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- [00:00]
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- [00:02]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Can I make my sight softer?
- [00:03]
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- [01:05]
Simone Sanders Townsend
You're linear and one dimensional. Ambition doesn't just go up anymore. It zigs and zags and squiggles. We're CEOs, executives, founders. We're advising companies, launching side hustles, taking breaks, defining our next act ambition on our terms. The possibilities are endless. Chief Lead on join us@chief.com the President of the United States seemed to be sleep in a event in the Oval office for about 20 minutes the other day. Where are the questions about that? Who is actually in charge here? Because that can't be the first time the president fell asleep. You know how I know? Because they didn't bat an eye. They didn't that that is not the first time the President fell asleep. So when that happens, who is making the decisions?
- [02:06]
Joanna Coles
I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast and my guest today has been inside more political war rooms than any of us could ever dream of. Simone Sanders Townsend worked for Bernie Biden and Kamala, a trifecta that gives her a front row seat to the theater, the tantrums and the tactics of American politics. She's now co host of the Weeknight on msnbc or Ms. Now as they're about to call themselves, where she brings the same sharp instincts she once used behind the podium to the screen. Simone, welcome. We could not have a better person to discuss what the hell is going on in the Democratic Party. You were national press secretary for Bernie Sanders, you were a senior adviser to Joe Biden, and then you were press secretary for Kamala or head of Kamala.
- [02:59]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I was senior advisor and her chief spokesperson for the vice president. And I was a deputy assistant to the president. So I've seen it all.
- [03:06]
Joanna Coles
You've seen it all. And we find ourselves in the most, I think, surprising moment. I was not anticipating that eight Democrats would vote with the Republicans to, at least in the Senate, to move on with the shutdown, to close the shutdown. I mean, we've got other Democrats calling them defectors. What the hell is going on?
- [03:30]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Well, look, Joanna, I was sitting watching with bated breath yesterday, just like everyone else, trying to understand if this was true. And as I was running my errands on Sunday, I'm texting with and calling senators that I know, just really trying to parse through the tea leaves and read what's going on. And what I gathered is the culmination of what we saw last night is that a number of Democrats, many of them, I think almost all of them, none of them are up for reelection next cycle. Many of them are retiring.
- [04:03]
Joanna Coles
Right. Dick Durr, who's number two in the Senate. Right. He's retiring.
- [04:07]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Mm. And what was clear to me is that folks felt that the pain that people were feeling all across this country, whether it was pain because you don't know when your SNAP benefits are coming because the president has decided not to fund snap, whether it's the pain of standing in a food line all across this country because you don't know when your next check is coming, whether whatever, whether it's the pain of your flight being delayed or canceled five minutes before you're supposed to get on, or if you're an air traffic controller who literally cannot afford to keep doing the job of three people when you yourself are not getting paid, whatever that pain is, that those eight Democrats felt that the pain was too much and too much pain, too much time had passed, and that they needed to cut a deal and compromise. Now, my takeaway from this is two things. One, the hostage taking that the White House engaged in over the last couple of weeks, it worked. You know, And I say that because the White House made a decision not to fund snap. Why? Because they thought, and, you know, these eight Democrats in the Senate, I think, underscore that that was atheir thinking was correct. They thought that using the hunger of people in this country would bring Democrats back to the table. Now, I think they thought Chuck Schumer would be the one to fold and would lead the caucus and it that way. But that is not how it happened. So when I think the hostage taking work, I would also underscore that the chaos that we've been seeing in the airline industry is a manufactured crisis. But it worked.
- [05:43]
Joanna Coles
But how does this work in terms of the Democrats leadership? Because you've got Governor Newsom in California, you've got Richie Torres in New York saying this is surrender, this is unconditional surrender. How do you think Donald Trump is going to use this against the Democrats?
