Michael Tracey (3:32)

And you will just, just note Jeff Bezos and, and, and his wife's appearance at the Met Ball this past week.

Ryan Grim (3:42)

That's right. They were chief sponsors of the Met Ball, for which I think they paid $10 million.

Michael Tracey (3:49)

Yes, a monument to vulgarity and into our time and the nature of our time.

Ryan Grim (3:57)

A monument to the nature of our time. But what is fascinating about Melania's essay is that it really doesn't make sense. It clearly hasn't. No editor at the Washington Post has clearly dared to edit it, as far as I can see. And it's full of vague, generic language which doesn't quite make sense. And on the one hand, she's extolling the values of family and the importance of family and the institution of family and saying how important it is to support family. And yet at the same time, women must make a lot of time for self care, for feminism is to blame for the sort of wobbliness of the nuclear family. She doesn't once mention her husband. She doesn't once mention her own mother who moved to D.C. to support her. And she doesn't mention Michelle Obama's mother who moved into the White House to support Michelle.

Michael Tracey (4:56)

She also talks about, I want to make a clarification there. Michelle Obama's mother moved into the White House to support the Obama family in the White House. Melania Trump's mother moved to Maryland so that her daughter and grandson could escape the White House.

Ryan Grim (5:20)

I realized that's what you were going to say as you embark down that sentence. Yes. So poor Melania's mother doesn't get a shout out, despite the fact that, that her funeral gets, or her memoriam gets an enormous amount of attention in Melania the movie. The piece itself is quite remarkable, actually. And it's just, it's just nonsense. I mean, let's call it for what it is. It's just nonsense.

Michael Tracey (5:50)

It's anodyne, it's meaningless, it's full of cliches and, and dopey sentiment. It's impersonal.

Ryan Grim (6:04)

But also what's fascinating about it, she doesn't once mention her husband she sympathizes with single mothers. And then the final paragraph is, together, let's champion new American model that restores honor of motherhood by encouraging all women to lead boldly at work with. While also making family the cornerstone of our national future. I invite you to join me in prioritizing family as we shape a stronger America for the generations to come. Now, she is not someone that we'd barely seen her by her husband's side. What family? What family is she talking about, Michael? And is this her? Is this her clinging to Baron as he fights for his separation from his parents at this phase?

Michael Tracey (6:56)

I don't think that there's any personal considerations in this at all. This is, this is at best about business. Melania, the brand. Let's, let's do a motherhood thing. Somebody had this idea and then they've sent it to the Washington Post. But I'm also wondering about the political implications of this because we have seen more and more Melania, who has been invisible for most of this term and most of the first term too, and certainly invisible during the campaign. More and more we see a Melania presence, a peculiar presence. You know, it's like once a week we get a Melania hit.

Ryan Grim (7:44)

Now, well, also, also, I mean, another thing she didn't reference. But it's a mother's job to not know Jeffrey Epstein. Remember her crazy statement that she came out with three weeks ago? I thought, no, Jeffrey Epstein, that is a full time mother's job. That is a full time mother's job to keep your girls away from Jeffrey Epstein. No mention here. She also says, I constantly challenge myself as first lady to think beyond traditional responsibilities of the East Wing. Well, first of all, there is no East Wing. So that has been demolished. That has.

Michael Tracey (8:24)

I mean, that's such a peculiar, that's such a peculiar thing to say. Does she not know that? I mean, so nobody even read this. Why would you call attention to the East Wing? That doesn't exist. That in itself has become a rather glaring, glaring political issue.

Ryan Grim (8:42)

Well, she then goes on to say she's so, she's constantly challenged herself as first lady, which we doubt because she's barely around as First Lady. And then she said that has resulted in many new opportunities, including leading for reunifications of Ukrainian and Russian children with their families, which is, if she has done that, that's great. Thumbs up for that. But there is no mention of her movie and there is no mention of her book, which surely if you had actually written this, those would be things that you would be Proud of, or at least have to pretend to be proud of and be thrilled at the amount of money she received for both.

Michael Tracey (9:25)

Now, it could be just thinking this through, that this is the White House initiative. And then they produced this. And then they said. Then they said to Melania's people, we want to run this. And they looked at it and said, well, there's nothing here, and who cares?

