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- [00:00]
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- [00:31]
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- [01:31]
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- [02:32]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
You said, really? The presidency is a spin off of the Apprentice. And I thought, what a great way to look at it and try and understand what he's doing.
- [02:44]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
What does he see himself as? Does he see himself as a politician? Does he see himself as a historical figure? Does he see himself as a dictator? No, he sees himself as a star. Television saves Donald Trump and reinvents Donald Trump.
- [03:10]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Michael. Joanna, so we have something slightly different today, which is we're going to do a theme.
- [03:19]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Okay.
- [03:21]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Okay. And our theme is.
- [03:23]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
I know the theme, so you know.
- [03:25]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
The theme, but I'm, I'm letting.
- [03:26]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
You're not springing it on me.
- [03:27]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Okay, well, I'm telling the viewers the.
- [03:30]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Theme, because unless you spring an entirely different theme on me.
- [03:36]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Well, I could do. I should have done that just to. Just to surprise you. I mean, one of the ways that we try and cover things differently from the way that politics is normally covered is because we, we see Trump as a media creation and a master manipulator, a genius manipulator of television. And what we wanted to do is talk about his operating system, which is television.
- [04:02]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Yes. And not only, not only a master manipulator, or maybe this is saying the same thing. He's a performer.
- [04:10]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
He's a performer.
- [04:11]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
And even to understand him, it's really more helpful to think of him in terms of being an actor than in terms of being a politician. I mean, in his courtship of the audience, in his own egomania, in his desire for attention. And let's, you know. And I always come back to the baseline, that first interview I did with Trump in the spring of 2016, when it still seemed far fetched that he would become the President of the United States. And I said, why are you doing this? And he said, without missing a beat, and as though this was perfect, a perfectly normal goal, he said, to become the most famous man in the world. So I think that is always the point of departure. And his understanding, accurate understanding of the chief mechanism of fame is television and the television audience.
- [05:25]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Well. And you came up with a brilliant line as we were discussing how we were going to approach this subject this morning. And this was before, I believe you'd had any coffee or indeed, possibly breakfast. You said, really? The presidency is a spin off of the Apprentice. And I thought, what a great way to look at it and try and understand what he's doing. And the fact that his policy comes from television. He's just watching himself on television all day and then making up policy on the Hoof. In terms of what keeps the audience engaged, it's like cliffhanger after cliffhanger.
- [06:05]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
And curiously, his chief source of communication is with the television itself. So in 2017, when the first Trump administration began, and that was an interesting moment, unlike this term, because he went in with a whole group of people who didn't really know him. I mean, fundamentally, he had only two political friends in life, and that was Rudy Giuliani and Chris Christie, the former governor of New Jersey, who he shortly fell out with. But he didn't know anybody else. He once said to me that he had spent, at this point in his life, he was 70 years old. He had only ever spent, spent 17 days. I don't know how he knew this, and given Trump, I'm sure it was a made up number, but he did say, I've only spent 17 days in Washington. And so the people around him didn't know what to make of him. So it was a learning process. And I was on site then. So talking to all of these people and their observations were, as the weeks went on, is that it was a problem. I mean, the presidency is the problem was among the most information intensive jobs on earth. And that was a problem because he didn't, he didn't read anything. Nothing. Literally zero.
- [07:43]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
So he put all those beautiful briefings, people spend hours preparing, none of them got right.
- [07:47]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
And he would wave them away. He had a gesture, wave, wave, wave it away. And they thought, okay, well, let's deliver it in one page. No, too much. Let's deliver it in a paragraph. Too much. He didn't want it.
- [08:00]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
I'm sympathetic.
- [08:01]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
That was a problem. But then the other problem compounding this one, is that while he didn't read, he didn't listen either.
- [08:09]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Right.
- [08:10]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
So there was fundamentally, and the people around him learning this on a real time basis, there was just no way to get him information until they figured out that the way to get him in information and in effective way was through the television.
- [08:31]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Okay, Michael, Michael, hold that thought. Hold that thought. Because I've just realized for new people joining this podcast, they may not understand what you mean when you say you were on site. So I'm just reminding people that I'm the Chief content Officer of the Daily Beast and you have written four books on Donald Trump since he became president. And your first one, Fire and Fury, was written after you spent seven months in the White House. You joined them at the beginning and had a front row seat to the madness. Exactly, exactly. Please continue. If you can remember where we were.
- [09:08]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Yes, so it was this. He didn't read, he didn't listen, but you could talk to him through the television. And at that moment, that became an interesting process that everybody had to basically have a relationship with the people at Fox News. And the people at Fox News would then echo what the White House wanted them to say so that Trump would hear this and he would listen and appreciate and understand because it was on television. So there's this, you know, a circle, a very closed circle was being created. He was running a White House that was largely a. Reality television show, and the television itself was supplying him with much of the script for this show.
- [10:08]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And is it. I mean, many people have speculated that the reason that he doesn't read is because he's dyslexic. Have we discovered any evidence of that? Or does he just prefer television as a medium? I mean, why doesn't he read briefings?
- [10:23]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Well, I don't know. Probably because, I mean, there was always a discussion in the White House. Was he dyslexic? Was he semi literate? I mean, no one, no one really knew this. Now, a curious, curious things. So Roger Ailes, who founded Fox News and was its. Was its chairman for 20 years, the person who created Fox News, and in his own way, the person who certainly contributed mightily to the creation of Donald Trump and who was a very close friend of Trump's. Having said that, you know, I was also friendly with Ailes, and as it became more and more likely that Trump would be president, Ailes was himself more and more aghast. But he once described Trump to me as that kid whose parents never pulled him away from the television. So he grew up just glued to the television at all times, not doing anything else, not doing, not paying attention to his schoolwork, not doing his homework, not really having friends, just glued to the television.
