This is The Sinister Reason for Trump's Shutdown

Summary

---

The Daily Beast Podcast

Episode: This is The Sinister Reason for Trump's Shutdown

Date: October 9, 2025
Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Congressman Ro Khanna

---

Overview

In this wide-ranging and impassioned episode, host Joanna Coles sits down with Congressman Ro Khanna, who has recently been at the national forefront in demanding the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files. Khanna discusses his bipartisan efforts (alongside Republicans like Thomas Massie, Nancy Mace, Lauren Boebert, and Marjorie Taylor Greene) to force public scrutiny of these files, while arguing that the current government shutdown is, at its core, an attempt to prevent their release. The conversation delves into issues of power, government corruption, and the American Dream, touching on topics from Ghislaine Maxwell and powerful tech leaders to the necessity for generational change in U.S. politics.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Epstein Files and the Government Shutdown

[05:01]

• Justice for Survivors: Khanna frames the Epstein files' release as fundamentally about "standing up for survivors and protecting children" who have been denied justice for decades.
• Content of the Files: The files contain details on Epstein and Maxwell’s abuse, possible “farm systems” of victims, and, potentially, information implicating other powerful individuals.
• Victims' Campaign: Khanna emphasizes that victims have been pleading for the files’ release, extending "a cry for help from the most powerful person in the world"—Donald Trump—who did not respond.

[07:38]

• Political Gridlock: Khanna explains the technicality: their coalition has 217 signatures—one short of a House majority needed to force a vote. The swearing-in of Adelita Grijalva (who would be the critical 218th vote) has been blocked by Republican leadership, supposedly to prevent the Epstein vote.
• Shutdown Motive: He contends that the House shutdown is about stopping the release of the Epstein files, with leadership delaying votes specifically to prevent Grijalva’s swearing-in.

“This House is shut down because they don’t want to have the release of the Epstein files.”
— Ro Khanna [08:57]

---

The Nature & Implications of the Cover-Up

[09:52]

• Protection of Powerful Men: Khanna asserts the files contain credible allegations against “rich and powerful men” who either knew about or participated in abuse.
• Bipartisan Resistance: He underscores that this isn’t about targeting Trump alone, but about deep, systemic corruption tied to powerful actors from all political sides.

“You have to think, what force is so powerful that it's preventing the President, United States and the American government for releasing these files?”
— Ro Khanna [10:04]

[11:34]

• Trump Administration's Inaction: Khanna critiques the Trump administration’s failure to actively seek Epstein documents, even as the survivors’ lawyers had them.
• Slow Drip of Information: References that previous, partial file releases already led to high-profile resignations, such as that of British ambassador Peter Mandelson.

---

Ghislaine Maxwell, Pardons, and Survivor Pain

[16:05]

• Maxwell’s Treatment: Khanna expresses outrage at the idea of Maxwell’s lenient treatment and possible pardon, calling it a betrayal of the survivors.
• Direct Pressure from Power: Survivors see the political maneuvers as evidence that crimes against them are minimized because of the abusers' power and connections.

“A pardoning of that is basically saying to these young girls, your stories don't matter. The crimes committed at you don't matter.”
— Ro Khanna [17:09]

[19:46]

• Potential for Justice: Even if prosecution is limited, releasing files would at least create “accountability and catharsis” for victims. Reference to the damage done by Virginia Giuffre’s revelations about Prince Andrew.

---

The Bipartisan Push and Political Courage

[21:28]

• Republican Support: Khanna praises four Republicans—Massie, Mace, Boebert, Taylor Greene—who have faced intense pressure and risk for supporting the cause.

“They have been lobbied by the White House, directly pressured by the President to get off the petition … they’re not going to bully off these women.”
— Ro Khanna [21:57]

---

Transparency, Conspiracy Theories, and the Need for Sunlight

[22:49]

• On Epstein’s Death: Khanna refuses to speculate on Epstein’s jail death, wanting merely “transparency and all the facts out,” avoiding feeding further conspiracy theories.

“The country needs sunshine as the disinfectant.”
— Ro Khanna [23:09]

---

Broader Diagnosis: Generational Change & The American Dream

[28:05]

• America’s Gerontocracy: Khanna argues that the system’s failings are exemplified by a “gerontocracy” clinging to power, to the detriment of progress and opportunity.

“If you've been elected in the 1970s, before I was born, you probably should be stepping aside. If you’ve been in elective office 30, 40 years—step aside.”
— Ro Khanna [29:38]

• Call for Next Generation: He calls for a “new vision,” suggesting America needs a fresh, aspirational leadership to address urgent problems, from AI to income inequality.

---

The Democrats' Future and Winning a Broad Coalition

[30:53]

• Vision: Khanna hopes for a unifying leader who can restore America’s sense of purpose and optimism, in the spirit of Kennedy.
• Leadership Bench: He name-checks Governors Shapiro and Beshear, as well as rising progressive stars like Greg Casar, Joe Neguse, and Jonathan Jackson.

[33:07]

• Coalition Building: Democrats must win back young voters, the working class, and business leaders—a complex but necessary task to retake power.

---

Trumpism, Nihilism, and How Democrats Should Respond

[35:08]

• Trump’s “Change”: Khanna acknowledges Trump’s strange success—despite being an impeached, twice-president—as the voice of “outside change,” even if through destructive means.
• Build, Don’t Burn: He advocates for a Democratic vision focused on building a better future, not just tearing down the current order.

---

Tech Elite, Power, and Political Deference

[36:52]

• Tech Leaders’ Subservience: Coles and Khanna discuss the puzzling spectacle of mega-wealthy tech leaders “prostrating” themselves before Trump, even when it’s clear their respect isn’t mutual.

“One of the aristocrats bend their knee to the king. I often joke ... there's only one aristocratic class in the world today. It's these tech leaders.”
— Ro Khanna [37:48]

• Motivations: Khanna suggests it’s driven by a wish to avoid direct retaliations and for purely pragmatic, short-term interests.

