Michael Kirk (2:59)

The Reiners were killed, as we know in the overwhelming likelihood is that they were killed by their son. It had nothing to do with Donald Trump who again in this instance has, you know, takes this, has to insert himself into the situation so he becomes the star of this. It is not just that this is objectionable, but the fact that someone would say this is an indication of their own alarming personal situation. Trump is off his fucking rocker.

Michael Wolff (3:34)

Michael.

Michael Kirk (3:36)

Joanna.

Michael Wolff (3:36)

Oh my goodness, we got so much wrong in our last episode. I want to do two quick corrections.

Michael Kirk (3:43)

So much. We. Was it we.

Michael Wolff (3:45)

No, it was me. It was me. It was me. I'm putting my hand up.

Michael Kirk (3:49)

I'll take, I, I'm, I'm willing to take blame anything.

Michael Wolff (3:52)

I love reading the comments because some of them are just, you know, duh, stupid woman. Of course you couldn't read a map. Sort of true. Anyway, of course it wasn't the i95. I know this. Actually, I didn't get stuck on the i95 going the wrong way. It was the I. I think it was the I45 or possibly the I55, the road that runs.

Michael Kirk (4:12)

I don't remember any eyes. Where were you when I got discussion about the road? About highways?

Michael Wolff (4:18)

Yes.

Michael Kirk (4:18)

In America.

Michael Wolff (4:19)

Yes, when I. For regular listeners you might know that I went into a long story about how I went the wrong way up. How I remembered it was the i95 because I've also gone the wrong way up the i95 too, in Indiana. But actually as various of you pointed out, the i95 is on the East Coast. This was going from Chicago to, I don't know, somewhere south in Indiana. And I think it's this, the i55.

Ad Voice 2 (4:49)

No, it could have been the i45.

Michael Kirk (4:51)

Or the i6 drive. I would, that would certainly have not ruffled me.

Michael Wolff (4:59)

Okay. Well, it ruffled the serious listeners of us. So I, I apologize for that.

Michael Kirk (5:03)

Well, people who live out. That's one of the reasons I don't drive, because I grew up in New Jersey where every conversation, I mean I would say 80% of all conversations were about highways. Did you take Route 4? Oh, no. You should have taken Route 208 and if you changed over on 17, that would have been a good way to do that. But you basically want to come back to 46. This was every discussion when I was growing up.

Michael Wolff (5:31)

Yeah, I actually remember that from growing up in New Yorkshire, too. There was a lot of conversation about, did you take the ring road? Did you take the ring road or. And. Or the back roads?

Michael Kirk (5:40)

Anyway, so that was my vow. I'm going to Manhattan. I'm never going to drive where they don't talk. And in Manhattan, they don't talk about. About. About highways.

Michael Wolff (5:48)

We do talk about taxis that you take. Taxi versus Uber. Do you take the subway? I just want to reassure people who don't live in New York. The subway is very safe. I take the subway all the time. It is not like you read about.

Michael Kirk (6:00)

Is that. Is that true?

Michael Wolff (6:02)

Yes.

Michael Kirk (6:02)

I find. I find that hard to believe.

Michael Wolff (6:05)

No, I shouldn't even say this out loud. I'm looking for wood to tap. I'm going to tap my head. I've never seen an incident on the subway. I know I shouldn't say it out loud. I've never seen. I've been riding it for nearly 30 years. I've never seen an incident. Instead, I love it because I'm looking for fashion. I'm looking for what are people looking at on their phones and what books are they reading. I find it a great place, the subway. And I like being part of that morning commute.

Michael Kirk (6:32)

Once, when I was 20 years old, a. A comely young woman made eyes at me on the subway, and then it stopped and she got off. And I've been thinking about this ever since. A lost opportunity, which I think many people have on the subways.

Michael Wolff (6:49)

I think that's true. And I think she's thinking about it since, and she's probably like, I think that might be that guy I saw on the subway 40 years ago, 50 years ago. Who cares how many years ago it was? It felt like yesterday. And then the other thing is, I said, look, luaus, I think for those things, Hawaiian things that people wear around their necks.

Michael Kirk (7:13)

And those are leis.

Michael Wolff (7:14)

Those are leis, Yep. Several people pointed that out. I think I was just groping for the first Hawaiian word I could find.

Michael Kirk (7:20)

There wasn't a lie that are worn at a luau. Possibly.

Michael Wolff (7:23)

Thank you, God. How do you know this stuff? Why didn't you leap in? Anyway, apologies.

Michael Kirk (7:30)

Listen to you. We talk, but, you know, we're not really listening to each other.

