Trump’s People Have Plot Against the Voters: Wolff

Summary

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The Daily Beast Podcast

Episode: Trump’s People Have Plot Against the Voters: Wolff

Date: November 9, 2025
Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Michael Wolff

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Episode Overview

In this sharply observant and darkly humorous episode, Joanna Coles and Michael Wolff take a deep dive into the current state of Trump’s White House and the mounting sense of existential peril among Trump’s inner circle as the 2026 election looms. Drawing on Wolff’s insider conversations and the latest political developments, the episode examines Team Trump’s strategies—legal and otherwise—to hold onto power, with incisive detours into Trump’s personality, Steve Bannon’s influence, Melania’s latest moves, and broader themes of civic engagement and institutional malaise.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Threats Facing Trump’s Inner Circle (02:00 - 04:19, 24:10 - 25:30, 30:38 - 33:30)

• Wolff relays a conversation with a nervous White House figure, painting a picture of real despair and alarm among Trump’s people after recent election results.
  • “If they lose the election, if they lose in 2026, they are finished. Finished politically. But you know so much else.” (Michael Wolff, 02:00)
• Trump’s inability and unwillingness to “course correct” is seen as a looming disaster.
  • “Trump… cannot course correct. Cannot course correct. Will not course correct. Doesn't even, I think, understand the concept…” (Michael Wolff, 02:56)
• The sense that the White House is bracing for the possibility of losing both Houses—an “existential” threat:
  • “The unraveling may have begun… they are considering that is a moment.” (Michael Wolff, 24:10)
• Wolff predicts the next election will be “an election of lawyers” as Trump’s team pursues aggressive legal maneuvers and redistricting.

2. Steve Bannon’s Rhetoric & Influence (05:01 - 07:16)

• Quotes Bannon’s apocalyptic warning:
  • “I will tell you right now, as God is my witness, if we lose the midterms and we lose 20,28, some in this room are going to prison, myself included.” (Quoting Steve Bannon, 05:07)
  • “We have to counter it with more action, more intense action, more urgency. We’re burning daylight.”
• Wolff notes Bannon’s penchant for drama and the effect his warnings have on White House anxiety.
• Bannon’s language is described as “vivid, dramatic, apocalyptic turns.” (Michael Wolff, 07:23)

3. Trump’s Personality and Behavior (08:59 - 09:51, 13:27 - 13:53)

• A behind-the-scenes look at Trump’s intolerance for weakness or illness:
  • “Trump really... Hate sick people.” (Michael Wolff, 09:05)
• Vivid anecdote about Trump appearing irritated, waiting for the cameras during a medical incident at a press conference.
• Discussion of the rumor mill around Trump and weight-loss drugs, and his penchant for blunt nicknaming.
  • “‘He could be remembered as the guy who did the fat drugs... that was also a kind of perfect Trump touch to call them the fat drugs. And it just kind of cuts through everything.’” (Michael Wolff, 10:56)
  • Slogan joke: “Make America thin again.” (Michael Wolff, 13:27)

4. The Fat Drugs & GLP1s Saga (09:51 - 13:53)

• Explores the political and social impact if Trump succeeds in lowering the cost of GLP1 drugs (weight loss drugs), potentially his most positive legacy.
• Amusing digression on Trump staffers (press secretary Stephen Cheung) and their struggles with weight.

5. Melania Trump: Awards, Lawsuits & Image (14:34 - 17:20, 40:18 - 45:15)

• Satirical coverage of Melania receiving Fox Nation’s “Patriot of the Year” award and her ambiguous speech.
  • “To what convention is she referring? Perhaps a convention that a first lady lives with her husband, the president, in the White House.” (Michael Wolff, 15:40)
• Updates on Michael Wolff’s lawsuit against Melania and his commitment to “pay it forward” if he wins.
• Discussion about Melania’s rumored documentary, “Melania: The Movie,” directed by Brett Ratner.

6. Elections, Voter Suppression, and Legal Strategies (31:38 - 34:10)

• Discussion of the Trump team’s primary strategy: legal tactics, gerrymandering, and restricting voting access, rather than persuading voters.
  • “We’re not talking about politics anymore. We’re talking about how you harness the voting system to your advantage. …it has probably never gone on as aggressively as it is now.” (Michael Wolff, 32:56)

7. Institutional Malaise and Public Engagement (19:03 - 21:30)

• Wolff notes a year of “institutional folding”—media, courts, and political checks have failed.
• However, he sees hope in the increased engagement of ordinary people and financial support for legal challenges.

