RFK Jr.’s Sex Poetry Is Sophomoric Cringe: Author

Summary

The Daily Beast Podcast

Episode: "RFK Jr.’s Sex Poetry Is Sophomoric Cringe: Author"

Date: November 25, 2025
Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Kurt Andersen

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode takes a deep, irreverent, and insightful look at the swirl of U.S. politics and pop culture, centering on the recent revelations about RFK Jr.'s "sex poetry" and his tangle of relationships amid his presidential run. Host Joanna Coles is joined by celebrated writer and cultural critic Kurt Andersen for a lively discussion that weaves between RFK Jr.'s past indiscretions, the literary battle between his wife and digital mistress, and the shifting dynamics of American political powerbrokers—from Zoran Mamdani's meeting with Donald Trump to the public evolution of figures like Marjorie Taylor Greene.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. RFK Jr.’s "Sex Poetry" & The Digital Mistress Saga

• Cringe-worthy Love Letters

  • Coles and Andersen dissect the now-public "erotic" messages RFK Jr. sent to reporter Olivia Nuzzi.
  • Andersen describes the poetry as “reckless because he's married and running for president and like, dude, really... in a particularly adolescent way.”

    “Just the sheer awfulness of the poetry in its adolescent way is the thing that struck me.” —Kurt Andersen [02:00]

  • They read selections aloud, highlighting both the sophomoric eroticism and unsettling tones of dominance:

    “Your open mouth awaiting my harvest. Drink from me, love. I mean to squeeze your cheeks to force open your mouth...” —RFK Jr. (read by Joanna Coles) [01:28]

• Public Scandal and Literary Fallout

  • The drama widens with the near-simultaneous release of memoirs by Nuzzi (the "digital mistress") and Cheryl Hines (RFK Jr.’s wife).
  • Coles muses about the possibility the feuding exes are scripting their own public row.

    “They could have concocted the whole thing. And it's a fake row playing out in public for us all to get very interested.” —Joanna Coles [18:55]

  • Andersen: “I doubt that very much. I do think it’s real.” [19:30]

2. The Memorable Drug Dealer Anecdote

• Andersen recounts, with droll detail, how he bought cocaine from RFK Jr. at Harvard—an oft-requested story for podcast listeners:

  “I found out that Bobby Kennedy was the cocaine dealer of our class... there I was in his room with my roommate, consummating this drug deal for a gram of cocaine for $40. A lot of money in 1973 or whatever it was... He called me at my dorm room 10 minutes later, angry, appalled, upset that I had taken his straw man...” —Kurt Andersen [14:56-17:41]

• The story is used to illustrate RFK Jr.’s longtime streak of recklessness and the odd trajectory that led him to the presidential race.

3. Politics as Performance: The Mamdani–Trump Meeting

• Andersen and Coles break down the unusual and widely discussed meeting between Zoran Mamdani (a younger, ascendant New York politician) and Donald Trump, focusing on the body language and theatricality of the encounter.

  “The art of the great producer, right. That you deliver a twist. And then I thought there was an element of game recognizing game.” —Joanna Coles [07:48]

  • Andersen: “It was the most extraordinary political moment that I've witnessed in, well, certainly the last decade, really, I would say.” [03:34]
  • The conversation highlights the power dynamics, unexpected mutual respect, and how these moments reflect broader changes in the American political landscape.

4. The Competing Kennedys (Olivia Nuzzi, Cheryl Hines, and the Curse of Dynastic Politics)

• Coles and Andersen debate which tell-all will outsell the other, agreeing Olivia Nuzzi’s is the likely favorite due to public interest and her writing pedigree.
  • Coles reads an excerpt from Nuzzi’s forthcoming memoir, reflecting on RFK Jr.'s paranoid relationship to violence and family legacy:

    “I would take a bullet for you. The politician said. He always said that. Please don't say that. I said he always said that...” [31:14]

  • The conversation pivots to the endless fascination (and exhaustion) with Kennedy clan progeny, as further illustrated by Jack Schlossberg’s congressional run.

5. Reckoning with RFK Jr.’s Public Health Record

• The hosts remind listeners of the more dire implications of RFK Jr.’s platform:

  “Even worse of course potentially is the damage he is doing to this incredible public health medical research system that the United States is at the center of in the world.” —Kurt Andersen [35:32]

  • Andersen recounts the hypocrisy of RFK Jr. as a former addict and drug dealer now supporting draconian measures against drug offenders, while also being responsible for the proliferation of vaccine conspiracy theories.

6. Marjorie Taylor Greene’s Exit & The Right’s Next Evolution

• A detailed discussion about MTG’s resignation, her motives, her authenticity as a “true Moggan,” and speculation about the emerging post-Trump shape of the Republican party:

  “She may be the leading edge of, like, people opening their eyes and seeing the reality and they're not so deeply in the culture…that they can't finally wake up and go, yeah, this guy is not it. We're moving on.” —Kurt Andersen [53:32]

  • Coles points out how rising health care costs affect politicians personally, referencing MTG’s daughters:

    “…they are both going to see their health premiums rise considerably, probably double or possibly triple. So that also brings it home.” [54:07]

• The idea of an RFK Jr.–Marjorie Taylor Greene ticket is floated as a hypothetical encapsulation of the horseshoe theory, where far right and populist left might unite:

  “Or speaking of blonde women, Robert Kennedy Jr. The Bobby Marjorie ticket." —Kurt Andersen [58:20]
  "It seems unbelievable. An RFK Jr. MTG ticket. And yet the minute Kurt said it, I could sort of see it." —Joanna Coles [59:26]

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SELECTED MEMORABLE QUOTES (w/ TIMESTAMPS)