---

Social Media, TikTok, and Power Over Speech

[45:26]

• TikTok Ban: Khanna opposed it, arguing that much of the Congressional action is backlash to anti-Israel/US policy content from young users. He supports regulation to prevent foreign influence, but warns against stifling speech.

“If you have a voice, you can find an outlet, even if the playing field is slightly stacked against you ... the country can be won over.”
— Ro Khanna [46:36]

• Media Bias: He warns of the right trying to dominate media and social platforms, but ends on an optimistic note about the vibrancy and resilience of American discourse.

---

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On why the shutdown matters:
  “This House is shut down because they don't want to have the release of the Epstein files.”
  — Ro Khanna [08:57]

• On corruption’s bipartisan nature:
  “This is not rocket science. It just shows that there was no seriousness of actually getting these documents from the Trump administration.”
  — Ro Khanna [11:50]

• On tech leaders’ posture:
  “I often joke that there's only one aristocratic class in the world today. It's these tech leaders.”
  — Ro Khanna [37:48]

• On the generational divide:
  “If you’ve been elected in the 1970s, before I was born, you probably should be stepping aside.”
  — Ro Khanna [29:38]

• On the importance of hope:
  “Talk about how the country is going to be resilient, how we're going to make it out of it, how our greatest days are ahead.”
  — Ro Khanna [47:23]

---

Key Timestamps

• [05:01] – Khanna explains what the Epstein files are and why their release matters for survivors.
• [07:38] – Discussion of the political mechanics preventing the files’ release and the implication for the House shutdown.
• [09:52] – Khanna details the deep power aligned against the release, and why so many are implicated.
• [16:05] – Maxwell’s treatment and how survivors are traumatized by political maneuvering.
• [21:28] – The risks and courage of the Republicans in Khanna’s bipartisan effort.
• [22:49] – Khanna refuses to speculate on Epstein’s death, emphasizing need for sunlight, not conspiracy.
• [28:05] – Critique of political gerontocracy, call for generational change.
• [35:08] – On Trump’s appeal as the agent of “change,” and why Democrats need vision.
• [37:48] – The odd deference of tech elites to Trump, as discussed with Coles.
• [45:26] – TikTok discussion and concerns over stifling of youth speech.

---

Tone and Style

The discussion is frank, passionate, and occasionally acerbic, with both Coles and Khanna expressing frustration at political cowardice, systemic rot, and the insulating behaviors of elites. Khanna’s tone is forthright, emphasizing justice, transparency, and hopefulness for generational renewal.

---

Conclusion

In this lively and incisive episode, Ro Khanna emerges as a fervent advocate for justice and transparency in the Epstein saga, while also articulating a broader critique of generational stagnation and elite power—be it in Congress or Silicon Valley. He urges the Democratic Party to stop "whining about fascism" and instead project strength and vision for the future, offering one of the most detailed, optimistic, and rallying arguments for change as America faces a crisis of confidence and trust.

---

Transcript

[Paige Desorbo]

Hey, I'm Paige desorbo and I'm always thinking about underwear.

[Hannah Berner]

I'm Hannah Berner and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage. I like to call them my granny panties.

[Paige Desorbo]

Actually, I never think about underwear. That's the magic of Tommy John.

[Hannah Berner]

Same. They're so light and so comfy. And if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.

[Paige Desorbo]

And the bras? Soft, supportive and actually breathable.

[Hannah Berner]

Yes. Lord knows the girls need to breathe. Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery, soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night. That's why I live in my John pajamas.

[Paige Desorbo]

Plus they're so cute because they fit perfectly.

[Hannah Berner]

Put yourself on to Tommy John.

[Paige Desorbo]

Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John. Save 25% for a limited time at tommyjohn.comfort. see site for details. Trimble knows that for the work we all depend on where speed counts, there's no room for mistakes. Every turn matters. Trimble is the technology company that connects your physical and digital worlds across industries like construction, transportation, geospatial and Bey. You can get hard work done faster than you ever thought possible. You can check them [e-mail] with Trimble on your team, you're in command of connected solutions to overcome unknowns and keep work flowing. See what's coming. Take intelligent action. Stay on time and budget time after time, with confidence at every step, every decision, every turn. Because work doesn't move in a straight line, keeping it going requires the agility to adjust. In the field, at the office, on the road, everywhere. When you're ready to turn, turn data into decisions, turn deadlines into finish lines, and turn possibilities into profits. It's time to turn. To tremble. Tremble Confidence at every turn.

[Ro Khanna]

Most security systems react after a break in begins. That's too late. SimpliSafe is different. It's proactive. Active Guard Outdoor Protection uses AI powered cameras to spot suspicious activity before criminals get inside. Live monitoring agents can see, speak to and scare off intruders in real time, quickly calling police if needed. To get 50% off your new system, go to SimpliSafe.com podcast that's SimpliSafe.com podcast for 50% off. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. There are a lot of rich and powerful men who knew that Epstein was raping and abusing young girls and kept quiet about it. Hit it. You have to think what force is so powerful that it's preventing the President, United States and the American government for releasing These files, I believe that it is. That's the central question that people are asking.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. And today we are going to be talking to a man who's really sprung to national prominence with his work on the Jeffrey Epstein files. We're going to be talking to Ro Khanna about why he is so determined to get them released. He's been working with Thomas Massie, a Republican, and of course, Nancy Mace, Lauren Boebert, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, the three women Republicans who've joined him in demanding alongside the victims, the release of all the Epstein files. Come on, Dan Bongino. Come on. Cash Patel, you were asking for these, too, until you got into those big important jobs as the number one and the number two at the FBI. But Ro Khanna has been at the forefront of demanding the Epstein files be released. He also has very thoughtful solutions for the Democrats to stop whining about fascism and get out there and start fighting for the future of America. We had a very lively conversation and we also touched upon why is it that so many of the leaders, the tech leaders from his 17th congressional district that he represents in California where he has all the big, the big tech companies, including five companies worth over $1 trillion each. Why is it those leaders just fawn when Donald Trump summons them to dinner? Why do they prostate themselves in front of our president? Anyway, no time to waste. Let's get straight into it. So, Ro Khanna, extremely excited to have you on the Daily Beast podcast. Thank you for joining us.

