Prison Helping Massive Ghislaine Coverup for Trump

Summary

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The Daily Beast Podcast

Prison Helping Massive Ghislaine Coverup for Trump

Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Sam Mengele (former white-collar inmate, prison consultant)
Date: October 20, 2025

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Overview

This riveting episode of The Daily Beast Podcast, hosted by Joanna Coles, digs into the highly unusual incarceration circumstances of Ghislaine Maxwell—convicted sex trafficker and Jeffrey Epstein’s former partner—now serving time in the comparatively cushy Bryan federal prison camp in Texas. With the upcoming publication of Virginia Giuffre’s memoir and rampant speculation about possible political interference—particularly regarding Donald Trump—Coles and guest Sam Mengele examine the culture at Bryan, the reality of Maxwell’s daily life, and what her preferential treatment might suggest about a broader coverup.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Maxwell's Unprecedented Prison Placement [04:41–07:17]

• Unusual Camp Designation:
  • Sam Mengele explains that federal prison “camps” are reserved for nonviolent offenders, and inmates must have less than 10 years left on their sentence to qualify.
  • Maxwell, sentenced to 20 years for sex trafficking minors, should be automatically disqualified due to two public safety factors: length of sentence and sex crime conviction.
  • Public Safety Factors:
    • Sex crime convictions are considered nearly impossible to waive for minimum security.
    • Mengele says, “I have never... seen waived, which is a conviction for a sex crime… getting her transferred to a camp, it’s crazy, right?” [05:54]
• Political Influence Suspected:
  • Prison officials reportedly say the directive for Maxwell’s transfer came from "well above their heads."

2. Atmosphere at Bryan Prison Camp [08:36–12:12]

• Trophy/Celebrity Inmate:
  • Maxwell’s arrival brought an atmosphere of anxiety and tension; inmates and staff were warned not to speak about or interact with her.
  • One inmate who spoke about Maxwell was immediately moved to a maximum security facility:
    • “As soon as this other inmate made the statement, she was whisked off that night…” [10:10]
• Special Treatment & Isolation:
  • Staff and inmates are “walking on eggshells” around Maxwell.
  • Sam: “They feel that she is being treated more like a guest in a hotel than an inmate in a federal prison.” [11:19]

3. Security, Danger, and Life Inside Bryan [12:56–17:52]

• Camp Environment:
  • Only nonviolent offenders, no gangs or violence.
  • Open running tracks, a variety of job programs (e.g., nursing, library, dog training, cosmetology).
  • “A camp is community custody… the gates are open, they become a fugitive, but they can leave.” [13:37]
• Lockdown for Her Visitor:
  • Maxwell had a special visitor; the entire camp was put on maximum lockdown (even kitchen staff confined):
    • “Not only was it put on lockdown, it was put on maximum lockdown.” [14:33]
  • Visitor entered through the back of the chapel, identity unseen.
  • Sam speculates only a “very, very high up in the government” official would get such treatment.
• Speculation on Government Involvement:
  • Joanna suggests DOJ’s Todd Blanche (Trump’s former lawyer) may have been involved. [16:27]

4. Daily Reality for Maxwell and Others [17:08–19:37]

• Typical Day:
  • Lights on at 6 AM, breakfast, jobs or activities, minimal lockdown except for official census count.
  • “There just isn’t enough to do. She can take classes…” [18:54]
• Denied Privileges:
  • Denied participation in both the puppy program and nursing program.

5. Social Dynamics: Trauma, Resentment, and Distance [23:53–25:40]

• Victimization in the Population:
  • Many fellow inmates are abuse victims or have daughters the same age as Maxwell’s victims.
  • “Imagine you’re in [this] pressure cooker environment and you see another inmate that’s getting special treatment... So there is a lot of frustration amongst the inmates…” [23:53]
• Ostracism and No Jailhouse Lawyering:
  • Most inmates (particularly those with intelligence or resources) keep their distance; little appetite to use Maxwell as a “jailhouse lawyer.” [25:40]

6. Day-to-Day: Food, Programs, and Trades [27:11–28:28]

• Standard BOP Meal System:
  • All inmates eat the same food on a fixed schedule, with minor accommodations for dietary restrictions.
  • “[The] menu... does not vary… Some of the most creative cooks... make things to sell, you know, while there.” [27:17]
• Martha Stewart Anecdote:
  • Joanna recalls Stewart foraging for edible weeds to supplement meals. [28:28]

7. Staff Tensions and Extraordinary Precautions [29:06–32:41]

• Staff Reluctance:
  • No one wants to be responsible for Maxwell’s safety or face fallout if she’s harmed.
  • Enhanced surveillance, private showers and meals, CERT (Special Emergency Response Team) on-site:
    • “…not only do they have an exponentially higher number of guards… but they also have what’s called a CERT team…” [31:28]
• Gunfire Incident:
  • A week after her arrival, shots were fired outside the prison, causing further concern.

