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- [00:00]
Michael Wolff
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means half day. Yeah, give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront.
- [00:23]
Commercial Announcer
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- [01:00]
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- [02:02]
John Avlon
Where are we on the Epstein files?
- [02:04]
Michael Wolff
Among the things that we certainly know is that Donald Trump's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein was much closer than than anything he has ever represented and that I'm trying to be careful here. Donald Trump was involved in Jeffrey Epstein's lifestyle.
- [02:31]
John Avlon
Michael Wolf.
- [02:33]
Michael Wolff
Joanna Coles. Happy Merry Christmas.
- [02:36]
John Avlon
Thank you. I was going to say happy Boxing Day because we're recording this on the morning of the 26th.
- [02:42]
Michael Wolff
And Boxing Day is, is your holiday. It's not our holiday. Well, what is Boxing Day?
- [02:49]
John Avlon
Boxing Day is a British tradition because in grand families, like if, you know, think Downton Abbey, obviously the staff were working flat out all Christmas Day to provide a suitably opulent Christmas feast. And so Boxing Day, after they'd cleared up and swept up from the family, Boxing Day was the day they got off and they could unbox or they could open their gift, which was extra money from the family they worked for.
- [03:19]
Michael Wolff
I, I once went to actually a Boxing Day dinner at a grand house in, in your country. And I've remembered it ever since. It was like, like this is what Christmas. This was what Christmas should be. This is what families gathered around welcoming other people into their midst. Should be. So go figure.
- [03:46]
John Avlon
Okay. Well, usually Boxing Day people go, there's a lot of hunting on those big families. You know, there's often a Boxing Day hunt.
- [03:54]
Michael Wolff
No, this was actually after, after the hunt, which I did not go on.
- [03:59]
John Avlon
Okay, was it a hunt with horses or was it a walking hunt?
- [04:04]
Michael Wolff
I believe it was a walking hunt.
- [04:07]
John Avlon
Okay. Okay. Well, it's, I will say I didn't grow up doing that, but I have done it occasionally and it's enormous fun. And then you get a flask of something called bullshot, which is basically bouillon with. Or broth with vodka.
- [04:22]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, I, I had made signals that I would have liked an invitation, but to this hunt, but no one invited me. Well, I was ignored about this. Yes.
- [04:34]
John Avlon
Because people will be terrified at the idea of you having a shotgun in your hand. I mean, this is a man who can't drive. You can barely walk 200 yards when you're, you're like, where am I? Where am I? So I think it's better not to give you a shotgun. That would be my. Anyway, it's Boxing Day and how do you think it is waking up on Christmas morning at Mar A Lago? We know the President was there because we saw him looking frankly quite bored at Christmas Eve dinner. Thank you to all the people that posted their videos of Mar a Lago, which we watch with enormous interest.
- [05:14]
Michael Wolff
Well, then he apparently spent Christmas Eve night posting on Truth Social, I think over a hundred posts. So I assume that he sat up in bed and just went crazy.
- [05:28]
John Avlon
So we saw him having dinner on the Mar A Lago patio with Melania, first lady, lest anybody needs reminding because she's not there very often. And his father in law, Victor Canavs, or Navs, who I Find a fascinating character. He's only two years older than Donald Trump. He's like a smaller, squatter version of Donald Trump in terms of Melania marrying her father. But what a journey he's had. I mean, he grew up in communist Czechoslovakia and was a car dealer. So presumably.
- [06:06]
Michael Wolff
And as did Melania grow up in. But Melania had communist Eastern Europe.
- [06:12]
John Avlon
Right. But Melania spent less of her time as an adult under communism. And here Victor Navs is sitting opposite the president, President of the United States who's miraculously married his daughter. And there he is at Mar a Lago. What an incredible journey.
- [06:30]
Michael Wolff
No, well, you know, I mean, it's a whole subtext of contemporary history. The women, the Eastern European women who became models, who went to the west and all. You know, I think that was part of the goal was to try to try to marry someone and improve your station. Well, and improve her station.
- [06:56]
John Avlon
She definitely improved her station. But what was notable about the videos that people were posting from the event, and I think this was a combination of members and people who were serving at the event, was how animated our first lady looked with her father when we are not used to seeing her looking remotely animated.
- [07:17]
Michael Wolff
And just to set up, set the scene. So they are on the Mar A Lago terrace. I imagine it's about 75,5 degrees. It is filled with other members. We're in the high season now. Actually it's peak Palm Beach. Yes. And why these people are not having their, their Christmas Eve with their families, we can, we can only guess. But Donald Trump is where he always is, at the table in the center with a, with a red rope around his table. Now, why there is this red rope around his table is kind of confusing because the table is right in the center of everything and, and everyone is. I think, I think it is clear to everyone that this is Donald Trump. The red rope is certainly not protecting him. I guess it's actually.
- [08:18]
John Avlon
Well, maybe it's like the brim of Melania's hat. It gives him a sort of perimeter around which she shouldn't lean in.
