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- [00:00]
Lemonade Pet Insurance Announcer
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- [00:37]
Jonathan Fields
Hey, this is Jonathan Fields, host of the Good Life Project podcast. Boost Mobile reminds me of what I love when someone reimagines what's possible offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. While other carriers spend millions on flashy super bowl ads, Boost Mobile puts those dollars towards what matters more, delivering reliable nationwide coverage at prices that make you wonder why we've been paying so much for just $25 a month. You get unlimited service that will never go up in price. Not next year, not ever. And they're so confident you'll love it, they back it with a 30 day money back guarantee, no questions asked. Want to see if Boost Mobile is right for you? Visit your nearest Boost mobile store or boostmobile.com customers who cancel within 30 days of activation will have Boost service fees refunded, activation fees if applicable, and phone payments will not be refunded.
- [01:36]
Acast Announcer
Acast powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.
- [01:43]
Sarah Hofstadter
Welcome to Creative Commerce.
- [01:45]
Rachel Tippograph
I'm Rachel Tippograph, the founder and CEO of Micmac.
- [01:48]
Sarah Hofstadter
And I'm Sarah Hofstadter, chairwoman of Profitero plus.
- [01:51]
Rachel Tippograph
And this is a show that talks about what's relevant in commerce for the world's biggest brand.
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Sarah Hofstadter
Every week we talk with C Suite executives from the brand shaping our world. Unilever, PepsiCo, Colgate. So many more.
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Rachel Tippograph
We get into the strategies behind their most impactful moves, from digital transformations to new product launches. And of course, we always end with our famous last question.
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Sarah Hofstadter
What's the bravest thing you've ever done? Each conversation is real, insightful and always surprising.
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Rachel Tippograph
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- [02:30]
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- [02:40]
Michael Wolff
This is part of the split that is going on in maga. I mean, a split that I see increasing on an almost daily basis. The implicit promise to MAGA was America First. A profoundly isolationist policy. We do not want American troops anywhere. We don't want American money anywhere. We don't want it. And certainly during the first administration showed a real inclination to turn away from the world. In this administration, a the world has caught up with him. It is very difficult to turn away from. And also, it turns out he loves it.
- [03:19]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
This is very confusing because it's actually Saturday and we're going on a weekend jaunt, which makes no sense.
- [03:27]
Michael Wolff
No King Saturday.
- [03:28]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
No King Saturday. Yes, it's no King Saturday, and we are here in the studio. Well, we're recording this on Friday for Saturday because I guess by popular demand, we are doing a third episode.
- [03:43]
Michael Wolff
What do you mean? Sour face. Popular demand? No, by popular demand. People in the streets.
- [03:49]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
People in the streets. We're doing an extra episode of.
- [03:55]
Michael Wolff
No, no, no. We're not just doing an extra episode. We have expanded from twice a week to three times a week. And so from Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays, Inside Trump's head.
- [04:09]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Okay, But a weekend trip, I feel like it should have a different vibe. For example, normally you're wearing a suit jacket, but today you've got, well, it's dress down Friday, so you're wearing a cardigan, one of your famous cardigans.
- [04:21]
Michael Wolff
I've worn a suit jacket once on all of the shows that we've done. But.
- [04:25]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
No, that's true. You wore sort of linen jacket. A linen jacket. But there was a lot of comment on Thursday or possibly Tuesday's episode, because it turned out we had randomly color coordinated for fall. We were both in brown.
- [04:44]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. And the, the cardigans. As, as you say this, it's. It's the fall, it's the autumn.
- [04:51]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Yeah.
- [04:52]
Michael Wolff
We haven't seen is most of the episodes we've done over the summer, so. So the point is, it was linen.
- [04:57]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Not only will you be getting extra content, you're going to be getting extra knitwear. Extra knitwear. Okay, so where are we going and why? Just remind people we don't have to spend a lot of time on it because regular people will know, but for.
- [05:10]
Michael Wolff
New people, because I lecture on why we're doing this.
- [05:14]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
I think you lecture and I actually don't think you mansplain, but I do think it's good context for people as to why we're doing this differently.
