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- [00:00]
Danielle Moody
Consider this your sign to skip the what's for dinner debate. Tonight, Outback steakhouse has a three course meal starting at just $14.99. Start with soup or salad, then take your pick of down under entrees like our juicy Towering Burger or Flame grilled Shrimp and for dessert, New York style cheesecake plus $8 cocktails all day every day. Three courses starting at $14.99. Tell the group chat you'll see them at Outback, but price and participation may vary.
- [00:30]
Andy Levy
Don't raise your voice to prove you're right. Focus your mind with every word of irrefutable fact you can find, because conviction is the calm that comes when you.
- [00:40]
Ben Schwartz
Know that you really do know. People who read the Financial Times know.
- [00:46]
Andy Levy
That they can shape their own perspectives with confidence because their viewpoints are informed by genuinely unbiased journalism, clarity and conviction. Source ft subscribe to the financial times@ft.comSourceFT.
- [01:00]
Danielle Moody
A PSA from Instacart It's Sunday, 5pm you had a nonstop weekend. You're running on empty and so is your fridge. You're in the trenches of the Sunday scaries. You don't have it in you to go to the store, but this is your reminder. You don't have to. You can get everything you need delivered through Instacart so so that you can get what you really need. More time to do whatever you want. Instacart for one Less Sunday Scary. We're here.
- [01:33]
Andy Levy
Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN HLN guy and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left.
- [01:42]
Danielle Moody
Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today I'm an unapologetic woke commentator on America's threats to democracy.
- [01:51]
Ben Schwartz
And I'm producer Jesse Cannon and I'm.
- [01:53]
Andy Levy
Here to sure things don't go too.
- [01:54]
Ben Schwartz
Far off the rails.
- [01:56]
Andy Levy
We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media and beyond.
- [02:02]
Danielle Moody
Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears.
- [02:10]
Andy Levy
What a great show we have for you today. Emmy nominated writer Ben Schwartz is here to discuss his latest piece for the nation, the not so golden Age of MAGA troll comedy, and why this new era of right wing shock humor isn't exactly landing then because there's so much news to be news, we couldn't cover it all in one news segment. Andy and Danielle are going to talk about the leadership of the Democratic Party and the direction they should be going and whose example they should be following. But first, let's have some fun. So, Danielle, I am a Columbia graduate, and the school fight song starts with the words, roar, lions, roar. Because we are the Columbia Lions. But more recently, it seemed a lot like whimper, lions, whimper. Over the weekend, Colombia, which has been under attack from the Trump administration, pretty much agreed to terms with their hostage taker, their bully. However you want to frame it, they caved. And they are going to accede to the Trump administration's demands in order to not lose $400 million in federal funds. They are going to change their policies with regard to protest. They are going to do some not great things with the Middle Eastern studies department, and they are going to hire a new internal security force of 36 special officers who will be empowered, according to the New York Times, to remove people from campus or arrest them. That's what you want on a college campus. They're also banning the wearing of face masks on campus with exceptions for religious and health reasons. Even the New York Times called it a stunning level of deference to the Trump administration from a top private research university. I'll call it something else, which is pathetic. It is absolutely pathetic. It is embarrassing, and it is, unfortunately, exactly what the Trump administration wants. And it should be noted that there was a quote out on Monday from a Trump administration official basically saying, this is not enough from Colombia. We're going to need to see more. Which is exactly why, if you give the bully your lunch money, guess what happens the next day at lunch.
- [04:25]
Danielle Moody
I mean, I would go even a little bit further in saying this is why you don't negotiate with terrorists. At the end of the day, I think really about the staff and the students at Columbia University, and I think about the climate that their capitulation has created. A climate that is not just about whimpering, it is dangerous. If I had kids that were at university at this time, I would pull them out, because there is no saying who is going to be roughed up by their new law enforcement. And what is it. It's going to be students of color who they go after, students that look a certain way, that have accents, that speak a certain way. Universities are supposed to be our labs of innovation, of thoughtfulness, of critical thinking of these young minds that are set to take on our present day and future problems as a country and as a world. And what Columbia University, by these actions that they have taken, first off, they have received no guarantee that they're getting that money back. There was, there was no contract that they signed with the administration that said if we meet your white nationalist terrorist demands that in return we're going to receive the $400 million back. No, you've decided to take a gamble that says that if you not only not not even bend the knee, break the lay down on your fucking back, that somehow you are going to curry favor with a fascist regime. And you would think that people who are at the center of thought would understand. First off, this is not how you move. I wonder, Andy, I mean, again, you are an alumni of Columbia. I wonder what is going to happen to their enrollment over the next several years. Because I can't imagine that it's going to stay the way that it is. I can imagine that it's going to plummet because why in God's name would I choose to go to college in this restrictive and fascist like environment? I have no idea.
- [06:37]
Andy Levy
Yeah, that's a really good question. I wonder if it won't be so much that enrollment plummets as it is a different type of student will want to enroll there.
- [06:48]
Danielle Moody
It's still in New York City. I just want. I just want to put it out there. It's still in, you know.
- [06:53]
Andy Levy
No, that's true. But the vast majority of Columbia students are not from New York.
- [06:57]
Danielle Moody
That's true.
- [06:57]
Andy Levy
Because I do think that's part of the Trump administration's end game here, is they want to change the makeup of the student body. They want to change the makeup of the faculty. And what they want is to do what DeSantis did with new College in Florida and turn it into a worthless, conservative institution. But, I mean, I want to focus on this one thing that I vaguely mentioned at the top with the Middle Eastern Studies Department. I should say the full name of the department is the Middle Eastern, South Asian and African Studies Department. The White House had wanted this department to be placed under something called academic receivership, which is sort of a means for the sort of the federal government to take over monitoring that department. And what Columbia has done is they said, well, we're going to appoint a senior administrator, a vice provost, I believe, to oversee the department. They're not calling it a receivership, but as the New York Times reports, faculty members say that that's exactly what it resembles. This is so dangerous. And the idea that whether Columbia is appoint an administrator or the federal government is directly taking charge of it, there's no candy coating what is going on here. Colombia has caved to Trump administration demands that the department that covers the Middle East, South Asia and African Studies teach what they want it to teach. And I cannot think of anything more dangerous for a private university, except maybe hiring a bunch of rent a cops with the power to arrest people on campus. Two for two there, Columbia. Great job. All of this is so awful. And you're right. And look, I have. I don't know if I'm doxxing her here. My niece is a senior at Columbia, so she's out of there in a couple months. I'm glad she's going to be out of there. I really hate what the school is doing here and I really wish that I were a big donor or any kind of donor so I could inform them that I'm stopping. But unfortunately I'm not any kind of donor, so my words don't matter.
