Daily Beast Host (2:41)

Interesting.

Michael Wolff (2:42)

There is just something skin crawling about him. Well, he just, I guess his apparent and obvious and profound insincerity.

Daily Beast Host (2:54)

Yeah, I mean the 180 degree swivel from Trump is the new Hitler to Trump is my lord and master and I will defend him at all costs.

Michael Wolff (3:03)

Yeah, no, I don't think you can recover from that.

Daily Beast Host (3:07)

Thank God. I think, well, he recovered to be vice president.

Michael Wolff (3:12)

But I think remember the point is never to be just the vice president, that's a dismal fate in life, right?

Daily Beast Host (3:20)

As Gore Vidal would say, always the vice president, never the president, which is not true.

Michael Wolff (3:28)

You have a fairly good chance. That's the point. But if you don't become the president, then you become nothing.

Daily Beast Host (3:37)

Yeah, you vanish, you whisper, you float off into the air. Well, he must be feeling under pressure because he did a very long interview with Megyn Kelly, who says that she's going to get to some substantial questions. And I haven't reached the point where she's done that yet. I'm watching it in installments because it's so long, and she's just smiling at him the whole time. I think she's taken her cue from Caitlin Collins, who always looks severe because she's dealing with severe issues. And as we know, as we. We discussed on Tuesday, or was it Thursday? Who knows? The week whistles passed, but we discussed that Donald Trump attacked Caitlin Collins for not smiling when she was asking him about the victims of the Epstein Files. Anyway, Meghan was smiling fulsomely at J.D. vance, who I'm sure knows he's not very well.

Michael Wolff (4:32)

She has.

Daily Beast Host (4:32)

Why he was doing the interview.

Michael Wolff (4:34)

You know, I mean, the Megyn Kelly thing is to smile and then bite you.

Daily Beast Host (4:40)

Well, she didn't. She didn't.

Michael Wolff (4:42)

I mean, she doesn't necessarily. You know, it's. You can't tell. But I, you know, I've seen. I mean, I remember there was. There was one moment on the campaign trail where she gave Trump gave her an interview, which was interesting because. Because they had been at odds. But then she had. She had systematically sucked up to him, and then he had become convinced that she was on his side, and. And then they got into the interview room with her and she chewed him to pieces. It was really kind of spectacular and resulted in a fight of Trump's people and her people at the end, lots of threats. It was an impressive moment.

Daily Beast Host (5:29)

More impressive than when she wore spaghetti straps to interview Putin?

Michael Wolff (5:35)

I don't. I missed that.

Daily Beast Host (5:38)

Okay, well, let's move swiftly on. J.D. vance is, I'm sure, pretending that he wasn't booed at the Winter Olympics, which I have to say I haven't started watching yet, because there's no time to watch the Winter Olympics because there's too much going on here in terms of political sporting events.

Michael Wolff (5:55)

Too many podcasts.

Daily Beast Host (5:57)

Too many podcasts. So, of course, where do we begin? Should we begin with the insane meme the truth social media frenzy that was going on on Thursday night?

Michael Wolff (6:11)

You Know, a breakdown. And I spoke to people in the White House about this, and their view was, whoa, you know, actually, let me quote off his meds, which is an interesting thing that they can acknowledge when Trump is, is too Trumpy, when he has gone further than they would have expected, and at which point they acknowledge that there is something that has probably happened, that something pushed him over the edge, which is another term they use. He went over the edge last night.

Daily Beast Host (6:52)

So we're talking, of course, about the racist meme of the Obamas presented as apes, which.

Michael Wolff (6:58)

But that was in the context of like 60 or 70 Trump, Trump truth post that night, sitting up all night to just, you know, just reflexively just a, A kind of brain dump of, of. Of bile. Well, I think I was in it. I think I got, I think that was the night that I got a. At least, at least one bio rific call out.

Daily Beast Host (7:31)

Biol rific call out. Well, if only he listened to his own Health and human services secretary, RFK Jr. He would know that if he just ate a lot of steak, none of this would happen. We can come onto RFK Jr. S cure for schizophrenia in a moment. But so even within the White House, where they see presumably everything they are. I mean, do they see this as a different stage of Trump's manic behavior?