- [11:47]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
It reminds me a little bit of those. When I was growing up, there was a film called l' enfant Sauvage, the Savage Child, about a French child who'd grown up in a forest in the south of France. And he was feral. He was completely feral. And this reminds me of the idea that you can be feral in a culture like ours, where all you watch is television. I mean, it effectively becomes your parent, it becomes your entertainment center, it becomes your friend, and you have an extension of it. I will tell you, I was watching the series, I binged watched the series of the Pit, which is a wonderful show on HBO about being in an er, an enormous urgency. And I came in and I thought Our newsroom needs to be more like the pit. Not with people coming in with limbs hanging off, but just the speed and energy that the pit has. You feel like newsrooms should have that. All right, I've digressed, but you get my point.
- [12:46]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
I don't exactly get your point, but that's okay.
- [12:49]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
I think it's about the influence of television and how, how it embeds itself and certain narratives embed themselves and the structure of good television shows embed themselves.
- [13:00]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
I see, but you did have to clarify that point. Yes.
- [13:02]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Okay, sorry.
- [13:03]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Thank you.
- [13:03]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
All right. I think what I'm talking about there.
- [13:07]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Is this other aspect of Trump. It's not only television, but he really is, in his personality really exists in old fashioned television. So it's really a three network world, and it's a world in which those shows from that time still speak most clearly to him. You know, during the, during his trial in New York where he was convicted, by the way, we forget this just, just faded away some, somehow. He's 34, convicted on 34 felony accounts. But, but pay no mind to that. But during that trial and he was in the, in the breakout room, I mean, he's always upbraiding his lawyers, yelling at them, telling them how to do their jobs.
- [14:07]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Let's just remind ourselves who his lawyers were. Todd Blanche. Right. Wasn't he one of the lawyers?
- [14:13]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Exactly.
- [14:13]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Now, number two at the Justice Department, Elena Hubba, who's just being tossed as U.S. attorney from New Jersey.
- [14:22]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Right. And then that other guy who was, who now his name. I can't.
- [14:26]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Emile Beauvais.
- [14:28]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Oh, thank you so much.
- [14:29]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And I think Lindsey Halligan. Wasn't Lindsey Halligan hanging around.
- [14:34]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
No, she was, she was so not taken seriously that she was not even in there. So the idea that she was his personal lawyer is really not exactly true.
- [14:47]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Okay, well, anyway, she just got tossed out of, out of Virginia. And Emile Beauvais is number three at the Justice Department, I believe.
- [14:54]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
No, no, he's, he's, he's now a federal judge.
- [14:58]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Oh, he's a federal judge. Okay. Good for a meal. Good for a meal.
- [15:02]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
So at any rate, and at, at a moment, a, you know, a difficult moment in the trial when the lawyers weren't doing anything. Right. Trump lined them up and then, and he said, he said, kind of leaning in and with it, with that kind of, he has this real kind of mean, I mean, it's scary. And he said, have you ever heard of a man by the name of Perry Mason? Now, for several generations of people who, who who, who may be listening to this podcast? Perry Mason was, Was a hit show in the late 1950s, mid six, up through the mid-60s, a lawyer, a television lawyer who won every case. And, and Trump would, when went on with this, do you know what Perry would do? Tell me, what would Perry do? And these lawyers are, you know, I mean, all of them. I wouldn't say they're A plus lawyers, but sort of, you know, B, lawyers who have long careers are kind of quaking in their boots. What would Perry do? But again, this is pure television. And he saw his lawyers as, as they, you know, the truth about lawyers are when lawyers are in court, they're, you know, they're, they're not that articulate. They're kind of, they kind of stumble around. They're kind of normal people. Whereas television lawyers are, of course, because someone has written their script, the most articulate people on earth. And that's what Trump wanted. He wanted television lawyers. Yeah, because his entire reference, everything is about television. And let's just go back to the baseline here. The baseline of Donald Trump is that he was the star of a reality television show, top rated reality television show for 14 years. He understood the craft of being a television performer.
- [17:21]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
He wants Atticus.
- [17:22]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
No, he doesn't want Atticus Finch. That's a, That's a literary character. What he wants is.
- [17:29]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
I thought he wanted Atticus Finch from the movie.
- [17:34]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Possibly, but even was he. I mean, he wants Perry Mason. He wants the guy who goes in and wins every case. You know, and this is out of. I mean, he wants, he wants Roy Cohn, who he elevated to the guy who has won every case. But it always is. He sees this just in terms of performance.
- [18:00]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Well, he's always referencing Johnny Carson, too. And I think, gosh, even half his viewers can't remember Johnny Carson at this point. But it's as if television stopped for him when Johnny Carson was on. And then, of course, it started again when he went on television as the anchor of or the host of, or the star, more importantly, of the Apprentice.
- [18:24]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Right. And also the, you know, cable, I think, started to speak to him in a fairly precise way. I mean, first thing, he was always on Fox, always a call in to Fox, you know, a kind of recurring character in Fox News. But also the idea of cable, remember, cable is a much more. Is much more come as you are, than network television was.
- [18:56]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Well, you can freestyle on cable in a way you can't with network television. And he's good at that.
- [19:01]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Right. Not, not as much on cable as you can freestyle in, on, on podcasts and YouTube. But it's all a progression. And he understood that, that progression. So it was. The more he could be, the more he could be Donald Trump, the more that was effective in a, In a cable sense.
- [19:27]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Well, and he also had, I think it's worth pointing out, he had Roger Ailes and then he also had Jeff Z. Zucker, who was head of cnn, who also gave him an incredible platform.
