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- [00:00]
Michael
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- [02:23]
Joanna
Michael Joanna okay, first we have to begin with an apology which filled our comments. And I got lots and lots of emails from people quite rightly pointing out that of course and I started this, we got the name of the residence of Andrew, formerly known as Prince Andrew, wrong. He wasn't of course a Frogmore. He was at Royal Lodge, a 30 roomed fabulosity which he's being turfed out of.
- [02:52]
Michael
So that means my joke is ruined about being marched frog marched out of Frogmore.
- [02:59]
Joanna
I know I loved Your being frog marched out of Frogmore. But alas, we'll have to save it.
- [03:04]
Michael
For somebody else who does live in Frogmore.
- [03:06]
Joanna
Yeah, well, I think Meghan and Harry lived in Frogmore. I'm probably going to be immediately swamped with more comments and emails, but thank you for pointing it out. It's very, very helpful. I never want to get things wrong.
- [03:22]
Michael
I don't think you' deliberately got that wrong. I would say inadvertently.
- [03:25]
Joanna
No, no, inadvertently, of course. Michael, did you watch the CBS or Fox Light, as it's now being referred to, interview with Donald Trump?
- [03:41]
Michael
Well, did anyone watch it? Does anyone watch 60 Minutes? But I did see some, a variety of social media clips of the interview. Completely appalling in every way. Not just what that, not just that Donald Trump is of course appalling and, and seems not to remember the, the person who he clearly remembers who he pardoned. But even put that aside, the, the idea that 60 Minutes would do this interview would feel that it could do this interview with any kind of credibility. And let's remember that 60 Minutes had had run an interview with Kamala Harris. They had edited as, as they do most interviews as they have for 30 years. And then Donald Trump had had sued CBS, its six, the network that that 60 Minutes is on. And CBS and its parent Paramount then settled for $15 million a totally ridiculous lawsuit, a lawsuit that they certainly would have won if they had, if they had gone to court. But in order to facilitate the merger that they were then in discussions with to merge with Skydance A, the studio owned by the Ellison family, they slipped Trump $15 million. And I suspect, although we don't know this, that part of the settlement was that they would, that they would do an interview, a segment long interview with Donald Trump in very favorable, as you say, Fox Light terms. So this is, this is appalling. And no one should watch this interview and no one should watch 60 Minutes.
- [05:58]
Joanna
I think it was the same number that on average watched 60 minutes last season. And of course people watch the clips on YouTube now.
- [06:07]
Michael
But again, it goes to, and I want to make this, this point because I think it becomes more and more glaring. Not and not only the timidity of the media, but the out of itness of network television, cable and network television. I mean they just feel like they're from some other age.
- [06:28]
Joanna
It was also interesting that he knew that the founder of Binance Sisi, who had been pardoned, had only been jailed.
- [06:37]
Michael
For four after saying that he didn't. He had never heard of the man.
- [06:42]
Joanna
Exactly and then forgetting to say, oh, yes, he was actually fined $4 billion for allowing money laundering on the platform by Iran, by Hamas and by Al Qaeda.
- [06:59]
Michael
Right. So the, the, the right response from the, from the interviewer would, would, should have been, what the hell are you talking about, man? But of course, that was not the response.
- [07:13]
Joanna
Well, we want you to interview Donald Trump because that is an interview I would watch with great interest because you do know all the right questions. And of course, we have more questions for you to ask Melania, which we'll be getting to later in the show. And I guess there's much more to pick apart from the, from the Trump interview. But we're not going to do it here. Instead, we're going to talk about something which preoccupied people, certainly since last Wednesday, which is the JD Vance of it all. I know we promised we were going to talk about Russell Vogt today, but actually we're going to push that off to later in the week because the J.D. vance, Erica Kirk, Usha Vance story seems more of the moment.
