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- [00:00]
Ryan Reynolds
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. You know one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's Unlimited Wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [00:21]
Mint Mobile / Advertisement Voice
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- [01:01]
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- [01:31]
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- [02:33]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Marjorie Taylor Greene, the congresswoman from Georgia, warned that more women were going to leave Congress. Is this going to be a stampede? Because they're all thinking, I'm not going to get any further under Donald Trump's party. The people who are squabbling for the future of MAGA are very unappealing. And there is money to be made. Look at Tucker Carlson, look at the women on the View. Maybe I can go to Fox News.
- [03:00]
Michael Wolff
It's also this thing that happens with anyone in a relationship with Donald Trump. It all comes a cropper 100% of the time. No one comes out of a relationship with Donald Trump and saying great, that great guy, Joanna.
- [03:20]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Michael, you've changed our order.
- [03:24]
Michael Wolff
We like to change it up.
- [03:25]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Michael Wolff, chronicler of four books on Donald Trump, two books on Rupert Murdoch.
- [03:31]
Michael Wolff
And then an assortment of other books.
- [03:34]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
And I think this is episode 50, possibly of Inside Trump's Head. Why don't you remind people why we started it?
- [03:42]
Michael Wolff
You know, I don't like the way the media covers Trump. I think it's always been off. It's off because it treats him as, as political reporters treat all presidents, that he is a politician. His issue is politics. He comes out of politics. Politics is a process of cause and effect. And that's the way they approach Donald Trump, even though for all of them, this has turned out to be unsuccessful. And I think they would largely agree that it's unsuccessful or that it certainly does not explain Donald Trump. And I think the issue is that they look from the outside instead of trying to, trying to see this from the inside, trying to see this from this utterly unique person who has, for reasons, inexplicable reasons, become the president of the United States. It is a government of one, a government which entirely depends on what Trump is thinking or feeling when he gets up in the morning. So and it lurches this way and that way, or careens or whatever the word for not staying on track you want to use. But in order to understand this, in order to get any kind of sense of where this comes from and where it's going, you have to be able to think from Donald Trump's point of view. And that's what we are trying to do.
- [05:19]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, we launched this podcast in August We've spent the last four months trying to get inside his head using our various tools. And obviously you've been talking to people regularly who are in the White House and trying to manage his weather system. So.
- [05:35]
Michael Wolff
And I've spent 10 years doing this. I mean, I am the person in Donald Trump's head. I mean, I think there are a few of us probably who have found, found ourselves locked in this strange space, but I'm certainly one of them.
- [05:52]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, then you seem to have pulled me in with you, which is not a place I expected to be. But we have finally the first installment of the Epstein files, which were released Yesterday at about 4:30. Classic PR maneuver that you drop something on a Friday afternoon when you hope nobody's paying attention. And the Friday before the holidays couldn't be a better day to try and bury something. But it seems very clear that they are starting with what seems like an attack on Bill Clinton.
- [06:26]
Michael Wolff
Well, they're also trying to bury the fact that they actually are not releasing the Epstein files. They are actually in violation of the law to release all. And then they went out. Todd Blanche, the number two in the Justice Department and the President, formally the President's lawyer and the lawyer who went to Florida to, To interview, interview Ghislaine Maxwell, said, explained yesterday that actually there was just too much material. They couldn't get through it all. Sort of a homework excuse, just too much going on.
- [07:04]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
It's pre Christmas. We don't have time. We're buying presents.
- [07:07]
Michael Wolff
Right. And of course they are redacting so much of this that it is a lot of work. They have to go through everything, look for the name Donald Trump or look for the names that Donald Trump wants to protect and then they have to redact them. And that takes weeks and weeks and weeks and. And he said we're going to release these basically when we can. So.
- [07:30]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
So we got a meager stash yesterday. Nevertheless, I think it was still 23,000 photos and, and files, emails, letters, whatever. Most prominent seem to be photos of Bill Clinton in a swimming pool, in a hot tub, wearing a very unfortunate sort of silver. How would describe it? Silver smock. It was not, not flattering. I would be protesting the release of that photo as a crime against fashion. Never, never mind anything else. And then Bill Clinton, interestingly came out with a statement. I would have thought he would just ignore this. You know, we're used to ex presidents just retreating into a dignified silence when attacked like this, especially by Donald Trump. But in fact he came out with a statement saying Whoa. This was 20 years ago. I dropped my friendship with Jeffrey Epstein before we knew how bad his crimes were, before he was first arrested for solicitation of prostitution of a minor. And this is about Donald Trump. This is not about me. What did you think of that?