8. Biden, Newsom, and Shifting ‘Ground’ (22:34 - 23:48)

• Commentary on Governor Newsom’s political prominence and Biden/Trump’s public fatigue.

9. Project 2025 and Internal White House Dynamics (34:10 - 36:09)

• Discussion on Project 2025: What can Trump’s team accomplish before time might run out?
• Wolff explains how staffers resort to “slow walking” Trump on initiatives, sometimes distracting him to avoid worse outcomes.
• Stephen Miller’s role as an ideological, policy-driven enabler.

10. Foreign Policy Gambits & Venezuela (36:19 - 37:04)

• Speculation on Trump’s potential foreign distractions: “He could very well go to war in Venezuela.”

11. The Epstein Files (39:21 - 39:46)

• Expectation that “the Epstein files” will resurface as a threat to Trump, possibly delivering “the most pain.”

12. “Ask Melania” and Listener Questions (39:46 - 42:39)

• Listener Q&A about Melania’s legal defense, relationship with Putin, her language skills, and her state of mind.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On White House panic:

  • “They’re up against it, and they may have known that before, but this became crystal clear on Tuesday night.” (Michael Wolff, 02:56)

• On Bannon's style:

  • “Bannon is always on the phone with people…delivering this dire warning, and I think it has some effect. People within the White House are rightly worry, or at least beginning to worry.” (Michael Wolff, 05:43-06:35)

• On Trump’s intolerance for vulnerability:

  • “He hates people with any kind of physical vulnerability and to display that and to take attention from him is even worse.” (Michael Wolff, 09:07)

• On electoral tactics:

  • “We’re not talking about politics anymore. We’re talking about how you harness the voting system to your advantage.” (Michael Wolff, 32:56)

• On institutional collapse:

  • “A year…just shocking in every respect. And nobody has done anything. And actually, it's been characterized by the institutions that we expect to do something kind of folding.” (Michael Wolff, 19:16)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• White House Panic after Election Results – 02:00 - 04:19
• Bannon’s Dire Warnings – 05:01 - 07:16
• Trump & The GLP-1 ‘Fat Drug’ Phenomenon – 09:51 - 13:53
• Satire on Melania’s Award & Persona – 14:34 - 17:20
• Public Engagement & Institutional Failures – 19:03 - 21:30
• Election Legal Strategies – 31:38 - 33:30
• Project 2025 and Internal Management – 34:10 - 36:09
• Venezuela War Talk – 36:19 - 37:04
• Epstein Files as Looming Threat – 39:21 - 39:46
• “Ask Melania” Listener Q&A – 39:46 - 42:39

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Overall Tone

The episode is sharply satirical, brisk, and unflinchingly critical—often bleak, occasionally riotous, but consistently insightful. Joanna and Michael combine serious concern about the erosion of democratic checks with pointed wit, exposing not just the political maneuvering but also the absurdist theater emerging from the White House.

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Summary for the Uninitiated

This episode of The Daily Beast Podcast is an essential listen for anyone seeking to understand the mood—and actual strategies—inside Trump’s orbit as the 2026 midterms approach. Drawing on privileged White House intel and decades of observing Trumpworld, Michael Wolff foresees escalating legal warfare, intensified voter suppression, and an overriding sense of alarm. The hosts deftly blend insider analysis with wry, at times hilarious, commentary on everything from Steve Bannon’s melodrama to Melania’s enigmatic public persona, all underpinned by genuine concern for the future of American democracy.

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Transcript

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[Michael Wolff]

If they lose the election, if they lose in 2026, they are finished. Finished politically. But you know so much else. And I had a conversation yesterday with a White House person and this person expressed alarm and I think reflected the alarm that went through the White House on, on Tuesday night. They're up against their candidate. Their reason for being cannot course correct. They're heading into disaster.

[Joanna]

Michael Joanna, what are you hearing?

