The Strange Reality Behind Trump’s Phone Calls

Summary

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The Strange Reality Behind Trump’s Phone Calls

Podcast: The Daily Beast Podcast
Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Michael Wolff
Date: February 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engrossing episode, Joanna Coles is joined by journalist and author Michael Wolff for a deep dive into an oddly fascinating topic: the central role of the telephone in Donald Trump’s personal and political life. Drawing from years of direct experience, Wolff shares candid insights about Trump’s phone habits, how—and why—he calls people, the unique ways he engages (or dominates) conversations, and what his approach to communication reveals about the man himself. The episode serves as both a character study and a look behind the scenes at how power, personality, and loneliness are intertwined via the ever-present phone.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Obsession with the Phone

• Constant Communication: Trump "must always be talking to somebody," whether in person or on the phone. Even with others present, he’ll often be simultaneously on a call.

  “If there are not people in the same room as he is, who he is talking to...he is on the phone, or often when they are there, he is on the phone with someone else.” — Michael Wolff (02:52)

• Purpose of Calling: Early on, Trump’s calls to journalists were driven not by outrage over being written about, but rather by exclusion—he was upset not to be included, regardless of relevance to the story.

  “It's not, you wrote this about me and it's wrong. It's you didn't write this about me. And because you didn't write this about me ... the article is wrong.” — Michael Wolff (05:52)

2. Directness & Transparency

• Calls Reporters Himself: Unlike most public figures, Trump often calls journalists directly rather than using PR staff, and he prefers direct, oral communication.

  “There was something kind of nice ... honest ... about the fact that Donald Trump called you himself.” — Michael Wolff (08:04)

3. The John Barron Persona & Self-Leaking

• Self-Leaks: Trump has a long history of leaking stories about himself, using the alias ‘John Barron’ in his New York days—and staff still jokingly use “John Barron” as shorthand for information leaked by Trump.

  “Within the White House … if something appears … where does that come from? They go, John Barron.” — Michael Wolff (04:54)

4. Trump’s Phone Habits as President

• Rotating Call List: Trump’s circle of regular phone contacts is dynamic but mostly unchanged, featuring Fox News personalities, real estate associates, and the occasional journalist.

  “The call list kind of morphs, but slowly...people on his call list...I know these people.” — Michael Wolff (18:07)

• Dominance, Not Dialogue: It’s a one-way street; Trump rarely seeks input—he’s “always on transmit, never on receive.”

  “There's never a conversation. What do you think about her? What do you think I should be doing...He doesn’t want that. He wants to tell you what he thinks and then for you to confirm that.” — Michael Wolff (28:50)

• Loneliness as Motivation: With few real friends or close family nearby, Trump uses phone calls as a surrogate for human connection but fails to achieve genuine interaction.

  “He’s lonely, and this is his way of reaching out and sort of dominating the person he’s talking to.” — Joanna (19:11)

• No Off Switch: Calls start as soon as he wakes (around 7 a.m.), and late-night “Truth Social” posts fill any remaining silence.

  “He’s lying in bed calling people.” — Michael Wolff (22:51)

5. Technological Preferences and Avoidance

• No Email or Texting: Trump is averse to emails and texting, possibly due to dyslexia, dislike of leaving a “trace,” or both.

  “He does not...and continues not to use email...It's all a verbal thing.” — Michael Wolff (12:13)

6. Staff as Gatekeepers and Handlers

• Phone Management: Staff sometimes change Trump’s number or remove contacts to limit unwanted calls (e.g., Rudy Giuliani or certain reporters).

  “They changed the number so Rudy Giuliani couldn't call him anymore...Sometimes the staff will take his phone and take people out of the phone.” — Michael Wolff (01:50 / 36:58)

• Assistance with the Device: Sometimes Jared Kushner or aides hold and dial the phone for Trump, who may struggle with dialing or rely on speed-dial.

  “I believe Jared got the person on the phone and then handed the phone.” — Michael Wolff (12:09)

7. A Broadcast—Not a Conversation

• Monologue Style: Whether in person or on the phone, calls with Trump are largely monologues—occasionally unmoored and incoherent, but always performed as “broadcast.”

  “It's just broadcast and it's frequently incoherent.” — Michael Wolff (33:59)

• Interchangeable Ears: The content is often repeated to whoever is willing to listen, indicating that for Trump, the listener is incidental.

