Joanna (3:11)

Oh, my God. Michael. We are going so deep inside Trump's head. But I'm worried that it's just a kind of, I think it might just be a lot of electrical fuses. I love our design here of inside Trump. So you can't see it. I love our. Where can you see it? There we go. I love our design of inside Trump's head. That's literally what it feels like. It must be going on right there. What, what are we going to find?

Michael Wolff (3:38)

I can't even explain the succession of things that have happened virtually in the last day or slightly longer. I mean, it is from the, from breaking up, the blowing up the relationship with Canada over a fit of pique over some ad on television, to pardoning this crypto billionaire kingpin. Does he think no one will notice his own family is in the crypto business? To demanding. This is like extraordinary, this $230 million that the government, the government that he runs should pay him over perceived injustices.

Joanna (4:24)

Well, his own Justice Department right to.

Michael Wolff (4:26)

Of course, bulldozing the White House.

Joanna (4:29)

Did you leave out blowing up rando boats in what started as the Caribbean has now spread to the Pacific?

Michael Wolff (4:37)

It's actually even, even broader than that. It's like a new kind of, kind of a policy. The I, the military can kill anyone on my orders. And then there's some statement, I mean, an extraordinary, My God, we are going to kill anybody who brings drugs into our country. We're going to kill them. They will be like dead. Now what explains that except that the person, this person must be head bangingly off his rocker.

Paige Desorbo (5:12)

Well.

Joanna (5:12)

And he's surrounded by people that are not having any sense of restraint around him. Pete Hegseth. Well, hold on. We haven't even mentioned the Pete Hegseth telling members of the military they're not allowed to talk to Congress in case they inadvertently give something away.

Michael Wolff (5:29)

But that is, I mean, it's not to forgive these people, but it certainly can be explained. They cannot do that. They cannot, they do not have any portfolio to criticize him, to certainly not to criticize him and certainly not even to advise him on a better path. It just, you're out if you're going to do that.

Joanna (5:56)

Well, and also what he's also created is this sort of constant presence in the Public with his endless press conferences. I mean, it's so fascinating, the juxtaposition against Biden, who I think did six press conferences in his last year. Now, obviously, we know why, but Trump, all the time, I mean, you keep making the point that he just talks all the time. All the time.

Michael Wolff (6:17)

Yeah. No, that's, I mean, he talks in private. If you're with him, it's a monologue. And in public. And they're not different, by the way. I mean, he says, oh, I mean, the man is remarkably consistent. He says the same thing to everyone. I mean, it's actually why it's relatively easy to write about him, because you can sort of, you can track what he's saying from person to person to person to person.

Joanna (6:51)

So when you're talking to people in the White House, which I know you do all the time, what are they saying about this particular moment?

Michael Wolff (6:58)

You know, I, to them, it's not particularly exceptional. This is what, this is what he does. This is, you know, he goes deeper into being Donald Trump, which is, which is the threat and which is the danger. Now, you know, there's, I mean, I've had some conversations about, about, with, with them about what's, you know, the motivation here of, of pushing forward in ways that are, you know, can very easily backfire. I mean, very easily. I mean, $230 million pardoning this crypto guy, bulldozing the White House. Why would you do this? On any logical, from, from the view of any political logic, this can be, and likely is going to be very damaging to you. So why would you do that? And, you know, pressing people, it' sy Trump. I mean, that's always the explanation. It's Trump. Don't try to question it because there's no reason. There's no, it's not going to get you any place to question it. And, you know, and it's Trump, he does these things and yet he survives and flourishes. So don't question it. But the other aspect is, is people do feel he's in a rush. Now is the moment. And the moment could reverse almost at any time. I mean, if in the midterms the Democrats were to win Congress, well, that would be a serious impediment. Or at the end of these four years, he probably will be. Despite Steve Bannon in his third term, despite much late at night fears, the logic is that he would still be out of office. And he's doing this. This is it. This is the man in the moment.