Michael Wolff (7:33)

Perhaps that's upsetting. That's truly upsetting, Michael. All right, we have a ton to get through. We've got the Vanity Fair piece by Chris Whipple on Susie Wiles, which she's now frantically denying on Twitter. I want to get into the meat and the bones of that. We've got a fascinating and rather sweet diary by a former girlfriend of Jeffrey Epstein's, which the New York Times has run. And they've even got her wonderful script cursive. And it reminded me she was 23 when she kept it. She worked at Bear Stearns. And it reminded me of the diaries I kept at that age. So I want to poke into that.

Michael Kirk (8:14)

I want to get the diaries, your diaries from when you were 23.

Michael Wolff (8:19)

That's never going to happen.

Michael Kirk (8:21)

Worth the whole show.

Michael Wolff (8:22)

That is never going to happen. I stopped keeping diaries and then started keeping more sporadic notes. But. But sometimes I go back and read them and I'm just like, thank God I'm not in my 20s again. And then, of course, we've got the tragedy, the tragedy of Nick Reiner and Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer, his wife. And that terrible, terrible response by President Trump to what is a tragic family situation. And also one that I think families across America are very familiar with. A member of the family or a. Or friends who have a member of the family who's mentally ill and who's violent and terrifying, and parents struggle to figure out how on earth to manage this.

Michael Kirk (9:07)

Yeah, well, those are really, really two stories. I mean, there is the story, which is unfathomable, but then there is the.

Michael Wolff (9:17)

President of it all, also unfathomable.

Michael Kirk (9:20)

But let's give some thought to that. Cause I think it is telling.

Michael Wolff (9:25)

Well, I'm very curious to know, very curious to know what you think about that. And oddly for us, we didn't actually touch base yesterday. And when something like that happens, the only person I want to hear from is you. Well, in fact, we had a text exchange where even you, who it's pretty much impossible to surprise, you, was. You were pretty kind of like, what the fuck?

Michael Kirk (9:50)

Well, I think it is a what the fuck situation, and I think it is a concern. And I've spoken to somebod in the White House, so let's. Let' swe can we can get to that?

Michael Wolff (10:01)

Okay. All right. Well, let's start with what is rapidly becoming a story, a huge piece in Vanity Fair by the writer Chris Whipple, a sort of establishment journalist who's been writing about chiefs of staff and spent apparently 11 interviews with Susie Wiles, who last week, interestingly, you said is losing relevance now. She's been slightly pushed to the side in the White House. She sort of gets the Trains running on time, but as you've always maintained, isn't a real chief of staff, because that's not what Donald Trump wants. And anybody. He had four in his first term, and when they tried to give him the traditional chief of staff advice, they got fired anyway. Susie Wiles is the survivor. Up until now, I haven't read every single word of this because it's a very long piece, but she's now fighting.

Michael Kirk (11:00)

For her job, and who does read every single word of anything anymore?

Michael Wolff (11:05)

Well, that's true. Thank you. Thank you for leaping to our defense. I would like to have scrolled through.

Michael Kirk (11:09)

It, but, you know, I mean, let's just go back to Susie Wiles because I know this terrain pretty well. And, and as you say, she isn't a chief of staff. She functions really as a chief administrator. And that's what has kept her in, in good stead. She is never telling Donald Trump what to do or what to think or how to respond. She just basically stands back and manages whatever he does. So the fallout is all over the place, and she's, she's there cleaning it up, but she is never trying to prevent the fallout. So you get to keep your job as Donald Trump's chief of staff if you are, if you just give him free rein, if you don't have any pretense that you are there to control him or regulate him or advise him.

Michael Wolff (12:05)

But, Michael, how could they have let someone in? Did they not learn their lesson with fire and fury? You sat there quietly.

Michael Kirk (12:12)

I mean, obviously they, they, they let me in and why this happens. You know, they think that they have an advantage. I'm sure that she says this. Chris Whipple is the chronicler of chiefs of staff. I mean, he is the person who kind of says, anoints you as a historic figure as a chief of staff. So I think that that was probably why they decided, they decided to do, to do this. I mean, but, you know, she seldom does this kind of thing when she does do it. You know, I remember during the campaign, USA Today did a, an extended interview and profile of, of her. And this then went on to occupy her time for, I think, I think the better part of a month. All of her staff, all of the people, that's all they did was try to try to manage this process. Now, this is USA Today, which has never said an unkind word about anyone, the most bland publication in America, but nevertheless, they rushed in to do everything possible to manage the writer of this, of this story, and this was not a story about Donald Trump and the stories about Donald Trump, they never managed. Susie Wiles was like, you know, it's Donald Trump. That's, I mean, literally a separate, a separate kind of category of responsibility. But she was obsessed with her own press. So it's kind of exceptional that they did let this happen, that they let Chris Whipple into the White House to do these interviews.