• “Just the sheer awfulness of the poetry in its adolescent way is the thing that struck me.” —Kurt Andersen [02:00]
• “Who has a true believer in nothing. That's a great line.” —Joanna Coles [13:13]
• “It's a masterclass in staying on message 100%.” —Joanna Coles [13:38]
• “It was the most extraordinary political moment that I've witnessed in, well, certainly the last decade, really, I would say.” —Kurt Andersen [03:34]
• “I would take a bullet for you. The politician said. He always said that. Please don't say that. I said he always said that.” —Olivia Nuzzi’s memoir, read by Joanna Coles [31:14]
• “He was a reckless adolescent. Then this poem… it's so a cringe in a particularly to me adolescent way.” —Kurt Andersen [21:56]
• “Even worse of course potentially is the damage he is doing to this incredible public health medical research system that the United States is at the center of in the world.” —Kurt Andersen [35:32]
• “She may be the leading edge of, like, people opening their eyes and seeing the reality…We're moving on.” —Kurt Andersen [53:32]
• “It seems unbelievable. An RFK Jr. MTG ticket. And yet the minute Kurt said it, I could sort of see it.” —Joanna Coles [59:26]

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• RFK Jr.'s Erotic Poetry Revealed (01:28–02:08, 19:33–23:13)
• Cocaine Story from Harvard (14:40–17:41)
• Mamdani and Trump: Political Showmanship (03:28–13:13)
• Kennedy Family Memoirs & Literary Drama (17:41–32:22)
• Public Health, Drugs, and Hypocrisy (34:40–37:16)
• Marjorie Taylor Greene’s Exit & Future of GOP (46:19–58:07)
• RFK Jr.-MTG Ticket Speculation (58:20–59:26)

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SUMMARY TONE

The conversation is quick-witted, irreverent, slightly gossipy yet deeply informed, with a heavy dash of cultural critique and political savvy. Andersen’s blend of humor and seriousness matches Coles’s energetic hosting—together, they deliver equal measures of snark, substance, and skepticism.

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This summary captures the essential themes, best lines, and major beats of the episode, giving a comprehensive and entertaining snapshot for those who missed the original.

Transcript

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[Joanna Coles]

I'm going to read you this is poetry that RFK Jr. Has sent to Olivia. Your open mouth awaiting my harvest. Drink from me, love, he continues. I mean to squeeze your cheeks to force open your mouth.

[Kurt Andersen]

This poem, you know, first of all reckless because he's married and he's running for president and like dude, really this is. But it's so a cringe in a particularly to me adolescent way. Just the sheer awfulness of the poetry in its adolescent way is the thing that struck me.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast and we have today a wonderful cultural commentator, co founder of Spy magazine, former editor of New York magazine, novelist and radio veteran Kurt Anderson. To break down all the things Marjorie Taylor Greene resigning the Mamdani and Trump meeting who won? We're going to analyze the love poetry of RFK Jr. Who you will remember was Kurt's cocaine dealer at Harvard. And we're going to look at the Competing Memoirs of RFK Jr. S Digital Mistress Olivia Nuzzi and his wife Cheryl Hynes Both books are out at the same week. Which one is going to sell more and which one is better written? Kurt makes a decision. So no time to waste. There is a lot going on and we're going to get into it. I think of you as one of the actually rare people who can pull in everything from pop culture, politics, economics, world peace, wars, and make sense out of it. Where do we begin? Should we begin with Zoran Mamdani and Donald Trump?

[Kurt Andersen]

Sure.

[Joanna Coles]

Whose chair, I thought looked oddly low behind the Resolute desk.

[Kurt Andersen]

Well, the entire setup, I mean, even before that 30 minute encounter with the press. And the two of them happened on Friday, which was the most extraordinary political moment that I've witnessed in, well, certainly the last decade, really, I would say.

[Joanna Coles]

Ok, interesting. That's a lot.

[Kurt Andersen]

But, you know, but the fact that Mamdani asked for the meeting, wow, that's a kind of power move, as it happened. And then there he is, like the old man sitting there looking, looking up at the guy and him just standing, you know, like the good boy that he is. It was so, yes, the body language, power dynamics of that were amazing from the get go. And then I was just, you know, my jaw dropped, literally, as I watched that show. That show.

[Joanna Coles]

Show. It is a show. It's a.

[Kurt Andersen]

Precisely. And that's one of the reasons. That's one of the reasons, you know, who knows? We only speculate about why Donald Trump behaved the way he did. But one of them, of course, one of the reasons, of course, is that he is about the show, today's show, what will be exciting, what will keep people riveted, what will get me more attention. Not that it was that specifically tactical, cynical, strategic, I don't think. But heit's part of whateverything he does. Right. So. But I think it wasi mean, who knows, again, what is genuine coming out of Donald Trump's mouth and brain. But it seemed like a guy, this avuncular old man, like, patting him on the thing and I'll just go ahead and tell him I'm a fascist and it's easier. I mean, like, yeah, I mean, it was remarkable. And my theory on that, and I think by a close reading of the transcript, confirmed it, which is that Mamdani was just played it perfectly in being respectful. Right. Called him the President.

[Joanna Coles]

Yep.

[Kurt Andersen]

President Trump. The President. He didn't go in there, you know, with fists raised or anything. He wanted to, you know, get along as he should have tried to get along. And so he did that. I also think, because Donald Trump My kind of main theory of the case of why it went the way it did is because Donald Trump is in his bubble. He sees what he sees and hears what he hears on Fox News and, you know, associated right wing media sphere. But he didn't really know what Mamdani proposed.

[Joanna Coles]

Right, right.

[Kurt Andersen]

He didn't know, oh, rent, freeze. It didn't sound so bad, probably to Donald Trump in a certain way, but it doesn't sound radical. None of this stuff is radical. So he probably. But moreover, specifically, I think Mamdani came in there and said, you know, when they were sitting alone, I'm sure said, Mr. President, you know, I really took off by going and speaking to your voters, working class people of color in the Bronx and Queens, and said, why did you vote for Donald Trump? Why did you vote for Donald Trump? And that was really the basis of my campaign. I'm sure it was something like that. And I'm sure, sure Donald Trump had no clue that that was the viral video that set Mamdani off in the fall of 2024. And I think at that point, like, wow, I love this kid. You know, we're the same. And just like I share some things with Bernie Sanders, we share some. We're outsiders and we ran against our party and all that. I think it was just like, it was a new brilliant level of flattery. It wasn't just the flattery that everyone does and that, you know, Macron and Zelenskyy and Europeans do now, which is just excruciating.