Joanna (9:00)

Well, it does almost feel like he's Been told he's got a terminal disease, and so he's being as disruptive as he possibly can be. I mean, the idea that we are on day. I think we're recording this on a Friday morning. I think we're on day 24 of the government shutdown. We have hundreds of thousands of government employees who are not being paid. We have TSA workers who I call. Let me finish. I have a point here that we have hundreds of decent TSA people who are turning up to make sure that regular Americans get their flights to go off and do their sales calls and go on family trips, and he has his hand in the government till for a quarter of a billion dollars is appalling. It's appalling.

Michael Wolff (9:49)

May I?

Joanna (9:50)

You may. You may.

Michael Wolff (9:53)

I think it's an interesting moment because only now at this, at this, like today or yesterday, are checks failing to arrive for government employees. So the squeeze is now on people. And this is, this is literally hundreds of thousands of people are going to start to feel this. So what's the effect of that going to be? I mean, there's going to be pressure on both the Democrats and the Republicans, but it's a new phase of pressure and a new phase of the shutdown.

Joanna (10:28)

All right, I want to come back to some of these points, but I also wanted to say how struck I have been on your behalf for the outpouring of support with your decision to sue Melania Trump. And I will say I've known you for 25 years. We've joked about the ups and downs in our relationships. We've had feuds. We've had a couple of years where we didn't speak. That was largely over one of us canceling too many lunches. But I think I've not me, I.

Michael Wolff (11:02)

Was not the one cancelling the lunches.

Joanna (11:04)

I think this is the nearest I've ever seen to seeing you being moved. Is that fair? I mean, I've seen you through some major emotional moments in your life, and I have seen you moved by the support that people have had for you. The offering of financial support.

Michael Wolff (11:21)

I mean, I think it's. I think it's. It's. I think it's totally incredible. And I think it, you know, while I'm grateful for the support, for me individually, I think it's open also a sign that everybody is looking for something to do here. How do you push back? How do you stop this? I mean, this is, this is up till to. Up till now and continuing now unstoppable. We. Something has to Be done. I mean, you know, I mean people pour into the streets when there's an opportunity, when almost at any opportunity. I mean, but there are few, I mean, no kings twice a year or whatever, whatever that schedule is, people want to be able to stand up. So. Yes, but I am certainly personally grateful. Stunned. Relieved too.

Joanna (12:21)

Yeah, relieved, I think. All right, so we were talking in our last episode about Stephen, Stephen Miller, lots of very enthusiastic comments, trying to get at who is this man that's been so responsible for the policy against immigrants and these awful ice raids on people with masked men jumping out and wrestling people and zip tying them. I mean, it's quite shocking. I still don't think I understand where his so called philosophy, if one can even call it that, comes from in terms of hating people that very clearly work at the top of the American food chain in tech in California and also literally till the fields and pick the plants and pick the vegetables and fruits that keep Americans fed.

Michael Wolff (13:12)

You know, I mean, I think explaining the roots of racism, which the. This fundamentally is and the roots of this kind of resentment against a whole class of people is. I mean, the immigration issue is a complicated one. Immigration and the Democrats have failed on this issue issue. And I think we can acknowledge that. I think the Democrats would acknowledge that. Immigrate. When you don't pay attention to immigration, when there isn't some logic to it, when you close your eyes to it and suddenly, suddenly it becomes an unstoppable force is destabilizes governments. It's throughout Europe. That's the effect. And here it's the effect. But this is, that's is ultimately a structural question. How do you manage this, this process, this inevitable process. People want to come to this, to this, to this country. That's a, That's a sign of health rather than the. Than, than the opposite it. But how. So how do you manage that then? You take so. But that has to be, has to be juxtaposed to this other thing, this, which Stephen Miller represents, which is a kind of pure hatred, revulsion, enmity, that for him to take this in a personal, in such a clearly personal way. And you know, I mean, I think it's. I think it's glare. I mean the interesting thing is it's so glaringly obvious. There's no, there's no even pretense to make this something else to find a, to find a reasonable rationalization for this. So you know, I mean it becomes. And, and, and you know, I think at this point you, you know why one hesitates to go there for a lot of reasons. You know, this is a roundup of the Jews. But they're not Jews. They're brown immigrants. And let's have a word from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Simplisafe. Can a home security system really call itself effective if it only responds responds Once an intruder has broken into your home? Simplisafe has set itself apart by stopping crime before it starts. Using AI powered cameras, working to spot trouble the moment it appears live, agents step in instantly warning intruders and calling the police. I've signed up for Simplisafe home protection so I can afford real peace of mind the next time I I go on vacation. No contracts, no hidden fees and a 60 day money back guarantee. Right now get 50% off a new home security system@simplisafe.com DailyBeast that's simplisafe.com DailyBeast Proper security means protecting your home before crime starts. Tonight's meal, Tilapia surprise with boiled cabbage.