Ryan Grim (9:42)

Well, in fact, people do care because the comments have been fantastically negative. So it's unfortunately had blowback against her because the comments are like, well, then ridiculous.

Michael Tracey (9:54)

Then that could be. That is the other thing which I often think that she is leading her own separate political initiative, and it does not necessarily conform to her husband's.

Ryan Grim (10:11)

Well, there's also no mention of blended families. There's no mention of her stepchildren. There's no mention of the fact that she's a step grandmother. So it's as if it's entirely disconnected from the life that she's led with Donald Trump. Anyway, I don't know why I find it so amusing.

Michael Tracey (10:30)

I want to emphasize, because I think this has broader implications that. That these guys, that these people, the politicians, you know, politicians used to farm out this stuff that they wrote to their staff. This is nothing. This means nothing. No one has read it except us, apparently.

Ryan Grim (10:47)

No, no. And lots of Washington Post readers. The remaining Washington Post readers, and let's not forget 300,000 subscribers left. But the remaining Washington Post readers have read it and are shocked and have gone online to say, what is this? Well, whoever advised Melania to write this, I would advise you for the first lady of the United States, let's not forget that she's not just a model. She's not just a catalog model. She's the First Lady. She represents the United States. And to not have someone. I mean, there are so many authors you could call. There are so many ghostwriters and speechwriters you could call to write something really moving and rousing. It could be a hymn to her own mother. And yet they've chosen to go the lazy route.

Michael Tracey (11:44)

I mean, let's question the Washington Post's responsibility here. I mean, obviously they said, okay, great, the first lady is gonna write something about. About motherhood. But when they're handed this thing, why wouldn't they say, no, obviously, we can't. We can't publish this? Or are they saying, well, let's publish this because it kind of hangs herself? I don't know. But there's some weird lack of responsibility on their part.

Ryan Grim (12:13)

Well, it's. It's a.

Michael Tracey (12:15)

Or it could be. Let's remember Melania, the movie is a. An Amazon Jeff Bezos production. And Melania, the Mother's Day article appears in the Washington Post, which is owned by Jeff Bezos.

Ryan Grim (12:37)

So you're suggesting Jeff Bezos rated.

Michael Tracey (12:40)

No, I, I'm, I'm, I'm suggesting that this is all part of a greater, a greater Melania marketing influence pedaling piece of grift.

Ryan Grim (12:54)

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Michael Tracey (14:17)

Well, I'm sure first thing that the reality of this is that Jeff Bezos and his wife had very little discretion over the Met Ball that was going to remain. I mean, their position was wholly honorary there. And, and obviously the Met Ball is run by Anna Wintour and Conde Nasty would have known.

Ryan Grim (14:47)

Right. But Anna Wintour put Melania Trump and Donald Trump on the COVID of Vogue when they got married. I mean, I know that she since said Melania Trump will never appear on the COVID of Fog.

Michael Tracey (14:59)

Yeah, but they have, but, yes, but they have not seen that. That was another age, another, another couple, basically. And so they would have known and the Conde Nast people would, would have, would have known that that would have been to involve the Trumps would have been a statement that they certainly didn't want to make.

Ryan Grim (15:20)

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's, it's, I mean, I'm not, I'm not encouraging people to go and read it because it Just, it doesn't mean anything. It's just generic, weird gobbledygook. But interesting that they put it out there. Yeah.

Michael Tracey (15:34)

And, and I think the, you know, the, the, the larger point here is what is Melania doing that this, that this does become a political. Something we have to see within the, within this political context, we don't know what it means. And it could be, and it could be dangerous for Donald Trump. She is, if she is in some kind of secret or not so secret revolt against him, which I think she might be, and if she is building this independent brand Persona business from him, that also becomes a potential liability. And as we've discussed before, within the White House, they now look at her as a, as a liability. I mean, in the times that she has come, come out, that has not been good for them. The Epstein thing, drawing attention to that, her, her just peculiar attitude about everything, her absence, her strategic absences, this is not good for them and it's not necessarily controllable for them.

Ryan Grim (16:51)

So, Michael, one of the things we get lots of emails, lots of texts and comments asking what's happening with the case against the first lady, or what's happening with your case with the First Lady?