8. Epstein Death and Maxwell’s Future [32:41–39:45]

• Epstein’s Fate:
  • Sam: “I do not believe that he was murdered… based upon what he was facing and knowing what the rest of his life would look like, he probably did commit suicide.” [32:59]
• Was Maxwell’s Transfer for Her Safety or Political Cover?
  • Sam theorizes the only way to keep her safe from violent inmates (and potentially dangerous allies) was the camp transfer.
  • “I have to imagine that getting her to Bryan was the starting point to getting her out of custody, whether through commutation or pardon.” [39:01]
• Victims' and Inmates’ Anger at Possible Clemency:
  • “There’s going to be quite a bit of animosity and anger…” [39:45]
  • “If my daughter… was the victim… I can’t tell you how angry I would be that the culprit is walking free.” [39:45]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

On Maxwell’s Unique Prison Status:

• “[A] conviction for a sex crime… specifically precludes an individual from serving their time in a camp… So getting her transferred to a camp, it’s crazy, right?”
  — Sam Mengele [05:54]

On ‘Walking on Ice’ Culture Inside Bryan:

• “The sentiment is one of walking on ice. They’re afraid, as the staff is afraid… they know that in order for her to have gotten there, the strings at the highest possible level had to have been pulled.”
  — Sam Mengele [10:55]

On Exclusive Treatment:

• “The inmates feel that she is being treated more like a guest in a hotel than an inmate in a federal prison.”
  — Sam Mengele [11:19]

On Systemic Resentment:

• “Imagine you’re in this… pressure cooker environment and you see another inmate that’s getting special treatment… convicted of a charge of something that you were the victim of. So there is a lot of frustration amongst the inmates, and rightly so…”
  — Sam Mengele [23:53]

On Possible Political Motives:

• “I have to imagine that getting her to Bryan was the starting point to getting her out of custody, whether through commutation or pardon.”
  — Sam Mengele [39:01]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Maxwell’s Transfer and Security Factors – [04:41–07:17][05:54 (waiver quote)]
• Maxwell’s Reception Among Inmates – [08:36–12:12][10:10 (inmate moved for talking)]
• Special Treatment / Facility Lockdown – [14:33–16:27]
• Life in the Camp and Social Tension – [17:08–19:37][23:53–25:40]
• Food & Daily Routines – [27:11–28:28]
• Staff Anxiety & Precautions – [29:06–32:41][31:28 (CERT team quote)]
• Epstein Death, Clemency Speculation, Victims’ Reaction – [32:41–39:45][39:01 (deal quote), 39:45 (victim’s anger quote)]

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Conclusion

Joanna Coles and Sam Mengele provide a behind-the-scenes look at Ghislaine Maxwell’s extraordinary treatment inside Bryan prison camp, raising pressing questions about whether her case is being managed to protect powerful interests. The surrounding secrecy, special accommodations, and speculation about a future pardon all point toward the possibility of a “massive coverup”—one with consequences for justice, for victims, and for the public’s trust in institutions. As legislation and public pressure mount for the release of the full Epstein files, the question remains: What does Maxwell know, and why is she being shielded?