- [08:41]
Michael Wolff
Well, I actually wouldn't have done it if I were Bill Clinton, but he didn't ask. But let's understand the pattern here or the method here. Whenever Donald Trump has gotten into. In trouble for girls, which has been on quite a few occasions now, what he does is says, is point to Bill Clinton. So Donald Trump, first thing, Donald Trump is a creature of habit where he does what works, what has worked for him in the past. And so in this situation, it's the same thing. Not Bill Clinton. Don't talk about me. Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton did it. When after Grab them by the pussy gate happened. The. Really the way they, one of the key ways they got around that was then there was a debate. There was a Hillary Clinton debate shortly after that, a debate with Hillary shortly after that. And they filled the front rows of the debate theater on with women who had accused Clinton of whatever, of sexual abuse or, I mean, the whole, the whole, the whole range of Clinton names who I used to know and now I can't remember one of them. But, but that was one of those things that immediately, immediately changed the subject. I mean, I think it's probably scared Hillary for one thing. So the Democrats became muted on this, what everyone thought was a fatal issue, grabbed them by the pussy. So again, why not do it? And I am sure, without any question that this was done strategically. We have to release these things. What are we going to do? We're in trouble here. This is a problem. And then it was obvious, well, what do we do? We blame it on Bill Clinton.
- [10:47]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, and Prince Andrew took another beating too, with the photos and Ghislaine Maxwell appearing to be commando in various photos.
- [10:57]
Michael Wolff
What do we mean, commando?
- [10:58]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, we mean there are various photos of Ghislaine Maxwell, one of which is in a sports car where she appears to have nothing under the robe that she's wearing. They've redacted. They've redacted it.
- [11:09]
Michael Wolff
I missed that one.
- [11:11]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, I can send it to you, but I think you can imagine and you might not want that, but I think Ghislaine Maxwell, Prince Andrew and Bill Clinton are not going to have a great holiday this year because it just continues to haunt them. It's the story that won't go away. And we've got a lot to talk about. Not, you know, not excluding Trump's mental health and his appearance at rallies. Again, I mean, he's both in campaigning mode. You said earlier this week that this is now about the midterms, that the speech he gave in the House was about the midterms. So we can come on to that. But one of the things I just.
- [11:44]
Michael Wolff
And mostly, and mostly just to frame this, and I think we should continue from, mostly everything from here on in for the next year will be about the midterms. So we've had, we've had the first year, which was about what he wanted to do. In other words, that's his, that's his window to make his mark. Now it, now he has to defend it effectively.
- [12:10]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Right. Well, my only point, because we're going to come onto the rallies and we're going to come on to the fact we've seen a lot of him this week, was that he suddenly raised Hillary again as the specter, as if she was still somehow on his mind, and said, she's a nasty woman. I wouldn't want to go home to her in the evenings. I mean, what a strange thing to bring up in a rally in 2025 when he's won the election and Hillary is very much politically in the rearview mirror. Anyway, the other news this week is that Elise Stefanik and a senator from Wyoming, Cynthia Loomis, are both pulling out. Cynthia Loomis said she'd had enough. She didn't have it in her to do another six years. And of course, of course, Elise Stefanik, who is perhaps the better.
- [13:03]
Michael Wolff
I, I think the wyoming senator is 70 or 71. So related. That's. But Elise Stefanik. Stefanik or Stefanik.
- [13:12]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, I think it depends what mood you're in.
- [13:15]
Michael Wolff
I think it might be Stefanik, but. Yeah, but that's the much more dramatic. She's 41. She's, you know, a central star of the new Trump Republican Party, and she.
- [13:27]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Was the youngest woman to get elected to Congress.
- [13:29]
Michael Wolff
Yes. And she has now bagged it. I mean, dramatically bagged it. Like, like, fuck you bagged it.
- [13:37]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Yeah, well, she was running for governor of New York. Right. Trump appeared not to endorse her for it, said it was too early.
- [13:46]
Michael Wolff
Well, go. I think you have to go. From the beginning of this, she has been abject in her loyalty to, to Donald Trump.
- [13:53]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Yeah. She got elected as a moderate. Let's start there.
- [13:56]
Michael Wolff
Yes.
- [13:58]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
And she went to Harvard.
- [13:59]
Michael Wolff
She was a new, A New York. She, a New York Republican. A New York Republican is a particular Kind of Republican, what they used to call, in the days when people remembered who this was, a Rockefeller Republican, because Rockefeller was the governor of New York for a long period of time and a Republican and what would be now considered quite a liberal. But so that was, that was. Elise Stefanik was that kind of Republican. But then she got elected, Trump got elected, and she never looked back. She signed on to MAGA and to Trump like no one's business. She's incredibly young. So she got on the. She earned the presidency. I mean, the president jumped onto the Elise Stefanik career bandwagon. And I think that her first move was to become replace Liz Cheney as theessentially the number three in the House Republican hierarchy. Pushed Liz Cheney out, took that, that's that spot, a key leadership position. I mean, it's like a spotlight on her. This person is going to be a Republican star. This person is a potential future Republican president. And then after that, she had this, these hearings which were extraordinary. I mean, you know, usual congressional hearings which go on interminably and constantly to very little note, but sometimes they become a forum for really making you famous. And in this moment, it did. She confronted the presidents of, as I recall, Harvard, MIT, and the University of Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania. And she called them out on their, effectively, the tolerance on their campuses for antisemitism. And they were helpless in front of her. She was, she mowed them down. They were legalistic, she was emotional. And it cost all three of them, certainly Harvardthe president of Harvard and the president of the University of Pennsylvania their jobs. Did the MIT presidentthese were all women, by the way, did the MIT president keep her job positive?
- [16:49]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
I think the MIT president may have kept her job, but what was also.
- [16:52]
Michael Wolff
Anyway, this was the in earthquake in academia. She had her name on it.
