This Is Why Trump Revels In Incompetence

Summary

Podcast Summary: "This Is Why Trump Revels In Incompetence"

The Daily Beast Podcast | Host: Joanna Coles | Guest: Michael Wolff
Date: February 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and often irreverent episode, host Joanna Coles and journalist Michael Wolff dive into the chaos, spectacle, and underlying intentions of Donald Trump’s administration, especially examining whether the widespread incompetence is by design. They explore Trump’s worldview as an all-or-nothing battle, discuss recent Jeffrey Epstein revelations and their fallout, and dissect the current climate of political, legal, and media intrigue as campaign season heats up.

The episode is rich with behind-the-scenes anecdotes, candid opinions, and sharp wit as Wolff and Coles pick apart the intertwining scandals, legal maneuverings, and psychological gamesmanship at play in American—and international—power circles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Is Trump’s Incompetence a Deliberate Strategy?

• Michael Wolff opens with the thematic question:
  “[...] does the incompetence have a purpose? This is the thematic point of this administration. Over and over and over again. I am going to do it, and I am willing to risk everything to do it...” (00:00)
• Trump engineers existential stakes—if he doesn’t win, everyone opposes him must lose totally, “everybody else must die.” (00:23–00:40)
• The podcast returns to this thread throughout, arguing that Trump’s “incompetence” serves to create confusion, consolidate personal loyalty, and fuel a constant state of battle.

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2. The Ghislaine Maxwell—Epstein Files & Pardons

• Joanna recounts Ghislaine Maxwell’s congressional testimony, focusing on her repeated invocation of the Fifth Amendment (09:57), and recalls personal stories and Maxwell’s psychological games.
• Wolff contextualizes Maxwell’s legal position:
  “She could very much be caught in what’s called a perjury trap. And the one thing she doesn’t want to do is be caught in a perjury trap. But... she is still counting on a pardon.” (15:53)
• The episode covers Trump's complex relationship to Maxwell and Epstein, noting evidence of both denouncement and possible collusion.
• Notable quote about the transactional nature of pardons:
  “Most of the other people just deliver money. But she’s delivered something potentially greater than money, an exoneration for... Epstein, Epstein, Epstein.” (14:48)
• Fallout from the ongoing releases of the Epstein files is discussed, with references to high-profile people unexpectedly caught up in the scandal, and the international span of Epstein’s network.

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3. The Spectacle and Risks of Trump’s Leadership Style

• Trump’s appointments of loyalists and TV personalities—such as Sean Duffy and Pete Hegseth to critical cabinet positions—are mocked as “Fox hosts turned cabinet” (36:39) and illustrative of systemic incompetence.
• Discussion of the El Paso Airport drone incident (33:57–36:39):
  • The pair highlight the administration’s reckless willingness to ignore safety protocols in favor of headline-grabbing action, then lie openly about events when caught.
  • “On the one hand, an absolute bald, audacious willingness to lie about anything. To even lie in the face of knowing that you’re going to be caught lying.” (33:57)
• Incompetence “as a feature, not a bug” is shown as a deliberate extension of Trump’s all-or-nothing worldview.

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4. The Trumpist Approach to Scandal Management

• They analyze Pam Bondi’s combative testimony before oversight committees:
  • Joanna critiques Bondi for “going after the victims of Jeffrey Epstein,” calling the act “very misplaced.” (21:09)
  • Wolff argues Trump values loyal subordinates who attack ruthlessly on his behalf, even if otherwise he dislikes “uppity” or “nasty” women. (23:32)
  • “He likes a very good looking lawyer who is submissive to him, but who is capable then of going into court and blasting everyone who he believes ought to be blasted.” (23:41)
• The willingness to “remake reality and then to insist upon it” is a recurrent motif (40:45).

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5. Epstein Scandal: The “Class” and Its Embarrassments

• The hosts run through the eclectic list of figures tied to Epstein, pointing out the wide spectrum of personalities and questioning how Epstein attracted such people—from Noam Chomsky to Woody Allen to prominent bankers and politicians (28:29–29:07).
• The question is posed:
  • “How did he attract these people across such a wide spectrum?” (28:37)
• Wolff downplays the outright criminality seen thus far in the email files, though acknowledges “a lot of embarrassment, a lot of things that people would not want to be heard to say.” (31:44)

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6. Legal Maneuverings: Wolff v. Melania Trump

