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- [00:00]
Michael Wolff
This theory just popped into my head. Politics at this point in time is the intersection of conspiracy and hypochondria. RFK Jr understands that and that is the circumstance and the issue. The zeitgeist that he is going to try to run to take him to the presidency. This intense focus on one's own well being, which is a form of hypochondria. Of course everything is broken. I feel bad. I think RFK Jr still Jr at 72 understands this and sees it as a very potent issue. Everybody is running for president. Everybody is exploring their next career step. This is theoretically in this podcast that he does, the Food Pyramid. So he's gonna be the food Pyramid president.
- [00:58]
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Michael.
- [01:00]
Joanna Coles
Joanna, it's in the late 80s here, temperature wise, but the feel is 105.
- [01:11]
Michael Wolff
Soup.
- [01:12]
Joanna Coles
It's soup. It's thick, thick soup.
- [01:15]
Michael Wolff
New York, New York soup. It's, it's. Well, there's a cool breeze out here. Of course, because it's the Hamptons, of course.
- [01:22]
Joanna Coles
Of course, because you live in New York billionaire territory, Michael, whereas I am a working stiff in the city. But so much to get to.
- [01:32]
Michael Wolff
Well, there's a few billionaires I know
- [01:35]
Joanna Coles
in your neighborhood, possibly. Before we get into this delicious array of topics, something I'm sure RFK Jr himself could whip up a meal with our ingredients today. A reminder to subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We are independent media. The reason that Michael and I can go inside Donald Trump's head three times a week is because of your support. We appreciate it. So just press the subscription button wherever you are. So much to get through your forgotten memory syndrome of your meetings with Max Miller. We have to get to RFK Junior's new podcast. Michael, we're late to this. He dropped his first episode six days ago. I've watched it so our viewers and listeners don't have to. And of course he's doing that while the country experiences Explosive diarrhea. 22,000 cases. The helipad on the South Lawn. What's going on with the helipad? It's being dismantled and rebuilt and of course I actually wondered if we should rename this podcast, which we've called Inside Trump's Head. And it's where we've been going for the last year. In fact, next Tuesday is our one year anniversary.
- [02:57]
Michael Wolff
How many is that?
- [02:59]
Joanna Coles
Almost 200, actually. But I wondered if we should rename it Inside Trump's Hair.
- [03:07]
Michael Wolff
Well, I can tell you what's inside Trump's hair, actually.
- [03:11]
Joanna Coles
His new hairstyle. It's got to be a mix of. I think it's woolen acrylic. I need to understand all of it. But first, we should remind people who we are. You are Michael Wolf. Describe yourself.
- [03:23]
Michael Wolff
This often happens to me that there's. Because I do a lot of podcasts and people say, so who are you? And let me actually expand on that story, is that I went to a high school many, many, many years ago, and I didn't have a good time there. And ever since, I've been waiting the invitation to go back and speak before this high school and tell them all the problems with this high school and why I didn't like it and why I was so unhappy. And I have gotten many invitations to speak at many schools, but never once at the school that I went to. And then a few years ago, I did get the invitation. We were reaching out to alumni who have distinguished themselves in their careers. And I thought, oh, finally, here I am. And I said, I would be delighted to return. And then they said, and can we ask what was the field that you distinguished yourself in?
- [04:29]
Joanna Coles
All right, well, I can answer that. It's writing books about very relevant subjects. Rupert Murdoch, not least. It's really, you're very good about writing about power, about famous people. And I tend to think of it as the seven deadly sins, about greed, envy, ambition, all the things that trip people up in their quest for the brass ring.
- [04:51]
Michael Wolff
I would just qualify that. I think that my interest is in characters and writing about characters and larger than life characters, which, of course, brought me to Donald Trump, who I have written about now for 10 years. And I have written about, not because I'm a political reporter or even particularly interested in politics, but I am interested in character, often ridiculous characters, and also consequential characters.
- [05:22]
Joanna Coles
Consequential characters. And I am interested in characters, too, which is what we focus on at the Daily Beast. Characters, people, power and politics and how people misuse power. And to be fair, I think Donald Trump is misusing the mix of. What is that on his head that he debuted last night, Michael? It looks like a hamster.
- [05:47]
Michael Wolff
Well, I, I can tell you what's. What's under Don. Donald Trump's hair. And what is under Donald Trump's hair is nothing.
- [05:57]
Joanna Coles
It's not.
- [05:58]
Michael Wolff
It is. You see the top of my head? I can do it. That, that, that's actually what the top of Donald Trump's head is like. And he have. He has constructed this thing. And in my book, Fire and Fury, I have a description of Ivanka at A moment in time when she was still amused by her father and often making fun of her father, describes the elaborate architectural process of maintaining that dome over nothing. I mean, one of the greatest, I think we can safely say the greatest combover of, of all time.
- [06:44]
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Of all time.
- [06:44]
Joanna Coles
No one's seen anything like it.
- [06:46]
Michael Wolff
And I mean, is she really interested of, of, of each strand having to come up? And as each strand comes up, the hairspray comes on. And in the end you have this, you've constructed a dome, a perfect dome.