Michael Wolff (8:01)

Well, I don't know. And remember, and a lot of people respond to this now, these truth socials, 66 in a night or whatever it was. Whoa. Many commentators are on this, but he has often done this throughout the campaign. One of the themes of the campaign among the Trump staffers was, thank God he's doing this on Trump Social rather than Twitter, because on Trump Social, because he's the only one on Trump Social nobody sees it. But clearly, and this was an explicit point, that if anyone did see it, they would understand that there is something truly, profoundly peculiar here.

Daily Beast Host (8:52)

But, but the media cover Truth Social, obviously, because that's how Trump is communicating. He used to. Trump, he used to communicate through Fox News, and now he does it on.

Michael Wolff (9:02)

Well, they cover it now, but that's, that's also recent. You know, in that whole presidential. In the campaign, they did not cover it. I, I mean, the media doesn't really cover Truth Social. He get, he continues to get a break on this. Yes, some, you know, the, the, the Obama meme, that kind of thing, but not the daily or certainly weekly breakdowns.

Daily Beast Host (9:29)

Well, I can assure you at the Daily Beast, we monitor his truth socials because we're using it as a sort of. It's almost like a different kind of blood pressure monitor. You have what he physically looks like and then what we think is mentally going on on true social.

Michael Wolff (9:46)

Because you're a news organization, you can only deal with so many things. You have to pick from the most incendiary. But below the most incendiary there is then a declining order of other craziness. And you can't produce a headline. This is part of the problem. You can't produce a headline that says President. The President of the United States went batshit nuts last night.

Daily Beast Host (10:19)

I mean you'd be writing that every day. You'd be writing that every day.

Michael Wolff (10:22)

Writing that, that, that every day. But in the, you know, and in the official outlets, the New York Times doesn't have the language to say the President had a breakdown last night.

Daily Beast Host (10:33)

Right.

Michael Wolff (10:33)

When he clearly has had, clearly something has gone on, something that, and he has reacted in a way that is beyond reason which seems to define a breakdown.

Daily Beast Host (10:46)

Well, I think we know what's gotten under his skin besides you, which is Jeffrey Epstein. The release of the Epstein files, which are just coming up with new stories every day. Three million of them. Like looking for a needle in a haystack. As we know on Monday Congress is going to be able to look at them unredacted. I don't even physically know how that's possible. You've got four hundred and fifty Congress people. How on earth are they going to even begin to say what they want to look at? And a lot of this will have to be performative. They'll have to go up to the Hill. They're not allowed to take anything away. They have to look at it on DOJ computers. So that's confusing. And then of course Ghislaine Maxwell is going to be giving evidence from her prison camp in Texas where she was moved after her two day interview with her.

Michael Wolff (11:45)

Do we know she's not coming to Washington? Which I believe that we said the other day. So she's doing this remotely.

Daily Beast Host (11:53)

She's doing this from the prison camp, probably with her puppy. You know her puppy will be jumping around at her feet.

Michael Wolff (12:00)

No. And you know, I mean, I think we're coming into a new phase of the Epstein files, which is the, the weaponization phase. So who can claim this? There is so much material, it is in so much, you can make anything out of all of this information. So it's a question of who can claim it. I mean it's a hall of mirrors. Reality is endlessly distorted and the loudest, weirdest, most insistent Voice gets to claim the narrative which everybody is trying to do right now. The Republicans are clearly setting up the Clintons to be the face of this. The Ghislaine interview, I would expect is going to work for the Republicans because she's made whatever deal or is, I mean she has only one recourse in life and that is to curry favor with Donald Trump.

Daily Beast Host (13:04)

Well, she's desperate for a pardon.

Michael Wolff (13:06)

Yes. So she will be good for the Republicans in that Trump obviously has dived into this looking for a way to position himself favorably, which is at my expense. Expense, not no expense, but suggesting that I was in a conspiracy with Jeffrey Epstein to damage Donald Trump. So I think we're in this moment who is going to claim the Epstein conspiracy for himself.

Daily Beast Host (13:43)

And then of course we've got all the women, many of whom names haven't been redacted, many of whom have turned up in photos and who are looking for some sort of reckoning or looking for some sort of conclusion to this. And in fact, I think it's only deepened a lot of their anxiety about their association with Epstein.

Michael Wolff (14:08)

Well, and also because nothing has come particularly clear about this. I mean all of this information and what do we know? Are we more informed now than we were? We've added a new sort of new characters to the drama. But what has that gotten us any further understanding of what, of what went on and the meaning of all this.

