This Is the Proof that Trump Fears the Grim Reaper

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Daily Beast Podcast

Episode: "This Is the Proof that Trump Fears the Grim Reaper"
Date: July 28, 2026
Host: Joanna Coles (Chief Content Officer, The Daily Beast)
Guests/Regulars: David Rothkopf, Joseph (co-host/producer)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the current political moment, focusing on Donald Trump's apparent unraveling amidst mounting pressures, ongoing wars, and his obsession with legacy and personal insecurity. The hosts—Joanna Coles, David Rothkopf, and Joseph—unpack Trump’s behavior, his tactics for distraction, the media circus surrounding him, and the broader implications for American democracy and global politics. The conversation also touches on international crises with Putin and Netanyahu, the Pentagon’s opacity around war casualties, the impact of oligarch corruption, and recent, eyebrow-raising moves in the Saudi nuclear deal.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Imposter Syndrome and "Grim Reaper" Obsession

• Imposter Syndrome Analysis

  • David Rothkopf asserts:
    "Trump, probably, on some level, despite the fact that he's a narcissist and a psychopath and all these other things, at some level, has the worst case of imposter syndrome in history." (00:00)
  • The show explores Trump’s constant need to insert himself into American history, create self-memorials, and surround himself with icons he feels unworthy of.

• Mortality and Legacy Fixation

  • Rothkopf:
    "He hears the footsteps of the Grim Reaper in the background and wants to memorialize himself everywhere he looks." (00:13, 25:04)
  • The recurring theme is Trump's acute fear of being forgotten or judged harshly by history, propelling his attempts at legacy-building.

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2. Trump’s Public Failures and Desperate Distractions

• White House Correspondents’ Disaster

  • Trump’s recent appearance is described as disastrous—he failed at humor, relied on mean jabs, and the room's silence underscored his isolation.
    • "He's not funny. The Mentalist, not so funny." (04:43)

• Desperate Social Media Frenzy

  • Trump shifts strategy after public embarrassment:
    • Joseph:
      "He did 43 posts yesterday... and he's trying to charge for some of them. Right. That he says will be market moving information." (05:53)
  • Rothkopf notes Truth Social’s failures and Trump's crass attempts to convert ‘insider’ info into profit, highlighting the administration’s normalization of insider trading.
    • "Now he's like, oh, if you pay me $100,000... I'll tell you first. So you can invest and be an insider trader, just like everybody in the White House." (06:29)

• Absurd Self-Images and Symbolic Fantasies

  • Trump posts bizarre images—saving George Washington, donning a doctor’s coat—interpreted as overcompensatory projections of power and legacy.
    • Rothkopf jokes:
      "A powerful, virile man with some mountaineering skills." (06:49)
  • These are dismissed as both ridiculous and revealing of his underlying anxieties.

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3. The Republican Party and Legislative Battles

• 99 Days to the Election—Lame Duck Looming

  • Rothkopf:
    "Donald Trump is terrified of what's going to happen in 99 days. Not only could he lose... but all of a sudden he will be indisputably a lame duck. He'll be on his way out." (08:53)

• Targeting Republican Leaders

  • Trump attacks John Thune and pushes for the SAVE Act, but the hosts dismiss this as futile posturing.
    • Rothkopf:
      "Thune knows we're 99 days away from the general election... and in the general election, you don't just have Republican crazies voting." (12:32)

• Proliferation of Acting Appointments

  • Discussion of Trump using recess appointments and acting department heads to bypass confirmation—the signature move to bypass oversight.
    • "If Todd Blanche doesn't get appointed... Trump will just say, okay, I'm gonna leave him on as a recess appointment." (13:05)

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4. Pentagon Casualty Coverups and Cost of War

• War with Iran—Distorting the Numbers

  • The Pentagon is accused of minimizing American casualties in the ongoing conflict.
    • Joseph:
      "They remove four people from that list of 18 dead for a while because they said, well, it was during the ceasefire, so it doesn't really count..." (19:33)
  • Rothkopf notes the chilling math:
    "If you take the first couple of years of the Afghan war, they did not reach that level casualties that we've reached in four months in this war." (20:13)

• Broader Costs—Economy and Energy

  • This war, unlike previous conflicts, has had immediate global economic repercussions—escalating energy prices and destabilizing the market.

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5. Parallel Meltdowns: Putin and Netanyahu

• Putin’s Isolation and Superpower Myths

  • Putin is described as "hiding in a bunker," increasingly paranoid and disconnected.
    • Rothkopf critiques the ‘superpower mythology’:
      "The United States has lost every single war we've entered... Russia went into Afghanistan, lost, went into Ukraine, lost. We've all learned that having a lot of nuclear weapons which you can't use is not that big a deal..." (27:28)

• Netanyahu Facing Consequences

  • Netanyahu’s upcoming US visit and electoral uncertainty are given analogous treatment—a leader clinging to power through perpetual conflict, but facing possible prosecution if unseated.
    • Rothkopf:
      "If there is an election and it shifts… this could drive further the wedge between the United States and Israel." (35:32)

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6. The Saudi Nuclear Deal—A Symbol of Dysfunction

• Rushed and Corrupt Negotiations
  • The controversial nuclear agreement with Saudi Arabia is explained as another “deal for Trump’s cronies.” Unclear provisions, lack of enrichment safeguards, and cynical leveraging of the Abraham Accords.
    • Rothkopf:
      "Trump undoubtedly said... go do a deal. And so he goes, writes a deal out, has no conditions in it." (39:19)
  • The deal seems deliberately designed for plausible deniability, endless face-saving cycles, and personal gain rather than national interest.

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7. Epstein, The Tates, Oligarchs, and Institutional Corruption

• Connecting the 'Epstein Class' to Systemic Rot
  • The discussion ties the Epstein scandal, the Tates, and figures like Paolo Zampoli directly to the normalization of corruption at the top echelons of American (and global) power.
    • Rothkopf:
      "This Epstein scandal knows no bounds... everything is connected to it, because it's not just about Epstein. It's about the way a certain type of rich, empowered people in person with a sense of impunity acts." (50:49)
    • "Trump is the wet dream of all of these people who think that their billions of dollars buy them the right to do whatever they want." (52:00)
  • “Epstein class” as popularized by John Ossoff reframes the corruption discussion for 2026: the system is rigged, corruption unites the ills of policy, wealth inequality, and eroded democracy.

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8. Trump, Legacy, and Future Historical Judgment

• Smithsonian Paranoia

  • Trump issues orders requiring disclaimers on Smithsonian exhibits, desperate to protect his legacy from factual history.
    • "Trump issued a statement... that outside of the Smithsonian, they have to put up signs saying that the history depicted in the Smithsonian may not actually be accurate..." (58:51)

• Inevitable Reckoning

  • Rothkopf predicts:
    "Think 25 years from now when the Smithsonians got an exhibit on Donald Trump, the worst president ever, the moment American democracy broke down... The golden age of corruption exhibit at the Smithsonian. And Trump will be the center of all that." (60:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s Insecurity and Anxiety:

  • "He knows he doesn't belong there. This guy, he's got imposter syndrome." — David Rothkopf (00:00, 23:52)

• On the Media-Political Circus:

  • "There has never been a circus like the circus that we're watching. Right. And you know, every day there's some insane story." — David Rothkopf (04:24)

• On Corruption and Governance:

  • "The knee bone is connected to the shin bone. That the corruption is connected to oligarchs controlling everything is connected to the fact that the system is rigged..." — David Rothkopf (10:01)

• On Superpowers and Historical Irony:

  • "The United States has lost every single war we've entered or we haven't achieved our goals. ...being a superpower isn't what it's cracked up to be." — David Rothkopf (27:28)

• On the Inescapability of Accountability:

  • "He’s always like, he just stays one pile of bullshit ahead of whatever the current problem is, right? He can't do it anymore." — David Rothkopf (46:38)

