Loading summary
Transcript86 lines
- [00:00]
Trimble Announcer
Trimble knows that for the work we all depend on where speed counts, there's no room for mistakes. Every turn matters. Trimble is the technology company that connects your physical and digital worlds across industries like construction, transportation, geospatial and beyond, so you can get hard work done faster than you ever thought possible. You can check them out@trimble.com with Trimble on your team, you're in command of connected solutions to overcome unknowns and keep work flowing. See what's coming. Take intelligent action. Stay on time and budget time after time, with confidence at every step, every decision, every turn. Because work doesn't move in a straight line, keeping it going requires the agility to adjust. In the field, at the office, on the road, everywhere. When you're ready to turn data into decisions, turn deadlines into finish lines, and turn possibilities into profits, it's time to turn. To tremble. Tremble. Confidence at every turn.
- [01:01]
Liz Oyer
Hey, I'm Elise Hu, host of the podcast TED Talks Daily.
- [01:03]
Paylocity Announcer
Did you know paylocity offers one platform for HR finance and it that means innovative solutions like On Demand Payment which.
- [01:11]
Liz Oyer
Offers employees access to wages prior to.
- [01:14]
Paylocity Announcer
Payday, flexible time tracking features which enables.
- [01:17]
Liz Oyer
Staff to clock in through their mobile device and numerous other cutting edge integrations are available to all your teams in one single place. Learn more about how Paylocity can help.
- [01:27]
Paylocity Announcer
Streamline work and bring teams together@paylocity.com 1.
- [01:33]
Marc Maron
Hey folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF. Today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. Love your service or get your money back, no questions asked. Boost Mobile offers the coverage, network speed and service you're used to, but at more affordable prices. Why pay more if you don't have to? You can get an unlimited plan for $25 a month that will never increase in price and ever. No price hikes, no multi line requirements, no stress. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find them online@boost mobile.com After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 per month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan.
- [02:24]
Liz Oyer
It appears that it's a very good time to be a white collar criminal. Because of this possibility of getting a pardon from Donald Trump, there has cropped up a who economy that extends beyond the President himself to people in his orbit with access to the President.
- [02:40]
Joanna Coles
I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast and amid all the chaos and the noise and the different stories and the Jeffrey Epstein of it all, it's sometimes hard to focus on specific stories which really illustrate the changes going on in the United States of America right now. And today's guest is does that in such an articulate, interesting way. I really urge you to watch right through to the end because Liz Oyer's perspective on what's happening at the Department of Justice is really fucking scary. She was the pardons attorney for the Justice Department. She was disappointed by Joe Biden pardoning his son and his family. But the scale of the pardons under Donald Trump and the money and the pardon economy that he has created really is quite, quite astonishing. And imagine her first day of work is under the new administration is learning that the people who've been found guilty of taking part in January 6th have all been pardoned. They've all been pardoned with none of the rigor and the research that should have gone into their background. Several of them have been rearrested for violent crimes, for sexual abuse of children. But Liz's detailed analysis of it and what happened to her as an expert civil servant is really a remarkable story. So no more time to waste. Let's get into it. Liz Oyer, you were the U.S. attorney for pardons, which sounds like, which sounds like a fascinating job actually. You started in 2022. So you caught the Biden administration and then you caught the beginning of the Trump administration. First of all, tell us exactly what you did. And then I want to get into what was it like issuing the pardons for Joe Biden's family and then how has it changed under Donald Trump?
- [04:59]
Liz Oyer
Sure. The Constitution grants the president of the United States the broad power to grant pardons to anybody that he chooses for any reason. And because of the potential for that to be abused or misused, there historically and traditionally has always been a non political figure, the pardon attorney in the position of advising the president about the exercise of his pardon power. So that was my job. I started in that position under Joe Biden and I continued in that role under Donald Trump throughout the first seven weeks of his administration before I was fired and then replaced by someone who's really a cult operative, this individual, Ed Martin, who is known to be a very strong MAGA supporter. So that was a major pivot in how the role of the pardon attorney has been occupied historically away from the practice of having a non political career person like myself and that da.
- [05:55]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so you're a civil servant. Talk us through first what it was like actually pardoning Joe Biden's family members.
- [06:06]
Liz Oyer
Well, the pardon attorney doesn't have the ability to actually grant the pardons, but simply provides advice to the president.
- [06:12]
Joanna Coles
So how does it actually work, the process? And are you able to be frank and honest with the president when he wants to pardon, say, members of his family? I mean, talk us through, for example, when President Biden was planning to pardon his family members, how did that work?
