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- [00:00]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [02:31]
Mary Trump
He is constantly trying to fill a void that cannot be filled. And the reason is actually pretty simple. My grandfather and my grandmother rendered Donald unlovable. The only thing, the thing he most desperately wants in his life is to be loved. He never has been sufficiently, he never will be. So everything else, the money, the power, putting his name on everything, that is all in service to filling a black hole that is unfillable.
- [03:08]
Joanna Coles
I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. And imagine spending your family holidays with Donald Trump. Well, we're going to be speaking to Mary Trump, who did just that she grew up with receiving gifts from Ivana and Donald, and you'll be very surprised and slightly cringe at what they gave her. But we're also going to be talking about his mental health and that moment when Mary Trump saw him recently in the White House and recognized his expression because it was the expression that her grandfather had as he was beginning to lose it later in life. She's a clinical psychologist, so she brings not only her family experiences, but a clinical, academic framework through which to understand them. We're going to be talking about Donald Trump's treatment of women, his mental health, and whether or not any of his children will succeed him. So no time to waste. Let's get into it. Mary Trump, thank you so much for joining us. So can we talk about his mental.
- [04:17]
Mary Trump
Health or lack thereof?
- [04:18]
Joanna Coles
Yes, yes, we do. Well, you've been talking about this a lot on your own media channel, Mary Trump Media. And last time you were on the podcast, you talked about having a moment where you saw Donald Trump in the White House and you suddenly recognized a look he had in his eyes that you recognized from your grandfather.
- [04:42]
Mary Trump
Yeah.
- [04:42]
Joanna Coles
Who also or who had dementia, who was diagnosed with dementia. As you're looking at the president's behaviour now as a clinical psychologist, but also someone who knows the family and knows the family history, what are you seeing?
- [04:59]
Mary Trump
I'm seeing more of the same, actually. For me, it's a difference in degree, not kind. And one of the things that's always surprised me is how many people have mischaracterized what I see as his lack of impulse control, his inability to rein in his temper, his inability to change or evolve or anything like that as strength. And I think his belligerence and his volume cover over a lot of sins. People mistake his being loud for being strong. And unfortunately, that's not at all the case. And we could see that in contrast to people's assessment of President Biden, he was quieter, he had a stutter. And they somehow equated that with mental. His inability to think things through or his weakness or his failing cognitive health, et cetera. So with Donald, again, it's more of the same, but more of the same in the sense that it's nothing new, but because anybody who has the kinds of severe psychiatric diagnoses he has, he's had them for decades, they've gone undiagnosed, they're going to get worse because they're untreated. So we are at this point now where his physical health, his cognitive decline, and his psychological. His lack of psychological health are all intersecting. And it's sort of this perfect storm that is accelerating the deterioration of all of them.
- [06:54]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so to put this in perspective for us, you've written a series of best selling books, and obviously you witnessed the household he grew up in. Can you talk about the brutality of the household that he grew up in? And also for people who don't know your work or who are maybe just joining this podcast for the first time, the fear of showing weakness in the Trump family.
- [07:25]
Mary Trump
I think the best place to start is when Donald was around two and a half, which is an extremely crucial period in human emotional and psychological development. He was the youngest of four. And at that point, my grandmother had just had her fifth child, my Uncle Robert, and nine months after that, she became very, very ill, and for the next year was essentially absent either emotionally or physically because she was in and out of the hospital. She had several operations, she was in a great deal of pain. So during this crucial developmental period, Donald was essentially without his mother, his primary caregiver. And the only person available to step in was my grandfather Fred, who was a sociopath who had no interest in children and who, like most sociopaths, believed that other people only existed to serve him right. And children serve no purpose for somebody like my grandfather. So during that time, Donald was in a state of near perpetual fear and loneliness. He wasn't nurtured, he wasn't mirrored, he wasn't held. And I can only imagine just how awful and dark that time was. Now, the problem for him, and of course, for all of us, is that when my grandmother did become available again, she didn't really do anything to mend the rifts. So Donald developed some very powerful defense mechanisms to keep himself from feeling so constantly terrified and alone. And those became hardened over time because, again, nothing had been done to ameliorate the breach in the first place, My grandfather. When my grandfather finally started to notice Donald, because all of his attention had been on my dad, who was the oldest son and namesake and potentially heir to the empire, my grandfather came to value those things that most of us were would consider negatives. The bullying, the contemptuousness, the always believing you're right, the thinking you're better than everybody else. And then as soon as Donald, for various complicated reasons, became my grandfather's choice, right. To take over the empire. Donald's personality was pretty much set in stone, by the way.
- [09:56]
Joanna Coles
And how old was Donald at the time that his father realized that he was probably the heir to the real estate fortune that he'd begun to develop?
- [10:06]
Mary Trump
He was probably a teenager in his late teens, maybe early 20s, but probably his late teens, because what happened first is that my grandfather realized, for some reasons I understand and some reasons I don't, that my father was not the right person. He tried. He. Right out of college, my father went to work with my grandfather.
- [10:28]
Rubrik Ad Voice
My.
- [10:28]
Mary Trump
But my grandfather made it very clear very early on that he didn't think my dad had the right stuff. He wasn't a killer, and he was not going to give him any real responsibility. He made his life miserable. And then at that point, my dad quit and decided to become a professional pilot for TWA in 1964. And even though he went back because my grandfather made it clear that being a pilot for TWA at the dawn of the jet age was beneath him, he referred to my grandfather as a bus driver in the sky.