Daily Beast Host (14:41)

To me, and I think it's going to take, you know, it may well take years for the Epstein files to be truly picked apart and for whatever conspiracies are in there to explain not least how he made his money. How he made his money, which still remains a mystery at the center of all this. This is a man that died with $600 million. He lived a lifestyle that cost between, well, probably up to $100 million and no one understands. You remember having this conversation with Leon Black, the co founder of Apollo, the private equity group where he said, how did Jeffrey make his money?

Michael Wolff (15:24)

You know, absolutely true. But just let me add a little context to this, which is I've been in New York a long around, not just Epstein, but a lot of people like Epstein, a lot of people who are very wealthy. And I'm always saying how, how do they make their money? I mean, I mean it always seems.

Daily Beast Host (15:44)

Were like Epstein, they didn't have an industrial sized, vertically integrated.

Michael Wolff (15:50)

Well, they, they didn't but there is, you know, I mean, I mean enormous numbers of people. Where does the money come from in this time? And this goes to the whole nature of this, of this story and why it is intrinsically fascinating to so many people. Where does the money come for so many people who have so much money? There is, I mean, the logic of this. I mean, it seems to me that everybody should give out a little, you know, a little one pager. This is why I have, I have more money than anyone has ever imagined happening.

Daily Beast Host (16:26)

Well, and the, the other thing I find interesting about it is you are things like Jeffrey Epstein introduced Sergey Brin, the co founder of Google, to JP Morgan in 2012. I think, why on earth couldn't JP Morgan have approached Sergey Brin separately? Why didn't Sergey Brin, the co founder of Google, immensely wealthy, I think at the time, probably the third richest man in the world. Why would he need Jeffrey Epstein to create that introduction for him? That makes zero sense.

Michael Wolff (17:05)

Zero sense, everybody. If you plumb the depths of every middleman in New York, and most men seem to be middlemen in New York, you think, why is it that they do what they do? Why wouldn't it be more efficient to eliminate the middleman? But nevertheless, it turns out that the middlemen make everything happen.

Daily Beast Host (17:31)

It's just so strange to me, so strange that Sergey Brin would think he would need Jeffrey Epstein to introduce him to America's biggest bank. I mean, what on earth was his financial advisor doing? Must have just been collecting commission, I suppose. Why on earth wasn't he doing something?

Michael Wolff (17:50)

I don't know. But let's assume that there is, that this happens for a reason. This doesn't happen randomly. I mean, the people at JP Morgan are probably slugs and they probably sit there and do nothing until the, the middlemen, the guys, the guys who are really actively out there trying to make money, which is what a middleman does, right? Calls them up and say, hey, you know, I got a, I've got a life. 20 or 30 or $40 billion for you.

Daily Beast Host (18:25)

Yeah. And then of course, Jeffrey Epstein made money from the introduction, which we saw from earlier papers released to do with the Epstein books.

Michael Wolff (18:32)

That's what floats the middlemen.

Daily Beast Host (18:34)

Okay?

Michael Wolff (18:34)

So we have to say that's called the vig.

Daily Beast Host (18:37)

The vig. It's called the vig. Okay, well, the thing that we. So Trump has. I mean, actually there was a relatively bipartisan approach to the racist meme. Trump eventually took it down, saying that, oh, it was a member of his team. He didn't know about it. Yes, he understood it was racist. Racist. He was taking it down. I mean, pathetic, Pathetic, obfuscating and blaming. Blaming of other people, which is obviously what he always does. Thoughts.

Michael Wolff (19:06)

Thoughts. Yeah. Well, I know the operation. This stuff comes. They send him. Natalie Harp is at the head of the list here. They send him stuff. Anything that they think confirms his point of view about anything and makes him look good and someone else look bad. It just is a funnel of stuff that comes to him. So could he have inadvertently snapped that up? Well, everything is, to some degree, inadvertent. There is no thought here. So to actually impose thought on this, I didn't think this. I didn't think about this. I didn't focus on this. He doesn't think about everything. He doesn't focus on anything. So his posting of that is no different than all of the other. The other 60 or 70 posts from that night or the nights before. This just happens to be something that the media could focus on, therefore create that moment of, oh, my God. And perhaps Trump's reaction was, I should have thought of this. And then he'll yell at Natalie for sending this to him. But it is no different. There is no exception to what happened here.

Daily Beast Host (20:34)

Right. Well, it took our eye off the ball on what's happening with the Iran conversations. Your friend Steve Witkoff back in there with Jared Kushner, and they didn't make any remarks to the press after they left the conversation since they did not.