- [19:39]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Right. Well, actually, actually, Jeff Zucker was the head of NBC. So that was the pivotal moment.
- [19:48]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Okay, but then he, But Jeff Zucker then continued to CNN where they, well, they were.
- [19:55]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
But go, but go back, because I think this is, this is, this is important here. So Jeff Zucker is the head of NBC. Jeff Zucker greenlights the Apprentice. So they are in business together and they become very good friends. Actually, this is something that is sort of, sort of washed out of the Trump story, that Jeff Zucker and his wife and Trump and Melania were a kind of social foursome. They were, you know, I mean, I mean, Trump was. Zucker was the network executive. Trump was the network star. What. That's just a, you know, the, It's.
- [20:43]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
A natural relationship, right? The network, the head of the network sucks up to their main stars.
- [20:49]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
And then curiously, I mean, that would break down because Jeff Zucker then went to CNN and Trump became the antagonist to cnn. But when, early in my discussions with Trump and Trump, part of my attraction to Trump or part of his identification of me is that I wrote a column about the media for New York Magazine and then Vanity Fair. So there was a thing, this was one of his, one of his central topics. I remember the first time I interviewed Trump in his political life, which was in, in the spring of 2 of 2016. Part of what he wanted to talk about is how he knew all of the moguls. Sumner Redstone. Love Sumner Redstone. Rupert Murdoch. And I was Murdoch's biographer from Bob Iger at Disney. He, he knew, he knew everybody and was incredibly proud of this. So we, in this, we would have these discussions about these media people. But one of the things that he was focused on is this claim of his that he got Jeff Zucker his job at cnn and, and he, he, I mean, this is not true, by the way, but nevertheless, he had a sequence. I met so and so at a dinner party. I sat next to him and he didn't. They were looking for a new CNN chief. I suggested Jeff Zucker. He said, no, we don't want Zucker. I said, this is, you Got to rethink this. This is. He had a whole kind of, kind of thing in which he positioned himself as the central, as the central broker in this, in the relationship between CNN and Jeff Zucker as the king maker. Yes. And which led to this idea that Jeff Zucker had betrayed him. Because when Jeff Zucker, Jeff Zucker at cnn, they, Trump became, became, became certainly a useful foil for their ratings. They became effectively an anti Trump channel. So which. And then Trump, of course, turned CNN into a character in the White House reality show, constantly calling out CNN reporters, constantly criticizing Jeff Zucker. Again, If Trump was CNN's foil, CNN became his foil. But the issue here is not politics. It's television.
- [23:48]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
It's television. And I think what's so interesting about this is how difficult it is for institutions to fight back against that performance, power. It's hard for them. It's a thing, theatrical performance. It bears almost no relationship to the truth and what's actually going on. And America's institutions have been used to, you know. Well, just compare the world of television.
- [24:23]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
There are two parallel worlds here.
- [24:25]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Right.
- [24:26]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
And you know, politics was not television. Yes. Politicians had to figure out how to use television and to manage television.
- [24:35]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And in fact, it was deadly television because you had C Span. And the minute you saw a politician, I mean, you know, nobody was watching C Span. It was only other politicians watching C Span.
- [24:46]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Well, that was, I mean, C span over there. But politicians, I mean, that, that sort of misstates it because, you know, politicians have used television on a. I mean, since jfk, if you couldn't use television, you were going to be a significantly less successful politician.
- [25:05]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Of course, but no one had figured how to do it like he did.
- [25:10]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
No one has figured out the more fundamental thing. No politician would think that politics was televised.
- [25:17]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Exactly. That's what I'm trying to say.
- [25:19]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
They had a symbiotic relationships, but these were entirely different things and had different functions.
- [25:26]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Right.
- [25:27]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Trump just got, Got. Got rid of that. He's not, I mean, it is. Why now Washington and the entire government, governmental and political process seems tangential to Trump himself because he doesn't really see that as, as certain. Certainly it's not top of mind. It's not even necessarily germane to what he is trying to do to the Trump White House and to Donald Trump. He has, he is looking at somewhere else. That's why he's so confused. He's so confusing to so many people in politics in Washington, especially the Democrats. I mean, the Republicans. The Republicans mimicking Trump have all become or many of them have become mini Trump performers. But the Democrats still regard politics as politics, the serious and honorable profession, the serious business of serious men. And so. Which puts them at a profound disadvantage.
- [26:37]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Yeah, that's what I mean. That institutions have struggled to figure out how to take on this theatrical aspect of politics because it's untethered to what's actually going on. And also, it's very clear that he makes policy up as he's going along, depending on who's responding to what on which, what channel. So we've talked about this before, and I find it fascinating that we are pretty confident that he goes to sleep with the television on and he wakes up with the television on. I can't even imagine him on his own. Does he have any moments when he's actually on his own, or is that always the television on?
- [27:21]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
The television is on all of the time. I mean, there is, there are very few moments in the car when he's doing a rally and a public appearance, but those are pretty much, I think, the only times that the television is not on.
- [27:42]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And of course, he is on Truth. Socially, he has his own social media platform, which he started after he got kicked off of Twitter, but it's largely to throw flames there which get picked up by television.
- [27:55]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Yeah. And while he's. Why he's doing post, he's watching television, and often that's a direct line. What he sees on television then immediately becomes the subject of a post.
- [28:10]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And you also wrote in one of your books, the Siege, I think the second of your books, that he was obsessed or remains obsessed, I guess, with the Nielsen ratings.
- [28:21]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Yeah, all rate. I mean, you know, all ratings. Everything is measured in ratings. Actually, my invitation to have dinner with Trump and his wife came because someone told some. One of his aides told him that I was writing another book and this was told, like, this is a problem. But Trump said, said, oh, that guy gets ratings. Let's see him. And then I immediately got. Got an invitation.