- [06:01]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I don't think it's smart politics and I don't think it was good policy because it's the same that Senator Thune offered Democrats a couple weeks ago and they didn't take it. I mean, yesterday the people were with the Democrats. They believe them. And so what do you tell the folks who have suffered for the last 40 days? That yes, you are fighting for them, but the fight has ended with nothing but a pinky promise. And I think that that's a keyi think that that's a key question. And so I think it's not just Gavin Newsom and Richie Torres, right. Who are upset. I think a lot of people who have been doing the hard work of electing Democrats up and down the ballot over the last couple of months in special elections and then they culminated on Tuesday in this off off year election, those people are like, wait, what are we doing? Mikey Sherrill, the governor elect of New Jersey, she was on CBS THIS Morning on Sunday Morning and she was asked by Margaret Brennan directly, she said Margaret Brennan asked her why would the promise of a vote not be enough, and I'm paraphrasing here, not be a good deal. And the governor elect who currently House of Representatives, she said a promise is not enough. It's not enough to promise the subsidies. They need to actually vote on it in whatever is presented. And so I guess I would underscore that it's not good politics, it's not good policy. And the people who again made this decision, these eight members of Congress, of the House, of the Senate, are people who are not going to really feel any consequences for what they've done electorally. But for everyone else, if you're a person that cannot, is already counting your coins across the country, you can't afford for your premiums to go up. In what universe are we going to believe that the Republican Party apparatus, this current version, the House, led by Mike Johnson, who has already said he's never going to be, he's not going to promise anything. Three days ago, four Days ago, at this point, he said he's not going to promise any vote on subsidies. He's just going to let the process play out. Why would you believe that a vote is going to happen in the Senate and the House and then get to Donald and then a bill is going to get to Donald Trump's desk? That's a lot of faith to put into the hands of people who have been unwilling to stand up for themselves as a co equal branch of government. I'm talking about Republicans in Congress.
- [08:24]
Joanna Coles
So you are the national press spokesperson for Senator Bernie Sanders. If you were in Trump's press organization now, how would you be spinning this.
- [08:37]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Now, Joanna, I don't think there's a universe where I will ever be in Donald Trump's press, or I don't think so either.
- [08:44]
Joanna Coles
But the skills are the same.
- [08:46]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Oh, I think they're gonna say that Democrats caved, right? To be very clear, they're gonna say Democrats caved. They finally come to the table. They're being adults now, and I think Caroline Levitt is gonna stand in front of that podium today and to and say these eight Democrats that came to the table understood what I've been saying for weeks. It was not good politics, nor is it good policy, because up until yesterday, the Republicans were being in Congress, were being blamed for the shutdown.
- [09:15]
Joanna Coles
How do you think this decision reflects on the fact that the Democrats just had a victorious sweep last week on Tuesday? I mean, they were riding high. There was energy. People were saying, oh, finally, the Democrats have got their act together. They're coming back, they've got energy, they're united. I think this is quite unusual. I don't remember, at least recently, Democrats attacking each other like they are doing now. The unconditional surrender language is really unusual for Democrats to attack each other. Normally, that's reserved for the other party, but now you've got them against each other.
- [09:53]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I mean, there are the things I was seeing being lobbed last night on social media in my inbox. I was, to be frank, I was on one hand shocked, but on the other hand, I'm not shocked because the stakes are very high in this moment. And look, Democrats in the House and the Senate, they are in the minority. When you're in the minority, the majority party, they don't actually need you for anything. And this Republican Party apparatus, this iteration of this Republican Congress with Donald Trump as president in the second term, has demonstrated that, has gone through great lengths to demonstrate that. But the one thing they do need Democrats for in this iteration, because there is because the 60 vote threshold in the Senate is to fund the government. They do need the Democrats to do that. And because Republicans do not have 60 votes, they must compromise. And I think the issue that a lot of voters have across the country and the language is so strong, frankly, from some of these other members of the Democratic Party apparatus is because it's like these members threw their leverage away after 40 days for what? They didn't get anything. And I think that if there was something of note that they got, and I know that in this CR that was passed, they got a promise that people who were rifed, that is fired while they were furloughed, that those people would be reinstated, which is important. And they also got a promise that people, if there's ever another furlough, people will never be rifed again. Okay, well, did Donald Trump know about this negotiation? Because he is the person, you know, John Thune, last I checked, didn't rip anyone, didn't fire anybody, dismissed them from their federal, you know, their job within the federal government. The president did. And to be very clear, Russell Vote, did. Did anybody get Russell Vote to sign onto this? Because what regularly happens is the members of Congress will get together and pass something and do something, right? And then the White House, led by Russell Vote is saying, we're not going to do that, we're going to do this. We're going to take the money from here, we're going to take the money from there. We're not going to fund this. We're going to fund this. They don't actually get to decide that. And so I think the issue that a lot of folks have is you're putting a lot of faith into some and a lot of trust into individuals who one could argue, are not actually in the driver's seat. Because John Thune agreed to that, the members agreed to that. Well, what about the president and Russell? Nobody likes Democratic infighting, to be very clear. But sometimes, you know, there's a big tent. You know, Thanksgiving is coming up, Joanna, sometimes you got to have a family conversation. Now, I think what's unfortunate is the family conversation is playing out in the public, on the Internet and in the airwaves. But it's a tough day to be a senator, Joanna.