• On Future Judgment and Museums:

  • "One of the great twists that will bring true justice to Trump will be history and museums telling it like it is." — David Rothkopf (61:27)

• On Rich Men Getting Away with Everything:

  • "Trump is the wet dream of all these people who think their billions of dollars buy them the right to do whatever they want." — David Rothkopf (52:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:13: Trump’s imposter syndrome and Grim Reaper talk
• 03:15–05:40: White House Correspondents' disaster and failed performance
• 05:53–08:53: Trump’s Truth Social meltdown, bizarre imagery, and “market-moving” posts
• 11:32–14:12: Trump targets GOP leaders and manipulates appointments
• 18:50–20:55: Pentagon’s casualty coverup and cost comparisons to past wars
• 25:04–25:51: Trump’s fear of mortality and the obsession with legacy
• 26:50–28:41: Parallels between Trump, Putin, and Bibi Netanyahu
• 39:19–44:54: Dissecting the Saudi nuclear deal’s dysfunction
• 50:49–54:20: Epstein/Tate scandals as symbols of elite impunity
• 58:51–61:27: Future of Trump’s legacy—Smithsonian exhibits, national reckoning
• 61:27–62:43: Democracy’s resilience; outro remarks

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Tone and Style

• Sharp, sardonic, and insider-y: The banter is witty, self-aware, and often darkly humorous, typical of The Daily Beast’s in-house style.
• The hosts balance seriousness with irreverence, blending trenchant political critique with pithy asides and pop-culture references.
• Frequent allusions to classical literature, modern meme culture, and New York inside jokes.

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Concluding Themes

• Trump, Putin, and Netanyahu embody an exhausted era of power-obsessed, unaccountable “strongmen” facing inexorable decline, both in politics and history’s eyes.
• Corruption is not an accident but a system, and a reckoning—slow, but inevitable—is coming.
• Democracy, though battered, persists, and the value of truth-telling, independent media, and historical accountability remains paramount.

Final take: This episode crystallizes the sense that we are watching a generational—and perhaps epochal—passing of the torch, with all the chaos, farce, and danger that entails.

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(End of Summary)

Transcript

[David Rothkopf]

Trump, probably, on some level, despite the fact that he's a narcissist and a psychopath and all these other things, at some level, has the worst case of imposter syndrome in history.

[Joseph]

Imposter syndrome president.

[David Rothkopf]

Yeah. And he knows he doesn't belong there. This guy, he's got imposter syndrome. And I also think he hears the Grim Reaper. I mean, he's hearing the footsteps of the Grim Reaper in the background, and he wants to memorialize himself everywhere he looks.

[Joseph]

David Rothkopf in person. Is it a mirage?

[David Rothkopf]

No, it's amazing.

[Joseph]

I think it might be a mirage.

[David Rothkopf]

Do you think I look better in person?

[Joseph]

It's true. You are a real person. Yeah. You look magnificent, David, as does your T shirt be Beast. So good.

[David Rothkopf]

I have to make these myself. You guys need more merch.

[Joseph]

I know. We do need more merch. You're right.

[David Rothkopf]

I mean, think of Everett Brighton. If you're watching this podcast, what merch would people like?

[Joseph]

They'd like hats, T shirts, bags.

[David Rothkopf]

T shirts with your tattoos.

[Joseph]

Yeah, we could do tattoos. No, not stick on. Permanent. Permanent. A bit like Graham Platner's tattoo joke. Obviously a joke.

[David Rothkopf]

Which one? You mean that assessed?

[Joseph]

Well, who knows? I don't want to. I never want to see Graham Platners. I feel like I was a bit taken in by Grandpa.

[David Rothkopf]

You. Were you a little suckered by him?

[Joseph]

A little sad about that? Partly because when I talked to him, he was doing IVF in Norway, and I thought that was a kind of felt like a modern man thing to do. But turns out he's not a very modern man.

[David Rothkopf]

You mean all the sex abuse?

[Joseph]

I mean the allegations of rape.

[David Rothkopf]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joseph]

Anyway, he's gone. He's gone.

[David Rothkopf]

We're against that.

[Joseph]

Democrats have got other issues now. Before we get into it, a reminder. We are independent media, so we need your support. Please subscribe to the Daily Beast. We have all sorts of tips, tiers of membership. You can be a bebeast member, you can be a friend of the Beast, but please subscribe. And of course, we now have a new phone line where you can leave us messages, which we are going to start playing. Our number is 9292-7435-7792-9274-3577. So you can leave your messages for us there. Leave special messages for David Rothkopf, for Michael Wolff, for me, for Kurt Anderson, for anybody you like, any of our regular guests, Jen Welch. And we will look forward to playing some of them on the Daily Beast podcast today. We're going to talk about Trump melting down. We're going to talk about Putin melting down. We're going to talk about possibly Netanyahu melting down here tomorrow. Well, not literally here, but in D.C. tomorrow. We're going to talk about the Pentagon fudging the numbers of American casualties, which is a much more serious story than American. I feel like we should all be talking about this all the time, and we're not. It's way down in the headlines.

[David Rothkopf]

It's insane.

[Joseph]

It's a terrible, terrible fudge going on by the Pentagon. So that's just for starters. David, where do we begin? Where do we begin? White House correspondence disaster that Trump has spent all weekend backstroking away from.

[David Rothkopf]

Yeah, I mean, it was a disaster on every level. Right. Let's start with the people who actually hosted it. The like, why did they do that? Should we have done this over again?

[Joseph]

Why did they celebrate the First Amendment? We know that.

[David Rothkopf]

Celebrate the First Amendment with Donald Trump. He's the biggest enemy of the First Amendment there ever was.

[Joseph]

Well, is he or doesn't he just provoke the media? Because all they do is cover him. All we do is cover him. And he loves that. He lives in the attention bubble.

[David Rothkopf]

There's a dichotomy there. But he also has his guy at the FCC intimidating people, trying to shut things down. He's suing people. He's cutting all these deals. He's got the Ellisons buying cbs, trying to buy cnn. I mean, he's trying to do a lot of stuff, you know, at the Defense Department. You can't actually get into the Defense Department anymore. If you're a good reporter, they don't let you into White House briefings anymore.

[Joseph]

And yet the White House is leaking. Regime change is packed full of all sorts of juicy gossip. We talk about this government more than ever.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, we, I mean, look, we do because there has never been a circus like the circus that we're watching. Right. And you know, every day there's some insane story and that. Like look at the weekend, you know, Trump goes to the White House Correspondent Center. He's not funny.

[Joseph]

He's definitely not funny.

[David Rothkopf]

The Mentalist, not so funny.

[Joseph]

I didn't even watch the Mentalist.

[David Rothkopf]

No, no. Yeah, no, it was good. He did a little shtick with Todd.

[Joseph]

Did it? Well, what was that?

[David Rothkopf]

How much money do you have in your wallet, Todd? I'm going to guess. How could I possibly know? $85, that was the entertainment. But then Trump comes on, he gives an hour long speech. None of it is funny. He's insulting people. He's just being mean. And I think he goes home and he goes, everything I'm doing is failing. The war is failing. I used to get laughs. People used to think I was funny. They used to think I was attractive.

[Joseph]

Do you think the writer of the speech has been fired yet? Cause he kept saying when he delivered his jokes and they bombed, and the room was kind of just staring at him like, this is embarrassing. And then he would go, who wrote this line? Who wrote this line? I was like, whoever wrote the line, you're gonna be fired?

[David Rothkopf]

I don't know, but they may be fired. But then. So then I think he immediately changed gears. It was like, well, how do I change the subject? Well, how do I distract people from this? And so on Sunday, what do you get? What was it? 47.