- [06:37]
Liz Oyer
Well, the president is not required to rely on the advice of the pardon attorney. And throughout history, there have been examples of pardons that presidents have granted on their own accord without relying on the advice of the pardon attorney. And those are really the ones that are most notorious, I think, dating back to Gerald Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon. There have been pardons that have been high profile and objectionable. Bill Clinton pardoned Mark Rich, who was a major donor of his. But in general, president have relied on the advice of the pardon attorney. In the case of the Biden pardons, there are certain pardons that were issued that were not going, that did not go through the traditional process of vetting by the office of the Pardon Attorney, including the pardons of the Biden family members. And from my perspective, those were a disappointing use of the pardon power because they feed into that perception that the president can use pardons to benefit friends and family in a way that's not consistent with the intent of the pardon power. But presidents throughout history have done that on occasion. It's not new. It's, you know, it's disappointing, nevertheless.
- [07:46]
Joanna Coles
So take us into the new administration. Donald Trump becomes our 47th president. Do you, do you meet him? Do you, do you have connections with his chief of staff, for example? How does the process work?
- [08:05]
Liz Oyer
Typically, the pardon attorney has a contact in the office of the White House Counsel and engages in discussions about pardons through the White House counsel's office. During this Trump administration, my office was never able to establish that line of communication with the White House. We were really, frankly, out of the loop about all of the clemencies that were issued at the start of the administration on day one of the new administration is when the January 6th pardons were issued. And that came as a surprise to me and my colleagues who learned about it on the news along with the rest of America.
- [08:41]
Joanna Coles
So at that point, did you begin to think, oh, there's going to be no role for me here? I mean, that seems pretty alarming.
- [08:49]
Liz Oyer
Well, the work of the office sort of shifted in a different direction under the new administration. We were tasked with working on the restoration of firearm rights, of the right to possess a firearm for people who had lost that Right. Due to a criminal conviction. That's not something that's historically been within the sphere of work assigned to the Office of the Pardon Attorney. There really hasn't been a process in place at all within the Justice Department to restore gun rights. So this was something new. And this became the focal point of the work of the office under the new administration.
- [09:25]
Joanna Coles
So the new administration comes in, you're already a bit disappointed because Joe Biden, the previous president, has pardoned his family. You're then assigned to look at criminals who want to get their guns back.
- [09:40]
Liz Oyer
That was the direction that things were moving when I left the position of pardon. And.
- [09:46]
Joanna Coles
Okay, and you were fired? I think it's fair to say, yeah.
- [09:50]
Liz Oyer
I was fired on March 7th on a Friday afternoon without any notice. I was actually in a meeting, and a colleague pulled me out of the meeting frantically and told me that there were two security officers back in my office waiting to deliver me with the termination letter and escort me out of the building on that right afternoon.
- [10:11]
Joanna Coles
And what happened then is. Is that what you indeed you found?
- [10:16]
Liz Oyer
Well, I was never given an explanation for my firing. Like many other Department of Justice career employees, I got a very brief letter that stated that I was being fired pursuant to the President's power under Article 2 of the Constitution without any further explanation. But what had happened leading up to my firing was that I was asked to make a recommendation to the Attorney General that I was unable to make. And within a few hours of providing my final decision that I could not make that recommendation, I was terminated.
- [10:54]
Joanna Coles
And was this a recommendation to give Mel Gibson, the movie star, back his weapons?
- [11:00]
Liz Oyer
That's right. I was asked to essentially write a memo to the Attorney General recommending that she restore the gun rights of the actor Mel Gibson. He had lost his right to own a firearm after he was convicted of a domestic violence crime. He was convicted of abusing his ex romantic partner, and he lost his right to own a gun as a result of that. And I was asked to recommend that the Attorney General give him back his gun. Right. I wasn't comfortable doing that because there's a great deal of data out there that shows that it is dangerous for people who have a history of domestic violence to be in possession of a firearm. Domestic violence incidents are much more likely to be fatal if the abuser possesses a gun. So that's not the type of decision that I could take lightly, and I wasn't able to make a recommendation. It was suggested to me that because Mel Gibson has a personal relationship with the President, Donald Trump that he was a suitable candidate for that type of relief. But as a career expert, my job was to apply my knowledge and expertise, and I knew that that's not sufficient reason that we would rearm someone who has a domestic violence history. I wasn't able to make that recommendation, and very shortly after I communicated that I wasn't able to do that, I was fired.
- [12:17]
Joanna Coles
And do you know if Mel Gibson's got his guns back?