- [08:27]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I don't know. And everybody, everybody on the terrace comes up to him. It's not as if. Stay away. Actually, actually it's. It's come a little closer is what the rope means.
- [08:40]
John Avlon
Well, what was so fascinating about it was that he looks very bored to be sitting with his wife and father in law. And then every now and then. And it's unclear if this is true because politicians do this all the time. And I know he's not A traditional politician, but where they pretend that they see someone in the crowd and they kind of wave and he does a lot of looking bored and then suddenly animated and doing his fists of. Holding his fist up and pointing at people, which I'm assuming are other Mar A Lago guests.
- [09:11]
Michael Wolff
No, it's a Trump. It's a. Yeah, it's a Trump thing to recognize people constantly looking. You know, even I remember in the. In the old days, before he was done or before. Before there was any possibility that he would be the President of the United States, I used to see him out in New York on occasion at night, and because we were acquainted at some minor level when in rooms of strangers, he would see me, as I say, a minor acquaintance, and his face would light up. So that always is that strange thing about who you know, about seeing someone, you know, about having the importance of knowing someone. The idea that you're anonymous is anathema.
- [10:08]
John Avlon
That's a very interesting observation. It's a very American thing. I think I remember there was a character who descended on London in the 90s called Michael Vermeulen, who was the American editor of GQ magazine, who I knew very well. Right. So very entertaining character, very lively. Came to an untimely and unfortunate end, which I'll come to in a second. But one of the things that fascinated British people about him was at the time there was a club, I guess the media equivalent of Mar A Lago, perhaps in the center of soho, called the Groucho Club. And Michael would often have a booth or a table there for lunch, and he would walk around the entire restaurant saying hello to people at the tables. And people were fascinated by this because it turned out he didn't know any of these people. But he would go round to say hi to people, introduce himself. Hello, I'm Michael Vermeulen. And it was just fascinating to British people who, like I say, who is that fellow that has just introduced himself? Because that's so culturally weird to. To a British person to do that. In fact, you want to be anonymous if you're British. So anyway, he came to an untimely end, unfortunately.
- [11:20]
Michael Wolff
He also.
- [11:21]
John Avlon
He became.
- [11:23]
Michael Wolff
He became. Yes, and weight. He got to be very, very fat. Matter of fact, I saw that the arc of his. Of his weight gain, which was kind of extraordinary.
- [11:35]
John Avlon
Well, his weight gain was because he fell and hurt his ankle and wouldn't get it treated and couldn't walk, you know.
- [11:43]
Michael Wolff
But he became the editor of British gq and actually basically on. Under his editorship, that became Extraordinarily successful magazine. Quite separate from the American gq.
- [11:58]
John Avlon
True. And I noticed he would notice that we're both wearing Boxing Day casual today. You don't have one of your cardigans on. But I do have a cardigan. I don't have a blazer. In honor of the fact that it's the holidays and we're doing this remotely and talking about people losing weight. There was a fascinating article in the Wall Street Journal about the president of Belarus who is trying to do a deal to come out from under sanctions. He refers to himself as the only dictator left in Europe. And John Cole, who is known to both of us, has been doing the negotiations between America and Belarus. But what's fascinating about it is that the president recognized that John Cole had lost some weight, which in fact, you can tell in the photos of him recently. And he admitted he was on Zepbound, one of the GLP ones. And it now looks like one of the deals is going to be around the fact that they can get him some GLP1, so he too can lose weight.
- [13:01]
Michael Wolff
Now, John Cole, this is interesting. A minor note here. Is the husband of Greta Van Sustern, correct. Who is the, the old FOX News. Well, she became a, she was a legal analyst on Fox News and then she got a prime time or maybe the 7 o' clock anchor slot. Very popular for quite some time. And Coles lawyer has become kind of a significant unknown but significant Trump advisor. So he was brought in and during the campaign, I kind of tracked his, his whereabouts because he was always brought into all of the debate prep sessions.
- [13:56]
John Avlon
Oh, interesting. And of course, he made his money. I used to know them at one point. And we've slightly lost touch, though. I must get back in touch. But he was known as, I think he was the first lawyer that got one of the really enormous settlements in the tobacco cases. So every year he gets an absolutely ginormous check. And they have an absolutely beautiful boat, which was the sister boat to the honey fits that the, the Kennedys had.
- [14:23]
Michael Wolff
Honey Fitz was John F. Kennedy's grandfather, of course.
- [14:27]
John Avlon
Okay. Thank you for, for putting that. But they have a beautiful.
- [14:31]
Michael Wolff
And the former mayor of. And a former mayor of Boston.
- [14:34]
John Avlon
Right, right. Okay. We slightly digressed. We've slightly digressed, except it turns out.
- [14:41]
Michael Wolff
To be this before, before we leave, before we leave, John, John Coles, just to give him some props here, he had a terrible fight during one of these debate prep. Debate prep sessions with Stephen Miller. And John Coles was on the side, relatively speaking, to the extent that anyone can be in Trump world on the side of the angels. And Stephen Miller was, of course, course, the absolute Antichrist.