- [17:01]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
And also what was notable was that Elise Stefanik or Stefanik had also been to Harvard. So there was the added frisson of her turning against her alma mater. And she, as you said, was very emotional, did a powerful job. And it turned out that all three of these women university presidents had been advised by the same law company. Law firm, law company, law firm, whatever. You get my point. So Elise Stefanik then was also talked about being a potentially a vice presidential candidate in the run up to 2024. She was talked about as being the UN ambassador, which is what she wanted.
- [17:44]
Michael Wolff
No, no, no, no, she was not talked about. She was, she was promised. She was nominated for that position. That was correct. They had, they had made this deal with her, the administration. Listen, we're we're, we want you on the, on our side. You're great, your Trump loves you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is what you're, this is what you're gonna get.
- [18:10]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Right? This is your politician.
- [18:12]
Michael Wolff
Yes, every politician. What do I get? This is what you get. And remember, this is actually the UN Ambassador is honestly not much of a job, but because Nikki Haley had that job, it was suddenly seen as a potential presidential jumping off starting point. So, yes, she wanted that job. It also, by the way, gets you out of Washington. Actually, the, the virtues of the job are it gets you out of Washington and it gets you into proximity with major donors in New York.
- [18:52]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Right. And also you get to schmooze with other world leaders. So you move up the totem pole in terms of internationally and I think you get a very nice property.
- [19:02]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, all of that.
- [19:04]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
And then in the center of Manhattan, which.
- [19:07]
Michael Wolff
Okay, so then, yes, so she's planned, she's making that her, she's going to get that job. Everything is, is, she announces she's not run. She's, she's out of Congress. It's, it's, this is public. She is going to get this job. There will be no reason for her not to be confirmed. She's there. Then at the last moment, Trump says, no, no, you can't have this job. You know, and the excuse is the Republican margins in Congress are too tight. We need you, we need you there. So her world falls apart. Literally. Her whole career trajectory where she's going to live, the plans she's made around her family, everything, Nothing, you're back in Congress, you're nothing.
- [20:05]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Right. So promises, promises, unmet. And then of course, who does get the job but a man who's been utterly incompetent in his job. Mike Walsh, National Security Adviser, who manages to add the editor of the Atlantic to a WhatsApp, or a signal, I should say a signal chain with plans for, well, for classified material and war plans.
- [20:36]
Michael Wolff
And then to boot, she does not get along with Mike Johnson, Right. Who is the speaker, the Republican speaker of the House, who has a reputation for treating women terribly regards women as, as, you know, as people who should not be in Congress, I think maybe who shouldn't have the vote, I don't know.
- [21:00]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, he's very religious in an old fashioned way, isn't he? And he believes that the man is the head of the family and the wife must be the supplicant. Not unlike Charlie Kirk and Erica Kirk, I believe.
- [21:09]
Michael Wolff
So that's an unhappy relationship. Now she has Several unhappy relationships. She has an unhappy relationship with the, with the White House, with Trump and the White House. Also just Susie Wiles and Elise Stefanik are, there's no love lost there. And I think that comes out of, you know, there may be something else, but, but I think it also comes out jockeying, jockeying for power within the Republican Party. And who has, who has the ear of Donald Trump? So who's closer to Donald Trump? I mean, that's the key currency in Republican politics. And if you are perceived as having more of the ear than the other person, then you're potentially vulnerable. And Susie Wiles is among the people who are, who are said to have taken Elise Stefanik out.
- [22:27]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Marjorie Taylor Greene, the congresswoman from Georgia, warned that more women were going to leave Congress. I think everybody thought that she was exaggerating it. But now I can't help wondering, is this going to be a stampede? Because they're all thinking, I'm not going to get any further under Donald Trump's party. The people who are squabbling for the future of MAGA are very unappealing. And there is money to be made. Look at Tucker Carlson, look at the women on the View. Maybe I can go to Fox News.
- [23:00]
Michael Wolff
Well, I think that that's, it's, it's also this, this thing that happens with anyone in a relationship with Donald Trump, it all comes a cropper. 100% of the time. No one comes out of a relationship with Donald Trump and saying, great, that great guy. Quite the opposite. And in fact, you know, Elise Stefanik, so she decides, okay, I'm going, you know, I don't want to be in Congress. I've done this. I was going to, I was, I had my way out of, didn't work out, but I really don't want to stay in Congress. Mike Johnson, forget about it. So I will run for governor of New York, which is a totally plausible thing to do. I mean, that's a, that's an uphill battle in a Democratic state.
- [23:48]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
But there's been moderate Republican governors of.
- [23:52]
Michael Wolff
New York there, there have been, but not for quite some time, like 20 years.
- [23:59]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
But George Kitaki was the last one, right?
