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- [00:00]
A
There was a lot more organization than I think any of us could comprehend at that time. It wasn't just a Jeffrey Epstein, it wasn't just a Jean Luc Brunel. The modeling industry was and is a pipeline for trafficking vulnerable people to powerful predators.
- [00:20]
B
I'm still out here begging Congress to hold these guys accountable, begging them to hold the systems accountable and for transparency from the DOJ and the White House,
- [00:34]
C
I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast. And today we have an exceptional conversation for you with two supermodels. One we've talked to before, Stacey Williams, who's brought with her today Kerry Otis, whose name you will remember from the 80s and the 90s of a, as a huge supermodel astride the world of fashion, of beauty, of glamour, of magazines, and, and who suffered incredible sexual abuse by the owner of the modeling agency that she was working for. And the two of them together are fascinating, discussing the structural issues in the modeling agency. And actually this week they announced that Ro Khanna, the representative from Silicon Valley, has actually got the modeling agencies in front of the oversight committee to really look at how did the Epstein situation happen? How did so many models end up being funneled through Epstein's industrial complex? And the complicity of those working in the modeling industry who mercilessly served up 13 year olds, 14 year olds to rapacious men. Let's get into it. I'm thrilled to be joined by Stan, Stacey Williams, who seems like a regular visitor at this point, and Kerry Otis, who you've brought along. And Kerry, what I really want to do is obviously ask you about your magnificent hair color. We'll come onto that. But what I know we need to do first and more importantly frankly, is talk about the model Alliance. The two of you worked in the modeling business at sort of Peak Model, and as we know, all sorts of disreputable people owned modeling agencies and had fully, intentionally disreputable intentions with the models. And basically they owned the supply chain and the distribution. It was a sort of vertically structured industry. And Kerry, you've been working on this for some time. Why don't you bring us up to speed with where you are and explain to us how the modeling business worked so that basically nobody was protecting young girls.
- [03:12]
A
Yeah. So first of all, it's so, so great to be here. And Stacy, you're a new friend and ally and it's amazing these overlaps that we're discovering as we continue our own conversation. I've been working in the modeling industry for over 30 years and I've seen, I've seen so much. And Sarah Ziff, founder of the Model alliance, got in touch with me after my book was published in 2011. And my book was in part about the modeling industry. The abuses that I had endured within the modeling industry were New York based, nonprofit working to create safer, a safer fashion industry. And if you can believe of all of the industries out there, this one that is working with minors, this one that is working, you know, with that, with the most young, vulnerable workforce is the one industry that is lacking the same rules and regulations as every other industry that's in operation on this planet. It's outrageous.
- [04:21]
C
Ro Khanna, through your work is now Representative Ro Khanna from, from California, from Silicon Valley, is now putting your work in front of the oversight committee. And he said the oversight committee are going to investigate the modeling world. When Stacey was on the podcast, we talked about her experience of abuse, actually at the hands of the president that Jeffrey Epstein, who she was dating at the time and who seemed a very plausible, sophisticated man, which we know he had that side of him, had taken her to Donald Trump's house, where Donald Trump then groped her. And it became clear this whole thing had been cooked up in advance. For those who haven't read your book, Kerry, can you talk about some of the incidents that made you want to reform the industry?
- [05:12]
A
Yes. How much time do you have? The book was before its time. I wrote it because I was a new mother to two daughters. And it was so important that instead of this patriarchal narrative of my public life, that I took that story back so that one day my daughter, if and when they wanted to know my story, it would come from me and my words. Within that book, I called out a known sex offender and he was my perpetrator. And so I was trafficked at the age of 17 as a minor through the state of New York, from San Francisco to Elite Model Management and from Elite to Gerald Marie in Paris, France.
- [05:56]
C
Gerard Marie was married to Linda Evangelista, wasn't he?
- [06:00]
A
Yes. So my book called out the sexual abuse that I endured as well as the systemic abuse that so many of us either endured or witnessed that I think for decades, most of us did our best to normalize very outrageous situations within an industry because we didn't know better. We were so young, we were so intimidated. We were all trying to stay afloat in very stormy waters. And really, let's talk about, frankly, completely inappropriate situations for teenagers to be in. So I've filed under the Child Victim act in the State of New York, because I was trafficked through the state of New York. That's a look back window similar to the Adult Survivor Act.
- [06:54]
C
And this was where there was a brief moment where you could file for things that would traditionally have been dismissed under the statute of limitations. Correct? Right. So there was an open window where women who had suffered all kinds of abuse were able to accuse their attackers. Abusers.
- [07:14]
A
Yes. And the Child Victim act is similar to the Adult Survivor act in that it was a one year look back window period that you could file against and abuse that happened in and around the State of New York. And so it was a similar look back window. So I was able to file under the Child Victim Act.