Michael Wolff (20:48)

Seem to make any progress.

Daily Beast Host (20:51)

Well, we don't know if they made any progress. Who knows? Maybe there'll be another big peace announcement. But he's also closer to home trying to name Penn Station after himself.

Michael Wolff (21:04)

You know, on the heels of the. Of the Kennedy Center. And, you know, we discussed this the other day of the. Of the political. Of how preposterous that was in any political sense. I mean, he gets nothing from that. This move to put his name on, apparently anything he can put his name on is to no political advantage. Quite the opposite. I mean, the rebranding the Kennedy center has got to be one of the most dumbass political moves of a long time. I mean, the Kennedy center is an accepted, even beloved institution. John F. Kennedy, one of the most popular figures of modern history. And let's take that on. Obviously, it was a catastrophe. The performers bowing out audiences, the real.

Daily Beast Host (22:11)

Kennedy family coming up and saying, this is terrible. The minute you're out of office, we're going to reclaim it.

Michael Wolff (22:18)

But in addition, the Kennedy center couldn't operate, so now he has to close this down.

Daily Beast Host (22:24)

Well, I hope that doesn't happen to Penn station. There are 800,000 people a day who use Penn Station.

Michael Wolff (22:30)

Well, so the thing is. And then why would he do that? So the, I mean, let's be clear, he is now holding Penn Station hostage. It needs the release of federal money in order to continue building a tunnel, which everybody thinks is necessary. Without that, there is enormous amount of economic issues that become at risk. Because it's such a focal point and funnel of so much activity.

Daily Beast Host (23:06)

Yeah, no, this is actually catastrophic for New Jersey and New York. We badly need a tunnel connecting the two places. Well, it's not just so many people.

Michael Wolff (23:17)

It'S not just a local issue, it's a national issue, because so much flows through this, so much necessary economic activity. But okay, so put that aside. So he's. Anyway, that's the setup. He's doing that. He's holding that, those monies hostage in return for putting his name on Penn Station, Trump Station. So why would he do this? What is the possible political gain here? Now, this is the same question I asked of people I know in the White House, what is going on? What does he think he's going to accomplish? And they were quite methodical in interpreting Trump. That this has been, in reminding me that this has been the fulcrum of Trump's career. What has he done? What did he do different from other people? What is he, what was really the thing that propelled him? And it was putting his name on buildings. And it's interesting because when he started to do this, this was not something done in the real estate business. Developers did not put their names on buildings. Developers were not stars. Developers were developers. They were guys who were there to make money. And the other fripperies, fame, celebrity, et cetera, uninteresting to them, Trump comes along, puts his name on every building. He puts his name as big as it can be. And that, we should remind ourselves, becomes the way he comes to enormous attention and prominence. So in his mind, and this is what people in the White House are, you know, understand and were reminding me of, it is central to the attention he has gotten, which is central to his political success. And let's do a commercial break. Nothing hits like home cooking. And HelloFresh genuinely makes it easier to do more of it. You can choose from more than 100 recipes every single week. Meals that actually lift the winter gloom. HelloFresh also offers more than 35 high protein recipes weekly in GLP1 friendly options plus grass fed steak, ribeye and seasonal produce. I use this and you should too. Go to hellofresh.com dailybeast10fm to get 10 free meals plus a free zwilling knife. Almost a $150 value on your third box. That's hellofresh.com dailybease10fm offer valid win while supplies last free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. Hi, this is Jonathan Fields from Good Life Project. If you're not using Ironclad for contracts, you could be leaving millions on the table without knowing it. Every contract holds renewal dates, pricing terms and obligations you can't afford to miss. But good luck finding them when it matters. Ironclad's AI instantly services what matters so you can act before opportunities slip away. That's why they're trusted by OpenAI, L' Oreal and Salesforce. Find the savings hiding in your contracts@ironcladapp.com podcast that's ironcladapp.com podcast not every sale.

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Daily Beast Host (28:13)

And Michael and I are back inside Trump's head. What's so interesting is he's put his name on all his businesses, right? So Trump Model, Trump Waters or Trump Water, Trump University, Trump Steak, Trump Champagne. And all these things have, have, have vanished. I mean, they, they've been pursued by lawsuits.

Michael Wolff (28:33)

Well, yeah, Trump Casino, but he's the President of the United States for the second time. I mean, I know, it's just something has profoundly worked.

Daily Beast Host (28:44)

Something has profoundly worked.