- [24:02]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. And I believe that that would have been 20 years ago, certainly a long time ago. And, and, and I think it would have been, I mean, it would have, she would most likely have not become, not been elected governor, but having run a good, good race, that would certainly position her within the Republican Party. It would be a step up from being one of, I was just going to say the number of Congress people, but I Forget the number 460 odd. So, so that's what she was going to do. She's already raised a lot of money for this. And then the, a Republican from Long island announces that he is going to step into the primary. Now she is, she is well ahead of him, probably would have, would have won a battle against him. But then Trump says he's not going to endorse, he's going to be neutral. They're both good. And at that point in her long downhill course of her relationship with Donald Trump, I think it just came to end. That was just the fuck you moment. In a formal fuck you, I am dropping out of the gubernatorial race. I may, and this will be the interesting thing, drop out of Congress before the end of my term. I am going home and I want nothing more to do with you.
- [25:48]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
And do you thinki mean, I do think that a lot of these people think there is much more. Well, clearly there's much more money to be made in the world of freewheeling new media, as we've seen. But do you think she wants to come back to politics or do you think she's done for good?
- [26:06]
Michael Wolff
No, they all want to come back. They all want to be the President, United States. So, so how to triangulate that? What is your, what is your path there? You know, the path, the path through Congress is a pretty difficult path to become the President of the United States. So you have to go somewhere else to the Senate. But the Senate in New York is a difficult, it's a difficult place. And so she's got to figure this out. She had to get out of Congress. That was her. Just think of her as at a maximum point on the ambition scale. I remember Steve Bannon once described Nikki Haley to me as ambitious as Lucifer.
- [27:00]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
And I think, say that about ambitious women, though they never say that about men.
- [27:08]
Michael Wolff
Well, I think it's because it's a given that all men are Lucifer.
- [27:13]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
So nicely turned. Nicely turned. But I'm sure it's depressing, the patronizing attitude of.
- [27:20]
Michael Wolff
I don't, yeah, sure. But I, I think that's, that's a leap. You don't have to go there. It's depressing being a congressperson. You know, it's a, you know, it's a pretty low rent job. You don't make much money. You have a, you know, a very, you know, a relatively small staff. Your job, the, the bulk of your job is having to deal with constituent complaints. I mean, you're like, you know, Like a, you're just like a bureaucrat and you have no hope of, of. There's no clear, clear path to advance beyond that. And also, you have to spend so much time groveling for money and you have to run every two years. Terrible, terrible, terrible job. So she had to find a way out of that, and she thought she deserved a way out of it. You know, she had done absolutely what you're supposed to do for the president of, of your, the, the President of the United States, the head of your party. You want a reward.
- [28:26]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, and neither MTG or Elise Stefanik got a reward, and they had both. Well, in Elise's case in particular, had sucked up beyond what you assume she felt comfortable doing, but was doing it.
- [28:41]
Michael Wolff
Anyway, you know, and, and I think, and I think this goes to this larger, this larger ecosystem of loyalty to Donald Trump that he demands absolute loyalty, but the problem of demanding absolute loyalty is that people come to hate you. And so they are, in fact, the opposite of loyal. And certainly in 2020, when he ran for, ran for reelection, that came to haunt him an enormous amount of bad blood among Republicans. And I think that we will now potentially see this in terms of the midterms.
- [29:29]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Right. Well, we've seen a lot of the president this week, from kicking off with his statement about Rob Reiner to his what appears to have been a hasty, hastily put together speech on Wednesday. Addressing the nation from behind the podium, Peggy Noonan, in her column in the Wall Street Journal, said it looked as if he'd just been walking past the podium and suddenly seized it and decided to deliver a speech as opposed to it being considered or in fact, sitting behind the Resolute desk. And then he's been not at one, but two rallies this week as if he sort of both incumbent and battling the incumbent. I mean, talking about Joe Biden as if Joe Biden was still very much a thing, referring, as I mentioned earlier, to Hillary. So there's a lot going on. And then during one of the rallies, he got fixated in a very peculiar and frankly, cringe way on his wife's panties and how they were, how she got very irritated because the feds had gone through them looking for classified documents when they were raiding Mar A Lago at one point after he'd left the White House the first time.
- [30:44]
Michael Wolff
But he was also obsessed with the way she folded her panties.
- [30:49]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Yeah, I can't even hear the word panties. It's so peculiar. I just can't. And him, that word coming out of his mouth. Mouth made me very uncomfortable Indeed. But it, but he's, he's been talking.
- [31:01]
Michael Wolff
What do you call, what do you call them then?
- [31:04]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, in England we would call them knickers, but at least knickers has a kind of comic twist to them. Seems to have a kind of veneration for them. And I think of them as things that little.
- [31:17]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, it's kind of fetishistic and infantilizing.
- [31:20]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Yeah, there's a sort of Lolita quality to them which just feels inappropriate for a president to, to say it's a rally. And interestingly the camera panned at one point and you could see a couple of women sort of going like this because they obviously felt cringe too. Anyway, what do you think of his state of mind? We're inside his head right now. Is it a good place to be?
- [31:42]
Michael Wolff
Well, I, I was busier than normal. Yeah. No, and I was kept thinking when he talk about the folding, the folding scene seems so fetishistic. I mean it really. And then I thought of Melania father, does she fold her own? He seemed to imply that she folded her own. She's very organized. And then he seemed to credit this to being from eastern Europe, which might be possible. Maybe they're big folders in Eastern Europe.
- [32:11]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, maybe we'll see more of her folding her under wear in the Melania documentary due out at the end. Due out in theaters globally, theaters internationally at the end of January. That's right. Worldwide release of Melania.