[Ro Khanna]

I'm excited myself. And congratulations. I hear you. 400,000 viewers. That's incredible.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah. Well, 400,000 subscribers on YouTube. We hit the mark today. Thank you very much. Yes. And frequently we have an excess of that watching. So let's hope we get a big audience. But you have, obviously you've been in Congress for some time, but I think it's fair to say you've really sprung to nationwide prominence with your work on the Epstein files. First of all, how should we think of the Epstein files? What exactly are they?

[Ro Khanna]

On a very basic level, this is about standing up for survivors and protecting children. Right. We've had for over 15 years young girls who were raped by Epstein at the when they were 14, 15, who were told to recruit other junior high girls or high school girls to be raped and abused by Epstein. And they have now grown into women and adulthood and they still have not had justice. And Epstein got a lenient sentence. Then he was re prosecuted. At no point during any of that were the victims or the victims attorneys really consulted, and they have been pushing for this, the release of these files for decades. The victim's lawyer has seen them, but the victims want these files. What are in these files? Information about the abuse that Epstein and Maxwell committed. There's also information about a farm system of people who Epstein may have sent women to to be abused. And there's information about that in these, in these files. And that that's basically, you know, this is the first time some of them have felt heard in this country. It's really nothing to do with Donald Trump. These people have been denied justice for over a decade. And some of them were actually when they came to the steps of the Capitol, pleading with Donald Trump to meet with them to be the person who released the files. While he was calling them a hoax, they were extending their arms out with a cry for help from the most powerful person in the world to actually hear their plight.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, you say it's nothing to do with Donald Trump, yet Donald Trump campaigned saying that he would demand the release of the Epstein files in February. He's head of the doj. His former personal lawyer, Pam Bondi, the said she was planning to release them. Then in July, she said there was nothing to release, there was nothing to see here. So, in a sense, are we. And then you have got involved with Thomas Massie, the two of you across the House. Thomas Massie, of course, a libertarian Republican, demanding the release of the Epstein files. Just tell us at the moment where exactly it is, because you've got the votes to demand it. Right. But there are one or two delays going on. Can you explain to us where your request is right now?

[Ro Khanna]

Yeah. When I say nothing to do with Trump, I mean, this is not somehow a sense to get Donald Trump. This is about releasing the files and justice for the victims. It turns out that Donald Trump could have actually done the right thing and could have been seen as a hero to these survivors. Instead, he has become part of the very corrupt system he railed against. He has become part of the system that is covering this up. And that's where people's anger is. And that we've. That's why we formed a bipartisan coalition. Thomas Massie, myself, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Nancy Mace. And we have 217 signatures in the house. We need 218, which is a majority, to force a vote to release the files. And we have Adelita Gralva, who has won her election for over two weeks back, who's waiting to be sworn in, and the speaker keeps canceling votes because he knows the day that we have votes in the House of Representatives, she will be sworn in and we will get a vote on the release of the Epstein files. But can you imagine this? I mean, people want to have a vote today, tomorrow to pay our troops during the shutdown. Speaker and Republican leadership are saying, no, we can't have a vote. Why? Because Adelina Grijova will be sworn in 218th person and they're going to have a vote on the Epstein files. Now, they deny that the Epstein files are the motive for why they aren't having votes. But if that's the case, then why don't they just swear Adelina Grijalva in and then that would answer the question. If they swear her in, then that we know that they're not canceling votes to prevent her swearing in. But the reality is they're not doing that. And this whole thing, this House is shut down because they don't want to have the release of the Epstein files.

[Joanna Coles]

So why the COVID up? Why are the Republicans and Donald Trump so anxious to keep the Epstein files? Which one has to remind people that his head of the FBI and his number two at the FBI. So Kash Patel and Dan Bongino, before they were put in those jobs, were constantly talking about the Epstein files, the Epstein conspiracy. What is at the center of this cover up? Why is Donald Trump so anxious?

[Ro Khanna]

There are a lot of rich and powerful men who knew that Epstein was raping and abusing young girls and kept quiet about it. Hit it. And then there are credible allegations that there were rich and powerful men who abused girls, that Epstein farmed to them. And a lot of these people are in those files. And my sense is that there are powerful people and powerful forces that don't want these files out. You have to think, what force is so powerful that it's preventing the President, United States and the American government for releasing these files? I believe that it is. That's the central question that people are asking. And every time they take these extraordinary measures like shutting down the Congress, not even having votes out of fear of releasing these files, it adds to the skepticism and anger of the American public who think that there's something rotten. There's. So at this point, what we just need is a full release of the files. By the way, the first casualty of these files, the slow release we've had from the Epstein estate has been the British ambassador who was the architect of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown's victory. So this is nothing to do with, like, what I said, left or right, this is about transparency wherever it leads.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. I think you're referring to Peter Mandelson, who is the British ambassador based in D.C. who in fact had organized what was supposed to be a triumphant visit for Donald Trump to meet the King of England, his second state visit. And, of course, Peter Mandelson was fired the week before Donald Trump went there.

[Ro Khanna]

He was. And, you know, this shows how incompetent the Trump administration has been actually at investigating the Epstein files. Because you would think if you were investigating the Epstein files, one of the things you would do is write a letter to the Epstein estate to get all the documents. It turns out they didn't do that. I was on Lawrence o' Donnell one night, and right before me was the lawyer for the survivors who says, look, I have a tip for anyone in Washington. Why don't you get some of these documents from the Epstein estate? And I then wrote a letter to the Epstein estate, and now that we, to Chair Comer's credit, he subpoenaed them, and now we're getting these documents. But this is not rocket science. I mean, it just shows that there was no seriousness of actually getting these documents from the Trump administration. And now we know that these documents exist. People say, how do you know that they aren't mangling the documents or shredding the documents? Because the lawyer for the survivors has seen the documents. So we know what they exist. We know what true documents will be when they're released, and they're just covering it up.