Michael Wolff (28:46)

In the dot com age. I had a business which raised quite a bit of money and I put my name on it for the express purpose that I thought it would make it Much harder for them to fire me. Well, maybe that's why they fired me. Anyway.

Daily Beast Host (29:12)

What was it called? Was it called Michael Wolf Enterprises or Wolf. The Wolf's at the door? What was it called?

Michael Wolff (29:19)

It was called Wolf New Media.

Daily Beast Host (29:21)

Wolf New Media. Okay, well, you're not President of the United States. Maybe you just didn't do it big enough. You weren't bigly enough anyway. I really hope, if he does end up doing that and that becomes the quid pro quo, that they release the funds which have already been appropriated.

Michael Wolff (29:37)

You know, I'm. I'm sure it. I mean, that's the. I mean, that's the appeal. That's. That's the bargain. They're saying, this is easy. We'll give you the money. It's. It's right there. All you have to do is agree to this one little thing. Just.

Daily Beast Host (29:53)

Just.

Michael Wolff (29:53)

And they go, just call it Trump Station. What the. What the hell? What's the difference, right?

Daily Beast Host (29:59)

Just give in. He's just. He's just demanding. It's like a child. Give in to him.

Michael Wolff (30:03)

Yeah, it doesn't. They'll. They will say, it doesn't cost you anything. Actually, it gets you an enormous amount of money. Why not do it? Why not now? You know, I mean, the. And the reasons actually not to do it then become more complicated to explain because he's insisting. Because this is all about domination, because this is all about making himself a fait accompli. Because this is all about Donald Trump being. Being omnipresent in our heads. So. But that against your. The release of your. Whatever it is, 46 billion, or.

Daily Beast Host (30:45)

I don't know, I think it's a $17 billion project. And the minute they stop working, which is what they're doing at the moment, it's costing between, I think, 30 and 40 million a month just to store the machinery, close the five different sites down. I mean, and this spares money. This is infuriating to me that this is a waste of our money.

Michael Wolff (31:10)

Yes. So we will say. So in order not to waste the money, the principle will give way to the money which he is counting on.

Daily Beast Host (31:21)

Well, Chuck Schumer, who he was trying to get to agree to this, has demurred and pushed it off. But it will be interesting. And you're right, you know, if that's what it takes to get it done, maybe that's a price that's worth paying. And then the minute he's out of office, it can be renamed Penn Station again.

Michael Wolff (31:42)

You know, it's not so easy to Rename. These things, they become reality, which is what he is counting on.

Daily Beast Host (31:48)

Well, I think your point about him wanting to be in everybody's head and owning another huge piece of real estate in New York is a good one. And the new Penn Station is fantastic. I mean, it's an absolutely incredible station. A world class station. Which used to be horrible.

Michael Wolff (32:07)

No, it doesn't. But that's not true. Penn Station is still one of the world's great shitholes they've just created.

Daily Beast Host (32:14)

Well, we're talking about the Moynihan.

Michael Wolff (32:16)

The Moynihan, just the small annex across the street. Penn Station is still. Is still the overwhelming traffic.

Daily Beast Host (32:27)

Doesn't he want the Moynihan? The Moynihan station, which is across, which is part of it.

Michael Wolff (32:34)

No, I think.

Daily Beast Host (32:35)

Why would he want the old horrid bit of it, which is under msg?

Michael Wolff (32:39)

Because I think that's coming under. The plan is to remake that. I think.

Daily Beast Host (32:46)

No, no, you're right. This is what they've hand. This is what they've hired Andy Byford to do. Andy Byford, who used to run the mta. The subways came from London. He's British and he's come back to oversee the remaking of Penn Station. But I assumed it was Moynihan.

Michael Wolff (33:03)

He doesn't want Moynihan. Who knows that? That's just this annex at Penn Station. He wants Penn Station. He doesn't want the annex.

Daily Beast Host (33:10)

All right, well, the annex is fantastic. It used to be the old post office, this glorious building. It makes you want to take trains. It makes you want to do a full Joe Biden and just ride up and down on the Excella.

Michael Wolff (33:22)

Yeah, but that is. I mean, you're on. You're on. That's the Amtrak line, which is.

Daily Beast Host (33:28)

Well, it goes to D.C. goes up to Boston, goes to D.C. does the whole of the East Coast.

Michael Wolff (33:33)

It's. But it's not principally the com. The. The commuter line, which is where all the traffic comes true.

