care now about the damage that she can do to her own daughters. She may well in effect turn state's evidence and talk about what she saw and incriminate her ex husband. This happiest divorce couple ever seemed to have broken up very, very quickly once Royal Lodge was off the agenda. So, you know, it is a great unknown. But I have no doubt that whatever she does, it will be in the interests of Sarah Ferguson.
- [27:49]
Joanna Coles
Do you still believe that Andrew, formerly known as Prince, is a flight risk?
- [27:55]
Andrew Loney
Yes, I do. I've talked to one of my sources about this the other day and they said he's so confident of not being charged that he doesn't seem to worry about it. I think the problem with where he goes is he can't be seen to go somewhere where the ruler is close to the British family because then that would create an embarrassing situation. So he's got to go somewhere where either they, they don't have any control, like China, or where they can plausibly deny the fact that they had anything to do with the escape. But you know, I think the problems with, with Abu Dhabi and some places have been named is that, you know, the Royal Family is close to those ruling families and they won't want to jeopardize that relationship. And clearly there would be a public outcry if the public here felt that King Charles had aided Andrew in his escape from justice.
- [28:52]
Joanna Coles
Wow. There was a very funny cover of Private Eye magazine, the British satirical magazine, which had a picture of Andrew looking at his watch and talking to a policeman. And he says to the policeman, officer, what is the, the time? And the officer says back to him, about 25 years, sir. If in your scenario Andrew is charged with treason or even if he's charged with, you know, misbehavior, public misconduct, what is the actual time in jail for something like that were he to be found guilty?
- [29:35]
Andrew Loney
Well, misconduct in public office has a maximum penalty of life imprisonment, so it can be quite serious, but has a high bar in terms of convictions. It's very rarely used. Most of the people are low level officials who get a couple of years. But you know, what they do is actually often a sin of omission. It's someone who was off duty, who didn't intervene when a crime was being committed. It's not about basically giving sensitive information to potential enemies and certainly people who shouldn't receive it. There is an argument that he will get a couple of years in an open prison. Justice will be seen to have been Served and it won't be too bad. I mean, a bit like going to Wood Farm, probably, you know, just sit there and watch TV all day. So that's one scenario. The other is that some of the other charges are brought more serious ones, like the sex trafficking. And he goes to a high security prison and he's in isolation and he has a pretty tough time. And in some ways that would be a very neat solution for the Royal family because if he's in isolation and behind closed doors, he can't really create much trouble. And I think they're probably praying that that might happen to Fergie as well. But, you know, there's less of a case against Fergie. She's not a public official, she clearly hasn't been involved in sex trafficking. But I do think that there is room to investigate her onto the Companies act under Charity Law, that HM Revenue and Customs should be looking at her. So she may not be off the hook either. But it's that this, this is uncharted waters and it'll just. It can go in so many different directions depending on who's prepared to come forward, the evidence that's there. And Andrew has a very, very highly paid lawyer who has a reputation for getting his clients off.
- [31:30]
Joanna Coles
Andrew, do we have a sense of timing in terms of if they're not going to charge Andrew, formerly known as Prince. What a mouthful. Would he get cleared in some way?
- [31:45]
Andrew Loney
Yes, I mean, you know, they could decide that the CPS Crown Prosecution Service could decide that they haven't got sufficient evidence to bring a prosecution. I think there would be a bit of an uproar if that happened. They could just try one of the lower charges. They could say that they were waiting to amass more evidence and the investigation may take some time. Kick this into the long grass and hope that events as, say, overtake whatever might happen. I think the latter is the most likely and there is no obvious time frame. There's clearly a lot of material in this Epstein files that would seem to me pretty conclusive about what he did because we see these emails. But they may want to question a whole series of people and mounting that case will take time and so this could be years. And that may be the neat solution that basically nothing happens for two years while they investigate.
- [32:46]
Joanna Coles
Well, Andrew must promise to come back on the week your paperback is released so we can stay on top of all the new details that you have. And many congratulations for staying on this story at a time when you faced a lot of hostility doing it. It was a hard book to report and yet look what you've uncovered. And then the icing on the gateau is the Epstein files, which just contains so much more information that reinforces everything you were saying.
- [33:20]
Andrew Loney
Well, thank you. Yes, no, it is gratifying and it's exciting the sense that books I were only a small part of a collective effort with lots of people, but it is exciting that people can be held to account, hopefully through good journalism and books.
- [33:41]
Joanna Coles
I love talking to Andrew Loney. We first met each other 40 years ago, though I can hardly bear to say that out loud, when we were both new graduates in London and Andrew was a literary agent, he was a publisher, he was an author, and his books have increasingly gone on to have amazing influence. Anyway, if you've enjoyed the podcast or you want to leave us a comment, please do. On YouTube, you can become a BB least tier member of the Daily Beast community. Online you get lots of extra content and exclusive content. And please don't forget to join my new substack where I'm jotting down all sorts of things as they come to me. And that's a beast pub Scream, as in primal scream at the insanity guys going on right now. So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Ryan Murray, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, Neil Rosenhaus.