[Joanna Coles]

So yesterday, one of the senators asked Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, and I always like to remind people she was Donald Trump. One of Donald Trump's personal lawyers, before he appointed, pointed her to the head of the DOJ if she knew about photographs of Donald Trump sitting with topless young women with Jeffrey Epstein. And we do know through the works of Michael Wolff, who's someone that spends a lot of time at the Daily Beast, and he and I have an Inside Trump's Head podcast that Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein were friends for many years. But Michael Wolff says he has seen these photos. And we're trying to figure out where are these photos? And it was very interesting when the senator from Rhode island asked Pam Bondi, had she seen these photos, did she know about these photos? She didn't answer.

[Ro Khanna]

Well, this is why we need a release of the files. I mean, if there are any such evidence, that would be in the Epstein files. They are files that have the investigation that the FBI has done. Their witness memorandum There probably was, in my view, some investigation or questioning of Trump just because they investigated and talked to everyone that Epstein knew. All of this is in the files and it can all be made public. And, and it's in the discretion of Donald Trump and Pam Bondi. And my view is that they should do it. This is not going away. Their strategy has been, well, let's just shut down Congress. It'll go away. Let's just get a delay, not swear in Adelaide Grijalva, it'll go away. And what happens is it does die down and then it rears its ugly head back up because the American public is tuned into this story and once the Congress starts again, they'll say, okay, let's release the files. So they are just having this drag on. They're not going to be able to shake the story. And if I were giving them advice, I'd say, just release the files. I mean, it's better than this, drip, drip, drip. And we would say, well, why does it matter? Is it the most important thing to Americans? No, it's not the most important thing. The most important thing is of course right now that they have health care, that they are able to pay the bills, that they can support their kids, that they have freedoms. But it goes to the sense that our government has been rigged for powerful and rich forces and that this rigged government has just been asleep while 70% of Americans no longer believe in the American dream, while wealth is piling up in districts like mine and there has been decline across this country and people are fed up and they're saying this government isn't working for me. And the Epstein Saga is Exhibit 1 for a government that has been corrupted?

[Joanna Coles]

It's a really good point. What did you think when you heard that Todd Blanche, number two in the doj, another former personal lawyer of Donald Trump's, had been down to visit Ghislaine Maxwell after the appearance of a birthday letter from a book that she had put together for Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday that apparently had a letter from Donald Trump in it. And then five days after a two day interview with Todd Blanche, remember the number two at the Justice Department who should have other things to do, she got moved to a low security jail in Texas. What did you think of that?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, I was outraged because I knew the survivors perspective about it. I mean, the survivors, when they were in Capitol, on Capitol Hill, many of them were supposed to talk about the need for the release of the Epstein files, but they were so offended by what was happening with Maxwell that some felt the need to address that situation. I mean, Maxwell is a convicted sex offender. If you ask some of the survivors, they will say she was equally to blame for their abuse, that she basically recruited some of these junior high girls knowing that they would be raped, knowing that they would be abused, knowing that they would be farmed out. And a pardoning of that is basically saying to these young girls, your stories don't matter. The crimes committed at you don't matter. You were discardable objects because it was a powerful rich person who did this, whose partner happens to know the president's personal lawyer. It is really making people feel abandoned a second time as adults, even as they were felt abandoned when they were raped as young girls. And so there was such hurt, such anger, such disgust that this was even being considered. And so I felt that, look, I have gotten more passionate about this issue the more survivors I have met. It started out as something that I felt was a wrong of our government covering up and wanted to do to restore trust and wanted to do in a bipartisan way. But as I met some of these survivors, I mean, they have just had tragic lives, horrific lives. They have been silenced. And they were told you can't do anything about it because they're rich and powerful people who know politicians, who know people in power. And that's tough. And in some ways, many people sense that rich and powerful people get away with things that they can't. This is the most extreme, egregious case of it.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and I appreciate that people are, of course concerned about the expense of eggs and milk and gas and things. But as you say, this, this story seems to encapsulate what people find infuriating about rich and powerful people who believe they can get away with things. Earlier this week, Kaitlin Collins of CNN asked the President whether or not he would consider pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell because the Supreme Court had refused to take her case on the docket, as I know you know, and he said he didn't know, he had to think about it. He put on, as Michael Wolf called it, his Epstein face, where he pretends that he sort of barely heard of Jeffrey Epstein. It's ringing a bell. What is it? If he were to pardon Ghislaine Maxwell, and there are certainly those who believe a deal has already been done and they're not going to do it immediately, but over the next six to nine months, she will be released from her 20 year sentencing. What can the victims do to bring attention back to what they went through? I mean, it must be. We've certainly interviewed victims on our shows, on our podcasts, and I sense how infuriating it must be to not be taken seriously. How can they respond? At one point, there was talk that they were going to put their own list together of people that they had all known. Certainly when Virginia Giuffre did that with Prince Andrew, it turned out to be very damaging for him, certainly in the uk what canwhat other mechanism is there for victims to be heard here?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, it would be a total punch in the gut to pardon Maxwell. It would be saying that we know that there is evidence and a conviction of someone who has abused young girls, and we don't care as a society that we are okay with it. And these young girls now are women who have to see the person who abused them release. And the added fact is they don't even know the details of what happened because they can't see the files and the investigation that hasn't been made public. What they can do is continue to demand justice. And I do think that there will be justice in terms of accountability, of some kind of accountability if these files are released. We saw that with the British ambassador. I mean, we saw that within days that one of the most prominent British politicians who literally architected Blair and Brown's victories was asked to resign. And so it may not be that people are prosecuted with the statute of limitations and other evidentiary issues, but there will be accountability. If there wasn't going to be accountability, they wouldn't be so afraid of releasing these files. So I believe that for the survivors, what we need to do is get all of this information out there, and then as a society, we need to have a reckoning. Because what happened is we had a culture, a permissiveness, permissiveness for rich and powerful people to abuse women and to abuse young girls. And we need to be honest about recognizing that what the culture we permitted and make amends for that. Start to make amends for that, we need a public catharsis of that which the file release will do.

