Joanna Coles (3:33)

Lena Wen.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (3:34)

Yeah, you never do that, she wrote. And then a cardiologist who was the physician apparently for Vice President Cheney, said that's never the thing to take. Well, the 2021American Heart association guidelines for people who've had a stroke to prevent another stroke, call it level one evidence that you take 325 milligrams of aspirin a day. And that's based on an excellent study that was published. God, it's old. Fifteen years ago that showed people who did that and took another pill, clopidogrel, for the first 30 months had only a 12% recurrence at the end of the year going forward. And that's a very good result. So that's what got me started on this, that I read, he's taking a pill. And I said, only one thing you take that for, and that's a prior stroke.

Joanna Coles (4:40)

So just to have an understanding of this, you did basically medical detective work. This is a specific treatment for a specific condition. What does 325mg or mgs of aspirin look like? How many pills is that a day?

Dr. Bruce Davidson (4:58)

Just one typical aspirin pill. One stale.

Joanna Coles (5:02)

Okay. And if you don't have aspirations or if you have. If you don't have symptoms of a stroke or you haven't suffered a stroke, you don't need to take an aspirin every day.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (5:11)

Right. You don't take that. Some people take baby aspirin, 81 milligrams. And if you've had coronary disease, you take perhaps an aspirin plus one of these other drugs or one of these other drugs if you have a stent, but that dose is solely for that, and it's the right thing to take. And I was pleased to see, however he cloaked it, that he was taking the right drug for a condition.

Joanna Coles (5:43)

Okay. Now, can you tell from looking at the president that he might have had a stroke? And I appreciate you can't diagnose him directly. He's not your patient. But you've got years of experience of doing this. And I'm curious if there are symptoms you see physically that might indicate he's had a stroke.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (6:03)

Sure. Well, let me just take a moment to give you some background. So I was. I became a board American board certified internal medicine specialist in 1981, in pulmonary in 1983, and critical care for 30 years. And when we see patients in the hospital or in clinic, even if we're seeing them for lung problems, we look at their drugs, we look at their past history, we see many patients who've had previous strokes and we know what that looks like for President Trump. Earlier in the year, there was video of him shuffling and I thought that was weird. Then I saw him cradling his right hand in his left, which is a common involuntary thing that people with strokes have done when they have weakness on one side. He garbled words much more so a couple months ago than he's doing now. Everyone loves something at McDonald's. There's always something to have. I like the fish. I like it. That implicates Broca's speech area, which is in the frontal left portion of the brain. So left portion. And then recently there was video of him walking down the stairs from Air Force One holding the banister with his left hand. Yeti's right handed signs with his right hand. So that suggested to me. And his speech became much better. And that suggested to me, along with a 325 milligram of aspirin, for which you only take, for one thing, he's had prior stroke, he's recovered from the stroke. So I now, now I think again, based on what I'm observing, that he's suffering two kinds of complications from stroke.

Joanna Coles (8:21)

What, what are the complications? And can I ask you before we go on to the complications, it was also at nine photos of him with what looked like the right side of his mouth drooping. Would that also be symptomatic of a stroke?

Dr. Bruce Davidson (8:40)

It could be, but if I'm correct that he had a left sided brain infarction, it would be the left part of the face and the right part of the body.

Joanna Coles (8:51)

So, Dr. Bruce, what are the other two symptoms you were mentioning?

Dr. Bruce Davidson (8:56)

Yeah, well, it is common after strokes for people to have sleep disturbance and normal sleep is critically important for all of us, but particularly after you've had a stroke because the brain has what we call plasticity, that is, it can repair itself and does that primarily during sleep. So, so, but, but that requires good sleep. And so to have to have President Trump doing as he does, sending, I guess. I don't, I don't, I'm not on Truth Social, but I read that he has sent out tweets, you know, or whatever they're called.

Joanna Coles (9:45)

Yeah, he's frantically posting in the middle.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (9:47)

Of the night, in the middle of the night. And that tells me he's not Getting good sleep when his brain should be letting him sleep. And that is, that's an important symptom. And that contributes to ill health and blocks the brain fully improving. That's one thing. The second we saw with Pennsylvania Senator John Federer, who also had a strike.