- [12:20]
Liz Oyer
He did. After I left the department, the Attorney general went ahead and restored his gun rights anyway. And that's sort of illustrative of what's going on in the Justice Department right now. Career experts who are applying their knowledge and expertise neutrally are not valued or even wanted in these discussions if they serve as an obstacle to accomplishing the political objectives of the president. In my case, I believe I was being asked to make that recommendation because they wanted to give it a veneer of legitimacy. They wanted to make it look like a nonpartisan career professional decided that it was safe for Mel Gibson to have his guns back, and that's why they wanted me to make the recommendation. The Attorney General ultimately has the authority to grant this restoration of gun rights to whomever she chooses, and she chose to do it in the case of Mel Gibson, even though I didn't recommend it. So it just illustrates that I was being used to provide some cover for a decision that was really political. Sure.
- [13:23]
Joanna Coles
And then when you didn't give them that cover, they fired you.
- [13:26]
Liz Oyer
They fire a fee. Yep. And then they went ahead and did what they had wanted to do from the start anyway.
- [13:32]
Joanna Coles
So let's get into Trump's pardons, because at this point, it's a sort of record level. Bigly, bigly pardons, as he might put it. Now, as you pointed out, he pardoned all the January 6th participants on his first day. What was the sort of feeling when you heard that news from the news? What was the sort of reaction within the Justice Department at that point?
- [14:02]
Liz Oyer
Well, to some extent, we saw it coming because the President had said on the campaign trail that he was going to do this. But it really did come as a shock that he did it so quickly after taking office and that the pardons were so sweeping. I think everyone believed or held out hope that she would, at minimum, draw some distinctions between the people who used violence in connection with the January 6 events and the people who didn't. And those distinctions, in the end, were not drawn. It was a blanket pardon of everyone. And the scope of it was really pretty shocking to myself. Who's my colleagues in the Justice Department.
- [14:45]
Joanna Coles
So that was one sort of job. Lot of pardons. Can you talk us through some other pardons? And also this phrase that you keep referring to on your Instagram channel, which I refer people to, Lawyer Oya, which is how we discovered you. And it's really, you're so good at explaining all sorts of actually quite complicated, nuanced areas of the law. Can you talk us through the pardon economy?
- [15:20]
Liz Oyer
Sure, yeah. Donald Trump has monetized the pardon power in a way that no president in history ever has. He has essentially created a system that's a pay for play system to receive a pardon. Historically, pardoning applicants, for the most part, have been vetted by the Justice Department and go through a rigorous background investigation process before they are considered for a party. But in Donald Trump's world, what seems to matter most is political connections, loyalty, and money. So Donald Trump has been accepting pardon applications and granting pardons to people who are able to access him through political and financial channels. There are a couple of examples of this that really stand out. For example, there's an individual named Paul Wolsak. His mother was a major Republican donor, and she paid $1 million to go to a dinner with the president at Mar a Lago. And a few days later, her son received a full pardon from the president. The pardon spared him from having to go to jail, and it also spared him from having to pay back the money that he stole from the victims of his fraud. Most of the pardon recipients under Donald Trump have been people convicted of large scale white collar fraud crimes. And these are crimes that have had a drastic financial effect on the victims. They're crimes that have involved stealing money from investors, stealing money from taxpayers, and the government frauds on Medicare and Medicaid benefits. So things that have cost taxpayers and crime victims a great deal of money. And I have looked at all of the pardons that Trump has granted to date and kind of totaled up the aggregate financial losses, and they total over a billion dollars, over $1.3 billion actually, in losses to crime victims and taxpayers as a result of the offenses. Trump is party, and one of the things that is so unusual about the type of parties he's granting is he is relieving the debts, he's forgiving the debts that are owed by these convicted white collar offenders as part of the pardon. So he made it such that Paul Walsack didn't have to pay back the money that he stole. He actually was skimming money from the tops of the paychecks that were going to the doctors and nurses that he employed in a healthcare company. And now he doesn't have to pay back that money. There's another individual named Trevor Milt.
- [17:59]
Joanna Coles
So, Liz, I just want to be absolutely clear on this. Paul Wolsack, who was skimming doctors and nurses salaries, got forgiven by Donald Trump after his mother paid $1 million to have a dinner at Mar A Lago.
- [18:17]
Liz Oyer
Yep, that's exactly right. The thing that really struck me about the case is this is a case where Paul Walsack had, you know, high priced lawyers. He's from a wealthy family. They argued at his sentencing proceeding in front of the judge that he should not go to prison. And the judge who sentenced Paul Walsack to 18 months in prison said, I need to impose this sentence to send the message that wealth is not a get out of jail free card in this country. And then literally days later, Donald Trump sent the exact opposite message by wiping out the prison sentence as well as the financial obligations that Paul Walsack had because of his family wealth, because his mother knowing where's to attend this dinner and hall Walsack, by the way, he used that money to buy himself a yacht. He used it to shop at Berndorf Goodman's and other high end stores. So this is not the type of person that really screams out for that type of assistance. But in Donald Trump's world, the political connections and the money was enough to get him that benefit. And his is really just one of many examples of really egregious types of pardons that have been issued purely on the basis of political and financial connections under Donald Trump.