- [05:19]
Michael Wolff
Well, we are going inside Trump's head and we are going there because that's where literally everything happens in American politics. Which is not customary. It usually happens in agencies, in Congress, in think tanks. Yes. There are all kinds of kinds of external factors that influence what's going on now. And it is extraordinary. The only thing, like, singular, the only. I mean, the exclusive thing that has any bearing on anything is what's inside Trump's head.
- [06:02]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
So what is inside Trump's head this weekend, Michael, as we look at the spread of no Kings protest?
- [06:11]
Michael Wolff
Well, I think that's an.
- [06:13]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Can I also just say one thing? And now we're going to get 100 comments saying, I interrupt you. No, King's Protest is a weird title. It's a negative title.
- [06:22]
Michael Wolff
Well, also, what's it about? Who. Who's it directed towards? It seems abstract in some overly creative sense.
- [06:35]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Right. And also it feels like it should be King's protest. Except, of course, we don't want King, and that's the point of America. We left the King. But it just also, King, to be.
- [06:45]
Michael Wolff
Perfectly honest, King has a kind of quaint sound to it.
- [06:51]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Right. So it should be called something else, I think would be more effective is why don't they say release the Epstein files protest? That would be 10 million people.
- [07:00]
Michael Wolff
Totally. A brilliant, a brilliant idea. I mean, that's fantastic. But it also. It's just not. It's not that. It's just in the negative. It is for what there is. What is the protest against? Against a King, I suppose Donald Trump's King. King. It doesn't. It doesn't resonate, but yes, Epstein, release.
- [07:26]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
The Epstein Files protest. Everybody come to Washington. Ten million people, bipartisan issue.
- [07:33]
Michael Wolff
Let's.
- [07:33]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Let's do it. How can we organize it? We're not organizers. We're journalists. We just sit here, we just chat, we just talk.
- [07:41]
Michael Wolff
But somewhere out there is an organizer.
- [07:46]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Release the Epstein Files protest. Everybody come to D.C. doesn't matter what your party affiliation is. We all want to know what's in the Epstein files. Come on, Dan Bongino. Come on, Kash Patel. You know what's in them. But we want to know, too.
- [08:01]
Michael Wolff
I don't want to knock this. This is. It's great. Well, it's an important moment across the country. People turning out in their communities to say, what the fuck? And I think that that isI mean, obviously that is good. The question is, does it have an effect?
- [08:19]
Sponsor Announcer (Noble Gold / SimpliSafe)
Does it.
- [08:19]
Michael Wolff
I mean, what's inside Trump's head, this protest? No, King's protest is not inside Trump's head.
- [08:28]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Well, do we know that? Because we do know that he has a thing about crowd size, because he Made up the size of his inauguration crowd, first time round, second time round. He didn't even have an inauguration crowd.
- [08:40]
Michael Wolff
Well, I think that there is, I think he verynow, it will be in his interest to minimize the crowd. And since the crowd is so spread out, that's easy to do. But I think you have to ask the question, and I think it's. AI mean, I think there are two profound questions here. Why has there been so little protest, so little pushback, so little fundamentally objection to what has been going on for the past nine months? Then the other question is how do you create a protest that hasthat has an effect, that has impact? And I would say, you know, and I would be delighted to be proved wrong on this, but I would say that a protest that is spread out around the country has significantly less effect than a protest that goes to Washington that confronts the people who you want to confront, who create a situation in which they can see you, feel you, smell you, they can't escape you. And you know, obviously, the major protests of the modern era, from Martin Luther King, I have a dream to all of those people in the middle of the civil rights, that civil rights moment arrived in Washington in the Vietnam War, when people again came to Washington for the Iraq war too, you know, under Bush. I mean, these were meaningful moments, moments in which, in which people understood the country as a whole understood, but also the people in Washington understood that, man, you know, this is, you know, we're going to have to account for this. These are American people marching in the streets.
- [10:44]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
And now I think they march online. That a lot of protest has just moved online. People are engaged, you know, arguably 24, 7 in this. But it doesn't have the impact that gathering in person.