- [15:17]
John Avlon
Well, segueing on from Antichrist, we could note that the Cabinet Christmas cards this year have been unusually religious.
- [15:29]
Michael Wolff
You know, I, I, I, I wonder. There is a point here. So, so this is not just like, I mean, let's, let's be a little more Christmassy. I mean, these are, these are, these greetings from Hegseth and Christy Noem. These great Christians of our time are kind of extraordinary, certainly, certainly over the top and, and make that assumption that this is a Christian nation and we are all celebrating the birth of our Savior. And the government of the United States is, is, is, is involved with that celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, which is of course not. Or as a whole bunch of people have pointed out, this is pretty unusual, if not downright un American. So what's the point of this? Yes, No, I mean, you know, I mean, the point is, again, this, this very concerted bow to this, to a, a bulwark of the, of the conservative Trump movement, which is evangelical America.
- [16:56]
John Avlon
Right. And Christian nationalism as seen through the eyes of Erica Kirk now and obviously a former husband, Charlie Kirk. And you know, I say this as someone who joyfully went to Christmas Eve mass and belted out the Christmas carols at the top of my voice, but there is something ominous, almost threatening about the message coming out from Pete Hegseth. Today we celebrate the birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Pete Hegseth wrote, I'm quoting from the New York Times here. May his light bring peace, hope and joy to you and your families. But somehow it seemed ominous. And then Marco Rubio. The joyous message of Christmas is the hope of eternal life through Christ, Mr. Rubio said, which feels very religious for a secretary of state.
- [17:40]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. And of course, neither of these, of these two men wrote these posts themselves. They ordered this up. I said, give us, go over, go over the top on, on Christ. Just, just, you know, lay it out there, make it a, make it go full Jesus.
- [17:57]
John Avlon
They would have said, yeah, and Joy to the world. The U.S. department of labor put out a Joy to the World sort of Christmas post with Let earth receive her king. And again, it just sort of a card full of white people and harking back to a fantasy of America that never was, but of children's books.
- [18:21]
Michael Wolff
So at any rate, we know, and certainly Donald Trump was not in a candlelight service on Christmas Eve. So what was he doing? This is what I'm trying To imagine Donald Trump's Christmas morning. You wake up many, many people. The traditional Christmas morning is you wake up with your, with your family and exchange gifts. Can we see Donald Trump in that setting?
- [18:55]
John Avlon
Well, no, we cannot. No, we cannot.
- [18:58]
Michael Wolff
So what do we think that he did, did he have a Christmas breakfast?
- [19:03]
John Avlon
Did he have a Christmas burger? Well, I think he was watching television, right. He wakes up and his banks of televisions are still going because he didn't switch them off the night before unless someone slips into his room and switches them off for him. But we know he's coming.
- [19:18]
Michael Wolff
He locks his, his bedroom door.
- [19:22]
John Avlon
So he's, he's also been up half the night truth socialing, as you say, put out a hundred posts. So he's in a, a sort of post truth social sweat and probably wakes up. Yeah. Certain where he is. Do you think, do you think it takes him a couple of seconds to reorientate himself?
- [19:44]
Michael Wolff
Well, I don't know. I mean he's only ever two places. It's not as if this is, it's a confusing schedule for him. He's in the White House or he's in Mar a Lago. He's in Mar a Lago and I think they're probably both very, very similar. I think he arranges these things to basically look the same and he does the same thing. So he gets up and he starts. What's the most important thing to Donald Trump? What is his lifeline? Calls. He makes calls. He makes calls, takes calls and he makes calls and he gets on the phone and he says, what's happening? How's it playing? And well, which is all, which is all. All a invitation to talk about him, of course.
- [20:40]
John Avlon
Correct. Do you think people will have told him the truth about the ratings for the Kennedy Center Honours which he emceed this year? Indeed. He opened with a 12 minute speech which CBS, and this is significant obviously because of their, they're owned by David Ellison as part of Paramount and they're part of the deal for Warner Brothers, which I want you to come onto and give us an update with. But CBS put out its televised Kennedy Center Honours without mentioning the fact that Trump has changed the name to the Trump Kennedy Center Honours and the Trump Kennedy center and sadly it had a 35% percent dip in ratings from the previous year.
- [21:28]
Michael Wolff
You know, the thing about television ratings is they're, they're, they, they're broken down into such increments that you can always find good news. So someone would have gone through this and said, we are up in the.
- [21:46]
John Avlon
Sort of 18 to 24s.
- [21:48]
Michael Wolff
Well, they're probably not up in 18 to 20.
- [21:52]
John Avlon
Maybe they're up in the sort of 75 to 85, you know, CD counties.
- [22:00]
Michael Wolff
Yes, some increment they would have, they would have found they only good. They certainly would not have gone to Trump and to announce that terrible ratings and that in that the show, the show that he had emceed the, this, his, his, his dream. I am the emcee of a network show. Actually he sort of was the emcee of a network show many, many years.