- [09:08]
Danielle Moody
I think that what we're seeing here, and you know, when it goes to Columbia University, to the next group, which is the Paul Weiss firm, was threatened by this regime for God forbid a private company do business outside of Republican circles. Evidently that that is becomes a huge problem. And this is a law firm. Rather than them stand on their whatever integrity that they have, even if it is just we do business with whoever the hell we want because we're a private firm, have decided instead to give the Trump administration $40 million in free legal work, like hello quid pro quo, like hello grift. And this is just okay, where does it end? So if you're not throwing money at the feet of this administration, if you're not throwing money at Donald Trump's feet, if you are not laying down right and putting your students and your faculty on the line like Columbia, and you're not throwing money at them like Paul Weiss, then evidently you are on a list and being targeted. I wish that more of these institutions, these firms would actually band together and say, we're not bowing down. We don't need to do business with you, we don't need your money. We will find another way. Because we're going to put our mission, the integrity of our students, whatever it is, before the needs of this fascist government. And they're not doing that. And I think that the messages that are being sent, whether it's corporations that roll back dei, whether it's this law firm, Columbia University and other universities that will follow suit, is, you know, democracy does not die in darkness. It dies decision by decision in broad daylight of all of these individuals, institutions, companies deciding that they're going to cover their own asses. And this is how they're going to try and cover their own asses. Even though we have heard and had so many people on this program who have said do not obey in advance, if there is one thing that we can offer, and I guess no one is listening, or at least none of these people are listening.
- [11:27]
Andy Levy
Yeah. And I want to get to something that you touched on, I believe, when you talked about Columbia and you said that this will happen with other universities. That's the biggest danger here, is that when you've got a university like Columbia with an ungodly endowment, when you've got a law firm like Paul Weiss that is one of the biggest law firms in the country and they are bending the knee, the message that that sends to other universities, to other law fir, to other businesses is, holy shit, if these powerful institutions can't fight back, then what chance do we have? We can't fight back either. And so you're right. I think this is unfortunately going to lead to a domino effect. And what we've done here is the Trump administration has proved that its bullying works, that its blackmail works, that it's, you know, to use your phrase, that it's terroristic demands work. They're not going to stop there. Why would they? They're going to keep on going because they know that so many of these institutions are, at heart, base cowards. And for all their talk about, and I'm talking about Columbia here, for all their talk about the importance of education, the importance of knowledge, the importance of learning, the importance of free speech, what we're seeing here is a lot of that is turning out to be lip service. And it's absolutely horrifying to me as an alum, but it's absolutely horrifying to me as an American and as a human being to watch this happening. There's a woman named Rachel Cohen. She is an associate at another huge law firm, Skatton Arps. She wrote a letter towards the end of last week to her firm that said that she was going to give two weeks notice unless the heads of that firm agreed to a bunch of things that would, in effect, mean that they would agree that they are going to stand up to Trump. There's a good chance she's going to lose her job over this, possibly not only because it went viral, so it might be a bad look to fire her. But regardless, she is an associate at a law firm and she has more courage than the full partners at Paul Weiss, than the administration at Columbia University, if she can do it. It is so embarrassing that they can't and yet that's where we are, Danielle, they can't. I just wish somebody would show that kind of courage. I don't know, Danielle. Maybe in the political realm, I'm so.
- [13:50]
Danielle Moody
Glad that you teed that up the way that you did. Because, you know, all of these headlines are enough to make you feel like there is nobody, that everybody has decided to go quiet, to bend the knee, to obey in advance, and to walk away from any responsibility that they have to actually try their best to defend democracy, whether it's in a private institution, a private university, or what have you. And most recently, the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, has decided that not only are those people who have the audacity to protest the world's richest man and to hold protests at his dealerships and to drive his stocks into the ground, or better yet, Elon Musk is doing a great job of driving his own stocks into the ground. She has, I will say the media has used the word warned. I'm going to use the word threatened. Representative Jasmine Crockett, who is a former guest of the show and a very outspoken progressive member of Congress, in saying that Representative Crockett, who has made no qualms about going after Elon Musk and saying that she totally supports the Tesla takedown protests that are happening. This is what Pam Bondi said on Fox's Sunday morning show. Quote, she is an elected public official, so she needs to tread very carefully because nothing will happen to Elon Musk. And we're going to fight to protect all of the Tesla owners throughout this country. I'm sorry, what? Your job as Attorney General of the United States is to be the private police for the world's richest man, and then the wealthy people in this country who can afford Teslas. That's the job here. These are the people that Pam Bondi feels needs her protection as the head of the Department of Justice and that she's telling Representative Crockett. And I want just folks to hear what she actually said. Representative Crockett said this, quote, I have learned as I serve on the Doge Oversight Committee, that there is only one language that the people that are in charge understand right now, and that language is money. And so she said, March 29th, it's my birthday, and all I want to see happen on my birthday is for Elon to be taken down. She's talking about taking him financially down. And she said so. But this comes from the same party that has literally put Democrats in crosshairs on their websites, who have called Democrats enemies from within, who have called their political opponents terrorists who have done some of the most heinous things, who joked about Nancy Pelosi's husband being attacked that put him in the hospital and in rehab for months. And somehow Representative Crockett saying that Elon Musk should be taken down, that is worthy of a threat from the Attorney General of the United States to an elected official. It's wild, Andy.