- [19:38]
Joanna Coles
And that million dollars that Paul's mother paid for a dinner at Mar A Lago, where does that actually go?
- [19:48]
Liz Oyer
Well, that's a good question. The New York Times has investigated that piece of it and did a really comprehensive story that kind of tracked the donation and where the money goes. But we're seeing that all of this money that various pardon applicants are paying is ending up in some form or fashion benefiting Donald Trump or people in his orbit. There's another individual named Trevor Milton who deprated his investors in a startup company. He was supposedly going to build the world's first electric powered semi truck. It turned out that the whole company was a fraud. There was a video showing what was supposed to be a prototype of this truck actually working. And it turned, it turned out that it was some members of his team had pushed this truck down a hill to make it look like it worked. So it was a fraud, the whole thing. And Trevor Milton owed his investors over $600 million in Mossex he paid. He and his wife donated $1.8 million to Donald Trump's campaign. And shortly after, Milton got a full pardon from Donald Trump. So that's another illustration of this kind of pay for play system where by spending just under 2 million, Milton was able to wipe out a debt in excess $600 million that he otherwise would have had to pay back to his investors. And the only people to benefit from that, Trevor and Donald Trump. It's a loss for everyone else, for tax carers, for crime victims, and for our justice system as what is there.
- [21:22]
Joanna Coles
Any recourse for the victims here? I'm thinking of doctors and nurses. How do they, what recourse do they have? Or the investors, Trevor Milton's investors.
- [21:34]
Liz Oyer
The only recourse for these victims is to file a civil lawsuit and to try to get their money back that way. But that's a very expensive and time consuming process. There's actually a federal law in place that requires that people who commit financial crimes pay back their victims. And Donald Trump is undercutting that statute. He's basically saying that it has no effect. By granting these pardons, crime victims are not supposed to have to fight in court, court to get their money back. It's supposed to be an automatic part of the sentencing of the perpetrator of the crime. And it was in these cases. But Donald Trump essentially undid that, that debt, that obligation by granting the pardons. So if these crime victims want to pursue getting their money back, they have a costly legal fight ahead of them.
- [22:23]
Joanna Coles
So basically, if you've, if you've committed a white collar crime, all you have to do is give some money to Donald Trump or one of his cronies and you get off. You don't have to anybody back and you're free to go off and do it again.
- [22:38]
Liz Oyer
It appears that way. It appears that it's a very good time to be a white collar criminal. Because of this possibility of getting a pardon from Donald Trump, there has cropped up a whole pardon economy that extends beyond the President himself to people in his orbit with access to the President who are accepting huge amounts of money from people hoping to get a pardon in exchange for legal services and lobbying services. It's been reported that pardon seekers are paying in many cases $1 million or more for high priced lawyers and lobbyists with connections to Donald Trump to try to get their applications to the front of the line on the President's desk. Some of these lawyers and lobbyists are being created a million dollars upfront and then another million dollars if the application is successful. And this is creating really sort of a feeding frenzy around pardons. The pardoning process has become a completely financial transactional process, not something that is rooted in principles of law or justice.
- [23:45]
Joanna Coles
Liz, just hold on one second. We're going to take some messages from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Royal Kingdom the visually stunning Match 3 puzzle adventure I first tried Royal Kingdom when I was waiting for a coffee and suddenly I was whisked away into this fun, story driven world with a kid king, a princess, and even a slightly anxious Grand Duke who's just trying to keep things together, which I might resonate a bit with. The story's immersive equal parts charming and clever. What do I love most? Royal Kingdom's beautifully animated scenes that make you laugh out loud. Royal Kingdom is smart, seamless and crucially ad free and no wi fi required. So it's perfect for those quick in between moments we all have. So if you're looking for a fun and adventurous escape, download Royal Kingdom now. It's free on the App Store or Google Play. Try Royal Kingdom today.
- [24:44]
Trimble Announcer 2 / Adam Grant
Trimble is the technology company that connects your physical and digital world so industries like transportation and geospatial can get hard work done faster than ever. Every day brings new challenges, decisions, adjustments, real time moments that matter. With Trimble on your team, you're in command of purpose built tech ecosystems and connected solutions that keep work flowing end to end. Turn data points into decision points, deadlines into finish lines and possibilities into profits. Check out what Trimble can do for you@trimble.com because with Trimble you can act smarter, move faster and lead with confidence. Trimble confidence at every turn.