Michael Wolff (14:12)

Ok, so the highlights from it are that she said Donald Trump has an alcoholic personality. J.D. vance has been a conspiracy theorist for 10 years, and that Elon Musk, on his wildest tweets, is that that's when he's microdosing. She's now, of course, come out and said that that wasn't true. She certainly didn't say that about Elon Musk. Chris Whipple then played the tape of her saying it to the New York Times, and 15 minutes ago, she tweeted out something she doesn't do very often. The article published early this morning is a disingenuously framed hit piece on me and the finest president, White House staff and cabinet in history. Senate significant context was disregarded and much of what I, and others said about the team and the president was left out. So she looks like a woman who's fighting for her job. Is, in fact that the wrong takeaway, given that all this White House seems to want is attention?

Michael Kirk (15:14)

No, I mean, because she doesn't want attention and she survives by not getting attention. So I assume that, that behind the scenes, this was closely debated and it had to do with Chris Whipple and chiefs of staff. And as I said that, that, that historical context, because he's the chronicler of chiefs of staff.

Michael Wolff (15:40)

He's written about chiefs of staff before. So this was bestowing a seriousness on her and the administration.

Michael Kirk (15:46)

Right. And I also feel, I also suspect, I also kind of know, I suppose, that she has been, she is losing ground within the White House and not gaining ground. And so I think that she herself probably, and her staff probably made the strategic decision. She has to be put, she has to be moved forward. That, you know, the Donald Trump thing is, is if you get too much press, he fires you. But if you don't get enough press, he ignores you.

Michael Wolff (16:24)

What a great observation. Just say that again. If you get too much press, he fires you. If you don't get enough press, he ignores you.

Michael Kirk (16:34)

Exactly. So she's managing that, that process. And this would have seemed, I would have said this seems like a, like a, like a, like a good thing to do. I mean, I've read his, his book about chief of Staff. Speaking of bland. It's bland. You know, it's very straightforward. There is no, there's no gotcha in that, in that book.

Michael Wolff (17:04)

Well, there seems to be several gotchas in this piece.

Michael Kirk (17:07)

Here's the thing. You don't do this very often and she doesn't do it very often. You don't know how to do it. You know, there is the tendency, and God knows I've benefited this from, you know, on a million occasions, that people, people want to. Your subjects want to bond with you and so suddenly they're kind of gossiping with you. And, you know, you know, the old off the record, on the record thing is much more sketchy than journalists let on. So people, because people are going, always going, on the record, off the record. You know, I remember Nick Denton.

Michael Wolff (17:54)

Remember Nick Denton, of course, the founder of Gorka.

Michael Kirk (17:57)

I was once at a dinner with Nick Denton and I just flashed on this and realized you too were at that dinner.

Michael Wolff (18:04)

I was. I have no memory of ever having a dinner with Nick Denton.

Michael Kirk (18:09)

Yes. Remember we had it in that restaurant on 9th Street. Piers Morgan was there and the.

Michael Wolff (18:18)

Oh, I remember Evgeny Lebedev.

Michael Kirk (18:21)

Exactly.

Michael Wolff (18:22)

I do remember this dinner. I do remember this dinner. He was the Russian. He was the son of a Russian KGB agent. KGB leader who owned the independent Evening.

Michael Kirk (18:34)

Standard News, who ran the Evening Standard newspaper in London. The now defunct Evening Standard, I believe. But at some point, Piers Morgan was saying to Nick Denton, saying something indiscreet to Nick Denton, and he said, I hope that's off the record. And Nick Denton said, you know, I can never remember what's on the record or off the record. So you might as well just assume everything is on the record.

Michael Wolff (19:03)

Right. Smart answer. Very smart answer.

Michael Kirk (19:06)

Yes. No. And it is an accurate one. So I. So I'm sure Susie Wiles, who is not deft in this regard, you know, let slip what she shouldn't have let slip.

Michael Wolff (19:21)

Well, and as you're always making the point, the Trump administration is made up of people who wouldn't normally be in any functioning government administration, and some of them have more awareness of that than others. And perhaps she, in her decision to sit down for 11 interviews with Chris Whipple, saw this as her opportunity to normalize and perhaps heroicize her own contribution.