- [17:08]
Andy Levy
Yeah. And unlike Columbia, unlike Paul Weiss, Jasmine Crockett is not backing down. She went on MSNBC after Bondi said her ridiculous things, and she said, quote, I have never promoted violence whatsoever. Yet I've also never made excuse for those violent actors, such as the ones on January 6th. So, Pam Bondi, if you have an issue with terrorism, maybe you should talk to your boss about locking back up those guys that he let out that participated in January 6th. Good for her. You see how easy that was? Do you see how easy that was, Danielle?
- [17:43]
Ben Schwartz
Do you.
- [17:47]
Andy Levy
Like, all she had to do was speak the truth. And all she had to do was get up there and say, excuse me, Madam Attorney General, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Again, Jasmine Crockett, not that she has no power, but she's a junior congressperson. She's a junior congresswoman. And again, I have to contrast that with Columbia University and Paul Weiss, two incredibly powerful institutions. They are showing no backbone at all. And Jasmine Crockett, without even thinking twice, is just like, no, no, you don't threaten me for standing up for what I believe, for exercising my First Amendment rights, for being part of a protest. And goddamn, it's good to hear. Thank God for her. And we just. We need so many more people like her walking the halls of Congress.
- [18:39]
Danielle Moody
Yeah, it's time. Because the people that are there, like the Chuck Schumer's and the Hakeem Jeffries, need to step aside. They need to get out of the way, because they are part of the problem. And I believe that Jasmine Crockett, AOC and others are part of the solution. So bravo to her.
- [19:02]
Andy Levy
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- [19:32]
Danielle Moody
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- [19:52]
Andy Levy
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- [19:55]
Danielle Moody
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- [20:02]
Andy Levy
Want to upskill on one of the most effective ad channels out there? With ACAS Ads Academy, you can learn everything you need to plan and run podcast advertising advertising campaigns completely free. Whether you're new to audio or ready to sharpen your skills, our self paced courses fit your schedule and finish with an industry recognized certification. So if you want to grow your expertise and stand out in a competitive industry, head to go.acast.com academy Ben Schwartz is an Emmy nominated writer who's written for the 84th Academy Awards and David Letterman, as well as publications like the Nation, Vanity Fair, the New Yorker, the Baffler, and the New Republic. His latest piece for the Nation is titled the not so Golden Age of MAGA Troll Comedy and he's here to talk about it. Ben, thanks so much for coming on.
- [20:55]
Ben Schwartz
Oh, thanks for having me, Andy.
- [20:56]
Andy Levy
So my first question is the obvious one. Are you just mad that comedy is legal again?
- [21:02]
Ben Schwartz
Yeah, that's what really when it was illegal, I felt so much safer on the streets. You can walk down the streets of Los Angeles, not worried about any drive by jokes or anything like that. And thank you Elon, for making it legal again and killing it at the same time, you know, legally.
- [21:20]
Andy Levy
Yeah, that does seem to be a little bit of what's going on here. So before we get to the modern day practitioners of this right wing troll comedy, I want to talk about the idea that as you say in your piece, this is in a sense nothing new back in the day. And I need to emphasize how old I feel saying that this was back in the day we had guys like Andrew Dice Clay, right?
- [21:43]
Ben Schwartz
Yeah, Andrew Dice Clay came up in the 80s and then Howard Stern and Don Imus were nationally syndicated radio. They used to call them shock jocks. I don't know if anybody still uses that term today. Yeah, they did a lot of this humor and back then they were just kind of like at least Stern and Imus kind of did it with this facade of being like, actually we're, you know, kind of liberal, kind of centrist, and we're just kidding. It's all just kidding. But, you know, eventually it kind of really felt like with Imus especially, I don't think he is. He really doesn't seem to be. It's nothing new. I mean, there was always, you know, Don Rickles used to do this. And I wouldn't necessarily call Rickles right wing, but this kind of humor that's ethnic based, religious based, gender and all that, there's different kind of versions of it. There's Rickles kind of late night, Johnny Carson version, and then there's the kind of darker edge stuff, the angriest stuff that I think I'm as used to do. We live in this multicultural, diverse country. You know, it's the melting pot country. So people are going to talk about it, which is fine, make jokes about it, which is fine. But then we also have to admit there's people who just don't like that about America. Right. And I do not include Don Rickles in that. I don't include most of the people who do it in that. They're just talking about what it's like to live in America with this, you know, incredible mix of people we have. But some people let, you know at a certain point they're kind of not kidding. And, you know, somebody like Rickles, if you ever saw his live act, he would spend a lot of time in a really sentimental and almost maudlin way, talking about how he didn't mean it, but he didn't want anybody leaving that show for a second thinking that he did that was very important to him. And that's not important to people today.
- [23:31]
Andy Levy
No, I think that's right. And it is the reason, one of the reasons at least, that I agree with you, I would not put Rickles in that category. And Rickles, it just always seemed to me a lot of it was sort of like there was a sense that in the end the joke was on him when he was making those jokes. And, you know, a lot of his jokes, you know, particularly when he would talk about Sinatra or whatever would be like, he would talk about Sinatra and the mob and stuff like that and Italians. But in the end, it was sort of like it was Rickles saying, you know, here I am, this little schmuck, and you're Frank Sinatra.
- [24:07]
Ben Schwartz
Yeah. And he's also that cartoon character that he created of himself with just this. He's so angry about it. He's turned up, dialed up to 11 at all times. Everything takes him off. He seems kind of crazy about it, so you can't take him seriously. And he's also making fun of people who are his equals in many ways, or like you say about Sinatra, who are kind of powerful figures when he's. Sometimes I've seen him where it didn't quite work, where he'd find somebody in the audience to make fun of.
- [24:37]
Andy Levy
Right.