- [11:02]
Joanna Coles
Crazy description.
- [11:03]
Mary Trump
Yeah. Considering pilots back then were rock stars. Truly, my grandfather, my dad did go back to Trump Management, but he was never given any responsibility again. And then Donald joined the company and was made president at the age of 24, leapfrogging my dad, who'd been there for 11 years.
- [11:22]
Joanna Coles
And what do you remember your father telling you about Uncle Donald?
- [11:29]
Mary Trump
He didn't really talk about him much. It was clear, though, especially in the early 70s, my dad had left the Trump Management again, and Donald had started the Trump Organization, or I should say my grandfather had started the Trump Organization for Donald, and that's Donald's company in Manhattan, because my grandfather's company had been in Brooklyn. But it was very obvious that my dad had a difficult time being around Donald, especially in that brief period in the late 60s, early 70s, when they were both still working in the Brooklyn office. And I think that was one of the reasons my dad finally just gave up and realized that there was nothing he could do to Be a viable member of the business. There was nothing he could do ever to win my grandfather's respect. So he just, he left the company. And then as I said, my grandfather set Donald up in Manhattan, which I guess had been the plan all along.
- [12:31]
Joanna Coles
So what do you remember of Trump family holidays? When you all got together when it was Christmas. I mean, one thinks of Donald Trump in the Home Alone movies. What was it like growing up at holiday time?
- [12:46]
Mary Trump
Well, I can start here. I am so deeply grateful that I never have to spend holidays with these people again.
- [12:56]
Joanna Coles
Oh, interesting. All right, do tell. You are not the only family member to say something like that, I'm sure.
- [13:03]
Mary Trump
First of all, Thanksgiving and Christmas were almost exactly the same, with one exception. Christmas had presents and we all had to buy Christmas presents for everybody.
- [13:16]
Joanna Coles
Wow. Yeah, that's a lot of people.
- [13:18]
Mary Trump
It's a lot of people. It was, I mean it got, it became more every year and it was. There are very cold people. So we get there, we hang up the coats, we go to.
- [13:31]
Joanna Coles
Wait a minute, where do you get. Do you go to your grandfather's hotel?
- [13:34]
Mary Trump
Oh, I'm so sorry. See, I'm just making an assumption that.
- [13:37]
Joanna Coles
Everybody would know for us. Mary set the scene.
- [13:40]
Mary Trump
Every Thanksgiving and every Christmas was at my grandparents house, which we called the house in Jamaica Estates, Queens.
- [13:48]
Joanna Coles
Okay.
- [13:49]
Mary Trump
And it was sort of this mini mansion on top of a hill. And it was a very cold place, figuratively speaking. We would repair to the living room, which we never went into any other days of the year. Just Thanksgiving and Christmas, right? And we would go and have shrimp cocktails and then we would have dinner, which again was identical on Thanksgiving. Turkey, stuffing, mashed potatoes, sweet potatoes. You know what most people do, right? One year, my grandmother had the audacity to make roast beef for Christmas, right? And we were carnivores. We loved us some cow. And Robert and Donald were so mean to her about it. She just like sat at the. I sat next to my grandmother. We were at the weekend of the table. She basically spent the whole meal in silence crying because they were so mean about the roast beef on Thanksgiving. Wow, mom, how could you possibly. Where's the turkey? Anyway, they were pretty petty. So without one exception, every holiday was pretty much the same. And then after dinner we would open presents. And there were, as you can imagine, dozens and dozens of packages because we all had to buy everybody presents, right? And then I don't think it ever lasted more than an hour and a half or two hours, thankfully.
- [15:15]
Joanna Coles
But after the whole thing, the shrimp cocktail the meal and the present giving.
- [15:19]
Mary Trump
The present giving. And then we would end up in the room called the library, which is where we spent most of our time. It was a very small room, it was not big enough for all of us. And Rob and Donald would have a football game on or something. And yes, it was called library, but it had no books in it until the Art of the Deal was published.
- [15:37]
Joanna Coles
I was going to say. And then it probably had wall to wall Art of the Deal. Just one, just one copy. And when you look back at those meals, what did you all talk about?
- [15:47]
Mary Trump
Well, those of us on the weekend of the table didn't really talk about anything. We were, I refer to us as being the people in the cheap seats. We were just there to watch and be in the audience. The conversation was almost exclusively among Donald, my grandfather, my aunt Marianne, and Robert.
- [16:09]
Joanna Coles
And Robert was the younger brother, the.
- [16:11]
Mary Trump
Youngest of all five of them. Yeah, my dad was very often not there and when he was, he sat on my grandmother's end of the table.
- [16:20]
Joanna Coles
And your father was struggling at this point because he was struggling with alcohol.
- [16:24]
Mary Trump
My dad, as far as I'm aware, and I believe this to be true because I've spoken to enough people, did not have a problem with alcohol until he started flying for twa. And it's not because he was flying for twa, it's because his family was constantly bombarding him with the kinds of insults my grandfather lobbed at him, you know, what are you doing? You're throwing your life away, you're not in the family business, you're a loser, et cetera. And that's when he started struggling with drinking also. When you're a pilot, you have three or four days off at a time. He and my mom lived in Marblehead. There were a lot of pilots up there, so there was a lot of socializing. They also had a very young son.