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Transcript

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[Sam Mengele]

The other inmates either have daughters. Many of them have daughters that are of the same age as the daughters that Ms. Maxwell was convicted of abusing. Also, and this is a little bit more serious, many of the women in that facility were abused themselves, had abusive relationships, but were the victims of sexual abuse. So again, imagine you're in this, what could be a pressure cooker environment and you see another inmate that's getting this special treatment that is convicted of a charge of something that you were the victim of. So there is a lot of frustration amongst the inmates, and rightly so, because of that.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast and we have a riveting conversation today for you about what it's like being in prison alongside Ghislaine Maxwell. And it's particularly timely to talk about this now because not only has Ghislaine Maxwell, who you will remember was sentenced to 20 years for sex trafficking after being Jeffrey Epstein's partner in literal crime, it's particularly timely because next week is the publication of Virginia Giuffre's memoir, Nobody's Girl, which is her memoir of surviving abuse and what really led to a tragic life and resulted in her committing suicide. Earlier this year, Sam Mengele ended up serving time in jail himself as a white collar criminal. He was involved in an insurance fraud, but he left jail and set up a consultancy and his clients have included Steve Bannon, Peter Navarro, and various other high profile white collar inmates. Now, of course, Ghislaine Maxwell is not a white collar inmate. She was found guilty of sex trafficking, but she's now in a prison camp alongside Elizabeth Holmes from Theranos, a real housewife and several white collar criminals. So we got into it in detail about what their daily life is like and how she's become this celebrity inmate, this trophy inmate that everybody else in the prison is trying to avoid in case they get caught up in her poisonous wake. So, Sam, let's get into it. Can you start by explaining to us how unusual it is for someone who's been sentenced like Ghislaine Maxwell to 20 years for sex trafficking is in a. Essentially a Camp Bryan prison in Texas?

[Sam Mengele]

Sure. So in the Bureau of Prisons, there's something called a public safety factor. When someone is sentenced, or actually before they're sentenced, they do a pre sentence report. And in that report, it lists their criminal history, if there's any violence, drug use, and specifically their charge based upon a public safety factor they are designated. So there's a central office for the Bureau of Prisons in Grand Prairie, Texas that takes every single incoming inmate and everyone that's currently in custody and determines where they should serve their time. There are times when people can be moved from one level of security to another. In the case of Ms. Maxwell, she had two public safety factors on her. One was the easy one to play with, which is the length of time remaining in her sentence. She had a 20 year sentence. In order to qualify for a camp or a minimum security facility, you have to have 10 years or less remaining on your sentence.

[Joanna Coles]

Wow.

[Sam Mengele]

I've had clients with 11 years, 12 years. Sometimes you can get that waived. And that is typically the easiest of the public safety factors to waive, on the opposite end of the spectrum is the hardest public safety factor to waive. And until now, I've never seen waived, which is a conviction for a sex crime, any type of sexual pornography, anything involving a sexual act is the most serious or one of the most serious public safety factors someone can have on them. And that specifically precludes an individual from serving their time in a camp. But one step further, once their sentence is over, they are also limited as far as the amount of halfway house time they can have or community time. So it's a very severe restriction. I have never, and I've helped thousands of people and we've had a few people with violations of the Mann act, something like Combs has. They will not waive that public safety factor. So, so getting her transferred to a camp, it's crazy, right?

[Joanna Coles]

This, this really is crazy. And also, not only did she have a 20 year sentence, but it was for sex trafficking, children, girls.

[Sam Mengele]

Which lends itself to a whole different dilemma of where she is and how the other inmates feel about serving time with her, how the inmates, families feel like serving time with her. But right now, specifically, and I give tremendous kudos to Josh Smith and Bill Marshall, who run the Bureau of Prisons. I think they've come in, really tried to clean everything up, get things moving in the proper direction. So it's my understanding that the directive to move her to a minimum security camp, Brian, came from well above their heads.

[Joanna Coles]

It's the most fascinating story. And of course, the juxtaposition of Virginia Giuffre, one of Epstein's victims who killed herself earlier this year, and the publication of her memoir that she'd spent the last sort of 18 months working on is fascinating. But first, Sam, you have clients in Bryan Prison alongside Ghislaine Maxwell. Now, I know that all the prisoners have been told they cannot talk about her, but I know you've talked to some of their relatives. What are you hearing from people in the same jail as Ghislaine Maxwell about how things have changed since she's come in as basically a trophy prisoner?

[Sam Mengele]

I've helped many high clothes, high profile people. I served time in Miami with Peter Madoff, Bernie's brother. And the sentiment that I.

[Joanna Coles]

That's a whole new episode on its own. I am dying to talk to you about that, but let's stay focused on Maxwell and then promise me we'll come back and let's talk about the Madoffs.