- [07:35]
C
I was a magazine editor in the fashion world, and I want to come onto the culpability of magazine editors a bit later. But what's so fascinating is the juxtaposition of the glamorous imagery and what was actually going on in the process of making those images. Can you talk a little bit more about that? When you say that teenage girls were being put in utterly inappropriate situations, can you describe some of those situations? Because I think it's hard for people who haven't been exposed to this world to understand what that feels and looks like.
- [08:13]
A
Yeah. I think this will be a shared response. I'll go first, and then, Stacy, you can jump in and give your perspective on it. The inappropriate situations. I mean, we could start in Paris way back when, but it continues, I believe, to this day. I would say from sexual assault in the workplace to objectification, to lack of privacy in changing rooms, to being put in incredibly provocative situations or suggestive images where you're not necessarily clothed and people aren't necessarily giving you privacy on a set when you are incredibly young, to comments made about your body, scrutiny, judgment, talk about you as if you weren't even in the room, that your weight is too much, being put on a scale at an agency and being told that you're fat. I mean, and way back when, you know, one of my first castings for French Elle, when I was 17, the very famous editor of French Elle actually told me, you have to strip naked. Here's a pair of high heels. Put them on and walk down the hall and then walk back towards me. Oh, my God.
- [09:40]
B
And that was.
- [09:41]
C
Who is that, Carrie? Which editor was that?
- [09:47]
B
I know who she means, but I can't remember her name right now.
- [09:49]
A
Yeah, there we go.
- [09:51]
B
That's part of the problem, Joanna. That's why we need the hive mind, because we fill in the holes in each Other's memories. But yeah, I can't remember. But I know who she means.
- [09:59]
A
Yeah.
- [10:00]
C
Cause what possible excuse could they give you for being totally naked and walking down the hallway in high heels? Cause you're never going to do that in the job anyway.
- [10:14]
A
Actually, I challenge that.
- [10:17]
C
Oh, you did end up doing that in the job.
- [10:20]
A
There were so many different situations I was asked. I know. And especially in France, it was like there were billboards of topless girls for girls. I'm talking 16 year olds for. You know, it wasn't. Nobody wore sunscreen back then. It was probably baby oil, right? You know, at the seaside. But as well as being told here in your list of castings, 10 o' clock at night, you need to go to this photographer's apartment to show him your portfolio. So it was like walking through landmine of really inappropriate places, situations, people you would meet that no child on their own without somebody there to support them, protect them, should never have been in that situation. And that was common in my experience. Stacy, what about you?
- [11:15]
B
Oh, for sure. And you know, my first, I think my second trip was for Victoria's Secret. And the photographer, he. He insisted that he was in the house with me. They had rented three houses. He insisted that my bedroom was right next to his. I was 18 years old. You know, when I got to New York, I didn't know what a passport was. So this is my second trip. I remember having such terror and anxiety just about the flight alone. And I was afraid to fly. And so I remember someone knocking at the door at midnight. I was scared. There were lizards around. I was like, where am I? But I'm also excited. It's victorious too, because I can't believe it's me. It's like the light in the dark. You and I have spoken about this, Joanna. And I open the door and has the skimpiest, like a couple of thongs and some of the really sexiest lingerie from Victoria Stegers and a camera and it's running and he goes, fitting time. And it was midnight. So I slammed the door in his face and went back to bed. And I complained about it for the rest of the trip. And I got back and the agency reprimanded me and they said they're not going to use you again because they said you were too difficult.
- [12:25]
C
So you only worked for Victoria's Secret once?
- [12:29]
B
Yeah.
- [12:31]
C
Wow. Because you rejected the photographer's advances when he approached you at midnight, knocking on your bedroom door, what the agency told
- [12:40]
B
me was you just ruined everything because you were so Difficult?
- [12:44]
A
Yeah.
- [12:45]
C
Kerry, were you thought to be difficult, too,
- [12:50]
A
later on? Absolutely. But in the beginning, my situation was a little bit different in that I was a teen runaway. I had dropped out of school. I did not have a lot to fall back on. I was already really isolated, extremely vulnerable. I like you, Stacy. I didn't have a passport. I'd never been to New York City. I mean, I lived in the suburbs of Northern California. So for me to go from San Francisco to New York was unbelievable. Like, huge and new. And then the same thing, like, you know, to have a passport and to go. And my lawyer has said, how did you get past Homeland Security? Somebody signed the papers for me to go from because I didn't have parental consent.