[Joanna Coles]

And it's fawning. It's fawning. It's not sophisticated.

[Kurt Andersen]

This is much more sophisticated. Much more like a chess game, I think. I think. And you know, and then there it went. And it was, it was remarkable. But I think, you know, and again, as everybody says, of course, you know, a month from now, he could be saying, no, he's a communist jihadist. I was right the first time a month.

[Joanna Coles]

He's going to do that this week.

[Kurt Andersen]

He. My guess is it'll wait till he actually becomes mayor on the 1st of January. But who knows?

[Joanna Coles]

So I loved all that. And I thought, surprising, we weren't expecting what we got, which is the art of the great producer, right. That you deliver a twist. And then I thought there was an element of game recognizing game.

[Kurt Andersen]

Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

They both know. And I thought whoever had taught Mamdani, and I don't know if this is his mother, Mira Nair, who's I think, a wonderful filmmaker, he just stood there holding his hand, which is actually what King Charles does. And the Royal Family is taught when you're standing there that you hold your fourth finger. And he just stood there and it was so calm. He wasn't fidgeting. He didn't look nervous. He didn't sound nervous. And you're like, wow, you're 34, you're new to this.

[Kurt Andersen]

Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

And he looked in control. And as you say, Trump looked small. He was looking up, which was bad. Sort of weird for Trump to be in that, because when Elon was standing there, you know, three or five months ago, he was sort of fidgeting and looking up to the sky and all that kind of stuff, and Trump looked in control. But here, you looked like the younger man was almost picking up the reins and moving to the next, you know, phase of American politics.

[Kurt Andersen]

Well, and the smile, the fond smile on Trump's face, one never sees that. He rarely laughs or actually smiles in a meaningful, you know, apparently authentic way. And he was. He seemed to be doing that, I mean, I don't know, holiday cheer. He got laid that morning. I don't know.

[Joanna Coles]

But, like, how would he get laid by.

[Kurt Andersen]

He does have a wife, but she's.

[Joanna Coles]

Not there very often.

[Kurt Andersen]

No, but they have some arrangement. I'm just speculating about why he's in such a good mood. The meds, I don't know. But the other thing that occurred to me, this kind of, and I think it could be true, which is he has become beloved by and of, you know, young, bearded Muslim guys in the Middle East. Right. I mean, that's, you know, and he's been hanging around with them, and they're giving him, you know, many hundreds of millions of billions of dollars, man. He's thinking, like, he may well say, yeah, these guys are okay. And, I don't know, they're supposedly bad guys, but I like them, they like me. I just. I mean, it sounds stupid and vaguely racist and all those things. Well, you know, it's Donald Trump. I think it may be part of it. Like, oh, yeah, this guy reminds me of some guy I met in Qatar. I don't know.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, very possibly. And also, I do think there is a sort of generational thing where. And I've noticed this in business actually, where men are incredibly competitive, but the older man, younger man dynamic is better than Trump sitting there with Macron or even, you know, the German chancellor, or Keir Starmer from the uk, where they're closer in age, that they still feel like they're doing this silverback thing. Whereas this is a grandfather reaching down to the Younger man saying, you know, you don't have to answer that question. I love to day.

[Kurt Andersen]

Yes, yes, yes, it was again, maybe it was only that one momentary pleasure of last Friday, but my gosh, it was, it was just remarkable. And I don't think, you know, we'll see. I don't think was purely a tactical showrunner choice, although it was that as well.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, well, and it's not mutually exclusive. Right. The, the other thing I thought was interesting was him and Trump kept saying, you know, New York's at a sort of pivotal moment. It could go well, it could go bad. And you felt actually he was genuinely interested in the city going, well, cuz he benefits from that.

[Kurt Andersen]

Yes, well, and the other thing I'm sure he had no idea about when Mamdani obviously told him, like, oh, you know, I want to make more housing, to make housing more affordable. And it won't all be social housing. There'll be private developers involved. And Trump I don't think probably said, mm, maybe I can get in on that.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm sure that's what he was. I literally thought that's what he's thinking. Oh, building projects for me.

[Kurt Andersen]

Yeah, yeah. So I think. But again, I think in his bubble where he just trucks in, you know, New York Post and Fox News headlines of the communists, the socialists, the whatever were all leaving New York, I think he was suddenly like, as we know, he agrees with the last guy he talked to repeatedly as a thing he does. Right. Well, he's just talked to this guy and the guy was nice to him and he's supposed to be a bad guy, but he was nice to me, so I like him. And by the way, Donald Trump has instincts, but no beliefs as we know, no ideology. So like, he doesn't care, you know, I mean, that's how he gets along with strongmen of every description is because he doesn't careokay. Maybe they kill a guy. Well, whatever that happens, you know, it's easier for him to get along with bad guys as he imagined Mamdani was, thanks to the daily front page of the New York Post for so long. So, you know, it's unlike his cult, unlike his true believers. He's a true believer in nothing.

[Joanna Coles]

Who has a true believer in nothing. That's a great line. Also, I thought Mamdani's discipline in coming back to the message of affordability, every single answer he did. And actually by the end of it, I was convinced that he believes in the affordability thing and that he trumped or he mumbled no Ma'. Am.

[Kurt Andersen]

Darling.

[Joanna Coles]

That. Right. But. But it's so hard not to be cynical about politicians.

[Kurt Andersen]

Oh, sure, sure.

[Joanna Coles]

But it was just masterful the way he brought it back. It was. I've not. I mean, you said you thought it was the most important performance you'd seen for 10 years. It's a masterclass in staying on message 100%.