Michael Tracey (17:04)

My case against, against the First Lady. And just, just to recap, the first lady threatened to sue me for a billion dollars over me mentioning her connection to Jeffrey Epstein in the state of New York. I mean, you can't do that. There are things called anti slap laws. And what that means is that you cannot use the threats, legal threats, to stifle perfectly legitimate free speech. She threatened to sue me for the direct purpose of me backing down, not saying what I could have every legal right to say in New York, you can sue for that. Which we did. So, so instead of her suing me, we turned around and sued her. That is now in court. It is now in federal court. And we've raised a lot of money through a GoFundMe page, almost a million dollars to support this suit. So a lot of people say, well, what's happening? What's happening, what's happening? And in fact, I also am saying what's happening to my lawyers on a regular basis. And the truth is that, you know, it's, it's. The law moves very slowly. So this is, we have been pending a decision in federal court for almost two months now. They have asked to a, of course, dismiss this suit or in lieu of that, move it to Florida, which would be a preferential jurisdiction for them. We have responded by saying, no, this should be remanded back to New York State Court where it belongs because Melania lives in New York and I live in New York. And, and if there's any doubt about that, we've asked for discovery on that point, although we've produced a lot of evidence to show she in fact lives in New York even though she says she lives in Florida. So again, this is, this is in federal court, is before a federal judge who is a, a Trump appointed judge judge. So we don't know, we don't know what that will mean for the case. But I suspect one of the things that it means is that a Trump appointed judge certainly doesn't want to rush into a decision against the first lady. But a decision will have to be forthcoming. And it could come, as my lawyers tell me, on a regular basis, any, any minute or not, and it could take weeks longer. But that is what we are waiting for, that decision.

Ryan Grim (19:54)

Is there any deadline by which the decision has to be made?

Michael Tracey (19:58)

There is no, this is the legal system in the United States of America. There is no deadline. It is wholly at the discretion of the judge.

Ryan Grim (20:10)

So in theory, the judge could just keep kicking this down the road until 2028 and she's no longer first lady.

Michael Tracey (20:22)

You know, I don't, that's a very good question. And I will almost immediately ask my lawyers that how far can this go? And they don't expect it. I mean, they expect that this is, I mean, right now, this is not out of the ordinary. In many cases that go before federal judges and procedural cases, they take their time in deciding. I mean, these are somewhat complicated issues.

Ryan Grim (20:50)

But imagine being the judge, imagine being the judge having this on your desk and making the decision to allow the case to go ahead. You would only, I'm sure, and I hope the judge is not thinking of this, but I'm sure the judge will be thinking the retribution could be enormous.

Michael Tracey (21:11)

Which is not to say, and I don't, and I don't want to even in any way apply that this federal judge, and she was appointed in the, in the first term, is doing anything other than what she should be doing is, is evaluating the issues in this case and on her own schedule. And I'm sure she has, you know, substantial other issues on her, on her docket. And then a decision will, will, will come and, and then we'll deal with that. What, whatever it is. Well, but it can't go. The, the case is now effectively slowed down. As, as most, most, as, as it, as happens in most cases, in most litigations, you get to you get to moments in which things happen. Things happened very slowly.

Ryan Grim (22:08)

Well, the results of the British election happened, felt like they happened incredibly quickly this week. And we've seen 100 years of labour rule in Wales just tossed out of the window and extraordinarily reform. The Reform Party, led by Nigel Farage, the right wing, sort of Trump light candidate, for those of you not following British politics and why would you, has won 1400 seats and Labour has, I think, lost.

Michael Tracey (22:46)

Let's point out that you at this moment sit in the middle of, if not British politics, in the middle of the United Kingdom, in Yorkshire, at your family's home.

Ryan Grim (22:58)

Yes, I'm here looking after my mum, who is ill, as many of you know, and have written me incredibly nice comments and emails. Thank you very much for that. We were distracted this week from the horrors of pancreatic cancer by the really remarkable shift in British politics which, like the states, has really been a two party system, certainly for the last hundred years. And that seems to have been blown apart. The character that I was discussing, the leader of the Green Party, Zach Polanski, who was a former hypnotist, who as we mentioned, hypnotized one woman to believe her breasts would grow larger, has won lots of local government seats. These are local elections, but it means that reform has taken over several councils and will be running cities in a way that this has just never happened before. And it now looks increasingly likely that at the next election Nigel Farage could be a proper Prime Ministerial candidate.