- [12:36]
Joanna Coles
Very tough, very tough day to be a senator. I mean, I guess the senators who voted with the Republicans to end the shutdown, and of course it's still got to go through Congress. But what did they gain from this?
- [12:48]
Simone Sanders Townsend
They said that they got some promises about people who had been, who were furloughed and had been fired. And they got those folks reinstated and they got a promise of a vote on the Affordable Care act subsidies in December. And they'll say that this means that SNAP is going to be funded, WIC will be funded. Head Starts are going to open like Head Starts. All across the country are closed right now. There are families that had to go to work today and people who did not know what they were going to be able to do with their children. Right. Unless they were, you know, if your child is not of school age per se, like, what are you? Child care is already too expensive in this country. And so they would say that they alleviated the pain for people across this country because there was. They were at an impasse. There was no other choice. We'll see if that is an effective and sufficient argument for folks across the country. It's not a sufficient argument for me. Okay. But I'm not one of their constituents, so we'll see what their constituents say. Again, I say one other thing, Joanna, because this whole conversation that we're having now about affordability, and it's like everyone has woken up that affordability is an issue. This is an extension of a conversation we were actually having in 2020 and 2021. Right. Remember when Joe Biden had the Build Back Better plan? And I was one of the people that was very critical that people didn't know what Build Back better was by 2022 and 2023. So you got to ditch the language. But part two of build back Better was about the care economy affordability. The affordability crisis is just the care economy by another name. And just a couple years ago, just five years ago, there was not the political will from most elected leaders in this country, in the House and the Senate, whether they be Democrats or Republicans, to address that crisis. And now we are living with the ramifications of not doing that. Perhaps we would not be in this such dire place if, well, one, if Donald Trump wasn't president because of the tariffs. But two, if some legislation was actually passed in 2021 or in 2022 that actually affected the things that deal with people's everyday lives first. So, I mean, I think that there's a lot of soul searching, frankly, that's going on today and the primaries that are happening in the midterms next year on the Democratic side of the aisle, you are going to see an emergence of people who are willing to fight versus those that are not. And how do you fight? And those are the kind of conversations I think we're going to see playing out in Maine, in North Carolina, right, where there are two very important primaries in Ohio, right, where Democrats Sherrod Brown could potentially get back his Senate seat. Right in Texas, where I do believe if John Corn is not the Republican nominee and Ken Paxton is Democrathat seat is in play. These are the kind of conversations that are gonna play out across the country and in some of these Househouse races, very competitive House races. So the people that you hear saying, ah, what are you Democrats doing? This is not what the people want. Those are folks that understand where the pulse of the Democratic voters are, and that matters. Jon Ossoff is the most vulnerable Senate Democrat up for reelection next cycle. He is in Georgia. And yesterday afternoon, when I saw that Jon Ossoff was a no, I was like, oh, okay, the polls is still there. Jon Ossoff has his finger on the pulse. I don't think he is continuing. He voted no just on principle. He is understanding where the constituents are. And so I think. I think people should take a look at what the leadership of the dscc, the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, how they voted. Right. Kristen Gillibrand leads that effort. She is the head of that effort this cycle. One of the vice chairs is Senator Lisa Blunt Rochester out of Delaware. How did they vote? Where did they come down? What are they saying over the next couple of days? Because these are the individuals, yes, Chuck Schumer as well. But like, these are the folks who are doing the everyday work of trying to. To take back the Senate for the Democrats. So, child. Joanna, it doesn't make sense. Okay? Some of it just doesn't make sense.
- [16:52]
Joanna Coles
Does the Democratic Party need new leadership and where is it going to come from?
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Simone Sanders Townsend
I would argue that that's a loaded question. What are we talking about? Are we talking about in the House and the Senate or nationally?
- [17:02]
Joanna Coles
Governor Newsom, like him or love him, is emerging as the dominant Democratic figure right now. You've got a lot of people circling around Chuck Schumer saying he has to go. Nancy Pelosi has just announced she's retiring. And in terms of the sort of polling, Governor Newsom, with his funny tweets and his confidence in speaking out and apparently saying what he believes appears to be leading the pack. Now, of course, it's incredibly early, but the fact that Kamala Harris was nowhere to be seen in the Virginia governor's race, she was nowhere to be seen in the New Jersey governor's race. I mean, there seems to be a vacancy and he appears to be stepping into it. And Then there's Governor Pritzker running close behind.
- [17:50]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Well, look, I think that when people, I don't think that Democrats right now need a leader to lead them out of the wilderness. Right. I think that there are many national figures and leaders that are emerging. I would add to that list Governor West Moore. I would add that there are a lot of champions on the House side, frankly, of the aisle and, excuse me, in Congress that are leading voices, but.