- [07:56]
Michael
No, I did a brief little Instagram post about, about this and it got a million and a half views. So I, and, and I think it's one of those, those stories in which people say, can see. I think it's, it's remarkably transparent. What's, what's going on here. J.D. vance was spoke at a Turning Point USA. I was going to say concert, I don't think we call them concerts, although they are, they appear to be as though a concert. So this conference convention. So he spoke there and in the course of his conversation, in the course of his presentation, he said that he wished his wife Usha, whose, whose parents are Indian and she was raised as a Hindu. He wished that she would convert to Catholicism, as he had done. I think that this is kind of rude, to say the very least. Also unnecessary on so many levels. Why would you do that? Why would you say this publicly about your wife?
- [09:22]
Joanna
He said it in answer to a question, right, which someone said, you have an interfaith, interracial marriage. Is your religion ahead of your wife's religion as you raise your children.
- [09:35]
Michael
So he threw her under the bus, in common parlance, or sent her to the back of the bus, as it were. The brown person. I mean, astounding. I mean, there are an uncountable number of people in the United States of America in 2025 who are in marriages that cross religious and ethnic lines. This is not a complicated thing. This is one of those things that we understand as part of human Interaction and human understanding. And I would go so far as to say that if that is an issue in your marriage, things may not turn out so well. And in most marriages it is not an issue. And I suspect, here's the other thing here. I suspect it's not an issue in the Vance's marriage. I suspect that this was a, that J.D. vance is one of the most shape shifting politicians of our time and probably among the most cynical. This was a give, a give to the MAGA people.
- [10:58]
Joanna
So he's doing this to rally support from the MAGA base.
- [11:02]
Michael
Yeah, I think what is going on now and what is playing out behind the scenes is as we move toward Trump's to understand, to the, to the power vacuum that a lame duck second term president inevitably creates within people trying, trying to fill this, the MAGA people are going to be more and more trying to triangulate the heir apparent who is J.D. vance. And as the MAGA people become more extreme, more, more focused on white preference, I mean, effectively as they become more racist, more anti Semitic and more about closing borders, that puts J.D. vance into an increasingly difficult position. He can't, he probably can't, he can't hope to succeed in Republican primaries if he loses the MAGA base. And that's, that could very well happen. Therefore, to speak to the maga, MAGA base, to throw them a bone, the bone became his, his brown wife. But in what I'm saying, what I was saying is that, is that I suspect, number one, you would never ever say this in public about your wife. Even the creepiest person would not say this, say this. So what does that mean? Either it means he, he, he is out the creepiest kind of person, or he and his wife have triangulated this themselves. So again, that this is a cynical gambit, he told her. And I actually suspect this is it. They plotted this out. He has the presidency they see in possible reach, but in order to get there, they have to do this. So they sat at the kitchen table and he said, or she said, you got to throw me under the bus.
- [13:21]
Joanna
It's absolutely fascinating. And their marriage itself is particularly interesting because we know that her parents were Democrats. She is incredibly highly educated. Yale undergrad, Yale Law School. She was a Gates Fellow at Clare College, Cambridge. She's not someone you would think of as being in any way leaning towards maga, though she did clerk for Justice Kavanaugh and Justice John Roberts.
- [13:53]
Michael
Well, let's, let's make the distinction between leaning toward power or leaning toward maga. So you're Leaning. They're leaning toward power. But in order to get to that power, you have to go through maga.
- [14:05]
Joanna
It's obviously, she's given up her job to travel with him and to look after the kids, which I totally get. And yet, in terms of the photographs that you see, she looks more and more miserable. And you can't always tell, of course, but I'm always mindful of how Princess Diana was using photographs to tell the story of what was happening with her. And then Prince Charles, like the picture of her sitting in front of the Taj Mahal on an India trip, very much alone. And her signaling was, charles is having an affair with Camilla. I'm here on my own, and I'm lonely. And utchevance, having started out looking sort of cheerful, looks thinner and smaller and more haggard. She hasn't had, as some of us predicted, a sort of transfer to the maga. Coding for how women turn up. Like Kimberly Guilfoyle, who started natural and became drag queen.