- [13:44]
C
I'm curious about. You know, you both start off, and Stacy and I have talked about this before, you're both incredibly young. You're incredibly naive about what? About what the modeling agency is about. And we now know, with hindsight, in particular, men who were owning these model agencies wanted sex with the models, that they were trafficking the models to their friends. And that on top of it all, was this strange, very aspirational, glitzy, glossy lifestyle look, which utterly was in contrast with what was going on behind the scenes. So, Kerry, talk about your first kind of few shoots where you were getting your head around this and realizing what was going on.
- [14:37]
A
Yes. And just also to go back. So was I labeled difficult because of the vulnerability and the take, the textbook taking advantage of a young girl who is vulnerable, who clearly doesn't have a parent, doesn't have money. I was in too vulnerable of a position to be difficult in the beginning. The thing that happened for me, though, that became difficult, not in the way of, like, I'm refusing you, but it began to break me. It's like those first months of being terrified, disoriented, confused, drugged, literally. You know, all of the things. Being in a foreign place, not speaking the language, having to navigate the metro, being sexually assaulted every night. When I went back to the place I was staying, I lasted several months under that condition before breaking. And breaking for me was severe depression. Crying so hard, eyes too swollen to actually be photographed. Like, it was so difficult. And it was later on that I became. That I became difficult and outspoken.
- [16:00]
C
And, Kerry, who were you being sexually assaulted by when you said that you went back to the place that you were living every night? Was it.
- [16:09]
A
It's public knowledge and I've written about it, and that's Gerald Murray, who I don't think any of us realized at the Time. But there was a lot more organization in what was happening with us models and where we were working and where we were trafficked to and whose set we would get onto. There was a lot more organization than I think any of us could comprehend at that time. It wasn't just a Jeffrey Epstein. It wasn't just a Jean Luc Brunel. It wasn't just. There were folks working together. And again, back to this conversation. The modeling industry was and is a pipeline for trafficking vulnerable people to powerful predators.
- [17:03]
C
It's so sinister the way you describe it. And of course, Gerard Marie had a modeling agency. Jean Luc Brunel had a modeling agency. Donald Trump had a modeling agency and has talked braggingly, boastingly about owning the Miss Universe competition, where you could come in and watch the contestants changing and they would be naked and he could just walk through the changing area. And you talk about that, too. Stacey, you were also very vulnerable. I mean, you came from Pennsylvania. You've talked about what it was like arriving in Paris, and yet you also saw the sort of weird dichotomy between the glamour and the grit. So, Kerry, what you're saying and what is perhaps most disturbing is the premeditated nature of. Of the use of these models. Stacey, was this something you were aware of when you were starting to model? Did it sort of dawn on you that this didn't feel entirely right?
- [18:19]
B
Yeah, so I didn't frame it the way, you know, Carrie and I frame it now. I didn't see it clearly. I normalized it. That said, I had responses that I think would have shown that somewhere I understood maybe on a. Not on an intellectual level, but at a. On a safety level, maybe that something wasn't right. And, you know, my. The second night I was in Paris, I had just arrived, and Paris is like a, you know, a huge. It's one thing from. To get to New York, but then another country. The language, everything Carrie just described. I mean, you really have. You're in culture shock to start. Okay? And then, you know, this industry is a completely other culture and very dark. I was on hold for British Vogue, and the agent said, listen, Patrick, it's with Demarchelier. And, you know, you have to have dinner with him. He wants to talk about it. And I was like, he wants to talk about it. And I was like, oh, I guess that's how it's done, you know? And I went to this dinner and there were, I want to say, at least three, probably four other young girls there. They may have been models. I don't know, they didn't look like models to me, but they were very young. And then Patrick was on the other side of the table and the agent was there next to a woman, by the way. And we should get into that, that it's not just the men on these agencies, but the women that I know that were asking to explain their relationship with Jeffrey.
- [19:54]
C
Faith Cates was running the next agency,
- [19:58]
B
Next Next, and he's the one that introduced me to Jeffrey Epsteinian. And Donald Trump was very close to him. And we see her all over the files now. And she stepped down in February. So there are, you know, as Steinem said, you don't subjugate half the world without some internalization. We can get into that in a little bit. But this night out in Paris, so, you know, Patrick looks at everyone at the table and says, you know, and he's. He's just got this. He's leering, he's sleepy. He was always like that really sleazy and gross and like, just. He made my flesh crawl. And instead, I want.
- [20:31]
C
Yes, I was just going to say we should. I don't mean to interrupt you, but it's hard to imagine how prestigious it was to shoot with Patrick de Marsheller. I mean, he was the top of the top of the fashion photographers at that point.