- [17:11]
Joanna Coles
At the time, your brother.
- [17:12]
Mary Trump
My brother. So there were a lot of stressors. And that's when my dad started having problem with alcohol. And it's a problem he never ever solved. And it just continued to get worse. So by the time I came around and we were spending all the holidays at my grandparents house, my parents were already divorced. They got divorced or they split up, I should say when I was two and a half. And much of the time, because my mother was expected to go to all of the holidays despite the fact that she and my dad were no longer together. And we were always expected to go to them and never her family. My dad very often wasn't there.
- [17:50]
Joanna Coles
And do you know where he was?
- [17:52]
Mary Trump
I don't. I know that for a couple of years he moved down to West Palm Beach, Florida. So obviously he was down there. But other than that I don't know. Which is, now that I think about it, kind of sad that nobody knew, nobody asked, nobody cared, and that he.
- [18:09]
Joanna Coles
Wasn'T at his own family holiday celebrations. And given that your uncle, the President of the United States has suggested this year that people just give their daughters two dolls and not 30 dolls. When you were having the present exchange, were these lavish presents? Were they cheap presents? What was the sort of, you know, how luxurious did the whole event seem?
- [18:40]
Mary Trump
Everybody familiar with the term re gifting.
- [18:44]
Joanna Coles
Right?
- [18:45]
Mary Trump
Yeah. It also depended on who was giving the gift and who was getting the gift. There was a real hierarchy. So my. I have to be honest, I don't remember the kinds of gifts my grandmother. I got a lot of clothes, I think, and I don't remember what anybody else gave me except for Donald and Ivana. And that's for a very specific reason, which I'll get to in a second. But in terms of the way my grandmother gave presents to her daughters in law and at the time there were three, there was Ivana Blaine, Robert's wife, and my mother. My mother would get things that had been bought on sale at lesser stores. And it was very obvious and kind of. It was very upsetting to her how she was treated like a second class citizen, which they believed her to be. I remember Donald and Ivana's presence because they were so hysterically inappropriate.
- [19:50]
Joanna Coles
Right. Like what? I can't even imagine what that would be.
- [19:53]
Mary Trump
The very first, because they didn't get together until I was about 12. I think they got married when I was 12. So the very first Christmas Ivana stayed with us. My gift from Donald and her. And again, I don't know that Donald ever got us gifts before he was married. Very possibly not because it's often the.
- [20:11]
Joanna Coles
Wife'S duty, isn't it?
- [20:12]
Mary Trump
Men don't have to do such things. Even though we had to get all of them presents. My very first gift from them was a three pack of underwear from Bloomingdale's. Called Bloomies, right? Yes. $12 retail.
- [20:28]
Joanna Coles
$12 worth of panties.
- [20:30]
Mary Trump
A three pack of Blumies under our. But I have to say my second gift from them was my favorite of all time. It was a basket wrapped in cellophane. And in the middle of the basket, and it had the kind of straw that's in Easter baskets.
- [20:50]
Joanna Coles
Right.
- [20:50]
Mary Trump
Was one gold Lame high heel shoe filled with hard candy that was wrapped in cellophane. So I'm guessing it's something she got at a luncheon.
- [21:04]
Joanna Coles
Right. Right. It's either a goodie bag gift. Right. So it sounds like it was a promotional. Possibly that she'd gotten at something.
- [21:12]
Mary Trump
Possibly. So, yes. I mean, one goleme high heel shoes, not really my style. But it wouldn't have mattered anyway because.
- [21:19]
Joanna Coles
There'S only one of them. And what was Ivana like as an aunt? I mean, one forgets about Ivana and yet she was an Olympic Czech skier. In her day.
- [21:30]
Mary Trump
In her day. You know, it's funny, I never considered her an aunt. She never acted like one.
- [21:37]
Joanna Coles
Really.
- [21:38]
Mary Trump
The only time she talked to me beyond the hi, how are you, how's school, that kind of thing. It was Christmas, and I'm sure I was admiring whatever gift she'd give me. And I was sitting on the stairs in the foyer, which is where the Christmas tree was next to my pile of presents, reading Omni magazine, which had just come out within the last year. It was my favorite thing in the world as a kid. I was a science fiction fanatic. I only read science fiction. And Omni magazine was a science fiction science fact magazine. It had amazing illustrations, great short stories, and as soon as I could get my hands on it, I would read it cover to cover.
- [22:22]
Joanna Coles
And it's hard to remember how important magazines were in those days. Right. Because they were like something. It was like a finger beckoning you to the future in a way that there was no other media. I mean, it was obviously pre digital, pre anything. And I remember as a kid being so excited when my magazines came.
- [22:40]
Mary Trump
Yeah. And this would have been in the late 70s.
- [22:43]
Joanna Coles
Yeah. So hugely exciting.
- [22:45]
Mary Trump
Yes. And I, you know, everybody else was doing their own thing and I thought, okay, good, I can keep reading Omni magazine. And Ivana comes over and she says, oh, is that yours? I said, yes, I love this magazine so much. And she said, I know the publisher, if you ever want to meet him. And I'm thinking that that is probably the coolest thing that could possibly ever happen. Right. It would be. Not quite as good as, but close to meeting, like Isaac Asimov or Ray Bradbury.