- [28:53]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Right.
- [28:54]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
So it's always. Yes, that is the thing. It is. You know, his, his measure is always a popular audience measure. And it's not, you know, I mean, yes, politicians have responded to audiences, but, you know, there, that is still a relationship in which, you know, we're telling you what's good for you instead of we're telling you what you want to hear, we're telling you what, what moves you when you go to a Trump rally. It is, it's actuallyi mean, he's kind of like a, like a comedian working. He Just, he just throws out stuff. Throws it out, throws it out. And you can see him measuring the response. And when he really gets the response he likes, he just repeats it and repeats it and repeats it.
- [29:48]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Right. It's like a Catskill comedian or a vaudeville act. He's just trying, he's just trying material.
- [29:56]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
He's, you know, again, the performer. The performer. The performer. You can't see this. To judge him as a politician is, is, you're not going to get it. You're not going to understand what's going on here. To judge him as a performer who needs to hold the attention of his audience. Now that, that means he can reject a part of the audience which he doesn't. You know, the, the political, the traditional political thing is that you're appealing to such a wide audience that you're kind of bland and you want, you want to, you're willing to take a, I don't know, you know, a 20% level of interest among 60% of the people. Something. Whereas Trump, and this is much more akin to targeted, modern targeted media, you know, wants, wants 60% of the attention of 40% of the audience. I mean, it's not, he's, he's smart. He has done this before. It's reality television.
- [31:09]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
It's reality television. So let's talk about his special relationship with Fox News. I mean, you mentioned Roger Ailes. You've also mentioned in the past that it was Rupert Murdoch, the owner of Fox News dream to make an American president and his tragedy or his nightmare that the American president he helped make was Donald Trump.
- [31:35]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
There's a confluence of circumstances, and these are somewhat circumstances created by Rupert Murdoch to his disadvantage, but they are fundamental to what happened to the nature of the Trump presidency and how the Trump presidency came about. And it goes like Roger Ailes controlled Fox News absolutely 100%. And he controlledlargely controlled the conservative movement. It was Roger Ailes. The Republican Party was Roger Ailes party. In. July of 2016, Roger Ailes is forced out of Fox News. And he's forced out because of a series of complaints by a series of women at the networks, including, including Megyn Kelly. I mean, Roger Ailes is a pig. And this catches up with him. It catches up with him partly because he's also alienated Rupert Murdoch's sons, ridiculed them, made fun of them, all kinds of. And they set out to get rid of him, which they did. While Rupert Murdoch was. Had his eye off the ball, was have, was on his honeymoon with Jerry hall, his then third Wife who has already. Who will depart the scene.
- [33:23]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Fourth wife.
- [33:25]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Jerry Hall. Fourth wife? Yes.
- [33:27]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Isn't he on his fifth wife now?
- [33:28]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
No, she was the fourth wife. At any rate, he has his eye off the ball. The SunsThe Suns plot against Roger Ailes. Roger Ailes is out. Rupert can't do anything about this. And Fox News is then, without a leader, kind of rudderless at that point in time. What they start to see at Fox News is that the ratings and I believe, and certainly that this was Roger Ailes view, that he would have done anything to have blocked a Donald Trump presidency. I mean, he and Trump were friends, but he, but Roger considered Trump to be a moron. I mean, a performer. It's, you know, the idea, you know, curiously, Roger was still a guy who saw politics as politics. It was, I mean, he kind of got the relationship, you know, he was the next step in the relationship between politics and television, but he still saw politics as the business of politicians. Trump is the next stage in this, and he sees politics as the business of performers. But at any rate, at Fox, Fox without a leader, starts to see that their ratings are really all about Donald Trump. You know, it's a, it's a kind of, a kind of profound understanding at a cable outlet that is entirely led by ratings. Therefore, suddenly their boss becomes not Roger Ailes, who's gone, certainly not the Murdochs who claim to have taken over, but really don't know that much about television. Their boss, their North Star. And their boss becomes Donald Trump because he gets the ratings, right? And he starts to, he starts to dictate. And then when he wins, oh, my God, you know it. Then there, there, there is no doubt what's going on. He is the, he's the programmer. And in fact, he hires, he will hire one of the guys who ran Fox News guy by the bill named Bill Shine. So the Trump White House had a direct line to the control room at Fox News.
- [36:17]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
I mean, it's probably also worth pointing out that at the same time, there's a change in primetime anchors at Fox news because Bill O'Reilly has been MeTooed out of there. Megyn Kelly, who was part of the team of women, along with Gretchen Carlson, who gets rid of Roger Aile, she then leaves. Right.
- [36:38]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
And that was in Megyn Kelly, who is now completely in the Trump camp, but at that point in time was actually a Trump antagonist. And.
- [36:50]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Right, remember the debate, remember the debate where they got into it and he said, you're a woman, you've got blood coming out of wherever I mean, they were full on antagonism.
- [37:00]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
So what happens? And then the, one of the people at Fox who understands this most astutely, there are two people, I mean, I mean, I mean, Tucker Carlson, who then shifts, migrates from his kind of country club Republican Persona, which is why Rupert Murdoch gives him a primetime job because he's, because he's perceived as a less of a doctrinaire right winger. But he, he clearly sees the, the writing on the wall. But the person who most sees it is Sean Hannity. And, and Sean Hannity, who was then the number three in the primetime lineup, who is now the number one in the primetime lineup, becomes just, just signs, signs up to Donald Trump. Matter of fact, there was a time Roger Ailes funeral, which I went to on Sean Hannity's plane, and Sean Hannity at that time, with Roger out the Murdochs taking over, felt he would be kicked out of the network. And he said he was just hanging on to support Donald Trump.