• The end of the episode focuses on Michael Wolff’s ongoing lawsuit for answers from Melania Trump, outlining the judge’s options and how the case could set significant precedents for free speech and accountability (45:27–50:56).
• Wolff positions his lawsuit as a potential bulwark against Trumpian attacks on free speech:
  “Its efforts to inhibit expression and free speech should be at the top of the list. And this lawsuit of mine becomes potentially a way to fight back against this, to hold them to account...” (48:48–50:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the core theme:
  Michael Wolff: “The larger question is, does the incompetence have a purpose? This is the thematic point of this administration.” (00:00)
• On Trump's existential approach:
  “He creates this existential structure that he understands that in order for him to succeed, everybody else must be defeated, everybody else must die.” (00:23)
• On Ghislaine Maxwell’s behavior:
  Joanna: “She would sort of scratch her head and then the entire wig would move like a centimeter. Anyway, I recognized the wig.” (07:34)
• On the transactional nature of pardons:
  Michael Wolff: “Most of the other people just deliver money. But she’s delivered something potentially greater than money, an exoneration for… On the issue that has most tenaciously dogged him. Epstein, Epstein, Epstein.” (14:48)
• On the White House’s compulsion to lie:
  Michael Wolff: “...an absolute bald, audacious willingness to lie about anything. To even lie in the face of knowing that you’re going to be caught lying.” (33:57)
• On the past’s fragility:
  Michael Wolff: “The past is very fragile and, you know, and you wipe it away, it doesn’t come back.” (40:03)
• On the administration’s mindset:
  Michael Wolff: “He creates this existential structure that he understands... if he doesn’t succeed, he’s going to die. So this is... a radical, dangerous mortal condition.” (44:09)
• Joanna (hospitalized but witty):
  “Soon I will be limboing on the podcast for people just to show how flexible I am.” (05:53)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00–01:00 – Introduction to theme: Trump's purposeful incompetence
• 02:00–05:31 – Joanna on recovering from surgery; RFK Jr. anecdote
• 06:00–09:49 – Ghislaine Maxwell: wigs, psychological games, and life before Oxford
• 09:57–14:22 – Maxwell's congressional testimony, the Fifth Amendment, and deal-making
• 14:48–19:28 – Fallout from Epstein files, transactional pardons, and global repercussions
• 21:09–25:27 – Pam Bondi’s combative committee performance and Trump’s expectations for his female allies
• 28:29–31:44 – Review of the “Epstein class” and their embarrassment (Chomsky, Allen, Nobel officials)
• 33:57–36:39 – El Paso Airport drone incident & the glorification of chaos
• 36:39–39:20 – Trump administration appointments: Fox News hosts as officials
• 45:27–50:56 – Wolff's lawsuit against Melania Trump, implications for free speech

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Tone and Style

• Conversational, irreverent, and sharply satirical, with a blend of gossip, insight, and serious analysis.
• Both hosts maintain a playful rapport, poking fun at political figures while underscoring the gravity of the themes.
• Frequent asides and storytelling (hospital anecdotes, limericks, first-hand accounts) create an informal but incisive atmosphere.

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Conclusion

This episode provides an incisive, sometimes darkly comic tour inside the logic—and illogic—of Trump’s White House and its orbit. Joanna Coles and Michael Wolff unpack not just recent news, but the psychology and tactics at play, particularly the notion that “incompetence” may, paradoxically, be Trump’s core strategy. Through anecdotes, legal updates, and sharp character studies, they illuminate how power, scandal, and the willingness to rewrite reality keep the Trump circus—and its ripple effects—rolling into the 2026 election year and beyond.

Best listened to with an appreciation for gallows humor and political intrigue.

Transcript

[Michael Wolff]

The larger question is, does the incompetence have a purpose? This is the thematic point of this administration. Over and over and over again. I am going to do it, and I am willing to risk everything to do it, to break the establishment or be broken by it. And that is still the thing, the stakes that are going on here and going on now into this election year. He creates this existential structure that he understands that in order for him to succeed, everybody else must be defeated, everybody else must die. We are in this all or nothing, radical, dangerous, mortal condition.

[Joanna]

Michael.

[Michael Wolff]

Joanna. Joanna.

[Joanna]

I mean, what did I miss?

[Michael Wolff]

And from your sick bed.

[Joanna]

From my sick bed, a glorious robe.

[Michael Wolff]

Do you want to stand up and.

[Joanna]

No, I don't want to step. I do not want to stand up.

[Michael Wolff]

But of course I didn't want to stand. Yes.

[Joanna]

Yes. For. For infrequent visitors to this podcast where we try and figure out what on earth is going on inside Trump's head. I've been off this week because I had my second hip. I was going to say transplant, but it's actually replacement. So actually, I can't stand up right now, and I've had very little sleep, so I may not make a ton of sense, but I will say I had the most bizarre experience, which is I woke up from an anesthetic, and somewhere in the background, and I wasn't sure if it was a radio, if it was a podcast or whatever, I could hear the very familiar sounds of. Of that wobbly voice. Oh, Bobby Kennedy saying, I'm not afraid of a germ. I snorted coke off a toilet seat, and I thought, I must be. I must still be under anesthetic. This cannot be true that our Minister of Health and Human Services would be saying such a thing, but in fact, he did.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, which begs for more details. The toilet seat was where.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Was this. How long ago was this? It may not have been that long ago.

[Joanna]

Interesting. Well, he was.

[Michael Wolff]

And what? And what a minister from the Health and Human Services. What do you think you can catch off a toilet seat? Let's go back to the most fundamental question.

[Joanna]

Well, especially if you're snorting something off it. I mean, Kurt Andersen has that wonderful story of buying Coke from RFK Jr. At Harvard and then having made the purchase, going back to his room and RFK Jr calling and roaring at him because he'd taken his straw and he believed that his particular nasal juices, I guess you would call them nasal fluids, had, with the cocaine, created their own kind of proprietary crystals in the straw, and he wanted them Back.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you know, I have. I can. I can add a slightly other dimension there. When I was traveling with Bobby Kennedy during his uncle's presidential primary campaign. This was in 1980, so we were both young men, but frequently at stops at. And this was in the. This was in the South. This was in Alabama, actually. And we were, we would go around Alabama. I actually have no idea from this, this vantage point what we were, what we were doing there. Did this seem like. Was Alabama then a possible Democratic strong. I don't know. Um, but I do remember we would stop at these roadside places in Alabama, gasoline stations, but they were also kind of sundry stores and snack bars and God, God knows what. But on quite a number of occasions, greater than just one, let's say, he would disappear with the. With the. With a young woman who he might meet. And I see in mind's eye, and I could have embellished this. These comely young woman in the south manning the gas pumps. And he would anyway disappear to wherever you might disappear in a gasoline station. And I've long thought about the lack of sanitary conditions in which you're doing whatever you have to do in the bathroom of a gasoline station.