- [22:30]
John Avlon
But he may miss it. He may miss it.
- [22:32]
Michael Wolff
I'm sure he does. But they would not have told them that this was you were that it was a flop, which it was.
- [22:41]
John Avlon
So I wonder how, how does David Ellison react to the fact that they didn't call it the Trump Kennedy center and that they cut the president's 12 minutes speech down to two minutes given that he's hustling as hard as he possibly can for Paramount to take over Warner Brothers Discovery, which is up for sale.
- [23:01]
Michael Wolff
Okay, and let's, I mean the context here. There are two bidders for Warner Brothers Discovery. There is Netflix, who is now the top bidder and has the accepted bid. Warner Brothers Discovery has announced that they will be sold to Netflix Paramount. And the Ellison family has made a hostile offer, which is to say they have gone directly to the Warner Warner Brothers Discovery shareholders and said our offer is better and our offer is better, not least of all because we will have our offer approved by the Trump administration and the fcc, whereas Netflix will be tied down in regulatory issues for the foreseeable future. So that's the, that's the, that's the lay of the land at the moment. In order though to pull this off, of course, the Ellisons have to continue to curry favor with Donald Trump, but they have to curry favor with Donald Trump at the same time. Not making themselves into a universal laughing stock. Now the other, the other day they canceled a segment on 60 Minutes about immigration, which would have likely offended the Trump administration. And that has now put them in the crosshairs and made them not only a laughingstock, but, but, but seem to be utter dupes of the Trump administration. Therefore, therefore they now have to lean over in other ways not to be perceived as just lackeys, Donald Trump's lackeys.
- [25:04]
John Avlon
Well, and David Ellison, son of Oracle founder Larry Ellison, says that his father.
- [25:12]
Michael Wolff
Second richest man in the world.
- [25:14]
John Avlon
Second richest man in the world, has his father will backstop this personally with 40. I think I think he said $44 billion. What does that actually mean?
- [25:26]
Michael Wolff
Well, he said, I mean, I think. Well, yes, that's the language that they use. A personal, that he will personally guarantee. We don't know what that means. I mean a personal guarantee in, in a, in a technical, technical terms was, is that you put up the following collateral against this and if for some reason you renege on, on this, this debt, well, you know, tough luck and we come and take your property and, and that's, and that's it. We don't know if that's, if that's actually what's, what's going on. And it just could be a personal guarantee. I personally guarantee it.
- [26:09]
John Avlon
And if you don't collateral with his islands in Hawaii.
- [26:15]
Michael Wolff
Well, or nothing. Islands or nothing. Just trust me. Yes, I guarantee it. Trust me. So we don't know is Trump in.
- [26:25]
John Avlon
A difficult situation here? Because we know that Ted Sarandos, the co CEO of Netflix went to see Trump and Trump gave him a favorable report. But we also know that he's, he's, that Larry Ellison is part of the TikTok deal that Donald Trump has brokered. So and we know that at one point Jared Kushner, Trump's son in law's private equity company Affinity Partners was going to be part of the Ellison deal. Then he dropped out. So if you had to put money on this at this point, who would you say?
- [27:00]
Michael Wolff
And just part of the background here is that, is that all three companies, Paramount, Netflix, Warner Brothers Discovery have hired virtually anyone they possibly can in the Trump orbit to advise them. They've got competing advisors, a long list of Trumpers trying to, well, each of them trying to make money off of this deal, but with their function being to represent what each company's interests to the President of the United States.
- [27:42]
John Avlon
And who said he wants to be involved in the decision too?
- [27:46]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, I think, I think I, I think what you're seeing is an auction now. Now in theory, this should be the company that should win this deal, is the company that should offer the shareholders of Warner Brothers Discovery the most money. That's how, that's how mergers and acquisitions work. That's how ultimately a hostile takeover, the, the only way a hostile takeover works, I'm offering more money, therefore the shareholders should vote for, for us. But there's a third in this deal, a third element and it is who is going to offer the best deal to Donald Trump.
- [28:32]
John Avlon
So, right, that's, so I think, I.
- [28:35]
Michael Wolff
Think that's what's going on right right now Trump is conducting an auction, and it will be, you know, Does Paramount deliver something advantageous to Trump, or does Netflix deliver something even more advantageous to him?
- [28:58]
John Avlon
And, of course, what's fascinating the media is the character of Barry Weiss, who's squeezed in the middle here between her owner and David Ellison, who bought her own startup. The Free Press, installed her as editor in chief of news. And of course, she made the decision to drop the segment about America sending people to the jail in El Salvador under the pretext that they didn't have anybody from the government speaking to defend the policy, which internally people have been saying, including the producer of the segment. This is a political decision.