Michael Tracey (24:06)

So pancreatic cancer on the one hand, Nigel Farage on the other hand.

Ryan Grim (24:10)

Yeah, it's between a rock and a

Michael Tracey (24:13)

hard place, but it's indicative. What's interesting to me is obviously on a larger stage here, that what we see again is people's incredible unhappiness with the system, that the system fails to perform for people. And that is, that is something that is very hard for a politician, for any politician to deal with the system, the system, it is hard to move the system, it is hard to get the system to perform better. So when there is a perception that the system is not performing, any politician is going to fail to rectify that and then is going to suffer the consequences. And that's that that seems to happen at this point to, to all or most incumbents. And the only people who are able to, the only politicians who seem to be able to overcome the, the difficulties in moving the system are politicians who are, you know, the great bullshitters. And Nigel Farage is one of those great bullshitters. I mean, a Kind of, you know, like Donald Trump, you know, with this amazing shamelessness, you know, as though, you know, he represents himself as a, as a, you know, as a really effective and efficient businessman, which he is not, and a whole other range of things. But what he isn't, and that is fundamentally his appeal is that he isn't really a politician, or at least he represents himself, comes off as not a politician. In fact, he is a politician, but he doesn't seem that way. I mean, Keir Starmer seems like a politician and that's that other, that other thing about authenticity. You know, Nigel Farage, say what you want about him. He seems like he's have always seems like he's having a good time, probably because he's had quite a bit to drink. And he seems, he seems comforter, he seems comfortable in his own skin. Whereas Keir Starmer is one of those other politicians, and this is true about almost every Democratic politician in America, seems distinctly uncomfortable in their own skin and versus of course Donald Trump, who is absolutely comfortable with being Donald Trump in

Ryan Grim (27:00)

his very orange tanned, leathery skin with his nasty rash at the back of his face.

Michael Tracey (27:06)

Shamelessness is, is, is a key part of, part of this, you know, other, you know, a lot of politicians, a lot of Democratic politicians, you know, you feel that they have, they fundamentally understand and appreciate and have some shame about their own phoniness. Donald Trump does not have any shame about his own phoniness.

Ryan Grim (27:28)

Well, he has no shame about anything. But you're right, it's the rise of the anti politician politician. Zach Polanski, who's leading the Green Party is the same. And what you've seen over the last two days is the collapse of two party rule in Britain. I mean, it's possible that labor and Conservatives will get even more. And the Conservatives were also trounced in this most recent election that they will both take a back seat at the next general election. I mean, who knows, It's a lot of time between still three years to go. Keir Starmer is refusing to resign over shockingly bad results. I mean, they lost counsel after counsel after counsel. I mean, really devastating results as he himself acknowledged. But he's refusing to go. And obviously there's all sorts of internal machinations. So there's the equivalent of the JD Vance and the Marco Rubio. But you're right, it's playing out in the States in exactly the same way. And Nigel Farage is the Trumpian character.

Michael Tracey (28:30)