[Joseph]

Oh, well, let's go through them, shall we? I thought. I was hoping that we would get to this. This is Trump's Truth Social. He did. Well, he did 643 posts, I think, for most of the months. And then here we go. He did 43 posts yesterday. This is the President of the United States, and he's trying to charge for some of them. Right. That he says will be market moving information.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, yeah, no, he's charging. Truth Social is a huge, gigantic failure. Right?

[Joseph]

Yeah.

[David Rothkopf]

But now he's like, oh, if you pay me $100,000 and I do something that's going to move the market, I'll tell you first. So you can invest and be an insider trader, just like everybody in the White House.

[Joseph]

Okay, so what have we got? What is this? This is Trump lending hand to George Washington.

[David Rothkopf]

Saving George Washington.

[Joseph]

Saving George Washington from what?

[David Rothkopf]

Rushmore, apparently. And he's on a cliff and he's reaching out and pulling up George Washington, which I think means saving America, but also showing that Trump is a powerful, virile man with some mountaineering skills.

[Joseph]

And is this a reference to the Save America Act?

[David Rothkopf]

It could well be. I think he thinks about that a lot because he has been tweeting about it a lot, but it's pretty ridiculous.

[Joseph]

It's also a time travel epic, and it's got the same logo as Time Magazine. Time Magazine?

[David Rothkopf]

Yeah. Magazine. I don't remember a magazine.

[Joseph]

Right.

[David Rothkopf]

I'm a generation after that.

[Joseph]

Oh, you are, right. You're kind of millennial.

[David Rothkopf]

I'm very Z. I'm a. Oh, you're Zoomer. I'm a Zoomer.

[Joseph]

You're a Zoomer.

[David Rothkopf]

But. But it's made to look like a movie poster. I Think that's the whole idea, is that this is some time travel epic where Trump goes back in time and saves George Washington from possibly from creating the Constitution. All these rules he hates.

[Joseph]

Of course. Of course. All right, what about this? Now, this is Trump as a doctor. We know that Trump fantasizes about wearing a white coat and a stethoscope and presenting as a doctor, but this time,

[David Rothkopf]

he doesn't have the. The halo that he often has when he's a doctor.

[Joseph]

Correct.

[David Rothkopf]

In these things. But he is saying to everybody, look, Republicans need a spine. Now, the reality is the entire Republican Party has had its spine surgically removed so that they can sort of, you know, goop around on the floor at the feet of Trump. But what he wants here is for them to stand up and pass the Save America Act. And also I think he wants them to get rid of the filibuster, according to one of his true social tweets this morning. And he thinks this will solve all of their problems because he's terrified. I mean, this, you know, this is really the core thing. Donald Trump is terrified of what's going to happen in 99 days.

[Joseph]

In 99 days.

[David Rothkopf]

99 days. Because not only could he lose, not only could there be investigations, impeachment hearings, his agenda will never go forward again. Not only could all those things happen, but all of a sudden, he will be indisputably a lame duck. He'll be on his way out. He will be in the departure lounge. And for him, at 80, the departure lounge doesn't go to your next great job. The departure lounge goes to a nice, toasty, warm room somewhere down in the nether regions, next to Mitch McConnell's room and next to Lindsey Graham's room with flames licking in. And, you know, do you think he.

[Joseph]

Do you think there will be major investigations into Donald Trump? I mean, the Democrats need three House seats and they need four Senate seats. Unclear if they get the Senate, but if they get the House, do they start investigations?

[David Rothkopf]

Inevitably. Now, there's some Democrats who are like, oh, don't do that. It's a distraction. And it's like, a distraction from what? This is the most corrupt government ever. People hate the corruption. But I think what a lot of these Democrats don't realize is that the knee bone is connected to the shin bone. That the corruption is connected to oligarchs controlling everything is connected to the fact that the system is rigged is connected to the fact that the government serves rich people and not poor people is connected to the fact that you don't have healthcare, or he's shutting down your hospital or, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So all these pieces get together. Smart politicians today get it. You know, John Ossoff, running for Senate in Georgia, has. Has coined this phrase or has been one of the people to popularize the idea of the Epstein class. And it's perfect because it says Epstein, corruption, oligarchs. The system is rigged against you all the. And he gets this moment, which is, first of all, it's what people feel. But secondly, it's kind of a cousin of what Trump did when he ran, which was, the system doesn't work. You need somebody from outside the system. I'll shake things up. He's had two terms, he has screwed everything up, and now people wanna shake him up. Turn about his fair play.

[Joseph]

So do you think he was really melting down? I mean, let's keep going through the. I mean, what about this? Where is John Thune? So, interestingly, he's really going after the Republic partly because he wants to get his SAVE act through, which clearly isn't going to get passed. And now he's going on to John Thune, leader of the Senate.

[David Rothkopf]

Yeah, well, he thinks that these tactics work. And I think he's missing a point. You know, last week there were these Arizona primaries, and some of his candidates who were complete loons from outer space won their nominations. Right. And he is. Then the next day is like, see, Trump is in charge. And it's like, dude, this is an Arizona primary. You know, a fraction of the people vote. They're all people who believe in, you know, space aliens and that people didn't land on the moon and all this other kind of nutty stuff. And they're responsive to him. But what Thune knows is that we're 99 days away from the general election.

[Joseph]

Right?

[David Rothkopf]

And in the general election, you don't just have Republican crazies voting. And so Thune, who. I mean, look, he's had his spine surgically removed, too. He's no great character. But Thune is trying to say, well, how do I keep my majority in the Senate? And that's what he cares about. And he's being quite pragmatic. Trump doesn't care about that stuff. Trump cares about. How do I protect Trump?

[Joseph]

So what does this one mean? Where is John Thune? Recess appointments. What does this refer to? What are recess appointments?

[David Rothkopf]

Well, recess appointments are appointments that you make when you can't get your people confirmed. And so the president has the authority to make a Recess appointment. I don't really get this, because Trump has been appointing people left and right. If Todd Blanche doesn't get appointed this week or doesn't get confirmed this week or he doesn't get confirmed, Trump will just say, okay, I'm gonna leave him on as a recess appointment or I'm gonna. And he'll do that. And he's got a lot of people in there. Trump's signature move has been appoint acting heads of different departments.

[Joseph]

Right, so we've got act had Bill Pulte in Intelligence at the moment.

[David Rothkopf]

Yes, yes.

[Joseph]

Right. So we're waiting also for Jay Clayton, who in theory should be replacing.

[David Rothkopf]

He will probably. But, you know, Jay Clayton is one of these guys who's like, an establishment New York lawyer. And so they're Democrats who are like, oh, yes, I know Jay Clayton. Jay Clayton's a good man. Jay Clayton's not a good man. How could he be a good man? When Jon Ossoff said, Who won the 2020 election? He goes, I'm not playing these games. Yeah, you're like, dude, answer the question. Like, who won the election? No, no, I'm not gonna.

[Joseph]

Well, and another New York prosecutor, Democrat Todd Blanche.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, yeah, because these people come out of the Southern District and people think, therefore, they have some credibility. Because that's like, you know, it's kind of the Rolls Royce of the doj. They're independent, they're high quality, they're dealing with these big cases. But then these guys end up being complete, total sellouts, and they just want to get ahead, and they'll do whatever Trump says. And, you know, Clayton, this should be disqualified. I mean, let's go back a step. The Director of National Intelligence job actually has a requirement that you have to know something about intelligence. Clayton doesn't know anything about intelligence. He has no background in intelligence. He's better than Pulte, whose background is at Bed, Bath and Beyond or something like that. But Clayton doesn't have the right background for the job. And then when he goes in front of the Senate and says, no, I'm not answering. I'm not going to tell you who won the election, because I am totally at the beck and call of the President, and I'm another blind loyalist. And that's not who you want running your intelligence community, because you want the intelligence community to come and say, Mr. President, if you attack Iran, they will take over the Persian Gulf and they will not respond to your bombing, and they will start attacking elsewhere. And the President to say, oh, well, these are independent perspectives. Perhaps I should listen to these now. Again, the bridge too far, because Trump doesn't listen to anybody, but that's what you would like. And he's already saying, I'm not going to be credible. I'm going to get you the intel you want, which is what Bolte does.

