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- [00:00]
Michael Wolff
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- [00:40]
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- [00:48]
Michael Wolff
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- [01:07]
Michael Wolff
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- [01:36]
Michael Wolff
He understands that for some reason, the audience, for however much this is crazy stuff and looks crazy and is crazy, it nevertheless defaults to the strongman. The audience loves the strong guy. The audience. Any sign of weakness takes that away. He maintains that illusion of strength and it gets him through. Not necessarily by much. He kind of kind of squeaks through, but. But it is the thing that he learned. It is the thing that works. It is the thing that he continues to pursue.
- [02:17]
Joanna
Michael Joanna. It's a year on. It's a year on. So many truth social posts later, so many stories none of us can remember later. And now Greenland.
- [02:33]
Michael Wolff
How would we characterize this year? I mean, just in your own life, in our own lives. Other than a year of relentless podcasts, you're living dangerously.
- [02:47]
Joanna
I would characterize it by our design, actually. I don't know if everybody can see this, but I think this kind of. We're living in the fallout of the frenzy of Donald Trump's brain, which is getting more frenzied.
- [03:00]
Michael Wolff
We are, but what's the Result of that, where are we? So when people call you up and they call me up and they say, are we losing our democracy? What do you say?
- [03:13]
Joanna
Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like all conversations and you never want to be a podcast that devolves to, oh, I heard this at a dinner party, but I'm reading a book called, I think it's called Looking for Trouble by a foreign correspondent called Virginia Cowles, no relation to me because she's got a W in her name. But it's about the beginning of the Second World War and how everybody is sitting around and the only thing they can talk about is, is Hitler a madman and is he actually going to do this? And the world is div. Into two or London certainly is divided into two, because she's reporting from London and you've got the Chamberlain appeasers and then you've got the Churchillian. He is a terrible man. This is darkness over Europe. We have to stop it. And it's very hard not to see the similarities.
- [04:00]
Michael Wolff
And I myself was reading something, although of course I don't remember what or where, but it was making the argument that there were two existing realities in pre war Germany, and in one reality, the world was ending for many, many, many people transforming and seriously, truly ending. And in the other world, life went on as normal. So, and certainly that's what we are seeing at this moment, obviously in Minneapolis, obviously with immigrants across the country, obviously with anyone who has worked for the federal government, obviously anyone who is in the media and has been sued or in my case, is suing. But for the a large part of the rest of the country at this point in time, life goes on as always.
- [05:16]
Joanna
Well, life does go on as always. But the promises that Donald Trump made, certainly about bringing down the price of groceries hasn't come to pass. Groceries are more expensive. People feel the cost of living, health care premiums.
- [05:33]
Michael Wolff
But that's in a basic, basic political terms. And that could have occurred in any administration. So the thing, I'm just pushing back.
- [05:43]
Joanna
On your principle of the two things, that one side of one part of America isn't impacted by him and the other is because I think people are impacted by prices not feeling under control.
- [05:57]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I think that that misses the point, however, because that point, that could happen. Yes, prices, prices. Across many administrations, you go through economic, economic ups and downs. But in this administration, and it's the important thing to keep in mind, things are happening which have never happened before in any administration. It is a trans for many, many people of American life and what we assume to assume and the assumptions of American life and the promise of American life, that is all changing for many people, but not for others. So that's the, that's the, as we say, the split screen that we are, that we are living in. And that's the split screen that Donald Trump manages to exist in without, without the country rising up. And as I keep saying, 10 million people going to Washington, because for a good part of the country, if not most of the country, life goes on. And we can ignore the fact or at least turn away from the fact that in this other part of the country, life is being transformed. So I don't, you know, so after a year of this, you know, I think the problem is we know that something seminal has occurred, but we don't quite know what it is.
- [07:34]
Joanna
Well, Congress seems to have just given up the ghost, and we know that power seems to have been transferred to the presidency in a way that we haven't seen before. I just think there are more people impacted by it than you do. I don't think it's just brown people terrified that they're going to get rounded up on the streets by masked agents, which is certainly new in American life and a horrifying new detail of American life. I do think that people who've had their healthcare premiums doubled or trebled or are choosing not to. For the first time since Obamacare was created, there's been a drop off of people enrolling because they just can't afford it. And that, I think, has a huge impact on families.
- [08:24]
Michael Wolff
Obviously, I don't disagree. I think we're just disagreeing on what is a political problem and what is a transformational situation in democracy itself.
- [08:38]
Joanna
Well, what I think is transformational is the way that he and you have written about this and we've talked about it before. But it is transformational, which is its policy on the hoof by truth, social and. Well, what have you been hearing from people in the White House?