- [07:02]
Joanna Coles
I, I'm, I'm very surprised that it's not, you know, the FDA hasn't banned it because it looks so highly flammable. I mean, it looks as if he went anywhere near a candle, a candle or a naked match, the whole thing would just go up. Just go up.
- [07:20]
Michael Wolff
Well, I don't know. It's very firm. Actually. It's more surprising that wind gusts and the helicopter, which we will get to, doesn't pick it up. But that is the cementing. This is kind of cemented down by hairspray. I mean, this is a very essential component of Donald Trump's identity and career. And he's very, I mean, one of my favorite passages in, in, at this point in all literature is Stormy Daniels describing when they're lying in bed and she asks him about his hair, hey, what's with that hair? And he tells her, and he tells her in a very self aware way. It's really one of the few instances of self awareness that have ever been ascribed to Donald Trump. And he said, you know, I was a handsome guy. You know, I had a, you know, I had a great, great head of hair. And then I started to lose it. So, so I started to compensate for it. And, and that suddenly became what people were talking about when they talked about, about me. And I realized that this was a, you know, a brand differentiator that they, that they remembered me because of my hair.
- [08:49]
Joanna Coles
So interesting. I mean, I hope he's spraying it with fire retardant. I'm assuming that they've got that in some of the spray that they put on there, but it's definitely a differentiator. I mean, in all seriousness, and as his, his over the top fake tan and the way he has those kind of circles around it. Cause obviously someone comes in and spray tans him and I wonder if he's just realized that's his physical brand and it helps him, as you say, differentiate.
- [09:17]
Michael Wolff
I think absolutely, without question. I mean, this is what I mean. First thing again, that Fundamental thing to remind everyone he's a performer. 14 years as the star of a top rated reality television show. That's. It is about people looking at you. He understands that, as so many politicians, by the way, do not.
- [09:46]
Joanna Coles
Right.
- [09:46]
Michael Wolff
I mean, because, for. For. For good reasons. You know, being a politician was being a kind of a policy wonk and a guy in an office and a guy behind, behind, you know, backroom doors and all of that. Donald Trump was. Is among those people who have fully and completely understood that politics is about people looking at you. Something Joe Biden never, ever got. Joe Biden, Mr. Gray, Mr. Translucent. All he would have had to have done probably to be reelected is get himself a pair of very dark glasses, not dissimilar from mine or more to the point, Cary Grant's.
- [10:31]
Joanna Coles
Well, he did have aviators. He did wear his aviators.
- [10:36]
Michael Wolff
Aviators, not good aviators have a very thin frame. You've got to find something to draw people's attention away from your grayness.
- [10:53]
Joanna Coles
Running a business means you're always reachable until you're not.
- [10:57]
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- [10:59]
Joanna Coles
that text, that follow up, a competitor
- [11:02]
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- [11:59]
Joanna Coles
well, interestingly, the only person around the cabinet table that probably understands that as well as Donald Trump is Pete Hegseth, who does his whole accessories thing with his American flag pin, which I guess they all wear that, but his sort of accessories that he has, his pocket square, his gray suits, which are a little too tight for him. His. His pants, which are a tiny bit too short. It's a very specific kind of look among men.
- [12:24]
Michael Wolff
Well, well, yeah, I'd add RFK to that. That's also a very cultivated and practiced look. And it's a look. And it's a look It's a very, it's an interesting look because it's look, it's a look that's all about recalling the early 1960s, which is obviously from, from whence his legacy came.
- [12:46]
Joanna Coles
Well, and if you were RFK Jr you would want to refer back then too, and not what's going on now. But we are going to talk about his podcast, which I'm very excited to do. But I did want to talk to you about after we were talking on what day is it today? Thursday. When we were talking on Tuesday, you had recovered memory syndrome after remembering running into Max Miller. Max Miller, of course, the son of, well, he's a Republican congressman. He, he's running for office again in a very tight seat and he's been accused by his ex wife who is the daughter of senior senator from Ohio, Bernie Marino. He's accused of alleged assault, holding a gun to her and being an altogether
- [13:38]
Michael Wolff
violent person, vile things toward his wife.
- [13:40]
Joanna Coles
Vile person.
- [13:41]
Michael Wolff
The daughter of the senator from, from Ohio. I mean, it's interesting, you get a kind of picture of this guy's career of the congressman who marries the senator's daughter. But, and in fact, so Max Miller, and it was in the song I was saying Max Miller. I mean it's one of those names. But then I got this clear. Yes, I remember this guy in the 2016 campaign. He was a, a, you know, a young guy and a gopher, one of many gophers around, around the campaign, around Trump. But he was a famous gopher for being actually even more of a suck up than all of the other suck ups. And Trump really liked him. So he became early on in the campaign my Max and then my Max after they won in, after they went into the White House in 2017, had all kinds of jobs within the white, I think relatively unimportant jobs, but jobs that he was in no way qualified for. He had no qualifications at all. And then he became, then he ran for Congress because he was my Max, my Max. Why don't you run for Congress? Ran for Congress in Ohio, won the seat, married the senator's daughter and now has become, I think in any interpretation an absolute albatross around Trump's neck, accused of all kinds of vile things, plus risking that seat at a moment when every seat counts for the Republicans in Congress and yet Trump doesn't dump him. Why?