Michael Kirk (19:51)

Yeah. No, and all of these observations are commonplace within the White House. Matter of fact, in my book, all or Nothing, I quote in aid talking about Trump's alcoholic personality, but in acknowledging that he never has a drink.

Michael Wolff (20:12)

Right. And we know his older brother Fred died from Alcoholism.

Michael Kirk (20:18)

Yes. I mean, I'm not sure that that'. Syl. I mean, Trump does not. Has never, at least in his telling, has never had a drink, but nevertheless is, Is. Can. Can. Can often feel like he's on a.

Michael Wolff (20:33)

Bender, I was going to say, and yet feels frequently like he's drunk. To eating in the middle of the night.

Michael Kirk (20:38)

Exactly, exactly. So, and, and Elon, I think Elon has basically admitted to microdosing. I mean, these again. And, and I, you know, that's the other thing. When, when people do this, they have these interviews, they tell you things which they assume you already know and are not, as we say, pull quotes and suddenly they are. And you go, and then they go crazy.

Michael Wolff (21:07)

Right. And they take on a life of their own once they're on social media too. But there's a reason it's called Vanity Fair. And it's amazing how many people get hoist by their own vane Potard. I mean, one thinks of Chris Licht, the former head of CNN who spent almost a year with Tim Alberta from the Atlantic, who wrote a devastating 17,000 word piece on him, which by the end of the day of publication, Chris Licht was out because he said so many absurd things which in the moment with an interviewer probably were flippant or fun or you thought were building to a, a profile of you that made you entertain.

Michael Kirk (21:47)

Yeah, no, and, and it's, you know, I, I can say, and it's an interesting thing that that same set of interviews that Chris Lick did in the hands of another writer might have been perfectly, you know, dignified him and elevated him. It is, as so many people over so long have learned, a crapshoot. I mean, subjects learn this. You don't know, you don't know the nature of what's going to be written. I mean, which is why there is a monster, you know, a billion, a billion dollar industry all about trying to, trying to get you the press that you want.

Michael Wolff (22:33)

Right. The PR and crisis relations business. Well, anyway, I'm looking forward to really digging into the piece and reading more about it. I remember talking to Andrew Card once who was the chief of staff for George W. Bush, and he said his job primarily was to make sure the President was never lonely, hungry or tired. And I thought I would like someone around me who just made sure that. Because I'm always lonely, hungry and tired.

Michael Kirk (23:01)

That was disingenuous on his part.

Michael Wolff (23:04)

Yeah, well, I'm sure it was.

Michael Kirk (23:06)

Yeah, what he was saying, I mean, that's what you want a chief of staff to say. Basically, you know, I'm just the guy, you know, I'm just your body man. But he's not the body man. There is a body man. There is someone whose job is precisely that. And the chief of staff is to actually run the government.

Michael Wolff (23:27)

Right. Right. Well, maybe Andrew Carr was running the government.

Michael Kirk (23:31)

No. And he was. And he is a kind of famously capable chief of staff.

Michael Wolff (23:37)

Is Susie Wiles famously capable or is she just. She just doesn't get the opportunity because that's not what Trump wants.

Michael Kirk (23:45)

Well, she's capable at what she does, you know, managing the mess, not trying to stop the mess, not trying to. Regulate the mess, not trying to, you know, create even, even, even create a situation in which there would not be a mess. She accepts the mess and then tries to manage it. And I, I think it's time for a word from our sponsors.

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Michael Wolff (27:25)

And Michael Wolfe and I are back. Where else? Inside Trump's head. So Jeffrey Epstein's girlfriend, Patricia Schmidt kept diaries like many of us did back then. And in 1987 she says, I'm still seeing name redacted, but there's no spark for me. He totally bugs me now. All he does is talk about his stupid production level, how great he is, exclamation point, big shit. He totally bores me to tears. Jeffrey found out that I wasn't Arlene Dahl's daughter, but he's not sure. So this first of all, why is she still seeing the guy whose name is redacted if he bores her? I would have dumped him if I were her. And then what's interesting about this is that it turns out that Patricia's maiden name, or Patricia's mother's maiden name is Arlene Dahl, which was also the name of a famous actress, which Jeffrey gets very excited about because he thinks that she, he is, I don't know, dating or friendly with the daughter of a famous actress. And then eventually he finds out it was not so and he's disappointed. But what's interesting is Patricia tries to keep him guessing. Feel free to comment on this.