- [24:37]
Ben Schwartz
Who's being targeted. And there's a sense of nobody's safe. He makes fun of everybody. Sometimes you could see people were not comfortable with it. They didn't want to be the focus. It's another thing if it's one of his friends. If it's, you know, Jerry Lewis or Sammy Davis Jr. They're friends. That's the thing that always saves a Jeff Ross roast for me, at least in that regard. These comics all know each other, you know, and they're sitting there. Everybody gets a shot at everybody else. So you don't walk away thinking that somebody got beat up or bullied. Except for the Ann Coulter one, which was great for me.
- [25:10]
Andy Levy
Yeah, yeah.
- [25:11]
Ben Schwartz
There is this feeling of when you watch Colin Jost and Michael Che do swap jokes where they write the most vicious jokes for the other one to say they're cracking up, they're doing this to each other. And I do get the sense that they like each other. I'll be surprised one day if I'm, you know, when I'm 90 and reading another SNL book going, and secretly they despised each other.
- [25:33]
Andy Levy
Right, right.
- [25:34]
Ben Schwartz
They weren't jokes, really. They sure look like it. That's part of the thing. You're letting the audience know it doesn't matter. These are comics. And, you know, it's like Bing Crosby and Bob Hope Back in the Road movies. People love seeing comics roast each other. It's best when you can walk away knowing Bob Hope and Bing Crosby did not hate each other.
- [25:56]
Andy Levy
So let's talk about some of these modern day troll comics of whom you write and talk about how what they do is different from all these things that we've been talking about. I guess let's maybe start with Tony Hinchcliffe, who made some really, really lovely Puerto Rican jokes at Trump's pre election Madison Square Garden rally. What separates that from all these things we were just talking about?
- [26:19]
Ben Schwartz
That's a political rally. Those people mean it. I mean, they don't like people of color. They're the people I'm talking about who live in a multicultural, diverse society. Whether they like it or not, no matter how much they hate those terms, that's where they live. You know, if you don't like it, you know, find the whitest country you can find and go move there. You know, you shouldn't be deporting people of color. You should be the one leaving. I mean, I can't believe I'm at the point where I'm saying, america, love it or leave it. If you hate it that much, what are you doing here? I mean, I don't know about, like, when I meet people in LA or just all for deportations, and they're all for, you know, getting rid of immigrants who come here from south of the border. I just think you live in a city called Los Angeles, move to Pittsburgh. But that's the thing about Tony Hitchcliffe appearing at that rally. He is doing that show for people who mean it. I had seen him on the last Jeff Ross roast that went about Tom Brady. He's just another roast comic on that show. He's no better or worse at it than anybody else. I think he's with Jeff Ross and people like that Nikki Glazer up there. He's average. But when you the comic, when you are the rose comic at the hate rally, your jokes have a completely different context. There's no sense that the people you're making fun of are your friends or that any of them have a chance to speak back, like, you know, to punch back there, which usually roast comedy allows. So that's the difference with him. I mean, look, there are a lot of political comedians, Jon Stewart, Chris Rock. There are big Obama supporters. I don't think they're ever feel the need to apologize for that. If Hinch Kilif really is behind Trump all the way, then he's just. All he's doing is getting up there and supporting his guy. But, you know, Trump is really trying to silence people who make fun of him. You know, doing what Tony Hinchcliffe does for a living, making pretty brutal jokes about other people. Again, fine. But if you're supporting a guy who's also trying to shut criticism of him down and refusing to allow people into the country who are criticizing him or making fun of him, what are you doing? Like, how are you supporting that guy? And I just think that's the main point. I guess what I'm saying is, but if you're going to do the Trump rally, you're saying you do mean it because they mean it. And you can say Jon Stewart defended Tony Hinchcliffe in that saying. I find.
- [28:53]
Andy Levy
Yeah, that's what I wanted to get at.
- [28:54]
Ben Schwartz
Yeah. Jon Stewart says, you know, I find this guy funny. I have to say myself, I find him kind of funny at roast situations. But when you do that act at the hate rally, that's what that stuff is. That's the context of it. I don't know what Tony Hinchcliffe really thinks about anything, to be honest. I don't know where he's politically. I don't know what he means and what he doesn't. He's doing what he does. But when you do it there, you're committing to getting Donald Trump elected president. And congrats, Tony, you did it.
- [29:23]
Andy Levy
Yeah, no, I thought it was very interesting that you said that you do find him funny, and I think that's a totally fair thing to say. And I want to ask you about Shane Gillis you wrote about as well. And I'm not entirely sure I put him in the MAGA troll category, but maybe that's because I want to instinctively say all those guys in that category are just not funny. And I do think Shane Gillis is often funny. I mean, I'm not defending anything he said on his podcast that got him in trouble, but I have heard him make very, very funny jokes, tell very, very funny stories. So am I just kidding myself here? Am I just trying to say, oh, no, the MAGA troll comics are just, you know, they are untalented and unfunny, and so if I find someone sometimes funny, I'm not going to put them in that bucket?
- [30:16]
Ben Schwartz
Yeah, I don't put Shane Gillis in that. He seems uncomfortable with what he said. And I quote his podcast stuff that got him fired from snl. And it must have been just crushing for him to get fired from that gig. I mean, to be chosen for SNL and then get bounced before you even get a shot. And, you know, I was watching his special Beautiful Dogs, but he opens it talking about guys like that, guys who think, you know, I have that America first attitude. He was talking about going overseas to do shows and how great it is to walk around. I think America's number one, you know, we're the best country ever. And then he talks about. I think it was a waiter he was talking to said, well, you know, we don't have mass shootings over here. And. And I'm not going to unpack the whole bit. Shane Gill is very funny when he talks about, but he immediately punched a hole in that whole attitude. He just took the wind out of it because he's not stupid. And he made his podcast jokes, but he's opening that Special to talking about, in similar terms, talking about a guy who's trashing other cultures in other countries and has no comeback for that. That point. You have mass shootings over there and you're not doing anything about it. He's clearly got another dimension to him that I have not seen in somebody like Tony Hinchcliffe yet.
- [31:38]
Andy Levy
Okay, so let me ask, who do you put in that bucket? Who are the MAGA troll comics that are sort of on the top of your list?