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Joanna (18:42)

And we're back talking about what else but Donald Trump' snot only America, but Donald Trump's world. And can you remind people again, because I was struck that I didn't fully realize this. Why is it specifically Mexicans and South Americans that Stephen Miller seems to be going after?

Michael Wolff (19:06)

I don't think that that's true. I think it's anybody who's, who's brown Indians are in this. It's just clearly not, not people who are white. And that's in this goes to something that is at the heart of, heart of maga. I think it's at the heart of a Trump thing that this idea that we are losing that within, you know, we're in the process of white Americans becoming a minority to brown Americans. And so there's the effort to exclude the people who Stephen Miller believes are not Americans. Brown, brown people. So, so this is a fundamental to the Trump administration is this rollback, how do we make America look like it looked in 1965? And that's a rollback of, and we've discussed this before and I think these are the pillars of what, of the, of the MAGA vision. To roll back civil rights, to roll bowls, roll back the progress of equity for women, and to change the, to roll back what has happened with a fairly large amount of immigration, massive immigration over the last generation, Brown immigration.

Joanna (20:49)

So how does this work when Stephen Miller is in the room with James JD Vance and of course JD Vance is married to a woman whose parents came from India who's very clearly brown. How do they even begin a conversation?

Michael Wolff (21:04)

I've gone around to several White House people and I said, explain Stephen Miller to me what. Cause he' syou know, I mean, as we talked the other day, he's a weirdo. Even Trump acknowledges that he's a weirdo. So I said, explain this to me. Explain this rise. How does he keep rising? And across the board there's one explanation and everybody rushes to it. They say he's the most incredible suck up. You have never seen this. I mean, the flattery, the ooze when he is in the room with, with the president, with Trump, it just can't stop. And it's one of the few things, and as I say, several people are reporting this to me. It's one of the few things that makes Trump Shut up. He just likes to listen. How does his career continue to flourish when everybody knows he's a weirdo? Even the President, even Trump acknowledges he's a weirdo. He's not really somebody anybody is comfortable with, who you really want. Want to be around and who. And who you might trust on any matter because he's so weird looking at you with those, with that, with those weird eyes. But anyway, everybody responds the same way and they rush to say it. He survives and thrives because he's such an amazing suck up. Of course he likes to listen to this. So this is what all of this, you know, ice picking up people, masks sweeping people off the street. This whole effort to remake the Color of America is really comes down to Stephen Miller's ability to flatter the President.

Joanna (23:00)

But Michael, we are in a cabinet of suck ups. Nobody sucks up as well as Pete Hegseth is always sucking up. Marco Rubio sucking up.

Michael Wolff (23:09)

No, no. Well, that's what I'm saying. Even more than Hegseth, he sucks up. So, so he is the, he is the, the winner. Stephen Miller is the winner of the.

Joanna (23:21)

Suck up contest even more than the labor secretary who said, Mr. President, we have hung a huge, you know, great take. Tapestry of your face on the side of the Labor Department. Even more than that person.

