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- [00:01]
Podcast Host
That was really good.
- [00:02]
Joanna Coles
Yeah.
- [00:03]
Podcast Host
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- [01:23]
Joanna Coles
Who is this guy? The gray bearded guy? Does anybody know who it is?
- [01:27]
David Rothkopf
Well, everybody said, gee, that looks a lot like Jeffrey Epstein. Trump is an idiot. There are no lessons to learn from watching Donald Trump, except what not to do.
- [01:38]
Joanna Coles
Could these be emergency signals emitting from the President saying, I've had enough. Get me out of here? What more do I need to do to show I'm not fit for office?
- [01:49]
David Rothkopf
All these theories, you know. Oh, Trump is a master Biden. He's. And he knows what he's doing. This is bullshit.
- [01:57]
Joanna Coles
I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast Podcast. You are in for a treat. We have a smorgasbord of drama for you today. We have Melania gate. We've got J.D. vance. We've got Viktor Orban, Loser. We've got the Straight of Ormuz. And of course, we've got my new crush, Pope Leo xiv. And to go through it all, tell us what to think. And frankly, help us all stay sane. We have David Rothkopf. But before we start our conversation, just a reminder. If you haven't subscribed to the Daily Beast podcast, please do smash the subscription button wherever you are. The reason we can bring you conversations like this is because we are independent media. And so we really appreciate your support. Thank you for doing that. And now let's get into it. David Rothkopf. I need help with my mental health. I need help with my mental health. David, there's so much going on, as
- [03:02]
David Rothkopf
the Jews say on Passover, what makes this day different from all other days?
- [03:08]
Joanna Coles
So we've got J.D. vance's worst week ever. We've got Viktor Orban's loss. We've got the Stone street of Hormuz being locked down by the Americans as we speak. We've got Trump and Rubio at the UFC match. We've got Melania Gape. What's going on there? And then we've got Eric Swalwell. We've got Eric Swalwell, who looked promising to be the Democratic candidate for the governor of California. Okay, but first, David, first we have this. Go, Pope Leo. Go, Pope Leo.
- [03:51]
David Rothkopf
Yeah. No, you gotta admit, I'm like a Jewish boy from New Jersey, as my prior comment just indicated. And I'm like 100% pro Pope Leo.
- [04:00]
Joanna Coles
I'm totally converting. I'm totally converting.
- [04:04]
David Rothkopf
I love this guy. I love his responses. He's clearly not gonna get bullied around by Trump. He took a swipe at Truth so Social this morning. He took a swipe at Trump this morning, but I think. Let's pull back the camera a little bit. The music helped set the mood. Trump's not content going to war against little countries like Venezuela. He's not content going to war against a fairly big country like Iran. Now he wants to go to war with the Vatican. And he is in the midst of. Of the biggest battles. Not just him. J.D. vance went over, had a fight with him. Pete Haggs said stuff. The Vatican got in trouble, got into a fight with it. The Under Secretary of Defense, Elbridge Colby met with people from the Vatican, apparently, according to a story last week, and said, you don't want to mess with us. We're the United States of America. We've got armies and navies and air forces. You don't wanna go and cross us, or you're gonna end up with another schism. Like, he made a reference to the Great Schism in an Avignon papacy. And then you have Trump going after the Pope and saying he doesn't like him, that he's weak on crime, that he has a bad foreign policy, that he likes his MAGA brother better.
- [05:27]
Joanna Coles
I mean, literally, it's fantastic. And I'm just. For those who missed it, we have a great story by Tom Latcham this morning in the Daily Beast where he's quoting the Pope. He's quoting the Pope, and he just says, I have no fear of the Trump administration or speaking out loudly of the message of the gospel, which is what I believe I am here to do. And you referenced him talking about Truth Social. He said it's ironic, the name of the site itself. Say no more. I mean, thrilling to see someone say, stand up against Trump like this.
- [06:06]
David Rothkopf
Yeah. But I mean, Trump's, you know, Trump, we always say, is unhinged. This is going even farther than this. What is the next step beyond unhinged? You know, he, in his true Social post attacking the Pope, said that the Pope wouldn't be the Pope if it weren't for Trump.
- [06:25]
Joanna Coles
That's right. That's right. That he only got the job because he would be able to tackle or deal with Trump. Right, of course. Cause everything comes back to Trump because he's such a narcissist.
- [06:37]
David Rothkopf
Well, right. But this, you know, it minimizes the role of the College of Cardinals. It minimizes the whole concept in Catholic theology that, you know, God has some role in this whole thing. It says, no, it's all about Trump. And then what does he do next? He posts a picture of himself as Jesus healing somebody.
- [07:00]
Joanna Coles
Okay, I think we have a copy of that for people watching this podcast who haven't seen. Can we put up the picture? That's. Wait a minute, wait a minute. How did that sneak in there? How did that sneak in there?
- [07:20]
David Rothkopf
That's not the picture. Trump has never looked that good in his life, even with AI.
- [07:25]
Joanna Coles
For those who aren't watching this but are listening, David Rothkopf has inserted a picture of himself as Jesus blessing somebody as a rift on the Donald Trump picture of himself. Do we have the Donald Trump one?
- [07:44]
David Rothkopf
I had nothing to do with that.
- [07:47]
Joanna Coles
Oh, yeah, you and AI.
- [07:49]
David Rothkopf
Yeah, me and AI, we're really on tight terms, but, I mean, can you imagine any other world leader running pictures of themselves saying, oh, yeah, I'm God. No, that's me as God.