Daily Beast Host (33:39)

Okay, all right. Well, I've never. I've never been a commuter in terms of. From New Jersey to New York, so that's why I got a bit confused. But I do use Moynian. The annex, as you call it, which I think is.

Michael Wolff (33:52)

I grew up. I grew up in New Jersey.

Daily Beast Host (33:54)

Yeah, of course you did. I'd forgotten that. Yeah, you and William Carlos Williams. And who is the other one?

Michael Wolff (33:59)

Allen Ginsberg.

Daily Beast Host (34:00)

Allen Ginsberg. Okay, so what about Carter, if you're just Hurricane Carter?

Michael Wolff (34:06)

You don't even know who Hurricane Carter is.

Daily Beast Host (34:09)

I Think he's a boxer. He's a boxer, isn't he? Yeah, he's a boxer.

Michael Wolff (34:11)

I do know a Bob Dylan song. But I do think this putting your name on the building, I think the Kennedy center thing is instructive and destructive. What he is doing. Look at this. In the course of just a couple of months, the Kennedy center has ceased to operate. Ceased to be able to operate. It is now being closed down. He is going to. He is going to rip it apart, rip it down to its steel, and then create something else. So we will go from this iconic Edward Durell Stone modernist building to an imperial neoclassical style in which this will reopen sometime in the future as a building not for the performing arts, but for some arena like spectacles. And it will be called the Trump Center. Right.

Daily Beast Host (35:12)

And Turning Point USA will turn up and do their rallies.

Michael Wolff (35:16)

Exactly. But the important thing is it will be called the Trump center and we will not remember what was there before. That's the plan. That's what he counts on.

Daily Beast Host (35:27)

That truly is an autocratic move. And of course, the irony is that RFK Jr. Is right there alongside him in his cabinet meetings and telling everybody that actually, if you've got schizophrenia, if you eat a couple of steaks, you'll be fine. He's come out now saying that the keto diet is the cure to schizophrenia.

Michael Wolff (35:52)

Yeah, well, the RFK thing. But I would say before we segue into rfk, the RFK thing.

Daily Beast Host (35:58)

Are you just throwing it away as the RFK junior Thing? Because this is.

Michael Wolff (36:07)

I just want to flag the President's diet, which is a steak diet. An all steak, all the time diet.

Daily Beast Host (36:15)

I thought he had chick fil A as well. Doesn't he have chick fil A and fish, A filet, whatever, Those fish. A fish fillet sandwich from McDonald's.

Michael Wolff (36:24)

No, he. From McDonald's. He likes, you know, he likes a Big Mac. It's always a hamburger from whatever, sometimes pizza. But otherwise from every other fast food joint, he gets the hamburger.

Daily Beast Host (36:37)

Well, anyway, RFK Jr.

Michael Wolff (36:40)

I'm not a chicken man. You think I'm a chicken man.

Daily Beast Host (36:45)

So RFK Jr has put out another of his madcap considerations, which is if you go on the keto diet and you have schizophrenia, you may get cured according to some kind of study that he read two days ago.

Michael Wolff (37:00)

Yes, the author of the study has already come out and say, no, that's a misrepresent reading of.

Daily Beast Host (37:04)

Of course he has.

Michael Wolff (37:06)

But let's just. It's. It's just. It's just thinking through this. What is RFK Junior's game here, by the way, where there are the, the COVID vaccines, which is the whole point of this is now under review and we will, we will, we will. We have lost and we will lost more of our ability to easily abstract, obtain a Covid shot. So this is. So what does RFK want here?

Daily Beast Host (37:40)

Okay, well, before you go into that, I've actually got the list of vaccines here that he's saying are no longer recommended for children. COVID 19, hepatitis B, rotavirus, influenza, hepatitis A and meningococcal ACWY. And the recommended number of HPV doses has been cut from two or three depending on the age, to one. I would have thought the HPV virus would be something that Kennedy himself would be quite keen to clear up, given his own muddings, as he called them. His and I remind people that I'm.

Michael Wolff (38:21)

Going to define muddings.

Daily Beast Host (38:22)

Well, muddings are his sexual activity. I've seen a copy of his diary which someone in our office has a photocopy of actually, and it's really disturbing. It's just a list of women's names and then numbers by them as to what stage he got to. And he calls it his demons, that he was haunted by his demons. He's a really, really peculiar man and particularly peculiar to have at as Health and Human Services.