  “You are...just a person on the end of the phone...That can go on for literally anyone.” — Michael Wolff (21:54)

8. Rewards & Repercussions of Being on “The List”

• Inner Circle Dynamics: Regulars can expect daily calls—and sometimes business perks.
• Dealing with Hostility: Falling out of favor—such as being sued by Trump—results in removal from his contact list and exclusion from “the show.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Being Called by Trump:

  “You don't have a second to kind of process that the President of the United States is calling you up ... then he launches into whatever he's going to say.” — Michael Wolff (15:23)

• On the End of a Trump Call:

  “He does the thing...It's a set of instructions: 'You let me know about this,' 'Let's get together' ... but sometimes it happens.” — Michael Wolff (20:58)

• On Technology Avoidance:

  “It's very much inside his head—don't email; I don't make that mistake.” — Michael Wolff (13:05)

• On Connection and Isolation:

  “He doesn't really have a marriage. He doesn't really have...friends.” — Michael Wolff (33:08)

• On Each Phone Call’s Purpose:

  “What he's looking for is confirmation for what he already thinks.” — Michael Wolff (28:50)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:41] — The Trump Phone Narrative Begins
• [02:31] — Why a Phone-Focused Episode?
• [03:36] — Wolff’s Early Calls with Trump (Landline Era)
• [04:54] — “John Barron” & Self-Leaking
• [10:32] — Introduction of the iPhone to Trump’s World
• [12:27] — Trump’s Disdain for Email/Texts
• [15:23] — What it’s Like to Get a Call from Trump as President
• [18:07] — The Morphing, Enduring “Call List”
• [19:11] — Is Trump Just Lonely?
• [22:51] — Morning Routine: Trump Calls from Bed
• [28:50] — How Trump Seeks Only Confirmation, Not Advice
• [33:57] — Accessibility to Journalists vs. True Transparency
• [36:58] — Staff Blocking or Enabling Communication
• [38:07] — The Phone as Grappling Hook to Reality
• [39:52] — Closing Reflections on Why the Details Matter

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, breezy, and sprinkled with humor—equal parts anthropological study and darkly comic social commentary. Joanna’s wry observations spar with Michael Wolff’s world-weary familiarity, creating a sense of exasperated fascination with their subject. The episode delivers both rich storytelling and incisive psychological reading: Trump’s relentless need to be heard, his inability to connect, and the absurdity—and danger—of leadership conducted by monologue.

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Episode Takeaway

This episode offers a rare, detailed look not just at Trump’s idiosyncrasies, but at how personal quirks can shape power in modern politics. The phone isn’t just a tool—it’s a lifeline, a broadcast channel, and a window into the isolation and compulsions of Trump as a figurehead. For those wanting to understand the man beneath the constant media coverage, this is essential listening.

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“In a government of one, it is most vital to understand who this person is, why he's doing what he's doing, what he's thinking...This is not about politics. This is about Donald Trump.”
— Michael Wolff (39:52)

Transcript

[Michael Wolff]

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[Joanna]

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[Joanna]

Do people call him?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Joanna]

And do they call him direct on the cell phone?

[Michael Wolff]

If you have the number, yeah.

[Joanna]

Right. Does he distribute his number sort of wildly?

[Michael Wolff]

I wouldn't say wildly, but somewhat. If you have the number, it's somewhat complicated because the number then changes. Like they changed the number so that Rudy Giuliani couldn't call him anym.

[Joanna]

They changed the number so Rudy Giuliani.

[Michael Wolff]

Couldn'T call them anymore?

[Joanna]

Yes.

[Michael Wolff]

And then. Oh, and then sometimes the staff will take his phone and take people out of the phone because they don't want him calling this person often. A reporter.

[Joanna]

Michael.

[Michael Wolff]

Joanna.

[Joanna]

Where are we going? Where are we going? Oh, God, we're going back there again. But we're doing a special issue inside Trump's head.

[Michael Wolff]

Inside Trump's telephone head.

[Joanna]

Yeah. We're doing a special episode today where we are focused on one of Trump's tools, which is the telephone. We've had so many comments from people wanting to know more about how he uses the phone, and we thought, why not? Let's do a special episode focusing on it now.

[Michael Wolff]

And let's set the context. He is always on the phone. If he is notif there are not people in the same room as he is, who he is talking to and literally talking to, since they don't talk to him.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Talking out, he talks to them. If they are not there, he is on the phone, or often when they are there, he is on the phone with someone else. So part of the thing, part of the. Part of what's important to understand is that he always must be talking to somebody.

[Joanna]

Okay, so let's go back in time to when you first had your first calls with Donald Trump. You were at New York magazine.

[Michael Wolff]

So I was at New York magazine and I was the media columnist for New York magazine. And media is what? Donald Trump. That's a kind of catnip for him. Who's the. I know how this would have gone. Who's the media guy? Get me the media guy. Anyway, he found out I was the media guy and then he started to call me up.

[Joanna]

Okay, so I want you to set the scene, though. So your phone is ringing. And at this point, is this pre cell phone? Is this a landline?

[Michael Wolff]

This is pre cell phone, yeah.

[Joanna]

Because I worked in New York magazine and I can still remember my number, I think.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna]

Okay. So the phone would ring and you didn't know who it was or would it come up with caller id? Donald Trump?

[Michael Wolff]

No, I don't think that there was. There was caller ID then.

[Joanna]

Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

I think I got a call and maybe I got a message first, I don't know. But it was then Michael Donald Trump or. Yeah, Michael Donald Trump. And then he would go into it.

[Joanna]

Did you get his John Barron name?