- [23:18]
Joanna Coles
Right.
- [23:19]
Mary Trump
So I tell my dad about it later and he says, I don't think that's such a great idea. And it turns out the publisher of Omni magazine was Bob Guccione, who is the publisher of Penthouse magazine.
- [23:34]
Joanna Coles
Right.
- [23:35]
Mary Trump
And yes. So that, I mean, I don't think it ever would have happened. Anyway, she probably would have forgotten about it, but it's just as well, right?
- [23:43]
Joanna Coles
Anyway, at least he didn't join family gatherings, though he would have probably livened things up, actually, to have Bob Guccioni there, maybe. He's such a character. So the Trump household is essentially characterised as brutal, and you must not show any evidence of weakness. I'm sort of thinking about Marjorie Taylor Greene stepping back this month and also Elise Stefanik saying that she wants no more to do with it, and both of them saying that women have issues with what's going on in the MAGA movement and the Republican Party. And Elise Stefnik in particular, confronting Mike Johnson, who, as Michael Wolff said last week on the podcast, probably doesn't believe that women should actually even have the vote. Does this sound familiar to you? What have your observations been about your uncle's behavior around women?
- [24:43]
Mary Trump
Well, he's a hardcore misogynist through and through. He was raised by misogynists. Every, not everybody, but almost everybody in my family, including the women, were misogynists. My Aunt Marianne, who was a federal judge, had deep contempt for women. It was quite shocking sometimes to hear the things she would say.
- [25:04]
Joanna Coles
Like what?
- [25:05]
Mary Trump
Well, she. I hate this word, but just quoting her directly, she referred to women as bitches. She thought they were catty and gossipy and not as smart as men and not as accomplished as men.
- [25:19]
Joanna Coles
She seemed very smart and very accomplished. Was she an exception? Why would she be the only female that was smart and accomplished?
- [25:27]
Mary Trump
Well, it sort of reminds me of so many of Donald's most loyal sycophants that they understand that loyalty is a one way street, but they also believe that they alone will still be standing. Whereas we've seen time and time again, people who are completely loyal to Donald, like Marjorie Taylor Greene, like Elise Stefanik, get thrown under the bus eventually, no matter what they do. So they all remind me of people who chain smoke, who think, yes, I know cigarette smoking causes lung cancer, but it's not going to get me.
- [26:02]
Joanna Coles
I'm the exception.
- [26:03]
Mary Trump
Exactly. So I think in some ways, Marianne did believe she was the exception, but at the same time, she also struggled with her own internalized misogyny because she was the oldest child, and it was never even a thought on anybody's mind that she would take over the family business. It took her a very long time to get to the point where she realized that it wasn't only her purpose to get married and have children. She was in graduate school at Columbia when she dropped out, got married, had a child, and it took many, many years for her to get out of that and go to law school, become a prosecutor, et cetera. So in some ways, I think she does think she was the exception to the rule. But she was also deeply insecure about it as well, especially if we remember that the reason she got her federal judgeship in the first place is because Donald called in a favor of Roy Cohn.
- [26:58]
Joanna Coles
Is that true?
- [26:58]
Mary Trump
Yes, that is true.
- [26:59]
Joanna Coles
Right. I didn't realize that. Wow.
- [27:01]
Mary Trump
Roy Cohn of all people.
- [27:03]
Joanna Coles
Right? Roy Cohn of all people. And of course, you think of all the people that worked for Donald Trump that have ended up going to jail for him, too. Michael Cohen, Allen Weisselberg, I mean, all sorts of people in his orbit who've literally served time.
- [27:18]
Mary Trump
Steve Bannon, I think about that often. And I also think about all of the people in Donald's orbit who were actual pedophiles and women, who have sexually harassed or assaulted women and who have committed business fraud, et cetera. And it's not that that doesn't surprise me because I guess birds of a feather. What surprises me is how many people seem to think that Donald remains untouched by any of that, really, as if it's just some kind of huge coincidence.
- [27:55]
Joanna Coles
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- [31:25]
Joanna Coles
And we're back with Mary Trump discussing the man in the White House. So Marjorie Taylor Greene and Elise Stefanik have both talked about the difficulties for women in the party, and neither of them got cabinet positions. I think Elise Stefanik was promised the UN job, didn't get the UN job. Both she and Marjorie Taylor Greene felt let down. And then of course you have the picking on female reporters, the quiet piggy, the stupid Are you stupid? Does that remind you of the household? In a way. I mean, it seems to have echoes of what you're talking about, the sort of picking on people.
- [32:08]
Mary Trump
Oh yeah. Yes. Again, being weak in my family was the worst thing you could be. Being a woman, actually. Sorry, being weak was the second worst thing. Being a woman was the worst thing you could be. Yeah. So that's partially, I think, why Marianne refused to succumb to what she thought, in her twisted way, were the negative qualities of being a woman.
- [32:40]
Joanna Coles
And did she and Donald get on?