- [25:23]
Paylocity Announcer
I'm no tech genius, but I knew if I wanted my business to crush it, I needed a website. Now, thankfully, bluehost made it easy. I customized, optimized and monetized everything exactly how I wanted with AI. In minutes my site was up. I couldn't believe it. The search engine tools even helped me get more site visitors. Whatever your passion project is, you can set it up with Bluehost with their 30 day money back guarantee. What have you got to lose? Head to bluehost.com to start now.
- [25:51]
Maya and Sim
Hey, it's Maya and Sim from Girls that Invest Podcast. If you are an IT or security pro, you know managing devices, identities and applications can feel overwhelming and honestly risky. That's where Trelica by1Password comes in. It helps conquer SaaS brawl and shadow it by discovering every app your team uses managed or not. With pre built app profiles, you can assess, risk, manage access, and even optimize your software. Less spend. Plus it simplifies onboarding, offboarding and compliance, all while cutting costs by eliminating unused licenses. Take the first step to better security for your team. Learn more@1Password.com special offer.
- [26:41]
Joanna Coles
And we're back with Liz Oyer, the former pardons attorney for the Department of Justice. This feels very much the behavior of tin pot regimes, the sort of regimes that Donald Trump, when he was first in power, referred to as shitholes.
- [26:59]
Liz Oyer
What's happening now is very corrupt. It's really the definition of corruption. Selling the instruments of official office for personal gain is the definition of corruption. And that appears to be where the pardoned power has gone. And it's not just detrimental to the crime victims and the taxpayers. It's also very unfair to the people who have legitimate applications for pardons that have been submitted through the ordinary process. There are right now somewhere around 14,000 people who have applied for pardons through the Justice Department whose applications are being ignored in favor of the wealthy and well connected. And some of these are individuals who really do have compelling cases for second chances through clemency. But those folks don't have the ability to jump the line to access the president through Mar A Lago or through the Oval Office. And so those folks are losing out, while people who are well connected and wealthy are benefiting tremendously. Well.
- [28:02]
Joanna Coles
One person who certainly got the president's attention was Ghislaine Maxwell, who's already been moved to jail. She's been already given a much nicer jail than where she was. She's been transferred from Florida to Texas. And of course, she was sentenced to 20 years for sex trafficking. Do you think, think it's likely that she's going to get a pardon?
- [28:26]
Liz Oyer
I don't know whether she will or won't get a pardon, but I will say one. It would be absolutely shocking against the backdrop of history for someone who has been convicted of a crime like the one that she has to receive a pardon. The idea that a person convicted of sex trafficking of minor children would even be seriously considered for a presidential pardon is, is quite shocking. It defies all of the norms that historically have governed the use of the pardon power, and it is completely inconsistent with the standards that the Justice Department applies in recommending parties for her even to be considered. But what Trump does is he dangles the possibility of a pardon to try to get people to do his bidding or to help him out of situations that are challenging or it pledge loyalty or money to him. Him, he doesn't even have to give the burden in many cases to get what he wants out of the transaction. And I think that's what we're seeing with Belinda Maxwell, her attorney. And she knew very well that Donald Trump is the one person who could bail her out from this 20 year prison sentence that she is serving. And so the possibility of a pardon is a very powerful enticement to get for assistance. Donald Trump, meanwhile, has a political crisis on his hands over the Epstein case. And Glenn Maxwell is somebody who might be able to help him find a path out of this crisis. So he dangles the possibility of a pardon to see what she might be willing to do for him that could help him. And in this case, that involves sending his deputy attorney general, the number two official in the Justice Department, to meet with her in Florida over two days to top bicker and see if she could either exonerate Donald Trump or implicate Donald Trump's political enemy or both. And that's really all Trump needed to do to get a benefit out of that is dangle the possibility of a pardon. So whether he gives her one or not is almost immaterial at this point to everyone other than Ghislaine Maxwell. You know, she's the only person who I think in the world who's hoping that she does get this pardon. But Donald Trump has gotten a tremendous benefit out of her just by dangling that possibility.
- [30:47]
Joanna Coles
Well, and she's already gotten a much better jail than normally a sex offender would have.