- [08:02]
Joanna Coles
I Maybe Margaret Thatcher at one point, but no, I can't. And who is he administering to? I sent this picture to a few people this morning to say, who is this guy? The gray bearded guy? Does anybody know who it is?
- [08:16]
David Rothkopf
Well, Everybody, obviously, in all of social media said, gee, that looks a lot like Jeffrey Epstein. Which just proves, just. Sorry about that.
- [08:27]
Joanna Coles
Just proves you're absolutely right. I never thought of it. I didn't think of it as being Jeffrey Epstein. I was thinking more of kind of Eric Swalwell. J.D. vance. I mean, it doesn't look like any.
- [08:41]
David Rothkopf
It looks, look closely, look closely. It looks like Jeffrey Epstein.
- [08:47]
Joanna Coles
Just before we go on, I want to describe it for people that might not have seen it who are listening to this podcast. So it's a picture of Donald Trump that he's created on AI in Jesus, like robes, basically blessing someone who looks as if he's on his deathbed. And then there's concerned looking white people looking on. There's no person of color in the picture.
- [09:10]
David Rothkopf
Well, there's no people of color in heaven, obviously.
- [09:13]
Joanna Coles
Right, obviously.
- [09:15]
David Rothkopf
Because of the visa restrictions in heaven, obviously. I mean, this is. But this is Trump's view. And he's got light emanating from, you know, every part of his body.
- [09:24]
Joanna Coles
Yep.
- [09:25]
David Rothkopf
And, and he's a deity. And in his own mind, he's a deity. And it's gotta be in his own mind because literally in the course of the past month, he has alienated every major religious group on the planet. In the days between Ramadan, Passover and Easter, Trump alienated Muslims, making fun of them in his Praise be to Allah remark. Of course, it's the same guy who tried to impose a Muslim ban in his first days in his last term, and he said any Jew that didn't support him was an idiot. And now he's gone after all the Catholics in just a matter of days. You know, this is political suicide. But it's also kind of bizarrely self destructive, narcissistic megalomaniacal lunacy.
- [10:21]
Joanna Coles
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- [11:30]
David Rothkopf
And you've gotta wonder, because Trump won Catholics 55% to 43%, I think over.
- [11:40]
Joanna Coles
Right. And not over Joe Biden, of course, over Kamala.
- [11:44]
David Rothkopf
Well, yeah. But nonetheless, look at his cabinet. J.D. vance, that poor schmuck who's had the worst week of his life.
- [11:52]
Joanna Coles
Well, and we'll get into that in a minute.
- [11:54]
David Rothkopf
Yeah, I'm excited, but JD Vance just put out a book saying Catholicism means everything to me and his boss is in a fight with the Pope.
- [12:07]
Joanna Coles
Well, and let us not forget that J.D. vance last saw the last Pope the day before he died.
- [12:14]
David Rothkopf
Yeah, well, J.D.
- [12:16]
Joanna Coles
vance was his last visitor.
- [12:17]
David Rothkopf
Well, no, that's a sign of something. One suspects. And on top of this, Marco Rubio got known. Doing what? Posting Bible quotes. Very serious about his Catholicism. RFK Jr. Comes from the most famous Catholic family in America. The cabinet is full of Catholics. Did one of these people speak out? Has a single one of them said, you know, attacking the Pope and presenting yourself as Jesus is a little uncomfortable for me?
- [12:51]
Joanna Coles
Well, I'm sure they're all sitting around going, we love it. Absolutely. This is a good new role for you. Why don't you take over the church? The head of the church. I mean, I'm sure they're just sycophanting away as they are want to do.
- [13:03]
David Rothkopf
Yeah. And who does this leave Trump with? Evangelicals. That's all. And, you know, he's got a woman who's the head of his faith office, who is a story in her own right, who is the one who does these laying on of hands.
- [13:18]
Joanna Coles
That always makes me laugh with the laying on of hands. Cause we know he's supposed to be a germaphobe. And when she leans in with her hands, you see him looking kind of slightly quizzical about the whole thing.
- [13:28]
David Rothkopf
Yeah. But you know, he's like going with it. And so here we are, folks, in 2026 with a president who thinks it's okay to say, yeah, I'm God, I'm God. I mean, his performance doesn't suggest he's an omniscient, all knowing, infallible being, but he thinks it's okay. And so it goes back to your first comment. You said your mental health. I. I'm not worried about your mental health, Joanna. You, you seem very sound and grounded to me. But the President of the United States, he's. Did you see what he posted after he posted the picture of him as Jesus?
- [14:14]
Joanna Coles
Go on. What did he post?
- [14:16]
David Rothkopf
He posted a picture of a Trump Hotel on the moon.
- [14:19]
Joanna Coles
I did see that. Which, which would be great if he would put a Trump hotel on the moon and go and go and run it. I mean, I could see him as a general manager of the lunar.
- [14:27]
David Rothkopf
No, no, I think we could get a lot of people behind that.
- [14:30]
Joanna Coles
The lunar.
- [14:32]
David Rothkopf
Right. With or without oxygen. But this is literal lunacy.
- [14:36]
Joanna Coles
It is literal lunacy. Lunacy on the loon. I mean, lunacy. Luna lunacy is what I'm trying to say. Luna, lunacy. Even Marjorie Taylor Greene said it's an antichrist spirit, this insane posting of himself as God.
- [14:51]
David Rothkopf
Well, you know, she's pissed off because he wouldn't support her candidacy for Senate in Georgia.