Michael Kirk (28:47)

No, I mean I was, I mean I skimmed through this very, very quickly, looking for salacious details, I suppose, and I didn't find any. You know, I mean, we're at this level in which we're at this moment in which anything about Jeffrey Epstein and we've talked about, you know, the release of those pictures which told us nothing at all. Everything about Jeffrey Epstein becomes a obsessional or fetishistic in its way. So here, I mean, as far as I can tell. And again, I want to look at this in a much closer fashion. It does seem that this is that if you, if you took out the name Jeffrey Epstein and substituted some, someone else's name it could have been anybody's diary of a relationship which was either was going to go someplace or not going to go someplace and ultimately doesn't go anyplace.

Michael Wolff (29:52)

Well, interestingly, they don't appear to be dating, they just appear to be friends. There's one, and I totally agree with you, they're kind of shavings. They're shavings off the wood of this story. There's one entry which I was going to read which is only curious because it's about how he asks her to do him a favor which is to show someone around Bear Stearns, the bank where she's working at the time. Jeffrey Epstein phoned me to ask if I'd show a friend of his around Bear Stearns. He came with his father, both from Switzerland and they were so charming. They loved me and took me to lunch. I told them all about the stock market. I mean she's 23 at this point. It turns out that Bob Gold, who works with Jeffrey called me to thank me and came to Bear Stearns and told Clark all about it. He had a big smile on his face, yet who really knows what he thinks of me. So it's actually a very sweet, it's a very sort of sweet filter through which to understand a 23 year old woman who's trying to make her way in the world. She's being used by Jeffrey Epstein. She's using Jeffrey Epstein. It's just one of those things that felt both familiar and the implication of.

Michael Kirk (31:10)

The Times story was that he was manipulating her in some, in some devious, highly devious way. And you know, I don't. As I said, I haven't looked at it that closely but certainly in the, in my quick run through of this I didn't see anything too out of the ordinary.

Michael Wolff (31:33)

No, I don't think there is. And, but what is sweet is the, is the insight into her. There's a lovely one where she says I went to a headhunter and I gave him my resume. I have so much ambition and energy. It's so sweet. And then she says I'll have my turn soon, I pray. It's just, I don't know. I found it highly relatable. I found it highly relatable, except for the bit where she says, I saw Jeffrey last week. I got him in trouble with his girlfriend Eva. He was speaking to her when I came and I spoke to her on the phone. It was 1am she didn't believe I was delivering mail. So it also sounds like he was being manipulative of her, but it doesn't sound anything other than saw Jeffrey last week, had two nice hours. He likes to cuddle with.

Michael Kirk (32:24)

Manipulation.

Michael Wolff (32:25)

Yeah, he likes to cuddle with me and he wants to sleep with me overnight. Yep. Sweet. But doesn't take us anywhere. All right, let's get onto the most depressing spectacle, which was Donald Trump's reaction to the horrifying murder of Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer at the weekend.

Michael Kirk (32:48)

You know, I mean, here's what immediately jumped out at me about this. It's why would he have done this? Who in their right mind, and I want to put an accent on right mind would think this was a good idea? And, and not only not a good idea, but a self destructive idea. I mean, you have a, I mean everybody, everybody has an enormous amount of sympathy for what happened here. I mean, I mean, this is the most desperate family situation virtually anyone might imagine. And then, and then this person, quite a beloved American, Rob Reiner, dies obviously in this, in this, in this situation. So everybody who has a family is, you know, they know where they, they're, they take all of us take a step back and think, oh my God. And then the President of the United States weighs in with a kind of merciless disparagement of this beloved person, beloved American, who's in the middle of this, who's in the middle, who's dead in this terrible, terrible situation. And does the President of the United States think that's going to win him friends? Quite the opposite. I mean, obviously it's not going to win him friends. But I think it's so egregious and so over the line that, and he talks about Rob Reiner having Trump derangement syndrome. But what it seems very evident is that Trump is deranged. I mean, this is not, I mean, he is, he is. There, there is just, there's no context in which you can, in which you can imagine that this is going to be anything but, but damaging to Donald Trump. So why would he do this? And I think the, and I think, I think because he's losing it. I Mean, I think that this is really key evidence that something profound has slipped here.

Michael Wolff (35:31)

So just for those who haven't been paying attention, or not as much attention as we have, I'm actually going to read out what he said because it's so egregious. And as you say, this could actually be a sign, also alarming.

Michael Kirk (35:46)

I mean, not just a terrible thing to have said, but a thing that in itself having been said, sends up, I think, all kinds of signals which we should pay attention to.