- [08:57]
Michael Wolff
I mean, I think this certainly goes right to the heart of who Donald Trump is and how he governs. And I use the word govern loosely. It is literally off the top of his head. I mean, I know people in the White House and I speak to people in the White House often. And I think this is very difficult to appreciate, probably impossible to appreciate that the people within the White House are often as surprised as we are by what happens. They literally open up, they go to bed at night and then they open up their phones in the morning and they look to see what he has posted and, and that becomes policy, that becomes reality. So my question, a friend of mine was, was saying the other day that, you know, we, we just wake up to see what he's posted and then we go into the office. So Susie Wiles is of course the, the, the Chief of staff, the person who is titularly in charge of, of taking Trump's of moving these policies through the executive branch to some kind of fruition or resolution. And she is as unaware of what is going to happen from day to day as, again as we are.
- [10:34]
Joanna
So she's basically sort of damage control. But can you just set the scene? Because I'm still struggling to understand his routine in terms of sleep. We know he's a bad sleeper, but he seems to want wake up at about three in the morning and just fire off whatever is on the top of his head. And we know he's sleeping alone, at least we assume he's sleeping alone. He's certainly not sleeping with the first lady. So he's trapped in his bedroom. Nobody likes being awake at three in the morning when the wife is asleep.
- [11:06]
Michael Wolff
He's sleeping with his hamburger.
- [11:09]
Joanna
All right, so he's, I mean he.
- [11:11]
Michael Wolff
Literally has, has the hamburger in bed.
- [11:15]
Joanna
All right, so he's got a half eaten, digested, half digested hamburger sort of chewed hopefully on a plate with a nice crest on it by the side of him. He's fallen asleep, I imagine, with all the televisions on. He wakes up in the middle of the night, the world is asleep, nobody's answering his calls. And so he just fires off crazy truth socials completely.
- [11:42]
Michael Wolff
I mean, so, I mean that is.
- [11:44]
Joanna
And think of that state of mind you're in at three in the morning when everybody else is asleep and you can't sleep and you're anxious and you're furious and you're impatient to get things done and flex your power.
- [11:56]
Michael Wolff
Exactly. So that's in, in one screen he's doing what, what anyone might do, the things going through anyone's, anyone's head. The difference is that A, he's posting this on, he's publicly posting this, and, and B, this then becomes policy. He's the President of the United States. So when he says this crazy stuff, I want to own Greenland, I mean, and I think that's an interesting baseline, the Greenland strategy, gambit, policy, whatever we want to call it, because who knows what to call it is off the top of his head. I mean, how it came into his head and for what reason and for what it means to him or what it symbolizes, no one quite knows. And also the usefulness. There is no, and I think almost everybody, everybody in the government, Republicans, Democrats alike, would agree that there is no advantage here. We do not get anything from all of this, all of this stuff about Greenland, as a matter of fact, we just increase the risk. No advantage, increase risks. So he makes this pronouncement and then it becomes real. Everybody. And that's the other interesting thing, is that no one knows how to react to this except in the way you would react if it were real. That is to say, the political estab, the White House staff itself, the political establishment in Washington and in Congress, world leaders, the media, every. Everybody has to take seriously what is fundamentally unserious. And then because everybody is taking it seriously, because what else can they do? Actually, he begins to take it seriously. We're in the mirrors here are. Well, it's a fun house of mirrors, right?
- [14:10]
Joanna
It's a house of mirrors. So he wakes up, he truth socialed something. The world wakes up, sees what he's truth socialed and because he is the President of the United States, they have to take it seriously. And what we find ourselves with is an astonishing point in European and American relations where Europe's biggest ally and protector has now transformed into its biggest potential enemy, both economically and militarily.
- [14:44]
Michael Wolff
So we understand there is no advantage here. The military point which Trump has initially made is not true because we already have a, have a, have a treaty in place which gives us the right to do almost anything militarily in Greenland. And we once did, we once had bases all over Greenland. And then after the end of the Cold War, we withdrew all that. Well, we could put them back there if we want. It would cost billions upon billions of dollars. But even if we own Greenland, that is what it's going to cost. And there was some talk about exploiting, exploiting the mineral resources in, in Greenland, but they would love us to do that. And again, owning it does not shift the cost burden there at all. So nothing changes on the ground in the least. And he's now invented this other weird rationale which I can't even unravel that because they didn't give him the Nobel Peace Prize then he has no reason to try to.
- [16:07]
Joanna
He's no longer a man of peace.
- [16:09]
Michael Wolff
In peace.
- [16:11]
Joanna
Right. This was his letter to.
- [16:13]
Michael Wolff
So he is looking, and in a more and more far flung way for a rationale to this, for something he doesn't, need, shouldn't do, will not gain anything by. At the same time, of course, he's undermining this NATO, one of history's really most successful treaties ever. I'm saying this off the top of my head, maybe, and there may have been more successful treaties, but it's been successful and a fulcrum of, I think, what we call the world order. So let's destabilize the world order. And here we are. This is what is happening today. And everybody is on their way to Davos, and this is the own, including Donald Trump. And this is the only thing that is going to be on their mind trying to unravel what is going on here. And they're not going to be able to unravel what's going on here, because there is fundamentally no logic whatsoever to what is going on here other than one man's grandiosity and, you know, madness.