- [38:18]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And in fact, he's gone on to be their biggest star, and then he's.
- [38:22]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Gone on to be their biggest star, but also went on to be, be effectively Trump's central adviser.
- [38:30]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Right.
- [38:31]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
So in, in the, in the history of television and its relationship to the presidency and the history of media, in its relationship to the presidency, never, never has a, has a media person operating in the media with a job in the media been so close to a President of the United States. And it goes, I mean, it goes back and forth. I mean, Hannity is one of the few people who actually can call up Trump and get him to listen for, well, a minimal amount of time, but at least for some moments. And then when Hannity, if he really wants to talk to Trump, you just make a show that is specifically directed to the audience of, of one. But, but again, one of those unwritten stories of the Trump political career is how important Sean Hannity is to it.
- [39:31]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And has he ever offered Sean Hannity a cabinet position? I mean, I'm sure Sean Hannity probably couldn't afford to go. I know he's got to run his plane.
- [39:42]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Yeah, Well, I think at this point, Sean Hannity is often, people say, one of the, one of the richest people in television. And yes, I mean, Sean Hannity could have had any, any, any position in the, in the, in the White House without, without, without question. I mean, you know, I mean, Pete Hagseth is, I mean, Sean Hannity could have been the, the Secretary of Defense in a, in a, in the blink of an eye. But, but he's much more. He's much more influential and much more important in the job that he holds. Let's take a commercial break.
- [40:20]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
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- [42:00]
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- [42:35]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And I'm here with Michael Wolff, scrambling around inside Trump's head. If you look at this through the lens of Donald Trump's experience with television, you understand why he is focused on the central casting of the cabinet. So you have Pete Hegsworth, who we're always joking, was the co host of a weekend show on Fox News, but nevertheless is now you know, running the largest defence department in the world.
- [43:05]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
To say the very least.
- [43:06]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Yeah, to say the very least. I mean, it's just. But you think of all of them sitting around the table and the central casting nature of several of them. Pam Bol.
- [43:16]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Well, I mean, that's always been a thing.
- [43:17]
Commercial Narrator - Tide
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- [43:18]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Yes, get them, get him, get him. He looks the part. Do you look the part? Do you not look the part? Right, yeah. No, I mean, obviously a casting from all, from a casting point of view.
- [43:32]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And you can see, you know, Christine Ome, head of Homeland Security, who we know nicknamed Ice Barbie and who just wears different costume changes according to what she's doing. She's on the border, she's on a horse with a big cowboy hat on, she's in town, she's wearing a flak jacket and she's holding a machine gun.
- [43:51]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
I mean, no, and the Trump women look like Fox women. I mean, you know, there was a very, there's a very precise correlation there.
- [43:58]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Well, and Kimberly Guilfoyle, unfathomably married to Gavin Newsom when he was mayor of San Francisco, at one point was Fox News.
- [44:08]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
And when she was a liberal.
- [44:10]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Yeah. And when she was a liberal and then goes to Fox News and then goes to Don Trump Jr. And has now been dispatched as a compensation prize to Greece where she's the ambassador.
- [44:24]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Just to note, because it would be unfair, it seems not to note this, that Kimberly Guilfoyle was fired from Fox and is one of the few women, maybe the, the only women caught up in MeToo.
- [44:39]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Right, right, absolutely. For harassing her makeup artist. I think.
- [44:45]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Yes. And, and sharing dick pics and I mean, the like.
- [44:52]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Yeah, I think her makeup artist got his revenge, though. Or her revenge with those huge eyebrows and crazy lips and hair extensions. Anyway, we digress. We digress. So, and then Tucker Carlson gets bumped off Fox News after the Dominion legal battle where Fox News has criticized the Dominion voting machines and said they were failing.
- [45:22]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
So the, the, at the risk of going on too long in the minutia of Fox News, there is that second point. So after, after Trump, Trump is defeated in 2020 and what part of the fallout of that is Trump insisting that, that the election was rigged and it's a conspiracy, A line that, that, that Fox takes up because it's the Trump line. Well, Fox then gets sued for that. That will go on to cost them $1 billion. But it will also incur the rage of Rupert Murdoch, who has always hated Donald Trump. Rupert Murdoch is a man who sees politics no matter that He's a conservative. As the business of serious men. Donald Trump, he does not believe to be a serious man, to say the very least. And in fact, Rupert Murdoch After 2020, after January 6th, takes it upon himself, makes it his responsibility to make sure Donald Trump will not bethat. Donald Trump will no longer have a political career, no longer have a hope of a political, political career. And Rupert Murdoch and Fox News basically invent a man by the name of Ron DeSantis. He is going to be the Republican hope and the Trump, the Trump slayer.
- [46:59]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And he's governor of, he's governor of Florida.
- [47:04]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Fox a Fox. By Rupert Murdoch's dictate, Ron DeSantis is to be given airtime. Trump is to be kept off the Fox air. So the camp part of the campaign, of the 2024 campaign, you can see as a battle between Donald Trump and Fox News. And it turns out and well, that Fox News needs Donald Trump more than Donald Trump needed Fox News.
- [47:39]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
But Michael, what was that period like when Trump was in de facto the wilderness and he didn't have an audience and he'd basically been banned from Fox News. Was that when he was sitting at Mar a Lago, basically calculating his comeback?
- [47:58]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Yeah, I'm not sure that he, I mean, calculation is not a word that I would associate with, with Donald Trump. You know, I think he decided, yeah, I mean, he decided that he was going to run for president again. I don't think that that was necessarily a fait accompli.
- [48:22]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And he was also battling lots of legal issues.