[Joanna Coles]

You've got four Republicans who've, against Donald Trump's wishes and against Mike Johnson's wishes, crossed the floor to vote with you on this. Nancy Mace, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, and of Thomas Massie. How difficult has it been for them to do this?

[Ro Khanna]

Very. I mean, Thomas Massie is having millions of dollars spent against him in a challenge. All of the other women Republicans have shown courage. I mean, they have been lobbied by the White House directly pressured by the president to get off the petition. The fact that they've been on the petition now for over a month shows their resolve. And I think at this point, the speaker and the President should realize that they're not going to bully off these, these women. And that's why they're just holding off and trying to, to delay the inevitable, which is that Adelita Grijalova will come in and be the 218 signature. But I am hopeful that once she is sworn in, we will get 50, 60 Republican votes when it actually comes for a vote on the floor, and then it will go to the Senate. And if we get a strong vote from the House, there'll be enormous pressure for the Senate to pass this.

[Joanna Coles]

So, Congressman, just a final question on the, on the Epstein story. What do you think happened to him in jail? Why do you think he died?

[Ro Khanna]

I have no idea. And the reason I don't want to speculate is that I don't want to fan the flames of Trump, of conspiracy theories. And I have no preconceived notion of the truth there. Neither do I have a partisan motive. What I want is simply transparency and I want all the facts out. And if it was a suicide, it was a suicide, and let's get all the facts out. If it wasn't, then let's get the facts out. But what the country needs is the sunshine as the disinfectant. We need all of the files out. And I have tried, and Thomas Massie has tried not to speculate about the content because our interest is really just getting the facts out.

[Joanna Coles]

Congressman, hold on one second. We're just going to take some abs.

[Ro Khanna]

This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. Can a home security system really call itself effective if it only responds once an intruder has broken into your home? SimpliSafe has set itself apart by stopping crime before it starts. Using AI powered cameras working to spot trouble the moment it appears live, agents step in instantly warning intruders and calling the police. I've signed up for Simplisafe home protection so I can afford real peace of mind the next time I go on vacation. No contracts, no hidden fees and a 60 day money back guarantee. Right now, get 50% off a new home security system at SimpliSafe.com DailyBeast that's SimpliSafe.com DailyBeast Proper security means protecting your home before crime starts.

[Joanna Coles]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. October 10th is World Mental Health Day. And this year, Better Help is saying for thank you therapists. Behind every small win, whether it's well timed advice, a space to identify complex problems or simply being heard. Is a therapist who showed up. BetterHelp has helped more than 5 million people worldwide find those moments thanks to over 30,000 licensed professionals. If something is keeping you up at night, talking to the right person can make all the difference. BetterHelp's 12 years of experience means they will match you with a therapist who fits your needs. And if it's not gelling, you can switch anytime this World Mental Health Day. Join me in celebrating the professionals who make the world a healthier place. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com dailybeast that's betterhelp.com dailybeast running a small business is the least small thing you'll ever do. It devours your time, your brain, your sleep. I know from my experience with the Daily Beast what can help you from drowning. Having the Right Platform and Shopify is the one place with every tool you need to grow your business. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, including big names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands like yours. Just getting started. Tackle all the important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and more. Shopify makes the marketing easy with built in tools for running social media and email campaigns so you can find and keep new customers. You'll never miss a sale again. Only with Shopify. Get all the big stuff for your small business right now with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify. Shopify.com beast go to shopify.com beast shopify.com beast this episode is brought to you by Royal Kingdom, the visually stunning Match 3 puzzle adventure. I first tried Royal Kingdom when I was waiting for a coffee and suddenly I was whisked away into this fun, story driven world with a king, a princess, and even a slightly anxious Grand Duke who's just trying to keep things together, which I might resonate a bit with. The story's immersive equal parts charming and clever. What do I love most? Royal Kingdom's beautifully animated scenes that make you laugh out loud. Royal Kingdom is smart, seamless and crucially ad free and no wifi required. So it's perfect for those quick in between moments we all have. So if you're looking for a fun and adventurous escape, download Royal Kingdom now. It's free on the App Store or Google Play. Try Royal Kingdom today. And we're back with Congressman Ro Connor talking about, well, pretty much everything. Okay, I am Going to ask you to speculate about something else, which is Donald Trump's health, which I believe a little bit like our previous president Joe Biden's health was actuallythere were symptoms in plain sight that people chose not to take any notice of or not enough notice of. We know what happened in the case of Joe Biden. But how confident are you that Donald Trump is actually in sufficiently good health to be President of the United States?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, first, I'm less concerned about Donald Trump's health and more concerned about the health of America. The fact that we have a president who is attacking universities, who's defunding science, who is attacking free speech by getting comedians outlawed, who is banning international students when we need to be recruiting talent, who has ICE agents acting with total impunity, parading young kids half clothed on the streets and ripping kids away from their families. That is not America. And whether it's Trump or the people around him, they have really taken a stake to the fundamental values of this country of the dignity, respect of every person for belief in scientific progress, of a belief that America is a moral beacon for the world. In terms of Trump, I mean, look, I think it is this incredible irony and historians will try to explain it, why this country brimming with youth, brimming with the future, which is America's self conception, breaking away from Europe, breaking away from ancient civilizations, I mean, people come here to start anew, has been had the unfortunate coincidence of having been led for the past decade by 80 year old men. I don't understand it. I think that there is a going to be such a burst of a new generation of energy in 26 and 28 and some of these people need to step aside who have been in politics on both sides and they've been there. If you've been elected in the 1970s, before I was born, you probably should be stepping aside. If you've been in elective office 30, 40 years, step aside, make way for a new generation on both sides. So I view Trump as a symptom of a broader problem, of a gerontocracy that has held on and that hasn't held on. Well, it's not like they're the greatest generation. It's not like they saved us from fascism on their watch. The American dream has declined. Wealth has concentrated, income inequality is high. Maxwell House is saying we are no longer going to be called Maxwell House as a coffee shop. We're going to be called Maxwell Apartments because young kids are more likely to live in apartments. This is the governing Class. We need to indict the governing class and say we need a new vision, a new generation that's going to carry this country forward.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, that was a very powerful rallying cry. So who are you excited about in the Democrats, Democratic Party? Who do you think would emerge as a realistic leader for a country which is, for the most part, in the middle? We may have 10% on the right, 10% on the fringe left, but we know that the majority of people are somewhere in the middle who can appeal to enough Americans.

