Podcast Summary: "We Know The Sick Secrets of Epstein's World"

The Daily Beast Podcast with Joanna Coles
Date: April 6, 2026
Guests: Supermodels Stacey Williams & Carrie Otis

Overview

This gripping episode takes a courageous dive into the deeply troubling and interconnected world of high fashion and sexual exploitation. Host Joanna Coles is joined by supermodels Stacey Williams and Carrie Otis, both survivors and now vocal advocates for reforming the modeling industry. Together, they dissect the systemic abuse enabled by powerful modeling agencies, reveal how the industry became a pipeline for trafficking, and shine a light on the complicity of both men and women in maintaining predatory systems—connecting these issues directly to the Jeffrey Epstein scandal and ongoing Congressional investigations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Grotesque Organization Behind Modeling's Glamour

• Full-Scale Trafficking Network: The modeling industry wasn't just about individual bad actors like Epstein or Jean Luc Brunel, but an entire organized pipeline trafficking vulnerable girls to powerful men.
  • Carrie Otis (00:00): “There was a lot more organization than I think any of us could comprehend at that time... The modeling industry was and is a pipeline for trafficking vulnerable people to powerful predators.”
• Lack of Protection & Regulation: Despite working with minors, the modeling world has shockingly few rules or protections for young talent.
  • Carrie Otis (03:11): “This one industry…working with the most young, vulnerable workforce is the one industry lacking the same rules and regulations as every other industry...”

2. Firsthand Testimony of Abuse

• Carrie Otis' Memoir & Legal Action: Otis recounts being trafficked at 17, naming her perpetrator (Gerald Marie). She uses new survivor laws to seek justice.
  • Carrie Otis (05:12): "I was trafficked at the age of 17 as a minor through the state of New York...to Elite Model Management and from Elite to Gerald Marie in Paris."
• Stacey Williams’ Victoria’s Secret Story: Williams tells of being propositioned for a midnight ‘fitting’ by a photographer; after refusing, she was reprimanded by her agency and called ‘difficult’.
  • Stacey Williams (11:15): “He had the skimpiest, like a couple of thongs...midnight...he goes, fitting time. And it was midnight. So I slammed the door...and the agency reprimanded me...”

3. Normalization and Survival Mechanisms

• Dehumanization & Objectification: Both women articulate the normalization of sexual harassment, abusive weigh-ins, lack of privacy, and sexualized expectations.
  • Carrie Otis (08:12): “Being put in incredibly provocative situations...comments made about your body, scrutiny, judgment, talk about you as if you weren't even in the room...on a scale at an agency and being told you're fat...”
• ‘Difficult’ Label as a Defense: They explain how being labeled “difficult” by agents and clients was often the result of setting boundaries or refusing abuse.
  • Stacey Williams (22:36): “I made myself disgusting and jokey in order to fend myself off...I said, I’m wearing granny pants with a skid mark. He was enraged…that was me taking my power back in that moment.”

4. Organized Complicity—Not Just Men

• Role of Female Agents and Industry Leaders: Female agency heads and bookers were often complicit, actively funneling girls to predators and maintaining silence.
  • Stacey Williams (19:54): “Faith Cates was running the Next agency...she’s the one that introduced me to Jeffrey Epstein...and Donald Trump was very close to him. And we see her all over the files now.”
• Magazine Editors, Photographers, and Brands: Editors, clients, and brands either ignored or enabled abusive behavior to protect reputations or for artistic justification.
  • Joanna Coles (32:08): “...why would anyone want to use anyone under 16? Why would grown women want to buy clothes from girls who were under 16?...”

5. Current Advocacy and Calls for Reform

• Congressional Oversight: Ro Khanna has put the modeling agencies in front of the House Oversight Committee for investigation; Model Alliance sent letters to the Justice Department requesting a sweeping probe.
  • Carrie Otis (40:01): “It is undeniable in this moment that the modeling industry has been used as a means for human trafficking...the ask...for sweeping investigations...”
• Global Attention, Limited US Coverage: There’s significant international media interest, with ongoing investigations and arrests abroad, but little coverage in the US.
  • Stacey Williams (45:18): “I am doing so much press overseas right now...Latvia, Lithuania...but coverage here is...meager.”