[Joseph]

Right.

[David Rothkopf]

Want some intel that says the elections are faked and foreigners were involved. I'll get it to you. I'll just, you know, I'll just black out all these sections of the page that have the actual facts on them and we can wave those in front of the audience.

[Joseph]

All right, so we've been through Truth Social, so you don't have to. Let's keep going, because it is madness. What was going on there yesterday. Madness. What did you think of this one?

[David Rothkopf]

This was a good. This is really classic Trump. Trump likes walls.

[Joseph]

Yeah.

[David Rothkopf]

He doesn't like Canada.

[Joseph]

Yep.

[David Rothkopf]

And he thinks Canada is putting, you know, smoke into the country because of all the forest fires that come from them, not sweeping the floors of the forest or whatever. So this is a thing showing a big air filter on the Canadian border,

[Joseph]

which I wish we could put one up because actually, the smoke from the fires was quite bad in New York over the last couple of weeks.

[David Rothkopf]

No, it's, it's, it's been a little bit of a thing. But of course, the reason for the fires is climate change, which Trump doesn't believe in.

[Joseph]

Right.

[David Rothkopf]

And so we're not actually getting to the core issue. And, you know. Yeah. I mean, this is kind of silly. He hates Canada, though, and it's. It's kind of weird. Who hates Canadians?

[Joseph]

Well, Trump does, because he hates people who are fairly normal, effective, get on with things and don't make a fight when Canada.

[David Rothkopf]

Right. And, you know, every. We, you know, for years, Americans.

[Joseph]

I'm sure he hates Mark Carney, right?

[David Rothkopf]

Oh, yeah. And he probably doesn't like Justin Trudeau, you know, in retrospect, who's going out with Katy Perry. That probably bugs him a lot, too.

[Joseph]

Well, and Katy Perry complaining that Trump was using her song without any attribution or wasn't supposed to be using it at all. Stole her song. Stole her song.

[David Rothkopf]

It's unbelievable, you know, particularly after that nice ride she had and Jeff Bezos rocket, you know.

[Joseph]

Yes, indeed.

[David Rothkopf]

You know, so she was. She was, you know, in one camp. She's. She switched over. But, you know, Canada, you know, America used to think of as kind of little brother and so forth. Canada works. They have a functioning healthcare system. They have a functioning government. They're Independent. They do, you know, they, they do not have the lunacy that's going on here. And they have opposed things like Greenland going to the United States and so forth. And so he, it bugs him. It bugs him. He thinks he should be able to bully everybody.

[Joseph]

Well, and I think he thinks he should be able to take over Canada, doesn't he? Because it's right there for the pickings.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, no, one. He thinks it should be a 51st state sometimes. He doesn't think this through, though. You know, if he, if Canada, if we took over Canada, you think they're voting Republican?

[Joseph]

Well, maybe we should take over them. Maybe we should.

[David Rothkopf]

All right. Same with Venezuela, by the way. They're not, you know, going to vote for Trump.

[Joseph]

Okay, let's have a look at this. Other presidents, Trump, Vietnam War, Korean War, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Venezuela. He has a point here.

[David Rothkopf]

Does he? Does he really have a point? Okay, first of all, his Iran, military conflict, it's not a war because he doesn't want to think about it as a war. Secondly is his point that we haven't hit 50,000 dead. Thirdly, if you look down at this four months, 18 dead, what has happened over the weekend, what should be the biggest scandal in America right now, right, The Defense Department has been lying about the casualties from this conflict with Iran, right? And they remove four people from that list of, of, of 18 dead for a while because they said, well, it was during the ceasefire, so it doesn't really count as people, you know, during the war.

[Joseph]

Right. And then aren't they calling it overseas

[David Rothkopf]

operations, some, some, some kind of, you know, bookkeeping bullshit? But more importantly, we've now discovered that There have been 600 casualties, which they've minimized. Now, as it happens, if you take the first couple of years of the Afghan war, they did not reach that level casualties that we've reached in four months in this war. So actually, if you do the math just in terms of the casualty count, I think it was four years before they hit the number of casualties that we've hit in four months in this war. So it's a lot like all of these other things. It's a misleading lie and it's absurd because Trump said this is going to be over overnight. It's not really a war. We're not going to have any cost. It also neglects the fact that Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan did not blow up the global economy, did not push up prices for everybody else, did not create the biggest energy crisis the world has ever seen. And so, you know, wars have different kinds of costs, and this one has had gigantic costs that don't show up in this tabulation here.

[Joseph]

Okay. It's also five months since he went in 28th of February.

[David Rothkopf]

I think it's five months tomorrow.

[Joseph]

Right? Five months tomorrow. Okay. First amendment. That's him at the White House. Correspondent putting on his 20, 28 hat.

[David Rothkopf]

It's his. Great joke that he's going to run again.

[Joseph]

Great joke, Great joke.

[David Rothkopf]

He's not going to make it to the end of this term if Trump remains in charge. We should have a little bit of a bet. One of those croissants you give Michael Wolf you could like. I'll bet you one of those.

[Joseph]

No, we should bet on Kalshee. Oh, he said you can't bet on. You can't bet on people's lives. In Kals, though you may have seen Kurt Anderson yesterday, the novelist, talking about imagining Trump's death, which he started writing

[David Rothkopf]

before Trump was reelected.

[Joseph]

Correct.

[David Rothkopf]

And Trump dies in that book. And this is gonna disappoint a lot of your listeners at age 89.

[Joseph]

Yeah. So another nine years ago, people.

[David Rothkopf]

And he's still in office, by the way, in 2035. He's still in office in that book. But. But the point is, I don't. He's not going to make. He's not going to make it to the end of this term if there are not days or weeks or months with JD Vance as the acting president, I would be.

[Joseph]

So you think. So you think he won't live out his term?

[David Rothkopf]

Well, he may live it out, but, you know, we could have a little bit of Mitch action. He disappears. We don't see him for a while. Who knows what's going on now, how many days?

[Joseph]

So it's 99 days to the midterms, and I think it's. We now have a ticker on the Daily Beast, counting the days since anyone last saw Mitch McConnell speaking.

[David Rothkopf]

43, I think. I think I saw your ticker this morning. I think it's great.

[Joseph]

Yeah, it goes by the second, so it's worth checking in on.

[David Rothkopf]

No, you say you'd have a countdown clock to the election.

[Joseph]

Yes. For Mitch to come out.

[David Rothkopf]

For Mitch to come out. Yeah.

[Joseph]

Yeah. All right, let's keep going.

[David Rothkopf]

Notice, by the way, I think one of the interesting things here is, by the way, Trump's got all these things. Does he mention Mitch Eber?

[Joseph]

He doesn't mention him at all. Right. I think he very, very briefly mentioned him and said he never liked the guy. So what about this picture. So what is he doing by making pictures of himself with previous presidents? He obviously doesn't feel worthy of being in their company. So he's sort of over projecting. Was my take on it. What's yours?

[David Rothkopf]

No, I think, Dr. Coles, you're exactly right. I think it is projection. I think, you know, he feels extremely insecure. I mean, Trump probably on some level, despite the fact that he's a narcissist and a psychopath and all these other things, at some level has the worst case of imposter syndrome in history. He knows he doesn't belong.

[Joseph]

Imposter syndrome president.