[Sam Mengele]

Absolutely. So there's two general sentiments amongst the inmates that are there in many instances when you have a high profile individual that enters the facility, there's a lot of fascination. I've had, you know, two people that are currently in the President's inner circle that serve time, and there's a lot of fascination.

[Joanna Coles]

Steve Bannon and Peter Navarro.

[Sam Mengele]

Correct, Correct. And when they go into a prison or anybody of that type of stature or fame, inmates tend to be very curious. They want to almost live vicariously through them. And many of the staff tend to be very deferential to them because they understand who they are and who their friends might be. In this case with Ms. Maxwell, it is completely different. They were warned, the inmates and the staff were warned prior to her coming in that under no circumstances are they to disclose anything that happens with her or to her or surrounding her during her time at Bryan. In one case, there was one inmate that told somebody, a journalist, something about her. And this young lady was a friend of one of my clients, and she had a very short sentence. Keeping in mind, prison phones and email are subject to being monitored. So you know for sure they have an AI system that is just looking for the name Maxwell. And as soon as this other inmate made the statement, she was whisked off that night to Houston Federal Detention center, which is a maximum security facility. So, wow. The sentiment is one of walking on ice. They're afraid, as the staff is afraid to do anything wrong because they know that in order for her to have gotten there, the strings at the highest possible level had to have been pulled. And they see and we can talk about some of the things that they're experiencing while she's there, from her visits to how her meals are being handled. And they're truly walking on eggshells. The other sentiment, which I find fascinating is they, the inmates feel that she is being treated more like a guest in a hotel than an inmate in a federal prison.

[Joanna Coles]

So she's been treated as a sort of celebrity prisoner. Basically, she's getting special treatment. Everybody else is feeling nervous. One person who let something slip has already been moved to a harsher jail. So this is not someone you want to mess with.

[Sam Mengele]

This is, at least for my clients, they're steering clear of her. They want to stay as far away from her, and they're actually afraid to socialize with her. Because you never know, especially in a prison environment, what could happen not just between the inmate and Ms. Maxwell, but between the inmate that's socializing with her and other inmates. It's guilt by association, and there's tremendous fear and Anxiety.

[Joanna Coles]

So I know this is a much lower security prison and we think of it as a camp. Does that mean it's much less violent? Are there violent prisoners there? Because, of course, one's mindful of what happened to Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, nobody knows did he commit suicide or was he actually murdered in jail? But the truth is, as anybody will tell you, and you know from your own experience, jails are full of people who are violent and frequently mentally ill. So is it. Is she. I understand it's lower security, but are there still violent prisoners in Bryan?

[Sam Mengele]

No. In order to qualify for a minimum security camp, you can't have any prior history of violence or a violent. A charge of violence. If you commit violence, get into a fight while you're at the camp, you are immediately removed and sent to a higher level security, a low like Tallahassee, where she had just come from. Okay, so there's, you know, there might be, we'll say gangs, but groups of women that segregate and stick together. But there are no gangs, There is no violence. You don't see any sexual activities that are going on in camps. It tends. A camp is community custody. As an example, if an inmate wants to leave, they can leave very rarely. I mean, the gates are open, they become a fugitive, but they can leave. There are programs that. A nursing program at that camp that is offered to inmates to get an associate degree in nursing.

[Joanna Coles]

Can you imagine? Can you imagine being a patient and waking up to discover that the nurse peering over your bed at you is Ghislaine Maxwell. You would really think you had lost it. You mentioned a visit that someone had talked to you about, and that was referred to in an excellent piece in the Wall Street Journal about conditions at Bryan since Ghislaine Maxwell was checked in there. Do we have any sense of who. Who this visitor was? Because the entire prison was apparently put on lockdown while Ghislaine Maxwell had a special visit from someone. Do we know who it was?

[Sam Mengele]

Not only was it put on lockdown, it was put on maximum lockdown.

[Joanna Coles]

In other words, so explain the difference. What is the difference?

[Sam Mengele]

So in a traditional lockdown, they still let people that have jobs, kitchen staff, food services, certain orderly positions, people that have certain jobs, they allow them out of the unit to continue doing those jobs. The lockdown is typically the inmates that are not working are confined to the dormitories. In this situation, everyone was locked down. The kitchen staff was closed. Everything was closed. It's my understanding that they brought her out to the chapel. And the only thing that one of my clients was able to see was that she went into the chapel, but whoever was visiting her came in through the back of the chapel, so you couldn't even see the type of cars they drove in on.