- [29:39]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, well, understand, I mean, so she took this job. I mean, the terms of the job to be. To be the head of a news division of a major network. The assumption there has always been, yes, you have to. You have to have a relationship, and you're going to have to negotiate with the suits who you ultimately report to, but also with a great degree of independence. I mean, it's somewhat like the independence that one assumed if one became the Attorney General of the United States and ran the Justice Department. You had, yes, you had a relationship with the President of the United States. Yes, there were political concerns and issues, but nevertheless, your independence was largely guaranteed by tradition, if not statute, and sometimes statute. And that's the same as a director of a network news division. Your responsibility is. Your primary responsibility is to the news rather than to corporate interests. Now, this is a fine line, and it's. And many. It has been crossed many times in many instances, and it always is kind of difficult to sustain, but in some measure, it has been sustained. Bari Weiss, however, comes into this job knowing that her independence is substantially more circumscribed than probably any other, the head of any other news division. And in fact, that's one of the reasons she gets the job. She has never run a news division. She has. She has never worked in television. She doesn't know any of the. She. She doesn't come into this job equipped with any kind of. Of. Of experience that would allow her to. To capably defend herself. Well, that's, that's the deal. And, and the deal is understanding that the Ellisons own this lock, stock, and barrel. It's their money. It's their place. It's not an issue of shareholders. It's not an issue of a network that has a long tradition. That tradition ended with the Ellisons. The Ellisons took over. It's their money, and she would have known that. The Ellisons are in this battle and, and their allegiance is to, in order for them to win this battle, they have to cultivate Donald Trump. Therefore, Therefore it's, it's, it's, it's just almost inconceivable why Barry Weiss or anyone would have taken this job, except that people are, you can say, you might say they are ever optimistic or they are wholly craven.
- [33:09]
John Avlon
What was fascinating about the decision to pull the segment from 60 Minutes is that no one was paying attention to the fact that it aired in Canada. I mean, again, sort of inexperience in understanding how these things work. So the show that was essentially banned in North America becomes available in Canada. Ergo, it's available anywhere you want to see it online. And so Paramount's been rushing around trying to close it down, but once the cat's out of the bag.
- [33:40]
Michael Wolff
No, and I would imagine that Bari Weiss, and I would imagine she's pretty alarmed about what happened, what has happened now and I imagine the way it happened is that she got a call and it's not impossibly, the call was directly from David Ellison and he said, you know, get rid of this. What are you doing?
- [34:07]
John Avlon
Well, they've been busy advertising it all over social media too. So he may well, yes, and he.
- [34:13]
Michael Wolff
Probably raised his voice and he probably was pretty unpleasant about the whole thing.
- [34:21]
John Avlon
I have had those calls from, from magazine executives when they've seen pieces that they weren't comfortable going out. So I'm, I'm sympathetic to Barry and.
- [34:31]
Michael Wolff
They are, and they are never, and they are never pleasant, those calls. And now it's on, it's on Bari Weiss. She is the, her credibility, which she didn't have to begin with and I guess was conscious that she had to build up, has now taken, to say the least, a substantial hit.
- [34:53]
John Avlon
And I think it's also the nature of the job. Right. CBS News has gone through six heads of news in the last six years. So it's not a job with a, with long standing potential necessarily.
- [35:12]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I mean, I can again, I can't imagine why anyone would take these, take this job, which is a whole kind of subtext of many jobs. Why would anyone take a job in the Trump White House, for instance, knowing that if you look, I mean, we're not talking ideology here, we're talking careers. Looking at all of the, pretty much 100% of the pass of the personnel in, in Trump's political life that has all for everyone come to some form of ignominy. And now a word from our sponsors.
- [35:55]
John Avlon
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- [36:50]
Joe from Vanta
Hi, this is Joe from Vanta. In today's digital world, compliance regulations are changing constantly and earning customer trust has never mattered more. Vanta helps companies get compliant fast and stay secure with the most advanced AI, automation and continuous monitoring out there. So whether you're a startup going for your first SoC2 or ISO 27001 or a growing enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta makes it quick, easy and scalable. And I'm not just saying that because I work here. Get started@vanta.com hey Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.
- [37:21]
Michael Wolff
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- [37:40]
Commercial Announcer
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- [38:23]
John Avlon
And Michael Wolff and I are back Inside, where else? Donald Trump's head on Boxing Day. Very hard at this point not to bring up the specter of Rex Tillerson, who was, you know, famously the CEO of Exxon and who in fact, when he took over as Secretary of State, I think with full sincerity, expecting to be able to do the job, ended up being fired as he was sitting on the loo.
- [38:51]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, again, again and again. You know, McMasters, who was that? Goldman Sachs guy whose name now I can't remember which Goldman Sachs.
- [39:03]
John Avlon
Gary Cohn. Gary Cohn survived. Gary Cohen survived, though. He was one of the few. And, and Steve Mnuchin survived, the finance guys.
- [39:11]
Michael Wolff
Well, Steve, I, I don't think Gary Cohn survived. How can you say that? He was, he was treated miserably, insulted constantly and, and ultimately pushed out. And.
- [39:27]
John Avlon
You know, he survived to tell another tale, Gary Cohn. And also he emerged as a slight hero because he was the guy that kept taking pieces of paper off Trump's desk so that Trump wouldn't know these things, these issues even.