- [15:40]
Joanna Coles
Well, so we had this conversation on Tuesday because the news had just broken. Well, in fact, the congressman himself, Max Miller, had told people that Donald Trump had called him. And the assumption was, I think by pretty much everybody covering this story that Donald Trump had called him to tell him to get out of the race.
- [15:59]
Michael Wolff
A further point, that Donald Trump or the White House had leaked to Axios, that that's in fact what he had done.
- [16:08]
Joanna Coles
Correct. And you said, what did you say?
- [16:11]
Michael Wolff
And I said, well, we would, we didn't. I mean, Axios was saying that Trump said get out of the race. Max Miller was saying, no, he didn't say that to me at all. Quite the opposite. So the question is who was telling the truth? And we said that, well, we would have eyes on who was telling the truth. And because Max Miller had to get out of the race by yesterday, Wednesday, and if he did not, then that would be a pretty good indication that Trump didn't tell him to get out of the race, that Trump was standing by him. Because otherwise Max Miller, who is just, as I say, a Trump suck up, would have done, necessarily have done what Trump said. So Trump didn't say that. So he lied to Axios to keep Bernie Moreno, the senator happy. And everyone else, by the way, because they're all saying you gotta dump this guy. But Trump was not dumping this guy.
- [17:13]
Guest Chef
Why?
- [17:14]
Michael Wolff
And I think the why goes to a key inside Trump's head motivation, which is that he refuses to, to be. It's almost the central fight he wages not to be told what to do by anyone else. I think almost, you can almost see almost everything in the White House. Every dumbass thing that goes on goes on because somebody is trying to suggest to Trump that's not the logical thing. That's not even the advantageous thing. You should, you should do a better thing. And Trump is like, no, people don't tell me what to do. I tell them what to do. Always, always it is a problem with Trump with authority. He must be the ultimate authority. He is. No one is the boss. Donald Trump, no one is the boss of me.
- [18:13]
Joanna Coles
Well, the other thing, of course, that people have been telling him since before February is that, that it might be much more complicated going into Iran than Venezuela was. He decided not to listen. He thought he could pull it off. And now he appears to be blaming Pete Hegseth and the Pentagon for the failure of America's progress and in fact the backwards move of the Iranians now having control of the Strait of Hormuzz. So now he's looking for someone to blame for the war.
- [18:48]
Michael Wolff
He is never wrong. Not once in a ten year political career has there been that moment of acknowledging an error, even rethinking, walking back the things that normal politicians, almost every politician has to do and has to encounter, no matter if, if they would, if they would prefer to be right all the time. They are not right all the time. The distinguishing factor about Donald Trump is that in his mind he is absolutely right all the time. And if something goes wrong, say a war, it is somebody else's fault. And this week it's Pete Haggs fault, which seems to me to be inevitable.
- [19:39]
Joanna Coles
So the Secretary of Forever wars has been apparently shouted at several times by Donald Trump because we're running out of munitions. Or are we? On the one hand, Donald Trump tells everybody we've got piles of munitions, but in fact it turns out that we seem to be going through them at a rapid click.
- [20:01]
Michael Wolff
No. And then that became the now that's the excuse for why he didn't go to all out war. Bigger war than the second World War I think is how he put it this past week. I mean there has been a succession of instances when he has not gone to all out war, bigger than the second world War and then reversed himself and said, oh no, no, no, they're no problem, they're negotiating. It actually went Friday, all out war. Sunday they're negotiating. And then I think on Tuesday it was these sons of bit are we're gonna get them. We can't get them because we don't have any missiles.
- [20:47]
Joanna Coles
And I think on Saturday it was like we were going to bomb them, we were going to bomb the hell out of them. But then the Iranians said to us, please don't bomb us. So we decided not to bomb them in a week. I mean, absolute madness as a war strategy. I'm just insane in complete insanity. If weight loss has felt like a
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- [22:32]
Michael Wolff
about the missile thing is, everybody has been saying, really from the, from, from the, the get go, this is the number of missiles. We do have a limited supply of missiles and I mean, we have a big supply, but at some level they, that they're going to run out and they take a long time to resupply. So that has happened. Trump has now acting like, oh, my God, it's a big surprise. And why didn't anyone tell me? Nobody told me that we were going to run out of missiles. Nobody counted the missiles.
- [23:08]
Joanna Coles
I mean, how can we be laughing about this stuff except it's literally like watching children. So apparently, when they were at Camp David last week, which, as you pointed out, Trump was pretending to be presidential and pretending to gather his people around him to get advanced thinking about how to get out of the Iranian situation that he has completely gotten himself stuck
- [23:31]
Michael Wolff
into, at the same time, he was thinking, how do I get out of Camp David because I'm not going to lie on those sheets.