Joanna Coles (10:16)

Right.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (10:16)

So the public saw Senator John Fetterman's complication. I think it was eight or nine months after his stroke and after he had had significant recovery, he had what he described as severe depression. And depression is quite common after stroke. There's quite early after the stroke, people are depressed because, oh my gosh, that happened to me, you know, but they often recover from that. But then months later, they can get significant depression. Now, depression is not always shriveled up, staying in a corner away from people. There is something called agitated depression.

Joanna Coles (11:02)

Agitated depression, I've never heard of that.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (11:04)

And people who have been leaders in charge for their whole life and finding themselves unable to do what they want to do and think of the words and express themselves will develop that sort of depression. And as I say, we saw with Senator Fetterman, we saw it afterwards, the press reported he was in a meeting with union member, teachers, union members and banging on the table and talking about, why do people, why are they all angry at me? And, and drove his car too fast a couple times. Now, where does that leave us with President Trump? Well, he's, he's up at night, which, which can worsen depression. It's common to get depression. And he's angry because he didn't get a Nobel Prize. I mean, here's a man who's been elected president twice and really he cares about a Nobel Prize. I mean, Bob Dylan got a Nobel Prize, you know, what's the big deal? And other things seem to get under his skin. And so it concerns me, and let me take a moment there to mention what a physician role is. A physician has three primary responsibilities. The first is relief of suffering. Second, prevent disability. And the third priority is postpone death. That's what we're supposed to do. So when I see the President appearing like a patient having trouble, I want his physicians to engage. And this illustrates, I regret, say, a terrible increasing weakness in American medical leadership.

Joanna Coles (13:10)

That we're suffering from the agitated depression. I've not heard of that before, but it makes total sense. Does some kind of incident like this impact the ability to make decisions?

Dr. Bruce Davidson (13:23)

You mean having a stroke?

Joanna Coles (13:25)

Yeah.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (13:29)

Well, in the short term, absolutely. Okay. And we've seen many presidents hide their short term infirmities. Right. And I don't think that's criminal in the long term. It depends how they recover and depends how severe the stroke was. And I think President Trump's stroke was not so severe. And by virtue of the fact that he. He hears questions, he responds to questions, he functions and doing other things, I think he, you know, he still has judgment. But depression impacts your judgment, lack of sleep impacts your judgment. And those are fixable things if there were someone leading the mission to fix them.

Joanna Coles (14:31)

I've got a couple more questions for you, just on the president's sort of symptoms. So he's got a disproportionate response to problems, A disproportionately angry response to problems. He's got sleep disorder. Is this why we would see him sleeping in the Oval Office? Which has now happened more than once, where he's literally gone to sleep in the middle of a Cabinet meeting? Oddly, often when Marco Rubio is talking. I don't know if that's related, but he's definitely falling asleep in meetings.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (15:05)

Yes. Excessive daytime sleepiness, or as we call it medically, hypersomnolence is common after strokes.

Joanna Coles (15:15)

Hypersomnolence?

Dr. Bruce Davidson (15:17)

Yeah, it just means excessive sleepiness, and it's due to poor sleep at night, which we. We already infer that he has. And again, it's something that in. In stroke survivors, you accept and you help them get better sleep and you don't bust their chops over it. But we've. But that's something I neglected to mention. I'm glad you brought it up. That reinforces the diagnosis of prior stroke and poor sleep.

Joanna Coles (15:53)

Okay. And the President talked about taking an aspirin when he mentioned that he'd had a marvelous result. He'd aced his MRI as well as some MOCA tests, and he said it was because he wanted thin blood pumping through his heart. Lovely thin blood, not thick blood. Is that accurate?

Dr. Bruce Davidson (16:16)

Well, it's a lay term, thinning the blood. Blood has two components, liquids and solids, cells and parts of cells. So generally in medicine, when we're explaining to patients thinning the blood, we're talking about interfering with the liquid part's ability to coagulate. The solid part has what are called platelets, fragments of cells. And when you cut yourself shaving, it's platelets that go there first to plug that and aspirin. The other drug, clopidogrel, drugs like that, another drug, psilostazole, are drugs that interfere with platelet function. And the goal, if you've had a stroke and you have blockage of a major vessel in the brain, is to stop platelets from sticking to the cholesterol in that occlusion. And so it's not so thinning is a lay term, but it's an aspirin, is an anti platelet drug. And at that high dose it was, it was 88% effective for people with, I think they had to have 70% or greater or blockage. So that's a terrific result.