[Michael Wolff]

I think that this is an interesting moment which we should, we should put a pin in it really. For one thing, it begins this. We've just come through one year, this horrendous and shattering year and now we enter this other year which will be, which is really going to be all about the midterms and it's officially kind of begins now. And I had A conversation yesterday with a White House person, and that was revealing. I mean, this person expressed alarm and I think reflected the alarm that went through the White House on Tuesday night. They're up against it, and they may have known that before, but this became crystal clear on Tuesday night. And it's not just that that this election was bad for them, but the understanding that Trump, their standard bearer, their candidate, their reason for being, cannot course correct. Cannot course correct. Will not course correct. Doesn't even, I think, understand the concept of a course correction. So therefore, what they do, they're heading into disaster. That's what this election said. This is not working.

[Joanna]

And does Donald Trump understand even that he needs to course correct, or is he just saying, I wasn't on the ballot?

[Michael Wolff]

So no one, no one would say that to him. No one say, you've been wrong. I mean, just even imagine the conversation, it's impossible. You know, you've been wrong. What you've done hasn't been working. There's no context in which you can have that conversation. Actually, you have to have the exact opposite conversation.

[Joanna]

Tuesday.

[Michael Wolff]

Tuesday night. The results of Tuesday night prove that everything you've done is. Is. Is working.

[Joanna]

So, Michael, I wanted to get your thoughts on what Steve Bannon is saying.

[Michael Wolff]

And I will tell you right now, as God is my witness, if we lose the midterms and we lose 20, 28, some in this room are going to prison, myself included. They're not going to stop. They are getting more and more and more radical, and we have to counter that. And what do we have to counter it with? We have to counter it with more action, more intense action, more urgency. We're burning daylight.

[Joanna]

We're burning daylight. What does that mean?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, what does burning daylight mean?

[Joanna]

I don't know. It's a good line.

[Michael Wolff]

God is his witness. I don't know. But I love to hear whatever Steve says. It's always vivid. And this is probably part of what my conversation yesterday with a White House person was reflecting this. And I mean, one of the things about Bannon, I mean, the president doesn't speak to him, and no one can speak to the president about what Bannon says, but Bannon is always on the phone with people in whoever he can get on the phone in the White House. And I think that he is probably delivering this dire warning, and I think it has some effect. People are. People within the White House are rightly worry, or at least beginning to worry. Yes.

[Joanna]

What does he mean that he might be going to jail? Why would he be going to Prison.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he's always on the verge of going to prison. I mean, he has been to prison.

[Joanna]

I remember he went to jail in Connecticut.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, no. Yeah. In. In his world, of course. And remember his world, you know, the Bannon world is a. Is a world of high drama at all times.

[Joanna]

So.

[Michael Wolff]

So it is always. The Democrats are going to come crashing through our doors and take us away. But, you know, I think that that is a part of that is probably true. And of course, a part of it is that these people deserve to be taken away.

[Joanna]

In another world, he would have been one of those preachers selling an elixir off the back of a wagon.

[Michael Wolff]

Certainly, he. Certainly he sort of wasted.

[Joanna]

He's a man out of his time in many ways.

[Michael Wolff]

And it's. And, you know, when you sit with him, which I have done hours and hours and hours and one hour. Do I regret. You want to buy whatever he's selling? I mean, it's so much fun to listen to him. And I think he finds it's. For him, it's so much fun to be able to talk in these vivid, dramatic, apocalyptic turns.

[Joanna]

Well, Burning Daylight does sound like a movie that Brett Ratner should turn his attention to. Perhaps when he's finished the Melania documentary, which we can come onto a bit later. Let's come to what was a remarkable moment yesterday in the White House. They're a press conference for the announcement of the reduction of the cost of GLP1 drugs. When a man, one assumes, who's on a GLP1 drug, appears to faint in the office. Dr. Oz. Thank God. Actually a doctor. He doesn't just play one on television. He used to be, I think, head of cardiac surgery at Columbia, rushes to help the guy, and Trump just stands there looking irritated, as if the center of attention is no longer on him and waiting for the cameras to swivel back. Meanwhile, there is literally a man in the background with his legs in the air. Rfk, your old friend, we can come back to him. Has run off stage. We have no idea where he's gone. But if he's gone to get a doctor. There is a doctor in the house. Dr. Oz. It's chaos. I mean, it couldn't be a better scene from his reality show.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, Trump really. I mean, it's a. It's a. It's a theme, and it has always been a theme. Hate sick people.