- [23:39]
Joanna Coles
Exactly. Anyway, I'm going to read a piece from the Washington Post that Jeff Bezos owned Washington Post, no less. Perhaps Jeff is beginning to shift on his haunches, understanding what's going to come at the midterms. So this is about the blaming of Pete Hegseth and the realization that Trump has, that he's going to have to blame someone else for the catastrophic situation in the Strait of Hormuz. Back at Camp David, as he was confronted by Trump over the bear weapons stockpile, Hegseth defended himself and blamed his deputy, Steven Feinberg for the shortages and for not ensuring Trump was fully apprised of the issue. People familiar with the situation said the exchange underscored Trump's increasing frustration with his defense secretary Secretary, who was one of the biggest, earliest advocates for taking military action against Iran. Convincing Trump it would be a quick and relatively easy win, according to multiple officials. And of course, Caroline Levitt has weighed in and said this is 100% fake news. Literally never happened. So that's from Machine Gun Lips herself that this is all.
- [24:52]
Michael Wolff
Okay, just let me clarify there. That would have been all. That characterization of Pete Hagseth would have come from the White House.
- [25:03]
Joanna Coles
Right.
- [25:03]
Michael Wolff
And then the White House, it says. And it's actually the tell that they said, no, no, no, this never happened. Love each other.
- [25:11]
Joanna Coles
So they put. And this always reminds me of Princess Diana in London, who would call up with stories about herself and then the next day would deny it and threaten to sue the paper when she, she was the source. I mean, all the Royal family have done this forever. I mean.
- [25:30]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, constantly. And it's just a. Well, it's a constant thing, frankly, of all White Houses. But it particularly goes on in this White House because Trump himself is the leaker.
- [25:44]
Joanna Coles
Right. Or he's one of the leakers. I mean, there are several leakers. Right. But what's interesting here, I think is, and if one was asked to analyze this in an exam and point to the most dangerous line in it, it's probably the description of Pete Hegseth as one of the biggest early advocates for taking military action against Iran, convincing Trump.
- [26:10]
Michael Wolff
Absolutely. So who's going to be blamed? And I've said from the beginning that this was inevitable, that it would come back to Pete Hegseth, who Trump has pushed out there. Pushed in the front, pushed, you know, not. I mean, we're going to have an Anthony Fauci moment here in which, as you recall, Trump pushed Anthony Fauci into the front and then he became the person, the person to blame for all, all of this. So let's think now, this is how we see Pete Hegseth at this point, this loyal Trump guy on the Trump team doing everything that Trump wants within X number of months. We are going to see Pete Hegseth, understand him, that he's a betrayer, that he undermined the administration, that it was his incompetence that led to war, not the incompetence of the commander in chief who apparently forgot to ask how many bullets we have.
- [27:19]
Joanna Coles
Right. And we really, apparently are running out. There is no stockpile. But the good news is that we're not running out of toilet paper, unlike during COVID Do you remember during COVID when everybody was panic buying? And I remember I had a house full of children. I have my son.
- [27:38]
Michael Wolff
I was really wondering for a second where you're going to go with that. Toilet paper. Toilet paper.
- [27:43]
Joanna Coles
You know where I'm going with it.
- [27:44]
Michael Wolff
But now I know.
- [27:45]
Joanna Coles
Okay, now you know. Now you know. Talking about explosive weapons. But I remember during COVID I had a house full of kids, my sons, several of their friends, their girlfriends. And the one thing I was panicked about was toilet paper. So I ordered wheels of toilet paper from China and enormous wheels came. And actually, I still, I think, have some of this horrid brown, nevertheless strongly absorbent toilet paper that came through and it was much too big to ever put on a normal toilet roll hold.
- [28:21]
Michael Wolff
And your decision not to get Charmin but to get Chinese toilet roll.
- [28:26]
Joanna Coles
There wasn't any Charmin. You couldn't find it. You couldn't find any Scott toilet tissue. Everybody had sold out. Amazon didn't have it, the local IGA didn't have it. Nobody had it. So that was why I was stockpiling
- [28:38]
Michael Wolff
it from China in my house. We had it.
- [28:41]
Joanna Coles
Of course you had it. You probably had extra soft whatever. But there was a panic buy of toilet roll and I contributed to that, is all I'm saying. But the good news is there's no panic buy yet. Perhaps there should be, because there's 22,000 cases of cyclospora exploding diarrhea, which has meant that lettuce is now something that obviously people are avoiding. Iceberg lettuce in particular.
- [29:05]
Michael Wolff
Well, well, lettuce. Lettuce in plastic bags. I just would like to go on record that there's lots of lettuce that does not come in plastic bags. Maybe the country is surprised actually exists outside of a plastic bag. But anyway, are you encouraging people to
- [29:21]
Joanna Coles
come and forage in your garden? Because that's what it sounds like.
- [29:25]
Michael Wolff
Well, there are many garden. Just if you see lettuce in a plastic bag, don't buy it. If you see it's not in a plastic bag, safe for you.
- [29:36]
Joanna Coles
I love lettuce in a plastic bag because I find one of the great bores of lettuce is having to wash it thoroughly. So if someone else can wash my lettuce for me, I am thrilled. I will buy lettuce in plastic bags every day. Every day.
- [29:50]
Michael Wolff
Well, and then diarrhea will be your reward.