Joanna Coles (17:41)

So, Dr. Bruce, we know that the president, by his own admission, doesn't really exercise. He has what for a lot of people would be a high stress life. It's not clear if he finds it stressful because he seems to enjoy it so much, which, you know, fair enough, a lot of people in power do. And he also doesn't have the sort of diet that a doctor would recommend. Even his own secretary or his cabinet secretary for health recoiled when he discovered the President's diet of Chicken McNuggets and, you know, fried fish sandwiches and McDonald's. What would you be advising the president if you were his doctor to be eating post stroke and would you be advising him to exercise post stroke?

Dr. Bruce Davidson (18:34)

Well, I, I want to come back to what should the doctor do? But let me answer your your question first. Public figures, and I've known several do and say certain things to maintain an image. All right, I don't need to exercise. I can eat McDonald's. I, you know, A, B and C, when in fact, in private they're taking care of themselves. And it is, it is not uncommon for people for whom part of their image is to be tough to hide illness. An example you1, you may go to lunch with someone or dinner with someone who you haven't seen in a, in a while. And whereas normally they would take a steak and put butter and slather it on top, they're eating a salad with chicken on top. And you say what's going on? And they're not going to tell you that they had a heart attack and angioplasty and a stent. They're going to say, well, I'm trying to control my weight a little bit and my kids are making me eat a little better. So I really don't put any stock in what the president says he's doing or others say about what he's doing. And I want every patient to recover after an illness. And if I'm correct and he had a stroke and he's I, I think based on what I've seen, he's made a pretty good recovery. And, and you get there according to the American Heart Association 2021 guidelines, which I've cited to you about the medicine. You control blood pressure, you do some exercise, you do control diet and cholesterol and so on. And for all I know, he's done those things and is doing those things.

Joanna Coles (20:38)

Dr. Bruce, let's just stop for some ads. And I'm back with Dr. Bruce Davidson, a pulmonologist and a board certified internist, discussing the President's health and whether or not, as Dr. Davidson thinks, he's had a stroke. This might be the most shocking revelation we've ever had on the podcast that Dr. That President Trump might be a secret salmon eater, that he might actually be eating salads. I've often wondered, actually, because Melania obviously looks after her figure and they have a White House chef, whether or not he was in secret eating salmon and salad in the evening. So at least you've raised the possibility. So, Dr. Bruce, what are those really unsightly bruises that he has on his hands that he uses makeup to cover? But I noticed when he was in Davos, even the makeup wasn't covering what looks like really black bruises on his hands at this point. What, what is that to do with.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (21:42)

Well, to be honest, I haven't seen seen more than black and blue. What we call black and blue marks, soft tissue. So first, the skin gets thinner as we get older. Second, if a patient is taking a steroid for any reason, prednisone, hydrocortisone, that thins the skin systemically so it's more prone to bruising. Third, 325 milligrams of aspirin every day interferes with your platelet function. So if you bang your hand around or shake hands a lot or use it, it's going to bruise. So you would expect that to occur on the left hand as well. But if he's not using his left hand for writing, for shaking hands and so on, it wouldn't happen there.

Joanna Coles (22:44)

Okay. We've been chronicling his bruising at the Daily Beast because obviously if the President has a serious health concern, we want to monitor it. And he's definitely had bruising on both hands. What about his swollen ankles, his cankles, as they've become known?

Dr. Bruce Davidson (23:04)

Well, again, I've just heard about those. I haven't seen them medically.