[Ro Khanna]

I think it will be a next generation leader. I hope it'll be in the mold of what Kennedy summoned America to do. That's what inspired my parents to come here. We were on the march, we were humming, we were. We were the place to be. And there was a sense of national purpose, that we were going to do big things, that we were on the march on civil rights, women's rights, peace, but also economically preeminent and a leader to the world. And I hope someone of a next generation, we have a lot of talent in our party, will do that. I hope it'll be an aspirational vision of what America can do. I hope it'll be a vision of bringing this nation together after all the division. And I hope it'll ask Americans to be bigger. We have been so coward in our small version of ourselves with fear and division and ugliness, and I think it's time that we're summoned to a new national calling of renewal in this nation. I think whoever can do that will emerge, whether it's on the Republican side or Democratic side. I mean, we have a lot of talent in this country. They just haven't had the chance to. To shine because of the grip that the old guard has had on political power.

[Joanna Coles]

I think a lot of people listening and watching this will totally be nodding their heads and agreeing with you. But the people that you're thinking about will already probably be elected at this stage. So if you're going to call upon three or four Democrats to lead the party into the future, who would they be? Who would they be? And I'm assuming that you might be in there. Would you be up for running for president? Assuming the Democrats put forward a strong numerical bench for it, do you think that you would be up there?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, look, I think there are going to be 10 to 15 people who should run and who will bring different strengths. I mean, there are people. Governor Shapiro is a friend and is someone who I've worked with, Governor Beshear. There's great progressive Leaders who may not run for for president, but who are going to like Greg Kazar on the Progressive Caucus, Joe Negus, who's in Colorado, and Jonathan Jackson is the new generation leader in Illinois. But the point is that first we've got to win the midterms. And that's not just theoretical, it's really what's in front of us. And then we need to have a contest and a contest of ideas. I believe the first test for the Democratic Party will be how do you unify the party around an inspirational vision. If you cannot unify your own party, how are you going to unify the country? One of the things I've been proud to do is I got to campaign for Mikey Sherrill, Abigail Spanberger and Zoran Mamdani, all of the folks. And we as a party have to do three different things. We have to bring back young people who we lost. Kamala Harris didn't win enough of. We have to win back the working class, steel workers, auto workers in Michigan, Pennsylvania, who didn't vote for us blue collar workers. And we have to win back the business class because a lot of business leaders went for Trump. And so a lot of times I hear all these Democrats fighting about, well, do we have a young person problem, a blue collar problem, or a business leaders problem? We have all three. And guess what? You got to put that together to lead the free world. It's not supposed to be easy. We've got to do all three to build a coalition to be able to win back the House and the White House.

[Joanna Coles]

Do you think that Kamala Harris should run again in 2028?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, that's totally for her to decide. I mean, this, the great thing in this country is everyone gets to, to decide what they want to do and run. And I will say there's any pundit who's sort of predicting something ahead of time, oh, someone can't win, or someone can win because of their gender or their race or that they ran before the office. They hold. I probably take the opposite bet because the only thing I know about pundits is that they've been dead wrong. They were wrong about Trump the first time. They didn't think he could win. They were wrong about Trump the second time. They were wrong about Barack Obama. They were wrong about Pete Buttigieg. You know, it's sort of, that's because not because they're bad people, because they have conventional wisdom of thinking. And the American people want change. They want something different. And so, you know, in terms of her, it's totally her decision, what she wants to do and how she best thinks she can serve.

[Joanna Coles]

You say the American people wanted change and wanted different, but then they revoted in Donald Trump.

[Ro Khanna]

Well, he was, believe it or not, he managed to be the outsider. I mean, this four times impeached president was the outsider. And I think part of it is because he hadn't spent a life in politics. His only experience in politics was sort of four years. And he managed to say untruthfully that he was going to lower prices on day one. He hasn't done that, that he was going to bring people's jobs back, that he was going to take on the status quo. And he became the candidate of change. He's. He's been the candidate of tearing down a system, of not having a system that's not working for people. And he's offered in it nihilism, Just tear it all down. And some people say, yeah, just tear it all down so we can start building again. And the Democrats have to be the party that says, yes, we need to reform these institutions and the system, but we have something better to build and that we want to rally people around the impulse not of lighting a fire, but of building things. You know, I once at a college professor, I was very proud of myself. I had this critique that I thought was devastating of John Rawls is Theory of Justice. And the professor said, critiquing someone or a dime a dozen, try building your own ideas, that's much harder. You know, in politics, it's easy to tear things down. The great leaders build things up. The Democratic Party will defeat Trumpism by aspiring to be excellent, by aspiring to be big, by aspiring to offer a vision big enough to deal with the problems that we have today of AI and job loss, of the economic divides because of globalization, of the loss of the American dream. And to say, we see the future, and here's how your family, your community is going to participate in that future. And here are the changes we need to make that happen.