- [39:41]
Michael Wolff
Well, I, Gary Cohn, Gary Cohn has gone on to try to justify this and to make himself into, into a hero. So if we think of Gary Cohn as a hero, it's only because Gary Cohn has said he's a hero. But, but other people more objectively would say Gary Cohn was a classic Trump overreacher and dupe fair.
- [40:04]
John Avlon
And he took the job because he knew he wasn't going to get CEO of Goldman Sachs.
- [40:10]
Michael Wolff
And, and where is he now? Where is a man, a man without portfolio?
- [40:17]
John Avlon
Aren't we all. So we've managed to get this far without mentioning your favorite person, Jeffrey Epstein. And where are we on the Epstein files? We've still got incredibly a million files still to drop. Whatever the files are, whatever the files are and what are they at this point? We have no idea.
- [40:39]
Michael Wolff
We, we have, we have no idea here. I mean this, this, I mean this announcement, and it was oddly phrased, and we've discovered a new million files. And, and what does a million files mean? Does it mean a million documents? Who counted them? Who, Who? You know, there, there's a thing, I mean there I, I think there are, there are, there are two themes which we ought to keep our eye on here. The one of them being that, that I think the Strat, the clear cut strategy of the Trump White House might have been just to, we're going to, you know, we're stuck here. We got, you know, our Republican allies screwed us. They voted for this, you know, this release the files business and we don't really know what is in them and we can't really know. So the way we're going to deal with this is just, is just a dump to release this stuff in such a chaotic, disorganized manner that by the time people figure out what's in them, the headlines will, the moment will have passed. The headlines will have, will have passed and we will, we will deal with this all later on. There's just too much here for anyone to come up with a cogent picture of what, of what happened or even any one specific instance of what happened versus so many other instances or half instances. And we don't even know if each individual document is, is a true document or not. We've already seen many things that are, that are, that are at best implausible.
- [42:38]
John Avlon
Well, the weird thing is the fake doc, some of the fake documents are getting as much attention as the real documents, which is bizarre. But we do know that the FBI have been working overtime. A desperate call beseeching agents to work extra over the holidays went out because the so much to redact. And we also know that this being Trump's doj, that there is a level of incompetence in the redacting, which online hackers quickly discovered that if you just take the document that's been redacted and put in Microsoft Word, it's unredacted.
- [43:18]
Michael Wolff
Right. Which, which is another story that does actually doesn't that, that something else that yet distracts from this, from the, the, the import of, of, of this overall picture or the specific aspects of this overall picture. We don't know what's going on here. Everything just part of the chaos. Now there's another part of this too, another thematic part that I think, I think we ought to think about, which is that this idea of, the very idea of release the files, I mean that has become the thing. Release the files and then we will know what we don't know. Release the files and all mysteries will be cleared up. Release the files and every conspiracy that we have imagined will be revealed. Release. And this turns out to be as we might have imagined with any kind of, kind of forethought. Ridiculous. I mean it means nothing. Release the files means nothing. Means that you're going to have, have a, a sea of, of unvetted information, a sea of disorganized information, a sea of contradictory information that will answer nothing.
- [44:44]
John Avlon
So, and you made the point that if there was an official investigation into the files, they would have had to be pre sorted and put under themes or subject matter or whatever, what is the answer to this now? Because nobody is going to. No single person is going to be able to go through every single file. I'm sure that the big news organizations have got teams who are working on it. But how should people approach this at this point?
- [45:16]
Michael Wolff
You know, I don't know. And even, you know, it should be said that even official investigations don't necessarily solve this problem. And we can go back there was the Warren Commission. You can't get more of an official investigatory body than that. And all that ultimately accomplished is to, is to define all of the parameters of the limitations of an investigation and of the holes in what we did not know. And so therefore, all of these years later, we have, in fact, we set up the paradigm for the central conspiracy of our time and the model for all conspiratorial thinking. That didn't answer the question, and I don't know what the answer to the question, how do you solve a mystery? I don't know.
- [46:21]
John Avlon
Well, we do know that.
- [46:22]
Michael Wolff
And it also is, you know, particularly suited to, I mean, a particular problem when often when there is no mystery to solve or when you think a mystery is much greater than what is in front of your face. You know, I mean, the Jeffrey, the mystery here is that we assume Jeffrey Epstein was at the center of a, of a worldwide conspiracy, that, that he was. That he trafficked girls for the purpose of controlling powerful men. I mean, I think that is the, the underlying assumption here.
- [47:10]
John Avlon
Oh, and that he was Donald Trump's closest friend for at least 10 or 15 years, that the two of them hunted women together. And Donald Trump has denied that friendship and said that it was completely overplayed.
- [47:23]
Michael Wolff
No, and then we, we should look. I mean, I think, I think so far, what do we, what do we know here? And among the things that we certainly know is that Donald Trump's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein was much closer than, than anything he has ever represented and that it certainly crossed over that Donald Trump was involved with. I'm trying to be careful here in Donald Trump was involved in Jeffrey Epstein's lifestyle.