- [17:35]
Joanna
Quite possibly one man's madness. And also, Davos itself has somewhat unraveled. I mean, Klaus Schwab, the guy who started it, has been shunted off to the side after some minor financial irregularities and accusations of bullying and all the things that Davos stood for and Davos man stood for about the rule of law and about climate change and about big ideas and the rolling forward of human rights.
- [18:03]
Michael Wolff
Well, again, a lot of people would say that's all bullshit, too, that what Davos stood for is the elites scratching each other's back.
- [18:13]
Joanna
Well, that's what I'm saying, that all that has come to an end because Donald Trump has just delivered an enormous turd to them in the shape of Greenland. And they are all aflutter. Every single world leaders.
- [18:26]
Michael Wolff
No, everybody. And again, the process of figuring out what this is about, of trying to reorganize, reorganize intellectually, reorganize politically in response to this, is almost impossible because it has fundamentally no logic. Does he really want Greenland, or does he want. Want the attention that he's going to get from demanding Greenland? And is he really going to go forward with this, or is he going to wait for the next distraction so he can slip out the back door on Greenland and everything remains the same?
- [19:11]
Joanna
Well, doesn't that seem the most likely outcome? I mean, we've pretty much forgotten Venezuela already after the Exxon guy, that wonderful meeting where he had with all the oil executives. And the Exxon guy says, well, it's highly unlikely we're going to invest in Venezuela because there's no rule of law, and we've been there twice before and twice before.
- [19:30]
Michael Wolff
Or the memorable words, Venezuela is uninvestable.
- [19:35]
Joanna
Venezuela is uninvestable. No one's talking about Venezuela anymore. He grabbed the peace prize, which is what he always wanted, even though it wasn't really his. I mean, that, that alone is such a pathetic indication of who Donald Trump really is that he steals someone else's Nobel Peace Prize. Though happily, she didn't give him the money. I'm surprised he hasn't asked for it. He'll move on from Greenland, don't you think? And then there was a good piece in the Atlantic this morning by Elliot Cohen saying why don't the Europeans just put 5,000 troops in Greenland, arm themselves with some anti aircraft missiles and some missiles to go after the ships. Donald Trump does not want body bags of American soldiers coming back from Greenland because America doesn't care about Greenland. This is not our fights, not what.
- [20:22]
Michael Wolff
You can do first. Yes, I can answer that. Because what this means, and this is what Donald Trump is obviously counting on, is that Europe still needs the US not least of all at this moment in time in Ukraine. So, and he will remember, Donald Trump doesn't back down. I mean, you know, we've just, you know, and again, this, this happened as a tweet in the middle of the night. He's going to now levy, levy new, new tariffs on the European countries that are mostly right. So we're gonna vociferously oppose, oppose this again. The White House, he posted that in the middle of the night. The white, the White House got in. Susie Wiles is there and everybody goes, oh, my God.
- [21:17]
Joanna
Well, and tariffs, otherwise known as import taxes. So American people will have to pay tariffs, import taxes on things from Europe because Donald Trump wants Greenland. This makes no sense. Why aren't Democrats using this?
- [21:33]
Michael Wolff
And here's another level, another level of senselessness here of Donald Trump shooting himself in the foot. The Supreme Court is now on the verge of deciding the Constitution institutionality of his ability to impose these tariffs. This is a decision that could come today, tomorrow, anytime.
- [21:56]
Joanna
I think they give their deliberations on Wednesdays. Right. So it could come tomorrow.
- [22:02]
Michael Wolff
And if they decide the way that it looks like they might decide, which is to declare to throw this out, his ability to do this, then even Trump has said, well, the whole economy goes down the drain. The whole world ends. I don't know. But so this is, you know, it's very meaningful for him to have the court decide in his favor. So what he is instead doing is demonstrating the capriciousness of these tariffs, which is, would be one of the primary reasons for the court to restrain this power, if not just Completely throw it out. But nevertheless, Donald, he can't seem to think that cause and effect doesn't occur to Donald Trump in the most basic political consideration.
- [22:57]
Joanna
Well, do you remember initially when he came in and people were like, oh, the thing about Donald Trump is he plays four dimensional chess. And you're like, this is a man who's not even playing checkers. Right. He can't even put one counter in front of the other. He can't see round the corner. I mean, what's happened to Ukraine and Russia? The deal that a year ago he said he would solve on the first day of his presidency.
- [23:20]
Michael Wolff
Yes. Well, I'll give you an example of a 3D chess playing. I'm not sure I would call it a 3D. I'm not sure what I would call it. But there is always the consideration with Donald Trump that what wins at the end of the day, what supports him is the illusion or the Persona of dominance. That's his baseline consideration. I can never show weakness. I can never apologize. You know, Renee Goode in Minneapolis, case of double down, double down. I always has to double, I always will double down. I will never retreat. Because the most important thing that I have to my credit is, is the look of dominance. And for some reason, and he understands that for some reason, the audience, let's think of that as the. Rather than voters, the audience, for however much this is crazy stuff and looks crazy and is crazy, it nevertheless defaults to the strong man. Now, that's something he would have learned, I think, throughout his life, but even most explicitly as the star of a top rated reality television show for 14 years, the audience loves the strong guy. The audience, any sign of weakness takes that away. He maintains that illusion of strength and it gets him through. Not necessarily by much. He kind of kind of squeaks through. But it is the thing that he learned. It is the thing that works. It is the thing that he continues to pursue.