Michael Wolff (23:33)

Yes, even more. I mean, and everybody has to do this. This is the price. These are the table stakes. How much? You can be absolutely prostrate in your flattery of the President. Those are the table stakes. And then you have to raise them. Who can do it even more? And that, apparently is Stephen Miller.

Joanna (23:58)

So can you give us any elements of Miller suck uppery? I mean, how does he go above Pete Hegseth or the labor secretary? What are the words? Is it something in the tone of his voice? Does he bring him gifts? What is the.

Michael Wolff (24:13)

It is just these kinds of, these kinds of statements. You, I mean, you have to, I mean, the essence of flattery is in flattery to a degree beyond logic is shamelessness. How shameless are you? Your ability to say this shit that nobody else was, nobody in their right mind, nobody who has a degree of objectivity or integrity or, you know, all, all, all of the attributes that make for some level of skepticism and independence. So putting all that aside, and if you can put all that aside and it's, it's, it's, it's, it's hard, then you produce a kind of thing that you, you would not. No one, anyone else outside of this would. Who, who might listen to it would Understand that you're a, that you're just, you've, you've given up yourself, you've given up. You have no, no inner self anymore. And it's all directed to this goal of what you want, which then comes through the. This one man who needs to be, needs, Needs to be flattered. Not just flattered, but more than the last person who flattered him needs to be massaged.

Joanna (25:44)

And it'. Sanyway. Let's also talk about Stephen Miller's domestic life, because several people have said, whoa, wait a minute. Didn't Stephen Miller's wife go off to work for Elon Musk? And this was around the same time that Elon Musk appeared to the right of the President as the President sat swinging his legs from behind the Resolute desk. Elon Musk had a black eye. What can you tell us about Mrs. Miller, who I don't think lasted very long working for Elon Musk.

Michael Wolff (26:15)

She was apparently devoted to him until, until not.

Joanna (26:20)

So what is Mrs. Miller doing now? I think she has a podcast.

Michael Wolff (26:23)

Well, that's a safe, safe bet.

Joanna (26:26)

Doesn't everybody?

Michael Wolff (26:27)

Yes.

Joanna (26:28)

Perhaps we should invite her as a guest on our podcast to explain.

Michael Wolff (26:32)

Okay, let's, let's do it.

Joanna (26:33)

Should we do that? We could. I'm not sure if there's a crossover in audience, but Mrs. Miller, if you're listening, we would love to invite you on our podcast. Who knows?

Michael Wolff (26:44)

I think they're an interesting. I mean, they're a power couple. What does that mean, to be a power couple? You know, they are, they are two people who met each other in Washington with, with, with, you know, I mean, clearly, enormously, both of them, them enormously ambitious. And I think both of them, with a clarity about what, that, what realizing that ambition would involve in the Trump years. And the other aspect of this is to realize, and I think a lot of people around Trump have realized this, that they would not have the opportunity with anyone else. Most of the people in the administration, from Hegseth to Kennedy to Bondi are not people who would have had success in any kind of more traditional administration and traditional evaluation of experience and accomplishment and skills. So that, that, that, that, that creates this, that creates this really interesting kind of, kind of, kind of pressure. I mean, this is your opportunity. You're not going to have an opportunity like, like this, this again. I mean, I think Trump himself feels that, but people around Trump feel, feel that too, that, that, that now, now is the time in their lives and in history which they might uniquely prosper. So they better do everything possible to take advantage of that right now. And I'm sure that this has felt the way in other. In other authoritarian and despotic regimes, which are all in there, in a sense, flukes. They're a product of a moment's circumstance. I mean, in often a terrible moment's circumstance. But kind of everyone in that situation then realizes that, that in a normal world, they would be excluded from a normal world. So therefore, they find themselves doubling down on their own abnormality.

Joanna (29:24)

Well, and also what's curious is that, as you say, Donald Trump gives them an opportunity they wouldn't have in a normal or a more normal era. And so not only does he enable them, but they enable him with their extremes. So, as you say, Donald Trump isn't even that particularly invested in what Stephen Miller is doing, but Stephen Miller turns out to be useful for Donald Trump.