[Joanna]

He hates sick people.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. I mean, he. I mean, he hates people with any kind of physical vulnerability and. And to display that and to take attention from him is even, is even worse. So yeah, he would be, he would be irritated to say the least, that at something like that.

[Joanna]

Yeah. And you could see that he was, I mean he just stood that there is literally a man not even five yards from him with his legs up in the air. Everybody's giving him their attention and Donald is just standing there still as if for the camera, looking, I think a little gray. I thought he looked, I don't know if it's the new hair color, but his face looked a bit gray. He seemed fatigued this week.

[Michael Wolff]

We ought to call this out. I think this could be the signature accomplishment of the Trump administration. And I'm not being facetious here, this is to have, to have lowered these drugs which people have been talking about for some time and not accomplishing. But if he truly accomplishes this, this is, you know, a kind of, kind of game changing for the health system, for health care costs, for health care policy. To create, to make these drugs affordable to, and with the prospect of literally, of that creating a revolution in the health of people who are overweight, which is most Americans, is kind of amazing. I think Trump, Trump could be, when all of this is said and done and it all passes, he could be remembered as the, you know, as the guy who did the fat drugs. And I want to say that the, the other thing is that that was also a kind of, a kind of perfect Trump touch to call them the fat drugs. And it just, and it just kind of cuts through everything. Everybody understands what that means. It's not the Democrats with their blah, blah and you don't know what they're talking about. Everybody knows fat drugs. Got it.

[Joanna]

Well, and his own press spokesperson, Stephen Chung, who's called us both actually lying bags of shit. And I think he's also called both of us blithering idiots actually is now apparently on a GLP1 and Stephen, you have said was £400 and during the campaign at one point was fainting it was so hot and had to be carried out.

[Michael Wolff]

He went down in Union Station. Yeah, no, no, I mean Stephen is, is who calls us these things. But, but, but again, he is actually a nice guy and someone I've always liked, so I forgive him. But, but he's super fat and you know, and this has been a career problem for him. Why is he not the press secretary? Because the idea of Trump having a 400 pound press secretary doesn't, just doesn't even exist. That possibility doesn't exist in nature and he's unhealthy. So, yeah, more power to him. And we can watch it. We can see the. I mean, this is. Can be one of the greatest advertisements for. For fat drugs to watch Stephen Cheung melt away.

[Joanna]

So I think the figure is 64% of Americans are overweight. I think it's 36% are obese. You're right that this could be Trump's seminal impact if he helps America lose weight, because then you impact the entire health system. And is there also a sense in which the country. And I say this not facetiously, but with the idea of him being a TV producer, that he then has a much more attractive America.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. Make America thin again.

[Joanna]

Make America beautiful again.

[Michael Wolff]

He can have that slogan. You know, interesting, though, there's part of the. Throughout the campaign, the chatter on the Mar A Lago Terrace was about whether or not Trump was on Ozempic and a lot of. A lot of passionate belief that indeed he was.

[Joanna]

That is interesting. And there's such an irony here that on the one hand, people can't get enough food because the SNAP benefits have been suspended, and then on the other, Trump is surrounded by actually a man who looked pretty thin fainting as he discussed the possibility of reducing the price of GLP ones.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And Trump has. I mean, that's also been a constant refrain of Trump noting how fat Americans are and how fat, you know, many of his, you know, talking about when people turn out for rallies, all of the fat people who have come out to see me. Is a Trump line interesting.

[Joanna]

Well, his wife isn't fat. And his wife, Melania, of course, who you are suing, received an award this week, and we had a rather good headline at the Beast maga. Crowd guffaws as Melania Trump delivers weird word salad. So she's at least having some salad. It's a word salad. So she's receiving Patriot of the Year award.

[Michael Wolff]

Just clarify who that award is for me, because I'm a little confused about who's giving this award. Not. Not the Oscars.

[Joanna]

It's not. It's not the Oscars. It's. She appeared on stage to accept the Patriot of the Year award at Fox Nation's seventh annual Patriot Awards. And she got up on the stage and she said, I know a little bit about challenging convention. Did that. I don't know if that sounded Slovenian at all.

[Michael Wolff]

Sounded.

[Joanna]

Sounded, Sounded odd, didn't. It sounded like you, but okay, it sounded like me.