- [25:12]
Joanna
But he has an Achilles heel, I think, in ice now. I mean, all the polling coming out now says that people feel very uncomfortable about masked men in the streets rounding people up and throwing them in the back of cars. No, I mean, also another Achilles heel. Minneapolis.
- [25:31]
Michael Wolff
Minneapolis is an Achilles heel. First thing, the largest Achilles heel is the economy. Then there's Minneapolis, then there's, then there's Greenland, which is at this point probably an effort to distract from Minneapolis, which was itself an effort to distract from Epstein.
- [25:49]
Joanna
Right.
- [25:50]
Michael Wolff
Gosh, it's complicated.
- [25:51]
Joanna
It's layer upon layer.
- [25:53]
Michael Wolff
And I totally, totally. I mean, the logic of this is Obvious, he's a fool and he may be a madman, and everything that he does is in some profound way counterproductive. And yet I just want to warn here and just hold up because all logic would say he is crumbling except for the fact that this strong man Persona pulls him through.
- [26:26]
Joanna
So another thing which has really defined the year and made this an exceptional presidency is just the sheer audacity and the level and the scale of the grift.
- [26:43]
Michael Wolff
And you would normally say in a normal presidency, in a normal time, how does he get away with this?
- [26:52]
Joanna
Right, right.
- [26:54]
Michael Wolff
I mean, this is extraordinary. We have seen this is not just millions, this is billions. This is his family, his friends, his circle profiting off of his presidency to a degree we have never seen in the history of the United States. I think that's incontrovertible. And it goes on. And it may be that almost everything that he does is designed for this purpose. We may be missing, speaking of three dimensional chess, the dimension, the Greenland dimension in which he profits, we are now seeing in Ukraine and Gaza and Venezuela plans which would probably create yet again enormous profit for him and members of his family. So how does he get away with this? Again, I think I might default to this dominance issue that there is, that he has in his audience, in so many American voters, created this mythology of the man who gets away with everything. So why challenge him on this? Because we know he's going to get away with it.
- [28:24]
Joanna
So at Davos this year, apparently there's been a lot of squabbling about who is going to introduce Donald Trump. It looks like as we're recording this on Tuesday morning, it looks like it's going to be Larry Fink, who runs BlackRock, the massive private equity company who gave 2.5 million to the ballroom and who is a sort of co leader of Davos this year. And interestingly, there was a piece in the times about BlackRock trying to raise money for the rehabilitation of Ukraine, the rebuilding of Ukraine, the refurbishment of Ukraine, which they tried to do for the last couple of years and hadn't got very far because European countries who'd largely be investing, felt that this was all going to go to the benefit of American companies. Companies.
- [29:16]
Michael Wolff
But yet they continue on. And this has been revived recent, recently by Trump and, and his golfing buddy turned international gadfly, turned the deal guy, the deal mediator. I, I don't know of, of to put blackrock back in this. In this. You mean Steve Wicked, Steve Whitcoff, as essentially, as essentially the financial funnel of all Things that will then of the enormous amount of money that the world will have to bring into Ukraine to put it back together again, and of which we can. I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that there will be skimming.
- [30:06]
Joanna
Off the top and skimming up the top of a lot. I mean, this is almost a trillion dollars that they're saying they're going to need to rebuild Ukraine. $800 billion.
- [30:19]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. No, this would be. This may become one of the biggest deals in the history of the world, actually.
- [30:26]
Joanna
Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner basically turn up in the rubble of any war zone and it's like they present their Grifter Marshall Plan. This is how we get out of it. They're building condos, they're building casinos. They're going to turn.
- [30:43]
Michael Wolff
And remember, they're in Gaza, too. So it's Ukraine, Gaza, there's Albania.
- [30:48]
Joanna
They've turned up in. They're trying to build a hotel in the center of Albania, which I think has been pushed back. Now Albania wants a potential Gold coast. I remember 40 years ago in London, people were all saying, oh, we're going to buy a house in Albania. Albania is the new Riviera. The new Riviera. But maybe, maybe Gaza will be the new Riviera from the Grifter Marshall Plan and just the rebuilding of everything.
- [31:14]
Michael Wolff
And now we have this other, other peace. What is this called? The peace.
- [31:18]
Joanna
Oh, the Peace Board. I can't believe it's taken us half an hour to get to the peace board, Donald Trump's peace board, which has already signed up, I think, Hungary and a couple of Middle Eastern states, which Israel is very upset about. And the only price of entry is a check for $1 billion to Donald Trump, who will administer the Peace Board and be in charge of the Peace Board.