[Kurt Andersen]

Which. Which is what he's done. Which is what he's done for again. It's only. He only started running, I don't know, 15 months ago. I mean, but he has done that so consistently, as everybody from James Carville to all these pros say, even if they don't consider themselves democratic socialists, says, I don't think James Carville does. But, like just the sheer staying on message but not seeming like a regular politician who just boringly stays on message.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Kurt Andersen]

He's amazing.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, he's going to love his hot wife. And I think Melania will like his hot wife and they can go off and do things together. Let's go have spa. Let's go have spa.

[Kurt Andersen]

That's very good.

[Joanna Coles]

Be best in spa. Let's go. Be best in spa. All right. So your great friend RFK Jr. Who stole his.

[Kurt Andersen]

Who I met once. Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. But you met him in a very interesting drug deal. For new listeners and new viewers, could you give an abbreviated version of your cocaine deal with him when you were both at Harvard? Because it was hugely popular last time you mentioned it.

[Kurt Andersen]

Well. And if you'd like the fuller version, Atlantic Monthly of September of 2024. I tell the story.

[Joanna Coles]

Although you don't have the bit about the straw.

[Kurt Andersen]

That was only for you. That was only for the Daily Beast.

[Joanna Coles]

And it got so many comments. People were repelled by the straw anecdote.

[Kurt Andersen]

Good.

[Joanna Coles]

Anyway.

[Kurt Andersen]

Anyway, I'd never bought or tried cocaine freshman year in college. Heard a lot about it back then in the early 70s, found out that Bobby Kennedy was the cocaine dealer of our class. So I don't know, I called a guy who called a guy, and there I was in his room with my roommate, consummating this drug deal for a gram of cocaine for $40. A lot of money in 1973 or whatever it was, and tried it. Looked at his phone book, found Pope Paul VI's phone number.

[Joanna Coles]

I love that. Okay, just so people understand, he went out to access his stash. He rifled through.

[Kurt Andersen]

He and his brother, Joe Kennedy iii, future congressman, went out to get his stash. Yes. When we just like, hey. And he invited us to, like, smoke as much Weed that he had sitting around on his backgammon board, as we'd like. And we saw this big address book and looked through it and saw these names of Kennedys and famous people and the then current pope.

[Joanna Coles]

So funny.

[Kurt Andersen]

Paul Viandwe wrote down thinking we'll make crank calls to the Vatican or something. I don't know what we thought. But anyway, it comes back, we try the coke, we pay him off, we go away. I had pocketed, inadvertently, the little piece of plastic, you know, dining hall straw with which we snorted the cocaine. And he called me at my dorm room 10 minutes later, angry, appalled, upset that I had taken his straw man. And I said, what? I didn't say, I'm new to this. What, okay, I'll bring it back. But I did, and he insisted and he was angry and he took it and he basically slammed the door on me. And he had this whole theory of why the straw was so important to him. Not lucky or anything, but that it had crystals growing in it was his theory of the case, which was some idea that cocaine grows in a crystalline form when it's mixed with mucus on the inside of a straw. I don't know. But that was his. That was the theory of the future chief medical science officer of the United States at the time.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and you didn't know at the time that he was also a poet, a fledgling poet, which we have learned this week because his digital girlfriend, Olivia Nuzzi, a former reporter at the Daily Beast, sadly, before my time, because she's a terrific writer, has a memoir coming out about their digital affair. And coincidentally, in a publishing bonanza for the women around RFK Jr. He, his wife, Cheryl Hines, the actress we know from Curb youb Enthusiasm, also has a memoir coming out. And I thought. And then, of course, the complicating factor is that Olivia Nuzzi's produced her book American Canto, and her ex fiance, Ryan Lisser, has now taken upon himself to write his version of their relationship. And I'm going to read you from his installments on Substack.

[Kurt Andersen]

And by the way, he, it should be noted, has been a senior respected journalist until.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, he was a political correspondent of the New York Times.

[Kurt Andersen]

I worked with him a little bit at New York Magazine back in the days. Yes, indeed. No, he's been around. And so they're both. I mean, these are not just, you know, random people who get into a scandalous set of.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and I can't help wondering, have they set all this up themselves? Is this because it looks as if Ryan Having read her book or at least had access to the episodes, has thought, well, this is not what happened. I'm going to write my truth as we refer to it these days, on their journey. Yeah, right, he's on their journey. But it feels as if perhaps he is really taking issue with her story. They could have concocted the whole thing. And it's a fake row playing out in public for us all to get very interested.

[Kurt Andersen]

I doubt that very much.

[Joanna Coles]

You think it's real?

[Kurt Andersen]

I do think it's real.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, so I'm going to read you. This is. Ryan has stumbled across some poetry that RFK Jr. Has sent to Olivia. I'm going to try and read it with a straight face. It's quite difficult and I will say I will probably 20 people sent me this over the weekend saying, have you read your open mouth awaiting my harvest Drink from me love. He continues, I mean to squeeze your cheeks to force open your mouth. Sounds really kind of fun, doesn't it? I'll hold your nose as you look up to me to encourage you to swallow. I don't know what he's referring to here. Don't spill a drop. I am a river, you are my canyon. I mean to flow through you. Oh, I mean to subdue and tame you, my love.

[Kurt Andersen]

Yeah, it's again, in terms of remarkable moments, I mean, what struck me, what struck me too is that my only relationship with him. I mean, I saw him around college and over time in New York and Santa Fe and elsewhere over the, you know, I've seen him, I've only encountered him and talked to him on that one time when I remember a freshman in college and the thing is he was a. That was reckless, committing a narcotics felony in 1973, selling cocaine. But he was reckless in general then and everyone I knew, many of his close friends and they were appalled by his recklessness. Driving, for instance, turning off the headlights at night and driving through tunnels and things like that. And so he was a reckless adolescent. Then this poem, you know, first of all, reckless because he's married and he's running for president and like dude, really, this is. But it's so a cringe in a particularly to me adolescent way this 70 year old man or whatever he was at the time writing this thing to this, you know, woman who's almost 40 years younger than he. So the romantic Y porn, you know, version of love poetry. I don't know. I mean, who am I to judge anybody of anything? However, it's just. Oh my God. Beyond just the embarrassment of, you know, revelations about one's sex life or non sex life or virtual sex life or postmodern adultery, whatever it is just the sheer awfulness of the poetry in its adolescent way is the thing that struck me. But then, you know, I pretend to be a writer and I guess Bobby, Bobby doesn't. He's just. He's just a romantic. He's just a Byronic figure.