Now the other thing is that the person out of power always benefits and the person in power is the person who is penalized. And so we are looking at that now that the person to be penalized is Donald Trump because even he, in doing all of those, those things, in being the bullshitter, in being the non politician, can't basically make the system work better. And that, that, that is basically you can reduce that, that formulation to, can't make the economy do better than it is doing. And Donald Trump is now facing the midterm elections and where that is go where, where by every reasonable expectation he is going to be hoisted except for the fact that he has the, the, the incredible ability to manipulate the system in his own favor. And we have arrived at that, a kind of a crisis point this week in, in, in, in the recognition that, that despite the, the, despite the political winds, winds that are blowing against him, he has the ability to, to, to weigh in on the system with such heavy fee that, that again we're at this moment of saying who knows what's going to happen now? And specifically what we're talking about is the ruling, you know, the, the ruling of the Trump court ruling in Virginia. And this was a vote by the Virginia legislature to reapportion its electorate in such a way that it would be a counterweight to the Trump, the reapportionment in Trump states to favor Republicans. The Virginia reapportionment would have, would have favored Democrats and neutralized the efforts of Republicans. So it's a state court that has thrown that out. The math that would have said that basically the Trump reapportionment has been balanced by the Democrats reapportionment has now been thrown up because the Democrats reapportionment in the key state of Virginia has been thrown out. So the, we will go into the midterms with probably something like the, the, the Republicans will have as much as a 10 seat advantage that they would not have otherwise have had. So and that is coupled with what else the other things that Donald Trump can do on a structural basis to influence this election. He can't change the politics, he can't change those wins, but he can change the system in his favor. And you know, I think we've gone back and forth and everyone, you know, there's a lot of the sense over the last number of months has been okay, he can't really do that. Yes, he can try, but there's always going to be pushback on that and the Democrats can probably neutralize this. And now we're at a moment of saying well maybe that isn't true. Matter of fact, maybe quite the opposite isn't true, that the system itself can be altered. And then considering the other add on things, I mean, his efforts to call for substantially greater identification to be necessary at the polls, which would disenfranchise a lot of people, the ability to put in a federal policing presence, ICE at polling places. So again, this moment of thinking, okay, the political wins are against Donald Trump. They're really against Donald Trump. And we are looking forward to, certainly to a House of Representatives that will have a Democratic majority and even quite possibly, and this has gotten quite a bit of press in the last several weeks, a Senate Democratic majority. And now that is, again, we've had a bracing moment in suddenly having to face the fact that that may not be true, that Donald Trump, despite the political wins, holds an incredible amount of power. Hey, sweetie. Your mother showed me this Carvana thing for selling the car. I'm going to give it a try. Wish me luck. Me again. I put in the license plate. It gave me an offer. Unbelievable. Okay, I accepted the offer. They're picking it up Tuesday from the driveway. I haven't even left my chair. It's done. The car is gone. I'm holding a check anyway. Carvana give it a whirl. Love ya.

Ryan Grim (33:57)

So good you'll want to leave a voicemail about it. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. Well, on Friday, he released potentially a new platform for him, too. UFOs. UFOs. Strange lights in the sky. He released a government file telling people that people believe this ship. He, you know, I could quite see him running on a platform where he's now fighting aliens and obviously releasing it on Friday. I don't know if he was competing with Melania's essay or if he was doing it to distract from the war.

Michael Tracey (34:35)

I have a Trump quote, and this comes from 2016, actually, from the case campaign. And so his first campaign in which he said, I could run on UFOs. People really believe this, so. Which is perfectly cynical. Donald Trump, so cynical.

Ryan Grim (34:55)

So cynical. Yeah, of course. But.

Michael Tracey (34:57)

But it's also an, you know, an appreciation. UFOs are a UFOs cell. They have always, that has always been a kind of a kind of.

Ryan Grim (35:10)

Well, it's a conspiracy theory, isn't it? It's conspiracies. And he likes them because he understands if you throw a conspiracy theory into anything, it immediately makes things murkier. And of course, we had another thing thrown into the biggest conspiracy of all. Was Jeffrey Epstein murdered or did he die by suicide because supposedly his suicide note was produced. Did you, did you have thoughts on this?

Michael Tracey (35:38)

Well, my, my, I, I have limited thoughts, but my, my two thoughts are, are that Jeffrey Epstein suicide note or purported suicide note sounds bizarrely like the kind of suicide note that Donald Trump might write if at the time it comes to that.

Ryan Grim (36:00)

What does that even mean? I can't imagine his enormous handwriting.

Michael Tracey (36:07)

Well, he would that, but it's, it's, you, you know, the, it's kind of no fun exclamation point. I mean, it's, I mean, the poor grammar and the, in the kind of, in the kind of, you know, you know, well, if this is the way it's going to be, then I'm going to do this. Then it's, I mean, I found it very Trumpian in its tone.

Ryan Grim (36:34)

Did you believe, because it was supposed to come from, in theory, an earlier attempt to dive.

Michael Tracey (36:44)

The week before, maybe 10 days before Epstein, Epstein died, there was another, another effort, another apparent effort on his part to commit suicide.

Ryan Grim (37:00)

He had a cellmate at the time, right? With the first attempt, I think he had a cellmate. And the cellmate found the suicide note.