[Joanna]

Oh, good Lord. Good Lord, no. All I can think of is the whale juices dripping down the car window that his children talked about after he sawed the whale off a head that he ran into on Newport beach or something. Anyway, it was strange thing to wake up to. And as you kindly alerted viewers and listeners to what I was, why I.

[Michael Wolff]

Was absent, was I not supposed to do that?

[Joanna]

No, no, no, it was totally fine that you do it.

[Michael Wolff]

I always said, oh, my God, the hip replacement is out of the bag.

[Joanna]

No, no, no, it's totally fine. But what was so nice was I just got hundreds of comments from people either with their own hip replacement stories or giving me lots of advice about resting or walking or all that stuff. Anyway, I really appreciated what I wanted to say. It gave me great sucker reading the comments when I was sort of lying there feeling a bit sorry for myself, which I have no reason to do because now I've got a second new hip and soon I will be limboing on the podcast for people just to show how flexible I am.

[Michael Wolff]

It's. And I are going to be running together.

[Joanna]

We're never going to be running together, Michael. That's never going to happen. Have you actually ever jogged? Have you. Do you run?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. I've spent most of my adult life running.

[Joanna]

I find that incredibly difficult to believe. Like the roadrunner There we go. Michael Wolf on the move. So the other thing that I missed was Ghislaine Maxwell. Ghislaine Maxwell giving evidence or in fact, not giving evidence. And the first thing I notice, which I'd like to point out, is that in the videos we've seen of her in Camp Bryan, where she was moved after her two days of being interviewed by Todd Blanche, number two, the Justice Department, formerly Trump's personal lawyer, moved from.

[Michael Wolff]

A harsh jail to an easy jail.

[Joanna]

Right. The pictures we've seen of her walking around with her dog and indeed even carrying an umbrella on the days when it was ra have her with a sort of longish bob in the testimony she was giving or not giving. And I'll read what she said in a moment. She had a completely different haircut, which I think is a wig that I have actually seen her wearing. And I've only met Ghislaine once. I met her at a friend's 50th birthday party where she was wearing a wig. And one of the things that she did with this wig is she wears it and then she would sort of slightly move it, so you're kind of peering at her. It's a very creepy attention getting thing to do, and it's very slight. So she would sort of scratch her head and then the entire wig would move like a centimeter. Anyway, I recognized the wig.

[Michael Wolff]

This was a positive thing. You're saying this was a tactical.

[Joanna]

I think it was a psychological game in the way that she did psychological games with people at Oxford. You know, she was well known for her sex games at Headington hall, which is where she grew up.

[Michael Wolff]

Headington Hall.

[Joanna]

Headington Hall. And she would have, you know, Oxford students back there. She eventually got into Oxford, I think the first two times she failed, but she got in on the third attempt, and she would do these parties where she blindfolded the men, asked the women to take their tops off, and the men were supposed to identify the women by their breast shape. And then she would do the reverse for the women where she would apparently blindfold the women. And then the women would spend some time with a member of the male anatomy, and they would try and guess which one it was, which man it was.

[Michael Wolff]

And we know this. Dare I ask how we know this?

[Joanna]

Because I have friends who are at Oxford with her.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay.

[Joanna]

And I have another friend who is at Oxford with her who says that she would often come up to him and just put her hands straight down his pants.

[Michael Wolff]

Did your friend who was at Oxford, this. This was a Woman.

[Joanna]

Well, one guy told me about it, and one woman told me about it. I'm not sure they did participate in them, but they talked to other people who did participate in them. And as one person said to me, peer group pressure when you are a student at Oxford is very high.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, when you were a student at any school.

[Joanna]

Yeah. And I would say peer group pressure continues to be high. It's one of those things that we think dissipates after college, but it really doesn't. Peer group pressure in the office is incredibly high. Peer group pressure, as we've seen from Epstein emails, is very high. But I just wanted to go back to Ghislaine for a moment because I wonder if she is more or less likely to get a pardon. I think she was sitting there fairly optimistic she was going to get a partner.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, let's go back. I mean, you were going to read. Perhaps you should do a reading of her saying nothing.

[Joanna]

Well, thank you for asking. I think I could do that. So this is Speaker One. The time reads 10:14, and the majority's time will begin. Now, Ms. Maxwell, were you a close friend and confidant of Jeffrey Epstein? And Ms. Maxwell goes, I would like to answer your question, but on the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer this question and any related questions. My habeas petition is pending in the Southern District of New York. I therefore invoke my right to silence under the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. constitution. And then she does this again when she's asked, Ms. Maxwell, did you at any time play any role in Jeffrey Epstein's activities involving the recruitment, grooming, or trafficking of young women or girls? I invoke my Fifth Amendment right to silence. So why is she so intent on refusing to speak? Because she invokes the Fifth Amendment, like, 30 times.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, when you just. On a technical point, you can't pick and choose your questions. In other words, if you're going to invoke your Fifth Amendment right, you have to do it for everything.

[Joanna]

Oh, you do. It's just consistent.