[David Rothkopf]

Yeah. And he knows he doesn't belong there. And so he's like, well, look, I have the same job George Washington had. I have the same job John F. Kennedy had. I could be surrounded by all of these people. Of course, you know, any of them, any of them would have dragged him out of the office kicking and screaming. Right. None of them would have tolerated somebody like this trying to seize the office. And there's a particular irony here because, of course, what was the memorial that the Congress came up with for John F. Kennedy? The Kennedy Center. And now we're learning there are more stories coming out even today, how he's gutted it, hollowed it out, and then courts trying to, you know, say, no, you can't do that. You got to turn it back on. But it is an empty disaster. There's still tarps over the front of it because Trump can't bear to see the front of it without his name on it now. And there was a talk this weekend, by the way, there's some move afoot where he wants to rename Penn Station in New York.

[Joseph]

Oh, yes, yes. Well, I think. Wasn't that part of the deal to release funding for the.

[David Rothkopf]

It was, but now there's some people pushing for it and trying to make it law, you know, because Amtrak or something. I don't know, it's some crazy thing, but, you know, this guy is. He's got imposter syndrome. And I also think he hears the Grim Reaper. You know, I mean, he's hearing the footsteps of the Grim Reaper in the background, and he wants to memorialize himself everywhere he looks. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Joseph]

$45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms. So he is now pursued by a war that he started that he can't seem to get out of another person. I think hearing the Grim Reaper also started a war he can't get out of. Vladimir Putin. We had an excellent report by Alison Quinn, who spent a lot of time in Russia and Ukraine over the weekend talking about how Putin has basically been hiding in a bunker for the last year or so. The war is getting worse. Russian casualties are terrible. It's sort of having a ripple effect. In Russia, he's been out and about and people don't like him and they don't like what he sees and he keeps being ambushed by people.

[David Rothkopf]

I think these guys are sort of children of the Cold War, right? I mean, Putin was a KGB officer stationed in East Germany during the Cold War. He was actually fighting it. Trump was just marrying Eastern Europeans. But the Cold War shaped our views on everything. And one of the views is the world is constantly at the edge of conflict. Military strength is everything. Another view which I think is wrong. And by the way, I wrote something about this a couple weeks ago in my substack because I think it's a slightly bigger deal than just casual conversation, but I call it superpower mythology that they were all brought up with the idea that the only way that you could be in control and achieve something is to be a superpower, you have to have nuclear weapons and so forth. Well, what's the track record of the superpowers over the course of the past 50 or 60 years? The United States has lost every single war we've entered or we haven't achieved our goals. Right. Russia went into Afghanistan, lost, went into Ukraine, lost. We've all learned that having a lot of nuclear weapons which you can't use is not that big a deal, is not that big an advantage. And even having a giant army when you don't have the political will to stay or to conquer a people is not that big a deal. If the people in the country say, we'll wait you out, we will stay as long, you know, the Taliban in Afghanistan or the people in Ukraine or the people in Iran, they're like, we're going to be here no matter what. Right? And so being a superpower isn't what it's cracked up to be. They haven't learned a thing about this. They are still sort of acting out sort of old memes of being in charge.

[Joseph]

It's like they're a little bit like teenage boys in that regard, aren't they? They sort of think that swagger and physical power will defeat a much more determined enemy who they underestimate.

[David Rothkopf]

Right. And like teenage boys, you know, I've always thought that testosterone was the world's most powerful brain solver, you know, because it destroy. It destroys brain cells. And like a teenage boy, they're just being stupid and they're not paying attention. Because I'll tell you, in the course of the past 60 years and, and longer than that, by the way, but let's just take the past 60 years. Who hasn't fought a war?

[Joseph]

I know what you're going to say, okay?

[David Rothkopf]

The Chinese have not fought a war. They have not spent $1 on this. What China has done, particularly since 1979 and Deng Xiaoping, particularly in the course of the past 20 or 30 years, is they've invested and invested in schools, in AI, in trains, in airports, in infrastructure. And so are they a perfect country? No, they're not. But we're spending a trillion dollars a year on military spending that is not gaining us anything. You know, the, the, the 37 or $38 billion that the defense Department says is the cost of this Iran war. Complete lie. It's cost 120, 150 billion.

[Joseph]

Well, also, we seem to be depleting our stocks of munitions.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, that's, that's a, that, that's another issue. But that 38 billion would have paid for all the health care that was cut out of the big, beautiful bill, would have ensured that everybody kept, you know, the supplementals that they needed to keep getting their health care. So what they don't accept is a point that, sorry to be boring, historian Dwight Eisenhower made in January of 1961 when he made his farewell address, and he talked about the military industrial complex, and he said, every time you build a bomber, you're not building a school or a hospital. And they don't get it. And so they're hollowing out the country. Now, this issue that you bring up of armaments and how we've depleted our stocks is gigantically important. And there was this strange exchange over the weekend with Mike Walsh, who's our UN Ambassador, saying, anybody who says we're depleting our stocks should immediately be prosecuted for leaking information, which is kind of interesting considering Mike Waltz is the guy who sent attack information to Jeff Goldberg of the Atlantic. Right, right.

[Joseph]

On his signal.

[David Rothkopf]

On his signal account with.

[Joseph]

Right. With also JD Vance on there and Pete Hegset.

[David Rothkopf]

Right. But, but, you know, the other thing about it is he then goes on two sentences later to say, yeah, we're doing it and we need to fix it. And anybody who opposes fixing it is un American. So anybody who says that we're doing it is leaking. But two seconds later, we are depleting. But if there were a war someplace else, we wouldn't have the stockpiles of munitions. We need to fight it. The Chinese know that if they are looking at Taiwan with greedy eyes, Putin knows it. He knows that we don't have the ability to help Ukraine, which we're supposed to help now. Because apparently Trump's, you know, work wife, Laura Loomer thinks.

[Joseph]

Well, Laura Loomer's done a documentary on Ukraine.

[David Rothkopf]

She's interviewing.

[Joseph]

She's now pro Ukraine, Vladimir Zelensky. She's now said, it's a just war. And so Donald Trump appears to have changed his mind.

[David Rothkopf]

Shadow Secretary of Defense Laura Loomer is trying to change our policy, but guess what? We don't have the munitions to send to them because we're expending them all on this insane war where we lose ground every single day.

[Joseph]

But Zelensky is gaining ground on Putin. Correct?

[David Rothkopf]

Right. But part of the reason Zelensky is gaining ground is the Ukrainians said, well, we can't rely on these people, so we're going to build the world's best drone industry. And here is Ukraine not thought of as a cutting edge country, and they are at the cutting edge of modern warfare with drones that fly through the air, drones that go through the sea, blowing up the Russian fleet in the Black Sea with, with, you know, seagoing drones and so forth.

[Joseph]

And, well, I'm blowing up their equivalent of Amazon warehouses and gas stations and Moscow.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, and that goes to your point about Putin, which is they're tweaking him. They know that the one thing the Russian people have been sort of isolated from are the consequences of this war. And they are now reaching a thousand miles into Russia. Putin canceled a parade, Right. The Navy Day parade. He canceled it. Why? Because he's afraid that there's going to be a Ukrainian drone attack. People are waiting in gas lines because every major refining facility in Russia has been attacked by these drones. So all of a sudden, Putin is being squeezed politically. And interestingly, that's the exact same game the Iranians are playing with Trump because they know that if they block the Strait of Hormuz, the price of oil goes up, the price of gasoline goes up, the price of food goes up. That Trump's got an election in 99 days. They know that the longer this goes on, the greater their leverage is and the they know that they're not leaving. So these are. They're kind of mirror image wars that are bringing down these fossil cold warriors who don't have the intellectual dexterity to change their positions and adapt to new circumstances. And on top of that, if you're thinking maybe Trump's over and maybe Putin's over, I can add to the trifecta, because tomorrow, Bibi Netanyahu is coming to the United States a war criminal, a man who's got not a strategic sense in his life. All he knows is that he attacks Palestinians, he attacks Lebanese, he attacks the Iranians. This has been his whole thing, is that he should be in power because he's a wartime president, because his brain is back in an Israel that was fighting these just wars because it was being threatened by all of its neighbors. But Israel's the bully in the neighborhood now.