[Michael Wolff]

No, I never got that. It was always Donald Trump.

[Joanna]

And John Barron was the name that he would pretend to be when he was calling with stories about himself to the New York Post. He would pretend he was a publicist called John Barron who was really Donald Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And they. And they still within the. Within the White House. When there is a leak, when something appears in the New York Times or the Washington Post and where does that. That come from? They go, John Barron.

[Joanna]

Oh, that's so interesting. So he's still leaking stuff about himself.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, yes, but now he doesn't do it, that he doesn't call up the Washington Post and say, this is John Barron. But when he does do the leaking and he does leak himself, and then the staff knows that. Where did this come from? Well, it didn't come from us, so where must it have come from? It must have come from John Barron.

[Joanna]

So funny. All right, so set the scene. You're sitting there at New York Magazine at your desk. The phone rings and it's Donald Trump. And what is he usually ringing about?

[Michael Wolff]

He's ringing about some article, and almost always, as I recall, an article that he thought he should be in.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

So it's not, you wrote this about me and it's wrong. It's you didn't write this about me. And because you didn't write this about me and didn't include me in this article, the article is wrong. You don't understand anything. Who is that? And then it was.

[Joanna]

Would he be sort of abusive and critical?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, but it would always be of someone else. Who is this? Who is this other writer saying these things? That's a. That's. That person is a moron. Obviously, it's me here. This happened because of me. And then this and that. And I would go, yeah, okay, okay, you know, I'll pass it on. Or, Right. Or so right you are. And I kind of. I mean, it was always amusing, semi amusing. And, you know, in thinking back, you think maybe he didn't mean it to be amusing, but it was. And then you could always go, you get off the phone and then you could go, some guess who I just heard from?

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And remember, Donald Trump at this point. And this would have been the late 90s, early 2000s, was a kind of a joke figure. So, you know, why not? Well, you could. It was. I can hear the voice. I mean, I can hear the voice partly because in the years since, I've heard it so often, but he was, you know, and he didn't really, even then, want to hear from you. He didn't want to hear a justification. He didn't want to hear an explanation. He wanted just to tell you why he should have been in this article. And it wasn't brief.

[Joanna]

And were there any other people. I use the word important sort of loosely, but were there any other people who would do this?

[Michael Wolff]

You mean other people in New York.

[Joanna]

I mean, captains of industry or heads of media companies that would call you and say this piece? What are you thinking about? You missed this. It should have been about me.

[Michael Wolff]

No, all of the other calls were, why did you say this about me? How could you have said this? And it was usually by their PR people.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

So there was something kind of nice about the fact. I mean, transparent or honest or different about the fact that Donald Trump called you himself.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

He didn't have his PR people calling and There was a sense that he liked to speak to me. Does that make sense? I mean, kind of.

[Joanna]

Well, he liked speak to reporters.

[Naomi Ekparigan and Andy Beckerman]

Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

But even individually, when. And I think it's part of Donald Trump's charm in, let me use air quotes, that when he spoke to you, you thought that he was, you know, he was really focused on you and it was as though he wanted to speak to you, he liked speaking with you, which is the only reason, the only explanation for why he did it so often.

[Joanna]

Right. And so, of course, back in these days, he was a Democrat, he was a New York character. Bit of a joke.

[Michael Wolff]

And yeah, it was never very political, as I recall.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

There was no politics to this.

[Joanna]

So he's calling you on the landline.

[Michael Wolff]

And it was often about articles that he would have no reason to be in.

[Joanna]

Right. So he just wanted your attention. He wanted to talk to you, he wanted your attention. He wanted to speak to a reporter. He was laying down tracks for when you next wrote about him.

[Michael Wolff]

I suppose. Yes.

[Joanna]

And how little did you know at that point how much you would have written?

[Michael Wolff]

No, and there was also, and I think it's important that that moment in time, you didn't really want to write about Donald Trump. You didn't really want Donald Trump in any stories that were written because he was kind of a cliche.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, he was written out. He had. I mean, it was clear that anything, any story that Donald Trump was in, by that point, he had shoehorned himself into.

[Joanna]

So it's so interesting. At the time, I was wr for first the Guardian and then the Times of London, and the one person that the news desk would ask me to try and get all the time was Donald Trump. And I never once tried. I would think, oh, such a cliche. It's the only New Yorker they've ever heard of.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Yeah. Right. So that's a towner's figure. That's an out of towners.

[Joanna]

Totally. The news settings say, can you get an interview with Donald Trump? And I'd think, I would rather shoot myself and get Donald Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

You could have.

[Joanna]

I could have done. Well, who knew? But I had no interest in talking to him because I understood within the context of New York, he was thought to be a joke, but he was totally an out of towner's view of a New Yorker. So the cell phone comes out, I think the iPhone comes out in 2006. Right. Does Donald Trump move to the iPhone? Because what's so remarkable is how he really never seemed to have emails or.