- [48:09]
John Avlon
Well, they hung out with models together. I mean, you're always talking about it, that models was the currency of the time. So successful men displayed their success by being surrounded by models.
- [48:19]
Michael Wolff
So to look, I mean, the questions are still, and we might as well, what did Donald Trump know about what Jeffrey Epstein was up to? When did he know it?
- [48:36]
John Avlon
In the meantime, we have an email from Andrew, formerly known as Prince Andrew, to Ghislaine Maxwell, which I thought would be worth reading out because it gives you an insight into the British Royal family, which as you know, I'm not obsessed with it, but I'm curious about anything that gives us insight into actually how they live and think as opposed to what we were fed by the palace officials. But I thought. It's not a very long one, but I thought I'd read it out. It's sent on the 16th of August 2001, I'm up here at Balmoral Summer camp for the Royal family. Balmoral is this huge grey castle in Scotland that the Queen was said to like best of all her royal residences. And my experience of having spent a lot of time up in that area in Scotland is it's constantly raining. There's a fret that hangs over almost all of Scotland for most of the summer anyway. Activities take place all day and I am totally exhausted at the end of each day. The girls, that's Eugenie and Beatrice, his daughters, are completely shattered and I will have to give them an early night today as it is getting tiring splitting them up all the time. How's la? Which is obviously where Guillem was living. Have you found me some new inappropriate friends? Let me know when you are coming over as I am free from 25 August until 2 September. I want to go somewhere hot and sunny with some fun people before having to put my nose firmly to the grindstone for the fall. Any ideas? Gratefully received. See ya. A It's just.
- [50:16]
Michael Wolff
Well, let's move first. Let's. Let's wonder what did. What do you think Andrew's Christmas was like?
- [50:23]
John Avlon
Well, I think it was probably his last Christmas in Royal Lodge. So not good. And his brother the King was roundly criticized for putting Eugenie Princesses Eugenie and Beatrice very prominently in the Christmas Sandringham. The Royal family go to church on Christmas morning. It's always televised. And very prominently though, there was no sign of Andrew. But the two princesses were front and center, which caused an uproar in Britain. They were furious about it because they feel that they're part of Prince Andrew's grift.
- [51:06]
Michael Wolff
So the popular view is that they should also be wiped out of this.
- [51:12]
John Avlon
Yeah, the popular view is scrubbed. Scrubbed from the royal lists, scrubbed from getting free apartments for peppercorn rents, as they're called in Kensington Palace, I believe. And so there's. It backfired the decision to, I think, say that the children are not of the man, as it were, and that they have Independent lives and as far as we know, are perfectly decent girls. I've met Beatrice a few times. She seems utterly pleasant and hard working. Shouldn't be penalized for the sins of.
- [51:48]
Michael Wolff
The father at some point. Let's have a discussion. I'm not sure how interesting it would be, but nevertheless, is Andrew, what has happened to Andrew, a greater threat to the monarchy than Charles's divorce from Diana and Diana's then media campaign against him?
- [52:12]
John Avlon
Well, it's very interesting question because people are less tolerant of, of the monarchy now. And Andrew's foibles, including one weekend where he went through apparently 40 prostitutes in Thailand while he was on official business for his mother, I think are much more egregious obviously than, than Charles apparently continuing a relationship with the woman that.
- [52:43]
Michael Wolff
Is now, now, now, now we see that as much as, as less egregious. But then in the, in the innocent 1990s, that was that, that seemed to be pretty perilous for Charles and for the monarchy.
- [53:03]
John Avlon
Yes, I think that's true. And then Diana's death was also perilous. Do you remember the moment when the Queen had to come out and stand in front of Buckingham palace and curtsy as the funeral cortege passed by?
- [53:16]
Michael Wolff
I remember, I remember less the moment than the movie about the moment.
- [53:21]
John Avlon
Well, I might be remembering that too. I mean, there's the crown and then there's the movie. What was the movie called? There was the Crown, the brilliant Netflix series by Peter Morgan. And then there was the movie. I can't remember what the movie was called.
- [53:34]
Michael Wolff
What was that movie called? And which is called the Queen. Yes, it was. And Tony, Tony Blair was the, was the primary figure in that and I think in that movie.
- [53:44]
John Avlon
And that was the message by Michael Sheen.
- [53:49]
Michael Wolff
I, I, well, I can see him clearly and I know that actor and I would recognize that actor anywhere, but I don't know his name.
- [53:59]
John Avlon
I think it was Michael Sheen. It's a very good movie. And there's a great moment where there's just a stag standing on its own at the top of the hill, which seemed to carry a lot of resonance. Anyway, something to watch this holiday season.
- [54:13]
Michael Wolff
Just, just that guy, the guy who played that role, he was the emcee of the GQ man of the Year awards when I got a Man of the Year award along with then the, then Prince Charles.
- [54:31]
John Avlon
Oh, is that right? So you and Prince Charles shared a stage. Did he turn up?