- [14:57]
Joanna Coles
Right. And he wouldn't let her in the cabinet, but at least now she's outside of it, so she can say what she thinks.
- [15:03]
David Rothkopf
Well, I'm glad somebody can say what they think.
- [15:06]
Joanna Coles
Well, and they're saying more than that. They're saying, you're the best. I mean, who can ignore Pete Hegseth's entreaties every time he has to get up and say something where he has to go. And all this is possible because of our great president who is committed to doing the right thing. Blah de blahdi blahdy blah. I wonder if. Could these be. Could these be emergency signals emitting from the President saying, I've had enough. Get me out of here. What more do I need to do to show I'm not fit for office? Please tie me up and take me away?
- [15:38]
David Rothkopf
Well, that, you know, like that suggests that there is a healthy impulse somewhere in Trump that I just don't believe exists. In fact, all these theories, you know, oh, Trump is a mastermind and he's playing us and he knows what he's doing. And this is one distraction after another. And it's all part of his 4D chess. This is bullshit. This is a decaying 79 year old, addled, ignorant man who is also losing his marbles. And what we're getting here is the incoherence of an incoherent brain. I wrote a piece for you guys over the weekend in which I assert, and I will defend this, that Donald Trump is the most powerful idiot in history.
- [16:27]
Joanna Coles
I think you may be right. I mean, it's just. It's astonishing. How did it happen, David? I mean, we can't go through how it happened again. But do you know, I mean, I thought there was a glimmer of hope. One's always looking for glimmers of hope. There was a glimmer of hope in Hungary over the weekend. You mentioned it was J.D. vance's worst week ever. J.D. vance had obviously gone over to stump for Viktor Orban, and there was a wonderful moment where he was standing on stage and held up his cell phone and said he was to call President Trump. And the first time President Trump didn't pick up. And I thought, oh, my goodness, he's going to humiliate JD in front of a Hungarian audience. But in fact, he picked up on the second time round. But last night, Viktor Orban, who's been in power in Hungary for 16 years, actually conceded and conceded gracefully and said, essentially, the people have spoken and PETA Meghar has taken over. And I wondered if there was a sense of relief for Viktor orban that actually, 16 years doing this is quite enough. It's double what we Americans allow our presidents. But I wondered if there is a moment where you've just had enough and he realized that he was squeezed between Trump and Putin and this isn't fun anymore.
- [17:46]
David Rothkopf
Well, I mean, that may be so. And I'm sure there's a lovely suite waiting for him at Mar A Lago, because Trump loved him and had him there. And, you know, he'll make a lot of money in whatever he does next in his life as he's supported by the oligarchs and others whose agenda he advanced around the world.
- [18:05]
Joanna Coles
I would only push back and say Trump doesn't like losers and Viktor Orban has gone from winner to loser.
- [18:11]
David Rothkopf
Well, yeah, and I think Trump's gonna like Viktor Orban less, because what's gonna happen is the new government, which won by a ton of votes, in part thanks to J.D. vance. You know, J.D. vance went there last week. He went, put his arm around Viktor Orban, and immediately Hungarian Poles showed Orban's rating went down, plummeted. It fell because of associations with J.D. vance.
- [18:36]
Joanna Coles
Well, and probably Orban thought, good Lord, I don't want what happened to the last Pope to happen to me. Step back.
- [18:44]
David Rothkopf
Because, yeah, J.D. vance is gonna be like, you know, those sort of nursing homes where there's a cat that hops on the bed?
- [18:51]
Joanna Coles
Oscar the cat. Oscar the cat that goes and sits on the.
- [18:55]
David Rothkopf
Be the cat of death that hops on the bed and you go, oh, go away, Oscar. You're not here for me. My time is not up. But J.D. vance is gonna be the cat of death in this administration because he put his arm around Viktor Orban and immediately his ratings plummeted. But Orban is not just a symbol of how somebody can fight democracy, embrace the Kremlin, attack Ukraine and impede the EU and succeed, which is all the things that Trump loves. Orban became a kind of a convener of nutcase right wingers from around the world. This kind of global coalition of anti democratic ethno nationalists that includes Bibi Netanyahu and Narendra Modi and Erdogan and Bolsonaro when he was in power in Brazil and Milei in Argentina and so forth. And this hub that facilitated that and funneled money to European right wing movements from Russian oligarchs, that's going to go. But worse, the new prime minister, who won a greater than 2/3 majority, swore from the get go that he's going to hold them accountable, he's going to investigate, he's going to go after their corruption. And all I can say is the stories that's going to turn up about Orban and the Russians and Orban and Trump and Orban and CPAC and Orban and American right wingers and Orban and right wingers across Europe, it's going to be super damned uncomfortable for Trump and all these others. So it's not just a loss, it's not just a roadmap for Democrats here on how do you defeat somebody like this? And by the way, punchline have a huge turnout so they can't cheat their way with little maneuvers into a victory. You have to have a huge turnout and you have to say you're gonna hold them accountable. But it's also something that could have long term negative consequences thanks to these investigations that are going to start now in Hungary. And so you want to feel good, you want like a little feel good moment. It could be that this year we see Orban go down, there will be an election in Israel and Netanyahu is increasingly unpopular as his war with Iran becomes less popular. You could see Netanyahu lose and you could see the right wing maga, Mike Johnson, GOP control, at least of the House go. And today there's a new report out from one of the leading political analyst firms in Washington that says that they could lose the Senate too. So this could be sort of the beginning of the end of global maga. And that's something that maybe some of that triumphant music we had at the beginning could go along with as well.