[Joanna Coles]

So was there any speculation inside this prison camp as to who the visitor was?

[Sam Mengele]

Purely speculation, and I have no way of confirming this. But in order to get a visit like that, it had to be somebody very, very high up in the government, possibly also with some kind of security protection. And keep in mind, I've had clients that have had very high ranking government officials and family of government officials visit them in prison, and we had to make special accommodations for those visitors. But they still came in during regular visiting hours? Yes, they were given a separate room off the visiting room, but accommodations were made so it didn't lock up the whole facility. In this instance, which again I've never heard of before, everything was locked down and her visitors came into a back entrance so that no one could see who they were and how they came in.

[Joanna Coles]

I wonder if it was perhaps the number two in the Justice Department, Todd Blanche, formerly Donald Trump's personal lawyer, one of his army of personal lawyers who was checking in as a sort of maitre d, having organized her transfer of prisoners. Perhaps he was checking in to check. She liked the room service. Can you tell us a little bit about what life is like in the prison camp there? You mentioned that you could train to be a nurse, but I gather there is a sort of in house beauty salon that prisoners can go to and is run by other prisoners. What's the food like? Give us a sense of daily life there.

[Sam Mengele]

Lights go on during the week. At six in the morning, you're expected to get up. If you want to go to breakfast, go to breakfast. If you have a morning job, you go to your job, you make your bed, you clean your area. There are no cells, there are no guard towers. There are typically little pods that have a bunk bed in them. If you have no job, you're allowed outside the running track, television, board games, whatever you might do. I think there's pickleball there, there's all sorts of activities from 6 in the morning until 9 o' clock at night, except for what they call count when they do a national census. If you have a job, you're expected to go to your job. And when you finish your job, you come out.

[Joanna Coles]

And what are the sorts of jobs that people do? Is that like working in the prison library, which is always one of those things in Orange. Orange is the new Black.

[Sam Mengele]

So I had a client. Yes. One of the best jobs I can get for a client is what's called a library orderly or a law library orderly, depending upon where they are. It's either. It's either better air conditioned or better heated. And they're in the library. They put books away. But it's a good job. Especially typically for older people. There's a puppy program that the women can train puppies. They live with the puppies and they train to be service dogs. She was denied that program. There is an off premises nursing program. She was denied that program. There are other programs that is cosmetology that you're referencing where women can learn some sort of vocational training so that when they get out. Because remember, if you're in a camp, you're getting out soon, you're at the end of your prison term. So they try to teach women some sort of vocational training. In men's camps they might have commercial truck driving and things like that. So it's a very relaxed atmosphere. One of the biggest problems in a minimum security facility is boredom. There just isn't enough to do. She can take classes. The other interesting thing, and I'm curious to know is she getting first step act credits towards time off with her sentence. You typically can't, but there are all sorts of exceptions being made. So there are classes like parenting, stress management, conflict management that the government offers to inmates to help get time off their sentences.

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[Sam Mengele]

So you can't be a juvenile under 18 and be in a federal adult facility. Typically you have to be over 18. I know when I was in Miami there was one young man that was 19 or 20, so I'm quite Sure, that there are young women in there, certainly women the age of Ms. Maxwell's victims. But there's an interesting sentiment that is happening there. The other inmates either have daughters, many of them have daughters that are of the same age as the daughters that Ms. Maxwell has convinced convicted of abusing also, and this is a little bit more serious, many of the women in that facility were abused themselves, had abusive relationships, but were the victims of sexual abuse. So again, imagine you're in this, what could be a pressure cooker environment and you see another inmate that's getting this special treatment that is convicted of a charge of something that you were the victim of. So there is a lot of frustration amongst the inmates, and rightly so, because of that.

[Joanna Coles]

That's a fascinating point and not one that I'd considered. When you're a well educated criminal like Ghislaine Maxwell is she went to Oxford. Do they often end up taking on the cases of other inmates? I mean, is it possible that she can build up relationships with them by trying to help them, you know, either on appeal or trying to get special treatment or whatever? I mean, is there a sense of an appetite among other prisoners to get her help on something like that? Or are they really just staying away?