[Joanna Coles]

He's just a Byronic figure with his eyes that Olivier calls blue as, I think blue as gas or blue as flame. Perhaps gas is less.

[Kurt Andersen]

Well, and he always got the girls. You know, this is, you know, to an extreme in, you know, famously now we know kind of sex addict way, sleeping with women in every stop along his various barnstorming tours of America.

[Joanna Coles]

As an activist, as an activist, the thing I find strange about it is the. Is the violence in it. You know, holding your nose, squeezing your cheeks, I mean, to subdue and tame you 100%.

[Kurt Andersen]

Which again, like, I mean, an adolescent might not dare to do. An adolescent who', swho, unlike people 50 years ago, has seen a lot of porn, might be inspired to have this violent porn, like, you know, fantasy encounter with this woman. But, yeah, no, I agree. I mean, short of. And then I will strike you and punch you or something. I mean, it was hideous and exactly that, you know. You know, yes, practically death dealing descriptions of this.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and also to your point about recklessness, he's sending it to a journalist who's profiling him and who is engaged to another journalist. I got a very interesting note from a viewer. Dmitry, thank you. Who has created. I didn't fully understand what it was, but it was a sort of AI. Informational thing that focuses on what voters respond to. And his point was that in the age of where porn is available to everybody, people were actually impressed and rather envious of Donald Trump's romantic life. So his affair with Stormy Daniels, they sort of understood and forgave his cheating on Marla Maples with Melania, they understood and forgave. They totally understood why he had an affair with Marla Maples when he was married to Ivana. And that sense of, oh, actually this is impressive, and it's actually a qualifying factor. It's disqualifying in the way it used to be.

[Kurt Andersen]

Well, and I first noted that when I wrote this piece for the New Yorker in 1998, called the Entertainer in pegged to Bill Clinton and his then Monica Lewinsky scandal, and seeing it as part of a history of this turning of presidential politics into a subset of show business. Right. And what I noted is that his approval ratings went up during this thing because, oh yeah, Bubba. Bubba's a dirty guy. Getting it like we all want to, you know, I mean, so I really think it humanized him. And again, as I said in that piece, made the, you know, was a great plot twist for the new season of Clinton.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Kurt Andersen]

You know, as he was about to be reelected, you know, so it hasthere is a history of this, of presidential, you know. Oh, no, we like that. We like that in a man, you know.

[Joanna Coles]

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[Joanna Coles]

And I'm back with Kurt Anderson discussing, well, just discussing the weirdness of this moment and of Donald Trump. It's so interesting. And then we have at the same time, unscripted By Cheryl Hines, Mrs. Robert F. Kennedy. Mrs. Robert F. Kennedy. Yes, his third wife, whose story begins, of course, in small town Florida and unfolds across the glittering stages of Hollywood and right into the heart of the Kennedy family and a presidential campaign. And then a bit further down, I'm reading from the Amazon description of her book that the publishers have put out. Cheryl navigates the highs and lows of fame, family and an unexpected foray into politics, complete with twists and no one saw coming. Indeed. Indeed. So do we think, are you going to be buying which book is going to sell better, the wife's book or the digital mistress?

[Kurt Andersen]

Well, I can't. I mean, if I had to bet, I would say Olivia Nizzi's book will sell better. You know, I mean, no one would buy Charles Heinz's book were it not for this business. And the fact that Bobby Kennedy is now this, you know, loved and loathed figure and all that, I don't know and I don't honestly care. But I personally, partly because I'm an acquaintance of Olivia Nazis and partly because she's had, as you said earlier, she is a good writer and an amazing reporter. Now, from what I've seen of this, of this excerpt that I read in Vanity Fair, of the book, you know, we all those of us who are writers and there are certain things we are better at than others And I'm not sure this kind of revelatory romantic memoir is necessarily her forte, but we'll see. I haven't read it yet. I've only read bits of it.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I read bits of it and I wasn't expecting to like it. And I did like it, and I thought perhaps I should do a short reading. Please, can I do that?

[Kurt Andersen]

Please?

[Joanna Coles]

I mean, what's in.

[Kurt Andersen]

Shall I snap my fingers and, I don't know, play the bongos as you do this?

[Joanna Coles]

Well, we could do a kind of musical interpretation of it. I mean, there's quite an interesting. I mean, given Robert Kennedy Jr. S background, it's quite an interesting paragraph. I would take a bullet for you. The politician said. He always said that. Please don't say that. I said ways said that. So clearly a conversation they had a lot of. From his mouth, the bullet. Theoretical launched the bullet. Possible. I did not like to think about it, about the armed men at his speech, or the armed man who broke into his home, or the armed man he paid to guard him from armed men who sought to harm him while the federal government denied his pleas for protection from the security agency whose modern protocols were carved by the same bullet that cut boughs from his family tree and cut the track of the American experiment.

[Kurt Andersen]

Yeah, it's interesting. I just started reading this new piece in the Atlantic about Kennedy.

[Joanna Coles]

10,000 words.

[Kurt Andersen]

Michael Sher.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. But 10,000 words long. Otherwise I would have already read it.

[Kurt Andersen]

Yes, indeed.

[Joanna Coles]

It dropped this morning, and we're recording this on Monday morning.