- [20:48]
B
And I'm there and like, my first job, I was lucky. I mean, Azzedine Alaia started fitting on me and putting me in Michaud right away. My first actual shoot was French Vogue with Norman Parkinson. And then I was on hold for this, you know, this British Vogue spread with Patrick. And they're like, but you gotta go to dinner. And so as I said, I'm sitting there, there's three or four other girls. I don't think they were models. I didn't get the impression. I remember one particular long, straight hair. I just have this sense, this visual kind of of her long, straight hair. And she was a Mormon. She was from Utah. She was like 14. And Patrick said he was leering, he was gross. It was just like. It wasn't. It was not. No woman could have been dropped into that situation and said, like, this guy's behavior is okay, you know, and even the body language, the way he was relating. And he said, I want each girl at this table, we're going to go around, and each of you has to describe what underwear you're wearing. And immediately he saw these girls, like, oh, this is like a sexy thing. I have to answer in like a sexy way. You saw them clicking into the Response that they understood they were supposed to give, that we understood we were supposed to give. And this is a moment where. This is another moment where I ruined my career, so to speak. You know, I wasn't arriving with a degree in feminist studies, but I was actually in real time figuring out what feminist studies are about. And each girl went around the room and they said, I'm Lacy Thong. And they kind of gave an answer that was supposed to excite him or whatever he was looking for. And they got to me. And my response, this is what I did. I made myself disgusting and jokey in order to fend myself off. And I said, I'm wearing granny pants with a skid mark.
- [22:36]
C
Ugh, Right? Hilarious. Good for you.
- [22:40]
B
And he. Anyone who's known me forever know that I am really scatological too. So I won't torture either of you with that. Maybe I will carri offline, but later. But, but, but anyway, so I. And, and he. I saw the look on his face. He. That was me taking my power back in that moment. That was the only way I knew how to do it was to be disgusting and gross him out and tell him in a way that he did not have that power over me, you know, and that was a teenage girl, you know, so that was my version of it. And he was enraged. He was enraged, he was angry. He was like, what did she. And I remember looking at the woman, like asking for translation a little bit, because I don't think he fully grasped it. And then when she. And she. The agent was like, embarrassed and uncomfortable. I wasn't playing along or whatever. He was enraged. And I'll tell you when, you know the other job that I did when I. The first week I was in New
- [23:36]
A
York, your job, did he keep you on the job?
- [23:38]
B
No, the options were off immediately. And I cannot tell you how many versions of this story that I have. Marcus Spahr, who's passed. I have a version of this with Marcus Spahr, who I was working with non stop for Elle magazine and a bunch of other stuff. And he looked at me on point, he's like, I keep booking you and booking you booking, and nothing's happening. Meaning you're not going to bed with me, right? Yep. And I was like, yep. And it's never gonna happen. And I said this to the booker, I said, you know, I've got some pressure yesterday on set and you need to know it's not gonna happen. She's like, well, she's like, fine, but I mean, if you can sleep with him and have fun and get the work. Why wouldn't you? And I said, well, I'm repelled. He's married and that's not my fucking job.
- [24:21]
C
Right.
- [24:22]
B
All the options came off. All the options came off. A friend of mine started doing them, and she was sleeping with him. And she got some really nice Louis Vuitton luggage out of it too, I might add. I have a version of this with Bill Cosby. I did an episode of the Cosby show when I moved to New York, and I was feeling uncomfortable around him, and I made a joke and. And he really didn't. He got very angry about it with me.
- [24:46]
A
Yeah.
- [24:47]
C
So you made yourself difficult to protect yourself from what you knew they wanted. You put up verbal barriers and you created jokes to keep people away. I'm sure a lot of people listening to this, not in the modeling business, but having to put up with the various creeps in the office have also done this. Carrie, does this sound familiar to you?
- [25:10]
A
So, so familiar. And if we go back to kind of the beginning of my story, those first, that first year in France, the second that I became more problematic because of my emotional state and less sexy to somebody who wanted to continually assault me, and the second that I pushed back on that, I was kicked out of that apartment. I was put up in a teeny, tiny little place. I did not get one more casting again, and eventually I had to go home because that was it. If I wasn't going to play the game, the game was over. And it was really clear those who did play the game, especially early on, those who did play the game, stayed in as the favorites of either the photographers or. Or the agents were the ones that became the stars, you know, and later on, on my own terms, I reentered the industry and was. That's when I was a problem. That's when I was a badass. That's when I was like, nope, I'm doing this my way, if I do this at all. And it was that kind of. But that also had to become this Persona, that part of the supermodel of me was the one that was on the Harley Davidson. And I mean, I was embodying badass at that point. And that was the only way I knew, I knew how safely reenter the industry it was to do it my way. However, even then, I continued to endure disgusting sexual harassment commentary, literally being on a photo shoot with a very famous photographer for a great magazine. And the prompt. The suggestion was in front of a whole studio of professionals, me being a professional as well this man, this photographer coming over and whispering in my ear, I want you to look like I am doing you in the ass. And it was just like, wait, did anybody else hear that? Like, I'm a top bottle. At this point, I'm on all fours. What are you supposed to do with that? But that, too, was commonplace even after I made it. I wasn't expected to sleep with anybody. But what was expected was for me to tolerate that kind of language and insinuation and harassment in the workplace for the majority of my career.