- [32:44]
Mary Trump
I think in her mind, she believed that as his much older sister, I think she was nine or 10 years older, he respected her and he listened to her. I don't think that's actually true, but there was a time during the first administration, she told me that she had called him before he was going to see Kim Jong Un, and she said he needed to prepare and she told him he needs to stay off Twitter, he needs to stay away from Dennis Rodman. And she listed all of these things she told him to do, and he did exactly the opposite of what she told him to do. So I think that was just her way of feeling like she had some authority in the family. I think she fancied herself the matriarch after my grandparents died, but that doesn't mean it was true. I don't think she actually did have any authority over him, certainly.
- [33:46]
Joanna Coles
So among your cousins, Don Jr. Ivanka Tiffany, Eric Barron, who do you see as the sort of natural successors to Donald?
- [33:57]
Mary Trump
None.
- [33:59]
Joanna Coles
None?
- [33:59]
Mary Trump
None.
- [34:00]
Joanna Coles
Explain.
- [34:02]
Mary Trump
I mean, I guess it depends what we're talking about. If we're talking about in terms of any kind of political dynasty. Absolutely not. None of them has any charisma. None of them is tapped in. Donnie has tried to out Maga Maga, but again, he has no charisma and he has no. There's just no. And this sounds weird because I understand we're talking about Donald, but he does have charisma. And there are people who do see him as a strong leader, which is shocking, but tens of millions of people.
- [34:38]
Joanna Coles
But he can present like that. Yeah, he's very much a performer in that vein.
- [34:42]
Mary Trump
Yes. And he understands in a sort of lizard brain way how to tap into people's insecurities and rage and fears.
- [34:51]
Joanna Coles
And he also presented huge reality show for 14 seasons.
- [34:57]
Mary Trump
Yeah, exactly. And that shaped further the myth my grandfather started about him in the 70s, right. Or late 60s even. None of them has any of that when it comes to the business interests. And it's a nightmare that is unfolding in America. The corruption is just extraordinary. But they are more than happy to profit off of it, possibly because they know that once Donald is no longer in the White House, that all comes to an end.
- [35:32]
Joanna Coles
So, with your training as a clinical psychologist, can you explain to us the sort of. I mean, your uncle is a charismatic leader in the very traditional sense, the Max Weber sense of someone. You yourself said he was a nihilist last time you were on, and he'd pull the whole house down with him. Can you sort of explain his relationship with the children? Does he not want them to follow him? And why don't they have more charisma?
- [36:08]
Mary Trump
It's interesting because in this way, Donald is very different from my grandfather. My grandfather believed in his legacy. His legacy was more important than anything else to him, and that's why he was so interested in having what he considered to be the right successor. It wasn't my dad, for many reasons, he thought it was Donald. And yet, as soon as my grandfather dies, what does Donald and his siblings do? He sells off the Trump empire so it no longer exists. Destroys my grandfather's legacy like that. Donald doesn't care about legacy at all, because, as I said last time, he does not. It's not only that he thinks that nothing can succeed him, nothing can live beyond him. It's unfathomable to him that anything should. And picking a successor means admitting that you think somebody is worthy or as worthy as you, and he can't do that because he's better than everybody else. So this is something he does have in common with my grandfather. For Donald, his children are there to be of use to him, and his.
- [37:27]
Joanna Coles
Children are there to be of use to him.
- [37:30]
Mary Trump
Yes. And every single relationship he has, including with his children, and this works for them as well, is transactional. So we've seen Ivanka stepping back. We never. I haven't. I don't remember the last time I heard anything about her. Her being associated with her father was no longer of use to her.
- [37:51]
Joanna Coles
Right. And she said it was. Politically, she found politics cruel.
- [37:56]
Mary Trump
Really? Wow, that's. That's a statement coming from her. But anyway, considering how integral a part she was of the cruelty of the first Trump administration, that's quite something. Yes. I think she's solely interested in rehabilitating her standing in the world of the obscenely rich or something. I don't know. I don't travel in those circles, but it's. It is all transactional with them. And I think that on some level, at least, Donald understands that none of his children is capable of or shares any of the qualities he has. Not that they're valuable qualities, mind you, but they've gotten him pretty far.
- [38:46]
Joanna Coles
Right, so the last time you came on the Kennedy center had not yet been renamed the Trump Kennedy Center. I wanted to get your thoughts on that. And then again, with your clinical psychologist hat on. What does it say about your uncle that he's putting his name on everything? I mean, huge institutions now, the Donald Trump Peace Institute, we're used to him slapping his names on rental buildings, but big national institutions, a memorial for a president who was assassinated. What were your immediate thoughts? And then what's your sort of deeper understanding of why he feels the need to do this?
- [39:38]
Mary Trump
Sorry, I'm trying to contain my contempt. I find it absolutely obscene. First of all, it's illegal he can etch his name into the facade of a building, but it doesn't mean that that's what it's called now, because that's up to Congress. Also, last I checked, you're not really supposed to be naming things after living presidents, current or former.
- [40:02]
Joanna Coles
And also, the juxtaposition of Donald J. Trump and John F. Kennedy feels very jarring.
- [40:11]
Mary Trump
It's very jarring. Just as it's very jarring having his face next to George Washington face on entry tickets to our national parks, et cetera, et cetera.
- [40:20]
Joanna Coles
Is that what he's doing now?
- [40:21]
Mary Trump
Yes.
- [40:21]
Joanna Coles
Oh, I missed that.
- [40:22]
Mary Trump
Yeah. Well, how can we keep up?