- [31:45]
Ben Schwartz
Well, so far, from what I see, like, of Tony Hinchcliffe going to that Trump rally, he's the guy. You want to own it, Tony. I mean, and the funny thing about that, he was at that podium. The slogan they were using is Trump can fix it. You remember that? That was the slogan.
- [32:00]
Andy Levy
Yeah, sure, sure.
- [32:01]
Ben Schwartz
Yeah. Which is so weird to me because that British pervert Jimmy Saville had a TV show called Jim Will Fix it in which kids would write into him like, you know, my dog ran away. He was a golden retriever. He was beautiful. And then. And then J. Savelle would bring out a golden retriever, a new golden retriever puppy for this kid. I was like, yeah, well, okay, that fits great. All right, side note. But that kind of stuff. Actually, any of these guys, here's the thing. When you put them at the top of the bucket list, so to speak, the list. None of these guys are at the top of any list because they're not breaking through. I think any of them that hosted Trump, like Theo Von. If you're embracing Trump, that's the thing. He means it. It's. It's like, I'm not offended by jokes about, you know, race or religion or whatever. When it. When you create a context where I don't think you're a real Nazi. But when you. When you invite Trump on the show. And that's what Marc Maron. I quote Marc Maron in the piece saying, when these comedians bring him on the show or bring Nazis on their show, Nick Fuentes and whoever else, you're part of it. You can't step back and then say, now I'm gonna do jokes about my buddy Kevin Hart, or now I'm gonna do jokes about my pal Jeff Ross. You crossed the line.
- [33:21]
Andy Levy
No, for sure. I wanna talk about something that you referred to in the piece. And it's sort of the fascist vibes of troll comedy, what you call the sort of easy fit between troll comedy and fascism. Why do you think it's such an easy fit?
- [33:35]
Ben Schwartz
I think it's an easy fit because troll comics they tend to look like authoritarian leaders on stage. Like, if you see somebody like Dice Clay in his concert film, Dice Rolls. Both Roger Ebert and George Carlin compared that to a hate rally. You have this guy on stage kind of like, you know, in his leather jacket kind of stomping around. His audience is cheering him and saying all his jokes along with them like they're political slogans. Like the way a politician riles an audience up. You know, america First, America first. Or something like that. And when you see Dice Clay like that, it presents him as this powerful bully on stage that his audience loves. I think, you know, that film, that was the peak of his career. And then it went downhill really fast because he doesn't come across like Richard Pryor, the Sunset Strip. He doesn't come across like a comedian doing a great special. He's coming across like a political leader or something. I don't think it helped him. And I. And as George Carlin pointed out about him, Andrew Dice Clay does not seem like a hateful, angry person in his actual life or when you see him talking about it after that moment. I know Nora Dunn quit SNL over him being asked to host the show. And the New York Times really went off on the Madison Square Garden shows. And that's when he began saying, oh, this is just a character. You know, this is like Archie Bunker, which is kind of retconning it a little bit because I don't remember him ever saying that until that point, until his career was being damaged by it. I'm always skeptical of people who say comedy has to punch up and not down. I mean, there's all kinds of ways that comedy, the perspective of it can be manipulated. But he just came across like a bully, and that's not a great vibe for a comedian. The other thing about what separates Archie Bonker from that kind of troll comedy is there's several characters on that show who get right in his face and say, you're wrong, Archie. There's Rob Reiner playing meathead. There was George Jefferson when Sherman Hemsley was his next door neighbor. That was great watching Sherman Hemsley and Carol o' Connor go back and forth. Just two angry guys, right? No mercy with those guys. Between themselves, it was great. But you don't get that with Andrew Dice Clay in that moment. I've seen him on stage just telling stories. He's great. And unfortunately, he's stuck with that forever that he was that guy. Yeah, it's 30 some years ago now. He's done other things since then, but I wonder about a Tony Hinchcliffe who's branded himself with MAGA on his forehead. Now in this wave we're in right now where you see a lot of media trying to bring in MAGA voters and when you see like Amazon is rerunning the Apprentice, like anybody cares. This is the moment when it's going to work for them a year from now. I don't know about that. It's hard to get away from that.
- [36:36]
Andy Levy
It's such an interesting point. Unfortunately, I'm out of time. But Ben, thank you so much for coming on. I love talking about this subject and I really enjoyed your piece. Follow Ben on Blue Sky. He's at Ben Schwartz, Bsky Social. And Ben, thanks again for coming on. I really appreciate it.
- [36:52]
Ben Schwartz
Andy, thank you. Great talking to you after all these years knowing you on social media.
- [36:58]
Andy Levy
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- [38:52]
Danielle Moody
So there is just so much news that is happening on a daily and hourly and minute by minute basis coming out of this regime that we feel the need this week to do a bonus, to unpack where Democratic leadership is and where we think that it should be. We talked about this, I believe, last week on the show as Chuck Schumer, the minority leader in the Senate, decided to sell out what little leverage the Democratic Party had with regard to the passage of the Republican CR continuing resolution that would allow their draconian budget to pass. And members of the Democratic Party in the House had linked arms and said, we're not helping. We're not going to help Republicans pass this and unanimously said no. And they thought that Chuck Schumer felt exactly the same way until he didn't. And in the spirit of giving a shit more about his donors, in my humble opinion, than he does democracy. As the markets were kind of waffling under the possibility of a government shutdown, Chuck Schumer got lassoed in one independent and eight other Democrats to help the Republicans. And the pushback, Andy has been fast. It has been furious. People are showing up and protesting at his residence. He had to cancel his book tour or he said, postponed, because much in the same way that Republicans are not showing up at town halls, Chuck Schumer doesn't want to show up at his book tour because he knows that he's going to be met with. With not excited people wanting his signature, but people wanting an explanation over his capitulation.