- [29:54]
Joanna Coles
Oi, oi, oi. Well, that's not what I was expecting. But what I am fascinated by is the fact that rfk, amid an explosive diarrhea outbreak, I mean, this has gone through 10 states at this point, if not more. Is busy making videos of how to cook. And I actually thoroughly applaud the idea of showing people how to cook again. Although goodness knows, YouTube is packed full of how to cook videos, incredibly good videos, as is Instagram. So many people pop online and just show you in 30 seconds how to make something delicious and cheap and nourishing. And it's a great thing to do with your kids. You grew up cooking. Well, your kids grew up with you cooking in the kitchen. My kids grew up with me faffing around in the kitchen. It always felt like the place of last resort to keep one's children entertained. And then you got to eat it.
- [30:51]
Michael Wolff
Well, you do have to feed your children.
- [30:54]
Joanna Coles
Yeah, exactly.
- [30:55]
Michael Wolff
So you have to be involved, but more importantly, you have to feed them.
- [30:59]
Joanna Coles
Okay, well, you have to feed them, but.
- [31:00]
Michael Wolff
But every day. But three meals.
- [31:04]
Joanna Coles
Brutal. Well, hopefully that's.
- [31:05]
Michael Wolff
I have had a lot of children, so I have made a lot of meals.
- [31:08]
Joanna Coles
Okay, well, you've made more meals than I have, and I've almost forgotten how to make meals, so I applaud what he's trying to do. He managed, however, to make it an utterly joyless experience. We're going to play a couple of clips from Cooking Real Food, by which I don't mean roadkill that he's picked up on his way home or the whale head that he sawed off and strapped to the top of his family car with the whale juices seeping into the windows as the kids drove along.
- [31:42]
Guest Chef
You know, Secretary Kennedy, I'll tell you a crazy story. So I grew up in that world. All I ate was cereal, pasta, refined carbs, et cetera. I went to a small college and suffered having horrible stomach issues. And I actually ended up dropping out of college and got into the restaurant industry because it was the only place I had a safe haven because my stomach issues were so bad. It wasn't until 2014, when I completely cut seed oils out of my diet and all of the processed foods that I actually healed my entire body strictly with diet. That's after they tried to prescribe me antidepressants, claiming that it was the neurotransmitters in my intestines. They tried to give me anti anxiety medication, and it wasn't until I changed my diet, ironically after becoming a chef, that it all got healed.
- [32:23]
Joanna Coles
At least it made you happy, right?
- [32:26]
Guest Chef
Yep.
- [32:26]
Michael Wolff
Well, I would have responded the same way. What is this guy going on? You know?
- [32:31]
Joanna Coles
But why choose him as first chef? Michael, why choose him? I mean, he actually makes a rather delicious looking meal, which, if I get my act together, I will make over the weekend and bring you in on Tuesday.
- [32:42]
Michael Wolff
I have a new theory. Can I propound a new theory?
- [32:45]
Joanna Coles
Please propound a new theory. But it's not just your regular cooking video is what I'm saying.
- [32:52]
Michael Wolff
My theory. And I'm going to expand on this. I just. This theory just popped into my head at this point.
- [33:00]
Joanna Coles
They're the best of your theories.
- [33:02]
Michael Wolff
That politics at this point in time is the intersection of conspiracy and hypochondria.
- [33:10]
Joanna Coles
Interesting, interesting.
- [33:13]
Michael Wolff
And it is this thing, and that is, we can go further. RFK Jr understands that, and that is the circumstance and the issue that he, the zeitgeist, that he is going to try to run to take him to the presidency. So he talks conspiracy hypochondria.
- [33:35]
Joanna Coles
So what's the conspiracy here? The conspiracy is the food industrial complex.
- [33:41]
Michael Wolff
Exactly. Or all other conspiracies which he has embraced of which so many he has embraced. And then that intersects with the fear, with this thing, this national, this national sense that people are ill because of. And then list any number of the reasons. But this intense focus on one's own well being, which is a form of hypochondria. Of course, everything is broken. I feel bad. I feel bad. There must be a reason. I feel bad or I feel bad because. Because people are doing things to me. They're polluting, they're undermining, whatever. It all comes together. And I think RFK Jr, still Jr at 72, understands this and sees it as a very potent issue. It's, you know, the. I mean, this is theoretically in this podcast that he does the Food Pyramid. So he's gonna be the food pyramid,
- [34:54]
Joanna Coles
the food pyramid president. Well, maybe people are feeling bad because they've got measles, because they haven't had a vaccination for it. Is that possible? I mean, we've. Now they will.
- [35:06]
Michael Wolff
But obviously that's part of the conspiracy. And, and actually remember it is we are sick because we got a vaccine. Because that's part of the conspiracy.
- [35:17]
Joanna Coles
Yeah.
- [35:17]
Michael Wolff
Not when. Which is obviously significantly truer is we are not sick because we got a vaccine.
- [35:26]
Joanna Coles
Of course. So I love this idea that his platform is essentially conspiracy. Well, I guess his platform is the food Pyramid presidency with this underlying assumption of conspiracy and hypochondria and people's obsession with how they're feeling and their wellness, all of which is. So it's sort of replaced, I guess, religion in terms of self absorption and trying to find answers to things, to why we're not happier, to why there is, as he refers to in the podcast, loneliness. An epidemic of loneliness because we're not all gathering around the table.
- [36:12]
Michael Wolff
Epidemic of something. Epidemic is very important. That will become these important words here.