- [31:45]
Michael Wolff
So they love this one billion. That's what. You know, Melania was suing me for 1 billion.
- [31:51]
Joanna
Well, it's a round number. It's easy to understand.
- [31:54]
Michael Wolff
That's their go to number. We've just jumped over hundreds of millions and now we're just settled at. At a billion. Yeah. So this Peace board is. I can't unravel that. What is it supposed to do? What is it supposed to signify? Well, it's supposed to nothing.
- [32:14]
Joanna
Don't you think it's signifying the end of Davos? It's probably signifying the end of the un, Another very successful organization, though God knows it's had its flaws.
- [32:23]
Michael Wolff
Well, let me offer that it signifies nothing, which is the real meaning of this. We're just gonna do this. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't solve any problems. It just is another avenue of grift, quite possibly, and another avenue of illusory dominance.
- [32:45]
Joanna
Illusory dominance, yeah, that's a very good line for it all. And of course people are going to be coerced into signing up and that's the whole of Europe talks to each other dominantly.
- [32:57]
Michael Wolff
You have to do this. It has no meaning. It will do nothing. It won't even meet. But you have to sign up and give me a billion dollars. And I think it's time for a word from our sponsors.
- [33:12]
Joanna
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Michael Wolff
Do they ever actually clean the ball pit at these kids play gyms? Or is my kid just swimming in a vat of bacteria catching whatever cootie.
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- [34:58]
Michael Wolff
A cootie that'll probably take down our whole family.
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- [35:17]
Michael Wolff
Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?
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- [35:47]
Joanna
And Michael Wolf and I are back inside. Where else Trump's head? What's interesting is that the only people that he seems to think highly of are Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin. Everybody else is treated as if they absolutely don't matter. I mean the way that and those.
- [36:09]
Michael Wolff
Those are the strong man, the dominant guys. Since we're all interested in lawsuits on the part of the, on the part of the White House and lawsuits in my case, suing the White House or principal players in it. You've had a good week. The Daily Beast has been in a tangle with Chris La Civita, one of the campaign, one of Trump's lieutenants and campaign managers. I never understood what he was suing you about and perhaps he didn't either because he dropped his suit this week. So you are, you won a complete victory over these bullies. So congratulations. And what's the behind the scenes?
- [37:05]
Joanna
Well, thank you. Well, quietly, we've been fighting this suit over a piece that we ran saying that Chris La Civita and his company Advancing Strategies had taken in $19.2 million for the buying of media in the run up to the Trump campaign. Campaign which he objected to. And of course, you know, I understand that the story ruffles some feathers within the White House because as we know, Donald Trump doesn't like anybody to make money off working for Donald Trump. Only he is allowed to do that and members of his family.
- [37:39]
Michael Wolff
And just let me put a make a behind the scenes point that Chris La Civita, who was the co manager of his campaign with Susie Wiles, did not get a White House job.
- [37:53]
Joanna
He did not get a White House job. Did, however, get the opportunity to make Albania great again because the opposition leader there hired him, I think for 1.5 million to help them.
- [38:08]
Michael Wolff
Sadly, it was costive on LA's part. As money hungry as anybody in the Trump world. I mean, a number of people, higher ups in the, in the Trump circle, made the calculated decision not to go into the White House because they could make so much money outside of the White House.
- [38:31]
Joanna
Oh, interesting. Well, there was a piece in the Atlantic which described Trump shouting at La Civita and telling him he needed to sue the Beast.
- [38:39]
Michael Wolff
By the way, that's a setup that could work for almost anybody in the Trump circle. Trump yelling at the, screaming at them and saying that they had to sue somebody or other.
- [38:51]
Joanna
Well, interestingly, Chris LaCivita and the RNC who was paying for his defense hired the LA celebrity lawyer, Mark Geragos, who's better known as the wife murderer, Scott Peterson's lawyer, the Menendez parents killer lawyer.
- [39:15]
Michael Wolff
We get the right.
- [39:16]
Joanna
Hunter Biden's lawyer also. And interestingly, Colin Kaepernick lawyers. So he's had an interesting collection of clients and he can now add Chris La Civita to it.
- [39:26]
Michael Wolff
Anyway, do we know how much La Civita paid?
- [39:30]
Joanna
Well, it looks like he got paid $650,000 from the RNC. They were footing the bill for this. So that's what we've seen to date. And we just very methodically went through.
- [39:50]
Michael Wolff
And they got nothing out of the settle with them. You didn't.
- [39:53]
Joanna
I mean, he quietly walks away.
- [39:56]
Michael Wolff
But seeing reference to this as a settlement, but it wasn't really a settlement. No retraction, complete capitulation. And, and he just, he just.
- [40:07]
Joanna
Yeah, there's no money, no apology, no retraction. If you want to read the piece, it's available on the Daily Beast website.
- [40:15]
Michael Wolff
You know, I mean, I saw the Times piece too, which, I mean, I knew a little of the background here. So I was thinking, when I saw the Times piece, I thought, what? Because it actually suggests there's some ambiguity here and it gives the impression, it certainly gives the La Civita side the last word on this, saying that they won this lawsuit, which is obviously preposterous in any way.