Michael Wolff (35:59)

Well, and also when pressed on it in the Oval Office during a press conference after he'd posted it, he doubled down on it. As you say, when caught in something, he just doubles down. But I'm going to read the original thing which he posted at 10 o'clock yesterday. A very sad thing happened last night in Hollywood. Rob Reiner, a tortured and struggling but once very talented movie director and comedy star, has passed away together with his wife Michelle, reportedly due to the anger he caused others through his massive, unyielding and incurable affliction with a mind crippling disease known as capital letters Trump Derangement Syndrome, sometimes referred to as tds. He was known to have driven people crazy by his raging obsession of President Donald Trump. He's going into the third person here. With his obvious paranoia reaching new heights as the Trump administration surpassed all goals and expectations of greatness. And with the golden age of America upon us, perhaps like never before, may Rob and Michelle rest in peace. I mean, where do we begin?

Michael Kirk (37:12)

Beyond the fact that none of this is true, that the Reiners were killed, as we know, in the overwhelming likelihood is that they were killed by their son. It had nothing to do with Donald Trump who again in this instance has, you know, takes this situ, has to insert, insert himself into the situation so he becomes the star of this, of this. I mean, it's just as, as, as I say it is not just that this is objectionable, but the fact that someone would say this is an indication of their own, you know, of, of, of their, of their own alarming personal situation. But, so I, so I spoke to someone, as I said, in the, in the, in the White House and the, and, and you know, I took this, I took this note and this person said, I don't know what that was, but it wasn't good. Everybody knows it's a thin line. He walks. Is he teetering? Well, and then he didn't complete, this person didn't complete the sentence.

Michael Wolff (38:30)

Well, I wouldn't say it was teetering. I would say it fallen off the line, wouldn't you, with something like this? I mean, even Maga reacted, I think.

Michael Kirk (38:37)

That there's this other aspect of what's, what's going on. You know, these old, you know, we all become kind of diagnosticians of these old man presidents. I mean, nobody is going to come out and say he's, he's losing it. So we all have to make our own judgments about, about that. And I think in this situation, particularly in this situation, in the sense in the way that everyone, everyone who has a family at some level relates to this, I think the judgment is going to be a devastating one. You know, Trump is office free rocker.

Michael Wolff (39:21)

Trump is off his rocker. I know it really does sound like the utterings from an elderly relative who you go and see reluctantly in a home because they just say vile things now. All, all inhibition has gone and they are left muttering in the corner. And you see them out of obligation. And yet, of course, he's the President of the United States, which is truly alarming. I wonder if J.D. vance is rubbing his little conspiratorial fingers together here.

Michael Kirk (39:50)

Well, you know, I don't know. Unless he's considering the 25th Amendment, which would be a story.

Michael Wolff (39:58)

Well, it would be a story. We've still got three years to go.

Michael Kirk (40:01)

Just because, and as anyone has gone through this, just because your older parent, let's say, is showing signs of losing it does not mean that they will not continue down the road of losing it for quite some time. We have, we do have three years to go.

Michael Wolff (40:24)

We've got, right, we've got three years to go. But it's not the first time he's shown signs of losing it. I mean, he's falling asleep in his cabinet meetings, as you pointed out. He's.

Michael Kirk (40:33)

But I think this is, this is especially because this can only hurt him. It's self destructive. There is no, you know, so, I mean, you fall asleep okay, not a good look. But you know, you're, I mean, you can't really, it's not really your fault, but this is something to have said this. And it was unnecessary for him to say anything, to have dived in and so proactively done something that will create nothing. A hundred percent of ill will. That's derangement. And once more, a commercial break.

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Michael Wolff (43:46)

Michael Wolff and I are back where else Inside Trump's head. You've pointed out that he's frequently self destructive, that as much as he as people think he's all powerful and that he's a winner. He also is a huge loser. And this is just incredibly self destructive. I mean, everybody was repulsed by it. I mean, there's no wonder his daughter Ivanka is nowhere near him. It's no wonder that Melania, when she's standing next to him at the Christmas festivities, looks utterly miserable and is not there. I mean, imagine being around this man in a personal capacity. We all know what it's like managing difficult relatives. They must just hate being around him.

Michael Kirk (44:30)

No, I mean, we can imagine difficult relatives then who are the President of the United States.

Michael Wolff (44:35)

Anyway, it's sad and it's a horrifying story about the Reiners. And of course, Donald Trump would only want to make it worse. Well, we have questions for our Ask Melania section. Shall I go ahead?

Michael Kirk (44:56)

Please.

Michael Wolff (44:56)

You said that you might be able to give us a heads up on what's going on in the case.