Michael Tracey (37:09)

The cellmate found the suicide note. There was, the cellmate was accused of the person who might have tried to strangle him in the first instance. And the cellmate has since been convicted on several murder counts. So, I mean, I, I don't know who you want to, want to believe here, but this is, well, did you

Ryan Grim (37:29)

ever, did you ever see, I mean, in your various correspondences with him, which I know were largely on email, but did you ever see his handwriting? I mean, the handwriting itself then, first of all, the language of the note was so strange. The handwriting itself was so peculiar,

Michael Tracey (37:50)

You know. Yeah, I, I saw it. I, I didn't, I didn't find them. I mean, I, I don't, I don't know if I have a, a view on his hand. I, I don't think the hand, the handwriting didn't seem so peculiar to me. It seemed like h. All handwriting at this point seems to me actually quite peculiar.

Ryan Grim (38:09)

But it's true. But, but I've known you for 20, what, 25, 26 years. I'm not sure I could identify your handwriting. There are lots of people whose handwriting I could identify.

Michael Tracey (38:18)

I think. I'm trying to, I'm trying to think if I had, I, I once swiped a, a Jeffrey Epstein pad. It said Jeffrey Epstein on the top because I thought, I thought that would be an interesting artifact to have. And, and, and he had written something there, there was a top page in which he had written something. And I looked for it just as soon as this note came out. I looked for it in hoping to compare it, but of course I couldn't. Having swiped it for the purposes of history, I have now lost it.

Ryan Grim (38:58)

Well, I don't know what frame of mind you can possibly be in if you're thinking of attempting suicide, but the note to me struck it just, I don't know, not only attempting suicide in

Michael Tracey (39:13)

jail, in the frame of mind that you're in jail and you may never get out of jail.

Ryan Grim (39:18)

So, well, and you've been running an industrial size complex of girls coming through your apartment. The whole thing is horrible. But I just thought you might have seen his handwriting and know what it was like and whether or not the note was genuine.

Michael Tracey (39:35)

I cannot verify this note, but I've always thought, I mean, I've always thought it's very possible, I mean, I don't know what happened to Jeffrey Epstein at that most fateful moment, whether he was killed himself or whether other forces were involved, but I have always thought it is quite possible that he could have, that he would have killed himself. You know, and as I've said before, I received one of the last messages from him and in that message it was, he said, and this was in response to me saying how are you? Or something like that. He said, still hanging around. And this was as much as hours before his death by hanging. So, and he was clearly then referring, that was referring, at least I understood it to refer back to when he, the previous effort in which he seemed to have tried to kill himself by hanging.

Ryan Grim (40:46)

It's still to me the most incredible story of a friendship that Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein, who tooled around the for up to 15 years together, were each other's best buds. One of them ends up as president and one of them ends up at the heart of possibly the most fascinating conspiracy about what happened to him in a jail cell in New York. I mean, just the juxtaposition.

Michael Tracey (41:18)

Can I claim credit just for that juxtaposition?

Ryan Grim (41:22)

Yes, you can. You can claim credit.

Michael Tracey (41:24)

Thank you.

Ryan Grim (41:25)

You can absolutely claim credit for it. It's just, it's so strange. So somewhat following in your own footsteps. Very interesting development at ABC this week who's decided to sue the FCC, claiming the FCC is trying to restrict ABC's use of the First Amendment. Really interesting case. New CEO at ABC, Josh D'. Amaro. A different approach to Bob Iger, who was the previous CEO who decided to settle the case with George Stephanopoulos. I know you have thoughts on this.

Michael Tracey (42:06)

Yeah, no. And this is against the background of. It's not just ABC that had settled, settled the case in the face of a Trump threat, but also CBS that had settled and, and, and other organizations. You know, you get threatened by the President in the United States and that's a scary thing. It's a scary thing to large businesses and smaller businesses. And, and this had, and this is itself is against the backdrop that this has never been done by a White House, an American President. The American executive branch does not use its power against the media. You know, this is fundamental and it has shocked everyone that a president would be so audacious and perhaps tone deaf and, and belligerent in his efforts to get the me to bend the media to his will. And that has gone on for certain for the breadth of the, of the second term. And as, as we discussed before, I mean, I, I have been involved with, with, with this and, and the steps that I take that I, that I took against the first lady have been one of the few instances in which there has been clear pushback. Well, now there is, there is abc, the Disney Corporation, and ABC is also now finally pushing back in a, in a very material way. And what this basically involves, curiously, is the show the View. And you know, I mean the, the, the View is a, is a, is a daily show of, of, of with a panel of women talking about many things. And they have largely been antagonistic to Donald Trump. Although it's an interesting thing that Donald Trump has been on the View before he became the president in 2017, many, many times. I think a couple of dozen times.