6. The Horrific Legacy of Powerful Men

• Names including Gerald Marie, Jean Luc Brunel, and Helmut Newton are discussed as part of a generation of enablers and perpetrators.
  • Carrie Otis (16:08): “…there was a lot more organization...It wasn't just a Jeffrey Epstein. It wasn't just a Jean Luc Brunel. It wasn't just...There were folks working together.”
• Legal and Criminal Outcomes: Jean Luc Brunel and Jeffrey Epstein both committed suicide in custody; Gerald Marie continues to evade justice in Ibiza, with cases dropped due to statutes of limitations.
  • Carrie Otis (50:26): “Gerald Marie is living his best life in Ibiza...the criminal investigation in France was dropped.”

7. The False Narrative of Glamour

• Juxtaposition of Images vs. Reality: The “glamorous” images were bought at the cost of systemic violence, exploitation, and abuse.
  • Joanna Coles (46:44): “It’s also particularly sinister that so many of these images...have actually been produced with a horrifying sort of network of violence behind them.”
• Patriarchal Beauty Standards: Major brands actively shaped and profited from the premature sexualization of minors.
  • Carrie Otis (48:19): “Let’s talk about who actually manufactured that beauty standard...Elle brands, Les Wexner, Pink, Abercrombie and Fitch...the premature sexualization of minors, of youth, of our children...It’s perverse, it’s an objectification that we’ve normalized...”

8. Remedies and Hope for Change

• Model Alliance: Provides resources, support lines, and activism to protect current and future talent, including a confidential helpline.
  • Carrie Otis (52:13): “It’s the first time in the history of modeling there’s actually a place to call, get support and report if you have sexual...harassment...and really, really plug into a network of good, clean, healthy humans that give a shit.”
• Vision for the Future: Insisting that beautiful, creative images can—and should—be made in environments free from abuse.
  • Stacey Williams (48:12): “You can do beautiful shoots with beautiful women with great talent...and have everyone feel safe, and everyone can make money and sell their goods.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On why the industry is unique:
  Carrie Otis (03:11): “Of all of the industries out there, this one that is working with minors...is the one industry that is lacking...rules and regulations.”
• On surviving through humor:
  Stacey Williams (28:02): “You need gallows humor. Sorry. People will say, ugh. The comments will be, why are they laughing? This is how we survive it.”
• On the aftermath of speaking out:
  Carrie Otis (25:09): “If I wasn’t going to play the game, the game was over. Those who did play the game, especially early on...became the stars.”
• On the romanticized “tortured genius”:
  Stacey Williams (47:51): “This idea that you have to be this tortured soul...to create great art is just...patriarchal in my mind.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – The sinister organization behind modeling’s abuse and trafficking
• 05:12 – Carrie Otis details her trafficking at age 17
• 11:15 – Stacey Williams’ Victoria’s Secret assault and agency retaliation
• 17:02 – Systemic complicity and industrial-scale trafficking
• 19:54 – Importance of female agents in enabling abuse
• 22:36 – Humor and “difficult” label as survival strategy
• 32:08 / 33:06 – Underage modeling and ongoing risks today
• 40:01 – Model Alliance’s activism, call for Congressional oversight
• 45:18 – International media coverage vs US silence; global scope of trafficking
• 50:26 – Legal outcomes for the named abusers
• 52:13 – Model Alliance support services; moving toward reform

Conclusion

This episode is a raw, unvarnished examination of the underbelly of fashion—a sobering reminder of the abuse perpetuated through systems designed to exploit the vulnerable. Williams and Otis offer both harrowing testimony and a path forward: transparency, tough new laws, and solidarity between survivors. Despite decades of silence, the “fog is lifting”; with efforts like the Model Alliance and renewed oversight, there is a vision for a genuinely safe, empowering fashion industry.

For support or to learn more:
Visit Model Alliance and their confidential support line.

“It’s our moment to take back—by having these conversations.”
—Carrie Otis (48:19)