- [36:18]
Joanna Coles
Epidemic of loneliness. Constant crisis. The health crisis.
- [36:22]
Guest Chef
Yeah.
- [36:22]
Michael Wolff
All a form of hypochondria of looking at the body. Assuming all of your problems are related to things going wrong in your body. When things go wrong, as soon as you Start to think this, it becomes a circular thing. The idea is implanted. RFK is in some sense implanting this idea. And then people go, oh, my God. Yes, I, I, you know, I feel it.
- [36:53]
Joanna Coles
Well, is it him that's implanting it or is it his brainworm?
- [37:00]
Michael Wolff
Well, it's a conspiracy there. There you go, Joanna.
- [37:03]
Joanna Coles
There we go. So what I'm fascinated by is, you know, the juxtaposition of more cases of measles in the first six months of this year than in the first 20 years of the millennium. 22,000 cases of explosive diarrhea, which is the most the country has ever seen. It's seven times higher than it normally is recorded.
- [37:22]
Michael Wolff
You really love that combination of explosive and diarrhea?
- [37:26]
Joanna Coles
I really do because it's so indicative of something that's going on right now, which is cabinet secretaries not seeming to do their jobs. So where are the health and the food inspectors? Well, RFK is busy making videos to launch his own platform. Sean Duffy has made a reality show of his family driving across America, apparently to reflect America back on itself as a reality show. Meanwhile, yesterday, Marine One, the president's helicopter came very close to crashing with another airborne vehicle in the same space where a helicopter took out a plane 18 months ago. I mean, what is Sean Duffy doing? He's the train transport secretary.
- [38:14]
Michael Wolff
I will tell you, everybody is running for president. Everybody is running for president. Everybody is, is, is, is exploring their next career step. I mean, and this is, this is actually what happens in, in presidential second terms. It's actually why all, all, almost all second terms go awry because people stop working because they see the end date, they're going to lose their jobs, and they have to then begin the process of preparing for the next job. And the next job, May 1, for a variety of them at a certain level, at a cabinet level, will be, I should run for president. RFK Jr. Is running for president. Sean Duffy, dark horse, but I'm sure he figures why not J.D. vance? Where is J.D. vance? Writing books. Out there talking. Again, Everybody is positioning themselves, and that means not doing their jobs by the very nature of what that takes to be out there, to go through in this process of presenting themselves, of branding themselves, of whatever you want to call wallet. It's another job in itself which will then take away from the job that they are being paid to do.
- [39:45]
Joanna Coles
Well, one person who did a good job of getting himself elected, Abdul Al Sayed, who won the primary for the Democrats to be Senate candidate in Michigan, had an enormous amount of money spent against him, 60 million. It was the most expensive of primary race to date and knocks out Haley Stevens, a four time congresswoman who had the governor. Gretchen Whitmer, outgoing governor we should point out because she'll be running for president too for the Democrats, got her endorsement but didn't manage to. It was such a close race. There was 1% in it.
- [40:24]
Michael Wolff
Well, I think there are two points about this. First, that it was such a close race and it wasn't supposed to be. El Sayed was supposed to, this was supposed to be a sweep for him. It was not. And that presents a whole set of complications, even more complications for the Democrats. But I also want to note that El Sayed is a, a former podcaster. So we may be seeing a whole, a whole new category of candidates. Joanna Coles podcast candidates. I think you might have a future.
- [41:05]
Joanna Coles
Oh, I might have a future? Pray what, Michael, in what exactly? You might have a future too, as
- [41:11]
Michael Wolff
a, as a political figure. I think you should be. I am too old, Michael.
- [41:19]
Joanna Coles
You're not too old.
- [41:20]
Michael Wolff
Curmudgeonly too whatever.
- [41:23]
Joanna Coles
Not at all, Michael.
- [41:25]
Michael Wolff
But you, you I think, I think are. I could ideally step into this role.
- [41:31]
Joanna Coles
Well, what I was going to point out is you're 12 years younger than Bernie Sanders. He's also a curmudgeon. He's also, you know, in theory, an independent. You're definitely an independent. I see you joining the parish council of Easthampton, which sounds like it needs a bit of straightening out because there's been some local corruption there recently. Recently, or at least at the pta. Yeah, the pta. Someone's been snaffling the resources of the PTA in Sag harbor, which may be your neighboring town.
- [42:05]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I know nothing about that, but we're going to have a discussion about this. I'm going to lead the draft Joanna Coles movement.
- [42:15]
Joanna Coles
Now you're just being mischievous.
- [42:17]
Michael Wolff
But actually, let me make the more, the more serious point. But it, it is that, that performative aspect of politics, which obviously the model is Donald Trump, 14 years as the star of a top rated reality television show. Okay. Mr. El Said was for three or four years did a podcast with a big podcasting group, Crooked Media, and I think probably learned, certainly refined the skills of presenting to large groups of people. His opponent, Haley Stevens, does not have that skill, did not learn that skill, probably had no opportunity to learn that. And I think that was a clear contrast. This guy on a stage in front of a television camera is really pretty good. And I think that's one of the things that sold this through, probably in spite of his being a democratic socialist or whatever, and certainly significantly to the left of where the electorate is, they looked at this guy and said, hey, yeah, good looking and speaks well. I'm not getting bored by what he's saying. Let's go for him.