- [40:46]
Joanna
Very surprised that they did that. I, I don't understand why Katie Roberson, who wrote the piece, actually included Garagos's quote at the end of it. Because it was nonsensical. It was like black is white.
- [40:57]
Michael Wolff
Well, she's one of their media reporters. She's one of their media reporters who I know, and she's a kind of, you know, a, you know, a B minus reporter, certainly. But the other, the other aspect of, of this, which I can personally attest to, it's lustre.
- [41:14]
Joanna
Can I just say how withering to be described as a B minus reporter. Katie was one of the four sitting around Trump and she did ask the question Is there anything that will stop you? And he said, only my own morality. But please continue because this was not my favorite piece by Katie, and I don't understand why she ran that quote when it was clearly untrue. Unless, of course.
- [41:36]
Michael Wolff
Well, I can give you something that La Civita is a. Well, let's use our language here so we don't get further sued by these people. He has good relationships with the press.
- [41:55]
Joanna
So, you know, from time to time he would tweet at us F A F O as if we were somehow supposed to be sort of cowed by that.
- [42:04]
Michael Wolff
And no, you know, during the campaign and on the campaign trail, you know, every night he was out with late. With reporters. So this idea that the Trump people had somehow, you know, were at odds with the mainstream press was totally not true.
- [42:23]
Joanna
Beyond intriguing. And we never give a shout out to our lawyer, Neil Rosenhaus, at the end of the podcast. We only ever give a shout out to the production team. But, but Neil always is a. Neil is a terrific lawyer. And his co pilot on this, Kate, Kate Bolger at Davis Wright Tremain. I want to give a shout out to. Because she did sterling work and we would have occasional check ins and she was steadfast and nobody was planning to back down. And in fact, I encourage everybody to go and look at the FEC filings where you can see in public quite how much Chris La Civita took into his llc, of which he is the only apparent member.
- [43:07]
Michael Wolff
No, and I know that other people in the White House, when he filed this suit, they were like, oh, man, you know, this is.
- [43:16]
Joanna
Well, he.
- [43:17]
Michael Wolff
Why is he doing this? And this is going to get everybody in trouble.
- [43:20]
Joanna
Well, and of course, the minute discovery looked like it was going to happen and we had a list of 50 subpoenas.
- [43:29]
Michael Wolff
He.
- [43:30]
Joanna
He walked away. He walked away. And you know, this is the man who's famous for, for being tougher than tough. He was the one that orchestrated the Swift Boat disaster. This was a bit of his own Swift Boat disaster.
- [43:44]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. So boom hoist by his New York Times. The New York Times is really, is really. That was, that was surprising. And. How would we characterize when the New York Times reports something that's actually completely wrong?
- [44:07]
Joanna
Well, you would think they would have been more robust about it as they also faced it.
- [44:11]
Michael Wolff
And it's not a matter of robust. They clearly, in every respect, gave the wrong impression. Consciously gave the wrong impression.
- [44:21]
Joanna
Well, as I say, no apology, no money, no retraction. If you want to read the piece on the Daily Beast, Website you can. All right, Michael, give us an update with where you are on suing the first lady 10 days before her movie opens.
- [44:37]
Michael Wolff
Well, let's go. I mean, we are. No, we're just grinding along in this lawsuit. I mean, she's moved this to federal court. We're asked to move it back. And we're now waiting for the procedural decision on that, which should come relatively soon. But meanwhile, there is a premiere of Melania, the movie that is scheduled for the 29th of January, and this is.
- [45:14]
Joanna
Being held where is this an Amazon premiere?
- [45:16]
Michael Wolff
In Washington. In Washington. And I'm told it's a mandatory appearance from all of the people of the Trump White House and any other Trumper and the most loyal Trumpers in Washington. As a matter of fact, I think if you want to show your loyalty, it's kind of a requirement to, to be there.
- [45:46]
Joanna
And I guess my question is, do you know if Jeff Bezos is going to be there? Because of course, his Amazon commissioned this for $40 million with Brett Ratner, a director who had hitherto $40 million.
- [46:00]
Michael Wolff
$40 million. And she gets 70% of the back end and she gets 100% of the corporate sponsorships she is selling at $10 million. Apostles. The grift goes on.
- [46:13]
Joanna
The grift continues. But will Jeff Bezos be there one year on from when he and his then fiance, Lauren Sanchez, in her bustier, which caused Mark Zuckerberg a flurry of excitement? I think we all remember when he was caught looking down her substantial embonpoint. But will Jeff Bezos be there for.
- [46:35]
Michael Wolff
Well, I don't. I don't. Because his Washington Post is causing a bit of might be there, which will then, then cause some conflicts with the Washington Post, of course. So.
- [46:46]
Joanna
Right. Whose reporter.
- [46:48]
Michael Wolff
That will be nice to look forward.