Michael Wolff (38:53)

Well, there are, there are two. I mean there's only two reasons that he would be, he would be pursuing this, these policies. One is that he is flatly out of his mind. I mean that he exists in some other reality that he has become possessed by the righteousness of his vision of health, disregarding any scientific basis for that. Which is, which seems like actually quite a reasonable explanation for where he has gotten to on this and certainly what's.

Daily Beast Host (39:34)

His family say about him?

Michael Wolff (39:35)

Yeah, but the other explanation is an understanding or a perception on his part that this is really central to the MAGA people that they are. That for a whole set of reasons, and certainly involving Covid, the health guidelines and instructions and assumptions of the past number of generations have all become deeply suspect and they are in opposition to this view. And so Kennedy's catering to that is the platform with which he hopes to become the President of the United States once more. Gratefully. A word from our.

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Daily Beast Host (41:26)

Like diarrhea, gas and bloating, abdominal pain and sometimes oily stools.

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Jonathan Fields (42:16)

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Michael Wolff (42:20)

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Daily Beast Host (42:22)

And with a big thank you to our sponsors, Michael and I are back inside Trump's head. People are always saying the thing about Donald Trump is there's often a kernel of truth at the center of some of his crazier ideas is there are issues with American health. People are obese. 64% of the population are overweight, 43%, I think, are obese.

Michael Wolff (42:47)

And so but I would hesitate there. Yes, yes, there. But the real thing and the real emotional nexus of this issue is vaccines. And vaccines have been a there is no vaccine, none, no evidence at all that they are what RFK and company claims they are, and no evidence at all that the American public as a whole has has become suspicious of them. It is just a very A very defined MAGA minority who has made elevated this into a central issue and a central part of their political identity.

Daily Beast Host (43:41)

Well, and as you say, he was actually interested in the environment until he stumbled on vaccines as something which gave himself something of a base.

Michael Wolff (43:52)

Now it is quite possible also of course, I mean I set these two things. He's crazy or he's a political opportunist, but it is highly possible that these two things are true at the same time.

Daily Beast Host (44:06)

Yeah, no, they're not mutually exclusive. And we know that he said that his brain got chewed up by a brain worm.

Michael Wolff (44:13)

But in which is even more threatening that the crazy man's crazy beliefs are convergent with a politically powerful movement.

Daily Beast Host (44:31)

And you know, it's funny, you go on holiday and you visit ruins of civilizations and you think, well this does seem like it was a very plausible civilization. How is it possible that it went out of being, you know, you look at these ruins from a thousand years ago and you think oh goodness, that is strange that they just stopped. They just stopped. And yet you think, oh, the reintroduction of diseases because we had vaccines that stopped polio, that stopped measles, that stopped all these diseases that killed children and killed adults. Oh, this is how it could happen that America becomes disease ridden and that eventually the country just sort of falters.

Michael Wolff (45:15)

Well, I mean since we've had these diseases before and we recovered from them and grew, I'm not exactly seeing that as a.

Daily Beast Host (45:25)

Well now you're sounding like we've had these diseases before.

Michael Wolff (45:29)

Biological trajectory of history. But, but, but it is certainly, I mean people are going to get sick, people are going to die, people are.

Daily Beast Host (45:40)

Already getting sick, they're already pockets of children getting.

Michael Wolff (45:43)

People are. And, and, and the certain. You are undermining a, you are undermining intellectual progress essentially. And intellectual progress is hello, progress.

Daily Beast Host (45:57)

The number of scientists who've had the grants to their work just cut the number of left America. It's such a brain drain and it's really difficult to build back.

Michael Wolff (46:10)

But again, and I keep coming back to this question, both in terms of Donald Trump and in terms of these other people in the administration. I think it's very, A critical question when it comes to Bobby Kennedy Jr. Is that none of this appears to be politically intuitive or smart to say the least. So there is all this kind of, I mean every, I mean heading in what I think is very plausibly into a kind of politically self destructive whole that this is all going to come, that this is not popular, that, that they are going to pay for this and pay grievously for taking away things that the American people. Have intertwined into every aspect of their lives. These are expectations, and expectations not met are the worst thing that you can do in politics. So, you know, you end up thinking, what the devil here? And then I come back to the fact that they're all fucking crazy.

Daily Beast Host (47:34)

They're all crazy, but we put them there as a country. That's the harder thing to reconcile. Anyway, MICHAEL that's quite a lot to chew on. This morning, the Clintons will be appearing and they're asking to have their appearance at the Oversight Committee on the Epstein files. On camera they're saying, bring it. Let's just do this. Which also doesn't seem like a very good political move.