[Michael Wolff]

Texts No, I don't think he does right away. Eventually moves to. To an iPhone. Yes. In 2016. He certainly. He certainly did. I mean, that would have been the first point at which I'm observing him during the campaign. And I remember, actually, so I'm sitting with him. This first interview that I do with him is Inis in his house in Beverly Hills.

[Joanna]

And this was for the Hollywood Reporter. When he was thinking of running.

[Michael Wolff]

No, he was running. And I mean, that would have been in maybe April 2016. So he's already. It's already clear that he will almost certainly get the nomination at this point. But anyway, I'm in the house and I remember he made a. He had to call someone, and Jared was there. Jared held the phone.

[Joanna]

Jared held the phone for him.

[Michael Wolff]

Meaning in other words, Jared, I need my phone. So. Whereas we all keep our phones.

[Joanna]

Oh, I see. So he didn't keep the phone on him. Jarrad was the phone holder.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Right.

[Joanna]

And did Jared have to press the buttons for him or.

[Michael Wolff]

I believe so. I believe Jared got the person on the phone and then handed the phone.

[Joanna]

To because perhaps his little fingers can't reach the buttons.

[Michael Wolff]

But at any rate. So there's a couple of interesting things. The fact that he does not. Did not then. And continues not to use email.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

So it is all a verbal thing. It's not. The phone is. This is not about exchanging information. This is about talking.

[Joanna]

And he doesn't use emails and texts because he has dyslexia. Because he can't read. Why? There's been so much suspicion around it.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, I think all of that is probably true, but I think that the other thing is, and I've known this with other kind of disreputable people, they prefer the telephone.

[Joanna]

Right. Well, nobody wants to leave a trace.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And I think it's very. It's very much inside his head. Don't email. I don't make that mistake.

[Joanna]

Do you think he is actually unable to read? I mean, there's been so much speculation about it, and he has that very sort of spidery signature. Do you actually think he can't read?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I know. I mean, the people around him debate this all of the time.

[Joanna]

Do they?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. You know, what does he. You know, he can read something. He can read headlines.

[Joanna]

I mean, he seems to read speeches from teleprompters.

[Michael Wolff]

Headlines about him. But he seems also not to read speeches from teleprompters.

[Joanna]

But he reads enough of a speech from a teleprompter to think he must be Able to read unless he just remembers it. Because often people with dyslexia.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I mean, I think, I think obviously there's something, something going on there. Obviously he does something. I mean, he does, he does posts on Truth Social and he writes the posts. They're often not incoherent. It's true.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

But he, but he does within the White House, I mean, he doesn't. He reads minimally. I mean, it is very important to treat him that way. If you give him something to read, he won't read it. That's a mistake on your part.

[Joanna]

So, so he likes information coming in orally and he likes to talk.

[Michael Wolff]

No, he doesn't really like it. Information, of course. You said, you mentioned coming in orally because he doesn't like information coming to him. He likes to dispense information or dispense whatever it is he dispenses, which is not necessarily information.

[Joanna]

So when does he.

[Michael Wolff]

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Joanna]

Where does he get his information from? From television.

[Michael Wolff]

From television.

[Joanna]

Right. Just. He basically watches television or he's on the phone.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna]

Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

And the phone is always, you know, you never get a word in edgewise.

[Joanna]

So I remember Anthony Scaramucci, who, as we know, was his head of, you know, White house comms for 11 days, just saying that you were on a rota, that he would, you know, he would call you late at night, you would pick up the phone, he was already talking. He would be already talking when you hung up and you knew he was just calling through everybody he knew. Tell us what it's like to get the call.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, the interesting thing is that you don't have a second to kind of, kind of process that, that the President of the United States is calling you up.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Because then he launches into whatever he's going to say. So he's irrelevant. He's going. And then you're trying to understand what the hell he's talking about. And then you think, you think, first thing, you're not sure it's him. Is it him? But then you think, yes, I know this voice.

[Joanna]

Does he call or do they say, Mr. Wolf, please hold for the President of the United States.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, I've gotten both calls.

[Joanna]

Okay. So sometimes it's just directly him, and sometimes you get it goes via his. Natalie Harp or whoever.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, exactly. Yes. And then it'. Sand. That's kind of an interesting moment. Can you hold for the President?

[Joanna]

What are you saying?

[Michael Wolff]

This is the White House. Can you hold for the President?

[Joanna]

Right. Not right. Not right now. Can you ask him to call me back in five.

[Michael Wolff]

But then he just launches in. And you don't know. You don't know the context. You don't know. You're not clear about what the subject is. You're not clear about the purpose. You're not even clear that he has called the right person. So you're kind of almost paralyzed.

[Joanna]

So you're sort of in the headlights.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And then you're thinking, I'm on the phone with the President of the United States, and shouldn't I get off of the phone? Shouldn't this call end? Because, you know, the world might need.

[Joanna]

The world is on fire, Donald.

[Michael Wolff]

And then he goes on, and then he keeps going on. So you're on the. You are on the phone with the President of the United States for. And then you're looking at the. It's 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, it's got to end. You're thinking, when is it going to end? How do I end it?