- [22:15]
Joanna Coles
That's so interesting. I hadn't thought of it from that perspective. The two things I was left with were, does Trump look at this and think, you know what? Viktor Orban's mistake was holding an election, and we should not hold elections and we will lean in further to our attempts to disrupt the midterms. And then I thought, why isn't Gavin Newsom standing on the stage with Viktor Orban? Because Newsom pops up wherever there is a good moment. And if I were the Democrats, I would be studying the Auburn decline or defeat and Peter Megher's incredible win.
- [22:57]
David Rothkopf
Actually, yeah, of course they should be studying it, because what they had was a guy who was very clear about where he stood. And let's be honest, he's a center right candidate. He is not some wacky liberal candidate. But said he was pro NATO, said he was pro eu, said he was anti corruption, said he was pro democracy. Those were the things that the people of Hungary were looking for. And then he worked and he worked and he worked to get this big turnout. I think they got nearly up to 75% turnout, record turnout in Hungary and all of those things. And this promise to hold Orban accountable was the formula. And although Hungary is a little country and far from the United States, that kind of clarity on message, that kind of clarity on accountability, that kind of grassroots effort to get a big turnout are all key. And then there's one final thing that there is key, and that is this is not an election year, or I frankly think a period in which things are about left versus right. This was an argument about past versus future. Orban wants to turn the clock back. Trump wants to turn the clock back. They want to go to old laws, they want to go to old ways, they want to reverse global trends. The candidate that is going to be embraced is going to be the candidate who says, no, I'm about the future. I'm about how do we do better tomorrow. I'm about how do we succeed in a global environment with new competitors and new technologies and deal with the reality of today and the future. And so I think elections will be past versus future, not left versus right.
- [24:47]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so I have a question for you along those lines then. Has there ever been. And you're sitting in front of a very erudite bookshelf.
- [24:57]
David Rothkopf
Yes.
- [24:57]
Joanna Coles
Has there been ever a president who has dumped his vice president mid reign, mid presidency? Because if I were, Donald Trump and I were looking at what happened immediately in the polls in Hungary when JD Vance stood at the rally holding Viktor Orban's Hand. As they raised their hands together. And I looked at JD Vance coming home somewhat slumped from the talks in Pakistan, the Iran, the Iranian, the Iranian peace talks. Am I thinking I should dump JD Vance? How can I get someone else in here as fast as I can? I feel like Trump has broken other norms. Why couldn't he break this one?
- [25:46]
David Rothkopf
Well, first of all, it's not a norm. This has happened multiple times in our history. It happened multiple times in the presidency of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
- [25:54]
Joanna Coles
Well, he went through vice presidents, he
- [25:57]
David Rothkopf
went through several vice presidents. And of course, Richard Nixon had a vice President who was had to resign because he was being prosecuted for crimes for which he was later found guilty. And he had to switch, but he nonetheless had to switch in the middle of the stream from Spiro Agnew to Nelson Rockefeller. So there are, I mean, we can find other examples in history, but Roosevelt's the best such example, I think Trump, Trump kind of likes this idea that there's a battle for succession between JD And Marco Rubio. It was very interesting that here in the middle of these negotiations, as you mentioned at the beginning, he sends off JD Vance, who has no international experience at all, has never handled negotiation to go with a team that had no capability to understand the issues, nuclear issues and others. We sent five people. The Iranians sent 60 people.
- [27:03]
Joanna Coles
60 people.
- [27:05]
David Rothkopf
They sent 60. We sent five, one of whom was Vance, one of whom was Steve Witkoff, whose track record as a negotiator in these kind of matters is terrible, one of whom was the President's son in law. Nobody was a nuclear specialist, nobody was an Iran specialist. And obviously even Vance wasn't empowered to negotiate. He had to apparently, according to reports, walk out of the meetings on a regular basis to call Trump to see what it was okay to agree to. So this whole thing was a sham. But the interesting part of this is this. In this administration, which has gutted the State Department, gutted the intelligence community, essentially eviscerated the National Security Council, gotten rid of all its best people, the Department of Defense, there's one person who's Secretary of State and National Security Advisor who has some experience doing this stuff, who is J.D. vance's rival. And he doesn't go to the negotiation. That's Marco Rubio. He goes with Trump to a wrestling match. While this massive, important negotiation is taking place, Trump goes with Rubio off to a UFC match in Miami. How weird is that?
- [28:25]
Joanna Coles
Well, and how unserious. I mean, we've said many times on this podcast that they are ultimately an Unserious government. And that felt like the most unserious comment of all. Though of course they were obviously, maybe JD Vance was kind of frantically texting them or whatsapping them or signaling them because Rubio kept showing his phone to Trump, which again, seems like such a strange gesture that what you imagine are world negotiations going on here are being sort of shown to Trump in between thumpings and yellings and spurting with Trump.
- [29:07]
David Rothkopf
He probably brought Rubio along like he was a prop. Oh, look, I have the Secretary of State here. He's going to do this kind of thing in a desperate effort to impress the UFC crowd, you know, like, who? You know, he's like, who's he trying to impress? Some, you know, steroidal, you know, over pumped, you know, aging wrestler or, you know, the gangsters that are attracted to the UFC crowd. One of the weird things about Trump is for decades he's been drawn to the fight crowd, to Don King, to going to fights, to being ringside. And everybody in the United States knows that the crowds that go to these things, it's this whole kind of dark underworld. It's one of the few places where the underworld comes out in public dressed in shiny suits and two revealing dresses. And it's kind of their equivalent of the Met Ball or something like that, where they get to go out and show their stuff for each other. And I think Rubio was there as a trained monkey. I think he was there as a prop to say, hey, look, I'm President, I got this guy, he's dealing with that war over there. And oh, look at the chokehold. That's a pretty good chokehold.