[Michael Wolff]

I didn't realize that you can't say, oh, I'll answer that, I'll answer that. And if you do answer one line that can be interpreted as waiving your Fifth Amendment right. So it's just everything you have to do there.

[Joanna]

Okay. Well, she certainly pulled it on this one.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I think that. I mean, I think she was in a difficult legal position, which is that she gave this testimony to Todd Blanche in the fall and. No. In the summer.

[Joanna]

In July. In July, yes.

[Michael Wolff]

And you know, and that was a, that was a setup. And let's, let's recall the context here. The Wall Street Journal published a birthday letter that Donald Trump had written to. Had written to Epstein and which was included in a birthday book prepared for Epstein on his 50th birthday. 50th birthday?

[Joanna]

Yeah, I think so.

[Michael Wolff]

1993. 40th.

[Joanna]

Yeah, because she got the idea. No, it was his 50th, I think, because didn't she get the idea from her parents whose 60th birthday party she.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, but it was 1993, so it would have been his, his actually his 40th birthday.

[Joanna]

Okay. I can't do math at the moment. I haven't had enough sleep.

[Michael Wolff]

But at any rate, at any rate, it was a letter of, you know, a semi salacious letter hinting at dir deeds they might have done together. Highly, if not incriminating, certainly not helpful to Donald Trump. He immediately denied ever writing that letter, although the entire birthday book has come out filled with a hundred or more such letters. And he is the only one who denies writing his. But.

[Joanna]

And Peter Mandelson, the British ambassador to Washington, got fired over his. And we can come on to that more because he's almost brought the entire Labour Party down with him.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. But at any rate, the White House immediately is assumed this letter was leaked by the Maxwell camp lawyer's family. We don't know somewhere it came from Ghislaine Maxwell who was in possession. She had organized this book of. This book of letters. So this makes complete sense that it might have come from her. The White House panics. They send Todd Blanche, the number two in the Justice Department and Donald Trump's former personal lawyer down to Florida to interview Ghislaine Maxwell about. Well, really about what she knows about the Epstein case, but probably more specifically what she knows about Donald Trump and the Epstein case. She. And what she says is, I love Donald Trump. He, I never saw him do anything. He's the most upright person I've ever met. And on and on and on.

[Joanna]

And I think she offered, didn't she offer him congratulations on being elected president?

[Michael Wolff]

Pay on to all things Donald Trump? So, and, and then she's. After that, she's immediately moved to this more comfortable prison. And the assumption is that more good things are coming her way from the Trump White House, most notably a pardon. And considering all of the other people he's pardoned, why not Ghislaine? Especially because she's delivered something for him. Most of the other people just deliver money. But she's delivered something potentially greater than money, an exoneration for. On the. On the issue that has most tenaciously dogged him. Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. So that happens, and then these files are released, and she's called to testify before Congress. Now, that puts her in a difficult position because she doesn't know what Congress has. She doesn't need to probably know what is in these. Nobody knows what. What's in these 3 million. These 3 million new pages. 3 million on top of the last million. So she could very much be caught in what's called a perjury trap. And the one thing she doesn't want to do is be caught in a perjury trap. But the other thing she doesn't want to do is to be caught in a situation where she has to backtrack on what she has already offered given Donald Trump, because she is still counting on a pardon.

[Joanna]

And, of course, one of the things that did come out in the 3 million files was a note that had gone from Donald Trump to the chief of the Palm beach police after Jeffrey Epstein had been arrested the first time. So Donald Trump sort of riding on the back of it, saying that Ghislaine Maxwell is an evil woman. So when he later says, and I think this is recounted in one of your books, oh, she's, you know, she seems like a nice girl. I wish her well. He seems to be having his cake and eating it both ways, too. Cause he knows she's got stuff on him.

[Michael Wolff]

But remember the 2000. So he says that evil remark in 2006. Right, right, right. But that is off the back. Remember, as I've recounted here, Epstein believes they have this fight over this piece of real estate in Palm beach in 2004. Epstein believes. And in that Epstein. Epstein bids $36 million for a house. He takes his Trump, his friend Trump with him to advise him on moving the swimming pool. That old thing. How do we move a swimming pool?

[Joanna]

It's always impacted you that moving the swimming pool.

[Michael Wolff]

And then Trump goes around his back and bids $40 million for the House. Epstein believes Trump doesn't have $40 million. Therefore, he's fronting for someone. Epstein threatens lawsuits, threatens to go to the press, and at which point, Epstein believes, and as he said, Trump dropped a dime on him to the Palm beach police because Trump was fully aware and had been for quite a number of years what was going on at Epstein's house. So therefore, they got into this terrible, terrible fight with each other. So it sounds to me like this 2006 statement is just part of that. They've had this breach in their long friendship. They are now enemies. There's nothing that creates such enemies. Enmity between a certain kind of guy, rich guys, as a fight over real estate. So I read that at this point as more of that, of that, of that campaign, specific campaign that Donald Trump is now engaged in against Jeffrey Epstein.

[Joanna]

So the other thing that Glenn Maxwell has in jail is happily a puppy, because I think they train puppies, perhaps for the blind or for socially anxious people. Anyway, she has a puppy, but she may need that companionship because I can't believe that she's going to be near to getting a pardon. I mean, perhaps she gets a pardon on his way out the door.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, of course, but even that, that's a dream. In jail for 20 years. So if she gets a pardon in three years from now, two years from now, whenever it becomes convenient for Donald Trump or whenever he feels he has cover, she has. Well, that's certainly a big plus for Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Joanna]

A big plus for Ghislaine Maxwell. And of course, the fallout for Epstein continues. Kathy Rummler, the general counsel at Goldman Sachs, has lost her job. The CEO of DP World, which is a company that owns lots of ports around the world and overseas ships coming in and out, has lost his. His job.