- [46:49]
Joanna
To and whose reporter was last week raided by this government and had her computers and her phones taken because she's become the federal government whisperer and reports endless stories of government employees being fired, then rehired and the chaos that's going on in the federal government development.
- [47:12]
Michael Wolff
But let's talk about Brett Ratner because I think this is totally fascinating. So Brett Ratner, a very significant Hollywood director, producer powerhouse who was me too'd out of his career several years ago and is now being. Because he is now the director of this, of Melania the movie, which can.
- [47:40]
Joanna
I just say from the trailer, looks like just one long Instagram post, which is what documentaries are a bit these days.
- [47:48]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. Somebody I know who saw the movie and I said well, what is it like? And there was a pause, and he said, stylish.
- [47:57]
Joanna
Stylish. Okay.
- [47:58]
Michael Wolff
I think in this question, it certainly meant superficial. I mean, it looks. I'm sure Brett Ratner is a very good director. I mean, he's a moron, but from a visual standpoint, that's his gift, and I'm sure it is a visual kind of.
- [48:20]
Joanna
Yeah. I mean, the trailer literally looked like an Instagram, a really good Instagram.
- [48:26]
Michael Wolff
So, you know, I. And. But it's the interesting thing that this has completely restored him again to. Restored his career, restored him to Hollywood prominence. His fourth. What's the name of his franchise?
- [48:44]
Joanna
Is it the Rush Hour?
- [48:45]
Michael Wolff
Rush Hour, yes. So Rush Hour 4, which he could not get picked up or financed or distributed, is now being picked up, financed and distributed by Paramount. And Paramount is doing this basically at the request of Donald Trump. Brett Ratner is becoming Donald Trump's director. And Paramount, which is run by the Ellison family. Larry Ellison, the second richest man in the world and a Trump supporter who is now trying to buy Warner Brothers Discovery. That's a deal that will. That can only happen with Donald Trump's approval. So we see the grift here. Everybody's a beneficiary. If you're in the Donald Trump circle, you're a beneficiary of it, which Brett Ratner has clearly joined.
- [49:43]
Joanna
Well, just imagine if they'd got the TikTok deal already sorted out by now, because Larry Ellison is supposed to have a big chunk of that, and then they could promote the Melania movie on TikTok.
- [49:55]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. And the other thing I heard about is that. Is that. How was this put? Well, you know, this has a worldwide theatrical openness. Now, let's remember, this is a documentary film. Documentary films which usually have, you know, are made for a couple of million dollars. They don't have worldwide theatrical openings. This is now $40 million and a worldwide theatrical opening. And what was described to me is that tickets. Advanced. Ticket sales are soft.
- [50:32]
Joanna
Well, I.
- [50:32]
Michael Wolff
But they said. But there's a. There's an enormous appetite for people to screen this. They said, well, we'll see. What kind of appetite.
- [50:40]
Joanna
How would they know that there was an enormous appetite?
- [50:43]
Michael Wolff
I don't know. I don't know.
- [50:45]
Joanna
I'm going to be chronicling it. We're going to. I think we should. A, we should watch it, and B, we should check it against the Beckham documentary, the David.
- [50:57]
Michael Wolff
But we have not been invited to the January 29th premium.
- [51:02]
Joanna
We could try and crash it. We could try and crash it. I wonder if protesters will manage to smuggle themselves into the theater. I would imagine the security is going to be very tight because that would be such a thing to protest.
- [51:19]
Michael Wolff
I would imagine. And I don't know where this is. Geez. I wonder if it's at the Trump Kennedy Center.
- [51:25]
Joanna
Do you think Melania will go? Will she be in Trump Tower? No, I'm going to.
- [51:34]
Michael Wolff
No question. As a matter of fact, someone I know who was invited to this was invited with the promise of personal time with the President and the First Lady.
- [51:50]
Joanna
I will be doing personal time for my movie. I hope she's talking about Epstein. We've got some questions for you.
- [51:57]
Michael Wolff
He is not going to be there.
- [51:59]
Joanna
He's going to be there in spirit, Michael. He's going to hang over the thing like a spectre. Everybody's going to be waiting to see if he is alluded to or not.
- [52:10]
Michael Wolff
I think we can safely answer that he will not be alluded to.
- [52:14]
Joanna
To. He will not be alluded to.
- [52:18]
Michael Wolff
And let's take a break for a commercial message.
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- [54:30]
Joanna
And I'm back with Michael Wolff and we are inside Trump's head. All right, Michael, I've got a couple of questions for you here.
- [54:44]
Michael Wolff
Ask Melania.
- [54:45]
Joanna
Yes, I've got a couple of you.
- [54:46]
Michael Wolff
Know what then for me, but questions for Melania.
- [54:50]
Joanna
Okay.
- [54:52]
Michael Wolff
Although feel free to ask questions of me also.
- [54:54]
Joanna
Yeah, a question for Melania. Did Donald pay her to threaten Michael legally?