- [40:24]
Joanna Coles
Right, Exactly. How can we keep. No, he floods the Zone. Floods the Zone.
- [40:28]
Mary Trump
And that's intentional. That's definitely intentional. But to your point about slapping his name on everything and the obscenity of it, the Institute of Peace is. Is not. It's not associated with the executive branch, and it underwent a hostile takeover, by which, I mean, armed guards were sent to remove the employees of the Institute of Peace. So the gall of naming this after him is. That's quite something. The Kennedy center is even more offensive if you look at some of the things that President Kennedy had to say about the imperial importance of the arts and what we should aspire to as a country, many of those quotes etched on the facade of that building, it just underscores how egregious this is. Donald cares nothing for the arts. He and his administration have underfunded or defunded them. He wants to turn every public space in America into some version of WWE or Ultimate Fighting. And it is just grotesque that he thinks that somehow this legitimizes him or gives him the same stature and standing as somebody like President Kennedy. But that's partially why he's doing it for himself.
- [41:47]
Joanna Coles
Right.
- [41:48]
Mary Trump
You know, same reason he's building that ballroom, and he's going to build an arch in his honor. For the 250th anniversary. It's truly les tat c' est moi for him. But here's the thing. It's never going to be enough. Ever.
- [42:06]
Joanna Coles
Right?
- [42:07]
Mary Trump
He is constantly trying to fill a void that cannot be filled. And the reason is actually pretty simple. Even though Donald was the preferred child of my grandfather, and by preferred I mean most useful to him, most useful in advancing his own agenda, my grandfather and my grandmother rendered Donald unlovable. The only thing, the thing he most desperately wants in his life is to be loved. He never has been sufficiently, he never will be. That is an impossible thing for him to achieve. So everything else, the money, the power, putting his name on everything, that is all in service to filling a black hole that is unfillable. And I think if we can take a step back and detach ourselves from the horror this man has, horrors this man has committed and continues to commit. That is a tragedy. That is a tragedy to say about another human being. I'm not saying we should care about him or have any compassion for him. I have a lot of compassion for that child, though. And the truth of the matter is that because of that, because his needs will never be met and he can never grapple with them in a real way because he's just a terrified little boy who cannot face the truth about himself, all of us are suffering.
- [43:37]
Joanna Coles
Do you think he has any awareness of that?
- [43:40]
Mary Trump
He doesn't have any conscious awareness of that, but he certainly understands it on a deep unconscious level. And that's why so much of his psychic and emotional energy is spent protecting himself from that knowledge. It's a full time job.
- [43:57]
Joanna Coles
Do you have any sense of why he doesn't read anything?
- [44:01]
Mary Trump
I don't. He. Well, I think at its most basic level, it's because such things weren't valued in my family. There were, as I mentioned, there were no books in the library. My grandfather read the New York newspapers and that was it. Culture wasn't valued. We never ever went to museums together. Like my mom took us to museums and Broadway shows and stuff like that. But the Trump family, no museums, no libraries, no bookstores, nothing. There was no cultural life in my family at all. And that's another sense in which it was a brutal household and it was devoid of comfort. There was no music in the house. My grandmother would get books from the library once in a while. She'd read the very popular romance novelist at the time.
- [44:59]
Joanna Coles
You've had legal battles with the family. Can you talk a little bit about how the Trumps have always used lawyers and are in a constant state of conflict with both each other and the outside world. Contractors, people they're doing business with, other business partners. And now you see this very much in Donald Trump threatening to sue everybody around him.
- [45:24]
Mary Trump
Yeah, I think historically for Donald in particular, it was just a manipulative power play. He has all the lawyers, he has all the money. If a contractor wants to get paid for services rendered, Donald just isn't going to pay him. And if the contractor sues, Donald will just drag it out. So the contractor either goes bankrupt or has to settle for pennies on the dollar. That's just, it's a way of being really cheap and a way of making it clear that your business practice involves treating people who do work for you horribly. Which is one of the main reasons I was so horrified by his ability in the 2016 campaign to present himself as some kind of champion of the working people of America. That, to me was just unbelievable that the media allowed him to get away with, with that, you know, right up there with letting people think he was a successful businessman despite the six bankruptcies of casinos, of all things.
- [46:30]
Joanna Coles
Right, well, casinos, water, university, steaks, champagne.
- [46:35]
Mary Trump
Yes, yes, pretty much everything. An airline.
- [46:37]
Joanna Coles
Right, the airline. Right.
- [46:40]
Mary Trump
So. And the other thing that people don't seem to know is that while all of that was going on, he was allowed to continue to live his lifestyle because the banks were worried that if he didn't, that it would further devalue anything associated with him. Like that's how bad it was. And yet, no. Brilliant, brilliant, savant businessman.
- [47:03]
Joanna Coles
Well, and then remade as a brilliant businessman on the Apprentice by Mark Burnett.
- [47:08]
Mary Trump
Yes.
- [47:08]
Joanna Coles
Thank you, Mark Burnett, America's businessman.
- [47:11]
Mary Trump
Yeah. Unbelievable. The strategy is different now, although the impulse is the same. I'm going to use my endless supply of lawyers. And now he doesn't have to pay for them anymore.
- [47:25]
Joanna Coles
Right. Because it's the Justice Department.