- [54:36]
Michael Wolff
He did, he did. And we had a, we had a conversation.
- [54:40]
John Avlon
What did you like you've really buried the lead here. Yes, please. Michael Sheen. It's Michael Sheen. I was just checking. Yes, go ahead. Michael shared a stage with Prince Charles.
- [54:53]
Michael Wolff
I and this is what Prince Charles said to me as follows. He looked at me up and down and then said, I know your tailor.
- [55:08]
John Avlon
What a great line. That's fantastic. That he recognized. Do you want to give your tailor a shout out?
- [55:13]
Michael Wolff
I, I, I, why not? It's Anderson and Shepherd. A sounds pretty. Very, very respected. London Taylor. Who Charles and also Charles's Taylor.
- [55:29]
John Avlon
By special appointment. By royal appointment. We've given great recommendations for holiday viewing the Mar A Lago videos or the Queen or the crown. And you can look at it through the Epstein lens now. I mean they may have to do another spin off of the crown which is just Andrew the Falling crown, the.
- [55:52]
Michael Wolff
Broken crown and suits. We now we can, we can recognize, we can recommend a really choice brand of suit.
- [56:03]
John Avlon
Oh, and I thought you meant the TV show suits. And I was like, what? Because it's got Meghan Markle in, which is another part of the.
- [56:09]
Michael Wolff
No, my Charles is Okay.
- [56:13]
John Avlon
All right. Okay. Well, Michael, happy holidays. We've got lots in store for people next week. Very exciting. We've got a two parter on Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with Donald Trump where we go back to the beginning and really chronicle the chronology, I guess of.
- [56:30]
Joe from Vanta
Yeah.
- [56:30]
Michael Wolff
So forget, forget the files. The millions have come. This is, this is all you need to know.
- [56:36]
John Avlon
This is all you need to know.
- [56:38]
Michael Wolff
And once more and gratefully a commercial break.
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John Avlon
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Michael Wolff
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John Avlon
Just 10 bucks for your phone service at Boost Mobile. Yeah, I totally do. Yeah, I totally do.
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Michael Wolff
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Joe from Vanta
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Michael Wolff
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Michael Wolff
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Michael Wolff
Have the cut resistant gloves they need at the start of their shift. And you can end your day knowing they've got safety well in hand.
- [57:36]
Joe from Vanta
Call 1-800-GRAINGER click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [57:45]
Michael Wolff
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Joe from Vanta
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Michael Wolff
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- [58:49]
John Avlon
And Michael and I are back inside Donald Trump's head. And also just reminding you there are very few seats left for 21 January, 92nd Street Y on the Upper east side of Manhattan where you can come and see Michael and I discussing live whatever. I guess the news of the week will be.
- [59:12]
Michael Wolff
And I will be wearing an Anderson and Shepherd suit.
- [59:15]
John Avlon
And I will not be wearing an Anderson and Shepherd suit. I have no idea what I will be wearing. But I'm glad you've given some sufficient thought to it. And I guess we'll also be talking about it will be a year to the day since Donald Trump was inaugurated. We'll be talking about what his first year has been like.
- [59:31]
Michael Wolff
And a year to the day plus one.
- [59:34]
John Avlon
A year to the day plus one. And the decision of all those business people to appear in the inauguration quite as prominently as they did. Jeff Bezos, Tim Cook, Sergey Brin, Mark Zuckerberg.
- [59:49]
Michael Wolff
And are they regretting that now?
- [59:51]
John Avlon
And are they regretting that now? Well, happily, Jeff Bezos is enjoying himself with his big 10 gallon cowboy hat in Aspen.
- [60:05]
Michael Wolff
And on that note.
- [60:09]
John Avlon
Happy holidays. Do we want to leave our viewers and readers with a religious message? We do not. We believe in the, in the, in the separation of church and state. So if you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. We're independent media so we appreciate your support. You can be a beast tier member of our community, which is actually kind of fun. And what else do we need to say, Michael?
- [60:36]
Michael Wolff
And we should thank our top level members. And they are Sandra Clark methinks Travel With Carl Andrew Beaver the Capinator Harry Clark Dawn McCarthy Daniel dog lover M. Griner Fulvia Orlando Herbie Andrew Melor Laz Conde Bonzo Val Love Francesco Andrea Hodel Bocock D.C. sharon Shipley Connie Rutherford Karen White Heidi Riley thank you all. Devon, Anna and Jesse, we are in your debt.
- [61:22]
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- [62:24]
Michael Wolff
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Joe from Vanta
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Michael Wolff
Go to Hero Co and use code FAUL25 at checkout.
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Joe from Vanta
That's fall 25Hero co. All figures are.
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Michael Wolff
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- [63:00]
Michael Wolff
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- [63:23]
Michael Wolff
Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the daily.
- [63:28]
Joe from Vanta
Beast podcast@thedailybeast.com podcasts if you enjoyed this.
- [63:33]
Commercial Announcer
Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the Beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast.com membership podcast and sign up today.