Michael Wolff (29:52)

Yeah, no, definitely. And there is this idea in other, more normal, let's continue to use that word, another more normal, normal circumstances. The premium is on being normal. And actually, you kind of. You kind of, you thrive on being the person who is the most normal, the most regular, the most showing up on time, the most, doing it the most conservative way. The people who, people who create the least, least amount of friction, all of those kinds of things. I mean, you've seen it many times in many offices. But this goes the other way. The people who thrive are the people who are more extreme, who are more disruptive, who more lend themselves to the Trump ethos of we gotta break something every day.

Joanna (30:57)

All right, so there's one final point I wanted to talk to you about, and that is the sending in or the not sending in, which was the latest update on sending in troops to San Francisco. So this was something that Trump has been threatening. Marc Benioff, the CEO and founder of Salesforce, had pleaded for Trump to do, had said, yes, please send in troops, you know, and his hypocrisy was pointed out by Ron Conway, the VC investor who resigned from the board of Salesforce and pointed out that Marc Benioff in fact, lives and votes in Hawaii. But in fact, apparently Mark Zuckerberg had reached out and said to Donald Trump, please don't send in troops to San Francisco. It's not going to be helpful. Donald Trump had spoken to Daniel Lurie, the new mayor of San Francisco, who appears to be introducing all sorts of schemes which are improving certainly the center of San Francisco. Last time I was there, it was notably improved. And people who live and work in the city are saying it's so much better than it was. And so Donald Trump said, okay, I'm not going to send in troops. What are your thoughts on that?

Michael Wolff (32:10)

Well, I think it's like in so much around Donald Trump, it's obvious, you know, the billionaires called him up and he likes billionaires. He even listens to billionaires and likes to please billionaires. So, I mean, we're just in this, you know, in a world and so much in the Trump administration has been oriented to pleasing billionaires, especially tech billionaires who flatter him. And this was a moment in which they, you know, they called in. They monetized their flattery, I guess you might say.

Joanna (32:58)

They monetized their flattery. And just as Stephen Miller prostrates himself before Trump, so Trump probably prostrates himself before the tech billionaires.

Michael Wolff (33:08)

There you go. Once again, our sponsors, who we are indebted to.

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Joanna (35:47)

And we're back, Michael and I, inside Trump's head. Michael, we'll be back on Tuesday with more inside Trump's head.

Michael Wolff (35:56)

Wait a minute. So you know, this suit against Melania Trump has generated a lot of, a lot of press. But one of the things and one of the first pieces of press that it generated actually came from the entertainment site tmz. And it was, I would say, not only off, but staggeringly off. It kind of had invented a whole narrative about me that I didn't recognize, including a book that I was in the middle of writing and, and the title for this book, I mean, it was a book that I was writing, a book about Melania, which I have no interest in doing, had never occurred to me to do, and would never do, but complete with a title and a subtitle. And then this went out. It was propagated throughout the Internet. So anyway, we called TMZ on it and this turns out to be an entirely AI written story, which TMZ immediately apologized for and corrected and all that. But then having gone out, that story has been picked up by actual human reporters who have just cribbed from that phony story. So in this, this is just my first glaring encounter with, with and personal encounter with AI news. This must go on then, I'm assuming all of the time, just a pure invention. And this is not, this is not bias or it's not, it's not anything else that we've, that we've said is, is a problem with, with, with news. It's not fake news, as in a bias is just literally fake news. It just, just which no one is responsible for.

Joanna (38:02)

Well, and what was also strange about the story which I read, and I was like, what? Michael's been writing A book about Melania. And he didn't tell me.

Michael Wolff (38:09)

People in my family said, how, how, how come, how come we don't know that you were writing this book?