- [18:13]
Joanna Coles
None of them have the visibility because part of this is about just the ability to get attention and the ability to be seen. And you may be right that these are emerging figures, but none of them have the prominence that Governor Newsom or J.B. pritzker have at the moment.
- [18:29]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Right. But I mean, what's more, he's a governor too. He has the prominence. I just, I would argue that Democrats, a lot, Democrats, and I think a lot of people who are watching Democratic Party politics are saying, ah, who's going to be the leader that's going to step up and like, take the mantle? And in an off, to be very clear, when you've lost a presidential election, you don't actually have a leader. That's actually how it works. When you lose the presidential, you don't have a leader. You got a lot of people that say they want to be the leader of the Democratic Party apparatus of the situation.
- [18:59]
Joanna Coles
You say that, but in fact, Donald Trump remained the head of the Republican Party after he lost the election. Right. I mean, the party became his party.
- [19:09]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Well, on the Republican side of the aisle, yeah, that worked for them. They have. I mean, he has been dominant in Republican Party politics for the last 10 years. They never walked away from the Republican Party apparatus, never walked away from Donald Trump. They never turned the page, frankly. I think Democrats, on the other hand, they, I mean, very prominent Democrats participated in the very public ousting of the sitting president as the Democratic nominee last cycle. This is where we are. And so that, to me says that these two parties are one of the reasons that these two parties are not like the other. But when it comes to Democratic Party politics, usually when you lose, you are kind of in the wilderness for a little bit. And the way you come out of the wilderness is you go win some more elections and then different leadership emerges. Gavin Newsom is doing a great job. JB Pritzker is doing a really good job. I would argue Wes Moore is doing a good job. There are Democratic governors in this country. Like, the Democratic governors are holding the line. We don't talk a lot about her right now. But Gretchen Whitmer, she's leading in Michigan. So could some of those people be the leader that Democrats are looking for? Could any of those people end up being the Democratic nominee? Yes. But I also think that the Democratic nominee for 2028 could potentially be someone that we haven't even heard of yet. But I also believe I'm going to be honest, Joanna. I'm concerned about the elections in 2026 and what those elections look like. And I am not sure what 2028 is going to portend given everything that is happening. We don't talk enough about what's going on on the electoral. On just the electoral administration side here. But this administration has taken up something called election integrity. They've been installed election deniers into key positions in the Department of Homeland Security. They are asking states all across this country to give them their voter file data and threatening them withholding funds if they do not do that. They are attempting to take over the election infrastructure in this country. Hell, just last night the President pardoned all the fake electors, the people who are a part of the fake Elector scheme from 2020.
- [21:23]
Joanna Coles
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- [24:52]
Joanna Coles
And I'm back with Simone Sanders Townsend talking about the split in the Democratic Party. Do you think the Republicans are going to fiddle with the elections? Do you think they're going to actually either make sure some of them don't happen or how do you think that's going to happen? What's the mechanism?
- [25:10]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I think they're fiddling with the elections right now. That's what the mid decade redistricting is about. That the President was concerned about them. This is just from reporting that I have seen and stories that I know that the President was concerned about the about the ability to retain the house specifically earlier this year and said okay, well we need to do something about this. And that is why they called up Texas and asked them to find him five seats, and Texas did that. They are now. They've all now also called up Indiana and Missouri. That is a. That is a part of it.
- [25:38]
Joanna Coles
Right. But, Kelly, California has responded to that with its own gerrymandering or redistricting. Right.
- [25:44]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Mm. But that's not. There is no guarantee that any of this will be enough. But the point is, is that it shouldn't have happened in the first place. The president of the United States cannot call. Should not, cannot call up a governor of another state and say, hey, I'm going the way the maps are right now. I'm going to lose the election next year. Can you find me five more seats? So it makes it more likely I win. That is a form of. That is a form of tampering with the. He's tampering with the maps. He's trying to engineer. Re. Engineer the system so it is better for him. The election. The poll monitors that they sent out, Right. These are all. These are all test cases and trial balloons. I don't know if they're going to physically, you know, tamper with the votes. I don't think that it has to go that far. I think the infrastructure of elections in this country and the very. The attempts to tinker and tamper with the election infrastructure in this country is enough to give me pause.
- [26:43]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so let me take you to Carolyn Leavitt, the White House press spokesperson, who is very much a representative of what's going on in the White House. You've been a press secretary. What do you think of her? We know that you. Donald Trump calls her machine gun lips. He's always talking about her lips. What do you think about what comes out of her lips?