[Kurt Andersen]

Yes, and it leads with Scherer, the reporter, being with Robert Kennedy on a military helicopter as he is told by an assistant about the murder of Charlie Kirk, his friend Charlie Kirk. And, you know, given again, the Kennedy history of assassination. You know, Scherer is struck by this and uses it as his incident in his lead. But he is struck by the absolute equanimity of Bobby Kennedy as he learns this. He goes, oh, my God. But then he, you know, he. And it's interesting. I mean, you know, he is a human being and he's had. Had these horrible things happen when he was a child, you know, and now he's running for president. And, you know, you do wonder. I mean, again, I think of him as both as a human being and as, you know, I write fiction as a fictional character kind of, and like the combination, whatever world he's in as a result of having been the nephew and son of these murdered, you know, political heroes of people. And now he's doing. Now he. In his World turned upside down way. Becoming a candidate in political life, running for office and you know, making people hate him and love him. You know, he, in his way, of course, you know, fulfilled his destiny in this twisted way. And so maybe, you know, in his. Again in his. Not to just reduce everything to the brain worm, but it's shorthand, brain wormy, you know, started taking acid at age 14, which is also a reported way. Maybe he just thinks of himself as this character who is destined for tragedy or something, I don't know. Or maybe he's just a sociopath who doesn't really care about his best friend getting killed. I don't know. But it is the thing about him. And we're, of course we've elided and left out the horrible stuff he is doing to American science and American public health.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. I mean, which is really the point.

[Kurt Andersen]

Which is really the point. And again, you know, yeah, he was a drug dealer. That's how I met him. And he then endorsed a guy who was campaigning, Donald Trump on the expeditious, almost extrajudicial execution of any drug dealers. He really, he campaigned on that and now he's sort of making good on that in the killing almost 100 people at this point just rent, you know, supposed drug traffickers in these 20 odd boats. But so there's that. Oh my God, drugs, they're evil. Yeah, sure they are. And Bobby Kennedy experienced them as evil, but he was a drug dealer and you know, under the.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and a drug addict for many years, a heroin addict and a drug addict.

[Kurt Andersen]

But even worse of course potentially is what the damage he is doing to this incredible public health medical research system that the United States is at the center of in the world. And so the misplaced horror about the problem of drugs in this case is this kind of tragic irony.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and also that they're also restricting or I think actually stopping the Narcon program which has been really effective in stopping people dying from opiate overdoses.

[Kurt Andersen]

No, and one would again, as I said in that piece, saying this guy sold me drugs and now he's endorsing this guy. And it's just one example of the crazy hypocrisy of him in his desire and need and yearning for addiction to perhaps attention is. So somebody should ask him, what do you think of your man campaigning to execute all drug dealers like they do in China? Right away again in this, these things like, ok, you have had this experience of miserable opioid addiction for more than a decade. What do you think about getting rid of this stuff, Mr. Secretary of Health and Human Services. It's again, the.

[Joanna Coles]

Well and the damage he's done with his vaccine conspiracy theories too. I mean, you know, measles making a resurgence in various places.

[Kurt Andersen]

All of it, all of it.

[Joanna Coles]

It's inconceivable that he should be doing that job. And yet there he is.

[Kurt Andersen]

Yeah, well, and that's a whole other discussion in which I, you know, and it gets back to both in a certain way, the Mamdani charisma thing. Because of course Kennedys have this charisma now, you know, 75 year old inherited charisma, but there it is. And you know, Jack Schlossberg. Yeah, let's talk about Jack Schlossberg, you know, is running for Congress, one of I don't know, a dozen people running for Congress in this Manhattan district. Because he's a Kennedy. Because he's whatever, third generation, fourth generation Kennedy and is good looking and, and it's a kind of to me, you know, a rotten charisma in a way. I mean, nothingno reflection on Jack Schlossberger when he was attacking hisbobby Kennedy and all that. It was amusing and good and I'm glad. All the ways that his cousins and relatives found to say he's bad and he shouldn't be elected to anything.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and his mom did, right? Caroline Kennedy.

[Kurt Andersen]

Indeed, indeed. And his cousins. And that's all fine, but this like, why are we paying attention to Jack Schlossberg? I mean, to the degree and why and really, really, you're going to run for the House of Representatives and you were just, you know, a struggling actor five minutes ago and that's your experience except for being a Kennedy. And so as opposed to, you know, genuine, earned, astonishing charisma of a kind, I'm sure. You know, no, Zorami is not a war hero, but he, like Jack Kennedy in the day, or maybe more aptly like Bobby Kennedy, you know, had peopleit was genuinely politically potent, not just some dynastic inheritance like these entitled people have as Bobby Kennedy had.

[Joanna Coles]

Frankly, who can forget the video that Caroline Kennedy put out where she talked about RFK Jr. When they were younger doing smoothies for his snakes of live creatures in the basement. And her describing him as this dark character, this really dark negative character, and.

[Kurt Andersen]

Turning her turning other cousins of hers and brothers of his, as she accused him in that video, into addicts.

[Joanna Coles]

Right, right, absolutely. So her son, Jack Schlossberg, running for Jerry Nadler's old seat. Does it help him that his name is Schlossberg, or should he be calling himself Schlossberg Kennedy or Kennedy Schlossberg? I mean, because he's got the benefit of being a Kennedy. But alas, without the name recognition so on the ballot form, people might not know who he is.

[Kurt Andersen]

They might not. And, you know, I mean, I don't think that's going to be work one way or the other. I mean, the people in this, you know, maybe the densest congressional district in America, in the middle of Manhattan, people will know that this is. Oh, this is the Kennedy kid, right? This is the Kennedy kid.

[Joanna Coles]

The Kennedy kid.

[Kurt Andersen]

So, I mean, if his name were. I mean, he can't do that. He can't start calling himself Kennedy Schlossberg, I don't think. But I don't know, he should go back to being, whatever, an influencer, I think. And to me, it's the, you know, it's the, you know, when you try to get too many cups of tea out of a tea bag, you're English, you know these things. It's like exactly what we do. This is like the eighth cup, you know, in the third generation.

[Joanna Coles]

So there's almost no flavor left.