[Joseph]

And also facing an election in October.

[David Rothkopf]

Right. And it'll be very interesting because I don't know that if he loses and he could still win because he's a very deft politician. And in their parliamentary system, the question is whether he can keep his coalition together and his party is still strong even if he is not. But if there is an election and it shifts, it doesn't look like any of his opponents will actually change the behavior of Israel that much. And this could drive further the wedge between the United States and Israel. And so, you know, I think US Israel policy is going to change dramatically in no matter what happens because of this. But, you know, there's also the possibility that Netanyahu loses and he's all of a sudden, what's going to happen? He's going to face prosecution for the bribery charges and other things that are against him. That's what Trump is looking down the pipe at. You know, Lord knows Putin could be if he lost power. I think with Putin, the question is just how, you know, how long does

[Joseph]

he stay alive and what is the system to get rid of Putin in Russia?

[David Rothkopf]

I mean, there is no system because there are no real elections in that country. The last time there was a major change, it was a coup that brought about the major change. And that could happen. But I think just as possible is Putin's an old guy and he could just conk out, just like Trump could conk out. The good news is someday soon there will be no Trump, no Putin, no Netanyahu. The bad news is it's not today. So we have to wait until it happens.

[Joseph]

And according to Kurt Andersen, it's not until 2035.

[David Rothkopf]

Yeah, he may have thought he was being very optimistic. That's a very bleak picture.

[Joseph]

So we also have the Saudi nuclear deal. That.

[David Rothkopf]

Do we?

[Joseph]

Well, do we? Yeah. No, I thought that you might have some information on this, because I know you talk to a lot of people involved in this area. I mean, Trump got them to sign it last week, and then after they'd signed it, he said, whoa, wait a minute. It's only valid if you sign the Abraham Accords re establishing relations with Israel. So what's happening?

[David Rothkopf]

Well, first of all, Trump's energy secretary put out this thing, Chris Wright, and said, go ahead, sign this. And the Saudis were like, okay, because Biden was negotiating a nuclear deal like this with the Saudis on October 6, before the October 7 attacks that occurred. Right. Right up until the very last minute. And the key, the whole thing on which it turned was that they would normalize relations with Israel. And if they normalized relations with Israel, then the US could do the kind of nuclear deal with the Saudis that we have, by the way, with the Emiratis, which is, you know, that they can. We'll help them build some plants. And the Emirati deal, I think, doesn't allow enrichment. And the Saudi deal, it was unclear what that was, but. But again, there are no experts around the president, and the people who are doing these top jobs don't know what they're talking about. So the president said, well, you know, this war is going on, and we've got to keep all these guys on side, so let's give them something. And surely Jared, who's like, got all these deals with the Saudis, is saying, hey, let's do something. And maybe Don Jr. And Eric, who all of a sudden are in the nuclear enrichment business, said, hey, let's do something. And, oh, by the way, Truth Social, remember Truth Social, the media company? Remember when a few months ago they said, all of a sudden we're going into the nuclear business.

[Joseph]

And everybody was like, what are you talking about?

[David Rothkopf]

What are you doing? And apparently Westinghouse, which is the big US Company that does these things, does a deal with another company, with another company which is controlled by Lutnik's kids, Howard. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick's kids. So There are a bunch of people around Trump saying, you know what's a good idea, boss? Let's do a nuclear deal with the Saudis. And so Trump undoubtedly said to Wright, hey, go do a deal. And so he goes, writes a deal out, has no conditions in it.

[Joseph]

So wait a minute, let's just remind people. So the deal is for. For American companies, largely Westinghouse, to go into Saudi Arabia and help them build nuclear power stations.

[David Rothkopf]

Right. And unclear whether they could then develop an enrichment capacity. And remember, the Saudis, Mohammed bin Salman particularly, have said, if Iran gets a nuke, we're getting a nuke.

[Joseph]

Right.

[David Rothkopf]

So it's a strange time to choose, well, to do such a deal. Right, right. Where you're negotiating with the Iranians and saying, oh, by the way, we're going to help the Saudis with nukes. Do you think that's a disincentive well for the Iranians?

[Joseph]

Well, wait a minute. We're bombing Iran to get rid of their nuclear abilities. Right.

[David Rothkopf]

Theoretically. Saying theoretically. Except we know we're not. The intelligence.

[Joseph]

They were obliterated.

[David Rothkopf]

Yes, obliterated. You're so right. They said we were obliterated. Obliterated. And then we bombed them again and we said. And then Trump said, it's all dust and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Except they still have the centrifuges that they need. They have the ability to get more centrifuges. The enriched uranium is still there. The scientists who know how to produce this stuff are still there. And according to reports over the weekend, the new ayatollah who's in charge, the son of the former one, the gay

[Joseph]

one, is Donald Trump, referred to him on Friday.

[David Rothkopf]

I'm not referring to him that way because I don't know, but that he apparently is more inclined to have a nuclear weapon. Well, would you think if the Saudis are doing a nuclear deal with the US they will be more inclined or less inclined? It doesn't strike me as very strategic to do it now. But the Saudis are getting pissed off that oil is being cut off, not just through the Persian Gulf, but through the Red Sea. Because now the Houthis, on behalf of the Iranians are getting. And so what are the Saudis doing?

[Joseph]

So is anybody going to be able to get any oil at all?

[David Rothkopf]

Yes, they are, because

[Joseph]

how do they get the oil? They've got pipelines.

[David Rothkopf]

Right, right. I mean, first of all, some oil can get in and out of the Persian Gulf. Saudis have pipelines that go across the Arabian Peninsula and, And dump out into the Red Sea so that they can go and ship it out that way. Now, the Houthis have attacked a little bit, so that's slowing that down. The Emiratis are building a pipeline that allows them to go into the Gulf of Oman. So everybody's trying to find a workaround. The question is, how quick is that going to happen? What is the cost to these economies? And the Saudis are like, well, wait, the Houthis are doing this here. This is, you know, we're, we are not happy with how this is going. And so all of a sudden, at that point, Trump says, well, let's do this nuclear deal again. And then he does the nuclear deal, and all of a sudden there are all these specialists who used to do the nuclear deals, who wrote a bunch of articles. And what do the specialists say? What about the normalization with Israel? What about recognizing Israel? What about signing on to the Abraham Accords? That was the whole reason we were doing it the last time. And all of a sudden, Trump goes, oh, yeah, and you have to do that.

[Joseph]

But he says that after, after they've already signed. So is this a deal that's actually real or not?

[David Rothkopf]

We don't know.

[Joseph]

We do not know.

[David Rothkopf]

We do not know. And Trump's, you know, emissaries out there, you know, including Mike Waltz, the UN Ambassador over the weekend, have said, well, what the president says, that's the deal, and they're going to have to live with that. That's what they have to do to implement the deal. Well, the Saudis are pissed off that they've had this bait and switch on a deal. And it's made more complicated by the fact that the Israelis are doing all sorts of horrible stuff in the west bank, still fighting a war in Lebanon and not letting humanitarian aid into Gaza. They can't normalize with Israel right now unless Israel changes their behavior. So it's a sort of political impossibility in the context of Saudi.

[Joseph]

So it's utterly meaningless at this point.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, I mean, it means something. It means Trump's trying to cut a deal that's going to help his sons and other people's sons do more corrupt business with the Saudis. And typically, the way Trump will do a deal like this is the Saudis will go, well, we're not going to sign on to that. And then Trump will say, well, what if we signed an MOU that said we're going to begin a process, okay, so you could. And then they come up with some little way to fudge that. And then they Say, okay, so we'll have a nuclear deal, but, you know, you got to work on doing the thing with the Israelis. And the Saudis will say, well, we're not signing something until the Israelis change their behavior. And Trump says, well, we're talking to the Israelis about changing their behavior. And, you know, you end up with some kind of there where they're not committed to something. Now, the, the interest, American companies still

[Joseph]

go in and start building.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, and also, and, and this is an important part, when you're dealing with the Trump administration, the stock prices of those companies go up.