- [32:26]
Michael Wolff
And it's time a word from our sponsors.
- [32:31]
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- [33:00]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [33:20]
Michael Wolff
Yeah.
- [33:21]
Ryan Reynolds
Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch a front.
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- [35:04]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
And we are back, Michael Wolf and me, inside Trump's head. We talked about the very peculiar statement he put out after Rob Reiner, after Rob Reiner's death where he blamed Rob Reiner's Trump deranged.
- [35:21]
Michael Wolff
Well, that's not even, it was, it was not just peculiar, it was deranged.
- [35:26]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
It was direct.
- [35:27]
Michael Wolff
It was, nobody would do that. That's not going to be good for, for certainly it's not going to be good for Donald Trump. It didn't even make sense. It's just, you know, it's, it's a problem with, with, you know, with reflex control and you know, so it's back to that, that, you know, Susie Wiles said in her, in her interview with Vanity Fair that it was like dealing with an alcoholic and, and she got a lot of, this was like, everybody went, whoa. Now that's a common, it's a common usage in the White House and it's a usage that he almost seems proud of. And, and I think the rationale is he doesn't drink. Everybody knows he doesn't drink any and he really doesn't drink. So therefore, therefore it's, it's, it's not.
- [36:25]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
It'S, it's not an alcoholic personality.
- [36:28]
Michael Wolff
It's a compliment to being, to being compared to an alcoholic. I don't, I don't quite get the, the logic inside Trump's head on that, but she, but, but Susie Wiles might have just as well said it's like dealing with, with a, a dementia patient. I mean, it is the same thing. And because he doesn't drink, it is probably closer to that. I mean he, in, in which he has, he has the, his, the aspects of his uninhibited, the uninhibited aspects of his personality and that might be like, it's like anger or self pity or his other, other. Yeah, Racism for some people become increasingly more uninhibited and that seems to be what's going on. He opens his mouth and, and you go, this is a problem.
- [37:34]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Yeah. Any, anybody that had a relative who'd posted that would be appalled and, and tell them to delete it and take them to one side and say we're taking the password away to your phone. You cannot behave like this. Similar at Charlie Kirk's memorial service at that huge stadium in Arizona where Charlie Kirk's widow, Erica Kirk got up and said, you know, I forgive you. And then Donald Trump gets up and talks about how he hates his enemies. How he hates his enemies. It's just peculiar at this point stage. And no one around him seems to be saying, enough already. You sound, well, that's, you sound deranged.
- [38:11]
Michael Wolff
Yes, but that's, but that's true. No one around them does say that. I mean we have, in American politics which, with two back to back octogenarian presidents, we have, we have a problem. And the problem is there is no way to diagnose the President. I mean, clearly, clearly, clearly Joe Biden had enormous cognitive difficulties and obvious. And everyone around him closed ranks to protect him until he could no longer be protected. So there is no mechanism for an objective world to diagnose someone. There's no willingness on the part of people around the President to step forward with an honest assessment. And this is not different now from Donald Trump. There is no way for us to say, okay, he has experiencing cognitive issues of an alarming variety. And no one around him is going to say that. Although Susie Wiles in acknowledging the alcoholic thing was curious. But here we are now. We're also in a time in which, and this also is somewhat, somewhat new, where so many Americans have firsthand experience with cognitive decline. So many Americans have older family members who have experienced this. I certainly have. And many, many, many people I know also have. It's a kind of inevitable thing. You know, I think that we're in this curious moment and it's different from, from, from, certainly from past decades in which so many people in this country have personal experience with, with, with cognitive decline. If you have family members of a certain age, the overwhelming likelihood is you're going to have seen this. Certainly I, I have had this experience. Many, many, many, many people, almost everybody I know of a certain age has this experience. You know, old, old children with old parents that you're going to, you're going to see this, you're going to see things that now remind you of Joe Biden, but equally remind you of Donald Trump. And you know, and I think we're all kind of, what do we do about this?
- [40:56]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, and I think one of the interesting side effects, you mentioned him sounding increasingly deranged and disinhibited. But the other thing that often comes with some kind of dementia, whatever stage it's at, is grandiosity. And I'm reminded of a friend whose grandmother used to constantly order until Harrods got wise to it. From Harrods Food hall endless platters of food which would arrive solemnly in a Harrods van and be unpacked for their modest home. And the grab grandmother had created this huge party that she was going to have which was obviously wish fulfillment. And I can't help thinking that Trump's determination to slap his name on every single Peace Institute and now the Kennedy center is part of that grandiosity, which is no longer attached to real life.