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[Michael Wolff]

When you do an accent, when you.

[Joanna]

Subpoena her, you could ask her what did she mean when she said she understands A little bit about challeng.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. No. To what convention is she referring? Perhaps a convention that a first lady lives with her husband, the president, in the White House.

[Joanna]

Well, we're going to get to some more questions for ask Melania at the end of the episode.

[Michael Wolff]

Just let me understand this award. So this is Fox Nation, and Fox Nation is the, is the digital arm. The. The never really rising to the level of success of any other news. Digital arm.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Digital arm.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And so this is like, let' swe we need a little, a little, little press. Let's give the first lady an award.

[Joanna]

Exactly. And. And she was given her award. I just want to be specific here for her advocacy work for children around the globe, which of course included sending a letter to Russian President Vladimir Putin asking him to protect children in Ukraine, where, of course, you know, his country, Russia, has abducted tens of thousands of children. I'll give you one more line. I will do it in my bad Slovenian accent. I applaud American dreamers and innovates, innovators who embrace originality. Benjamin Franklin got a shout out, Hamilton got a shout out, and so did Thomas Jefferson.

[Michael Wolff]

And let's see this again in the context of the rollout of her $40 million documentary with a 70% back end and her corporate, $10 million corporate sponsorships. And that will happen Melania the movie at the end of January.

[Joanna]

So that might be what she means about bucking convention, too, that as a first lady, she's actually making sure she gets well paid.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, yes, but that does not buck the convention of anyone else in the Trump White House or Trump family.

[Joanna]

True, but it bucks the convention of other first ladies.

[Michael Wolff]

It certainly does.

[Joanna]

So. All right, moving swiftly on, we should thank the Museum of the City of New York for having us on Wednesday evening.

[Michael Wolff]

That was a gas. I mean, it really, it's fun to be in front of a live audience.

[Joanna]

It was very confusing because for us, it was a bit like doing a podcast. But suddenly there were real life responses to what we were saying.

[Michael Wolff]

In the old days of television, when there was a studio audience, you know, and then a Tumblr would come out and to prime the audience and make them laugh. That's what we need, someone like that.

[Joanna]

We need a tumbler.

[Michael Wolff]

But I do live anytime.

[Joanna]

Well, it was really fun. And what was interesting was people had come. There was a lady had come from Michigan, there was a gentleman who'd come from North Carolina, and they really, they were really engaged with what's going on. And as you say, it felt like the Perfect moment, because there's a moment happening this week. You saw it on your GoFundMe, which I think is now up to 600,000. You saw it in the results of the election and the record votes, certainly in New York since the 60s, the biggest vote for a mayor since the 1960s. So people re engaging, which also may be one of the Trump's legacies, that he's got people interested in politics as if it were a reality television show.

[Michael Wolff]

I think there's a more complicated thing here. It's, it's, I mean, we've gone through this, this, this year, this unprecedented year. I mean, a year, I mean, just shocking in every respect. And nobody has done anything. And actually, it's been characterized by, by, not least of all by the institutions that we expect to do something kind of folding. And this is, you know, media outlets, news outlets who have groveled, courts who have succumbed. I mean, it's, I mean, if you're a good half of the country that is passionately opposed to Trump, you've had nowhere to turn.

[Joanna]

Well, hold on a minute. We had 7 million people marched for no Kings. There've been some very determined judges who've called him out and who've stopped him exporting people to El Salvador. I mean, there have been all sorts of judges who've said, no, you can't do this. You can't suspend snap benefits.

[Michael Wolff]

We've had a no Kings protests that the administration seemed very ably to ignore in every way to shrug off its, you know, no sweat off of us. You have a justice system which is run amok without restraints, which no courts have been able to effectively restrain. Plus you have a Supreme Court which has basically, in every instance, I mean, it's not even that they have, that they have decided in the Trump administration's favor, because then you might, that might precipitate something. They've done this other thing of allowing things to go on and then putting their decision off. So they have not even had to assume responsibility for, for this. But I think at this, at this moment, having seen that institutional failure, there is this moment the election now has, you know, given people's individual votes. And I think it's this moment when people say, you know, maybe we have to take this into our own hands. And, and I take this personally because I think that's what people shelling out all this money for this legal case that I've been involved in is about. People want to do something. They want to put their $10 or $15 or, you know, or A hundred dollars. And most of the contributions have been under that. They want to put that down. Yes, I want to do something, take my money, take. I, I need to be a part of something. So that's to harness that. And I don't. And I wish I knew how to harness things. I wish I were in, you know, a person with an organizational background. Because I think this could come together in something. And I think this is something that makes these, you know, this, you know, that you could just confront this despicable gang.