[Kurt Andersen]

Well, no flavor and no need to exist. As opposed to, you know, young politicians who are earnestly committed to helping people and who, yes, had a famous movie director, somewhat famous movie director as his mother, but is a whole different, you know, is a kind of charisma that is genuinely inspiring as opposed to, oh, yeah, he's sexy, he's glamorous. I'm not saying. And I don't want to slag all Kennedys. I Knew John Kennedy Jr. A little and spent time with him and, you know, talked to him when he was starting a magazine, gave him whatever advice I had to give. And he was. He was great and unentitled seeming, of course, entitled. He wouldn't have been able to do what he did without being the son of the president. But so, you know, you know, it's notit's. Not. Not every Kennedy child and grandchild is a loser at all. Many of them are great and trying to do good things in the world.

[Joanna Coles]

And of course, Caroline's other child, Tatiana, daughter, wrote a devastating essay in the New Yorker this week describing the fact that she's very ill and has been given a year to live, which is tragic. And I think she's also 34. Yeah.

[Kurt Andersen]

Very talented writer.

[Joanna Coles]

Fantastic writer. Right. She's a journalist, an environmental journalist. And also sounding off against her uncle because she's. Because she's gone through extensive chemo. She has to have more vaccinations and she's now anxious. She can't get the vaccinations because of her uncle.

[Kurt Andersen]

Right. And you know, has, you know, immuno issues and all these things that his wreckage at the Health and Human Services and the nih, even worse perhaps, probably would make her less likely to live. And so. No, that' sit's true and damning and you know, frankly, more whatever suitable, appropriate than what perhaps her brother Jack is doing by saying we need more countercultural people in the Democratic Party. Or one of the things he said. Anyway, no, she is. It's horrible and tragic and she is doing her very best to use this unfortunate piece of notoriety she's gotten.

[Joanna Coles]

Kurt, we're taking a quick break for some messages.

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[Joanna Coles]

And I'm back with Kurt Anderson discussing the madness of America. I mean, a lot of people are saying, especially with the Epstein files, that Trump now suddenly seems weaker. He's in a lame duck period earlier than perhaps one might have expected. But the election results for the Democrats a couple of weeks ago sort of make him look more vulnerable. Marjorie Taylor Greene is leaving.

[Kurt Andersen]

Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

Do we think as people begin to circle Trump, who feels to me a bit like a wounded bull. I don't know if you've ever been to a bullfight, but there's that awful moment where the bull is suddenly wounded and he's kind of stumbling around. And there's a feeling, I think, of Trump, which we saw in the Mamdani press conference, of a new generation coming through. And the point I'm getting to is the assumption has always been, I think, that J.D. vance or Marco Rubio are probably the most likely to inherit the MAGA base and yet actually unlikely as it seems, RFK Jr feels like he's obviously going to run a lot of the MAGA base. Love what he's doing with his vaccine skepticism. Do you think he could ever actually become president?

[Kurt Andersen]

God almighty. I've not even spent a second contemplating that. I mean, you know, given everything of the last several years, you sort of don't want to say no, that's impossible. I would, I would if I were in, you know, in the betting markets. I wouldn't bet on that happening. And I don'tand, you know, depending on the degree to which the Republican Party, absent Donald Trump at its head, will split up, divide, you know, kind of betray its own absolute incoherence at this point. You know, anything's possible in that sense. And that's the thing, you know, I mean, for the last 10 years now, what the Republican Party has done ideologically is adapt to whatever this person with no real beliefs or principles or ideology has instincts about or, you know, wants his vanity, you know, stroked for. I mean, it is all about how do we obey and please and not anger Donald Trump and get him on our wrong side and primary us and purge us from the party. So they haven't spent, you know, any real time that the Democrats have been doing for now a year of saying, ok, what are we about again? Let's figure out what we're supposed to be doing. What kind of what do we believe in? I thought we were against Russia, but no. So as soon as Trump, assuming he doesn't runtry to run again, and he's gone. And he is indeed the lame duck that he seems to be incrementally more and more each day that awaits. Right. Because there is no replacement for Donald Trump in terms of the singular sui generis, like, you know, superhero demigod quality that Donald Trump really is. And one has to admit it, he is not just a once a generation character, he's one of these one or two or three people in a century character of his, you know, extraordinary powers. So that just won't happen. And so, I don't know, once, you know, so I mean, you know, is it a Marjorie Taylor Greene party? Is it a Bobby Kennedy party? Is it a J.D. vance party? You know, I mean, and again, we are now in a time when it seems as though people with a certain amount of outsiderdom, charisma, pre marketed fame, Donald Trump or whomever, you don't get elected just by reading the script. We saw that with Ron DeSantis miserable failure to become elected president. J.D. vance, eh, I mean, yeah, sure he reads the script and he'll say anything and do anything to get along but the sense of authenticity that for better and mostly worse Donald Trump has is just not there or you know, so Bobby Kennedy maybe, but I just don't see, you know, most of Donald Trump's voters, some of them are these so called maha voters who like, you know. Yeah. Are skeptical of vaccines and you know, all mainstream medical wisdom and everything else. But that's not why he gotthat's not why, you know, it's a part of the coalition, but it is not the coalition. And, and you know, so I find that highly unlikely that Bobby Kennedy, that he makes it.

[Joanna Coles]

What about Marjorie Taylor Greene? You said that, you know, the Republicans have been beaten into submission by Trump. Who'll primary them, who'll turn against them. She says that she spent millions of her own dollars campaigning for him. She'd been elected five years ago. She is resigning so that she, she leaves two days after her congressional pension kicks in. Good job, Marjorie.

[Kurt Andersen]

Even though she's only been there, what, four years?

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, yeah, so do we. Five years, I think so do we think thatwell. Why do we think she's resigning now?