Michael Wolff (48:01)

You know, I don't know. I think it's a risky move, but it could be well be a political move. I mean, first thing, the Clintons are pretty good at this.

Daily Beast Host (48:09)

Well, that's what I mean, it's not a good political move for the Oversight Committee, currently in the hands of the Republicans.

Michael Wolff (48:15)

James well, they may deny this. I mean, they don't have. They're under no obligation. I mean, it looks fishy, of course, if they do this, but these guys don't care about what looks fishy. And I think that they would be, you know, I don't know. It will be a risk for both sides, but interesting to see. We'll all be tuned in.

Daily Beast Host (48:39)

We will all be tuned in, and I will be tuned in to hear whatever Ghislaine Maxwell says. I'll be looking forward to reading the transcript for our viewers and our listeners next week. It's an easy reach for me. She's got an English. Yeah.

Michael Wolff (48:54)

I mean, it's interesting how she's gonna do this because now she's rather, she's on record and under oath in a rather detailed way. I mean, Todd Blanche, the number two in the Justice Department, Trump's former lawyer, went down. When was that now?

Daily Beast Host (49:15)

July. Was it July?

Michael Wolff (49:17)

At any rate, within the recent past that we can no longer remember to interview Ghislaine Maxwell and got her on the record, two days of depositions. So she's in a very dicey perjury trap.

Daily Beast Host (49:35)

Well, I'm sure she's spending all weekend trying to memorize what she said to Todd Blanche whenever they had their conversation in the Tallahassee court, because, as you say, she doesn't want to contradict herself. But we know that she said the President was a marvelous man and that she would like to extend her congratulations to him being elected again.

Michael Wolff (49:59)

And again. We do hope that whoever is questioning her will ask about Melania's letter to note to her and her note back to Melania. And it would be, I will say, helpful to me and my. In my lawsuit against the First Lady. Any news on what's happening for any details on their relationship?

Daily Beast Host (50:28)

Any news on where you are with your case? How are you getting on trying to serve the first Lady?

Michael Wolff (50:35)

All, all. All. We're still in the same. We go into. We answer their motion to dismiss the case in federal court. We answer it this week, I believe, on.

Daily Beast Host (50:49)

Well, good luck with that, Michael. I think it's time for a limerick to read us out. Interestingly, we've had a lot of limericks this week, and they've all started with the same line, or almost the same line, which is, there once was a centre called Kennedy. And Kennedy, it turns out, is quite hard to find a rhyme to go with it. But I applaud. I've got three in a row here that all begin with that. All from different people. I think this is from Rena Helms. The once was a centre called Kennedy which featured the cream of humanity, but a gent with some ghoul smacked his name on the wall, which made for hideous calamity. I thought that was pretty good. Good job. Okay, we've got one here from Sunray, 1938. The once was a center called Kennedy, whose existence served the slain's memory. Good one. The audience declined and the artists resigned and refused to be stained with complicity. Also good. Also good. That's from Sun Ray.

Michael Wolff (51:53)

You know, I don't write limericks, but perhaps I could. But I have written a column, a substack column about this, which I recommend to you because it's super depressing.

Daily Beast Host (52:04)

It's super depressing. Well, I'm not sure I want to read it.

Michael Wolff (52:07)

Well, it's. You know, I think you should. I think everybody should think about how depressing this is.

Daily Beast Host (52:13)

No, and it's also one of the things that autocrats do, right? They come in and they try and own the culture, and if they can't, they close. I mean, there is something very significant about what's going on with the Kennedy center here that perhaps hasn't got its due attention because of everything else going on.

Michael Wolff (52:31)

And it's. Yeah. And, you know, and what people think is that this is a dumbass thing, you know, that he'll get hoisted on this, that the opposition is raising its voice. But the real truth is that it goes along, it's just obliterated. No one will remember the John F. Kennedy Memorial center for the Performing Arts.

Daily Beast Host (52:57)

Thank you for joining us. We're leaving you on a rather somber note, but there are lots of things you can do. Get involved in your local community and take a stand and join the Daily Beast community where you will find like minded people howling into the darkness like and me. Anyway, please subscribe to the Daily Beast. We're independent media. We love your support. So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now there are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team. Devon Rogerino Ryan Murray Rachel Passer Heather Passaro Neil Rosenhaus.

Jonathan Fields (53:38)

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