- [41:50]
Michael Wolff
No, and, and remember there, there are these kinds of themes that continue, that continue. You know, know, there was a very well known person in, in, in New York who, who I knew who, who always repeated the same, the same jokes. It was constant. It was like you would, and, and then along with other symptoms, it's, it's, it became clear, clear that he was repeating these, these, these same jokes. Not, not, not because that's what he always did, but because he was sinking into dementia. And actually this person is now in this, I don't know, fifth or six years of, of, of being gone. So you, that, that line at which, at which your, these aspects of your cross over into a fearsomely exaggerated form of those same things, it's unclear. And I think the people sitting around Trump, and I have, the people I know in the White House, I've kind of pressed on this. And they sort of describe, well, it's, you know, Trump 2.0 is just more Trump or Trump doubling down on being Trump, which in its own way is alarming, or it's a way to rationalize. And the Biden people rationalized Joe Biden's incapacities, and I think it's now quite possible that the Trump people are also rationalizing. I mean, they see this. It's very clear to them, everyone in the White House, when I, when I, when I called them after the, you know, after the Rob Reiner statement, I mean, nobody was saying, oh, you, you, you go. You go, guy. Everybody was like, yeah, well, one of.
- [44:00]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Them said to, to you, he's teetering, right? And presumably you teeter on an edge. But it seems he's already tipped over that edge with the, with. And his speech this week, which appeared to be twice his usual pace, galloping through a sort of, you know, an angry Santa speech, telling us we should be more grateful he came in, he had a mess to clear up, the economy was better than we thought it was, and that we should just listen to him and believe him.
- [44:32]
Michael Wolff
So the nature of this, this was an address, an address to the nation, Right. You know, and it was, I mean, it was that kind of thing. You, you get caught. You get caught. You think this is, this is going to be consequential. Well, it was not consequential. It was the opposite of consequential. It was like, what?
- [44:53]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Right. Well, it was sort of diminishing, and it was him railing, and again, no one around him is able to stop him. And actually, I thought the depressing thing about the Susie Wiles interview, the 11 interviews that Chris Whipple did for Vanity Fair with her, was that she seems utterly uninterested in trying to stop Trump being Trump. She said that the point of the alcoholic's personality is when someone's been drinking, their personality grows and they become, you know, a cartoon.
- [45:23]
Michael Wolff
Well, you know, yeah, I mean, that's absolutely, absolutely, absolutely true. And I don't think her mandate is to stop Trump from being Trump. Quite the opposite. And she knows that. But in some kind of contextual defense, the people in the Biden administration did not seem. I mean, I mean, they did not. They. In, in hindsight, it certainly does not seem that they regarded themselves as having a higher responsibility.
- [45:49]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Right. But they're not mutually excited. Exclusive. Right. And Joe Biden wasn't slapping his name on every building. The Kennedy family have come out this week swinging.
- [45:58]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, but that's. But again, it's a different. That's a different. I mean, the symptoms here and there are no, no clear. No. No one. One pattern of dementia.
- [46:09]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Right.
- [46:10]
Michael Wolff
You know, I mean, I mean, Biden was not slapping his name on buildings because he had forgotten his name.
- [46:18]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
I don't think that. Well. And actually, I think what's really interesting, and it sounds like the Amagan's at noon horn is it.
- [46:27]
Michael Wolff
Is the amadense at noon horn.
- [46:29]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Okay. Because we recorded this.
- [46:31]
Michael Wolff
Set your clock by it.
- [46:33]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Okay. It's either that or it's a very noisy truck. But it's the Amagan. Sit. And what is it for again, your. Your small.
- [46:41]
Michael Wolff
It's literally just to set your clock. It's noon.
- [46:43]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Okay. It's to set your clock and it's to reassure everybody that everything's all right. Like that episode in the Simpsons where Homer Simpson keeps an alarm and the alarm goes off all the time to reassure people that everything is fine. Anyway, I mean, what's interesting about both presidents is neither of them seem to work very hard. I mean, I think Joe Biden sort of got cracking at 11:30 and clocked off at about 3. And Donald Trump doesn't seem to get into the office much before noon and as you say, is talking all the time.
- [47:17]
Michael Wolff
No. And, you know, I thought, I Hope when I'm 80, I can. I can catch a break.
- [47:23]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
I think you'd be having more young children when you're 80. Every now and then we catch glimpses of the, of your children's voices. And, you know, who knows, you may have an entirely new family at the age of 80. Michael, you continue to surprise us. You continue to surprise us.
- [47:40]
Michael Wolff
But let's go to, you know, because speaking of surprise, the Trump Kennedy center thing is a surprise. I mean, it's extraordinary. It is another one of those. What is he thinking?
- [47:53]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Right.
- [47:54]
Michael Wolff
And of course, the Kennedy family came out and. And they've all. All expressed their horror at this, which. And it is. It is kind of horrorful. Horrifying.
- [48:05]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
It's completely horrifying. It's completely.
- [48:07]
Michael Wolff
For the President of the United States to put his own name on anything is weird.
- [48:14]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, it's also a memorial, which is usually something for people who have died.
- [48:19]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. No. Is it going to be.
- [48:20]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Congress is supposed to approve it. And, of course, Congress is nowhere to be found here.
- [48:25]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, yeah. And what, what now will it be that the Trump Lincoln Memorial. Memorial.
- [48:30]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Very possibly, very possibly.
- [48:32]
Michael Wolff
I mean, it might be the United States.
- [48:35]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
It could be the Trump United States. He's already renamed the Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf of America. He could easily rename the country. Who is going to stop him? That's what's so bizarre. Nobody is going to stop.