Joanna Coles (23:09)

I need to send you some photographs. We have photographs of his legs which, which don't appear to indent at the ankle. They just go straight up and down as if they were a tree trunk.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (23:20)

Okay, so. So what he has said, I think, or they've said is he has venous insufficiency. And that is certainly common as people get older. What's that about? Particularly in women who've had, who, who've had babies. Okay. The uterus presses on the left iliac vein and impedes flow. Now, how does blood get from your ankles up to your heart and then to your lungs? The muscles of the legs constrict and the veins themselves have muscles in the walls and they constrict and then you inhale and that suck helps suck the blood up. Well, as you get older, you're still inhaling, but the muscles on the veins of your legs become weaker. And an abdomen that's been big, if you've been overweight, obese, that presses on the veins. And just being on your feet a lot of your life will lead to swelling in the legs. And, and I can't tell you how so many patients have that. And, and elastic compression stockings are a good thing to wear. I've done a lot of work with blood clots in the legs and blood clots in the lungs, researched a lot of anticoagulants and this disease. And it's very common to have that after an episode of deep vein thrombosis you might have had when you were younger if you hurt your knee and it was wrapped up. So, so it can also be a sign of more severe disease, but you don't. And, and or of, of sleep apnea, for example, which is very common among older foes. But one doesn't need to invoke all of that. And again, chronic venous insufficiency of the legs. Again, if, if he were my patient, I would have him wear elastic compression knee high elastic compression stockings. Job Sigveris. 20 to 30 millimeters at the angles of pressure, and that would relieve that and would also protect his skin down there.

Joanna Coles (25:49)

Interesting. Well, I think he's tried wearing compression socks and rejected them on the grounds that he didn't like it. There will be a lot of people listening and watching this podcast, Dr. Bruce, who have familiarity with this. Either themselves they've had a stroke or they have a relative who's had a stroke. What is the prognosis? If the president is now entering his ninth decade, he'll be 80 this summer. If you're right and he has had a stroke, but he's taking 325mgs of aspirin. If you were his doctor, would you be giving him a sort of health span, a lifespan at this point?

Dr. Bruce Davidson (26:37)

No, because. Well, the evidence, as I think I mentioned. I think that study, which is a very good study, New England Journal of Medicine, I think, if I'm recalling, had 88% with no recurrent stroke at the end of a year. And if you've gotten over that scary period, you may go long term on the right medicine. As I mentioned, there's another medication, Psilostazole, that maybe he's taking, or maybe they've considered adding that the American Heart association also gives a qualified recommendation for the reason you don't give a, you know, I think you've got five more years, is because, as I mentioned, our job is to prevent disability and postpone death and not supposed to quit doing that unless it gets in the way of the highest priority, relief of suffer. And that's why when someone has a terminal cancer causing pain in their bones, we give them narcotic because we're trying to relieve suffering, but we know it will not. That's going to cause disability and it's going to hasten death, but it's a higher priority. And if I could, I'd like to address his physicians and that issue at this moment because.

Joanna Coles (28:09)

Yeah, absolutely, go ahead.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (28:11)

Because if you have a patient who is demonstrating, as you've described, daytime excessive sleepiness and doing all this writing at night, and you're the doctor, and then you see something that looks like it could be, or may is agitated depression, it's your job to. To take your patient and get that person, man or woman, to follow instructions. And if I could, there is a very famous, terrific physician, Dr. Franz Engelfinger, who is the editor in chief the New England Journal of Medicine, who was a gastroenterologist specialist in the GI tract, been a professor at Boston University, who himself developed terminal cancer of the esophagus of his own GI tract, the tube that carries food from the mouth to the stomach. And he wrote a. A magnificent, I think, article near the end of his life at which he indicated doctors had been sort of deferring to him because he's an expert in that field. And he said, that's not what I want. He said a doctor needs to be authoritarian, paternalistic and dictatorial, at least presenting that to the patient. The patient doesn't have to follow. But to put options in front, he said, it's like being a used car salesman. That's shirking your responsibility, not being a doctor. Now, what do we have? Well. Well, the White House physician is a Dr. Barb Barbabella, who's the emergency room doctor from the military. And that's not what you want when your patient is someone in their late 70s and has plenty of illnesses or, or a history of some or certain to get them. Because, I'm sorry, all of us deteriorate as we age. It's expected. You want a board certified internal medicine specialist, perhaps a geriatrician, who also has the stature and weight to talk to the President in that way. And instead we have an emergency medicine doctor whose in the military. So the president is his commander in chief. And you can't speak that way to your commander in chief. Your primary responsibility as physician is to the patient, of course, but you're also responsible to the country.

Joanna Coles (31:19)

Are you auditioning for the job?