[Joanna]

Well, one year in, I do think it's fair to say, especially after the election on Tuesday and the vote for the redistricting of California, that Governor Newsom is clearly at this stage and of course, it's early ahead in the race in terms of Democratic leadership. And he was posting yesterday pictures of what appeared to be Donald Trump. And you will have heard in the press conference that he gave that every time Donald Trump got a question, he just threw it to JD Vance. So it seemed that he looked exhausted this week. He looked exhausted. His cankles were playing up. I'm not saying the guy hasn't been running around the world. He has. And for someone who's 79, his schedule is incredible. But he looks ill. Well, you're, you're.

[Michael Wolff]

Always killing him off.

[Joanna]

I'm not killing him off. I'm just saying that Governor Newsom pointed out that he was asleep and he was like, dozy Don is back. So in terms of your point that nobody's doing anything and nobody's cutting through, actually, people did cut through at the election in the, in the off year elections. There was a rousing.

[Michael Wolff]

I am saying that this is, that there does seem at this moment, and that could go away to be a, the ground seems to be shifting and it could shift very fast. You know, you pull the thread and things sometimes unravel very quickly.

[Joanna]

So.

[Michael Wolff]

This is the moment that we're in. And it is the moment the people in the White House, who I was speaking to yesterday, the person I only spoke to one person, Let me clarify. You know, I think that was what was on this person's mind, and that's what this person represented, was on a lot of people's minds in the White House that the unraveling may have begun. And the unraveling and even to the extent of this person talking about a scenario going around the White House in which they lose both houses, they actually lose the Senate, which is a leap as well as the House, now that becomes existential. Because if that happens, all of the people in the it's not just Trump the people in the White House. They're basically their careers, possibly their lives are destroyed. I mean, you're suddenly looking at a scenario in which there is an impeachment and finally a conviction. If were that to happen. So within the White House, the fact that they have to consider that and the fact that they are considering that is a moment. And let's go to our sponsors.

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[Joanna]

And Michael Wolff and I are back inside Trump's head. We're recording this on Friday and there's a new movie opening tonight called New Nuremberg, which is about the Nuremberg trials. I went to a screening of it earlier this week and it couldn't be more apropos for the moment. And you have that whole sense of, you know, this is Hitler's cabinet sitting there. He's died by suicide at this stage, as have various other people around him. But some of the people who believed in him are sitting there and justice has caught up with them. And it's very well done. It's Russell Crowe back in a role that really suits him as Herman Goering, and I really recommend people go and see it. If you want to see what happens after the tyrant has left the stage.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm going to push back and loathe to make that comparison.

[Joanna]

Of course you're going to push back.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't think it's helpful for a variety of reasons, among which, you know, Trump, there are many things about, about the Trump administration. But the Jews are still alive.

[Joanna]

Well, of course the Jews are still alive. And we have social media and we're all running around saying, is it an autocracy? Is it an autocracy? Which obviously you can't do in an autocracy. But my point is it's this notion of a charismatic leader and what happens when he exits the stage and the people that are left behind.

[Michael Wolff]

I just think that's unhelpful. And if Russell Crowe and Hollywood are doing it, that's an indication of how unhelpful it is and let's, you know, hammer a point into the ground.

[Joanna]

There is an element of the sledgehammer about it. But it's never a bad thing to see Michael Shannon and Rami Malek and Russell Crowe together. And Richard E. Grant, by the way, who delivers the stinging, the stinging prosecutorial moment as the as Maxwell Fry, the British prosecutor, anyway, I enjoyed it with two hours of complete escape, oddly, into the Nuremberg trials, which shows how bad things are.