Ryan Grim (44:39)

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Michael Tracey (45:35)

Yeah, well, I mean, I wouldn't go that far. I mean, I think that they were, that was largely his interviews with Barbara Walters were to his benefit. It helped solidify him as moving him from flim flam man to celebrity fair.

Ryan Grim (45:57)

Totally fair. So Barbara Walters was also culpable in not taking him seriously enough. Perhaps.

Michael Tracey (46:05)

But at any rate, they have said, I mean, he's been pushing, particularly in regard to the View on all kinds of licensing matters for the ABC television stations, pushing on, on a, on an, you know, former NFCC ruling about equal time, which has not been. The equal time ruling. Has, has, and I don't actually even know the formal status of it now because it has not been enforced in two generations. So. But they're bringing that back a whole, really, any leverage, possibly governmental leverage they can use against ABC and against any of the networks to bend the networks to their will and to make the networks, the networks think twice and three times before they go negative on Donald Trump. And of course, one of the networks, cbs, has now been, has been, has been taken over by a company and by a family in the, in the technology business, the Ellison family, which has close ties to Donald Trump.

Ryan Grim (47:32)

Right. And they brought in Bari Weiss, who was the founder of the Free Press, a conservative newsletter, to run CBS News, which so far she's found extremely challenging.

Michael Tracey (47:44)

So among all of the other things which the second Trump administration has shifted in political life is this overt attack on the media. And that has gone from in the first administration, basically just name calling, to in the second administration trying to use every point of leverage it has against media organizations and people in the media.

Ryan Grim (48:15)

So do we think this is a hopeful sign that ABC is saying, enough already. We're going to do essentially what you've done, which is before the FCC actually launches its full suit, they launch their own suit.

Michael Tracey (48:32)

Yeah, well, it's, it's more hopeful than, than not, certainly. I mean, this is what, what media organizations should have done in the past. The capitulation of, of these organizations to Trump has been, has been the really damaging thing. I mean, that's what eggs him on, number one. And number two, spreads the chilling effect. Everybody in these organizations knows that they may not be supported.

Ryan Grim (49:09)

Okay, well, this is the perfect moment for me to ask people who've been listening and watching us today to smash the subscription button. Join the Daily Beast community. You can become a Beast member where you extra content and you get content ahead of time. You get exclusive, exclusive content, but it helps support independent media, which is what we are. You can thank our production team now.

Michael Tracey (49:39)

Thank you. Thank you for. We. We have.

Ryan Grim (49:44)

You're just staring blankly at me. You're just staring blankly.

Michael Tracey (49:53)

I wonder what I was thinking at that time. And I will tell you, I was thinking absolutely nothing. Just everything had just gone out. You get to the end of a show and you think, we made it. Although, I mean, I had a moment. This Virginia decision in this whole kind of realization that, in fact, the midterms are not a fait accompli, that he has the ability to do all kinds of mischief and more was one of the. I was thinking again, I was thinking, oh, my God, you know, I just can't. I can't face it. I can't put my boots on again and have to slog through another. Another swing of Donald Trump's fortunes. At any rate, for another day. Thank you.

Ryan Grim (50:48)

And we're not there yet. Yeah, we're definitely not there yet. But my point about conspiracy was simply that once you start sowing conspiracies about the voting system itself, like the fact that voting is rigged and like the fact that, you know, he was urging on the FBI officers when Tulsi Gabbard went down to Georgia to take ballots away, that all you have to do is so doubt in a system which hitherto Americans have largely trusted.

Michael Tracey (51:18)

Well, I mean, sure, I understand that, but we're beyond doubts here. I mean, this is now actually manipulating the structure of the system. Really, the potential of putting actually masked men in the way of your vote. I mean, this is, this, this isn't just doubts. I mean, this is. We are looking at the potential of. Of making it. Making it very difficult for people to vote and, and of altering the system in a way that it is so. So egregiously favors Donald Trump that we're. That democracy becomes in danger. But for another day, meanwhile, for another

Ryan Grim (52:12)

day for Tuesday, perhaps.

Michael Tracey (52:14)

Thank you, Ryan, Rachel, Heather and Neil.

Ryan Grim (52:19)

So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out, and we really appreciate your support.