- [30:53]
Liz Oyer
That's right. Yep. She's also gotten that benefit. Her transfer to a minimum security facility really defies all of the Bureau of Prison's policies and regulations that pertain to where an incarcerated person should be housed. She got that benefit only because she was willing to sit down with Todd Blanche, who, by the way, is, you know, Donald Trump's personal attorney, looking out for Donald Trump personally, not for the people of the United States who he serves in his role as Deputy Attorney General. And she got a special benefit because she was willing to do that.
- [31:28]
Joanna Coles
So this isn't, of course, only Donald Trump, is it? He's got Pam Bondi as the Attorney General. This is also his top appointments at the doj. And is there any pushback, do you think, or do you think this is literally people being utterly subservient to the power of the presidency?
- [31:51]
Liz Oyer
Donald Trump has stacked the Justice Department with political loyalists at every level, and there is no one left in that building who is pushing back against him as he defies all of the norms that apply to the exercise of the powers of the Justice Department in our country. It's really shocking. The institutional guardrails that have historically reigned in the conduct of the Department of Justice have been intentionally stripped away. There have been people that have been fired from career positions that have always existed. For example, the Department of Justice has always had a non political ethics advisor which provides advice about conflicts of interest and times when the Attorney General or her staff might need to recuse themselves from particular matters. Financial conflicts of interest. That person was fired several months ago, has not yet been replaced. So throughout the Department there are intentional efforts to erode career expertise and strip away all the guardrails so that the Department can be used to accomplish the President's libfal objectives at all costs.
- [32:59]
Joanna Coles
Well, and I'm sure he doesn't want to replace anybody to talk about ethics in the Justice Department at this stage. Ten people who were pardoned from after the January 6 riots have been rearrested.
- [33:14]
Liz Oyer
Many of the individuals pardoned in connection with January six are back in prison for very serious offenses. There are a couple of folks who have been rearrested and sentenced to prison time for offenses involving sexual abuse of children. There is one individual who was sentenced to a significant prison term for plotting to kill law enforcement officers who investigated him. There are numerous people who've been invested arrested on gun crimes and other types of offenses. This is the problem with the failure to vet these pardon applicants. There was no individualized consideration given to the nearly 1500 people who received pardons. And as a result, many of those folks have gone out and continued to endanger communities and committed very serious crimes since they received the pardons only a couple of months ago.
- [34:06]
Joanna Coles
So you're a lifelong civil servant. How does this what is your reaction to this new and very fast corruption of the DoJ?
- [34:20]
Liz Oyer
What's happening in the Department of Justice right now is really shocking and it's really dangerous. My fear as a civil servant is that it's going to take something really awful happening before we really see the full extent of the damage that is being done in the Department right now. But the problem is on multiple levels, we're losing so much knowledge and expertise within the Department. We rely on that knowledge and expertise to keep us safe. People are being fired and removed from positions in important parts of the Justice Department like the National Security Division, for example, which keeps us safe from terrorist attacks. And these people are not being replaced with other knowledgeable experts. They're being replaced by political operatives or they're not being replaced at all. And it creates a huge number of vulnerabilities for the American people who rely on the Justice Department to keep us safe. And my fear, my concern is that we have not yet seen how those vulnerabilities are going to endanger us in the future.
- [35:25]
Joanna Coles
And it's fascinating that Donald Trump's friends haven't said to him, at least as far as we know, why are you validating people who are scamming investors? Lots of his friends work in the investment community. Why do you think he's so sympathetic to white collar criminals?
- [35:41]
Liz Oyer
I think Donald Trump is sympathetic to those in which he sees something up himself and he sees that, that white collar offenders are being unfairly persecuted because he can relate to those people. Those are the people that he can relate to. He has shut down enforcement of parts of the law where he sees some similarities between himself and the people who are on the other end of these investigations. He is selectively enforcing laws against people who he either doesn't relate to or he views as his rivals or enemies. And he is choosing not to enforce, enforce the laws against those who he views as his friends and allies and kindred spirits, which is really just fundamentally contrary to the rule of law system that our society is built on.
- [36:32]
Joanna Coles
And he's making himself rich and his friends in the process.
- [36:36]
Liz Oyer
That's right. So the pardons have gone largely to wealthy white collar criminals and to people who are MAGA supporters. There are a couple of really egregious ones, funds that have gone to people who aren't necessarily accessing him through money, but who are accessing him through their loyalty to maga. There's an individual in, in Nevada, an elected official named Michelle Fiore, who was convicted of fraud after she stole money from a police memorial fund. She was raising money to build a memorial to two police officers who died in the line of duty. And she stole the money, she embezzled it, and she used it on plastic surgery herself. And she received a full pardon from Donald Trump without spending a day in prison and without having to pay back that money that she stole simply because she was a well known, outspoken Trump supporter. There's another elected official, a sheriff in Virginia named Scott Jenkins, who had been selling sheriff's badges for cash. He was selling badges so that people who were prohibited from owning guns could obtain guns, so that people who got traffic tickets could use the badges, flash the badges to get out of their tickets. And he made thousands of dollars selling these badges and he received a full pardon from Donald Trump without spending a day in jail again because he was an outspoken, vocal Trump supporter.