- [40:42]
Andy Levy
Yeah, I don't like him, Danielle. I don't mean personally. I don't know him personally. Could be a great guy. I don't like him as the leader of the Democrats in the Senate. I think he is ineffectual. Look, we've talked about this not just with regards to Schumer, but with regards to sort of the part party leadership in general. They are not made for this moment. Schumer did an interview shortly after the whole CR fiasco in which he said he was sort of asked if we were in a constitutional crisis. And he said no. He said, we'll be in a constitutional crisis if Trump defies the Supreme Court. And people were like, what the hell are you talking about? He's already defying lower courts. He's violating the Constitution on a pretty much daily basis. And lo and behold, not long after that, he went on Meet the Press and he said he does believe we're in a constitutional crisis. And you know what? I'm glad he realizes it, or at least says he realizes it. But this is exactly the problem. He said something, he got a lot of blowback for it, and then he changed his position. That's not a leader. I mean, it's one thing to say, well, my constituents have spoken, and I understand now there was none of that. He just seamlessly went from we're not in a constitutional crisis to we're in a constitutional crisis because he saw that the original thing he said, I guess, didn't poll well or just didn't play well. This is not the person who should be leading the Senate Democrats. It just isn't. We need someone who actually stands for something and who will actually fight for things and won't cave and sit there and say, well, the CR was bad, but a government shutdown would have been worse. Yeah, a government shutdown would have sucked, but you literally had the federal workers saying a government shutdown would be preferable to making this deal with the Republicans. So you had the people most affected by this, in terms of their jobs completely disagreeing with you, and you ignore them. You either ignore them or you flat out tell them they're wrong and we don't need this anymore. Anymore. There have been calls for him to step down. He says he's not stepping down. I don't think he's going to step down because this is like, you know, I think we've said this before. Like, this is his life. This is what he has always wanted, and he's not going to give that up. And the problem with that attitude is it's not about your constituents and it's not about the country. It's about you. And that's who he is at this point.
- [43:12]
Danielle Moody
But I think, you know, you said it right when you said. And he changes his tune based on what the polling says, right? Based on what a focus group says as opposed to, like, what his constituents and what the people actually need. When he said that, oh, a government shutdown would be really bad, what the fuck do you think is happening right now? We've been in a government shutdown since January 20th. Since Donald Trump gave Doge and Elon Musk the ability to tear down agencies and fire now over 100,000 federal workers around the country when he's issued memorandums to roll back EPA protections and to shut down the Department of Education, we are in a government shutdown. So what did his move actually do other than to show just how weak Democrats are and the reason why we're here in this moment isn't just because of the fact that Republicans are rabid and, you know, just have this insatiability for hunger. It's because Democrats actually don't act as roadblocks and even try and stand in their way whatsoever and slow them down. And we see this time and time again. And so right now you have folks who are like my mother, who has said a staunch Democrat is given money every election, has said they better not email me. I don't want to email. I don't want to text. I'm not giving them another dime until they show some type of strategy and some type of leadership. And this mea culpa tour that he's doing, this junket on television where he's getting his hat handed to him by the women of the View. Yeah, right. By CBS Mourning, where. Where these anchors are even looking at him and being like, well, you caved and I'm going to say it to your face, since you don't want to face your constituents. I think that Schumer Jeffries, with his what do you want us to do? Shrug. They have all the leverage. They have all the power. They own the government. I thought that this was government foreign by the people. And the only people that seem to see this right now and see the opportunity baked in to this horrific moment that we're living in is Bernie Sanders and AOC and a handful of Democrats that are joining Bernie Sanders on his Fighting Oligarchy tour that is drawing in tens of thousands of people. You would think with their event that they held in Denver, Colorado over the weekend that brought in, I think, estimates said like 34,000 people, that we had an election next week. That's how big these numbers are. And they're out there not, not based on their focus groups, but based on the fact that they're going to these red places, to these states and having conversations that Republicans right now are too scared to have and Democrats like Schumer don't think are necessary.
- [46:09]
Andy Levy
You're right. It's Bernie and aoc. Out of the two of them, the only one of them who can be the leader or a future leader of the Democratic Party is aoc, which is not to deny great Bernie, but he's old and he's not the future of the party. But the fact that he and AOC are out there and she is now crisscrossing the country going to these various places and drawing huge crowds is one of the few bright spots for the Democratic Party right now. Tim Walls is doing something similar. I think we Talked about that on our last episode. The fact that we can pretty much name all of the Democrats who are doing what they should be doing is bad.
- [46:51]
Danielle Moody
Right?
- [46:51]
Andy Levy
We shouldn't be able to do that. We should be having to say there are too many for us to name. We don't have to say that. For all I know, listeners are getting tired of us talking about AOC and Jasmine Crockett and people like that every week, but they're the only ones doing it. And they need to be propped up. They need to be acknowledged. And yeah, the idea is, my God, wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to talk about AOC and Jasmine Crockett and Bernie Sanders every week? And we could talk about a bunch more Democrats who were doing this. I think that would make everybody extremely happy. Like you said, Bernie and AOC are drawing huge crowds. They're talking, like, I think they've said maybe 34,000 people in Denver. I'm at the point where I'm not sure who's more worried about this. Is it the Republicans or is it the Democrats, like Chuck Schumer, which sucks. But there is this strain of the Democratic Party that just hates the people to the left of them. And Chuck Schumer is very much a part of that. There are these moderates in the Democratic Party who have been. I don't know if they've just been infected by decades of James Carville and people like that, but they view the people to their left as almost a greater enemy than the Republicans. And they certainly spend more time, it feels like, fighting the people to their left than they do fighting Republicans. So that's the shit that has to stop. And we need to see more. And look, we're seeing it. Chris Murphy has been good on some stuff as he's become sort of more and more of a Bernie AOC esque populist. And maybe we're starting to see it. And I hope that we are.
- [48:28]
Danielle Moody
Yeah. Because I think at the end of the day, it's time, you know, and there are a handful. But I feel like maybe every week over the past. I don't even know how long we've been in this, Andy. I guess it's almost been three months of this regime. It feels like 35 million years.
- [48:46]
Andy Levy
Yeah.