- [11:02]
Michael Wolff
No. And I think you could, I mean, there are, there are millions upon millions of people engaged online. I mean, I talk about this, you know, every, every day on Instagram and have a, and a following. I mean, I'm, I'm stunned by how many, how many followers I have listening to these little, you know, a few minutes each day about Donald Trump. Stunned by it. But it's the difference between a fractured social media landscape and mass media. And I think protests, I think you can compare this. I mean, no, kings around the country is a fractured expression, whereas mass protests. So, and let's assume 10 million people in Washington, what kind of effect that would have? Well, that would be historic.
- [12:02]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
But wouldn't Donald Trump just ignore it? First of all, he'd probably be at Mar A Lago. Secondly, he'd Just say, oh, they're making it up. It's not true.
- [12:10]
Michael Wolff
I mean, you can't igno. That's the point about a mass protest, that there are so many people, so many literal bodies. You can't ignore it. This is not ethereal. This is not abstract. This is not virtual.
- [12:24]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
This is boots on the ground in the main city. It's sort of the equivalent of the Arab Spring in terms of just people turning out en masse.
- [12:34]
Michael Wolff
No. And again, so that goes to this second question of why there has been no protests. And I think you're right. I think maybe, maybe that this being online and in social media makes it feel like there has been when there hasn't or there hasn't been the thing that has effect, impact, meaning.
- [12:57]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
And there's also no one person leading an opposition either.
- [13:03]
Michael Wolff
Well, I mean, I think that that's. In times past, in large, large opposition demonstrations, there probably there might not necessarily have been one person either, but what there were were organizers. And I would say, you know, I mean.
- [13:26]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Well, there are organizers of the no Kings protest.
- [13:29]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, and they've done a good job. They're just. The question. The question is, is that the right job? Do they add up to a mass March on Washington, D.C. or are they.
- [13:42]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Less than the sum of their parts?
- [13:45]
Michael Wolff
Exactly. And I'm interested in this idea of organizing. Having never organized anything in my life, this is not easy.
- [13:55]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Right.
- [13:56]
Michael Wolff
So who steps up to the plate to organize something that has this kind of impact? I don't know that person. I wish I did.
- [14:05]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Well, and does it have. I mean, you think of first time around, Trump won the Women's March, which I now don't know how many women went to Washington, but it was a big collegial event that people flew in for. And I mean, the last Kings, the last no Kings protest had 5 million people. It'd be interesting to see. And I'm assuming there will be many more on Saturday.
- [14:32]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, I think that there may well be 10 million people. But as you say, there's 10 million people in one place and 10 million people spread out across a large country.
- [14:45]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
And also it'll get covered on social media, too, so that will amplify it. But I think the point is to what effect? And Donald Trump will ignore it or be doing something else or because he's so good at this, will steal the attention doing something else. As we're recording this, President Zelenskyy is talking to him in D.C. it feels very much to me like the President Knowing he's got troubles at home. The government's obviously shut down for, I think, what are we now? Day 18 has turned his eye precisely where he said he wouldn't to maga, which is abroad, which is what leaders always do in Britain. Whenever things were going wrong, they would always start fiddling around abroad, and it would ultimately be their downfall. And one can't help feeling there's some of that going on here. If you're Marjorie Taylor Greene, who turns out to be doing some protesting of the Republicans herself, how would you feel about the money that's now being tossed to Argentina and Trump casually saying, $20 billion, $40 billion, we're not going to notice it?
- [15:50]
Michael Wolff
Well, no, I mean, this is part of the split that is going on in maga. I mean, a split that I see increasing on an almost daily basis. But, you know, the implicit promise to MAGA was America first, a profoundly isolationist policy. We do not want troops, any American troops anywhere. We don't want American money anywhere. We don't. We don't want it. And, and Trump was largely, largely acceded to that position and certainly during the first administration showed real, a real inclination to turn away from the world. And I think in this administration, a, the world has caught up with him. It is very difficult to turn away from. And also, and also, it turns out he loves it.