[Joseph]

Right?

[David Rothkopf]

Because people start saying, oh, yeah, they're going to profit, so we're going to go and track the stock prices up. Now, another component of this is are they going to enrich? You know, now most people, listen, they don't really care about this, but if the Saudis gain the ability to enrich, which Trump has been on both sides of this, well, we could talk to them about it. No, they're not going to. That's going to freak out the Iranians. I would also add the deal that I think has existed for many years with the United Arab Emirates doesn't allow enrichment, but does say that our deal will be the same as any other deal. So if the Saudis get the ability, then it extends elsewhere there. So there are a lot of components here. And the problem is, and this really gets the problem, the whole country is there's no expert advisory process, there's no NSC, there's no people saying, Mr. President, do this, do that. And the President doesn't listen when they do say it. So he's just this impulse engine who goes, hey, we should have a deal with the Saudis. Go get a deal with the Saudis. Hey, let me send a true social, hey, let me do this other thing. Oh, I'm going to go and invite the sports team over here and, you know, let's, let's give me my plane. I got to go fly my new plane everywhere. And they're like, well, Mr. President, you know, the, the security provisions for the plane are not in place. He's, I don't care, I'm going to do it. And then he has to change it. And so, you know, deal after deal that we start including this Iran deal. Remember the MoU?

[Joseph]

Yep.

[David Rothkopf]

Remember, there was a ceasefire, of course.

[Joseph]

Yep.

[David Rothkopf]

All the elements of the ceasefire were bad. So all of a sudden it's out the window because, you know, but Trump was just trying to bullshit his way out of this thing. And I think that's you know, for Trump, this is the big thing. Throughout his whole entire life, since he was a kid, whenever he, like, you know, cracked up the family car or whatever, he's always been able to bullshit his way out of everything. And, you know, he does this, and he does a bankruptcy, and then he says, but look over here. Trump Stakes, Trump University. Oh, I'm married to this glamorous woman. I'm at Studio 54. I'm gonna do this. Oh, I'm gonna do casinos. Nobody's ever lost money in casinos. And he's always like, he just stays one pile of bullshit ahead of whatever the current problem is, right? He can't do it anymore.

[Joseph]

Well, then he keeps saying, he's won. It's won. We've obliterated them. We've ended their military facility facilities.

[David Rothkopf]

But he's run out of effective strategies,

[Joseph]

and it's as if the rest of the world is holding up a mirror to him.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, they know. They know. They just know he's full of crap, right? And that it just isn't working. And like, all his old thing. You know, it's like when he would go on a date and he'd say, well, I have a big apartment. Want to come see my apartment? And somebody would say, oh, well, sure, I'll go see your apartment. And then he's like, yeah, I'll respect you in the morning. And they're like, oh, okay, great. You'll respect me in the morning. Now it's like, no, you're an old man. You're disgusting. You smell funny. I wouldn't go anywhere with you. There is no line in the world that'll work. And the same is true with all of these other things. All of his old lines aren't working

[Joseph]

anymore, which is what I thought you saw in Full Flair on Friday night at the White House. Correspondence coming back, full circle. Old. Old lines, old jokes. Like an old Catskill comedian desperately trying to keep the audience away.

[David Rothkopf]

And in some way, in a bigger way, Trump, Putin, Netanyahu. They're reading off an old script. It doesn't work anymore. It's actually causing far more damage than benefits. And they are like, you know, Laurence Olivier and the Entertainer. You know, the old. The old Pavilion.

[Joseph]

Brilliant. Yeah. It's exactly what it feels like, right?

[David Rothkopf]

They're just. They're over the hill, and they want to be on stage. And it's a. It's tragic. It's Willy Loman, too, you know, in Death of a Salesman. It's just. It's tragic. These guys it's also, by the way, Oedipus of Colonists, and it's the Winter's Tale. It's like, you know, we write stories all the time about old leaders who pass their prime, jump the shark, and can't notice how we got from King Lear to jump the shark. That's, you know, but, but, but, but they, they, they, they don't have another move. Trump doesn't have another move.

[Joseph]

He doesn't have another move. All right, so other people that may not have another move. The Tate brothers. The Tate brothers, who were helped out of Romania, where they were wanted on sex trafficking and rape charges, managed to get back to Florida. They are, as you know, they were arrested last week wanted on rape charges, sex driving charges, child pornography charges in the UK Right. And now the White House has said that they're not going to help them. But interestingly, they appeared to be being hosted, at least by Paolo Zampoli.

[David Rothkopf]

Paolo Zampoli, who is involved in the Epstein thing. Friend of Epstein, a guy who was married to a Brazilian model, and then he did or was involved with her, and then he didn't like her anymore. So he calls up and he says, get her thrown out of the country. And she then says, okay, I'm going to tell you everything about Melania and Epstein. And it was a big hubbub, right?

[Joseph]

And he's the man that's supposed to have introduced Donald Trump to Melania Trump at one of his parties, or Melania now. So she was then, Right?

[David Rothkopf]

And, you know, I think one, it, what it gets to, and it goes back to what we were talking about earlier is, you know, it's, it's this idea that this Epstein scandal knows no bounds. Everything is connected to it, because it's not just about Epstein. It's about the way a certain type of rich, empowered people in person with a sense of impunity acts. And they have for a long time thought they could do whatever they wanted. And remember, the Tate brothers, who are among the most vile and disgusting people who ever lived, said, oh, yeah, we're close to the Trumps. And, you know, when they came over here and they got into the country and some strings were pulled for them, you know, apparently Barron Trump, who was about, you know, handling outreach to young men of the Trump campaign, you know, said he was going to work with the Tate brothers. And then the Tate brothers show up at the UFC matches, and Trump goes to the UFC matches, and, you know, you know, Nate Bargazzi goes to the ufc. You know, everybody connects to these things. And I think that's why the Epstein scandal connects to the Epstein class, connects to corruption, connects to Broligarchs, connects to Elon, connects to the big beautiful bill, connects to why people do not have the health care that they wanted, connects to why billionaires are getting huge tax breaks and other people are losing services and paying more and losing their jobs. And so you might say, well, that's the Tate brothers and it's disgusting and it's a little weird that Barron's involved and it ties into Epstein and that's disgusting and think, well, that's not central to the lives of people, but it is, because it's all about rich people with a sense of impunity who feel they control the country, control the society, control the Supreme Court, control the Congress, control the White House, have one of their guys in the White House who's saying, I can do whatever I want. You can grab a woman here, I can commit fraud, I can get a free pass for no audits from the irs. I can make it happen. Trump is the wet dream of all of these people who think that their billions of dollars buy them the right to do whatever they want. And laws and limitations are for little people. And so, you know, I mean, you know, we joked about the Tates and, you know, you were saying it's ruined Capri pants for everybody. And, you know, all this stuff when, when, when they got rounded up and I think this week they're starting to figure out what the trial process is going to look like in the uk. It's another problem for Trump, by the way, quite apart from all this big picture stuff, from now through 99 days, the Tate story is going to be in the headlines and the Epstein story is going to stay in the headlines. I mean, there was an interesting story. I'd be interested in what you thought about it in the New York Times this weekend about Epstein's girlfriend. And she stands to inherit $100 million

[Joseph]

and a 33 carat ring.

[David Rothkopf]

And a 33 carat. And she's, she's a dentist, apparently so. Because Epstein pulls some strings to get her into Columbia Dentistry School. And then.