- [30:40]
Joanna Coles
Hey, well, maybe he's getting strategic ideas for a chokehold in the Strait of Hormuz.
- [30:46]
David Rothkopf
Well, he did come up with a real banger, didn't he? You know, the Iranians had a blockade which was screwing up the world economy. Trump's talks, his fake talks, his sham talks to distract from his genocidal threat from last week break down. And he goes, oh, I've got an idea. We'll blockade their blockade. We'll have a double secret super duper blockade which will put us in charge of things and show that we can do a blockade too. Although what does it do? Does it make oil prices go up? Yeah. Does it make the world economy less stable? Yeah. Is it easy to do? No. Military experts are right. Now, I talked to one last night saying this is very complicated, it's very hard to do, and it raises a lot of interesting questions. And I'll just Give you one. What happens the first time a Chinese flagged ship wants to pull in or out of an Iranian port and they encounter an American vessel? Are the Americans going to fire on a Chinese ship? Are they going to block a Chinese flagship from its mission? Are they going to escalate this into a global confrontation between the world's two superpowers? Because Trump got into a stupid war and he doesn't know how to get the fuck out. Because that's where this leads. And that's why this idea is one of the dumbest ideas that you could possibly imagine. And soon Trump is going to have to try to find a way to step down from this one, because it's just going to make things worse.
- [32:27]
Joanna Coles
It's enough to turn one into a prepper. There was a good line on Saturday Night Live on the weekend, which I don't normally watch, actually, but I happened to watch Weekend Update, and they quoted Trump as saying, trump doesn't understand why Iran doesn't understand that it's got no cards when it's literally holding a straight card. I thought that was a very good line, which sort of actually weirdly sums up the whole situation that nobody even knew before we started bombing Iran that Iran had the potential to hold up the Strait of Hormuz. Here we are. Well, go on.
- [33:09]
David Rothkopf
Everybody knew every war game, every war game that has ever taken place.
- [33:15]
Joanna Coles
Well, that's true. I know that's true. That it's central to all the war gaming that goes on in the intelligence communities. Yet what I really mean is, why didn't Trump know that? Why didn't he think this might happen? Why didn't Marco Rubio, with all his many jobs, how did not he understand that this was a possibility?
- [33:33]
David Rothkopf
Well, I go back to my earlier point. Trump is an idiot. Trump doesn't take advice. Trump had people around him, including reportedly, J.D. vance, who very quickly was out there leaking stories about how he was against this whole thing, you know, saying, don't do this, even apparently, you know, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Raisin Cain, was advising caution, and Trump said, no, I understand this better, you know, and I'm going to ignore all the evidence and all the history and all the war games and all the examples, experts, and I'm going to do it my way. And of course, there was only one person really egging him on, and we need to be honest about it, it was Bibi Netanyahu. Because Bibi has gone to every president for the past 25 years and said, let's attack Iran. And Every single president, Republican and Democrat, has said, no, I'm not that stupid. Bibi. 93 million people. This is a big country. It's very complicated geographically. It's difficult. They have a lot of leverage over the rest of the world. They can make hell in the region with all their proxies. But Trump fell for it because he's a mark. Trump is the sucker. He's not the master deal maker. There are no lessons to learn from watching Donald Trump, except what not to do.
- [35:06]
Joanna Coles
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments.
- [35:19]
David Rothkopf
But that's weird.
- [35:21]
Joanna Coles
Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com except what not to do. So you wrote another very good column for us on Friday about what on earth was Melania talking about when she got up there and said, I don't know, Jeffrey Epstein? Never heard Jeffrey Epstein, never met Jeffrey Epstein. Who is Jeffrey Epstein? I mean, what was she talking about? What was that about?
- [36:00]
David Rothkopf
Well, I mean, there are two questions there. I think that's a good question. I think another question is how does Donald Trump's wife walk to the podium in the White House and not have Donald Trump's team know what she's going to say? Have Donald Trump say he didn't know what she was going to say? I mean, this guy obviously can't manage a war, he can't manage an economy, he can't manage what's going on in the United States of America. But he obviously, he also can't imagine the house he lives in. He can't manage the people around him is the inner circle or his wife. And I think that's a bigger sort of red flag to everybody than the fact that this woman who America detests comes out and brings the story back to Epstein at just the moment. Trump has literally started a war to distract the country from this scandal. And so it is a story of dysfunction. And also the things she said were such lies, like, oh, I had no relationship with Epstein. And so then immediately hundreds of pictures of her and Epstein pop up and she said, and I didn't really know Ghislaine Maxwell. And all Of a sudden, you know, it's email, texts, hey, let's get together. Oh, I love you. God, you look cute in that thing. It's just ridiculous what she is saying. And I think the prevailing theory, and you'll know more about this than I do because you guys track this stuff very closely, but the prevailing theory is that she was trying to get ahead of some stories that seem to be on the verge of being released by a woman who was deported from the United States, who was part of this Jeffrey Epstein underworld. I think her name is Amanda Ungaro, a Brazilian model.
- [38:01]
Joanna Coles
And she came to. I think she came to America on the Lolita Express. She was brought to America by Jeffrey Epstein and a guy who then turned out to be the father of her son.