[Michael Wolff]

Ports are a very important nexus in the movement of international money and power. And I once went, had dinner with Jeffrey Epstein in his apartment. Apartment in his 20,000 square feet in Paris on the Avenue Foch. Foch. Foch. Avenue Foch, I think a place where nobody lives. Except.

[Joanna]

Except wealthy Americans.

[Michael Wolff]

No, not even wealthy Americans. I think it's mostly Middle Eastern. The entire street is dark all the time because nobody actually lives there. But at any rate, I had dinner there with Jeffrey Epstein and the guy who runs the port of the Djibouti.

[Joanna]

Oh, I remember you telling us this.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, and that must be, I think, the port of Djibouti. All ports are dubious places, but this port, the Port of Djibouti may be the most dubious place in the world. Billions, trillions of dollars goes through these places.

[Joanna]

Yeah, well, the other thing I was hoping to do, and I haven't been able to because I haven't yet left the house, was don a blonde wig and do my impression of Pam Bondi. Losing it. Losing it in front of the oversight committee with a whole row of victims sitting behind her. And she appeared to have entirely lost the plot on who her audience was. I guess her audience, as we're always Saying was audience of one. But this was a. If she'd been going after CEOs, if she'd been going after bankers, it would be one thing, but to go after the victims of Jeffrey Epstein felt very misplaced.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, obviously it was. But if your audience, if, if you have an audience of one, and that person is the President of the United States, is Donald Trump, who just wants to see you attack, attack, attack, then I think she's probably, she comes out on the plus side of this. If, if the plus side is just pleasing this one person, I don't know what happens to any of these people when, when they're the focus of their lives and careers involves pleasing other people who they have all radically displeased.

[Joanna]

Right. Well, it was a fascinating performance. I mean, I wasn't sure. And I wrote a column to this effect because I suddenly felt very hyper after the operation and I needed to hammer something down. But I wrote a brief column for the Daily Beast on whether or not she'd actually miscalculated with Trump because Trump doesn't like nasty women, and she came.

[Michael Wolff]

Across as very nasty in your absence. When I was doing this podcast the other day with Hugh Docherty, the, the.

[Joanna]

Great executive editor of the Daily Beast, I've totally forgot to thank him for holding my place. Thank you, Huey.

[Michael Wolff]

And, and we talked about your column and I disagreed with it.

[Joanna]

Oh, good, good. Well, we can have another fight about it.

[Michael Wolff]

I, I really felt, I mean, you're absolutely right. Trump does not like uppity women. And he does not like women who don't smile, as we all know. And he does not like women who are not submissive except when they are acting on his behalf. Then he really likes a ferocious woman. All the prosecutors that he's appointed, I mean, he likes actually. I mean, his ideal woman is a woman of tourney, a comely, or as he would say, hot. I guess there aren't too many people who say comely anymore, but.

[Joanna]

Right. It's a very 1965 word. Which is his favorite place.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he doesn't say it. I say it. I'm.

[Joanna]

Oh, you say it. Oh, he says hot.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna]

Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

He would look if you said comely to him. He, he would, he would, he would look at you strangely. But, you know, he, he likes a very good looking lawyer who is submissive to him, but who is capable then of going into court and blasting everyone who he believes ought to be blasted. So I think she comes out on top here.

[Joanna]

Oh, do you? Because I thought we ran and the beast a very good piece of. Once again Pam showing her pre organized insults for people which seemed, she was sort of shuffling them around and it was either you were going to be a loser politician or you were a failure. Which I liked. I wondered on his phone calls though when he calls.

[Michael Wolff]

Let me just. Well, maybe you're getting to that. Sorry for that.

[Joanna]

Well, I was just gonna say. Did you just apologize for interrupting me? That's never happened before. You're only doing it cause I'm back having had an operation. It's a moment of sympathy. I'm going to eke out for some time. I wondered on his calls when he's calling to ask how it plays whether or not anybody said oof, she was a bit over the. That wasn't advisable.

[Michael Wolff]

No, he would, they would only do that if he called them and said do you think she was a bit over the top? But what I was going to say is those, those insults, some of those come from him. He calls ahead of time and says I want you to say that that person is, is, you know, is a this or that. You know, say that person is, you know, pick your insult.

[Joanna]

Right. A loser politician to Thomas Massie. Right. So fascinating. Well, it'll be interesting to see what the. I mean the victims must be beside themselves after that. It was just a shocking display and I, I don't know, I mean it was just horrible.

[Michael Wolff]

And a word now from our sponsors.

[Joanna]

Gratefully and Michael Wolf and I are both here inside Trump's head. Meanwhile, Casey Wasserman has put his agency up for sale. Casey Wasserman, who is the chairman, who's the chairman of the 2028 Olympics in LA, who lost two of his clients because he has a big sporting and talent agency lost job.

[Michael Wolff]

Did you know who Casey Wasserman was before this?

[Joanna]

I did because he's a big figure in LA and I know people who know him and obviously Lew Wasserman was his grandfather who started mgm.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, one knows who Lou was. I've never heard. I mean there's a lot of these people in this whole Epstein thing who are suddenly, suddenly prominent figures who I've never heard of, who most people have never heard of. Poor Kathy Rumler for instance.