- [27:08]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I think that Caroline Levitt is being graded on a curve. That. And I think all the. A lot of the Trump people are frankly graded on a curve that would never be afforded to like. That would have never been afforded to Joe Biden and would never be afforded to insert any other Democratic president that's there.
- [27:23]
Joanna Coles
What does that mean?
- [27:24]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I think she's being graded on a curve. She's not. She gets up there and she will not tell the truth and lie. She will lie. She has lied from the podium before. And when she lies, she says it with authority and then moves on to the next person. And a lot of times, the reporters in the press briefing room do not press her. Now, I would argue as of late, when it comes to what is happening with the government shutdown and snap, the reporters have been a little more pointed in their questioning because it wasn't. It's just not adding up and it's not making sense. But I think that just because one speaks with authority, Right. This is the Trumpism of it all. Right. You speak with authority. You seem to be in command of what you're saying. And it's like, okay, so the content doesn't matter. You're accessible to the reporters. Right. Because that's one of the arguments from a lot of folks in the White House press corps. Well, you know, Biden wasn't really accessible. Donald Trump is very accessible. Caroline Levitt, we can get answers from her. Is the accessibility the point or the information? And, and I think that they have found this Trump White House found a very willing participant in Caroline Levitt. Was she new at the job? Had she ever been a press secretary before? No. Was she a comms person? No, but she is a soldier. And that is whatthose are the requirements for the Trump administration right now. They don't necessarily care about your qualifications. They care if you're going to toe the line for the president and defend him and his agenda at all costs. And when it, if that is the barometer of which she is being graded, then she's hitting all the marks. Because regardless of what it is, she concedes nothing. She will relent Nothing. There's nothing they ever did wrong. She'll stand up on the podium and say things that are in direct contradiction that what a cabinet secretary just put out or just said somewhere else. And it's like, oh, well, Caroline Levitt said it, so must be true.
- [29:12]
Joanna Coles
So if you were grading her, what grade would you give her?
- [29:16]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Very low marks. I mean, I guess I'd give a D. They're lying. They're lying. I'd give a D. I don't give an F because, you know, like, I give a D because she stands up there regularly and doesn't tell the truth. But part of that is not only on her. The people who are asking the questions have to be about the business of asking the questions without, in the briefing room, without fear or favor. And the reality is, is that this particular White House has punished reporters. It wasn't that long ago that we were all talking about the Associated Press and the fact that they were being excluded from not just press briefings, but like, they were excluded from anything with the president, the wires, the Associated Press not being in the room. And what was the public response from the other reporters in the room? They literally would walk into rooms where the Associated Press was kept out of and not even ask a question on their behalf. So I do think that the reporters in the briefing room are struggling through their own way of how can they effectively do their jobs in this environment. And Caroline Levitt and Donald Trump understand that very much so. The President is nothing if not a master marketer. I would absolutely give him that. And they understand pain points. They clearly understand leverage. Just to be clear, Joanna, I worked with all of these reporters when I was at the White House. I just, you know, some of the things they allow the Trump folks to get away with, some of the answers they just. They just let them walk away from. I am aghast because I'm like, that would have never happened a year ago. That would have never been sufficient a year ago. The President of the United States seemed to be sleep in a event in the Oval office for about 20 minutes the other day. And then someone who was at that press conference passed out behind him, and he stood up and didn't even turn around and check on him. I think the President just woke up. I don't know what happened happen. Where are the questions about that? This is what I'm talking about being graded on the curve. It's like we all just moved on. Now, to his credit, he came back when they finally resumed the press event, and he seemed very alert and awake. I don't know if he got a Celsius, a Red Bull, a cup of green tea, or an espresso, but are you. Y' all seriously trying to tell me that if Joe Biden was sleeping oval office for 20 minutes on camera, that wouldn't have been the only thing. No reporter would have asked questions and said, excuse me, excuse me. It seems like the President is asleep.
- [31:48]
Joanna Coles
Simone, you mentioned Trump falling asleep for 20 minutes in the White House. Is that a national security concern?
- [31:54]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I think it could be for sure. To me, when I saw that, it made me. It brought up the questions again about, okay, what is the actual apparatus at this White House? Who is actually in charge here? Because that can't be the first time the President fell asleep. You know how I know? Because they didn't bat an eye. They didn't. That is not the first time the President fell asleep. So when that happens, who is making the decisions? I think about when I've got my notebook here, when the President was doing these public signings of these executive orders, and they come in and they explain to him what the executive order is, and he's like, oh, okay, yeah. Well, sir, is that the first time you. Is this the first time you are hearing about this. Did the President not get, did the president sign off on this in advance? Who is signing off on the particulars of what is happening in this White House? I hearkened back to Stephen Miller a couple weeks ago doing interviews with reporters, and he was using terms like I and we. When I worked at the White House, it is not I or we. It is the President, the president and the vice President. But you serve at the pleasure of the President. And so we're using I statements. Are you the one making the decision, Stephen Miller, about these strike force teams? How much aware is the President of what is going on? These are all questions, I think that deserve to be asked. And he fell asleep for 20 minutes and it wasn't even a, wasn't even a blip. Joe Biden. If Joe Biden was asleep for 20 minutes in front of liberal cameras, baby, it would beit would be breaking news for three weeks.