- [48:46]
Danielle Moody
But the fact is that every week I feel like there is at least a name, a Democrat, being added and saying, you know what? Ro Khanna has decided to go into Bakersfield, California. A red, red part of California. He drew a couple of thousand people into a rally. There are people that are picking up what is clearly working for Bernie Sanders. And the thing that I love about what Bernie is doing, what Tim Walls is doing, but particularly Bernie Sanders, is that like you said at the top, he's not the new guard. Right. Bernie Sanders is 80 something years old, but he's doing what the establishment Democrats refused to do when the squad came into office in 2018. Refusing to say, like, this is a show of force. This is an older statesman linking arms with the future of the Democratic Party and going literally out on the road. Why is that such a hard concept for establishment Democrats to get, that we don't want people who are, quote, unquote, willing to work with the other side. The other side is throwing innocent people in jail. The other side is dismantling everything that has made America America. The other side is reintroducing segregated facilities. What is there to work with? So if you are not actively trying to work against them, if you are not forcefully, if you have no other power, as Hakeem Jeffrey said, than to engage people in a narrative and get people off of their couches and out of hopelessness and into action, then what is your purpose in this moment? And I think that Bernie Sanders, aoc, Tim Walls, Ro Khanna, others are taking up this mantle and doing what needs to be done, despite the Schumers and the Jeffries of the world.
- [50:34]
Andy Levy
Yeah. And I really do think that, you know, the difference between a Bernie and an AOC and a Jasmine Crockett and a Schumer and a Pelosi, and apparently a Hakeem Jeffries, is the former group is not afraid of the grassroots. So you see Jasmine Crockett getting involved with the Tesla takedown protests. You see AOC taking on Amazon, as she did a few years ago, and you see her and Bernie going out on this tour and talking to the people and being part of the movement that is so foreign to people like Chuck Schumer, it's like. Like to him, everything centers around Washington, D.C. and that's his base of power. That's where he operates. That's where he's comfortable. He doesn't like the idea of going out there with the people. I can't picture Chuck Schumer getting involved in a Tesla takedown protest. That just would feel very, very weird to even try to imagine. It's such a mindset difference. It's so obvious that what we need right now is the grassroots, is the AOCs and the crockets and the. Again, I'll throw in Chris Murphy sometimes I'm not his biggest fan, but he's been very good, at least on economic stuff. And the people who are not, who don't have this fear of the grassroots movement, it's almost like they look down on the grassroots. And maybe it's not even almost like, maybe it just is that they just look at the unwashed masses going to their silly little protests and they think, well, that's not going to get anything done. The way you get things done is to sit in your Senate office and roll up your sleeves and get on the treadmill next to a Republican. Which is something that was an example Schumer gave of how to get stuff done in the Senate is to talk to Republicans side by side on the treadmill at the Senate gym or whatever.
- [52:32]
Danielle Moody
That's an image I really didn't need.
- [52:34]
Andy Levy
No, not at all. For so many reasons, both real and metaphorical, but that's who he is. And you know what? Maybe in the 80s, maybe in the 90s, sure, that's how things worked. It just ain't how things work now. These Republicans are the Republicans that are backing Donald Trump as he illegally deports people, as he illegally puts people in camps, as he tries to erase people of color and women and LGBTQ people from American history, as he's trying to basically cripple the Social Security Administration. These are not people you sit down with and make deals with, as you said. These are people you fight back full throatedly against. And he just does not get that. And the AOCs and the Bernies and the Crocketts absolutely do get it. Yeah.
- [53:26]
Danielle Moody
And you know, it's time that the rest of them do. Goodbye, Schumer.
- [53:33]
Andy Levy
Andy Levy, Danielle Moody.
- [53:35]
Danielle Moody
Andy, how are you kicking off this week with your. Fuck that guy.
- [53:41]
Andy Levy
Oh, boy. I know, I'm just. Let me get that out of the way right off the top. On Monday on Fox and Friends, he had some interplay between the hosts that we could call instructive, although it's not something we probably couldn't have guessed. They were talking about the deportations that are taking place under the Trump administration without due process. That is in violation of the Constitution. And Lawrence Jones, who is one of the Congress co hosts, said, well, the President is saying that because he's using the Alien Enemies act, there doesn't have to be due process. And then Brian Kilmeade jumps in and says, I think that's a great point, but I also think it's not practical to think that we can do due process on 8 million people. Oh, my he went on to say, there's 22 million people here at minimum illegal already. Again, that number just seems to go up every day. And then he says, if we are going to give all these guys a day in court and a lawyer, we can't do it. They don't deserve it. Our system doesn't need to be double burdened. So I guess let's talk about this for a second. This sucked. I mean, all of this always sucks. But I actually liked Brian Kilmeade personally. But this is straight up authoritarianism. This is straight up fascism. Again, it really sucks to keep making the Nazi Germany comparisons. But this is exactly what the Nazis determined was okay to do to Jews, to gypsies, to queer people was to not give them any semblance of proving anything and just either deporting them to camps outside of Germany and then eventually camps inside Germany. The idea that you're going to sit here and say we can't do due process because it's just not practical, there's too many people, maybe that should be your first thought, that we shouldn't be trying to deport 8 million people in the first place. But instead of going there, of course the Fox News mind goes to so let's just get rid of due process. Let's just throw the Constitution in the garbage when we get through this. And I really do think we're going to get through this. I don't ever want to hear another word from, from conservatives about the Constitution. They have shown that they could not give a shit about the Constitution. And for all these decades of claiming to be constitutionalists, strict constitutionalists, originalists, whatever. No, they're not, they never were and they certainly aren't now. And then on top of that, you've got Tom Homan, Border Czar, when asked by John Carl on ABCs this Week, do they have any due process at all, he said, due process. What was Lake and Riley's due process?
- [56:25]
Danielle Moody
Oh, wow.
- [56:26]
Andy Levy
That's not the question. Lake and Riley was murdered. Basically you are admitting without admitting it that what you are doing is illegal. That in their minds because this woman was murdered, then 8 million people don't have constitutional rights. A, it's extremely silly, as ultimately all these people are, but B, unfortunately it's also incredibly dangerous as all of these people unfortunately are. And we are just seeing the absolute shredding of the Constitution. We are seeing the absolute shredding of all the good parts of America that are supposed to be left are just being burnt at the stake and fuck.