[Joanna]

Right. Kathy Rummler. I didn't know until. Yes. Well, except that she was Obama's general counsel.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, but nobody knew who, who do you, you know who's, who's Trump's, who's Trump's White House counsel now? Do you know? No. You know there is a formal position in The White House, you know, the White House counsel. But it's an important position. But it's a position that nobody really necessarily knows who, who holds it. And you said whole list of these people, you know, who is this guy? Who is this Tish person? I mean, Steve Tisch. One knows the Tisch's because they're billionaires in New York. And in fact maybe his sister or cousin or somebody is now the police commissioner, Jessica Tisch. But Steve Tisch, who knew again and again this is this interesting thing. And I guess it turns out that these people are all wealthy, but there's some guy, some lefty who goes around, he has a particular notable hairdo, kind of like Donald Trump. And he talking about now the Epstein class, which has become a kind of.

[Joanna]

That's interesting. The Epstein class becomes a whole group of.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, a kind of trope. Although, but, but, but a lot of these people we have never heard of. And and the other thing about the so called Epstein class, which is I think not commented upon enough, is actually how different all these people are. What was, I mean, the real question, or one of the central questions about Jeffrey Epstein is how did he attract these people across such a wide spectrum.

[Joanna]

From the chair of the Nobel Peace Prize to the general counsel of Goldman Sachs. Although she wasn't that when they met. I think she was still Obama's chief counsel when they met, right?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, I think so.

[Joanna]

And then you've got Leon Black and you've got Larry Summers, but then you.

[Michael Wolff]

Have Noam Chomsky, you have Woody Allen.

[Joanna]

Chomsky seems the least likely of. I remember studying his book.

[Michael Wolff]

There's a set of not particularly likely people in this mix. I mean, you can call them a class, but really, you know, there is the Dalai Lama, although the Dalai Lama seems to be protesting that he wasn't really there. But I believe that I saw the Dalai Lama at Jeffrey Epstein's house at a, at a UN Week gathering.

[Joanna]

Well, and it's possible he went without realizing he was at Jeffrey Epstein's house. Sometimes if you're caught up in a sort of moving feast of people at something like the UN General Assembly Week, you might go to a reception at someone's house without knowing who.

[Michael Wolff]

It is possible. But then I remember Jeffrey Epstein talking about a dinner with, or that either he had or was organizing with. Get this, the Dalai Lama, Noam Chomsky and Woody Allen. We could do a Broadway play. That's a hit play.

[Joanna]

Yeah, that is a hit play. And also then you have Deepak Chopra and you've got Peter Attia, who's become an unlikely spokesperson for free speech at cbs.

[Michael Wolff]

No. And then you have the whole technology community.

[Joanna]

Right, right. And the finance community. And then Les Wexner. I mean, what is he doing in the middle of all this? Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And then you have the international community. Possibly, possibly Putin, the guy who runs the port of Djibouti.

[Joanna]

No, this is Peter Mandelson. Peter Mandelson. Peter Mandelson, who was the Business Minister and called Jeffrey Epstein when he knew that Gordon Brown, the then Prime Minister, would be stepping down the next day. And then we discover that Peter Mandelson called Gordon Brown the British Prime Minister. Smellie. I mean, these strange, juvenile nicknames they had for each other is so strange. And then, of course, you're in the middle of it. Writing it all down.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, writing it all down. No, I mean, I was in the middle of it because, I mean, for. I mean, certainly one reason to have a front. A front. A front seat at this most extraordinary story, possibly the most extraordinary story of our time. And again, this thing. How were all of these people brought together by one man, and how did.

[Joanna]

He persuade them to do what appears to be, in some of their cases, illegal things and also very foolish things?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I'm not sure that we've seen. I mean, that's one of the things. In these. 3 million million. In these. In this, you know, 3 million pages. A lot of embarrassment, A lot of things that people would not want to be heard to say. To say, but not. Not a lot, at least not transparently. A lot of. Of obviously illegal behavior. We don't see that it may be there. People are going through this now with a. Still, with a fine tooth comb. And these are 3 million pages, so we don't exactly know, but most of what we've seen is not illegal. Yes. Embarrassing, yes. Foolish, yes.

[Joanna]

Bad judgment. A lot of bad judgment we're witnessing.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. I mean, bad judgment in hindsight, but also, of course, prompting the question, what is in most people's email? I mean, that's the other. The thing, the nature of the medium. To see. To see. All of these conversations which were, which were clearly not designed not. Not to be. Not to be seen, were written off the cuff, were written to please him. Were written. I mean, we, we all know the context in which emails that we would rather not be ex. Have exposed are. Are. Are written.

[Joanna]

The emails I find the most disturbing are the ones from Jess Taylor, who was at J.P. morgan, and then Jeffrey Epstein helped him get a job as CEO of Barclays bank, where they, you know, Jess Taylor said, oh, I don't have any emails with Jeffrey Epstein. And then miraculously, 1,200 emails surfaced in which there were various conversations about Snow White and, you know, will there be another Snow White? Will I see Snow White again? How Snow White? Which is difficult to interpret, interpret other than as I'm assuming, some sort of young virgin. It's also grim, but there is serious stuff going on at the same time. I mean, the other thing that I kind of woke up to was the closing of El Paso Airport.