[Joanna]

So how can you end it? He's the President. He's the more powerful person on the phone. Don't you have to wait for him to end it?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, I suppose, yes. But then you feel a kind of compulsion to help him end it, to get on and to, you know, attack Greenland, whatever. And now a word from our sponsors.

[Naomi Ekparigan and Andy Beckerman]

Support is available 247 with VRBoCare.

[Michael Wolff]

We're here day or night, ready whenever.

[Joanna]

You need help, because a great trip starts with the right support. And Michael Wolff and I are back. Well, you know where we are. We're inside Trump's head. What is he using the phone for?

[Michael Wolff]

I think he's using it for, you know, a human connection. I mean, I don't think he knows how to make a human connection. So without the actual connection, he has the phone and he is constantly, you know, and ISO, there's this other thing. When I report on this, when I'm reporting on Trump, I know a whole set of the people he calls and calls frequently, regularly. People on his call list. And the call list kind of, kind of morphs, but slowly. And so you can kind of track these people. I know these people. I can call this. Have you heard? Yes. And then they will tell you what he has told them because they're always so I think everybody in some way reacts the same way. What was that about? And so. And so it's to go over it with someone else.

[Joanna]

Right. But it's very interesting that you say he uses the phone for human connection because his daughter's not there, his wife's not there. He's lonely. Right. What I'm taking from this is he's lonely, and this is his way of reaching out and sort of dominating the person he's talking to.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, it's certainly dominating because you never get a word in edgewise.

[Joanna]

And is he trying stuff out on you because you say that?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, no, Totally. Totally. And he's dissing people all over the place. I mean, it's unfiltered, and you're just listening to it, but it jumps all over the place. So you don't really know. Was there a point here? Are we going somewhere? Is this. What's the takeaway? You don't know. And you're always kind of trying to sort of get a word in edgewise. Why? I don't know. Except that. That seems like what you do if you're a. You know, that thisif he's looking for a human connection, you want to kind of, you know, feel sorry for him. Let's have a little conversation here.

[Joanna]

You feel sorry for the President of.

[Michael Wolff]

The United States, or else just the novelty of saying, Mr. President, Mr. President, but it doesn't matter. It's all you get to say. And then he's over, and then he's onto something else.

[Joanna]

And how does he wrap up the call? So he's called you. You've put it on speakerphone because you can't believe is calling you. And it's a historic moment.

[Michael Wolff]

And I've sat in my house with everybody in my house, right.

[Joanna]

Listening.

[Michael Wolff]

Just. Just like.

[Joanna]

Well, it's the most famous voice in the world, Right. How does he wrap up a conversation? Is he like, gotta go, bye. Or does he even say bye? I have friends who have phone calls with me, and they don't even say bye.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I got. I have those. Those people, too.

[Joanna]

They're probably the same people.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, he does the thing. Let's get this. You. You let me know about this. I mean, it's a set of instructions. You let me know about this.

[Joanna]

A set of instructions.

[Michael Wolff]

And I want to see you. Let's get together. Let's sit down about this. And that, of course, doesn't particularly happen, but sometimes it happens.

[Joanna]

Well, less so. Now he's suing you?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna]

Well, saying he's suing you.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. At the moment, I seem not to be his friend, as he's noted.

[Joanna]

Yeah, that's not a friend. That was his comment when he said that you'd conspired with Epstein to do harm to his presidency. So he'll be suing you and Trevor Noah, who made a joke about him.

[Michael Wolff]

So that's not a friend.

[Joanna]

That's not a friend. No. So he still thinks of you as a friend. So he calls you and he's already in the conversation already. Right. And then he ends it with.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, it's as though he could be having this with anybody. This is not. You are not. And you kind of realize this. You are. You don't occupy an individual space there. You're just a person on the end of the phone.

[Joanna]

You're a pair of ears.

[Michael Wolff]

And that can go on for literally anyone. And so as I often track this, you know, and I'll say, well, what did he say to you? And then it will be the same thing he said to me or the same thing he said to the last person I knew he is called.

[Joanna]

And how early in the morning does it begin and how late in the evening does it go on? Because I'm conscience.

[Michael Wolff]

Literally. First thing I think is.

[Joanna]

And what is first thing for him?

[Michael Wolff]

As soon as he gets up? You know, I don't. I think he's up at about, you know, 7ish. And then he's.

[Joanna]

He's lying in bed calling.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, he's lying in bed calling people.

[Joanna]

I can't even imagine. Do you think, what do you think he sleeps in? Does he sleep in white pajamas? Does he sleep naked? Does he sleep in like boxes and a T shirt? When. I mean, you know, we had Jen Welch on the Daily Beast podcast and she said he's like a teenage girl. And then we got lots of comments in saying teenage girls are much more organized and much nicer and much more thoughtful than Donald Trump, which I thought was a fair point. But she meant that he's just obsessed with his phone. He's lying in bed on his phone. He's tracking things on his phone.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. I did have. I curiously have had a discussion with him about sleepwear because someone. I can't remember the story, but someone mentioned something about his robe, that he came down in his robe. And I don't know why this involved. Involved. Must have been a white towel involved me. But he said, of course there's robe. Can you see me in a robe? I'm not a robe kind of guy. You don't think that I'm a robe kind of guy?