- [38:02]
Joanna Coles
Liz we're just going to take a quick break for some ads.
- [38:07]
Trimble Announcer 2 / Adam Grant
Every day there's a new challenge to face. So meet Trimble, the technology company that connects your physical and digital worlds, allowing you to make decisions and take intelligent action. Action to get the hard work done. And the best part? You can do it all faster than you've ever thought possible. Check them out@trimble.com you ready to turn data points into decision points or turn deadlines into finish lines? How about turning possibilities into profits, then turn to tremble?
- [38:33]
Marc Maron
The market's uncertain, revenues tight and hiring on hold. That's why results driven companies are using upwork to keep work moving. Go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent from fast. No bulky overhead, no rigid long term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's up w o r k.com post a job for free and get started today.
- [39:03]
Paylocity Announcer
I'm no tech genius, but I knew if I wanted my business to crush it, I needed a website. Now, thankfully, Bluehost made it easy. I customized, optimized and monetized everything exactly how I wanted with AI. In minutes my site was up. I couldn't believe it. The search engine tools even helped me get more site visitors. Whatever your passion project is, you can set it up with Bluehost with their 30 day money back guarantee. What have you got to lose? Head to bluehost.com to start now.
- [39:31]
Maya and Sim
Hey, it's Maya and Sim from the Girls that Invest podcast. If you are an IT or security pro, you know managing devices, identities and applications can feel overwhelming and honestly right risky. That's where Trelica by1Password comes in. It helps conquer SaaS sprawl and shadow it by discovering every app your team uses, managed or not. With pre built app profiles, you can assess risk, manage access, and even optimize your software spend. Plus, IT simplifies onboarding, offboarding and compliance, all while cutting costs by eliminating unused licenses. Take the first step to better security for your team. Learn more at 1Password.com specialoffer.
- [40:21]
Joanna Coles
We'Re back with Liz Oyer talking about Donald Trump's pardon economy. Do you think that people are sufficiently aware of what's going on?
- [40:33]
Liz Oyer
I think there's so much news and information coming at us that it is very hard to stay fully aware of everything that's going on. I think that what's happening in the Justice Department is something that hasn't yet personally affected people enough to get the attention that it deserves. I think that it may, you know, I hope that it doesn't take something terrible happening for people to start focusing on it, But I think it hasn't gotten the attention that it deserves yet. If it's happening as joke corrupt, the president is really using the justice system to enrich himself and to persecute his political rivals. And that is something that ever happened on such a large scale before. And it's something that really should be upsetting to all Americans who care about the integrity of our institutions.
- [41:23]
Joanna Coles
And when you say something terrible might happen, what sort of things do you mean?
- [41:30]
Liz Oyer
Well, there are so many important functions that the Justice Department fills in terms of, of keeping our country safe, upholding the rule of law, and protecting our civil rights. And when you strip away the expertise and knowledge, when you eliminate the workforce that has the knowledge and expertise to perform those functions, you place us in a very dangerous position. The Justice Department is responsible for preventing and responding to things like, like cyber attacks, things like terrorist attacks, any threats to our public safety, and the demolition of career expertise within those domains within the Department of Justice has unknown risks to the safety of our country in the future, to the civil rights of all Americans and to the integrity of our democracy.
- [42:27]
Joanna Coles
Well, Liz, I very much hope you will come back and keep talking us through the changes at the doj. It's very helpful to get your perspective on it. And I will say that when I'm reading about it, I tend to glaze over. I see Department of Justice and you just think it's going to be so complicated. And I know there are all sorts of court cases going on at the moment, some of which are enabling Donald Trump and some of which are curtailing his worst instincts. So we would love you to come back and keep us posted with other cases.
- [42:58]
Liz Oyer
Absolutely. One of my goals for the near future is to post more, more explanatory content on my substack, as well as my Instagram lawyer, Oily, to try to help Americans who aren't lawyers understand these important legal issues that affect all of us. And I welcome the opportunity to come back to discuss these issues anytime. Thanks for having me on.
- [43:20]
Joanna Coles
And I should ask you, what are you doing now? Are you doing other things besides your substack?
- [43:27]
Liz Oyer
I'm doing writing, media education, and trying to figure out how I can best use my own platform and expertise to defend our democracy during this really critical time when it is under attack.