- [15:09]
Michael
We have two views. You think that the marriage is heading toward the crapper, which is perfectly valid. I think that they're in it together and plotting to achieve the presidency.
- [15:26]
Joanna
I've no idea if the marriage is.
- [15:28]
Michael
In the crapper, but you just described that was. I mean, you described. I mean, Diana, you know, that's the portrait that you've painted. That it could. That it is. It is more likely leaning in that direction, or the possibility is that is leaning in that direction. And I'm saying the exact opposite.
- [15:48]
Joanna
At the end of the day, what is their pillow talk?
- [15:54]
Michael
I am saying that their pillow talk is about. Is about power. We can taste it. All we. All we have to do is bend this way and bend that way and, you know, do what? Endure what we have to endure. I mean, I mean, I don't think. I think. I mean, let's look at J.D. vance and remember, changed his name, changed his religion, changed his entire political bearing. Remember when Trump was Hitler, now Trump is the savior. I literally do not think he cares. I mean, I think that this is all about the getting from point A to point B with. With him. I do not believe he believes any of this. I. I believe that he thinks Donald Trump is a. Is. Is, if not Hitler, certainly a Cretan. You know, the truth. The truth is that J.D. you know, J.D. vance wrote a very, very intelligent book. He wrote it himself. He is demonstrably a nuanced thinker. So the fact that he's in this position, that he is now as the butt boy to Donald Trump, is not what a nuance is, not the position a nuanced writer would end up in, except if he has a grander plan.
- [17:36]
Joanna
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- [19:37]
Michael
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- [20:59]
Joanna
@Mintmobile.Com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com and Michael and I are back inside Trump's head. So do you think when they're shutting down at night in their bedroom in the observatory, he's saying, oh my God, I was so right. Of course, he's the new Hitler. What a nightmare. How much longer are we going to have to put up with this?
- [21:28]
Michael
No, I think it's much more nuanced than that. I think they're plotting every single day what this person said to that person, what that person said to that person and what we have to do on an incremental basis to parry, to neutralize, to advance.
- [21:46]
Joanna
And the Hindu faith, I was talking to Indian friends about this over the weekend, is a very pragmatic religion. It's not proselytizing in the way that JD Claims that Catholicism is, although I don't actually think Catholicism is proselytizing like that. He was sort of claiming that it was duty as a Christian to tell others and convert them, which I grew up in the Church of England. It was never part of our message, though I get the remission trips if you're a Mormon and it's more of an evangelical trait which he grew up in.
- [22:17]
Michael
Yeah, no, no, it's completely more of a. Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's, it's, I mean the whole thing is peculiar and trying to play any, any advantage.
- [22:28]
Joanna
Do you think they are the most power hungry couple in dc?
- [22:34]
Michael
No, I think that the DC is full of power hungry people and I think that's what's going on right now. As soon, you know, Donald Trump, we, the, the, the inside circle of republican ambition begins to see the, the, the vacuum created by Donald Trump that he won't run again, even if he is trying to obscure that fact by, by announcing here and there that, that, that A third term, that there is a world of a third term. You know, I mean, he's, it becomes, it becomes important for you to try to distract from the fact that you are a lame duck. So I think that's partly what's going on there. Although at the same time recognizing that this is Donald Trump. So we don't know what will happen. But, but assuming we're on a, we're, we're on, on an historical term timeline here, the midterms will happen and then we will begin to prepare for who will be the nominee on both the Democratic side and the Republican side. And so power, there are going to be a lot of power hungry people on both sides, Democrat and Republican, who will begin to make their moves.
- [24:02]
Joanna
So let me ask you something, because the one thing that we haven't picked up on around their marriage, which the Internet was absolutely full of over the weekend, was his hug with Erica Kirk.