[Joanna]

Of course he's a robe kind of guy. Don't you think he'd be in a white hotel robe with Mar A Lago?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. I was thinking, what is a Robe kind of guy. I wear a robe, but I don't know. No, I mean, he was incensed about the robe, the accusation or the characterization that he would be in a robe.

[Joanna]

I'm like, okay, I would totally think he's a robe guy. And I feel like I've seen photos of him in a big, thick, white hotel room.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm just telling you, it's. That's all I know.

[Joanna]

I still can't imagine. I wish I understood what he said. Yes.

[Michael Wolff]

No, no, I don't think you're a robe kind of guy.

[Joanna]

Right. So he's in his bed.

[Michael Wolff]

He's with the hamburger.

[Joanna]

No, the cold hamburger from the night before. I wonder. So I can't imagine what he's wearing. Is he wearing a gray T shirt and boxers? Is he. Is he wearing nice white piping pajamas?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. I can only tell you the robe.

[Joanna]

Okay. All I know, so he's not wearing a robe, but he's sitting in bed clutching his phone. The morning has begun and he's calling to see how it's playing. The televisions are on. He's obviously the lead story in almost every channel.

[Michael Wolff]

Right.

[Joanna]

Do you think he has the newspapers brought to him?

[Michael Wolff]

No, because he would have to read them.

[Joanna]

Right. But we know he used to read things because he used to cut them out and send them to the journalist with his squiggly thing on it. Right?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Joanna]

All right. So breakfast comes. English muffin, bit of bacon, maybe a ham.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. This is out of my. I don't know these.

[Joanna]

These details, but does he start calling people? Does he start calling people immediately?

[Michael Wolff]

He does call me again, though. I will.

[Joanna]

Let me know. Okay. Please ask him. So does he.

[Michael Wolff]

Joanna wants to know.

[Joanna]

Please tell him. And he'll be like, joanna who? But I want you to. So he wakes up in the morning and immediately he's on the phone.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna]

Okay. And then he comes downstairs and he's still on the phone. He's just never on his own is the point.

[Michael Wolff]

He's never on his own. He's always speaking to someone. His mouth is always running. There is. I don't think that there is. There must be, but I can't imagine it. A moment of silence in the middle of the night. What happens?

[Joanna]

Well, he. Truth socials in the middle of the night, right?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna]

So he wakes up. That's the first thing he does.

[Michael Wolff]

So. Yes.

[Joanna]

So how come he's disciplined enough not to write emails or text, but he's figured out how to truth social Well.

[Michael Wolff]

I think the truth, social is a specific thing. It's a broadcasting to the world. This is what he knows. This is public. He wants it to be public. What he doesn't want is private statements.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, but it's interesting, this call list that he has, you know, so this is the real. These are the real advisors, you know, the people around him. The employees are not really advisors. I mean, they're minions. They're people in his wake. They're people fetching him things. They're people picking up the candy wrappers. They're not the people he is turning to for advice. Now we'll get to how he gets the advice he wants to. But there's this set of people and it changes, but it doesn't change by that much. You know, there's Fox people. Hannity has been consistently on this list. Sometimes Tucker gets on this list. There's a set of people in New York, real estate people, often real estate people who are consistently on the list and have been for. For many years. These are the people who he calls constantly and who he kind of feeds lines to. So they know what is expected of them, what they have to say. So he'll often lead with. I mean, a lot of his conversation is personal. I mean, like he was suing me the other day. But the people around him, Pam Bondi, you know, he'll diss her. He'll call up and say, you know, I think she's kind of. She's kind of. She's kind of a dummy, don't you think? And then somebody will say, yeah, I think she's a dummy.

[Joanna]

So he's saying things because he wants to hear back his own opinion.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly.

[Joanna]

So he's never realist what he's trying to put together as a policy or.

[Michael Wolff]

He'S trying to figure out. I'm not even sure that. That it goes that far. It's just he needs the. He's looking for confirmation for what he already thinks. There's never a conversation. What do you think about her? What do you think I should be doing in this? He doesn't want that. He wants to tell you what he thinks and then for you to confirm that.

[Joanna]

Exhausting.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Joanna]

Exhausted. I mean, he must dread his friends around him, I think. Must dread him calling, don't they?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, I don't. I mean, I dread him calling, but, you know, on the same time, he's the President of the United States. Right. So it's a weird kind of thing. Now he doesn't call, hasn't called me that many times, but some of these people hear from him all of the.

[Joanna]

Time now and define all of the time. Like every day.

[Michael Wolff]

Every day. If you're on the. If you.