[Michael Wolff]

I think this is an extraordinary story. I think this is a story that's not gonna go away. I think it's a story that is, that is, gets to the heart of the entire Trump administration, which is on the one hand, an absolute bald, audacious willingness to lie about anything. To even lie in the face of knowing that you're going to be caught lying.

[Joanna]

Lying in the face of video evidence that we see is not what you're talking.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's just, it's. I can't, I find it almost inexpressible in its, in, in the transparent view into this administration and into what these people are thinking. And the other aspect of it is their rank, utter, astounding incompetence. So this whole thing about the Defense Department giving this anti laser drone fighter to Homeland Security, who then gives it to customs and the customs and border people in the face of the FAA saying, don't do this, this is dangerous.

[Joanna]

And this is to fight the cartels, right? That is some kind of laser, theoretically, who knows?

[Michael Wolff]

It also sounds like little boys with a weapon. We want it. We want it. Who's going to do it? Who's going to fire it? We want to fire it. And the FAA saying, no, there are airplanes up there, this is dangerous. And the Defense, Homeland, customs and border people then utterly ignoring the faa, taking this weapon, firing it anyway, not at a drone, it turns out, but at a balloon. The FAA freaking out and then closing the airspace for 10 days. Then the White House ordering, then the White House saying, no, it was a drone invasion from the cartels, which will. And that lie will be exploded within minutes. And then ordering the FAA to reopen the airports, and we still don't know if this is safe. In whose hand the anti laser drone is now, now lies. Who's holding it? When will it be fired again? Will it be fired again?

[Joanna]

And this pictures, you know, two old Fox hosts together. Sean Duffy in charge of transport and Pete Hegseth in charge of the Department of Defense. Slash war. Two people that may have been fine as weekend co hosts but have no business running a government department. No business. Sean Duffy, whose loudest proclamation has been that we should all dress up when we fly. Right.

[Michael Wolff]

But they're on opposite sides now, which is that other interesting thing which it seems logical that we could look forward to. And perhaps it is happening now of the people inside of the Trump administration whose whole point in life is merely to be loyal to Donald Trump, now find themselves at odds with each other. That's when things really start to fall apart. And once more, a commercial break.

[Joanna]

The Trump author Michael Wolff and I are rambling around inside Trump's head. And meanwhile, we've got Don Lemon, who again, they've lied about why he was arrested.

[Michael Wolff]

No, another good, good example. We have these lies. We have the lies in Minneapolis, bald lies and lies that were almost immediately proved to be lies. Then Don Lemon gets arrested. Everybody in the White House is cheering, make lemons from lemonade. Or whatever they were saying. And then that now, there's now video evidence of that. No, they lied about that. That's going to be. So that will be thrown out. And all they will have accomplished is to, is to elevate Don Lemon in his new social media life.

[Joanna]

Right, right. And then we've got, I mean, the. I was lying in my hospital bed going over all the things that have not been resolved. So the East Wing. Not been resolved. Kennedy Center. Is it ever going to come back?

[Michael Wolff]

No. You know, there's new plans that were just released on the East Wing.

[Joanna]

Oh, really?

[Michael Wolff]

Which you should look at. And it's, I mean, the, so the East Wing will overshadow in every respect. The White House itself will block the White House from view. It is as bad as it could possibly be, as vulgar as it could possibly be, as inappropriate as it could possibly be, as, you know, dumbass as it could possibly be.

[Joanna]

And I wonder if the next president, depending on who she or he is, takes it down.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, you can't. I mean, that's, that's what Donald Trump is counts on here. You can't. You build these things. Donald Trump has built a lot of rotten buildings in, in, in New York that, that, that are still there, decaying. Nobody takes them down, you know, and, and, and again, you know, it's like that, Kenneth, the Kennedy center thing, as, as we've, we've discussed, you know, you remake these things, you tear them down, you remake it, and it's just, you can't Remember what was there before?

[Joanna]

What was there before?

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, the past is very fragile and, you know, and you wipe it away, it doesn't come back.

[Joanna]

Right. I was also remembering his story that his uncle taught the Unabomber, which just came out of nowhere. I mean, you know, and he said, oh, yeah, my uncle, very smart. I used to teach the universe what's going on inside Trump's head that he comes up with these stories. Now, I understand exaggerating when you're a teenager or even maybe when you're in your 20s and you're trying to impress someone, but when you're the President of the United States, A, you shouldn't have to try and impress anybody, and B, you're going to be caught out. And the sort of brazenness of it.

[Michael Wolff]

The terrible birthday parade again. But this is, this is the point, and it's the serious point, and it's the point that nobody can quite get their heads around this willingness to remake reality and then to insist upon it and not in any way to be caught out having done it. You know, the election, the election was stolen from him. Well, we know that it wasn't stolen from him. We know he didn't win. Everybody knows, literally everybody, but possibly this one person knows that he lost the 2020 election. But, no, I mean, and it's either this remarkable ability to stay in character or he's a crazy man. I mean, he has departed from reality.

[Joanna]

Yeah. And Tulsi Gabbard is supporting him in that. And then we had the paving over of the roads.

[Michael Wolff]

But that's one of the interesting things. She is not. She knows. I mean, let's.

[Joanna]

She knows that they lost the election, but she's going through the motions.

[Michael Wolff]

All of these people who say this, they know.

[Joanna]

They're perfectly well aware, which makes it even worse. Which makes it even worse. And it's all his failed investigations against James Comey, against Tish James. I mean, it's just the incompetence is staggering.