- [16:56]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
When you're talking to people around Donald Trump, how are they saying he reacts to this kind of a protest?
- [17:03]
Michael Wolff
Well, they're not even. I literally think this is not on his radar, and certainly nobody is flagging this right now. Everyone is saying he's just euphoric. This Middle east thing was something. I mean, for a guy who kept saying, I'm going to stop all wars, I can do this. I think he's completely surprised that this has turned out as well as it has, and he's riding it. And I think people around him are a little wary of the fact that he now thinks he can do anything, including sending tomahawks.
- [17:47]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Well, he's got the peace bug now, right?
- [17:49]
Michael Wolff
Well, he's got the attention bug, which he certainly had. But he understands, oh, my God, the attention is here and the attention is lavish.
- [17:59]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Yeah, exactly.
- [18:00]
Michael Wolff
As you say, leaders always realize it is easier to do things abroad. You know, as you say, I mean, Tony Blair was hated in the UK Hated and loved abroad. People still think. In the US People still think Tony Blair is the.
- [18:17]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Well, similarly with Margaret Thatcher. She was always off on the world stage. Made her really, in the end, it's always domestic politics that brings you down. And the interesting thing, Nixon went to.
- [18:27]
Michael Wolff
China in the middle of Watergate. And a toss to our sponsors who we greatly appreciate.
- [18:36]
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- [19:33]
Jonathan Fields
Daily.
- [19:34]
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- [20:08]
Michael Wolff
Mind the next time I go on vacation.
- [20:10]
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- [20:37]
Jonathan Fields
Hey, this is Jonathan Fields, host of the Good Life Project podcast. Boost Mobile Reminds me of what I love when someone reimagines what's possible, offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. While other carriers spend millions on flashy super bowl ads, Boost Mobile puts those dollars towards what matters more, delivering reliable nationwide coverage at prices that make you wonder why we've been paying so much for just $25 a month. You get unlimited service that will never go up in price. Not next year, not ever. And they're so confident you'll love it, they back it with a 30 day money back guarantee, no questions asked. Want to see if Boost Mobile is right for you? Visit your nearest Boost mobile store or boostmobile.com customers who cancel within 30 days of activation will have Boost service fees refunded, activation fees if applicable, and phone payments will not be refunded.
- [21:34]
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- [22:13]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
We do greatly appreciate our sponsors. Michael Wolff and I are confusingly here on a Saturday discussing all manner of things. It's also that thing that with Trump, you saw a more generous kind of president when he was there, lavishing praise on everybody else when he was in Egypt. You know, this guy is great. This guy's great. They've all been working really hard. These are not comments he ever makes about his own cabinet. He's always got a kind of, you know, twist in the tail when he's talking about his own cabinet or he's simply putting them down. But actually, on the world stage, you saw someone who was, I hesitate to say this now, I know you're immediately going to say no, but perhaps reaching for if there is a better self. We caught a glimpse of it when he was acknowledging this was a joint effort. It wasn't just him.
- [23:05]
Michael Wolff
I won't directly dispute that, but I will footnote that he's on the world stage knowing nothing about the world stage. So in other instances, you know, Nixon went to China, had been studying the world stage for his entire career. You know, these are, you might say, serious people on the world stage, whereas this is a profoundly unserious person.
- [23:34]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Well, and I don't want to sound churlish in any way about creating any kind of moment of peace in the Middle east, but there was something very hastily put together in what appeared to be a hotel room, that kind of weird dais that they'd erected with Peace 2025.
- [23:52]
Michael Wolff
We really don't know the details of this agreement or who has agreed to what now, which. And I will on my side be less than churlish about this and saying, maybe that's his genius. We got everybody to agree to whatever they thought they were agreeing.
- [24:11]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
And the fact that it's a 20 point plan and we only know the first five points is neither here nor there.
- [24:15]
Michael Wolff
I mean, maybe that is, again, you know, Trump genius. I hesitate to say that, but the other thing is we really, we don't know what's going to happen or what he's going to do. So Zelensky is in the White House today. We do not know if Trump is going to be Zelensky's on Zelenskyy's side or opposing Zelensky. And he is theoretically has had what was billed as a two hour conversation with Putin. I'm really atok, I know it. If that was a two hour conversation, that was two hours of Trump motor mouthing Putin and Putin just listening and just letting it go on.