- [24:15]
Michael
Yeah. No, I mean, I mean, I don't think if we follow your path for their marriage, then yes, the storybook, so to speak, ending would be for J.D. vance to marry Erica Kirk. That would be the ultimate, the ultimate shape shifting power move.
- [24:44]
Joanna
There were a lot of behavioral experts online over the weekend analyzing and breaking down the hug. Her long fingernailed fingers in his hair, his sort of patting her back. I mean, it's very, well, it's very hard to have any idea what's going on inside someone else's marriage. Right. No one knows.
- [25:07]
Michael
Well, we've, we've, we've just presented two options of what might be going on inside this, this marriage.
- [25:14]
Joanna
Well, and there may well be a third option that we have no idea about. Perhaps Usha is having a wildlife on the side. She's certainly not giving up that vibe. She's giving off a very obedient wife vibe.
- [25:25]
Michael
Well, I mean, I think that's part of the, part of the plot from, from, from my point of view. You're, from your point of view. It's, it's part of the, you know, the Stockholm syndrome.
- [25:38]
Joanna
But, well, just another, just another room one longs to be a fly on the wall on.
- [25:45]
Michael
But you know, you know, I mean, recognize what's at issue here. I mean this person has come in a very, this is, J.D. vance has come in a very, very short period of time to within the grasp of the ultimate.
- [26:03]
Joanna
No, that was the brass ring. The brass ring is right there for him and he's reaching for it.
- [26:08]
Michael
What has he done to get there so far? And what would he do to get the Rest of the way.
- [26:14]
Joanna
And who else is he up against?
- [26:16]
Michael
Yeah, and I think one of the things, I mean he is clearly up against and clearly has to deal with a fast morphing, transmogrifying MAGA movement. So maga, which used to be exists just to be the, the, just to express its loyalty to Donald Trump and to be a very efficient list for Trump merchandise, is now becoming, becoming something else. And you can see breaks all over the place with Donald Trump. Breaks on Epstein, breaks on Israel. Marjorie Taylor Greene is, is bolting from the barn door. Tucker has become some extreme version, extreme even for maga. And the Nick Fuentes thing the other day, I mean, actually introduced Nick Fuentes, an unreconstructed, anti Semite, pro Nazi, ish, Incredibly gifted social media person and indeed.
- [27:39]
Joanna
Founder of the Gruipers. Right.
- [27:41]
Michael
Yeah, I'm a little vague on exactly what that is.
- [27:45]
Joanna
I think they are pretty racist Nick Fuentes supporters. But Nick just did. Nick as if I know him. I've, I've never come across him. Just did a big interview with Tucker Carlson.
- [27:57]
Michael
Yeah, no, I mean huge. Has enormous resonance already in the Republican Party of people trying to reject this and sort of very clearly articulate the split in the Republican Party between the MAGA party. So Vance is the one. Is the guy who has to somehow navigate that for. In order for him to become the ultimate nominee. I mean, it's very possible that Tucker is in this fight. I'm sure he is. Whether he ultimately. Yes, I'm sure. Whether he ultimately gets in or not. I'm sure he hasn't decided, but, but he is testing that clearly. And in order to do that, you would have to succeed to the right of J.D. vance.
- [28:54]
Joanna
So they're all swimming as far right as they can and then the goal will be to come a bit more central once the election hits.
- [29:05]
Michael
Yeah, well, I don't know. I mean, I mean the primary dynamic, you don't know what that, what that is yet going to be. But the primary dynamic could be extremely. An extremely right dynamic, a MAGA dynamic. Those are the people who are most, most passionate about.
- [29:26]
Joanna
Do you think J.D. vance will. Could be popular enough?