- [48:26]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Well, I mean, the legal issues finally were what, were, what propelled him to wage his 2024 campaign. I mean, they're going to come after me, so I have to come after them. What's the best way to come after them on the, you know, on the basis of, of, of running for president? Everything, whatever they say about me is political and, and, and it gives me a platform to run on. So, and that became a powerful platform and it became the platform that he would, that he would certainly vanquish Ron DeSantis and Fox News would be stuck with him as they are now.
- [49:10]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And of course, Ron DeSantis was a particularly bad performer. I mean, he actually made some interesting decisions during COVID in Florida. He kept Florida open, he kept the economy going. But he was a terrible performer.
- [49:26]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Well, against, I mean even, I mean, the Trump people at that time would just shake their heads. I mean, a lot of them actually had worked for Ron DeSantis. And the idea that the straight up battle between Ron DeSantis and Donald Trump was, was at best, for DeSantis, truly a fool's errand. And it was. I mean, he destroyed. He destroyed him within a couple of months. Ron DeSantis was a shell of a, of a shell of a human being, really.
- [50:04]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
So what does Rupert Murdoch make of all this now? I mean, I think he's on his fifth bride now.
- [50:12]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Yeah, well, I mean, so much has, has happened to Rupert Murdoch that I think is, you know, semi tragic. I mean, he's, he has billions and billions and billions of dollars, but everything that he wanted, you know, the love of his family. And his family doesn't speak to speak to. They don't speak to each other. And, and his forever empire, which has been largely dismantled and Donald Trump being president, It's a gloomy world for rich Rupert Murdoch. And Donald Trump is suing him, by the way, right.
- [50:56]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
With revealing the birthday letters in the Wall Street Journal. But it's also a gloomy world for the rest of us that largely Fox News is one of the huge contributors to Donald Trump's success.
- [51:10]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
I mean, Donald Trump. Let's not. Donald Trump took over Fox News, and that was directly related. So in the historical hinge, Roger Ailes pushed out of Fox News because he's a, because he's a sexual abuser, paves the way for Donald Trump, the Donald.
- [51:35]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Trump presidency, another sexual abuser.
- [51:38]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
So be careful what you wish for. That comes under.
- [51:45]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
That is a pretty good through line of Donald Trump and television.
- [51:49]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Well, let's, There's a, there's a central character here that we have to, we have to address, which is Mark Burnett.
- [51:56]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Right. Who is the.
- [51:58]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
So if Roger, we can, we can put, we can put this on Roger Ailes, his head or on Rupert Murdoch's head for dismissing Roger Ailes, but it really is on Mark Burnett's head. So let's understand this. Television saves Donald Trump and reinvents Donald Trump. Donald Trump is washed up. He is bankrupt. He has no money. He has no, He's a kind of. In media circles and certainly in New York circles, he's a joke. The Trump, whatever Trump was as a character in New York has passed. He's too old. He's, you know, he's done it too many times. Everybody knows that you. Trump tricks finished. Mark Burnett is a television producer, a producer of one of the early producers, one of the, one of the monumentally successful producers of reality television. Mark Burnett's first. I'm not sure if it's his first, but certainly his major hit is Survivor. So. And in the early 2000s. He's looking around for a new project and he has a proposal to do a project about a businessman. A businessman who will, who will set up a contest of who can, of who, which contestant can be a better business person. Is, is, is basically the, the, the, the setup here. And they go from, they, they look for established business people to be the, to be the host of this show and, and a whole set of people on this list turn Burnett down. It's cheesy. It's, it's not respectable.
- [54:11]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Well, also if you're a real businessman, you don't really have time to do something like that.
- [54:17]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
For all of the obvious reasons. So, and then they get to Donald Trump and Donald Trump agrees to do this. And it's interesting to have to talk to the people who were there because they were all thought this is not going to work. This is a bad, you know, he's not, he's, he's not a guy who spends the, sends the right message. Nobody's going to think he's a success. This bankrupt is a successful business person. But you know, it's television and, and in fact it, it works fabulously.
- [54:57]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Fabulously well. Fabulously well. I mean his phrase that comes at the end of the, the show, you're fired when he gets rid of a contestant on every episode leaps into the language.
- [55:10]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
But so, but he is recreated for this show. I mean even, you know, this is filmed at Trump Tower. But they go to Trump Tower and they thought, oh my God, this place is a, this, this is, this is a dive. It hasn't been redecorated in years. It's a shithole. They re outfit it. Trump on the set, they can't get him to say the lines because he can't read them. So what they have to do is just run the, run the tape constantly, constantly so that they can, so that they can edit this down in. To make him to what he is. The real Donald Trump is just off the wall saying all kinds of crazy shit stuff that you could, you would.
- [56:04]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Never, never run on national television.
- [56:07]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
No, it doesn't make any sense. It's incoherent. But because of the magic of editing, they can make Trump look like Trump or make him look like the Trump they want him to look like, right?
- [56:24]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Like an effective businessman, like an actual business.
- [56:27]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
So he becomes, he may be washed up in New York, but he becomes to so much of the rest of the country of the reality television watching rest of the country, he becomes America's businessman, which is completely untrue. But completely in this inverse world of reality television. True.
- [56:56]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And of course, we recognize the tropes of the Apprentice now when he has those press conferences with his cabinet all around the table, and you're almost expecting at the end of every press conference for him to turn and point at someone and say, you're fired. I mean, we're all sitting waiting for the first cabinet member to be fired.
- [57:18]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
No. And it is, you know, and so, so remember, most politicians, they are, they are lawyers, they are bureaucrats. Their main interest certainly in their main activity is policy. That's, that's what you do.
- [57:41]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And Donald Trump has never met a policy in his life.