- [43:44]
Joanna Coles
Well, and Donald Trump immediately turned his guns on him, thus elevating him and giving him much more prominence. And I mean, he says he's not a member of the dsa. He very specifically says that although his positions seem to be very much in line with DSA positions, but because the majority, the Republican majority in the Senate is so slim.
- [44:09]
Michael Wolff
Well, in theory, he is easier to defeat for the Republicans than Haley Stevens, a moderate, someone who theoretically offends no one or offends very significantly fewer people than Al Sayed. So this will be an interesting test of that. And, and it actually may turn out to be that candidates like El Sayed, who are more, more notable, more full of energy, attract more attention, are more, are more forceful in their opposition to Donald Trump, have an advantage. I mean, we'll see. I mean, that's the proposition that has now been set up.
- [45:05]
Joanna Coles
Well, and it certainly worked for Zoram Mamdani, who's very much a TikTok mayor. It's how he came to prominence. And again, Donald Trump fascinated by him and sort of game recognizing game in terms of them understanding how to perform for people and play the role that they actually want. Donald Trump bewilderingly, a second time got elected. But first time I could understand why people might, might find him appealing because he was going to be an outsider, he was going to uproot things, he was going to drain the swamp. And of course he sent himself to the swamp.
- [45:42]
Michael Wolff
You know, I think that the other thing that's set up in this El Sayed race is how really how deep is the revulsion toward Donald Trump. So it doesn't matter. In other words, it won't matter who El Sayed is. He's just a placeholder to benefit from this deep, deep reaction to Donald Trump. To the end of Donald Trump, let's say the downfall of Donald Trump. And I don't whether that works or not. We'll see.
- [46:24]
Joanna Coles
Well, I wonder if the reflecting pool will be ready for the election in November. As we know, it's been the subject of enormous Sturman Drang. We discussed Jeanine Pirro being pulled in to be yelled at by Donald Trump at the White House last Friday after she refused to go after Davy Hearn, the Olympian Kayaker who she had initially arrested and tried to indict with accusations that he'd vandalized the skin of the reflecting pool. And instead she blamed it firmly on a shoddy contracting work and blamed Doug Burgum, the Secretary of the Interior, who really one doesn't hear from at all. I mean, he sits around the table. He's as obsequious as everybody else. Former governor of North Dakota, but has largely avoided Trump's ire, possibly because he's a billionaire. So Trump, Trump holds him in a different regard to some of the other cabinet ministers. But Pirro and Burgum apparently really got into it.
- [47:33]
Michael Wolff
I'm going to take issue with that.
- [47:36]
Joanna Coles
Go on.
- [47:38]
Michael Wolff
What we. The stories that, that came out after the, after this meeting with the president of the United States, Judge Jeanine going to the White House and in this, in the telling, confronting the president with the truth that she had come to understand because despite Doug Burgum's misinformation or even cover up, that was the next day narrative. Okay, that comes from Jeanine Pirroult. That's a leak. She's seeding that. That's not what happened. It is not possible that somebody goes in there and confronts Donald Trump. Not possible. Doesn't happen. Nature does not provide for that possibility. And, but she's leaking that. I would say she recognizes she is going to be fired and she is now trying to put the best spin on it as possible. And that's all, folks. That's it. She's done.
- [48:51]
Joanna Coles
So is the person who tried to install the helicopter pad on the South Lawn of the White House amazingly close, I have to say, to the balcony, to the Truman Balcony? I mean, it's right there. It looked as if it was about to be finished, and then Donald Trump decided it was on a slope and demanded the whole thing be dismantled and rebuilt.
- [49:16]
Michael Wolff
Well, there are so many levels of this. Why is there a helicopter pad being built on the White House grounds after so many years of so many presidents coming and going by helicopter? I mean, there's something, something. It's a new kind of helicopter. It can't land, which I suspect is all.
- [49:37]
Joanna Coles
Well, I thought it was that. It was because the new helicopters, the Sikorsky helicopters that they're having in for Marine One scorched the grass.
- [49:47]
Michael Wolff
Well, whatever. I mean, that seems pretty. They scorched the grass. Where is this? We accept this. They scorch the grass. You know, I'm sure that's not true. I'm sure that's not even a thing or I'm sure all helicopters do something to the grass. Anyway, this is. This has fishy written all over it. And what it is, is Donald Trump. I want it. I. I want a helicopter. I come by helicopter. I want to go right to the front door. I don't want to. I don't want any.
- [50:19]
Joanna Coles
Any.
- [50:20]
Michael Wolff
I don't want to be disturbed in any other way. And also, I like to build things and I like to leave things. I want this entire White House to be a. To have my name written all over it. After I leave, everything they will think about this White House, everything they will see about in this White House will remind them of me, Donald Trump. And so we will essentially obliterate a significant part of the White House law for this helipad. Why a helipad? I mean. I mean, come on.
- [50:59]
Joanna Coles
Is it.
- [51:00]
Guest Chef
Do you think?
- [51:00]
Joanna Coles
Because it's gonna make the walk to the White House shorter, which means there'll be fewer opportunities for us to see his right leg, which has developed a sort of weird gait.