Dr. Bruce Davidson (31:21)

No. Thank you. But thank you very little, as Chevy Chase used to say. But you see, there's potentially a backup, and that is the Surgeon General, the country, the nation's physician. And we have had strong surgeon generals in the past. We had Dr. Everett Koop, a pediatric surgeon, who apparently was a devout conservative Christian. But when it came time to Recommend Prevention for HIV, he, he fearlessly did. So we were, we had Dr. David Satcher, who was a who. I got to know a little bit because I was director of the Tuberculosis Control Program in Philadelphia and president of the National TB Controllers Association. I was at CDC. Dr. Satcher was the director of CDC and I was in meetings with him occasionally. And, and he was a listener. He asked penetrating questions and then he did decisive things that helped our country control our TB epidemic. HIV related. Even before we had drugs for hiv. So we've had surgeon generals like that and now we have no Surgeon General at all. So who is to be the backstop for Dr. Barbabella? We don't have one. Not an official one.

Joanna Coles (32:49)

And we're just taking a quick ad break and I'm back with Dr. Bruce Davidson discussing the President's health. Okay, so in my dreams, I would have the President treated by his cabinet Secretary for Health and Human Services, RFK Jr. I would lock them in a room together and I would ask RFK Jr to give us his diagnosis of the President. What do you think about that idea?

Dr. Bruce Davidson (33:22)

I think you need to be locked in a room and have some Edison medicine, you know.

Joanna Coles (33:28)

All right, so, so can I just.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (33:31)

Let me, let me answer. I can, I can address that. We have had non physician HHS secretaries in the past. We've had physicians, Dr. Louis Sullivan, who was terrific, I think he was, during the first Bush administration, but we had Joseph Califano who helped put together a lot of important things, you know, in the past. But But Robert Kennedy has said he can walk through an airport and see kids with dysfunctional mitochondria. I mean, this man is not only so medically ignorant, he is pompous beyond belief. He's, he's recommending fat in milk. And we see sycophantic publicity hungry physicians endorsing that saying, well, fatty milk is better than drinking sugary soda. Oh, really? I guess being assaulted is better than being murdered. So Robert F. Kennedy is clearly not the person to do this. You know, there are prestigious older physicians who could completely in private, this needs to happen. And the President is entitled to have it happen in private, but help guide him. For example, there's good treatment for sleep disturbance. Excellent treatment for it. We have excellent treatment, clinical trials specifically for post stroke depression. There's a drug, methylphenidate, Ritalin, legal speed, you've heard of it. It's for kids who are hyperactive and paradoxically, it calms them down. Well, that's been used specifically for post stroke depression and shown good results.

Joanna Coles (35:36)

And Dr. Bruce, do you think that President Trump is actually displaying agitated symptoms, symptoms of agitated depression? So that would be the sleep disorder. That would be the tweeting in the middle of the night. That would be the sensitive skin, both physically and emotionally.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (35:57)

Well, I think what I have seen things that appear consistent with it, and I mentioned one of those to getting bent out of shape about this Nobel Prize, that he would threaten Greenland and contact the head of Norway about the Nobel Prize committee. I mean, would you contact the President if the, if the Oscars weren't awarded to your favorite movie or country's movie? I mean, it's not fully rational. It seems like agitated depression to me. And there is now a new treatment that's going to sound weird, but it isn't. It's external magnetic stimulation.

Joanna Coles (36:51)

Oh, I think the President's going to like that. He loves magnets. He loves magnets. Maybe that's why he's fixated on them.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (36:59)

Well, this is FDA approved. The Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. Does it. I have a very good friend who's brilliant in, in my field in Europe who was suffering severe depression. It's all over Europe. He had it done. It's multiple treatments. The adverse effects are nil. It's not a pill. And there is long lasting benefit and perhaps these things have been tried, but I get the impression they're not.