[Sam Mengele]

So there are things called jailhouse lawyers. Well, typically your white collar and many times there are lawyers in the prison. There are lawyers who are inmates. Jailhouse lawyers are prolific throughout the system. They find a way to get paid through commissary or other ways, and they can be helpful to other inmates. I tend to doubt she's being asked to do any jailhouse legal work. Would inmates try to use her? I don't know what she has to offer because there are many, many other very intelligent women. One of my clients is a physician. The other was a successful businesswoman. So I don't know why one would go to Ms. Maxwell as opposed to somebody else if they needed help. Now, it's possible that other inmates think that she's going to get some form of clemency and the they think if they get close to her, maybe they'll also follow in her coattails. You never know what someone's thinking. I think it's a bit naive to think that, but, you know, it's a prison and people have a lot of wishful thinking and other inmates have lots of time on their hands to do that thinking. So people come up with all sorts of, you know, plans and things inside. I do believe, though, that the majority, and certainly the more intelligent inmate population there is staying away from Her. Okay, by choice or by force.

[Joanna Coles]

And what about the food in somewhere like Brian? What is the food like?

[Sam Mengele]

BOP has a standard menu. It's offered to every facility, every person throughout the system. To all 150,000 inmates, it is a standard menu. So every Thursday at lunchtime, you get baked chicken. It does not vary. So you get on Monday one week, you get on Monday the next week. If you have. If you're vegetarian or vegan, instead of getting the meat product, you can get soy. If you are kosher or halal, they have kosher and halal meals, but that's it. Now, Miami, we had a salad bar, which was great, and I lived off the salad bar and what you could add to it in commissary. Plus, you find that the other inmates, the men or the women in prison that have been there for a long time tend to become some of the most creative cooks that you can imagine, either using hot water or a microwave. I often tell people I think I had some of the best key lime pie that someone made in the Philadelphia detention center in a microwave using cookies. So there's a lot of creativity. And other inmates do make things to sell, you know, while there.

[Joanna Coles]

I remember Martha Stewart when she was in jail, I think, picking various leaves that were growing through the cracks of the prison yard and turning them into. She said, I think the most nutritious thing she'd managed to eat the whole time that she was there. So talk to us a little bit about the pressure on the staff of having an inmate like Ghislaine Maxwell, because we know how the staff at the Manhattan Correctional Facility where Jeffrey Epstein was held came under scrutiny after he was found unresponsive in his cell.

[Sam Mengele]

No staff member wants to have any potential liability in something happening to her, whether by another inmate or. Or by a simple accident of tripping and falling in the shower. Because the perception of her getting hurt or injured or worse would be devastating not only to the Bureau of Prisons, but they would be transferred to the detention center in Anchorage. There is. There is an overwhelming.

[Joanna Coles]

Is that the worst thing that can happen to you as a prison officer, you're dispatched to Alaska or they can go to Guam.

[Sam Mengele]

There's only two places that they can send.

[Joanna Coles]

Guam would be warm.

[Sam Mengele]

But actually interesting enough, now that they've terminated the union for the federal prison staff, they could potentially be fired. So no staff wants either the responsibility or the concern of her getting hurt again, whether by chance or another inmate, because they know that the people that are watching this are the pinnacle of the government and the risk of her being involved in a fray or hurting herself, you know, it happens. So there is, from what I understand, she takes showers privately now. There are private showers in prison. It's not like you see on Orange is a New Black, where all the women stand under a group shower and stand around a pole. No, there are private showers, There are private bathrooms, but at the same time, it's an open area so women can come and go. It's my understanding she is being segregated. She does take her meals, I'm told, privately. So there are certain things being afforded her that are typically never afforded any other inmate yet alone, high profile inmates.

[Joanna Coles]

I've spoken to friends in London who've talked to her brother Kevin, who has been telling people that she is under an incredibly tight guard and that this is, you know, almost suffocating for her. Do you think she's under 24? 7 watch?

[Sam Mengele]

Minimum security camps are typically very understaffed. As an example, at Miami, there were at the time 400 inmates, and at night there was one guard. It's my understanding that not only do they have an exponentially higher number of guards and correctional officers on premises at all times, but they also have what's called a cert team, SERT team, which is special emergency response team that is on premises as well in case anything happens. If you remember, about a week after she got there, there was gunfire right.

[Joanna Coles]

Off of the campus, right outside of the. Outside of the prison.