- [27:54]
C
I mean, I'm just trying to absorb that and. And thinking we all need.
- [28:00]
B
Can we break for a drink?
- [28:02]
C
Yeah.
- [28:03]
B
You need gallows humor. Sorry. People will say, ugh. The comments will be, why are they laughing? This is how we survive it. We have gallows humor.
- [28:10]
A
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- [28:25]
C
So can we just talk about the structure again? So, Kerry, you are being sexually assaulted by the owner of the agency that you have been signed by. Can you explain the structural nature of it? So is that then. Are you dealing with an agent who knows you are being abused, raped by the owner of the agency? So you have your own account person at the agency who knows this is going on?
- [28:59]
A
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So in my case, by the time I got to Paris, they owned me. I was in complete debt by design. So any money I would make went into repaying the agency. Of course, none of this was transparent. My passport was taken for safekeeping. All of this moves into the definition of human trafficking. Absolutely. And so that structure was that vulnerability. I had no say. I had no autonomy. I was indebted at that point and pretty much owned at that point, especially that agent, knowing I had nowhere else to go, nobody to call, nothing to fall back on. So very classic situation in terms of who is preyed upon and who is not within the structure of that. You know, he was my agent. But then you had the bookers, so the bookers were usually who you dealt with under normal situations. However, for me, for whatever reason, I was living with the boss. Living with the boss and his girlfriend at the time, Linda Evangelista.
- [30:26]
C
Did she know what was going on?
- [30:28]
A
I can't speak for her. I know in so many ways, so many of us, her included, being young, from another place, we were all doing everything we could to survive. Insanity with very, very powerful, diabolical, sick, narcissistic, misogynistic men.
- [30:54]
C
Kerry, did you come across Jeffrey Epstein in all of this?
- [30:58]
A
Miraculously, he. I did not.
- [31:02]
C
So you just dealt with the others. Jean Luc Brunel, Gerald Marie. Yeah, right.
- [31:08]
A
But to go back to, like there. So there were bookers that I dealt with and there are names. Our survivor groups are still looking for who these bookers were because in our view, they were complicit. They did send us places where harm came upon us. We were. The majority of us were under 18. So, yes, that structure. There were bookers they did know. They didn't necessarily. Even when they saw Jeral doing abusive things or humiliating things like putting us on a scale in front of everybody in the agency and laughing at us that we needed to lose weight, we were too fat to send on a casting for the next two weeks until we dropped weight. Nobody stopped that behavior. I don't think I encountered any male or female that could have stepped in, that did step in when I needed an adult to step in.
- [32:09]
C
And I'm thinking about the culpability of the magazine editors here. So I took over as the editor of Marie Claire in 2006, which was owned by Hearst. And Diane von Furstenberg was the then head of the cfda, the Council for Fashion Designers of America. And she had said there was a strong advisory went out that no one should use models, magazines shouldn't use models, fashion industry shouldn't use models under the age of 16. And I remember thinking, oh, that's so weird, because I didn't have a background in fashion. Why would anybody want to use anyone under 16? Why would grown women want to buy clothes from girls who were under 16? Because the bodies aren't the same. And it just struck me as a disconnect as a new editor coming in, having to get my head around fashion. Is this still going on today?
- [33:07]
A
Yes. And even worse with A.I. i mean, with literally women that aren't women, with women that. With images of fake humans that are so the beauty standards. So, yes, this is still going on. And if you look at even you could look at the wow, a wrinkle cream being represented by somebody who's 19, 20, 21 years old who doesn't have wrinkles. Like, cool, let's buy that. But how does that even make sense? So, yes, the feeding of those images, I believe still absolutely exists today to sell products because. And I also think women are becoming much more savvy. A lot of us want real. We want equal representations of ourselves at these various different ages. So I think that there's some change, but I still think that there's a ridiculous push within a system that attempts to continue to feed us a narrative that's based on what the patriarchy and what a lot of men want.
- [34:20]
C
Right. So let me just take you back to. I'm trying to understand it structurally. So there's the agent who signs you, the. The male owners of the modeling agencies. And then there are the magazine bookers or the fashion clients who are the bookers who are booking you for. For campaigns. And you're saying that they. They were complicit with the agencies in knowing that the girls were being mistreated.
- [34:50]
B
You know, as I'm. I think I told you before, Joanna, there's one very famous photographer used to expose himself in the middle of shoots. Now, there were editors on set, but it was, you know, it was like, oh, boys will be boys. Right.