Michael Kirk (45:01)

I will and I'm waiting for my lawyers to, to give me the okay and I don't have the okay yet, but I should at any, any minute.

Michael Wolff (45:14)

Okay, good. All right. This is from Mirveen. Mirveen1 Ask Melania, did she approve of the destruction of the traditional and official first ladies East Wing of the White House?

Michael Kirk (45:28)

A total of a fundamental question.

Michael Wolff (45:31)

What has happened to the White House, by the way? Do we have any sense of what's happening with the rebuilding?

Michael Kirk (45:37)

No. And now we have. We have. Which, which we get. We should get caught up on. There are lawsuits against this. So he may be stymied in this. So, but, but I'm not on top of the exact, exact legal maneuverings. And of course he's claiming that he has the right to do anything ever.

Michael Wolff (46:00)

And several of you have sent us copies of the email you've sent to Shalom Baranas, the new architect for the East Wing. I'm going to give you his email address, which is just inquiries with an I I N Q U I R I E S at S B A R A N E S inquiriesbaranas.com, the new architect for the East Wing. And you can explain what you would like to see there. You could say that you would like the ballroom to be even bigger than Donald Trump has planned it for. But the point is that's his email address. Feel free to write to him and tell him what you think should be done with the American people's house.

Michael Kirk (46:49)

And remember, you know, it's very easy to knock something down, but then to build it back becomes actually the difficult part. So right now we have a White House which has that, you know, that, you know, a kind of amputated White House.

Michael Wolff (47:07)

We have an amputated White House, and it couldn't be a better metaphor for what's going on. Okay, from Linda Payne, 95. A question for Melania. What does she think of her son Baron's friendship with the sex trafficker Andrew Tate? Does she consider that be best?

Michael Kirk (47:25)

Good one.

Michael Wolff (47:25)

What? A good one. And also, Melania's been playing with be best, and she's been saying, be more best, which is hurt.

Michael Kirk (47:36)

Might be more bestest.

Michael Wolff (47:38)

I think it's be more beast. But her, I mean, I will say I never want to criticize someone for having an accent, myself included, but she's been here for 30 years. How is it possible she hasn't had lessons to make herself more understandable? This must have been a real inhibitor for her moving through life that it's hard to understand her. We heard her trying to read the Christmas book. Does he wear night vision goggles? I mean, nobody talks like that when they've been here for 30 years.

Michael Kirk (48:13)

This is probably because immigrants are so popular in the White House that they're urging her to keep her roots.

Michael Wolff (48:22)

It's just. It's crazy. All right, this is from Leslie Evans. You helped to secure the return of six Ukrainian children from. From Russia. Was that a publicity stunt to gain yourself credit? So tell us, what are you going to do to secure the return of the remaining 20,000 children? You said that Putin is a great leader. So who was responsible for their abduction in the first place?

Michael Kirk (48:53)

Yeah, and I would sort of go further than that. Would want to. What is actually the nature of her relationship with.

Michael Wolff (49:01)

With.

Michael Kirk (49:01)

With. With Putin? You know, I mean, she grows up behind what was then the Iron Curtain. And did she or did she not, and that remains an open question, spend time in Russia? I mean, a lot of people speculate that she. That she did. Anyway, a territory here for. For diving into.

Michael Wolff (49:28)

Yeah. A rich theme of questioning. And then there's a question from T. Carey, 1289. Ask Melania, please. Could you ask Melania about the history of Donald's makeup? Did he always wear more paint than her? Do they share makeup advice secrets? Does he let her touch him up? Speaking of which, who is Trump's makeup person and how much does she make? Also good question.

Michael Kirk (49:51)

Well, I would say the sum of the answer to this is that they don't share very much and including much touching.

Michael Wolff (49:59)

I can't imagine why she just. I know you say that she really doesn't care. And perhaps she wants him to be carted off under the 25th Amendment. That might be a good question for her. I like to throw in my own question at the end of all our viewers questions and I think mine would be, Melania, is it time to invoke the 25th Amendment?

Michael Kirk (50:19)

Yeah. No, no, that's, I mean, in most scenarios it's not, it's the vice president who evokes the 25th Amendment. But I think the president's wife would be a nice change in that movie plot.

Michael Wolff (50:36)

Well, and Dr. Jill Biden took a lot of flack for not, for not alerting people that Joe wasn't up to running for a second term.

Michael Kirk (50:47)

Quite the opposite. She seems to have urged him to run.

Michael Wolff (50:53)

What else do we have to say? We're reminding people that we're on the 92nd Street Y on the 21st of January. I think tickets are almost sold out, actually.