[Sam Mengele]

And they were very concerned that that had to do with her being there. It's my understanding, which is purely coincidental, but they are absolutely taking all sorts of additional.

[Joanna Coles]

Precautions.

[Sam Mengele]

There's a whole. Yes, precautions, but there's a different protocol in place now with her. So, yes, it's probably, in fact, it probably definitely is the highest staffed prison camp in the Bureau of Prisons. It might even be the highest staffed prison other than the ADNAX in Florence, Colorado, per capita. Pardon me.

[Joanna Coles]

So, Sam, you've spent time in jail, you've worked with, as you say, hundreds of people who've gone to jail. Knowing what you know and knowing people who knew Jeffrey Epstein, do you believe he committed suicide or do you think he was murdered in jail?

[Sam Mengele]

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, so I know certainly there is a. I was in a Philadelphia detention center for six weeks when I was first sentenced. And I know what a high level security facility is. And it can be terribly depressing. Now, granted, he was facing life in prison, I was not. I was facing five years. But it can be an overwhelming sense of pressure, strain, anxiety, depression. I do not believe that he was murdered. Again, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I believe that based upon what he was facing and knowing what the rest of his life would look like, he probably did commit suicide. To me, that would make sense given his situation. But again, I'm also not a conspiracy theorist. So, you know, I don't believe that our government went to the extent of silencing him. Especially knowing that, you know, Ms. Maxwell is out and has the same information.

[Joanna Coles]

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[Sam Mengele]

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[Joanna Coles]

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[Sam Mengele]

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[Joanna Coles]

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[Sam Mengele]

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[Joanna Coles]

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[Sam Mengele]

Thanks Sadie.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm Mayra Amit, founder of Mochi Health. To find your mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com Sadie is a Mochi member, compensated for her story.

[Sam Mengele]

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[Joanna Coles]

You buy a pair of Bombas socks, that's four socks. Because one purchased is one donated.

[Sam Mengele]

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[Joanna Coles]

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[Sam Mengele]

So when you buy a pair of.

[Joanna Coles]

Super comfortable Bombas socks, you're also don't donating a pair Bombas customers have powered over 150 million donations. So Bombas would like to thank you 150 million times, but we only have like 30 seconds. Go to bombas.com and use code audio.

[Sam Mengele]

For 20% off your first purchase.

[Joanna Coles]

That's B O-M B-S.com and use code audio at checkout. And I'm back with Sam Mengele, a prison consultant, talking about what it's like to be in jail alongside Ghislaine Maxwell. Well, it might not have been the government, right? I mean, as we discussed earlier, prisons are full of violent people who might have just taken against him or who might have been abused themselves.

[Sam Mengele]

I saw someone get stabbed my second morning in Philadelphia and it was scary. There's no question violence does occur at higher level facilities where Ms. Maxwell was prior to going to Bryant Tallahassee. Tallahassee is a low security facility that houses violent individuals, gang members, it houses sexual predators. It houses people that were sentenced to 50 years and finally got down to 20 years. And, you know, their crimes can be very, very overwhelming. And I truly believe that once she started cooperating, the Bureau of Prisons had to move her. I understand why they moved her. And it made sense. She would not have been safe physically in Tallahassee.

[Joanna Coles]

But was the solution to move her to a prison camp, which, as you say, never normally takes people who've been convicted for 20 years for sex trafficking. And as you say, once you go to one of those prison camps, it's usually because you are towards the end of your sentence, not when you've still got 19 years to run.

[Sam Mengele]

It was the only solution for the Bureau of Prisons. If they wanted, if the goal was to keep her safe and alive. If they moved her to another low security, they would have had the same challenges.

[Joanna Coles]

So part of this is just to keep her out of the presence of violent criminals.

[Sam Mengele]

If they want to keep her safe and alive. Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

So she just has to avoid Elizabeth Holmes, who I gather is also a prisoner in Bryan with her machine to test blood.

[Sam Mengele]

She is a prisoner. She is an inmate there. Jen Shaw from Real Housewives. Again, I have, I've had over the past few years a number of clients that were inmates there. All professional, white collar, you know, doctors, lawyers, accountants, that I prefer sending my clients there that qualify for the programs that they offer. I think it's one of the best female camps in the country right now. I would be a bit remiss to send my clients there.