[Joseph]

Better that he pulled strings than teeth.

[David Rothkopf]

Well, she, she's pulling the teeth now, but, but also, by the way, he. Did you see that he got her into the country. He said the fastest way to get into the country is to have a same sex marriage.

[Joseph]

Yes.

[David Rothkopf]

So there's this other woman, there's this other woman who will marry you and, you know, go pretend you're married for a year and Then she'll divorce you. And that's exactly what happened. She pretended to be married. She got her green card. A year later, they get divorced. And you know what I thought was kind of weird about this story was it tried to portray her as sympathetic, which suggested to me maybe she was helping them with the story a little bit, trying to say, oh, this poor girl. And, you know, why did the hundred million dollars of Epstein should be going to Epstein's victims? There should not be a penny to go to somebody who dated him, who hung out with him ever since he was found to be a criminal.

[Joseph]

Well, and tricked. And tricked the American immigration system by marrying someone, knowing that she was doing it only to get a green card.

[David Rothkopf]

We're joking, but that's a pattern because it was one of the things they had to offer to these people. It was like, oh, I got the system wired. Sleep with me, citizenship, and then you're beholden to me. Then there's beholden, then there's money and blah, blah, blah. And it was a whole gross game of paying people off for sex and services and so forth. But. But the point is, this woman knew who he was. She was the last person he communicated with before he killed himself. Right. She knew who he was. She was cashing in on the whole thing. She should not get a penny. Whatever he's got, whatever assets exist there should not be distributed to, you know, his nephews and nieces.

[Joseph]

Well, and interestingly, the two people that he pressurized to give her a place at Columbia Dentistry School after she was initially turned down have both lost their

[David Rothkopf]

jobs, as they should have, you know, as whoever helped Melania get a genius visa.

[Joseph]

I'm genius, David. I'm genius. She's a genius visa.

[David Rothkopf]

The one genius thing that Melania has ever done right is disappear. How can you, as the first lady of the United States, go missing? Maybe she's with Mitch.

[Joseph]

Maybe she's with Mitch. Mitch and Melania. That's possible.

[David Rothkopf]

You know, who knows? They're off on, you know, some metaphorical Epstein island.

[Joseph]

I think she's, you know, sitting in Trump Tower. And where is Barron? How do you hide a 6 foot 8 boy?

[David Rothkopf]

I don't know how you hide him, but if he's in Trump Tower, like, aren't there reporters? Don't people do this stuff for a living?

[Joseph]

Also, when asked when Paolo Zampoli just reminding people, the model agent who introduced Melania and Donald Trump and who then has just recently hosted the tape, who,

[David Rothkopf]

by the way, Trump made into some kind of an ambassador.

[Joseph]

Yeah. He's an ambassador. He's a trade ambassador. I think when asked if he was doing this as part of his ambassadorial duties, he said, no, no, it was a summer evening. It was a summer outing.

[David Rothkopf]

There were just people hanging out at my house.

[Joseph]

Right?

[David Rothkopf]

I mean, they were sex traffickers and rapists.

[Joseph]

Alleged rapists. Alleged rapists.

[David Rothkopf]

But I hang out.

[Joseph]

You didn't find two more unappealing characters than the Tate brothers. And of course, they're hanging out with Paolo Zampoli, who had his ex girlfriend arrested by ice, and she was for four months kept in ICE facilities.

[David Rothkopf]

And all of these people Trump likes,

[Joseph]

they're friends of Trump. Great guy. Great guy. Lovely guy. Lovely guy.

[David Rothkopf]

This is who he hangs out with. And all I can say, America, is, we know, we have people who lived in New York, knew. You were told over and over again, the sleaziest guy there is, the most corrupt guy there is, the worst businessman, the worst character, hangs out with the worst people. And America said, well, let's give that a try.

[Joseph]

Let's have that guy not once, but twice.

[David Rothkopf]

There are 340 million Americans.

[Joseph]

Final question for you, David. In 15, 20 years, what is the Smithsonian going to say about Donald Trump?

[David Rothkopf]

Well, it's funny you mentioned that because, you know, a couple days ago, Trump issued a statement, executive order, by the way, talk about things he's abused, that said that outside of the Smithsonian, they have to put up signs saying that the history depicted in the Smithsonian may not actually be accurate. Meaning that it may show that we were mean to the slaves. You know, it may show that people who are treated badly actually have grievances and that the white masters of this country may have committed some crimes. Right.

[Joseph]

And the presidents of this country own slaves.

[David Rothkopf]

Right. Well, all of which, by the way, are facts. And the Smithsonian reports them as facts. And I saw this and I thought, and I actually wrote something on social media about it, but I saw this and I was like, oh, you know, I just can't wait. Because the days after Trump died, oh, my God, they're going to be glorious. You know, the hotels will be sold out across Washington as the name Trump comes off of buildings, as the gold lame comes off of everything, as the, you know, decorations come down, as the, as people try to, like, steam clean the entire city, get the bacteria out, get any sense of Trump out. And they're going to try to reverse, reverse all of these things. You know, the, what he's done in the national parks and the Smithsonian and everything where he's.

[Joseph]

Are they going to refill the reflecting.

[David Rothkopf]

The reflecting pool may have to be, you know, filled up with Fiji water or something to keep it, you know, from being, you know, infected by the pool guy. He got to redo the thing with

[Joseph]

a no bid contract and then, surprise, surprise, it goes horribly wrong.

[David Rothkopf]

Right. But the thing that I thought was, think 25 years from now when the Smithsonians got an exhibit on Donald Trump, the worst president ever, the moment American democracy broke down, the moment our society and the protections within we learned the limitations of the Constitution, we learned all of this thing. The golden age of corruption exhibit at the Smithsonian. And Trump will be the center of all that. And it will drive maybe his kids crazy. He won't be around to see it. But I mean, there'll be mugs in the gift shop of Golden Age of corruption with Donald Trump's face on it.

[Joseph]

Gold mugs.

[David Rothkopf]

Gilded mugs.

[Joseph]

Gilded mugs, yeah.

[David Rothkopf]

And that'll be, you know, I mean, I think one of the great punishments and one of the great twists that will be bring true justice to Trump will be history and museums telling it like it is. And he will not, you know, there will be universities, there'll be no true social. He's trying to change the narrative every single day. That's why he's writing 50 of these things a day, because he's trying to tell the world, hey, I'm good, I'm doing things, everything's great. And at a certain point that gets turned off. He has no voice. Truth returns and it's going to be real damn uncomfortable.

[Joseph]

And democracy hasn't entirely died, David, because we are able to have this conversation. And as you say, we're able to be beast.

[David Rothkopf]

Be beast. Yeah. No, it has not. And fortunately, the beast is keeping democracy alive single handedly.

[Joseph]

Well, I think the courts are doing their job too. But, David, it's so nice to have you in the office. It's so fun to just hear your point of view on everything. And it's so much easier to talk to someone when we're not remote, I think. More trips, please. More trips.

[David Rothkopf]

I'd love to come up to New York. It's great. I love New York. It's a separate country.

[Joseph]

It's a separate country. David Rothkop, thank you very much.

[David Rothkopf]

Thank you, Joseph.

[Joseph]

If you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. Thrilling to have you in the office.

[David Rothkopf]

Thrilling to be here. And let's not forget to thank the people who made this possible. John Romero. Impossible to read what you've written here for you.

[Joseph]

Ryan Murray.

[David Rothkopf]

Ryan Murray. Is this your handwriting?

[Joseph]

It's my handwriting, yeah.

[David Rothkopf]

Folks, if you could only see what I see.

[Joseph]

If it was an Rx, you'd be able to read it and you'd scramble to read it.

[David Rothkopf]

Rachel Pasar. Heather Passaro. And Neil Rosenhaus.

[Joseph]

So the good news is we have so many beebeast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.