- [25:06]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Putin just giving his inscrutable smile.
- [25:10]
Michael Wolff
But he may be, we don't know if he is Putin's friend or Putin's enemy. And he goes back and forth, remember that? I mean, not too long ago, this is just weeks ago, he went to Alaska for what?
- [25:24]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Yeah. A peace summit, right?
- [25:26]
Michael Wolff
Yeah.
- [25:27]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Was there a peace summit?
- [25:28]
Michael Wolff
Yes. And for whatever he got there, he got nothing there. And Putin got whatever there was to get.
- [25:36]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Well, he got a ride in the Beast, which everybody assumes he immediately managed to bug. And Trump somehow thought he was leaving America because he kept saying, you know, he was leaving America to go and do this. He seemed very confused. Whatever, they're back at it. If you're in Trump's head right now, what voices are you hearing?
- [25:59]
Michael Wolff
He hears no voices other than his own. I mean, I want to bethat sounds hyperbolic, but this isit would be wrong to assume that there is any other voice here. And Trump himself, when asked on this question, which he has been asked many times, and he is remarkably consistent on the answer, who do you take advice from? He says he looks incredulous and says, only myself. So, but I think now he has come off this high of what happened in the Middle east and he wants more of it.
- [26:43]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
And Zelenskyy said, I will nominate you for the Nobel Peace Prize next year if you can bring an end to this terrible war.
- [26:50]
Michael Wolff
Right. And so the question is how? And that has come down to the Tomahawks. This is the Tomahawk question.
- [27:03]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Tomahawk missiles, yes.
- [27:04]
Michael Wolff
Does he give. I mean, he has certainly dangled that out there. We may have to give you the Tomahawks. And then he has gone on to describe the damage that Tomahawks would do, this would be damage that they would do to Russia. And one assumes that he is saying this because that will, that will theoretically scare Vladimir Putin. But then he says, well, maybe I'm not gonna give the Tomahawks and we need the Tomahawks, so we're not gonna give the Tomahawks. I mean, does he even know what a tomahawk is? I mean, but what he does know is the name. It's great to say this. I'm Tomahawk. Enjoying saying tomahawk.
- [27:48]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Yeah, yeah. It's the sort of the word that could be a chant. Tomahawks. Tomahawks, yeah. Like, thank you, Trump. Thank you, Trump. It's got the same rhythm as what we heard people chanting in Israel last weekend. So maybe this is every weekend he has to go and do a peace deal. We know that he's ended seven wars, or is it eight wars now?
- [28:06]
Michael Wolff
But then let's go back to what this does on his base in the MAGA base, which is at the very least churlish about this. They don't like it. They don't like any aspect of this, of the fact that he might be sending tomahawks, even the possibility of tomahawks. I mean, they don't like the fact that he isthat even if he has established a ceasefire and the return of the hostages, he's done this at the.
- [28:48]
Sponsor Announcer (Noble Gold / SimpliSafe)
Cost of a really very, you know.
- [28:51]
Michael Wolff
Even more than usual embrace of Netanyahu, who the MAGA people detest. So, you know, I see this as this among the growing list of issues that MAGA has a problem with.
- [29:11]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
So where does this put, when you're talking to people and this split in MAGA is extremely interesting. Where does this put J.D. vance?
- [29:21]
Michael Wolff
Well, I thinkI mean, J.D. vance is and can only be in one place, which is joined at the hip to Donald Trump. So anything that any perceived deviations from Magadom by the MAGA people is going to infect J.D. vance. We should also talk about this amount of money, 20 billion, 40 billion to Argentina that may or may not go to Argentina. You know, it's a, you know, a fundamental Republican principle is against bailouts. Well, we are very clearly, I mean, I don't think there's any pretense otherwise bailing out Argentina. And very specifically because the Argentina president is Trump's favorite president.