- [55:05]
Michael Wolff
Well, that's an interesting. That's interesting. Or maybe it's better. How much of the 1 billion that she is suing, that she proposes to sue me for? She is not suing me. I'm suing her. But she threatened first. Does she get to pocket herself?
- [55:25]
Joanna
That's a very good question. Then this is from. That question was from Lilia. This is from Ken Patchy. Stephanie Winston Wolkoff wrote the book Melania in me in 2020. They were friends for about 15 years, I think they were friends as school moms, actually. And Stephanie is certainly one of the people who knows the mysterious Melania. Could Stephanie Winston Wolkoff, Melania Trump's ex friend, be one of your guests?
- [55:57]
Michael Wolff
Well, we haven't ever had a guest because we're so wrapped up in each other.
- [56:01]
Joanna
I wonder if she will be watching the movie.
- [56:04]
Michael Wolff
But the book is. Her book is actually great. I mean, incredibly insightful, kind of eye opening, like flabbergasting. Yes.
- [56:14]
Joanna
So we'll be recommending Stephanie Winston Wolkoff's book. I wonder why nobody's made that into a documentary. And then this is from Better Ways, Better Days. What is to stop Melania from promising not to sue anyone else and then doing it anyway. Will there be any consequences if she does that? How will you put teeth in the agreement if you win?
- [56:38]
Michael Wolff
I don't know the answer to that. I mean, that assumes that she would actually agree, that there would be. No. And actually, I want a broader agreement. I mean, there's no reason for us to stop this lawsuit. We have been. People all over the country, all over the world, have been incredibly generous. We've raised a lot of money on our GoFundMe page. So we intend to push this absolutely to the end. But were they, the White House, to look for ways to stop this, which they might very well have to, because they, as we've observed often, they really can't afford to sit for depositions and to be asked under oath questions about their relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. So I don't maybe at some moment it comes to this that they have to like Chris lacivita and, and the Daily Beast, that they have to capitulate here. And I think the only terms I would accept are an agreement on the part of the White House not to sue anybody in the media business, which.
- [58:02]
Joanna
Would be an amazing result.
- [58:04]
Michael Wolff
And let me just say that this seems like, whoa, whoa, that would be amazing. But no other White House has sued media organizations. So this would just be sort of returning to the Democratic baseline, the First.
- [58:25]
Joanna
Amendment baseline, the Democratic baseline. All right. So we've had a ton of limericks sent in, and I don't, annoyingly, I was going to read some of them. And Garfried has identified himself. Garfried, who is our regular limerick writer, has inspired a ton of other limerick writers. I've got one poem here because we've now got haikus. We've got poems coming in. I can't quite keep on top of them. I promised I would read some out, and of course, I haven't got them in front of me, except I've got one which is from Regina Ashby, and it is the quality of mercy is not strained, except in all the world so ruled by Trump that power reigns and blinds the hearts of men and women, so no breath of life remains. So keep sending them in. I promise you I will read more out. But we've got a whole poet thing going on on our comments section, which is very exciting.
- [59:26]
Michael Wolff
Fantastic.
- [59:27]
Joanna
It's very exciting. And actually what's really fun is when the podcast drops, the live conversation that goes on between people, there are friendships being made. It's very exciting. I try and drop in when I can, and it's really enjoyable. So if you have been, thank you for joining us. Thank you for your comments. We love them.
- [59:47]
Michael Wolff
But speaking of friendships and commenters and everybody who has any interest in what we're doing here, Joanna, we are live tomorrow night at the 92nd Street Y in New York City at 92nd street and Lexington Avenue. And there may not be tickets left. But there certainly are virtual tickets left and there may be a few tickets left. Seems to me there's always a few tickets left. So. So if you're in the neighborhood, please, we'd love to see 92nd Street y w w w92ndny.org Joanna hi. I have to tell you about something that we're obsessed with. I'm Kevin Fallon. And I'm Matt Wilstein and we are hosting Obsessed, the podcast about all the TV shows, movies and entertainment newsmakers that we're all obsessed with. So make sure you subscribe to us on YouTube at the YouTube channel. Make sure you follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for Obsessed the podcast and we will see you there. Yvette Johnson, Methinks Betsy o' Farrell Mills and Lynns Chelby Max Cubitt David Shari, Thomas Moore, Maria Voltain D. Kujer Watts Sien Lund. Sien Lund. Okay. John H. Overrocker Deb K. Ostrander Sandra Clark Travels With Carl Andrew Beaver Capinator Harry Clark, Dawn McCarthy, Daniel dog lover M. Griner, D. Stone Fulvia Orlando Herbie, Andrew Mellor, Tattnall, Val Love, Francesco, Will Hutchinson, Andrea Hodel, Bocock D.C. sharon Shipley, Connie Rutherford, Karen White and Heidi Riley. Thank you all our incredible team. Devin, Heather, Ryan, Rachel and Neil.
- [62:16]
Joanna
Neil who? And Neil who legally reads these podcasts. And Neil, we're going to need you tomorrow live.
- [62:26]
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Michael Wolff
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