[Michael Wolff]

But still, nevertheless, I mean, I think to go back to the point, the existential point for the people in the Trump White House, and this is a, there should be alarm bells also ringing on the other side when we realize what's at stake for these people. I mean, if they lose the election, if they lose in 2026, they are finished, finished politically. But, you know, so much else. I mean, the balance of power is, is at this point, if it flips against them, it flips on them. And so they have to be thinking, and I know that they are thinking. And this person that I spoke to in the White House said this will be because again, Donald Trump can't course correct. This person said this will be an election, 2026 of lawyers.

[Joanna]

An election of lawyers. What does that mean, that they're just going to challenge all the results?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I think it begins now. And I mean, the program to gerrymander as many congressional seats as they possibly can is essentially a looking at this through a lawyer's lens. Can we do this? How do we do this? How do we create the laws, pass the laws in the variety of states to make this happen? There is the, before the Supreme Court. So the Supreme Court is, is now and has been considering for some time dismantling the final guardrails of the Voting Rights Act. That will be that, that will have a significant impact. There's a, and there's, there, there, there is a whole range of legal maneuvers that cut down on the ability to get to the polls and who gets to the polls, all of this. So in other words, we're not talking about politics anymore. We're talking about how you harness the voting system to your advantage. And now, while that always goes on to some degree, it has probably never gone on as aggressively as it is now, and I think probably even more so as this election year rolls on. This is the only way the Trump people hold the House. It may be the only way they hold the Senate is the only way they hold their jobs and their livelihood.

[Joanna]

Is there also a sense in which they may know that they have only got a year left and so they're going to speed up even more? I mean, what more can they do? You've talked about the redistricting and in particular the Southern states, which might give them another 15, 12 to 15 votes, it's thought, in the Southern states. But what else is on his plan that he could do, which would be very difficult to undo or take a long time to rebuild. I mean, we've seen the demolition of the East Wing, which we've all forgotten about, even though it's still lying there as a pile of rubble. But what else do you think is on the Project 2025 agenda that he can whip up in the next year?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, and I think you have to see that in a different way. I mean, curiously, I think there will be some restraint on him or efforts to restrain him, but I think that that usually doesn't work. And he just continues on, doubling down and to doing what he wants to do. I mean, this is fundamental.

[Joanna]

Who would be the restraining voices?

[Michael Wolff]

There are no restraining voices because there is. Because he doesn't listen to anyone and because people know that the way you have to deal with him is that's a bad way to deal with him, to say, hey, you know, this isn't. This may not be. This may not be working. But I think there will. There will be restraining voices outside of his hearing. So, in other words, there are political staffers who trying to say, okay, you know, this is a. How do we do what we do with some hope of countering what he does?

[Joanna]

So is this the equivalent of what Gary Cohn said he did in the previous administration, where he would just remove papers from Trump's desk and Trump never got to see them?

[Michael Wolff]

They call it slow walking.

[Joanna]

Slow walking. And then he's moved on. His attention is vibing on something else right now.

[Michael Wolff]

There are other people. I mean, the Stephen Millers of this White House, of this world will look at this as their opportunity to press forward, to seize more, to as to speak to Trump's inclination always to double down. And that will be to Stephen Miller's advantage, because Stephen Miller is not really in this, in the, in the, in the White House as a political person. He's in the White House as a policy, ideological.

[Joanna]

Do you think they will double down on what's going on with these little boats that they're taking out in the Caribbean?

[Michael Wolff]

I think that's. And I think Venezuela is a very alarming scenario. I mean, he could very well go to war in Venezuela. I mean, he is going, you know, within. He'll get up in the morning, and what is on his mind is, what do I do? I am unhappy with this. That. The other thing. What do I do to distract from that, to create another situation in which I am in control of. And once again, a message from our sponsors.

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[Michael Wolff]

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[Joanna]

And Michael Wolff and I are here again, inside Trump's head. Okay, so. So we've still got the longest government shutdown ever, which we haven't even gotten to yet. And we've still got the Epstein files.

[Michael Wolff]

No, And I think that the Epstein files are going to come back with some intensity now that the election is over. And you know, again, it is the thing, it may well be the thing that he can't escape that brings him. I hesitate to say that brings him down, but brings him the most pain.

[Joanna]

That brings him the most pain. Okay, So I think it's time. That brings us neatly to our Ask Melania section. We have some questions for you to ask Melania and some questions for you about what's going on. This is from Monica 16v. Has Melania or her lawyers responded yet to Michael Wolf's lawsuit? And if yes, what was her defense? If no, when does Michael expect a response?