- [29:31]
Michael
You know, I mean, I find him very uncharismatic. I find him a little creepy. I find, I find that the, you know, the cynicism kind of hardly below the surface. I think he's a phony and I think that in today's world is something that's hard to navigate when you are not legit. On the other hand, to be perfectly honest, I think Tucker is a phony on this. I mean, I know Tucker. I've known him for a long time. I'm actually quite fond of him on a personal basis and we should spend some time on that because I think that journey from country club Republican to far right, anti Semite, racist, Nazi, whatever he is now is an interesting journey. But I actually have spent a lot of time with Tucker and I have always found him in person to be actually reasonable, funny, sensible, everything that he is not in his new Persona.
- [30:47]
Joanna
So it's a very cynical way to whip up people who weren't always voters.
- [30:57]
Michael
Yeah. And I think it's responding to Donald Trump, who is, you know, and that's the confusing thing because Donald Trump is the ultimate cynical person while at the same time actually being himself.
- [31:14]
Joanna
It's such a confusing combination.
- [31:17]
Michael
It says, though, what he is. He says, I, hey, I'm cynical. I would do anything. I'm not hiding, I'm not hiding this in, in, in any way. And the other people are saying, no, I'm not cynical. I am, I too, I truly believe this. And I am, I am, you know, a, you know, a confirmed misogynist, racist, whatever. And that's the different thing that Trump is truly transparent and these other people are not. And they're making it up and hiding.
- [31:50]
Joanna
Well, it'll be interesting to see whether or not people resonate with that or whether or not they understand the level of cynicism and whether or not they, they want that, because at least Trump is an entertainer, whereas the rest of them aren't. There's Nothing entertaining about J.D. vance. He's cringe.
- [32:10]
Michael
Well, Tucker is an entertainer.
- [32:12]
Joanna
Actually, Tucker is. That's true.
- [32:13]
Michael
I mean, Tucker is, you know, Nick Fuentes is incredibly, I mean, you gotta stop yourself when, when you, when you listen to him because you kind of go, oh, this is, you know, and you're following along and thinking, you know, time is passing nicely and I'm occupied. And then you think, oh, my God, this is, you know, I mean, I mean, he's going to start killing the Jews any minute. Let's go back to Nick Fuentes in another episode soon because he is this really emergent, kind of extraordinary, not to mention heinous voice.
- [32:55]
Joanna
We can do that, Michael. Hold on. We're just going to have a word from our sponsors.
- [33:01]
Michael
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Joanna
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- [33:31]
Michael
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- [34:03]
Joanna
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- [36:18]
Michael
Obviously, that's why a reality television star is the President of the United States.
- [36:23]
Joanna
Yeah, but that was at least 14 seasons of television. This is different. Nick Fuentes would never get on broadcast television, but it turns out he can thrive online. So can Tucker, who used to be on MSNBC and then he was on Fox before he got tossed in the deal over the Dominion voting machine settlement.
- [36:44]
Michael
You forgot cnn.
- [36:45]
Joanna
Oh, and he was on CNN as well, was he? I'd forgotten he was on cnn. So these, these voices can't survive on the traditional broadcast media anymore, but they don't need it because they're online.
- [36:56]
Michael
Traditional broadcast media voices can't survive on broadcast media anymore.
- [37:04]
Joanna
And now it's time for our Ask Ask Melania segment. This is where we ask viewers and listeners to write in with your questions for Michael to ask Melania, our first lady under oath because he's begun an anti slap suit against her. Michael, do you just want to explain to people briefly what that is?
- [37:28]
Michael
Well, briefly, it is illegal in the state of New York to sue people for defamation with the only intent. Intent not of winning your lawsuit, but of shutting them up. And Melania Trump and her lawyers have threatened to sue me for $1 billion for what I have said about her relationship and Donald Trump's relationship to Jeffrey Epstein. And so instead of apologizing and paying them the $1 billion as they want, I in fact turned around and sued them.