- [30:18]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Right, because they have a lot in common.
- [30:22]
Michael Wolff
Apparently.
- [30:23]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
So let's just focus for a second on this magasplit. Who is leading the sort of MAGA split? Who are the voices now that have real audience on this stuff?
- [30:38]
Michael Wolff
Well, I mean, you know, very much, Tucker, you know, I think we should spend some time. I think I said this the last time. He is worth a. He is worth all of our attention. I mean, he is worth our attention on this subject. He is a clear voice A cogent voice, a persistent voice and a popular voice. I mean, there are others, too. Marjorie Taylor Greene has stepped forward in a way that seems to confound everybody because she is breaking from the president in real ways. I mean, some ways that liberals are suddenly finding, like, common cause with.
- [31:25]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Well, she's spoken with him on Epstein, right? She's one of the signatories for release the Epstein files led by the cross party team of Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna. And also she's figured out that her kids are going to have to pay double their health insurance premiums. So politics has become personal for her.
- [31:44]
Michael Wolff
Right. And so she now has essentially gone over to the other side in terms of the shutdown. And least we forget the shutdown. We should come back to it because it is, although we seem to again ignore this in the cascade of other events, it is the central event in American politics and government at this moment. And a word from our sponsors, because Trump doesn't stop for the weekends.
- [32:18]
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- [32:57]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
And we're back after a word from our sponsors because inside Trump's head is 24-7365. So how do protesters tomorrow use the shutdown as a way of pointing out that right now America isn't working?
- [33:13]
Michael Wolff
I'm not sure that's how protests, a mass protest, even one spread out across the country work, you know, or certainly, I mean, one of the other problems, I think you can put it this way, about a protest spread out across the country is that the message is unclear. There is no one delivering a message. No one is going to have a dream in front of, you know, hundreds and hundreds of communities with different protests.
- [33:45]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Right. And one of the criticisms of the Democrats at the last election was that their only coherent message, KAMALA Harris only coherent message was, I'm not Donald Trump. Say no to a dictator, but you have to be for something to get people to vote for you. Right?
- [34:02]
Michael Wolff
Well, I don't know if. I mean. Yes, Well, I don't know if that's true or not.
- [34:10]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Well, I think it's harder to motivate a negative vote than, than it is to get people to vote for something. When you see what's happening with Mam Dani in New York, people are leaning into his enthusiasm, his apparent authenticity, energy.
- [34:25]
Michael Wolff
Well, also his specific message. The cost of living.
- [34:29]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Right. Is too high. Yeah. Affordability.
- [34:31]
Michael Wolff
Yes. No, I mean, I think that that is true. I mean, the problem with the Democrats is that none of their messages have, you know, because they are Democrats, because they are fundamentally bureaucratic. You know, they're fundamentally about the particulars of policy, which is all good and all necessary and what you need to.
- [35:02]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Actually run a country effectively. But it's very hard to sell it when you're up against someone whose singular talent is holding the attention to himself. So I think we could have, you know, 10 million people protesting, no kings across the country and Donald Trump will still do something that just means that he gets the attention.
- [35:22]
Michael Wolff
So it's really a question, you know, I think, what can you do that he can't compete with?
- [35:29]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
That's a very good way of putting it. What can you do that Donald Trump can't out attention you in?
- [35:36]
Michael Wolff
Okay, and let's look at this because one of the things should be to shut down the government. And I would have said that is going to command everyone's attention, but it is not. But perhaps it will. And I mean, the government shutdown is at an interesting point because it is going on and on and on. And I don't see given the positions on both sides, I mean, it's suddenly, it is now articulated on win or lose. There is no compromise in the middle of this.
- [36:17]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
And you say it's not getting any attention. I'm sure it's getting attention from people who are government workers who are being treated so cavalierly. I mean, the whole decision to fire 4,000 people last week and then the chaos that they had to undo half of those firings because they realized they couldn't manage without them.
- [36:34]
Michael Wolff
No, absolutely. And that in itself should be the major story, but it is not.