- [35:03]
C
So, Stacy, are you able to tell us who that was?
- [35:08]
B
Yeah, I don't think this person's still alive, so I probably won't. Everyone shared this, you know, forever. You know, like, we had the underground. Okay. So in the same way that, you know, when the Harvey Weinstein thing blew up, and I have some friends who are famous actresses, one is still suing, I believe her agency for sending him. Julia Ormond is holding CAA accountable. And she said they knew, and they still sent me to that hotel room. I think that's what. I think that's totally relevant and analogous to what was happening in the modeling industry. So when, you know, when that story came out about Weinstein, I was like, oh, my God. Yeah. That was just totally parallel to everything we were. You know, we were living.
- [35:51]
A
This is. It's not a blanket statement to everybody. You know, I think what we're speaking about is specifically the agent, the bookers. Right. But then on the other side, you have the people that are booking for the brands, right? Let's just say that there's enough people on that other side. Right, that are representing the brands that have continued to work with known problematic sex offenders, predators continued. Because of. Because of their fame and their status, and they create great art. And I think this has been something that it's given reason to dismiss. Well, okay, we'll all put up with. He pulls his penis out of his pants and he wants to photograph everybody like that. So there's been enough people, powerful people, that have looked the other way and. Or tolerated or condoned or dismissed it as some sort of genius and insanity. Go hand in hand. Right. And absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
- [36:59]
B
Like, oh, if you want genius, then you put up with all the craziness, and it's like, no, this really isn't. This is patriarchal. This has nothing to do. Jenny Holzer probably never took her dick out, so to speak.
- [37:09]
C
You know, so it was a power differentiation that you're the model, you're the object, you're almost dehumanized, and the people involved in making the images are on a power trip frequently.
- [37:28]
A
Yeah. And it's like, I go to my shoot, like, shooting with Helmut Newton.
- [37:33]
B
Right.
- [37:33]
A
Wow. So, you know, a brand would hire Helmut to shoot their campaign, and you were at the hands of some really sick stuff, and you just had to go with it because you're working with, like, this brilliant, genius man that everybody is just like, he's a God. So you do what? Whether it's like, laying down on a street with your legs splayed open, and whatever it was, you had to do it. And so that's a perfect example of just, like, how many brands worked with Helmut Newton. And Helmut Newton, on one hand, he was an incredible photographer, and on the other hand, you know, wow. Were his images absolutely so disgusting, and did I feel extremely dirty and demeaned and degraded after working on a day with him? Yeah.
- [38:28]
C
Was he cruel as a photographer? Was it the images that he was asking you to do that made you feel like that, or did he make you feel like that, too?
- [38:39]
A
For him, it was more of the images. He was just rather cold. But I can't tell you how many photographers, male and female, extremely cruel.
- [38:50]
B
Yeah, it's true.
- [38:53]
A
I mean, just. Let's just say cruel. Extremely abusive.
- [38:57]
B
Abusive, yeah.
- [38:58]
A
Let's call it what it is.
- [39:00]
B
It's interesting you bring up Helmut Newton because he. Because I mostly did kind of like body stuff and. And Sports Illustrated and everything. And so he liked Amazonian types often, and he pursued me constantly for his books and everything. And I was so afraid to work with him because. But at the same time, I admire. I saw how brilliant he was and how good he was, but I knew that if I was going to be the prop in that situation, I was going to feel really uncomfortable and demeaned. He made me. Knowing how the industry was at that point when he was pursuing me, made me afraid to work with him.
- [39:32]
A
Yeah.
- [39:32]
B
Even though I admired the artistry.
- [39:35]
C
Right, so you've both got long histories of working in an industry which, as you say, still doesn't really have any proper oversight. Where are you now in terms of getting that oversight. And what are you hoping that Ro Khanna, the congressman from Silicon Valley, will be able to do with the oversight committee?
- [40:01]
A
What this moment, for me, what's becoming, I think, more clear for so many of us that have known this within the industry for so long, is that it is undeniable in this moment that the modeling industry has been used as a means for human trafficking, for trafficking vulnerable to powerful predators. And so even if you look at a lot of the victims that are coming out in the files, so many of these instances of abuse of human trafficking came through this central player. That's the modeling industry. Either by luring for hope and fame and fortune and, you know, an amazing career, or somebody actually coming into an agency and becoming a model, which might have been their lifelong dream. That in the absence of this industry and its operators, all of the different players, I believe, and I think others would agree with me, much of these abuses would not have happened. So the ask the letter that we've sent to the attorney general and to Massie and Ro Khanna's for sweeping investigations into the modeling industry and into those that are still operating within the industry, those that are still alive, that are all over the files or that have legitimate complaints against them for these similar harms, because there is a huge industry that is. It has been operating this way that has contributed to the harms of us.