- [38:11]
Joanna
So this is the opportunity for you to ask your questions about the First Lady. You can ask Michael to ask them on your behalf. So, first question, and this is from theresbob. Could the first lady as a wife have her husband a President committed. If she could prove his mental incapacity, could Melania have him committed? It would also tear up the prenuptial.
- [38:37]
Michael
And I actually think the answer to that is no.
- [38:41]
Joanna
It's a bit like a plot line from the diplomat.
- [38:44]
Michael
Yeah, I think it is. It is that. I mean, there. There is a constitutional framework in which to declare the president incompetent, but it requires. It requires the cabinet, not the spouse.
- [38:57]
Joanna
And it's the 25th amendment.
- [38:59]
Michael
Yes.
- [39:00]
Joanna
Susan Zacharison says Virginia's suicide proves that all the money in the world can't heal trauma. And then Bettina 8688 says, I wouldn't be surprised if Trump demolishes the entire White House and relocates the United States Capitol to Florida. How would you feel about that? Palm Beach? Palm Beach?
- [39:23]
Michael
Well, I. I would be surprised.
- [39:25]
Joanna
You would be surprised.
- [39:26]
Michael
But, you know, I've been surprised many times in this long saga.
- [39:31]
Joanna
Well. And it's one of the ways that Trump keeps people's interest. Right. By surprising us. Unexpected moves every day, possibly every hour. So, Michael, very exciting. We will see each other live on Wednesday for our first live event.
- [39:51]
Michael
What are you wearing?
- [39:52]
Joanna
I don't know what I'm wearing. I noticed we're both in full colors today. What. What color brown is that? I got your pants wrong the other day. I said they were chocolate, and you said, no, no, they're tobacco. Tobacco. And you were right. What. What color is that?
- [40:05]
Michael
I'm afraid this may be tobacco, too.
- [40:07]
Joanna
Oh, you're. You're mainlining tobacco. There's a lot of tobacco going on. I don't know what color this is, but I like it. And it feels fally. It's got a slight plaid to it.
- [40:18]
Michael
But live seems to demand some other thought, and we can't. I can't go like this. Live. Life is live.
- [40:26]
Joanna
But you're not going to wear your cardigan.
- [40:29]
Michael
No. I think you have to show up on stage in a. In a. In a proper suit.
- [40:33]
Joanna
I'm quite surprised that no fashion designer has yet approached you to be in a campaign, a sort of New Yorker campaign where you're wearing a cardigan. I mean, it's an unlikely. You're an unlikely model, and yet everybody would recognize the value of a male cardigan.
- [40:52]
Michael
Are there cardigan makers? If there are, I'm. You know, call me Mr. Rogers.
- [40:59]
Joanna
I think there are probably a lot of ladies out there knitting you cardigans.
- [41:05]
Michael
Bring it on.
- [41:06]
Joanna
And there might be gentlemen, too. Actually, I don't know why I'm being sexist about that. It's easy how one falls into these tropes. Anyway, I don't know what I'm wearing yet. I'll think about it, but I'm very much looking forward to it and getting questions from the audience too.
- [41:23]
Michael
Great. I I will see you on Wednesday.
- [41:26]
Joanna
I will see you on Wednesday. Go back to your lovely house and some nice home brewed coffee and don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. Subscribe to the podcast. We are independent media so your support really means a lot to us as do your comments and leave us a review on Apple, Spotify and wherever else you get your podcasts. Thank you for joining us. If you have been as our first lady would have us say Beast. And thank you to our Bee Beast members, Herbie, Andrew Mellor, Sandra Clark, Bonzo Val Love, Francisco Bocock, D.C. karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea.
- [42:06]
Michael
Hodel and thank you Devin, Anna Jesse.
- [42:15]
Joanna
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Michael
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Joanna
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- [43:44]
Michael
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- [44:34]
Joanna
Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber.
- [44:37]
Michael
Subscribing is the best way to feed.
- [44:38]
Joanna
The beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast.com membership podcast and sign up today.