Joanna Coles (37:34)

Do you think that John Fetterman helped people understand strokes and the aftermath of strokes more by talking about his depression? I mean, it's quite unusual for a public figure to do that, especially a politician.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (37:51)

I do, I admire it and I admire the fact that he's, I wouldn't expect otherwise from him because he's, his whole image is he's a tough guy, but I admire the fact that he's continuing to go to work and, and I think use a tablet to interpret words and, and show, show so many other people because we have something like 780,000, 800,000 strokes a year in this country. And many of those people don't die and they're discriminated against. They're written off in a variety of ways. And the more people we have who, who like Senator Fetterman have a, have a public podium who, you know, I don't necessarily agree, opinion wise with everything he does, but that's totally separate from this medical issue and I'm glad you've raised it. I admire that he's doing that and I think it's good for the country and we need a public health figure like a surgeon general to lead on those things. And regrettably, our last one, Dr. Vivek Murthy in 2024, I think said the nation's biggest problem was loneliness. So if John Fetterman's going to step in and help lead on stroke rehabilitation, I welcome it.

Joanna Coles (39:20)

I should point out we called the White House to ask whether or not President Trump had had a stroke. And he said, in fact, it was from Caroline Leavitt. She said these allegations are absolute bullshit and perhaps even slanderous. The individual making this false claim is a left wing nut job and Democrat activist. Are you a Democrat activist? Are you a, are you a nut job?

Dr. Bruce Davidson (39:47)

Well, it's good to be noticed. I, but I want to address your question. I'm, I vote for the person I have voted for. Republicans. I did not, you know, I'm a nut job now. People think I'm too conservative, you know, too traditional and so be it. But, but I do feel a duty. I went to public health school when, at a time when you spent 11 months in the classroom at Johns Hopkins and I ran a TB control program. I was president of the national group elected by my peers and I feel strongly about public health. There are a lot of things going wrong in medicine now, many. And I speak out about them. And does that make me a nut job? Nah.

Joanna Coles (40:54)

Well, I think we know where the nut jobs are in public health at the moment anyway. Dr. Bruce, thank you so much for joining us. We love to have you come back and talk about RFK Junior's first year. Thank you very much for joining us.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (41:07)

Well, thank you for the opportunity to talk to the public about health.

Joanna Coles (41:12)

Yeah, it's very interesting. And your perspective about the different characters that fulfill the role of Surgeon general is really interesting. It's not a discussion that really people seem to have.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (41:22)

Thank you again.

Joanna Coles (41:22)

Thank you. I found that a fascinating discussion. I've never heard of agitated depression before, but of course now I think about relatives who've had strokes and I now understand that perhaps some of their behavior and their recuperation falls under that term. And certainly it does seem that the president is becoming more and more agitated, that his reactions to things are out of all proportion to the thing itself. And it must be very difficult being around him and trying to contain that. And I also thought Dr. Bruce's observation that people who you would assume get the best medical care in the world perhaps don't, and the difficulties of keeping all this private, which of course they're entitled to do. But as voters, we're also entitled to know what's really going on here. What's really going on here. And if we've learned anything from the experience with the previous president, President Biden, we need more insight and more clarity into the state of the President of the United States. Health. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to leave your comments. Have you noticed anything that's different about the president's behavior, his attitude, his speech patterns? I thought it was very interesting. He's right handed, but he's using his left hand to come down those treacherous steps from Air Force One. Anyway, leave us your comment on YouTube. Don't forget to sign up for the Daily Bees podcast, podcast and the Daily Beast itself. We are independent media. We appreciate your support and we love our Beast tier of members. So feel free to join and sign up. Big thanks to our special bebeast tier of members. Here they are, Yvette Johnson, Me Thinks Batsy o' Farrell Mills and Lynns Shelby, Max Cubitt, David Sherry, Thomas Moore, Maria Voltaine, D. Hujer Watts, Signia Lund, John H. Overocker, Deb K. Ostrander, Sandra Clark, Travels With Carl, Andrew Beaver, Capinator Harry Clark, Dawn McCarthy, Daniel Dog Lover M. Griner, Di Stone, Fulvia Orlando Herbie, Andrew Mellor, Tattnall, Val Love, Francisco, Will Hutchison, Andrea Hodel, Bocock D.C. sharon Shipley, Connie Rutherford, Karen White and last but never least, Heidi Reilly. And thank you to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Ryan Murray, Rachel Passer and Heather Passaro.

Dr. Bruce Davidson (44:07)

Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily Beast podcast@thedailybeast.com podcasts if you enjoyed this.

Joanna Coles (44:16)

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