- [43:42]
Joanna Coles
So, Liz, have you officially left the DOJ now? I know you were fired. Are you still in touch with them?
- [43:50]
Liz Oyer
So I was fired, and I am appealing my termination through a process, an administrative process that's in place for federal employees to appeal firings that are unlawful. My firing was clearly in violation of federal civil service laws and protections for whistleblowers. But the Department of Justice has effectively tried to stonewall the legal process for seeking recourse in my case and the case of many other fired federal employees. So now I'm in a situation where I am litigating against people that I used to work with who are upholding the Department of Justice's position in court that my firing was permissible because the President can fire anybody he chooses for any reason because he's the president. And it's been a really frustrating and demoralizing process. Frankly, it has been very upsetting to see former colleagues in the department standing up for these illegal firings and taking the position that they don't have to comply with the orders and directives related to the litigation. One thing that I've sought throughout in my case is discovery. I've sought the documents that demonstrate that everything that happened leading up to my firing is exactly as I've said. He Justice Fortman has said that that's not why I was fired. They said that I'm lying. And there are documents, documents I know because I saw them and I wrote them that demonstrate that everything that I've said is true. But they are refusing to produce them. And there are defying court orders and rules that require them to produce them. They're not participating in good faith in the legal process. And to say that about the Justice Department, which is entrusted with upholding our rule of law system, is really quite shocking and disappointing and upsetting, I think, to me and to many other support.
- [45:38]
Joanna Coles
All right, Liz Oyer, thank you very much. Looking forward to having you back to take us through the really alarming changes that are going on at the doj.
- [45:47]
Liz Oyer
Thanks, Joanna.
- [45:52]
Joanna Coles
What an alarming perspective on what's happening at the American Department of Justice. The pay for play for pardons and the fact that if you're the victim of a scam, you're not only going to to see no money back from it, but very likely, even if the criminal is convicted, he might just, you know, pay some money and. And get out, not even have to go to jail. It's truly, truly alarming. And up to all of us to really pay attention to this. So thanks to Liz Oyer. Thanks to you too. If you have been watching if you're on YouTube, go to the Join now button just below this this podcast and join our membership so you can get extra content and be invited to all sorts of community benefits at the Daily Beast. And don't forget to subscribe to thedailybeast.com for moment by moment updates to the Madness. And don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast and also catch up with Inside Trump's Head, where Michael Wolf and I go twice a week on Tuesday and Thursdays on YouTube and it drops at midnight on Wednesdays and Fridays on Spotify, Apple, wherever else you get your podcast. But we are really trying to approach Donald Trump by understanding what motivates him. And I think you heard from Liz Oyer that what motivates him to free people who've already been found guilty by the justice system is this strange sympathy that he has for rich credit criminals. Don't forget as the first lady would have us be Beast thank you to our beebeast members Connie Rutherford, Karen White and Heidi Riley. We appreciate your support and thank you to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Erssen and our editor Jesse Millwood.
- [47:47]
Trimble Announcer 2 / Adam Grant
Every day there's a new challenge to face. So meet Trimble, the technology company that connects your physical and digital worlds, allowing you to make decisions and take intelligent action to get the hard work done. And the best part? You can do it all faster than you've ever thought possible. Check them out@trimble.com you ready to turn data points into decision points or turn deadlines into finish lines? How about turning possibilities into profits? Then turn to Trimble. Hi, I'm Adam Grant, host of the podcast Work. Did you know paylocity offers one platform for HR finance and it that means innovative solutions like on demand payment which offers employees access to wages prior to payday, flexible time tracking features which enable staff to clock in through their mobile device and numerous other cutting edge integrations are available to all your teams in one single place. Learn more about how Paylocity can help streamline work and bring teams to together@paylocity.com.
- [48:44]
Maya and Sim
1 hey, it's Maya and Sim from the Girls that Invest podcast. If you are an IT or security pro, you know managing devices, identities and applications can feel overwhelming and honestly risky. That's where Trelica by1Password comes in. It helps conquer SAS sprawl and shadow it by discovering every app your team uses, managed or not. With pre built app profiles you can assess your risk, manage access, and even optimize your software spend. Plus, it simplifies onboarding, offboarding, and compliance, all while cutting costs by eliminating unused licenses. Take the first step to better security for your team. Learn more@1Password.com special offer.
- [49:35]
Marc Maron
Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last.
- [49:38]
Trimble Announcer 2 / Adam Grant
Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily beast podcast at thedailybeast.com, if you enjoyed.
- [49:44]
Liz Oyer
This episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast.com membership podcast and sign up today.