- [57:44]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
No. They have no experience whatsoever with media and television. They have to learn. Some of them learn it along the way, some of them more successfully. But Donald Trump is the star of a reality television show, a top rated reality television show for 14 years. So this is the kind of experience that no one in politics has ever had. And it may be the most valuable experience anybody in politics could have. And a word from our sponsors.
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- [58:51]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
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- [60:58]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And Michael Wolff and I are back where else inside Trump's head. I think the other thing that's worth adding hereand it's interesting that you explain the process that they just left the cameras running because they couldn't get him to read the script is that most normal politicians, and you certainly saw this play out in the last leadership election with Kamala Harris, is they are frightened of television. They are scared of saying something which will haunt them, which will get played across social media. And they've got no ability or their team has no ability to keep the narrative moving. And the surprisingly competent thing that Trump does is just keep the narrative moving. I mean, it was only this time, you know, two weeks ago, we were talking about the catastrophic truth social post he put put out about the Reiner's death, Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer's death and his ability to drive a story forward is frankly, unprecedented.
- [61:58]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
No, well, it is real. Again, a real experience here. I mean, a real relevant experience. No, no, utterly relevant on television.
- [62:11]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And to be the star of the show on television and to be playing a character that, as you say, America believes he is America's businessman, even though his businesses around him, the casinos, the stakes, the water, the champagne, the university are all underwater.
- [62:30]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
No, and it's importantI mean anotheranother small note here is that The Apprentice makes him a lot of money. It essentially rescues him on a financial basis.
- [62:42]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Well, and there's something very humorous about when he. When he stops doing it and Martha Stewart takes over for a season and Arnold Schwarzenegger takes over for a season, that he's obsessed by their ratings and the fact their ratings are not as good as his ratings.
- [62:59]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
No. And it's interesting to look at why that's the case. And I don't have an answer here, except that there is something more. Even from those two people who are. Who are pretty consummate performers. There is something looser about Trump. I mean, he just is. There's a. You know, the un. The unhinged in television works better than the controls.
- [63:35]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Yeah. The unhinged works better than the hinged. And then, as you've always maintained, his hair is something that. Even if there's a dip in the show and there's a character who's not very interested in it, the minute they flash back to Trump's hair, you're like, how is that possible? How is he doing that? Why doesn't he understand he looks ridiculous? But as you've always said, he doesn't care. The point is, you remember what he looks like, and that's what he wants. He wants the attention, and that's been the through line. It's his operating system. Television is his operating system. It's how he communicates, and it's unlike anything we've seen before. And it's almost impossible to go up against.
- [64:17]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
No. And again, what does he see himself as? Does he see himself as a politician? Does he see himself as a historical figure? Does he see himself as a dictator? No, he sees himself as a star.
- [64:37]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Well, I was going to say he sees himself as the most famous man in the world.
- [64:41]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Well, that's a star.
- [64:43]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
It's a star. Michael, That's a fascinating rundown, and I think it gives insight into why we go inside Trump's head three times a week to try and understand his presidency from this purview, which is still not how most people think of him. They think of him as a very unusual politician who's bucking all the usual things. And isn't it outrageous? And they spend a lot of time furious that he's not doing the normal thing, instead of trying to understand what he.
- [65:15]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
That he is no politician at all. That. That is the furthest thing. That is his innovation here.
- [65:24]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Yeah.
- [65:24]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
And I'm sure he finds I am really not a Paul. I mean, many politicians say I'm not a politician. But that's part of being a politician. Well, and I'm sure he's legitimately not a politician. Not interested in politics, doesn't even like politics.
- [65:40]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Well, I was going to say he doesn't like politicians. Right. That's not who he has hangs out with. He wants to hang out with his golf club buddies, he wants to hang out at Mar a Lago. But it's not like he wants all his Republican people or all the other politicians who have to answer to their constituents around him.
- [65:57]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Right. Remember his 17 days before he got to be the president. 17 days in Washington.
- [66:03]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
I know we talk about it every week from this point of view, but just reminding oneself of the Mark Burnett of it all, the Roger Ailes of it all, the Jeff Zucker of it all, all these characters in his journey, and still he's the colossus across television. And as we saw from his pre Christmas address, where he was speaking at twice his usual speed from the podium with a load of greenery behind him, he can command an audience still. So, Michael, one of the other things that Trump has been masterful at is the debates. The debates in 2016. And then of course, his famous debate, which was catastrophic for Joe Biden, where his knowledge of television and his ability to command the stage became paramount.
- [66:54]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Well, that's from a performance standpoint, but I think that there's another. You can even go back and the moment I thought, oh, my God, something is going on here. Happened in the first debate, the first Republican debate in 2016, which actually happened in 2015. And that was a whole lineup of countless Republicans, of countless Republican pygmies on the stage. And there was Donald Trump. Now, debates like that, up until that point, usually got an audience of, you know, respectable audience would be 3 million. You know, that debate 2015, the first debate of the, of the, of the Republican 2016 season, got an audience of 25 million.
- [67:54]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
25 million.
- [67:56]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Yes. That should have been the moment in which everybody said, oh, my God, the world has changed.
- [68:06]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And was this where he went on to sort of throw out his nicknames for people like Low Energy Jeb and Little Marco?
- [68:13]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Well, yeah, that's not the moment I remember. The moment I remember was, was the moment in which everybody is asked, will you support the Republican, whoever is the Republican nominee?
- [68:27]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Right.
- [68:27]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Everybody says there's, there's only one answer there. And the answer is, obviously, yes, I will support the nominee of my party. At which point Donald Trump, who is not only nominally a Republican, comes out and says, no, no, no. And so it's it's that it's a double. So 25 million people tune in because of the ridiculousness of seeing Donald Trump on the presidential debate stage. And then people are rewarded by this guy saying things, something that nobody else would say.
- [69:05]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Right.