- [33:30]
Joanna Coles
There's a lot of argument, and you've referred to it, that Donald Trump is available and he's transparent in terms of what his plans are. When you were at the White House, was there an attempt to shield Joe Biden from the press and from the public because he wasn't up to the job?
- [33:49]
Simone Sanders Townsend
So I would say no. And I worked in the White House in the first year and I know that there are, you know, people have many thoughts about what happened that year and then in years after in that Biden White House. But I will say it's my understanding that the thought was that they didn't prioritize legacy media and legacy press like they didn't. And by they, I mean some of the advisors to the President didn't think that the Sunday shows, for example, were important. That, you know, that's a relic of the past. Now I think that there's arguments to be made either way. But on one hand, you are still, you got to play, in my opinion, you have to play ball, right? So whether you think they're important or not, some people are still watching them and the press corps thinks it's important. So if you don't give them anything, you give them room to say a whole lot of extra things. So you have to give them some kind of access, their thought. And again, advisors to the President. When I worked at the White House, the thought was, well, he does a lot of gaggles. And so, you know, he goes over, he speaks to the reporters. But did he do a lot of formal sit downs? No. And did he not? And I think the thought that he didn't do them because he couldn't is wrong. I think the reality is he didn't do them because he didn't want to. And maybe that's just a tougher. Like, that's just like a. Oh, that's maybe a little more crass way to a crass explanation. But in knowing the President, President Biden, Biden, and in knowing the people that were around him at the time and having spoken to him many times since I had left the White House and recently, I think that that is true. It's not that he couldn't. I don't think he wanted to. And frankly, I don't think some of the people around him wanted him to. Because remember when, way back when Joe Biden did that, he did a press conference. It was one of a few press conferences that he did at the White House and It was maybe 40 minutes. And it was during that press conference where he, he essentially said that he doesn't know how Vladimir Putin could continue to be the President once this is all over of Russia. And then the next morning or the next day actually afternoon, people tried to walk back, staff were walking back. The President's comments, to be clear, Joe Biden said what a lot of people actually believe to be true, what he believes to be true. But the staff didn't like his answer. And I just think like, well, the President of the United States, this happens with Donald Trump a lot too. Like, Donald Trump will say some things and sometimes, sometimes the staff doesn't like the answer. Privately they'll be like, oh, but the difference is publicly they'll defend him. I think that whether you like what the, whether you like the unfilteredness of the President or not, at the end of the day, they are in fact the President. But nobody is like, kept Joe Biden in a box and was like, you.
- [36:22]
Joanna Coles
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- [38:32]
Joanna Coles
And I'm back with Simone Sanders Townsend from msnbc. So let me ask you something. When we saw him at the now infamous debate with Donald Trump, he didn't appear to be capable of finishing certain sentences. That can't be the first time that that had happened to him. Do people in the White House know that he couldn't do this? I don't understand how he could get to that debate in that condition. And people in the White House have not seen that?
- [38:59]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Yeah, I don't know. I had never seen that when I had worked for Joe Biden. And I was looking at the debate shocked just as much as everyone else texting. The people whom I know had been in debate prep and said, well, what is going on? And they all said the same thing, right? He has a cold, he's been traveling. But again, this goes back to like the mechanics as you are. You want to put your candidate in the best position to succeed. So if you remember, the president had just done these back to back trips to Europe.
- [39:27]
Joanna Coles
He'd had 10 days at camp David.
- [39:29]
Simone Sanders Townsend
To prepare, though he was out campaigning domestically. I just don't think the schedule boded well for what they had going on.
- [39:37]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so you just pointed out that Donald Trump fell asleep for 20 minutes in the White House. He's also had a Crazy schedule. Should there be an age cutoff for the president?
- [39:48]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I don't, I'm not going to go so far to say like, oh, if you are, you know, X amount of age, you can't be the president. But I do think that this is what primaries are for, right? This is what this is. This is the way our system is set up, that the people get their opportunity to evaluate who they think the president should be. And I do think that that is what primaries are for. Primaries are supposed to be a rigorous, that is a test of the candidates. So, you know, if they're up to the case, up to the challenge or not.