- [57:06]
Danielle Moody
All these people they are telling us what they are doing. Like, you're not going to need trials in this country in 10, 20, 30, 40 years. Whenever it is that this regime, you know, falls, because it will. I don't know what the timing is, but I can tell you that it's not going to be four years. Maybe I'm wrong, you know, and I hope, I hope that I am. But the reality is, is that they are telling you. So nobody should be surprised when they say that these people don't deserve due process because they don't see them as human. Because so long as you can continue to detach these people from their humanity and basically treat them like trash and say that what is the reason for that is because they are people of color, because they are not American born or whatever it is that they are saying is basically saying we can do whatever we want. And Donald Trump posted on social media and said, when the President does it right, essentially hearkening Napoleon, Nixon and the rest of them, it's not illegal. And because the Supreme Court back in July gave him complete and total immunity to do whatever the hell he wants, and he has the power of the pardon, everyone around him is encouraged to be their worst selves and to do whatever is necessary to get the job done. Whether or not that means not providing people with their constitutional rights, because you don't see them as people. So for that reason and so, so many other reasons, those guys.
- [58:33]
Andy Levy
Yeah. If you think that this stops with immigrants, you're a fool. Just think about that. So, Danielle, get us out of this. Who's your fuck that guy?
- [58:44]
Danielle Moody
Well, I actually believe that my fuck that guy is new to the fuck that guy hall of Evil. So we know that Greenland remains in the news and sadly, Greenland is beginning to ramp up their defense. Against who would you ask? Oh, the United States of America. Because Donald Trump continues to threaten an invasion of the country. And why? Oh, because he wants their minerals. Yes, I know it sounds like colonists, like, just like colonization throwback, but like measles. What is old is new again under this regime. So is manifest destiny. So Donald Trump and his race for AI domination pretty much depends on the ability to get the minerals and the resources that are needed in order to dominate this AI race. And so his tech bros, the broligarchy, have their eyes on Greenland. And Greenland, as we know, is a sovereign nation that believes wholeheartedly in what environmental conservation and does not support the extraction of their minerals and resources, particularly by foreign nationalists. Let's just say that that doesn't stop. However, Donald Trump and this regime from making unscheduled visits to this country without being invited. And so who is set to visit Greenland this week is none other then second lady Usha Vance. Now, I have my thoughts about Usha that at this moment I'm gonna keep to myself. But the reality is this woman used to be an attorney, used to be a, you know, I'm assuming a bright attorney. I'm assuming at one point she probably even had that crazy thing called morals and integrity. But then she met J.D. vance, and, you know, maybe I'm giving J.D. vance hands too much credit, but I don't know how you, as a woman of color, stand next to a white nationalist with your biracial children and think that everything that is happening at the hands of this regime is somehow a good thing. I digress. The fact is, is that apparently she is going to do a quote unquote cultural visit this week in Greenland where she is going to attend some celebrations of Green Landing culture and unity, according to a statement that was released. And she's bringing along her son. I love the way that the BBC actually frames this and not their son, but that's how J.D. vance talks about his own children as well, which are her kids. Very weird. Anyway, so this is all a push because on top of her going there in an unscheduled visit, because guess what? The outgoing prime minister has said that they think that this is absolutely showing disrespect to the people of Greenland because you have not been invited to come and your country is, oh, I don't know, escalating war and issues in the country. Not only that, but another advisor for Donald Trump is also set to visit the country as well, and that is Mike Waltz, who is on Trump's national security team. Folks, I don't know what they are saying seeking to do here other than bolster up their intimidation and their aggression. And the thing is, is that the United States has had a base on Greenland since World War II, when they were a part of the collective defense of said country. And now I'm like, if I'm Greenland, I'm saying maybe y' all should get the hell out because we don't trust you. This is me saying that not the people of Greenland, but these trips are scheduled to happen this week. I don't think anything good could possibly come of it. And I think that it's a terrible move. And I also believe that bringing your child to said political events is a prop, because if there are protests and there are insults, it's like, how dare you attack my child? No, we're attacking this regime that seems. Seems to have no problem using children as props. So for that reason, Usha Vance, welcome to that guy. Because you're showing the world who you are as well. So happy to have you. And I'm sure it won't be the last time.
- [63:20]
Andy Levy
Yeah, and we sort of all had a bit of a laugh over this Greenland thing when it was first raised. And as with everything with Trump, it turns out out it's not funny and that it wasn't just some weird thing he said that we were never going to hear about again. For some reason, this seems to be like one of his highest priorities and the whole thing is just absolutely bizarre. And everything he said about Ujevance is absolutely correct. It's almost unfathomable what she is doing. But I wouldn't be upset if Greenland had said, no, you're not welcome in our country. We are not letting you in. You could quibble whether she's officially a part of the administration, but I think they could very easily say you are part of a regime that is openly talking about taking us over and we do not welcome you here. I don't think Greenland will do that. I don't think Denmark, which controls Greenland, particularly when it comes to areas of foreign policy and defense stuff, I don't think they'll do it. But I do feel like it's we are going to reach that point at some time. Maybe not that far from now. Yeah, that guy. Gal. Whatever.
- [64:35]
Danielle Moody
Hope you enjoyed checking out this episode of the New Abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday and Sunday.
- [64:41]
Andy Levy
If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going. This podcast is a Daily Beast production with production by Jesse Katie Canon and Seamus Calder. Every day there's a new challenge to face. So meet Trimble, the technology company that connects your physical and digital worlds, allowing you to make decisions and take intelligent action to get the hard work done. And the best part? You can do it all faster than you've ever thought possible. Check them out@trimble.com you ready to turn data points into decision points? Or turn deadlines into finish lines? How about turning possibilities into profits? Then turn to Trimble.
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Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily beast podcast@thedailybeast.com podcast if you enjoyed this.
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Danielle Moody
Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast.com membership podcast and sign up today.