[Joanna Coles]

So you sit in a Congress district which is literally at the heart of Silicon Valley. You're over San Jose. You've got Cupertino, the home of Apple in your constituency. What do you think when you see those tech leaders who have more money than God, more power than God, sitting alongside Donald Trump, humbly thanking him for the opportunity to get together. I mean, you know, I was thinking about watching Bill Gates and hearing him say, you know, thank you so much for bringing us all together. You know, that Bill Gates doesn't like Donald Trump. We know this. So why are they doing it? If you have all that money and all that power, why do you have to sit and prostrate yourself in front of a man that we know and Donald Trump knows, doesn't, don't. Don't respect him?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, one of the aristocrats bend their knee to the king. I often joke that there's only one aristocratic class in the world today. It's the. These tech leaders. There they are at the White House with Donald Trump, and then two weeks later, I see them there with King Charles in England. You know, nothing. Everyone else, else changes. But the tech. It's like the tech coterie is. Is the modern nobility. But I guess, look, I. Pragmat. Pragmatism says that obviously they have to meet with the President. But what I wish some of them did is what Jensen Wong did this morning, which is to say immigration is at the foundation of the American dream. I mean, how about saying that when you meet with Donald Trump, or you can't just have blanket tariffs, or one third of the AI talent is in China, so if we stop immigration, we're going to hurt American competitiveness. Or don't destroy the funding for AI and science at the National Science foundation or the funding for medical research, but instead, they are there with total deference. And it's. I understand what their view is. They want to just be under the table and not incur his wrath, not be singled out for being fired or having punitive issues on their companies. And then, you know, if Gretchen Whitmer were president in 2028, they'd all line up behind her. But the problem is that the pendulum in America swings. It doesn't swing automatically. And the real sadness is not just the early acquiescence of Congress. I think we have found our spine. But America has very diffuse power centers. We have power with the media, power with finance, power with technology, power with law firms. And what has been saddening, saddening to see for me is the acquiescence of so many centers of power in America. We need to snap out of it. We need to understand, kind of a Wizard of Oz moment, that Donald Trump isn't as. That the bite is not as loud as the bark, and collectively have the strength to stand up to him for fundamental American values.

[Joanna Coles]

Congressman, just one second for some messages.

[Paige Desorbo]

Hey, I'm Paige desorbo, and I'm always thinking about underwear.

[Hannah Berner]

I'm Hannah Berner, and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage. I like to call them my granny panties, actually.

[Paige Desorbo]

I never think about underwear. That's the magic of Tommy John.

[Hannah Berner]

Same. They're so light and so comfy. And if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.

[Paige Desorbo]

And the bras? Soft, supportive and actually breathable.

[Hannah Berner]

Yes. Lord knows the girls need to breathe. Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery, soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night. That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas.

[Paige Desorbo]

Plus they're so cute because they fit perfectly.

[Hannah Berner]

Put yourself on to Tommy John.

[Paige Desorbo]

Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John. Save 25% for a limited time at tommyjohn.comfort. see site for details.

[Ro Khanna]

Most security systems react after a break in begins. That's too late. Simplisafe is different. It's proactive. Active guard Outdoor Protection uses AI powered cameras to spot suspicious activity before criminals get inside. Live monitoring agents can see, speak to and scare off intruders in real time, quickly calling police if needed. To get 50% off your new system, go to SimpliSafe.com podcast. That's SimpliSafe.com podcast for 50% off. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch.

[Joanna Coles]

Yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month.

[Ro Khanna]

Two, seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom used to say, are you, are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a try.

[Joanna Coles]

@Mintmobile.Com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan.

[Paige Desorbo]

$15 per month equivalent required.

[Joanna Coles]

New customer offer first three months only.

[Paige Desorbo]

Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Joanna Coles]

See mint mobile.com and we're back with Congressman Karno who is determined to make sure the Epstein files get out there. We had Anthony Scaramucci, his former White House communications director, admittedly only for 11 days, but who'd been very involved in Trump 1's campaign and also was part of the transition team hiring people to work in the first cabinet. And he said that Trump is laughing at these tech leaders. He's just laughing at them as they prostrate themselves. Are we wrong to think of them as just fawning? Are they being literallyI mean, you mentioned the word pragmatism, but how pragmatic is it to be out there fawning away in public?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, I don't like it and I don't think they had to go that Far. But I guess they're, their assessment of the situation is that they don't want to risk upsetting him while, while he has power and that they will do that until he has power. I think an alternative approach to Donald Trump, though, is something that President Shanebaum did, where she did stand up to him, where she did push back, and at the same time has engagement. And I actually think that's something that Trump would respect more than complete subservience. So each leader has to figure this out for themselves. But my view is that there are values deeper than even your responsibility to your company and shareholders, and that is your responsibility to the country and to humanity. And on basic issues that you should speak up and speak your mind.

[Joanna Coles]