Michael Kirk (51:03)

And we're, it is the day after the first anniversary of the second of the first year of the second Trump administration.

Michael Wolff (51:12)

Correct. And good news for the holidays.

Michael Kirk (51:17)

Are we going to review the year? Maybe, maybe we should just review, I think what is the most consequential year in the history of the American presidency.

Michael Wolff (51:27)

Well, we should certainly be talking about what's happened to the global order and the great fear that's going on in Europe now that there may well be another European war, that 80 years after the end of the Second World War, it looks like armies are having to get back in training for what might actually be Russia, you know, Russia trying to go further than Ukraine.

Michael Kirk (51:53)

Michael Kirk, and you know, what has Donald Trump done? He has unleashed Russia.

Michael Wolff (52:00)

He's unleashed Russia. All right, Michael, we'll be back on Thursday. Good news. We're not going away over the holidays. You get no respite from us. And next week, week we will be doing a two parter on Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein which we've had enormous fun putting together. But we will be back on Thursday with more about this crazy week. Goodness knows what's going to happen and whether or not Susie Wiles will still be in her job on Thursday or will she decide to take a break?

Michael Kirk (52:33)

Well, let's, let's make some, let's, let's make some book on that.

Michael Wolff (52:37)

Well, we should go on Polymarket and have a look at what their product predicting. I think she'll survive. I think Donald Trump will be sympathetic to her and decide that. And double down, Double down. I'm taking a leaf from your book what do you think?

Michael Kirk (52:51)

No, I think that's, I think that's true. Remember, she survived a long time. Now she goes to work for Donald Trump in, in this, the spring of 2021. So it's been, I mean, she has now survived longer than any other key advisor to the President. I use the word adviser loosely.

Michael Wolff (53:17)

And even though his first impression of her was, as he said, a refrigerator.

Michael Kirk (53:23)

And he gave instructions to fire her, and I'll quote, she looks like a refrigerator. Fire her.

Michael Wolff (53:30)

The interesting thing is she wears a lot of gray and silver, which does actually trigger the thoughts of a refrigerator. If I was Susie Wells, I think I would be tempted to wear black or red.

Michael Kirk (53:42)

Well, you know, Donald Trump in his, in his own way, is kind of a poet. I mean, he, he gets it when, you know, I mean, there is enormous amount of truth, unfortunate truth, often that comes out of Donald Trump's mouth because, because he has no filter.

Michael Wolff (53:58)

He has zero filter. He has zero filter. And it's time for someone to insert a filter as they, as they do in refrigerators when they start to smell. Michael, I will see you on Thursday. Thank you. If you have been for watching or listening, don't forget to join the Daily Beast podcast. We're so excited to have made it to 500,000 subscribers. We're now, I think at 500,004 subscribers or 504,000. What? Whatever. Anyway, it's very exciting.

Michael Kirk (54:29)

Still a long way to a million.

Michael Wolff (54:31)

It's long way to a million. But we will get there. We will get there and you can join our community. You can join our community, which several people did over the weekend. So thank you for that. And you'll get extra content and you get keys to Michael's lovely house in Amagan.

Michael Kirk (54:52)

An open invitation.

Michael Wolff (54:53)

Open invitation. Michael, do you want to read this out?

Michael Kirk (54:56)

And we should thank our top level members. And they are. Sandra Clark, methinks Travel with Carl. Andrew Beaver, the Capinator, Harry Clark, Dawn McCarthy, Daniel dog lover. M. Griner, Fulvia Orlando Herbie, Andrew Melor, Laz Conde, Bonzo, Val Love, Francesco Andrea Hodel Bocock, D.C. sharon Shipley, Connie Rutherford, Karen White, Heidi Reilly. Thank you all. Thank you, Devin, Anna and Jesse, without.

Michael Wolff (55:39)

Whom, and none of us could do it without the help of our wonderful executive editor, Hugh Docherty, who stands in when I can't do the Daily Beast podcast and who runs the newsroom with the most extraordinarily robust eye for a good tabloid story. So, Huey, shout out. Even if you do do the podcast in a very strong Scottish brogue Take.

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Michael Kirk (56:35)

Hi, this is Joe from Vanta in today's digital world, compliance regulations are changing constantly and earning customer trust has never mattered more. Vanta helps companies get compliant fast and stay secure with the most advanced AI automation and continuous monitoring out there. So whether you're a startup going for your first SoC2 or ISO 27001 or a growing enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta makes it quick, easy and scalable. And I'm not just saying that because I work here. Get started@vanta.com youm know what's faster than your paycheck?

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