- [41:54]
B
Yeah. And just to point out, as you know, Joanna, I would not have met Jeffrey, nor Donald if it weren't for Faith Cates, the founder of Model alliance, came forward, I think, in the last week or so about how Faith linked her to Jeffrey Epstein. You know, so I've been, you know, beating this dead horse since, you know, before the election about getting transparency and getting the files released. And so that it made perfect sense as I'm still out here begging Congress to hold these guys accountable, begging them to hold the systems accountable and for transparency from the DOJ and the White House, that it made sense that suddenly it completely overlapped with Model Alliance's efforts. And that's how Carrie and I connected. Those women were communicating with Jeffrey and feeling sorry for him right up to within weeks of his passing in a prison cell.
- [42:52]
C
And they were feeling sorry for him in what way? I mean, it's so shocking to think that women would be supplying these men with these young girls.
- [43:07]
B
Yeah. I didn't realize that until I started speaking to Sarah and Carrie a month or so ago. I did not realize that Sarah had also been introduced to Jeffrey via. Or she was introduced by Someone else. But he actually wrote a note to her afterwards and had it delivered to her apartment. And the only person that had her home address was Next Models, which was Faith's agency and how much they directly funneled. I think I was still a little bit in the dark about that. To me, it was somewhat random that I ended up at a dinner on a Sunday night with him and some other men. And then in Donald Trump's presidential suite plaza party at Christmas time with a group of models. And Jeffrey was there, and they were obviously very close. They were one another's wingmen. And that Faith was so close to both of them and in touch with them, probably, I'm guessing, is still in touch with Donald Trump today would be my guess. I don't know. I'm speculating. But. So I think it is all. I think what Carrie and Sarah and the Model alliance has helped me with is recognizing that all of this was even more orchestrated than I ever understood.
- [44:23]
C
Right. Well, and they were just organizing a supply chain so they would spot people in supermarkets or local fashion shows, bring them into the agency frequently see them abused by the modeling agent's owner, in your case, Carrie
- [44:42]
A
and Joanna. This piece, too. Like, we go back to Paris, we go back to Jean Luc Brunel, one of the biggest agents that was actively supplying children to Jeffrey Epstein. And so just even within that arena of just Paris, Jean Luc wasn't the only one. And so there's still. We're just scratching the surface here, but to look to the modeling industry and to begin to say, okay, this needs to be investigated, that is our ask of the Opensite committee.
- [45:19]
B
I've been doing another thing to point out, Joanna, is that you're so faithful and you've been doing this and staying on the drum beat. And I appreciate it. And there are some other folks I've been talking to regularly since I came forward, but with the Iran war and everything, coverage has died down. But what's interesting is that I am doing so much press overseas right now, and I'm talking to journalists from Latvia, from Lithuania, and all of them are saying, and they're listing these bookers and these scouts and these agents out of Paris that we know. And so, you know, and they were. They weren't over there just looking for the next star, you know, more likely at that point, it was just pure unadulterated trafficking. And that was coming through Jean Luc. So I do believe that Jean Luc Brunel was incredibly important in expanding Jeffrey's network into Eastern Europe at the right time. You know, when things sort of opened up over there, horrors. Horrors happened. So I'm speaking to media in France, in Lithuania, Latvia, Norway. I mean, this thing is blown up and people are being dragged out of their homes. They're being arrested. We saw that the former Prime Minister of Norway just tried to take his life because of whatever is being exposed about him in the files. And so it is kind of maddening that the coverage here is still quite meager. I mean, this announcement by Model alliance should be just like everyone should be talking about. You know, the coverage is meager.
- [46:45]
C
And also, we all see these images everywhere, right? They're staring at you from billboards. They're in interstitials on wherever you get your social media. They're on television. They're in the movies, when you go to a theater. So it's also particularly sinister that so many of these images we think of as being beautiful and representing a higher form of life have actually been produced with a horrifying sort of network of violence behind them. I mean, you're both so articulate about it. And also, I guess the other thing that's fascinating is the sort of gobsmacking amounts of money that were around there. I mean, you guys were being paid well, the photographers were being paid stupendous amounts by some of these brands. The big beauty houses, the big fashion houses had enormous budgets for these campaigns. And just this sense of the darkness behind these images that we've all grown up with.
- [47:52]
B
Yeah, it's so sad because, you know, the reality. It doesn't have to be that way. Right. I mean, you know, whatever the art form. Mary Carr has written about this, you know, about how, like, this idea that you have to be this tortured soul, like a Hemingway, and be suicidal all the time to create great art is just like, you know, it's just. It's.