- [40:16]
Joanna Coles
Should there have been a primary for the successor to Joe Biden?
- [40:20]
Simone Sanders Townsend
You mean after he, after he stepped aside, after he decided he wasn't going to be the Democratic nominee?
- [40:26]
Joanna Coles
Well, after that infamous debate.
- [40:27]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Okay, after the infamous debate, he was still the nominee up until July.
- [40:31]
Joanna Coles
But the fact the infamous debate pushed him into eventually having to step aside.
- [40:35]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I just. I just don't know when a primary would have been had.
- [40:39]
Joanna Coles
Well, you would have had it at the dnc, right? You would have had an open convention.
- [40:42]
Simone Sanders Townsend
And how do people think that would have worked out? I think that it sounds good, but I think mechanically, you know, I used to be a DNC member. I was a DNC member for about five, almost six years. And so the mechanics of the Democratic National Committee and the membership, there's like 500 some, there's a couple hundred delegates, candidates that will make the decision, that would have made the decision about who the nominee is. I don't think the strongest position for the party and the candidates on the ticket up and down the ballot, not just the top, but I'm thinking, you know, the House members, so on and so forth, the state legislative folks would have been to have a wide open convention where you didn't know what was going to. What was going to be the culmination of that. And then you would have, because the convention was at the end of August, essentially. So you would have September, October and November to run a robust campaign and win. I think that that is bad politics and it's just unfounded.
- [41:43]
Joanna Coles
You worked for Kamala Harris. She isn't running for governor of California. And what appears to be happening is that she's gearing up to run again in 2028. Should she.
- [41:56]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I think that she should do whatever she wants to do. The question I think a lot of people are asking, well, do you think that she willshould she run? Because do you think she can win? I think If Kamala Harris decides to run for president, knowing her, it is because she has calculated that she can win the race in a primary, that she can become the Democratic nominee. Again, it's too early to tell. I think these midterm elections, frankly, coming up will give a better roadmap of kind of where people are and then what the vice president does in those midterms. Remember going back to 2020, 19, 2020, nobody thought Joe Biden was going to be the Democratic nominee. I know. I interviewed with all those people, and I ended up working for Joe Biden. They were like, he is the last person that's going to win this race.
- [42:37]
Joanna Coles
What was it that made you change your mind?
- [42:40]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I think the president had a very. Then Vice President Biden had a very clear reasoning for why he was in the race and what he wanted to do. And he had really relationship with people in the states that I think that I thought would bode well for him. He had a very clear vision on what he wanted to do that was a little inspiring, but also pragmatic. And knowing Democratic primary voters, like this is what they're looking for. And his proximity and association to Barack Obama very much so helped him to be very clear. You know, he served for eight years. Look, I think that Kamala Harris, she could be the nominee in. In 2020. Pardon me, 2028, maybe the primary is going to be very robust. And again, at this time, prior to 2008, we didn't know it was going to be Barack Obama. Everybody thought it was going to be Hillary Clinton. And then Obama emerged and things happened within that primary, and he came out victorious as a Democratic nominee and went on to become president. So she could be. It could be her, but it could also be somebody else. I just think, though, given what we're dealing with right now, anybody that thinks they want to be president, put your name in the hat, honey. Go. The people that are saying, well, Kamala Harris should not run again. Well, I don't think Kamala Harris is the reason she lost her race, to be honest. I think the people that were running Kamala Harris campaign made very strategic missteps that resulted in the race not being victorious. How you got a billion dollars, you spending money advertising on the spear. But people organizers in Nevada and Arizona organizing African American, Latino communities can't get their budgets approved. Make it make sense. It doesn't. Okay. And we see how it all worked out. So I just think that she could be one. But I also think it's a very large undertaking. You made the point earlier that she wasn't on the campaign trail in Virginia and New Jersey. And. And if I were one of the folks advising the Virginia, New Jersey campaign, I wouldn't have asked for her because that is a look back, like these campaigns should not have been about relitigating what just happened. And it was too fresh for voters. So we'll see what Vice President Harris does over the next couple of months and weeks. Is she out there on the campaign trail in the midterms for folks? She was out there for Prop 50. She was at the rally. She raised money for it. She was a part of the media campaigns. But what else does she do in these midterm elections? Where is she asked to campaign?
- [45:05]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so you're now a co host on msnbc. Are you planning to get back into the races in 2028? Do you want to go back into the White House again if you can find the winning candidate?