- [38:13]
David Rothkopf
Right? And this guy who is a sleaze bag modeling impresario in the same vein as Trump, who then if this woman dabbled in diplomacy, I don't even know how you do that, but they represented in the UN a couple tiny Caribbean nations. This guy apparently called up the White House or whomever he knew and said, this woman is a pain in my ass and she got deported. And so she's angry and she says, I'm going to spill the beans. And she did a kind of a nothing burger of an interview with Spanish newspaper El Pais over the weekend, but apparently she's going to do an interview with cnn. Maybe more will come out there. But Melania is afraid and she doesn't seem to care about anything else that's going on in the world except this. My final point, though, that I'd like to make, which is that Melania goes out and she says in your voice, not my. I did not know Jeffrey Epstein and seems to think it's really important to differentiate or separate, distance herself from this horrible sex trafficker when she is married to someone who has been credibly accused of serial sex abuse, of rape, and who is a fraudster, a criminal who is responsible for the deaths of tens of millions. Jeffrey Epstein is one of the worst people that any of us can imagine. But and here's an important distinction. Donald Trump is much worse than Jeffrey Epstein, and Melania Trump is married to him.
- [40:05]
Joanna Coles
Well, she seemed very keen to have the victims give evidence to the oversight Committee. And of course, Donald Trump is mentioned in the Epstein files thousands of times. We know there's a dump of 3 million files. His attorney general, Pam Bondi, was fired over her handling of the Epstein files. So either Melania is trying to get ahead of something. Perhaps this is in response to Michael Wolff's case against her where he's suing the first lady using the New York anti slap suit. And that case is on the judge's desk at the moment and they're waiting to hear any day whether or not the case can go ahead. So it's a mystery. And she's also very clearly, as she did in her Melania documentary, indicating without getting divorced, that she is separate to her husband. So her husband appears many, many times in the Epstein files. She's calling for the oversight committee to start talking to the victims. And she's saying that she was nothing to do with it. It's also odd that she came over in at the time that the modeling world was sort of peak modeling world. The agencies were essentially run by a guy, a really nasty guy called Gerald Marie. Then there was Jean Luc Brunel who ended up committing in a French jail accused of underage rape. Trump, Trump had a modeling agency and Paolo Zampoli, the man who says that he introduced Donald and Melania. So for Melania to say she didn't know Jeffrey Epstein when she came from Eastern Europe, which was where Jeffrey Epstein literally was collecting girls and bringing them to the US Is really odd. I mean, it's just odd.
- [42:03]
David Rothkopf
Well, it's more than odd. And you talk about this on your other show, but you know, Melania was involved in a lot of really sleazy business. You know, it's kind of horrible and yet there's some deal afoot. I don't get it. You know, you're like a media big wig, so maybe you get it.
- [42:24]
Joanna Coles
But there's a media small wig. I'm a very small wig. I painter.
- [42:27]
David Rothkopf
Well, but you know the words, why isn't this a story? Why haven't people figured out how she got her visa? Why don't people write about this part of her past? Why don't it seems salacious enough to get a lot of clicks. There seems to be an agreement someplace. Or are they all just afraid of getting sued?
- [42:50]
Joanna Coles
Well, it's a very good question. I think people have covered it actually. And I think, I mean, perhaps not enough. But one of the things I'm curious about is in theory, this is an incredible immigrant story. This young girl arrives from Slovenia and then ends up as the first lady of the United States. It should be an incredible, the ultimate immigrant story. You can come here, you can marry the president of the United States. What an extraordinary journey. And instead it's shrouded in mystery, especially her first 10 years here and her own documentary about herself where she would have the opportunity to either create this myth or at least lean into the myth which is the ultimate American dream, the American story. She just spends on the 20 days in the run up to the inauguration where she's just surrounded by people, she's paying her stylist, her fashion person, her event planner. I mean, there's no sense of a narrative of her life in there whatsoever.
- [43:58]
David Rothkopf
Well, that's because I think the story of Donald and Melania is not the American dream that you've just described. It's kind of the anti American dream. It's the story of a guy who broke the law, who operated on the edges of society, who alienated people, who hung out with gangsters, who was involved in sex trafficking, who was a serial sex abuser, and a woman who was part of that world and sort of played it to suit her own purposes, end up achieving unimaginable success. Despite the fact that everything we think about the United States being a moral country, being a country of laws, being a country where the best get ahead, a meritocracy would suggest that these are the people least likely to succeed. And it confirms what a lot of people think, that the way you get ahead in the U.S. is you break the rules, you play dirty, and then when you have enough money, you can cover up the bad parts and you can make yourself look like you are good. Now, this is an old story. It's happened throughout all of human history, but it's happening right now in front of our eyes. And it doesn't just, you know, it's not just a political story. It reveals grotesque dysfunction in the United States of America right now. That this is what we lift up, this thing that we should be putting down, putting aside, putting into jail, condemning is what we are exalting and empowering.
- [45:46]
Joanna Coles
So another politician who's got himself into trouble was the California frontrunner, Eric Swalwell, who was running for California governor. And then at least four, if not five women have come out and said they were sexually abused by him. One woman says that she was raped by him not once, but twice. Very, very quickly, unusually quickly. Nancy Pelosi, Adam Schiff, the senior Democrats around him, came out and said, that's it, you're done. The campaign is over. He had some flailing around and said, the only apology I owe is to my wife. Then he apologized and now he's pulled out of the race. What are your thoughts?