- [48:47]
Michael Wolff
Okay? So, and let's, let's spread this out in, into, into symptoms. We have a whole set of symptoms here. Now this, this idea of a president's mental health, we don't, we don't really have a context for this when in fact the context should be. Well, this is a paramount issue. I mean, obviously, obviously, if the, if the President is unwell, we should, we should, we should discuss that. We should. It actually is an issue probably of far greater importance than any other political issue. And once again, gratefully, a word from our sponsors.
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- [52:06]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
And Michael and I are back inside. What else? Donald Trump's head. It couldn't be of more importance. And as we know, happily, he's aced three cognitive tests, one of which asked him to identify a giraffe out of a giraffe, a hippo and an elephant, I think.
- [52:29]
Michael Wolff
And then he bragged about this, which is yet another symptom, obviously, a heightened sensitivity to this issue and a defensiveness about it, which is. And again, anyone who has experience with this, when you say to your family member, you know, are there issues? There are never. No, no.
- [52:52]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Give me the keys away. Give me the keys to the car. Well, I've always said to you, would you have had Joe Biden driving your child to school? Absolutely not. Would you have Donald Trump driving your child to school? Absolutely not.
- [53:03]
Michael Wolff
And nor would you want me, as we've noted before, to drive.
- [53:07]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
But that's because you don't have a driving license. I happily will drive everybody's children to school. Anyway, we know who wants the job. Marco Rubio is limbering up for the job. He gave a two hour press conference this week and he did it in both Spanish and English and he was nice to the press. He didn't call them piggy, he didn't call them rude.
- [53:31]
Michael Wolff
Yes, with relative equipoise. A.
- [53:40]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
That's a very fancy word for. For a Saturday.
- [53:44]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. You know, Marco Rubio is demonstrated, which few people in this administration do, demonstrate that he is a political professional.
- [53:54]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, and as you pointed out, Susie Wiles used to work for him. She was on his team. And you saw the hand of Susie Wiles at this press conference.
- [54:04]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. No, I mean, Susie Wiles has been Susie Wiles, who has spent her career as a, as a top Republican political consultant in Florida, worked for Marco Rubio. Marco Rubio is her client and in some way, I think continues to be her. Her client. And, and J.D. vance is not her client.
- [54:32]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, and worth pointing out that she described them both to Chris Whipple in Vanity Fair and she said JD Vance is 180 degree turn on Donald Trump from calling him the new Hitler in 2016 to being his vice president now was purely political. It was just a political maneuver. And Marco Rubio, by contrast, has had to look deep into his soul. Not quite sure how deep Marco Rubio's soul is to be able to persuade himself that it would be worthwhile working for Donald Trump.
- [55:06]
Michael Wolff
I would say that a measure for Susie Wiles of her success in this job as the President's chief of staff is at least one measure is whether or not Marco Rubio becomes the 2028 Republican nominee.
- [55:24]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
So interesting. Well, he clearly is limbering up for it. Two hour press conference in and out of Spanish and English and utterly polite to the press.
- [55:35]
Michael Wolff
Impressive in traditional terms. Now, the problem for him is that impressive in traditional terms does not in this day and age seem to win elections.
- [55:45]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Right. Although let's hope that Trump isn't an anomaly. Is an anomaly. So the other thing that's going on which is interesting is the MAGA infighting post Charlie Kirk. So we had the Turning Point rally in Arizona on Thursday where Ben Shapiro got into it with Tucker Carlson.
- [56:06]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, I mean, it was a. Yeah, I was throwing down the red flags. I mean, seldom do you see actually such, such. I'm just trying to think of the, you know, it's open hostility, but it's just, it is really drawing the line. You're, I mean, essentially Ben Shapiro was saying all of you people are illegitimate or worse.
- [56:39]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Right. And he went after Megyn Kelly, he went after Candace Owens, he went after Tucker Carlson. I've got a bit which I wanted to read actually, which is from what he said at his speech at Turning Point. The conservative moment is also in danger from charlatans who claim to speak in the name of principle, but actually traffic in conspiracy, but actually traffic in conspiracy and dishonesty, who offer nothing but bile and despair, who seek to undermine fundamental principles of conservatism by championing, by championing innovation and grievance. These people are frauds, they are grifters and they do not deserve your time.
- [57:20]
Michael Wolff
Before we address the specific content of there, it's worth calling attention, I think, to the Fact that right wingers are actually great speakers, whereas the Democrats completely milquetoast. You can't listen to them for, for more than a few seconds. You just snooze. That is a incredibly well constructed attack on his enemies of which is kind of, kind of riveting to listen to. And I'll point out that when, when Tucker Carlson came on after this, he also was rivet, riveting to listen to. So the right wing has, has figured out that, you know, that fundamental political virtue, how to give a speech that people listen to.
- [58:19]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Right. The, the power of really well written speech and a good sharp, fast delivery. Although Ben Shapiro is a fast deliverer. Tucker Carlson lesser but nevertheless scrambling.
- [58:33]
Michael Wolff
I just, I disagree. I think Tucker is, is machine gun lips. No, I mean he's a, it's a, it's a, it's a slower, more conversational, but it is as, as compelling. He's good at it.
- [58:49]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
He's got a high pitched voice. Well, actually so does Ben Shapiro. They both have slightly high pitched voices.
- [58:56]
Michael Wolff
Just compare them, let's say to say Chuck Schumer.