[Kurt Andersen]

Well, you know, she's a politician, so maybe she has a bigger picture in mind of leading this new post Trump movement. But my inclination, because I have my little Pollyanna Hart that believes in sincerity of some people, I believe I was. So I listened to her, who all of her and read all of her things and, you know, I think she's a true moggin, which is to say sincere about her delusions. Yeah, sure she is. You know, she is a politician. She got elected. She understands that she's not. And she, oh, you know, back in the beginning of her career in the House, she understood like, oh, I can work with Kevin McCarthy and I'll sort of join this new establishment as this ultimate Republican political hack. Kevin McCarthy embraces me. Great. So she's not, you know, dope, but again, she's new to politics and this sense of like, her disillusionment about like, ah, they're just guys in suits. They don't really believe this stuff. I don't know, struck me as authentic and genuine. So we'll see. I mean, she may just like go off and, you know, get more CrossFit and have a life in Northern Georgia or. The reason she was able to give millions of dollars to other Republicans is because she's an incredible fundraiser.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Kurt Andersen]

And is, you know, she is a true Moggan and as you know, you know, 10 years in as Donald Trump just does nothing but, you know, dine with billionaires, either, you know, Saudi and Gulf State billionaires or US Billionaires and, you know, let them eat cake to the rest and is not America first in any sense of the meaning of that idea. You know, she may be the leading edge of like, the people opening their eyes and seeing the reality and they're not so deeply in the culture, even though she was literally in the cult of QAnon, that they can't like, finally wake up and go, yeah, this guy is not it. We're moving on. He can't run again. You know, I mean, so.

[Joanna Coles]

And she has two daughters in their 20s, both of whom are going to see their health premiums rise considerably, probably double or possibly triple. So that also brings it home. I don't understand how Republicans like Marjorie Taylor Greenery thought that they could sign up to the big beautiful bill, kick the premium, the health premiums down the road and not be expected to get kicked out in the next in the midterms. I just don't understand. Doesn't matter if they send a $2,000 check if your premiums are doubling, that's literally lived experience of more money every single month that you are spending for the same thing.

[Kurt Andersen]

Right. And this ongoing absolute insecurity of will I have it next year, what will happen, what's going to happen? And you know, and people say this obvious thing, but it's really true, is that, well, congressmen, congresspeople never have to worry about health care. They're going to have it as long as they get elected.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Kurt Andersen]

Which is another reason that makes them more like unaccountably desperate to get reelected at all costs. Probably. But you know, there are those like the real just pure cynics like Josh Hawley who are playing at being the true working man's friend and breaking with the Republican Party here and there on union representation and things. And I hate that we're raising health care, but I voted for it. Yeah. But I'm going to try to get, you know, so he is the trying to have it both ways.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. As he walks past January 6th with.

[Kurt Andersen]

His raised all of that, but trying to be the man of the working house. But it's interesting when again, not to bring everything back to Mamdani and Trump, but when Trump has said now during that meeting with Mamdani and since like, you know, Bernie Sanders and I actually have a lot of things in common and a lot of his voters were for me. And that's all true. Right. And people forget and I've never forgotten his final big two minute ad in his first campaign in 2016, which was could have literally been a Bernie Sanders campaign commercial.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Kurt Andersen]

You know, it was about Wall street and how they're ruining your town and they're taking your jobs away and they're destroying the small businesses and on and on and you know, on and on. And so, you know, of course he didn't govern that way and never has. And he's governed as a traditional Republican rich guy. We don't want taxes, we don't want regulation guy. But he has that's part of how he got elected. That's part of how he convinced this, you know, white working class, part of his key part of his coalition to vote for him in 2016. Like, oh, he'll mix it up. He's not a regular Republican. He's finally one of these national Washington politicians, cares about us and really sees us and speaks to us. Well, you know, and there are all kinds of ways that people then begin justifying loving him. But I don't know. And the cult will be the Cult. And it will have. It may be down to 23% at some point, but he will have that. But the other half, let's say, of the 49.5% of people who voted for him last year, you know, are, you know, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, who was, as she herself said, I worked hard for him, I believed in him and like. And now I'm disillusioned. I don't know. I don't think she's a, you know, unique figure in his electorate.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

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[Joanna Coles]

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[Kurt Andersen]

Yes. And as you say, I think the children's thing and the children having to pay, you know, whatever. They're having to pay twice what they're paying for health care is a real thing. And you know, yes, she is enough of a real person of the people and not just pretending or not once was. She's still there, you know, for all of her skill and success as a political figure in the party. So we'll see.

[Joanna Coles]

You'll have to come back and we'll do a deeper dive on Marjorie Taylor Greene and what she's up to and whether or not she, you know, joins Erica Kirk and the Republican Party falls into the grip of two blonde women.

[Kurt Andersen]

Yes. Or speaking of blonde women, Robert Kennedy Jr. The Bobby Marjorie ticket.

[Joanna Coles]

Bobby Marjorie ticket. Oh, my goodness. Bobby. And of course, that would be very appealing, I think, to people.

[Kurt Andersen]

No. And to the degree, Marjorie, in the horseshoe theory where there is this, you know, as Steve Bannon has been like, oh, no, we're about the working people. We're about giving them. Yes. Making sure they have health care like all of the far right parties of Europe do.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Kurt Andersen]

You know, I mean, the horseshoe. That would be an example of the ultimate realization of the so called horseshoe theory of politics where the left and right.

[Joanna Coles]

Right join together.

[Kurt Andersen]

Joined together at a certain point.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, my goodness. Marjorie Taylor Greene, the Bobby and the Marjorie ticket. That has given me something to think about. It's like a spy headline.

[Kurt Andersen]

Well, there you go. Yes, yes, it is.

[Joanna Coles]

It seems unbelievable. An RFK Jr. MTG ticket. And yet the minute Kurt said it, I could sort of see it. Oh, my goodness. Well, leave us a comment on what you think. Is that, is that even plausible? Is it even feasible? And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Join the Daily Beast community on the podcast and you get tons of extra content. And don't forget, be beast. And thank you to our beast tier of readers who are Herbie, Andrew Mellor, Fulvia, Orlando, Laz, Conde, Sandra Clark, Karen White Bocock, D.C. val Love, Francisco Bonzo, M. Griner, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley and Andrea Hodel. And thanks to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Erson and our editor Jesse Millwood.

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