Joanna (38:13)

I was like, but it also took the title of a book, the Art of Her Deal, which is a book that already exists about Melania by the author Nina Burley. So it was a sort of weird mishmash of yes, they understood you were an author. Yes, they understood you were suing Melania. Yes, they understood there was a book about Melania, nothing to do with you, but they sort of put the two together and it created this third monster like story totally.

Michael Wolff (38:40)

So, so it's, it's just that, you know, and no one is at fault here. No one is trying to, trying to, you know, get me. Nobody is trying to what? Whatever. It's just AI in the invention of reality.

Joanna (38:52)

It's AI and the invention of reality. Well, also, I thought you were going to go somewhere else, which is. You've launched a substack.

Michael Wolff (38:59)

Yes, I have launched a substack.

Joanna (39:01)

Don't you want to tell people about it?

Michael Wolff (39:03)

Oh, thank, thank you, Joanna. Well, it's a, it's, it is more Trump and more Epstein. Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. And in, in longer versions, more daily versions. And, and yes, I'd love to have everybody, everybody come over. Everybody, everybody join me. It's, it's another, another chapter.

Joanna (39:33)

I also think that might be the first time we've got through an entire episode of Inside Trump's House without mentioning Jeffrey Epstein. But we are going to be mentioning him when we get together for our first live event at the Museum of the City of New York. So it's mcny.org you can buy tickets and come with questions. It will be the day after the New York mayoral election, but we'll be talking about Donald Trump, we'll be talking about Stephen Miller, we'll be talking about all of it. But come with questions, come with your friends, come for a group outing, play, plan a dinner afterwards. We're kicking off at 6:30, we'll be through by 8, by which point you will definitely need a cocktail. And there are plenty of bars around the Museum of the City of New York.

Michael Wolff (40:15)

Yeah. And anything you want to know about, about that I can answer about Jeffrey Epstein there. I'm delighted to answer. And Melania, just ask.

Joanna (40:28)

Just ask. So don't forget November 5th, the date for your diaries. If you're in the Tri State area or if you feel like flying in to support us for our first actual physical manifestation of Inside Trump's head. Thank you for joining us. If you have been don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. You can subscribe to Michael's substack, which is called Howl, based on the Allen Ginsberg poem, I'm assuming, and my last name. Oh, wolves howl. I never even thought of that. Howling at the moon, Michael. Howling at the moon.

Michael Wolff (41:05)

There is the Allen Ginsberg poem. Because Allen Ginsberg is from Paterson, New Jersey, where I am. Where I am from.

Joanna (41:12)

Of course he is. What happened in Paterson, New Jersey? It produced you. It produced Allen Ginsberg. It produced William Carlos Williams.

Michael Wolff (41:22)

Dr. Williams. Yes, of course.

Joanna (41:24)

Alexander Hamilton.

Michael Wolff (41:26)

Hurricane Carter.

Joanna (41:27)

Hurricane Carter. I don't even know who Hurricane Carter is. He sounds like a rapper. Was he a boxer?

Michael Wolff (41:31)

He was a boxer. Famous Bob Dylan song.

Joanna (41:34)

Okay, all right, well, that one passed me by. But don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a comment and share the Share the podcast with your friends. Share it with colleagues at work if you need something to discuss with them. You know those weird people, people that you have nothing in common with. You can share this podcast and then say, what do you think of these strange people? The woman with the white hair and the man who's got no hair at all. If you click the link in the description of this podcast below, you can.

Michael Wolff (42:03)

Buy tickets and somewhere in this you can also press something and join, I.

Joanna (42:11)

Think join the Daily Beast community, Michael, where we will be giving sneak updates on what's going on. And if you haven't been this week, don't forget as our first lady would have a say when she's not busy answering Michael Wolff's deposition. Requests be beast and a shout out to our top tier beebeast members Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hodel and Freedc. Thanks to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Erssen and Jesse Millwood.

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Michael Wolff (44:36)

Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily Beast podcast@thedailybeast.com podcasts if you enjoyed this.

Paige Desorbo (44:45)

Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your.

Joanna (44:52)

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Paige Desorbo (44:54)

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