[Michael Wolff]

They have, I believe, 90 days from now to yet respond. But she will be. Subpoenas will start to go out almost immediately, and then the response time is much shorter and the action starts, you know, and we are now, I think I can safely say this is a fully funded lawsuit.

[Joanna]

A fully funded lawsuit.

[Michael Wolff]

We have a war chest and so we can go to war.

[Joanna]

So full steam ahead. Okay, so here's someone whose name I can't pronounce. I think it's S. Clogzy. S. Cloggsy or Sclogzi. Perhaps I should ask, if Michael wins, does Melania have to pay for his lawyer's fees? And if so, does Michael then start paying people back? Have you thought about that possibility yet?

[Michael Wolff]

There are some scenarios in which she does have to pay legal fees. And I think for our position on the money we. We've raised is that we will pay it forward. So we will then begin to fund other efforts to protect free speech from the Trump gang.

[Joanna]

Okay, and here's another question which I like very much. Cat Lady 5398 says Melania questions. How did she begin to talk to Putin? What does she talk to him about? How often do they talk?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, since Putin does not speak English, this is. I don't know the answer to that now. Does Melania speak Russian? Doesn't she claims to speak well, she.

[Joanna]

Speaks Italian, she speaks German, she speaks.

[Michael Wolff]

French, but we have never heard her speak these languages.

[Joanna]

Potatoes. Potatoes. Okay. And final question, which is actually more of a point from someone called high life. Sorry, Michael, you are wrong. Joanna, once again, you are spot on. Usha is miserable af. I think that means as fuck. Ask any woman.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, could be she's either miserable or plotting. It's kind of one or the other.

[Joanna]

It's binary. Miserable or plotting. Michael, good to see you as always. We can discuss Orban's visit next time, perhaps. We promised people we were going to talk about Russell Vogt and we haven't done and we should come back to him. And what do you think RFK Jr. Was doing when he fled the room after the man collapsed? I mean, he is the Minister for Health and he fled the room at the sight of someone fainting, shooting up. I suppose you think he was shooting up. You think he was having his own medical emergency? All right, if you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. Wherever you get your podcasts, leave us a comment on YouTube and please join our community where you can share a sense of community with other Beast listeners. And to remind people, as our first lady would have us do, even as she's armed with her Patriot Award from Fox Fox Nation and she's confused about.

[Michael Wolff]

Have we seen the award? Is it a statue? Is it a what is it?

[Joanna]

I don't know, but I'm going to get a photo of the award for. We'll put a photo of her, I hope, accepting the award. And again, just to remind you, add to your questions for Melania, what does she mean when she says she's used to bucking convention?

[Michael Wolff]

And I think we should continue to come back to Melania, the movie and the director, Brett Ratner, who was one of the, one of the, the early me too people in, in Hollywood. And this, this restores him to back to his back to his respect, I guess, respectability.

[Joanna]

And what, what was his famous. Remind me what his famous movie was again. Or he's. I know he was a very successful director before he got me too'd.

[Michael Wolff]

He did the Rush Hour series.

[Joanna]

The Rush Hour.

[Michael Wolff]

He's hugely successful.

[Joanna]

The Rush Hour series, which would be a great series for Mamdani to watch as he's going to put on free buses and they're going to be much faster.

[Michael Wolff]

And the whole idea of Melania as an action hero was kind of fascinating.

[Joanna]

She does look a bit like Barbies I had when I was growing up.

[Michael Wolff]

Up.

[Joanna]

She does.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, she does. Well, I'm sure that that was. She was sculpted that way.

[Joanna]

Well, as she's always telling us, we must be best and we must be beast. Michael, I will see you on Tuesday.

[Michael Wolff]

Fantastic. And a shout out to our special beast members. Herbie Andrew, Mellor, Fulvia, Orlando Las Conde, Sandra Clark, Bonzo Val Love, Francesco Bobcock DC Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley and Andrea Hotel.

[Joanna]

Michael, what have I forgotten to thank.

[Michael Wolff]

Devon and Jesse.

[Joanna]

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[Podcast Sponsor Announcer (Girls That Invest / Trelica)]

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[Michael Wolff]

Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily Beast [e-mail] podcasts if you enjoyed this.

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