- [45:19]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I'm very happy with what I'm doing now, Joanna, and I do not desire to go back on the campaign trip. Look, when I left the White House at the end of 2021, beginning of 2022, I left on my own volition, right? You know, people asked me to stay. I could have stayed, but I wanted to do something different. And when I came to msnbc, soon to be Ms. Now, this was me making a pivot. I love politics, I love campaigns. I also love media. And when I left the White House, I decided that I didn't want to, like, go away, right? I didn't want to, but I wanted to go do something where I could still be impactful, influential, have conversations and just be a part of this ethos and apparatus. And what we do at the weeknight every Monday through Friday is we are having those real conversations. I was in Cleveland about a week and a half ago, and people were coming up to me at this event I was at for one of my mentors. And they said, oh, I feel like I know you. We have dinner together every night.
- [46:18]
Joanna Coles
And.
- [46:18]
Simone Sanders Townsend
And that is what we want. When people are sitting down watching our show, they are sitting down, they're having dinner with us, they're having a cocktail or their water or their juice or whatever it is they're drinking and their meal. And we are discussing what happened that day, what's going on in the world and the ethos of politics. And we're giving our take and our analysis, and we hope that you walk away with just a little bit of a deeper understanding or thinking about something differently than maybe another show. Didn't show you, so. No, I'm very happy with what I'm doing now. I just, you know, I'm not trying to leave my free makeup, Joanna. I just. There's nothing. Nothing that's gonna take me away from the. From the. From the freelancer.
- [46:56]
Joanna Coles
Nothing better than those makeup artists at msnbc.
- [46:58]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Shout out to Shaida. Okay. She's great.
- [47:01]
Joanna Coles
What did you think when you saw the new signage in gold go up for the Oval Office?
- [47:08]
Simone Sanders Townsend
You want to know? My honest initial thought was, who doesn't. Who need. Who doesn't know it's the Oval Office, because who needs to sign? What is this about? Why does the President have so much free time? These are the questions we need to be asking. Why was he so intimately involved in the renovating of a bathroom in a residence? Help me understand, given everything that is happening out here in this country, how the President has time.
- [47:37]
Joanna Coles
So you spent a ton of time working in the White House. What did you think when you woke up and discovered that the East Wing had been totally demolished?
- [47:47]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Oh, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. And my first thought was what they are building is essentially going to be bigger than the structure of the White House itself. I think the White House is only about, like, 55,000 square feet. And. And what? Donald Trump. This ballroom that they're saying they're building is almost twice the size of that. So how does that work? But also, you know, the PIAC operations, the bunker, if you will, of the White House, it sits below the East Wing. When I saw the photos of, like, the digging and how deep. This can't just be about the ballroom. So what else are they building? What else are they doing? There is a lack. The lack of transparency. Transparency about what is actually happening there. Those were all the questions that were elicited for me. And then what. The companies that bought in or that gave money, donations to the ballroom, why did they do that? Like, what was their reasoning? And I just heard Jamie Dimon last week, I think he did an interview on CNN with Erin Burnett, and she asked why JPMorgan Chase did not give to the ballroom effort that, you know, a lot of other companies did. Why didn't you? And he essentially said, because they deal with a lot of. They have a lot of. They have their hands in a lot of different pots and that they have to be conscious of what the next Justice Department would do or say about their participating in something like this. And that just made antennas go off for me. So what did the other companies get for doing this. I think that there are a lot of questions and frankly, one of the things Congress could do if Democrats do get back the House is to aggressively, aggressively investigate and do some oversight around that.
- [49:31]
Joanna Coles
Will you be watching the Amazon documentary about Melania for which our first lady has gotten paid $40 million?
- [49:39]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I will be skipping right on past that on Prime.
- [49:42]
Joanna Coles
Simone Sanders Townsend I don't think there's anything you don't have an opinion on. And I bet the Democrats wish you would come back and handle their campaigns for them. But thank you so much for joining us.
- [49:55]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Thank you.
- [50:00]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so what I found really interesting about that was that Simone worked in the White House and knows when something like the president falling asleep doesn't command panic among the people around him. It's because they're familiar with this behavior and he's done it before. She knows because she saw it head herself with a different president. So if you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. We are independent media, so we really appreciate your support and feel free to leave a comment on Simone's point of view. Don't forget as our first lady would have us be beast. And a special thank you to our beast level members. Come on. How can you not join and be a beast level member? Come on. Herbie. Andrew, Mellor, Fulvia, Orlando Laz Conde, Sandra Clark, Bonzo Val Love, Francisco Bocock, D.C. karen White, Heidi Reilly, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley and Andrea Hodel. A special thanks to all of you and thank you to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Erssen and Jesse Millwood. And we'll be back tomorrow with Inside Trump's Head.
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