- [46:33]
David Rothkopf
It's a very disturbing story, but it dovetails with what we were just talking about, because it reveals some real problems both on, you know, that exist on the Democratic side of the ledger as well as the Republican side. Everybody says that what Swalwell was doing was well known, that it was an open secret. I think that's why a lot of those people spoke out so quickly. But why didn't they speak out before? Why didn't the fact that he was behaving this way be an impediment to him getting to where he was? Because he was about to become the governor of California. He was going to win the primaries and become the governor of a state that is the fourth or fifth largest economy in the world. And Democratic leadership who knew about his past apparently let it get that far and worse or equally bad. He thought that this was something he could get away with. And this goes relates to the Trump story. If you have enough power, you think you can erase the blemishes, you think you have impunity, that you can behave however you want. And obviously this guy had the arrogance to think that that was the case. And I've met Eric Swalwell a few times. I've had meals with him. I've talked to him. I certainly didn't know him well, but I knew him and he was sort of bright eyed and ambitious. I have podcasts. He appeared on the podcast. He was very tough on Trump. He seemed like he had a real future in politics. I didn't know anything about this other side of him. But it's deeply disturbing to then discover that this kind of thing exists in the Democratic Party. It actually exists across our society. Men, powerful men, still can get away with what they want. I think one of the worst parts of the story is that these women didn't feel secure in their jobs. They didn't feel safe enough to call out what was happening as it was happening. And there weren't mechanisms to stop it from happening again. These things need to be fixed first in the Democratic Party because the Republicans are elevating serial sex abusers and people credibly accused of rape. And so clearly they're not going to do anything about it. They elected the guy who said, I can grab him by the pussy right
- [49:19]
Joanna Coles
doesn't seem to be disqualifying for a Republican.
- [49:21]
David Rothkopf
Right. And so if there is going to be any hope that we are going to sort of restore any decency to America, it's got to come from the other party. There are only two. There will not be a third one, not for a long time anyway, given the rules of American politics. And the Democrats haven't been doing what they should be doing on this. And this reveals that we also have another situation where there are like four members of Congress right now, two Democrats, two Republicans who are guilty of stuff that should get them kicked out of the Congress. And there's even bipartisan talk about kicking them all out of the Congress, which would be more people getting kicked out than have been kicked out since Reconstruction. And so I just think you look at Trump and he's a lunatic and he's a terrible president. He's doing terrible things, and he's a tool of the oligarchs and all the stuff we normally talk about. But I also think we need to talk about that he is a symptom of a country that is broken right now. And if we are going to recover, it's not just going to take an election victory of somebody with a different name. It's going to take a commitment to make values, make following the law, to make merit important again in the way that they used to be. And we're a long way from that right now.
- [50:59]
Joanna Coles
You said you'd had Eric Swalwell on your podcast. And I had tea with him about a month ago at a friend's house, and she was having a sort of, you know, she was having an introductory tea for him with various people in New York. And it was a really small group. There were about 12 of us, and we sat around talking. And I only made one note from it, and it was sort of an off the record thing, but my only note was concerned for his own safety. And he spent a lot of the time that we were together, and it was probably an hour, an hour and a half, talking about his own safety and how dangerous it was for congresspeople now and how they were targets and how his wife was frightened by it and how congresspeople, for the most part, could not afford security. And I was thinking about it through the lens actually of Jasmine Crockett, who said that now when she goes out, she has to wear a bulletproof vest. And obviously, you know, it's smart to be wise about what feels like increasing levels of political violence. But I couldn't help thinking when I went back and reflected on the conversation, that actually, in some weird way, by focusing on his need for security, he understood that he was in a dangerous position and that actually his enemy was himself. And I wrote a column about it for Substat, which got quite a sort of quite a good response. But just that sense that I think in that meeting, even a month ago, he knew that the walls were closing in. And the next day he was on cnn and we had an exchange back and forth because I wanted him to come on the podcast. He seemed a lively, lively congressperson. He was clearly the frontrunner for what's such an important job. And as you say, it's the fifth, fourth or fifth largest economy in the world. And yet it just all slipped away from him. And he has no one to blame but himself. No one to blame but himself. What a waste. What a waste.
- [53:13]
David Rothkopf
It is a waste. And, you know, I think when he was speaking about these safety issues, I think his dad was a cop, I think his brother was a cop. He was a prosecutor. He was very involved in law enforcement. He was very involved in common sense gun reforms. And a lot of his political positions were good positions. But holding a good position does not absolve one of the responsibility to be a good person.
- [53:44]
Joanna Coles
Well, and it's not a good position to have a former staffer say that she told you to get off repeatedly, to get off and he wouldn't, or
- [53:51]
David Rothkopf
to take advantage of somebody who's clearly drunk or any of the other things that he did. But again, this goes back to this thing that we've talked about several times here, which is in our very stratified society, people at the upper echelon, because of power or money, feel that they have impunity. They feel they can cheat, that they can steal, and they can operate by different rules, that the rules that apply to little people don't apply to them. Look at Elon and all his wives and his kind of breeding ranch. Look at the accusations against people like him of corrupt behavior. I mean, last week, Trump, Trump tweeted out promotion for Palantir stock in the middle of a day. And we're just like, yeah, okay, they can get away with all of this stuff. We're living at a moment where the rich and powerful are in a separate country, kind of uber United States of America, where they are having their way with us and we are paying the consequences. And I really think that this is what 2026 election, 2028 election is going to have to be about. It's going to have to be about whether we can end the sense of impunity of what a very promising politician, Jon Ossoff, running again for senator in Georgia, has referred to as the Epstein collapse. The Epstein class in America is the problem. It is what drives inequality. It is what drives this sense of impunity. It is what puts people who are in need down, keeps them from getting the services they need. It is what draws us in closer to the Orban and Putin and oligarchic governments around the world. This period, this ascendancy, like the robber baron period in the late 19th century, has got to come to a close. Or the idea of the United States as a land of real opportunity, as a land where all of us have a chance, is over. And those are the stakes in this coming election and in the next one. And each of the things we've talked about today illustrates it's just how high the stakes are.