- [48:08]
C
It's.
- [48:09]
B
It's just basically patriarchal in my mind. But, you know, it's.
- [48:12]
C
It didn't.
- [48:13]
B
You can do beautiful shoots with beautiful women with great talent, you know, and have everyone feel safe, and everyone can make money and sell their goods.
- [48:20]
A
Yeah. And two things, you know, one, there's really this public idea that because you're born looking a certain way and you enter the modeling industry, you have a life that is glamorous and you make money. That is the 1%. The majority of models are struggling, experiencing all sorts of injustices in and out of work. And the other thing I just wanted to name as we speak about these images, you know, let's talk about this Wake up. That we're having that these, these images, this beauty standard that's been created that we all bought hook, line and sinker into, especially bringing our daughters into stores like pink. And why not put them in a thong, in a push up bra. Let's talk about who actually manufactured that beauty standard. Literally these brands, Elle brands, Les Waxner, Pink, Abercrombie and Fitch. Do you know how if you really dig deep and look at what they were selling and the premature sexualization of minors, of youth, of our children and how that was what formed so many young people and other ages, standard of beauty. Look at it. It's perverse, it's an objectification that we've normalized and grown so accustomed to. And I believe that we're in a moment, that fog is lifting and we're looking under the hood and it's really ugly. But it's our moment to take back by having these conversations.
- [50:14]
C
Yeah, we should point out that Jean Luc Brunel committed suicide. Like Jeffrey Epstein accused of rape. What happened to Gerald Marie, Carrie?
- [50:26]
A
Wow, that's a good one. Gerald Marie is living his best life in Ibiza. We are waiting to get an extension to serve him in Ibiza. And I think because we're dealing with international law and papers have to be translated properly to be able to legally
- [50:52]
B
serve,
- [50:55]
A
it's been quite the fiasco. But that's so nothing, nothing, nothing's happened. Criminal investigation that was in France was dropped. There were many of us that went over to Paris, survivors of Giraude Marie to testify. It was really grueling testimonies with the child Bureau, the child division of the police, because most of us were minors. So we had to go in and give our testimonies. But it was also part interrogation. Some of them lasted six hours. It was utterly exhausting. And at the end of the day, statute of limitations, nothing happened. The investigation was dropped.
- [51:38]
C
So Gerald Marie is partying in Ibiza.
- [51:44]
A
Correct.
- [51:45]
C
Well, Kerry, bravo with all your work with the Model Alliance And Stacey, I know this is incredibly important to you to keep this in front of people and to get action on it to protect the next generation of models who hopefully won't go through what you guys did. Thank you very much for joining us. And how should people find out? If people want to know more about this, how should they do that?
- [52:13]
A
Yep, we have a support line. We answer so many different questions. It's the first time in the history of modeling there's actually a place to call, get support and report if you have sexual, you know, harassment or sexual assault in the workplace, other things of transparency so you can understand. Begin to know your rights under the Fashion Workers act and really, really plug into a network of good, clean, healthy humans that give a shit.
- [52:47]
C
And as you say, images like that don't have to be produced in the worst possible environment. They can be produced in a perfectly safe and healthy environment. And Kerry, final question. Your hair is fantastic. Is it natural? Is it natural that gray? I know. I want Kerry's hair. It's so fabulous.
- [53:07]
A
I can say it's finally just mine. It's finally just me. There's nothing I'm doing. But, yeah, that's it. After years, after years of so much, it's really great to let that piece go.
- [53:23]
C
Well, it looks fantastic. And thank you both so much for joining us. Super interesting to hear your experiences. I'm sorry you went through what you did, but it's great that you're correcting it for the generation to come. Thank you.
- [53:36]
B
Thank you so much. You're such a wonderful ally. I love talking to you.
- [53:44]
C
Okay, well, I am obsessed by Cariotis hair. I think it's phenomenal. But their stories are really shocking. And again, it's the juxtaposition of those incredibly glamorous images when you know what was actually going on behind and that so often the girls in those images, the young women in those images were being sexually assaulted. They were being abused by the people who were supposed to be looking after them and who were certainly making enormous sums of money off them. Anyway, if you have been, thank you for joining us. We are independent media. That's what allows us to have these conversations. So we really appreciate it when you see. Subscribe to our podcast. You can just press the button wherever you're. You'll press the subscribe button wherever you're listening or wherever you're watching and leave us a comment. What, what did you think about their conversations? And you know, when you look at these incredibly carefully made images, what do you think about what was frequently going on behind the scenes? Let us know. Anyway, thank you for joining us. Don't forget, as our first lady, who was herself a model, might say bebeast. So the good news is we have so many bebeast tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Ryan Murray, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, Neil Rosenhaus.