- [59:03]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
All right. I'm not going to compare them to Chuck Schumer. I can't even remember what Chuck Schumer sounds like at this point.
- [59:11]
Michael Wolff
Exactly.
- [59:12]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Anyway, what did become clear is there's no, there's no clear person to step up yet for Charlie Kirk as the leader of Turning Point. I know that his wife has, has stepped into the CEO shoes, but it remains unclear if she can maintain his power over young men. I can't help thinking it's going to have to be a man that does that. I don't see them following a woman.
- [59:35]
Michael Wolff
Well, I'm not sure really that that is entirely the issue. I mean, Turning Point USA is just a, you know, it's an organization that makes money from charging people to come to its conferences. That's what it does. The real point is, is the larger MAGA point, who, who is the person that comes to represent the future of this movement? Does this movement itself have a future or was it just another Donald Trump anomaly? I mean, I mean these, these are the questions. And, and you know, the, the other interesting thing is that it's, is that MAGA Turning Point MAGA is so related to the media figures that articulate its reason for being. And so will we see a movement of those, of those figures into actually running for office?
- [60:36]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Right. And will we see, see Marjorie Taylor Greene and Elise Stefanik and possibly Cynthia Loomis confront the microphone? Will they start their own media companies knowing that there is money there to be had. That's my theory on why they're all leaving. Doesn't mean they can't come back into politics. But I think I'm told Marjorie Taylor Greene wants to assist. Seat on the View. That would be her fantasy.
- [61:08]
Michael Wolff
That has been many people's fantasies, not perhaps yours. I think that's a bet. You should get a seat on the View.
- [61:16]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
I've already got a seat sitting opposite you inside Trump's head. That's enough for any sane person. And I'm not yet displaying symptoms of dementia. Perhaps I am, and I can't see them because that's, of course, the tragedy of dementia that you often don't know it's happening to. Although I will say I interviewed Iris Murdoch once, the great British novelist, arguably one of the best novelists of the 20th century, and she was entering the Twilight Zone and she kept saying, I'm falling, I'm falling. I can't find the words. It was a remarkable interview.
- [61:57]
Michael Wolff
And remind me, what happened after that, did she.
- [62:01]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, she got full blown dementia and then she died. But she was an interesting person to talk to because, of course, like Donald Trump, there's a very public baseline. She'd been a writer, so you could see her incredible facility with words at her peak and then her panic as they slipped away from.
- [62:19]
Michael Wolff
No. And, and I think, I mean, again, this is relevant to everyone, but then it has a different kind of relevance. When is the President of the United States? And the question of how do you diagnose the president is more and more, I think it becomes a central question.
- [62:42]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
All right, well, on that note, Michael, we should go and do our Christmas shopping, if you've got any left to do. I imagine you've done it all.
- [62:52]
Michael Wolff
No, no, no. Well, I've slightly begun.
- [62:59]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
You've slightly begun. All right, well, in that case, you must hurry because it's the last Saturday before Christmas. We will be back, however, on Tuesday, we'll be back inside Trump's head trying to figure out what will have happened to him over the next few days. But you're right, it becomes the central issue of his presidency and also for the people around him. How do they manage it? If you have been. Thank you for joining us. Please leave your comments and leave us your experiences of, of handling family members who you see slip into dementia, and your recommendations for people around Donald Trump into how they should deal with his. His verbosity and his grandiosity. Michael, I remember you wrote a very poignant, very moving piece about your mother who suffered from dementia in New York magazine, in fact, I think it was called I Love My Mother But I Wish She Were Dead.
- [63:55]
Michael Wolff
No, you're, you're right, you're. I mean, you remember and, and it was, I mean it's still a piece that I hear. I mean, must be woman. You know, it's over almost 50, 15 years old, but I still regularly, you know, often several times a week, hear from people who find that, that peace and it speaks to them because everybody goes through this experience.
- [64:23]
Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Well, for anybody going through this experience now write and tell us your experiences. You can email us or you can drop us a comment on YouTube. Feel free to subscribe to the podcast. We're independent media, so we appreciate your support. And Michael, what else do we have to say?
- [64:40]
Michael Wolff
And we should thank our top level members and they are Sandra Clark methinks Travel with Carl Andrew Beaver the Capinator Harry Clark Dawn McCarthy Daniel dog lover Mr. Greiner Fulvia Orlando Herbie Andrew Melor Las Conde Bonzo Val Love Francesco Andrea Hodel Bocock D.C. sharon Shipley, Connie Rutherford Karen White Heidi Riley thank you all. Thank you Devin, Anna and Jesse. Without whom.
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Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
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Michael Wolff
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Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Yeah, I totally do.
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Michael Wolff
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Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
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Michael Wolff
Wait, we're going on tour?
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Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
We're delivering and setting up customers phones so it's easier to upgrade.
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Michael Wolff
Oh you're definitely a groupie.
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Michael Wolff
Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily beast podcast@thedailybeast.com podcasts.
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Mint Mobile / Advertisement Voice
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Host (likely a journalist or commentator)
Subscribing is the best way to find.
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Mint Mobile / Advertisement Voice
Feed the Beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast.com membership podcast and sign up today.