[Michael Wolff]

It's staggering without question. But the larger question is, does the incompetence have a purpose? So it is incompetent to, say, prosecute these enemies when, with. With any, with any reasonable thought, thought you would, you would understand that these, that these prosecutions are not going to go forward, they are going to be thrown out in court. But what is the effect anyway of even insisting that this administration and then taking the steps to prosecute these people? Well, obviously, fear, and in this other sense of the world divides between Donald Trump and the people who are not on his side. So he makes this, this is the thematic point of this administration over and over and over again. And this willingness, this all or nothing sense, I am going to do it and I am willing to risk everything to do it. To be the guy who comes out to, to break the establishment or be broken by it. And that is still the thing. The stakes that are going on here and going on now into this election year, I mean, this is again very real. He creates this existential structure that he understands that in order for him to succeed, everybody else must be defeated, everybody else must die. And he understands how high the stakes are because if he doesn't succeed, he's going to die. So this is, this is. I mean, we are in this all or nothing. A radical, dangerous mortal condition.

[Joanna]

A radical, dangerous mortal condition. Okay, well, on that note, I think we need to turn to our in house limerick ster. Garfried. Garfried, you kept me sane when I was reading several of your limericks. The lawsuit. This is the first limerick. A reporter named Woolf caused a stir suing Melania, bold, as it were. With Epstein's dark past and questions amassed, amassed. He's demanding sworn answers from her. Very good, I thought. And then there's another one which is on the same theme from someone called Helms Park. 2675. Once was a model called Nous who hid the root to her spouse. But a wolf called Michael ended the cycle with lawsuits of cat and mouse. Very good. Thank you. Very good. All right, so what's the latest? Has anything happened since you spoke to Hughie?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, now we're just so, papers are filed. We are now waiting for. And there's. I actually had a long discussion with my lawyers yesterday and I confess that sometimes in these discussions I lose the procedural plot of what happens next. And this happens in order for that to happen and then this happens and then there's a ruling, I think. But it was. It, it, it to jump beyond that. It is. We're at the point where the judge in federal court has to make two decisions, two crucial decisions, whether to dismiss this whole case, which they've asked her to do. And, and, and, and just this, this judge is a Trump appointed judge. We have no reason to believe that she is not in any way anything other than fair minded, but she is a Trump appointed judge. So she will do that. She can dismiss this. I don't know how, but that would be her prerogative. And then we would go to the 2nd Circuit and appeal that. But the other question is that she can send this case, send this case to Florida, where they are on stronger. They believe that their law is more on their side, and they probably believe they have more juice with the federal bench in Florida. And then there is actually a third thing that she can just remand the case to where it began, which is in state court in New York. And, oh, and then there is another thing, which she could. Because we are saying, and we have. We have. We have laid this out very specifically, here is all the evidence that indicates that Melania Trump is a citizen of New York. She may have a driver's license in Florida, she may vote in Florida, but she spends her time in New York. All her connections are in New York. Or as they say, her heart is very clearly in New York, as is her body. But if the judge does not accept that, on the face of what we've presented, then we have asked for the judge to approve discovery, which is then that we can go through all of the documents of Melania Trump's life to show where actually she spends her time and has invested her heart. So that's what we are waiting to hear. I don't get any clear sense of how long this will take, but I suppose the next number of weeks we will have some kind of initial resolution.

[Joanna]

And I did see that Huey had referenced the piece in Puck talking about how actually this could turn out to be an incredibly important case. And it's been simmering away on the back burner, but suddenly people are beginning to pay attention to something really different.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, totally. I mean, it is, remember? And, you know, there's another thing that happened. You know, I think yesterday there were reports that the federal government is asking the social media platforms to identify the accounts that are anti ice. I mean, let's just think about this for a second. This is. This is a kind of brazen, you know, we don't give a fuck. Effort to go to. In. To inhibit free speech. Not only inhibit free speech, but to identify the people who are speaking and then to go after them. So we are, among all of the other things going on with this administration, Its efforts to inhibit expression and free speech should be at the top of the list. And this lawsuit of mine becomes potentially a way to fight back against this, to hold them to account, to use the law to say, no, no, no, no, no, you can't. There are laws against this kind of intimidation.

[Joanna]

Well, and also, it's the thing that all these Silicon Valley guys say, which is that, therefore the freedom of speech is sacrilege. Nothing must come. Nothing must interrupt that. And then, of course, it feels very different when they're presented with a demand from the Trump administration. Yeah, it'd be very interesting to see.

[Michael Wolff]

And it also becomes, you know, I mean, again, in this Trump way of turning things on, on, you know, of creating this inverted reality. Yes, we, we think that social media, social media platforms should not, not regulate speech. And that now gives us the wherewithal to see the people who are saying the things that we don't like, and we're going to get them right.

[Joanna]

All right. Oh, goodness me. All right. Well, Michael, I think I need to retire back to bed, actually. That's quite a lot of stimulation for one morning. We will be back on Tuesday, of course. And thank you to thank you to everybody who left comments. Please continue to leave comments about anything we've spoken about today, particularly if you know what you could catch off a toilet seat if you're snorting cocaine or anything else that you happen to be snorting that our Health and Human Services secretary has done. So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Ryan Murray, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, Neil Rosenhauer.

[Michael Wolff]

Else Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily beast [e-mail] podcasts.

[Joanna]

If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the Beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast.com membership podcast and sign up today.