[Joanna]

If you're on the inner circle.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. You could be an everyday caller. No, I think you get things from that. So you're on the inner circle and you're getting. I don't know, you then become part of a crypto deal. I haven't become part of a crypto deal, though. If I were a friend.

[Joanna]

Well, you're not a friend anymore because that's why he's suing you. It's not a thing a friend would do to conspire with Jeffrey Epstein against his presidency.

[Michael Wolff]

Actually, there's a Jeffrey Epstein point here, too, because Jeffrey Epstein was not speaking to Trump, certainly during the period that I was talking to Jeffrey Epstein, but Jeffrey Epstein was talking to many of the people who were speaking to Donald Trump. And Epstein knew the pattern here, knew who was on the call list.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And then those people on the call list would call Epstein and then Epstein would call me.

[Joanna]

That's just brilliant. Brilliant for all those people who thought you were making stuff up in your books. In fact, you were.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna]

Right. So interesting. So is there something about the fact that a conversation you have on the phone is once removed from sitting with the actual person that Donald Trump likes?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. Because actually, when you sit with him, it's the same thing. It's just a monologue.

[Joanna]

So the phone is merely a device to carry on.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly right.

[Joanna]

Carry on talking and carry on not being on his own.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. I mean, I think the phone is transparent. It just is. You know, get me so and so I am just continuing this conversation. I am just talking. And this is the way I talk now because I don't have anyone in front of me to talk to. So I use the phone and then I talk and then I talk to this person, that person.

[Joanna]

In the Melania movie, there is a wonderful bit which actually they put in the trailer because she clearly wants us to know that she's not really with this man and they have a transactional marriage. Or she turns up when she needs to, but he calls her to see if she's understood that the vote certification has happened, he's now officially president, and she's like, no, I will watch on news. So she has no interest in hearing him. But it was interesting that the information was conveyed on the telephone. They weren't together, and she was putting that in the trailer because she wants you to know that at the most important time of his life, when he's about to be ratified as president for the second time, against all odds, she is not with him. But again, you're mindful of the fact the phone is the vehicle. He's having to call his own wife, who is not looking on the television, which gives you real insight into their relationship. And she puts it in the trailer. She is signaling as loudly as she can as if she's got a huge mirror on the top of the.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, it's as mirror as possible. And the phone is. I mean, he doesn't really have a marriage. He doesn't really have. I mean, there is no one around.

[Joanna]

He doesn't really have friends. Yeah. How did he end up as our president?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And the curious thing, I don't know of any women who are on his regular call list.

[Joanna]

Well, he's surrounded by women who look like younger versions of his wife.

[Michael Wolff]

But the call list are men, rich.

[Joanna]

Men, important men, golfing buddies, real estate buddies, and the odd journalist. And he does call journalists. I mean, one of the things he does do, which is unusual, certainly for a president, is he calls journalists directly.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. I mean, in a way, he's much more accessible and transparent than most politicians, but in another way, he's not, because it's just. You don't. There's no interaction there.

[Joanna]

Right. And also, he's frequently telling lies.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. It's just broadcast and it's frequently incoherent.

[Joanna]

I remember someone telling me that he used to call, and perhaps he still does, reporters at the New York Times. And one time he called a number that was usually the number of a journalist, but an intern happened to be sitting there and picked it up. And he went, oh, it's Donald Trump, you know, and he said, well, I'm just the intern. And Donald Trump started giving him advice as an intern, which was actually a rather sort of endearing moment, I think. And I think the intern was sort of eyes on sticks and then probably couldn't get rid of the president either. But it is fascinating that it is a device for connection, as you say. And also, he's constantly on broadcast. He's always on.

[Michael Wolff]

But it's a weird connection, which, I mean, it's not a real connection, or he doesn't know how to make the connection or doesn't really want to complete the connection because it's all broadcast 100%.

[Joanna]

Right. He's always on transmit. He's never on receive.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And it is incoherent, which is the other thing to appreciate about this, I mean, it goes on. You think, my God, where are we going with this? This is like a pinball. We're there, we're there. And what is he talking about? Who is he talking about? You don't know what's going on?

[Joanna]

Do you think he's watching television while he's on the phone?

[Michael Wolff]

In my experience, I don't hear a television in the background. But then again, when he's on the phone, I'm kind of transfixed.

[Joanna]

I can't even imagine him doing things, though, like plugging his phone in and charging it at night. I mean, does he do what Arianna Huffington always says we must do, which is have a little bed for our phones and put it outside our room? Does he have more than one phone? Does he have them all lined up? Does he have one that he truth socials on and then the other that he talks on?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. And it's interesting also that other. And I just flashing on instances that someone is carrying the phone for him.

[Joanna]

Right. And do people call, you know, like.

[Michael Wolff]

Natalie Harp, the, you know, the human printer? The human printer is often the phone. Where's my phone?

[Joanna]

Snaps his finger, does it. He goes, where's my phone?

[Michael Wolff]

And once more, a commercial message.

[Joanna]

And Trump author Michael Wolf and I are back inside Trump's head. And do people call him?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Joanna]

And do they call him direct on the cell phone?