- [51:11]
Michael Wolff
Well, I. For all of the reasons and the central reason. Because I can.
- [51:19]
Joanna Coles
Because I can.
- [51:21]
Michael Wolff
I want it. Why isn't there. And I can see this going. Why isn't there a helipad here? I love a helipad. A helipad. I gotta have a helipad. I'm the president. Presidents have helipads. Putin has a helipad. I want a helipad. And I'm sure he's repeated this word helipad so many times that it kind of becomes a fact of life in the White House. We need a helipad. And. And so the helipad was erected, and now it's. We don't know why it is suddenly being pulled apart. Why? We don't know. Because that's not a helipad the way I want a helipad. This is not how you build a helipad. I know how you build a helipad. And on and on and on. A reality that comes out of Donald Trump's head and has no relationship to. Well, certainly has no relationship to good taste and no relationship to any kind of respect for the historic entity of the White House and the White House lawn and probably has nothing to do with actually a helipad, because what does Donald Trump know about helipads except for that he is suddenly appropriated and extraordinary expertise about helipads?
- [52:44]
Joanna Coles
Well, I wonder if he's going to have the seal somehow incorporate either the Donald J. Trump helipad, which, you know, his name's been scraped off the outside of the Kennedy center, although there's still a tarp hanging over it, so you can't see that final humiliation there. Or I actually wondered if they were going to put in an image of his face. I thought perhaps the helicopter could land on his face.
- [53:13]
Michael Wolff
I guess we will see.
- [53:16]
Joanna Coles
Well, there was a very amusing. Mark Carney, the Canadian Prime Minister, hit a very amusing note which had other world leaders laughing at Trump. We're going to play a clip, but it just reminded me of sort of Trump's obsessions and conspiracies.
- [53:34]
Michael Wolff
Snickering, I would say, at Trump.
- [53:36]
Joanna Coles
Snickering. Snickering, Yeah.
- [53:40]
Michael Wolff
I would like to inform you that the teleprompter has ceased to function. Unlike a certain world leader, I do not view this as a conspiracy.
- [53:56]
Joanna Coles
Very nice response by Mark Carney there. But what's so interesting is the way he sort of laughs and the way the crowd laughs and he's. He's announcing a housing project there, so it's not like he's at the G20 summit, but the sort of knowing laughter about what he's talking about. And the foolishness of Donald Trump.
- [54:15]
Michael Wolff
No, I think it's interesting moment or new phase that the fear of Donald Trump is passing into the mockery of Donald Trump.
- [54:26]
Joanna Coles
The fear is passing into the mockery that we're at that stage. Yeah. Well, that's a good note on which to say. We'll be back on Saturday. We're going to be talking about Melania on Saturday. Among other things. You've been writing a series about Melania on your sub slide.
- [54:43]
Michael Wolff
Melania, Melania, Melania, Melania, Melania. You think Trump sits there and goes, melania, Melania. Rolling his eyes. No, I think he quite possibly.
- [54:53]
Joanna Coles
No, I think he's like, natalie, Natalie, bring me my motivational ideas from, you know, Instagram or whatever else she's printing out at that particular moment.
- [55:04]
Michael Wolff
I mean, Natalie, Natalie. I think Melania goes, Natalie, Natalie.
- [55:11]
Joanna Coles
Well, Natalie's the one that went to Camp David with him, and Natalie is the one that went to Los Angeles and Las Vegas over the weekend with him.
- [55:21]
Michael Wolff
I keep trying to explain and have now for several years. There is no place that he is that she is not. They are connected at the hip.
- [55:32]
Joanna Coles
Well, then he's definitely not saying Melania, Melania. He's saying Nathalie. Natalie, Natalie, Natalie, Natalie, Natalie, bring me some printouts. Natalie, bring me good news.
- [55:42]
Michael Wolff
No. Oh, actually, and I think I forget so much during the campaign, he actually became obsessed with this name and started to say to her, I think you should call yourself Nephili. I like does that. And then he would ask people around. Doesn't that suit her, Nathalie? What's that about?
- [56:08]
Joanna Coles
Very strange. Maybe he had something going on with his teeth. Who knows? Natalie. She's called Natalie. And as her brother points out, she has an unhealthy regard for the President. We'll leave it at that, Michael. We'll be back on Saturday. Big thanks. Thanks to you, our listeners and our readers. If you've been joining us, please don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast.
- [56:31]
Michael Wolff
And a big thanks to Joanna Coles. Who? The future candidate from. Maybe you have to go back and be the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. I mean, everyone's getting a chance. Why don't you?
- [56:46]
Joanna Coles
Well, that's true, actually. The Prime Minister of England. I mean, they've just got a new Prime Minister and he looks like he's digging in. He's good on television.
- [56:54]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. Digging in. They all look like they're digging in, the first weeks. And how long will that last? By the evidence, not very long. Your turn will come up.
- [57:07]
Joanna Coles
Will it, Michael? I don't know where this has come from. It's the summer. It's the August doldrums, I think. All right, we'll be back on Saturday. Have a good day until then. And the world will have turned and there'll be much more to discuss. Big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many Beebeast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support.