And I take your point about the president of Mexico. When you talk to tech leaders, and I know you do, I know they hold you in great regard, what do they say about the president? What's your insider takeaway from what some of these tech leaders think actually about him?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, they're concerned about his anti immigrant rhetoric. They're concerned about his tariff policy. They're concerned about his attacks on universities and science. They like his deregulation and AI. I disagree with them on that. I think that we need to have safeguards and to make sure AI isn't just in the tools hands of billionaires, but actually is something that is going to benefit all of us and that we have a plan for jobs. But they, they are fine with sort of his deregulation and they, they are basically biding their time thinking that they don't want to be hurt or hit directly in their companies making money. And their valuations with AI are soaring. $14 trillion in my district, five companies, over a trillion dollars. But I often say to them, you know, you ought to pay more of a tax, but call it the anti revolution tax. I mean, there's no, you can't, this is not sustainable. You can't sustain a country where you have this kind of massive wealth inequality and people feel that they're losing hope and losing the American dream and you're playing by fire by countenancing Trump's ugliness in his politics. And so I think it is short termism. It's short term. Our company will survive, but the American project of a cohesive democracy is being hurt.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, so final question. You have been very outspoken, consistently so, about the power of social media to change our public discourse. What do you make of the current situation around the ownership of TikTok?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, look, I'm concerned, first of all, I believe. I mean, I know some disagree with me. I believe one of the reasons that there was such an outcry over TikTok is because there were young kids who were criticizing Israel and American foreign policy on there. And that's really when a lot of this started in the Congress. I voted against the TikTok ban. I said, look, we can have the data here in the United States. We can have a law that says any foreign government should not intervene with American decision making and American companies algorithm, but you should not be banning an app because you don't like some of the speech. And now let's see who buys that algorithm and the TikTok app and let's see what they do with it. But if they move it to the right, like Elon Musk has done with X, you're really hurting speech in this country. And that the right has a. A plan, a roadmap to take over as much of the media ecosystem that they can to bias, to tilt the playing field. The good news is that America is still a very noisy, vibrant country. And if you have a voice, you can find an outlet, even if the playing field is slightly stacked against you. It's not as stacked as it was against Dr. King or John Lewis or other, or even, I would argue, Barack Obama. And the country is a country that can be won over, and that Donald Trump ultimately speaks for 40 to 43%, not for 60%. So we're going to win the elections in New Jersey and Virginia. I'm confident that this ballot in California is going to pass that will help us win seats there, and this will be the jolt that the Democrats need. I'm tired of the Democrats going on programs and saying, you know, we're losing the country to fascism and we're all going down the road of fascism. Imagine if Winston Churchill had given those speeches in the 1940s. Imagine if when you're on a plane and you have turbulence, the pilot keeps talking about how you're going to crash. We have 15 minutes of Democrats talking about how the country is doomed. Why would you want to follow someone like that? Talk about how the country is going to be resilient, how we're going to make it out of it, how our greatest days are ahead, how we're going to be a vibrant, strong democracy, the first cohesive, multiracial democracy that is the leader of the free world, and this is our plan to get there. And Donald Trump is not going to stop a nation that has fought a revolutionary war, overcome the civil war, defeated tyranny defeated communism, overcome slavery and Jim Crow, that we are much stronger than Donald Trump. The Democrats, when they say fight and project strength, what they mean is project strength. About your vision for America, I think.

[Joanna Coles]

That you are going to, to be running in 2028, even though I know it's three years, three years to go. But that was highly coherent, very optimistic, and you've, you've thoroughly cheered me for the day. So let me ask you, it's a government shutdown. Does that mean you're shut down? As a congressman, what is, what are your plans for the rest of the day?

[Ro Khanna]

Well, I'm, we're trying, I've, we have a call with Leader Schumer. We have calls with other colleagues. We're trying to figure out a way to get the government to be back open. And the reality is that most of the Democrats are here. The Republicans are not here. And I'm not saying that in a partisan way. That's just the truth. But we're trying to figure out how do we as a Democratic Party get these health care tax credits extended and reopen the government.

[Joanna Coles]

All right, Ro Khanna, good luck with that, and we will look forward to talking to you again soon.

[Ro Khanna]

Thank you. Thanks so much, Joanna.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, it's very clear that we are going to be hearing from Congressman Khana a lot over the next few months as he continues his demand and presses his demands for the release of all the Epstein files, which I'm sure are spread over all sorts of government departments. But he's clearly very determined to get at the heart of what is at the center of this conspiracy. And why does it so unnerve our president and the people around him and the people running the DOJ and the people running the FBI? Anyway, we'll clearly be hearing a lot from him about other issues, too, not least the tech economy, which really does fall within his congressional district. Now, if you haven't subscribed yet, please do. We are independent media at the Daily Beast, and we really appreciate support. We just, just passed 400,000 subscribers on YouTube, which is fantastic to see. Thank you so much. We love our Daily Beast community. I can't tell you how much we enjoy reading your comments, sharing your comments, calling each other and saying, hey, what do you think about this comment and seeing your reactions and all the way that you engage with us. So thank you for being part of it. And you should definitely check out our membership options. Just, just click the link in the description below. And we've got a lot to offer. Fun extras like loyalty badges and member only polls, exclusive content from inside our newsroom and even special live events with Beast people, including me. It's your backstage pass to become more connected, more engaged, more beast. And a shout out to our top tier Bee Beast members Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hodel, or as Michael said, Hodel and Free dc. And as our first lady would say, fresh off her Navy Hoo Ya cameo. Wherever she may be. Where is she? Be Beast. And thank you to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Erson and our editor, Jesse Millwood.

[Paige Desorbo]

Hey, I'm Paige desorbo and I'm always thinking about underwear.

[Hannah Berner]

I'm Hannah Berner and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage. I like to call them my granny panties.

[Paige Desorbo]

Actually, I never think about underwear. That's the magic of Tommy John.

[Hannah Berner]

Same. They're so light and so comfy and if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.

[Paige Desorbo]

And the bras? Soft, supportive and actually breathable.

[Hannah Berner]

Yes. Lord knows the girls need to breathe. Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery, soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night. That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas.

[Paige Desorbo]

Plus they're so cute because they fit perfectly.

[Hannah Berner]

Put yourself on to Tommy John.

[Paige Desorbo]

Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John. Save 25% for a limited time at tommyjohn.comfort. see site for details.

[Ro Khanna]

ACAST powers the World's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Paige Desorbo]

Are you a fantasy reader looking to cure your book hangover? Then welcome, welcome, welcome to the Fantasy Fangirls Podcast. I'm Lexi, older sister and fantasy lore nerd. And I'm Nicole, younger sister and romantic at heart. And we love exploring these stories, worlds and characters well beyond the last page. Fantasy Fangirls is not your typical book Deep Dive podcast. When we say deep dive, we mean Deep Dive, where every episode covers a stretch of chapters and is structured with five segments to easily follow along. We are currently deep diving Quicksilver by Callie Hart in the lead up to its highly anticipated sequel, Brimstone. We're so excited. We hope you join us as we travel through the quicksilver to dive deep into lit, literary and character analysis, theories, lore, themes and so much more.

[Ro Khanna]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily Beast [e-mail] podcasts if you enjoyed this.

[Paige Desorbo]

Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and subscribe. Support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast.com membership podcast and sign up today.