- [47:27]
Mary Trump
The Justice Department. Or even between his two terms, it was Republican voters donating to his campaign or to the rnc. So he's never been on the hook for any legal bills. Or if he is, he just doesn't pay them because who's going to make them?
- [47:45]
Joanna Coles
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- [50:23]
Joanna Coles
And I'm back with Mary Trump discussing who else? Her uncle. So what is it like being in a family where you have lawsuits going back and forth because you've been involved in lawsuits with the Trumps?
- [50:35]
Mary Trump
I still am as a matter of fact.
- [50:37]
Joanna Coles
So how long have those been going on?
- [50:39]
Mary Trump
Well, there's only one left, right? Luckily in the first was well the first was a very long time ago, but just in terms of recent times, my family sued to prevent the publication of my first book. Luckily, I had extraordinary lawyers who made sure that the book was published and.
- [51:02]
Joanna Coles
Then went on to be a huge bestseller.
- [51:04]
Mary Trump
It did well. Yeah.
- [51:07]
Joanna Coles
You're allowed to own it, Mary.
- [51:08]
Mary Trump
Yes, it did well. Well, what I like to say, and this is just for a very specific reason, in one day, it sold more copies than Donald's Art of the deal sold in 30 years. That's fun for me to say.
- [51:19]
Joanna Coles
Bravo. Bravo. That feels like a very Trumpian thing to say.
- [51:24]
Mary Trump
And, you know, I pride myself on being nothing like them.
- [51:28]
Joanna Coles
But you can take the girl out of the family, but you can't take the family out of the girl.
- [51:32]
Mary Trump
And it bothers him. So there you go. So it's fun for me. But then I learned through the brilliant investigative reporting in the New York Times that was published on October 2, 2018, that I had actually been defrauded out of my inheritance by my aunts and uncles. So that was in, I think, the fall of 2020. A year later, Donald sued me for $100 million for breach of contract or something. And sadly, my case went nowhere. And his case is still going, so he is still suing me for $100 million.
- [52:19]
Joanna Coles
And how do you sort of handle that? What do you. Is he expecting you to settle for 10? In the way that he goes after media institutions, how does this resolve?
- [52:33]
Mary Trump
Again? I. I can't talk much about it, but I think he probably let me put it in these terms. I think there's a class of lawsuit he's engaged in now in which there are two goals, complete capitulation and or silencing of the person. So we've seen that with Tish James, James Comey and Adam Schiff, and I'm sure there will be many, many others. So instead of using lawsuits as a tool to get out of paying what he owes people, he's using them as a tool of retribution, of silencing, and probably, maybe even more importantly to him, maybe not as important as retribution and vengeance, but. But also important, just making the other person bend the knee. This is the thing again, there's no end of lawyers who will represent him. There's no end of funds. Or again, the funds aren't his anyway. And in what universe does Donald Trump think that he can't get away with everything? Because he has. And he does.
- [53:53]
Joanna Coles
Yes, he does. Well, he hasn't got away with everything because you're his niece and you've Proved a feisty opponent.
- [54:03]
Mary Trump
Well, I guess that's true. Hence the lawsuit.
- [54:08]
Joanna Coles
So the other thing that's happened since we last saw each other was the release of the Epstein files, or the beginning of the release of the Epstein files. Do you have any thoughts on whether or not that impacts him at all? It does feel like Jeffrey Epstein is the one person that gets under his skin, and it's the one story that he can't out dodge. He's so good at driving the narrative forward. But the Epstein story has continued to dog him.
- [54:38]
Mary Trump
This is perhaps the one misstep we can point to. Running in 2024 on the promise to his hardest core constituents who believe that the Epstein files will implicate globalists and people at the upper echelons, the Democratic Party, that the. That as soon as he's in office, he's going to release them. He comes into office, he doesn't release them. The DOJ says that they are real, and then the DOJ says that they're of no consequence whatsoever. Instead of ordering their release, he makes Congress go through this arduous process of forcing a vote on the House floor after months to force Mike Johnson to force the doj. It's, et cetera, et cetera. When at any moment, Donald could simply have said, pam Bondi released the files.
- [55:41]
Joanna Coles
Right.
- [55:42]
Mary Trump
Now, this clearly got a lot of people's attention. Do I care? Do you care if the Epstein files are released? Yes. And no matter who's implicated, Democrat, Republican is irrelevant. Anybody who is complicit in those crimes needs to be exposed. Period. End of story. Does Donald care that you and I want the Epstein files released?
- [56:02]
Joanna Coles
No.
- [56:03]
Mary Trump
His base wants the Epstein files released, though.
- [56:06]
Joanna Coles
Right.
- [56:06]
Mary Trump
So he has painted himself into a corner. And in trying to get out of that corner, which is an impossible task, he has made himself look extraordinarily guilty. Now, do I have any special knowledge about. Well, we know he's in the Epstein files. Do I have any.
- [56:24]
Joanna Coles
And we know that because Elon Musk told us that. Apart from anything else. Right. Remember when they were having a spat, Elon tweeted from is in the Epstein files. And then a day later, I think he deleted it.