- [56:25]
Joanna Coles
David Rothkopf, you had one job today. You had one job which was to help me with my mental health. And now I am plunged into gloom again. I am plunged, David. Insufficient, disappointing, disappointing.
- [56:40]
David Rothkopf
It may be that a bit of despair is a sign of mental health these days.
- [56:45]
Joanna Coles
A bit of despair is a sign of mental health, maybe. And maybe it will galvanize us to stay alert to quite what's going on.
- [56:56]
David Rothkopf
Look, let's just go back. Orban lost. You can defeat these people. Anne Applebaum, great journalist about this stuff, has an article in the Atlantic now that says illiberalism is not inevitable. We have a glimmer of hope here. Netanyahu can lose. The Republicans in Congress can lose. Trump, as we have talked about week in and week out, is getting defeated day in and day out in court battle after court battle in terms of pushback from the international community. There is hope. So don't despair. Don't just focus on the negative, Joanna. Feel better.
- [57:37]
Joanna Coles
Accentuate the positive. And also, as we were just beginning to record, a court had thrown out Donald Trump's case against the Wall Street Journal, which is also a sign of hope. It's a sign of hope, David. All right. In that last two minutes, you've taken me from the floor to, I'm back out dancing again. We will stay vigilant at the Daily Beast, which is why we hope you will subscribe to us and you will join us again next Monday for more conversations with the Daily Beast's global affairs columnist, David Rothkopf. David, go about your day and have fun and think about converting into Catholicism.
- [58:20]
David Rothkopf
Yes, boss. Yes, I'll convert. I have to have my bar mitzvah negated.
- [58:26]
Joanna Coles
Revoked. I think you have it annulled. Can't the Catholic Church deal with that? Well, just annul everything.
- [58:31]
David Rothkopf
I'm married to a Catholic woman. Does that count?
- [58:34]
Joanna Coles
I think it does count. I think it does count. And didn't RFK Jr get one of his marriages annulled? That was a different pope, though. This is a new Pope, it's a new Catholic church.
- [58:47]
David Rothkopf
For all we know, RFK Jr actually ate one of his ex wives. We just, I mean, the things we don't know about RFK Jr are scarier than what we do know.
- [59:00]
Joanna Coles
And I think we're about to learn more about RFK Jr because there's a tell all book coming out about him this week. Isabel Vincent from the New York Post. I believe I'm talking to her tomorrow. And I'm very curious to find out.
- [59:12]
David Rothkopf
I know you got it. You got it. Because this is another one of those cases like Trump is from the bottom of society in the worst possible ways and manages to make his way. Here's a guy who was a heroin addict with a brain worm who has been a crackpot for decades and somehow he ended up in the cabinet. So that's kind of special.
- [59:34]
Joanna Coles
And of course, he's launching his own podcast, so I wonder if he will interview himself about the book that's coming out.
- [59:44]
David Rothkopf
By the way, as a last thing, you made a reference to Essidal. The better Melania impression and the better Melania skit this weekend were on SNL uk.
- [59:55]
Joanna Coles
Agree, agree. It was definitely. It was a very good one. She emerges out of a hedgerow and it's very funny. Very funny. And also it's so good. There's a very good observation about why, just to set the stage for people, it's. It's three people having a barbecue in a rather grim British backyard and someone says, why are we having a barbecue? And the guy says, because the sun was out four days ago. Which is exactly why you would have a barbecue in the uk because someone spotted the sun once.
- [60:24]
David Rothkopf
Yeah. That, by the way, is British optimism, Joanna. That is the kind of thing that should buoy you as you face the week.
- [60:32]
Joanna Coles
I carry it with me. I carry it with me at all times, David, that the sun was out four days ago and we should have a barbecue.
- [60:39]
David Rothkopf
Exactly. The sun was out four days ago, everybody. It's spring.
- [60:43]
Joanna Coles
It's spring. So highly recommend your columns in the Daily Beast. The 2, 1 on Friday and one over the weekend. And of course, there'll be more columns coming this week, I hope, David. And we will see each other next Monday for more Mental Health. More Mental Health with David Roscoff.
- [61:03]
David Rothkopf
All right, see you then.
- [61:04]
Joanna Coles
See you then. Bye. I have so many favorite parts of that conversation. The theories about Melania, JD Vance's worst week ever, and Trump as historically the world's biggest idiot, that he is a mark that bibi Netanyahu has pleaded with the president of the United States as long as he's been in politics for them to join him in a war in Iran, and they have always said no. And here he has found what David Rothkopf calls his mark, his useful idiot, to follow the Israelis into a war with Iran. And who knows where it ends up, but certainly not in peace talks with JD Vance at the helm, at least not this week. So let me know what your favorite part of the conversation was or what you think is going to happen with this Trump government and Iran, or this Trump government and frankly, anything. So the good news is we have so many Beast tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team. Devon Rogerino, Ryan Murray, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, Neil Rosenhaus.