[Michael Wolff]

If you have the number, yeah.

[Joanna]

Right. And does he distribute his number sort of wildly?

[Michael Wolff]

I wouldn't say wildly, but somewhat. If you have the number. And there was a moment when they. And it's somewhat complicated because the number then changes. Like they changed the number so that Rudy Giuliani couldn't call him anymore.

[Joanna]

They changed the number so Rudy Giuliani.

[Michael Wolff]

Couldn'T call him anymore. Oh, and then sometimes the staff will take his phone and take people out of the phone because they don't want him calling this person often a reporter, so. Because he can't. Oh, that's the other thing. He can't dial the phone. The number has to be in the phone.

[Joanna]

So how does he dial? Does he just speak into the phone and say, hey, Siri, call?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he doesn't. He can just push the thing, somebody.

[Joanna]

So he's got a speed dial, and then he just presses the number.

[Michael Wolff]

So if they take you out of that, he won't call you. You've been disappeared.

[Joanna]

Right. And, well, I guess they. Who has the pass number to his phone? Who has the passcode? I wonder if it's facial that.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. You're in the weeds here that I have not been in.

[Joanna]

I'm just trying to imagine it all because the details are what make it such a fascinating story. And precisely because he seems so isolated, the phone is his sort of grappling hook to real life.

[Michael Wolff]

And then the other thing is, and it's interesting, anyone who has that number, he'll talk to. So, I mean, it is kind of instant access. You have that number, you call him up, and he will talk to you. Now, you might. You might not be able to transact the business that you wanted to transact, because he's just talking, but there you are. Your name will come up on the screen, he'll take it, and then off he goes. Delighted to talk to you.

[Joanna]

It's just. Well, well, well, well. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. If we get Donald Trump's number, we'll flash it up on the screen so we can all call him. We should actually have a conference call with him and our. And our B Beast members.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I'm sure he'd be open to that possibility. Just set it up.

[Joanna]

Okay, we'll try and set it up. All right. Another reason to become a B Beast member of the Daily Beast. We're independent media, so we. We appreciate your support. Leave us a comment. Would you phone Donald Trump if you had his number, and what would you say to him if you did?

[Michael Wolff]

That's not the right question. It's, what would he say to you?

[Joanna]

Yeah, because you wouldn't get a word in edgeways. Okay. What would he say to you? That's better. All right, Garfried, if you can't make a limerick out of that, I don't know what you can. I guess for people who've just joined the podcast for the first time and perhaps got to the end of it, should we just give them a line of why we do inside Trump's head and why we think, why we hope it's different to the way other people cover Donald Trump, which is. I'm obsessed by the details of his life, but also, we think of him as a character. Character is destiny.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, also, we think that in a government of one, it is most vital to understand who this person is, why he's doing what he's doing, what he's thinking, that we are all under this idiosyncratic rule, and we're the people trying to understand it. This is not about politics. This is about Donald Trump.

[Joanna]

Yeah. It's about character. It's about what is inside Trump's head.

[Naomi Ekparigan and Andy Beckerman]

Joanna hi.

[Michael Wolff]

I have to tell you about something.

[Naomi Ekparigan and Andy Beckerman]

That we're obsessed with. I'm Kevin Fallon.

[Michael Wolff]

And I'm Matt Wilstein and we are.

[Naomi Ekparigan and Andy Beckerman]

Hosting Obsessed, the podcast about all the TV shows, movies and entertainment newsmakers that.

[Michael Wolff]

We'Re all obsessed with. So make sure you subscribe to us on YouTube at the YouTube channel.

[Naomi Ekparigan and Andy Beckerman]

Make sure you follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for Obsessed the podcast and we will see you there.

[Joanna]

So the good news is we have so many Beebeast tier members now there are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team, Devon Rogerino Ryan Murray Rachel Passer Heather Passaro Neil Rosenhaus.

[Michael Wolff]

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[Naomi Ekparigan and Andy Beckerman]

Hey everybody, I'm Naomi Ekparigan. And I'm Andy Beckerman. We're a real life couple and a real life couple of comedians and we're the hosts of the podcast and Couples Therapy. We're the only comedy relationship podcast ever. Yeah, I said it and we're so good. We've been written up in both the New York Times and we made Grindr's list of top podcasts. Yes, we're giving you that high, low appeal trust on the show. We talk to guests like Bob the Drag Queen, Angelica Ross Bowen Yang, Janelle James, Danny Pudi, Darcy Carden, Paul F. Tompkins and more. All about love, mental health and everything in between. And we answer your relationship questions. We are two unlicensed comedians just trying to help you out. So open your hearts, loosen your butts because we got a lot of laughs and a lot of real talk just for you. Download Couples therapy wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michael Wolff]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last.

[Naomi Ekparigan and Andy Beckerman]

Laugh and Our Star Studded the Daily Beast [e-mail] podcasts if you enjoyed this.

[Joanna]

Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast.com membership podcast and sign up today.