[Joanna Coles]

That's interesting. And if you were a betting man, would you. Do you think she's Going to stay there long or do you think there's already been as many people suspect a deal and that in a few months she'll be quietly released?

[Sam Mengele]

If again, purely speculation, I have no way of knowing for a fact. I have to imagine that getting her to Bryant was the starting point to getting her out of custody, whether through commutation or pardon. It just seems to me that you don't move someone to that type of facility with this kind of protection and precautions if you're not overly concerned about her, her safety and what she has to say and offer. So my guess, and purely speculation is that at some point she will receive some form of clemency.

[Joanna Coles]

And where do you think that leaves the victims of Ghislaine Maxwell and, and.

[Sam Mengele]

Jeffrey Epstein really upset? Not just the victims, the other inmates, anybody in the Bureau of Prisons that serving time for, you know, any charge yet alone, a nonviolent charge that are there and they see that she's going to get clemency. We help people with clemency all the time. We're very active in that space. But we would never accept a case when it comes to sexual act or charges at all. I think there's going to be quite a bit of animosity and anger if you're a victim, a victim's family. I know if my daughter, I have a 30 year old daughter, if she was the victim, God forbid, I can't tell you how angry I would be that the culprit is walking free.

[Joanna Coles]

Sam Mengele, thank you very much for giving us your perspective on what on earth is going on there at Bryan Prison in Texas where Ghislaine Maxwell was moved from a higher security jail in Tallahassee after her two day long interview with Todd Blanche, the number two at the doj. A really remarkable story. Thank you so much. And promise us you will come back and talk to us about your own experiences in jail. And also Peter Madoff, what it was like having him as a, as a fellow inmate.

[Sam Mengele]

I would love to, Joanna, thank you.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, thank you very much. And we'll come back to you if this story develops.

[Sam Mengele]

Great, thank you.

[Joanna Coles]

It's highly unusual, almost unheard of for a prisoner with a sentence of 20 years for sex trafficking to be in a minimum security camp as Ghislaine Maxwell is in Texas. And there's definitely a lot of feeling among certain people, including our regular colleague Michael Wolff, that a deal has already been struck. And you heard from Sam just now that this is often a place where people go to get ready to segue back into the world and to be a free person again. It seems unlikely the Epstein victims would allow that to happen. And of course, we're still waiting for Mike Johnson to swear in Adelita Grievous from Arizona so that Tom Massie and Ro Khanna, who we had on the podcast two weeks ago, can get their vote to demand the release of the Epstein files. But as Michael Wolff keeps saying, it all comes back to Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. What else does Ghislaine Maxwell know and why? Why is she being given such preferential treatment? If you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast and to our podcast. Wherever you get your podcast, you can join the Daily beast community on YouTube and we appreciate your support. We're independent media. We love your support. We need your support. If you haven't been this week, don't forget as our first lady would have you be Beast. And a shout out to our top tier Bee Beast members Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hodel, and Free dc. And thank you to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Erssen and our editor Jesse Millwood. Hey, it's Maya and Sim from the Girls that Invest podcast. If you are an IT or security pro, you know managing devices, identities and applications can feel overwhelming and honestly, risky. That's where Trelica by1Password comes in. It helps conquer SaaS sprawl and shadow it by discovering every app your team uses, managed or not. With pre built app profiles, you can assess, risk, manage access and even optimize your software spend. Plus it simplifies onboarding, offboarding and compliance, all while cutting costs by eliminating unused licenses. Take the first step to better security for your team. Learn more at 1Password.com special offer Parlo.

[Sam Mengele]

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[Joanna Coles]

Here's a show that we recommend.

[Sam Mengele]

Hi, it's Jamie Morton from comedy podcast My Dad Wrote a Corner we're celebrating 10 years of our show this month by releasing remastered versions of our very first season.

[Joanna Coles]

They were recorded around the kitchen table, so they need a little fluffing if.

[Sam Mengele]

You'Ve never heard of us before. My dad basically wrote the world's worst erotic novel and I read it chapter by chapter with my best mates and it's hilarious. So with a beautifully remastered season one, it's never been a better time to listen to Blinda and her escapades. From the very beginning, you can listen to My Dad Wrote a Porno wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[Joanna Coles]

Acast.com.

[Sam Mengele]

Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily Beast [e-mail] podcasts if you enjoyed this.

[Joanna Coles]

Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast.com membership podcast and sign up today.