- [36:41]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Well, because it turned out to be peace in the Middle East. Right. So Russell Vought at the Budget office, who's trying to has now said they're going to try and get rid of 10,000 people during this shutdown. Again, in a normal time, that would have an incredible amount of attention. But Trump's great talent is keeping attention for himself.
- [37:02]
Michael Wolff
Now, the Democrats, I believe, understand that the longer this goes on, the more attention it will have to get, because the more people it will directly affect. And their bet is that the person who will be held ultimately responsible is the President of the United States, because he leads the party in power, which I think is true.
- [37:28]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
So if you were saying who's winning the shutdown at the moment, is it the Democrats or is it Trump?
- [37:33]
Michael Wolff
I would say the Democrats by a bit, maybe by even a bit more.
- [37:40]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
And Mike Johnson seems on the back foot over Adelita Grieva.
- [37:44]
Michael Wolff
The congresswoman from Arizona seems on a back foot.
- [37:49]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Well, at least he's on the backboro.
- [37:51]
Michael Wolff
The guy is always in, you know, the headlights.
- [37:57]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
He is always in the headlights, but at least he's on the back foot because poor old Mitch McConnell took a cropper in the Senate yesterday. That was unfortunate. But Mike Johnson's refusal to swear in the congresswoman in Arizona is also becoming an issue.
- [38:12]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, I mean, Epstein, Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. Will Is an issue. Will be an issue. Is the issue that doesn't go away is. I mean, I have said from the beginning that I thought that that should be. That the Democrats should make that a central issue. Issue of the shutdown.
- [38:34]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Right. That unless you release the files, we're not going to open the government again. Well, maybe we have an Epstein protest. Maybe the Next Epstein is 10 million people. It's the Epstein files process. Weirdly, the Epstein files process would get both across.
- [38:51]
Michael Wolff
Yes. Oh, my God. Yes.
- [38:53]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
That's what we should organize. But I very much appreciate the dress down Friday.
- [38:59]
Michael Wolff
Well, you're. You. You look like you always look. I am.
- [39:02]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Yeah.
- [39:03]
Michael Wolff
Well, I look like I always. It's just. What else are you going to wear? Since you don't have to. Video no longer requires a tie and jacket.
- [39:12]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Yeah, totally true. Totally true. I think we should do a.
- [39:16]
Michael Wolff
You know this. When you went on television, the guys would be in the tie and jacket, and then they would be wearing pajamas or shorts or below the table.
- [39:26]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
That's so weird to me. So weird. And then, of course, all that took off during COVID All right, well, I think we both deserve a weekend now. But I do think it's an Epstein Files protest, isn't it? Release the Epstein files. We should fire up the MAGA base on this.
- [39:42]
Michael Wolff
Well, we should become organizers.
- [39:45]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Okay, well, we're journalists. We're not organizers. But I think it's. It's released the Epstein's files process protest. And that's worth going to D.C. for.
- [39:56]
Michael Wolff
I'll see you there.
- [39:59]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
If you have been thank you for joining us on a Saturday. Let us know what you think. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. We're independent media, so we appreciate your support.
- [40:10]
Michael Wolff
There's a button you just push.
- [40:12]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
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- [40:19]
Michael Wolff
Want to tell people to pay a premium and then you get all kinds of favors from us?
- [40:24]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Do you want to say Bee Beast?
- [40:26]
Michael Wolff
No?
- [40:27]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Okay, well, I'll say it.
- [40:28]
Michael Wolff
I don't want to say that. I don't even want you to say it.
- [40:30]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
I'm going to say it because if you haven't been this week, it's time. Beast. And a shout out to our top tier Beebeast members, Karen White, Heidi Reilly, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hodel and.
- [40:42]
Michael Wolff
Free dc thank you, Devin Anna, Jesse Waters.
- [40:51]
Podcast Co-host (possibly Daily Beast host or co-host)
Our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Vaughn Erson and Jessie Millwood.
- [40:59]
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Michael Wolff
Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily Beast podcast@thedailybeast.com podcasts if you enjoyed this.
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Lexi and Nicole (Fantasy Fangirls podcast hosts)
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