- [56:34]
Mary Trump
That's right. Well, actually, Pam Bondi also told us this. His name is mentioned several times right now. That could be completely innocent. I don't know. He's best friends with a monster for many, many years, so who knows? However, whether or not he's implicated in Epstein and Maxwell's crimes remains to be seen. It wouldn't surprise me Given who he is and the kind of person he is and the kind of relationship he and Epstein had. But he acts as if there is something damning in those files. One thing Donald is very adept at is leading people who support him to believe that his crimes are actually a bonus. They give him street cred and make him strong. So, for example, we know that a jury of his peers found him liable for defamation and sexual assault, and that increased his popularity and among the Republican base. So I'm not saying he's not concerned that if indeed he is implicated in some of the horrific crimes Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell committed, that that won't cause him problems. But I also wonder if some of the things in there may just be things that are going to humiliate him, because that's what. What worries him more than anything else. Being humiliated, being mocked, being seen for the pathetic, incompetent loser he is.
- [58:01]
Joanna Coles
So are you spending time looking at the Epstein files when they come, when they come out in their dribs and drabs?
- [58:09]
Mary Trump
No, because there is literally no reason to trust this so called Department of Justice. It is wholly in service to protecting Donald Trump and going after his political enemies. There is no reason for us to believe that anything they release won't be vetted or redacted or used either to shield him or implicate people he considers enemies.
- [58:37]
Joanna Coles
Wow. Well, Mary Trump, what are you planning to do for the holidays?
- [58:42]
Mary Trump
Well, I'm actually taking some time off. I don't think I've had more than a day off. In which century of the Trump regime are we in? So I'm taking the three days off and then we're going to London for New Year's.
- [58:58]
Joanna Coles
Oh, fun.
- [58:58]
Mary Trump
Yeah, fun, yes.
- [59:00]
Joanna Coles
Great.
- [59:00]
Mary Trump
Very much looking forward to that.
- [59:01]
Joanna Coles
Well, I have a wonderful holiday and please come back in the new year and let's continue this. The more I talk to you, the more I have an understanding of why his personality is, I think, formed like it has. And your point about no matter how many times he puts his names on the most sacred of American buildings or institutions, it still won't fill the hole that was left.
- [59:28]
Mary Trump
Right? It won't. And I think this is something that's really important for the rest of us to remember because I know this can be very demoralizing and it is a desecration. As soon as he's out of the White House, it's all coming down.
- [59:43]
Joanna Coles
Will he manage to carve himself onto Mount Rushmore before he goes?
- [59:50]
Mary Trump
Wow. I don't know. He's so busy with the ballroom.
- [59:53]
Joanna Coles
He's so busy with the ballroom. It's true. Well, I'm very much looking forward to the ballroom being built. Do you have a date when you think it'll be finished by.
- [60:00]
Mary Trump
Well, it is his priority, not feeding Americans, not lowering inflation or prices or. I mean, he's also busy destroying our reputation around the world as long as well as liberal democracy. But I think the ballroom will probably be done by spring.
- [60:17]
Joanna Coles
Oh, wow. You think he can get the ballroom.
- [60:19]
Mary Trump
Up that fast and he's got $400 million to do it with.
- [60:23]
Joanna Coles
Right, right, right, right. Well, Mary Trump, thank you very much. Have a fabulous holiday and thank you for bringing us. I hasten to say this is, it's not really good cheer, but it is a good explanation of the man swinging his legs from the chair behind the Resolute desk.
- [60:39]
Mary Trump
Thank you. This was wonderful. I appreciate it. Happy New Year.
- [60:41]
Joanna Coles
Happy New Year. I could listen to Mary Trump all afternoon. She's got such insights and I think her training as a psychologist has really helped her understand this very strange man that's emerged from her family. And of course that wounding moment when he was two and a half years old and his mother basically disappeared because she was ill and in pain and he really lost his central caregiver. Anyway, I always find her fascinating. Her books are riveting. I really recommend them. If you're looking for a last minute Christmas gift, go on Amazon and order them. And then perhaps you can pre book tickets for Melania the documentary who was of course her aunt in law or just aunt actually, I guess aunt. Anyway, if you have been, thank you for joining us. Have a very happy holiday. If you don't tune in to Inside Trump's Head tomorrow, but you really should because Michael Wolff and I will be back discussing the news of the the day. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast. Please leave us a comment. We love your comments. You're always correcting the things that I get wrong. Like the pronunciation of Elise Stefanik's name. I think I called her Stefanik and a lot of people pointed out it's Stefanik. And why didn't I know that? Why indeed. So many things I get wrong. But I love your comments pointing it out. And also the comments that say you like what we're talking about. Those help too. And don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast where we bring you up to date, minute by minute, second by second, nanosecond by nanosecond, updates on the crazy that's going on in this country. And big thank you of course to our Beast tier level of subscribers. We love you and I notice a lot of you are beginning to comment too. So thank you to Heidi Reilly, Karen White, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Bocock D.C. who Michael sometimes calls Bobcock, but it's Bocock D.C. andrea Hodel, Val Love, Francisco Bonzo, Laz Conde, Andrew Mellor, Herbie Fulvia, Orlando M. Griner, Daniel dog lover Dawn McCarthy, Harry Clark, capinator Andrew Beaver Travel with Carl Methinks and Sandra Clark. Thank you very much and our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Erssen and our editor Jesse Millwood.
- [63:20]
Mary Trump
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Mary Trump
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