- [69:05]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
So that's the moment in which really we should have said everything is in the process of change.
- [69:14]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And not only would no one else say, but would normally be disqualifying, utterly.
- [69:21]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Disqualifying, except for the fact that you get a 25 million. 20, an audience of 25 million because.
- [69:27]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
He'S an entertainer, because he knows that's the ratings things.
- [69:31]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Ratings are everything. You know, even, you know, even during, during the, a 2016 campaign, you know, he would do these rallies which regularly got 30, 40, 60,000 people. And the Democrats would say, you know, regard that as kind of low rent in some way. That's not how modern campaigns work. And of course, that was an absolute indication of someone speaking to an audience in terms that were, well, effective, but beyond effective. Absolutely passionate. He was the show.
- [70:14]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
And we mentioned this last week when we talked about the Epstein files and the fact that Bill Clinton was among the first pictures to be released in the dump that they did last a couple of weeks ago. And of course, his decision suggested by Steve Bannon to bring the women who claimed they'd been abused by Bill Clinton to sit on the front row of his debate, one of his debates with Hillary. And again, people switched on because you couldn't believe that he would do something like this. And you switched on to see what would happen. And it undoubtedly unnerved Hillary Clinton.
- [70:52]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Reality television.
- [70:53]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
That's reality television.
- [70:56]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
And I think perhaps we should finish this episode on television by acknowledging that he has achieved this remarkable control over television from the presidency. So he has not only created a television presidency, but he has used the presidency to give him power over every one of the networks. I mean, we've just had a thing this 60 Minutes again. 60 Minutes. I mean, he's been reverting to another age of television. He sees 60 minutes as 60 minutes, which nobody watches. He sees it as still as a kind of foundational news show. And in 60 minutes, the new head of news at CBS, Barry Weiss, who reports to the Ellison family, who are beholden to Donald Trump and need. Donald Trump, in their efforts to buy Warner Discovery, essentially canceled a segment on 60 Minutes about, about Trump, Trump White House immigration policies and the way they are sending deportees to a prison, a horrible prison in El Salvador. So Barry Weiss, you know, said, you know, basically, I Mean, they're already promoting this, this segment already ready to go, and she cancels it. So. And that is without, without question, a, a direct. Let's. How do we keep the White House happy? This has happened at abc. This has happened. This is just. Everybody in any media organization which has, has, has anyin. Which there is any possibility that the Trump White House can cause problems for it has bowed to Donald Trump.
- [73:19]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Well, and I think one of the things that Bari Weiss had said was that the show shouldn't go ahead because it didn't have a comment from the government.
- [73:30]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Yeah, well, it doesn't. This is all meaningless, what she's saying. She said it, you know, effectively. What she's saying is we have something that might antagonize the administration.
- [73:41]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
I understand that, but the excuse she gave was that they didn't have anybody.
- [73:44]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
And I'm the government. The excuse, I don't want, I don't.
- [73:47]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Even want to give it.
- [73:48]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
I don't want to give it airtime because it's a bullshit excuse. Yeah, it's strictly a political, a political judgment. This was going to give them problems.
- [73:57]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Right. And as we know, he's suing. He's suing the BBC, suing the New York Times, he's suing the Wall Street Journal.
- [74:04]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Right. So this is all about, you know, Donald Trump wanting, wanting, wanting, you know, to. This is. This is. This is the world that he most cares about, the media, and this is the world he wants to dominate.
- [74:26]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
It's just been a remarkable journey, a remarkable journey for all of us. Because we're all passengers on his train.
- [74:35]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
No, we're all viewers of his reality television show.
- [74:38]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Well, actually, we're all extras in his reality show. I think we're all. Well, maybe part of it. Some of us are the audience. Some of us are extras. You're an extra. I'm in the audience. I'm just watching. I've just got the popcorn out. Anyway, if you have been, thank you very much for joining us. That was a long episode this morning, but I think it was a thorough journey, which explains why our perspective on Inside Trump's head, where we go three times a week, is what it is. Michael, any comments before I ask people to subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast, leave us a comment. We're independent media, so we love your support. And don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast, too, for endless, constant updates on what on earth is coming out of the Oval Office.
- [75:27]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
I'm done. I don't know how these guys go on for hours and hours on their podcast.
- [75:31]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
I know. I mean, how does Joe Rogan do it? We've just gone on for longer than an hour and Joe Rogan manages to do three of three hours. I don't know how he does it. How is that possible? I guess people chop it up into little bits.
- [75:43]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Yeah, or Donald Trump when he goes on, you know, a two hour speech. And he could go on for much longer.
- [75:50]
Host - Possibly a Daily Beast Journalist
Indeed he could. But we don't have to.
- [75:53]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
And we should thank our top level members. And they are Sandra Clark, Methinks Travel With Carl Andrew Beaver the Capinator Harry Clark Dawn McCarthy, Daniel dog lover M. Griner Fulvia Orlando Herbie Andrew Melor, Las Conde Bonzo Val Love Francesco Andrea Hodel Bocock D.C. sharon Shipley, Connie Rutherford, Karen White, Heidi Riley. Thank you all. Devon, Anna and Jesse. We are in your day.
- [76:39]
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- [77:07]
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Commercial Narrator - Earnin
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- [78:03]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Toyota Thon ends January 5th. See your participating dealer for details.
- [78:07]
Commercial Narrator - Toyota
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- [78:13]
Michael Wolff - Author and Political Commentator
Want more? Great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the last laugh and our Star Studded the Daily Beast podcast@thedailybeast.com podcasts if you enjoyed this.
- [78:22]
Commercial Narrator - Tide
Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscriber Subscribing is the best way to feed the Beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast. Com membership Podcast and sign up today.