The Daily Beast Podcast: "Why Seeing Epstein and My Uncle Donald Haunts Me"

Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Mary Trump
Date: November 17, 2025

Episode Overview

In this compelling episode, Joanna Coles sits down with Mary Trump—author, clinical psychologist, and niece of Donald Trump. With candor, Mary discusses her unique vantage point growing up in the Trump family, sharing chilling insights into family dynamics, psychological decline, and the toxic legacy of her infamous uncle. The conversation explores the Trump family's approach to power, money, loyalty, misogyny, and their proximity to Jeffrey Epstein, weaving in Mary’s personal recollections and professional assessments.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Living with the Weight of the Trump Name

• Mary Trump describes her adaptation to her family's omnipresence:
  • No longer feels daily horror, but remains personally affected by the damage she believes her family has done.
  • Shift in focus: more concerned with those enabling her uncle rather than Donald Trump himself.
  • "After the 2016 election...twice a day, I would have this feeling of horror wash over me...I don't get that anymore, because this is our reality, and it has been for over a decade now."
    • [03:49]

2. Childhood and Family Dynamics

• The Trump family normalized extremity—misogyny, cruelty, zero-sum thinking about money.
• Mary’s father, Fred Jr. (Donald’s older brother), was the original heir apparent but fell out of favor due to his sensitivity, ambition to be a pilot, and ultimately alcoholism.
• Mary’s reflections:
  • Felt invisible in the family due to being Fred’s daughter and a girl.
  • Claims all upsides in the family dynamic are absent: “There was no upside to being part of that family. These were cruel, selfish people who don't understand love, who don't have compassion or empathy.”
    • [47:17]

3. Donald Trump: Personality, Power, and Fear

• The 'myth of Donald': Mary asserts Donald’s threatening power is not inherent but conferred by others—media, family, financiers, political machinery.
• Unpacks his charisma as manufactured: "He, Donald, that is, acted as if my grandfather's wealth was actually his wealth, that he was a self made man and my grandfather actually helped him construct that story..."
  • [14:45]
• Mary is baffled by people’s fear of Donald Trump: "He's the weakest, most pathetic person I've ever known. And there is nothing about him that's threatening."
  • [10:44]

4. Misogyny and the Treatment of Women

• Dinner table misogyny was routine, including among women in the Trump family.
• Donald and his brother Robert were particularly dismissive and infantilizing toward female family members; Mary’s own father did not participate in this dynamic.

5. Proximity to Jeffrey Epstein

• Mary never met Epstein but was in the same room at Donald’s wedding to Marla Maples.
• Reflects on the chilling realization and distance from Donald’s inner circle:
  • "I have had the great misfortune of being in the same room with Jeffrey Epstein, which is alarming enough, but thankfully now I never. I never met him."
    • [06:44]

6. Family Decline and Signs of Dementia

• Mary recounts recognizing signs of Alzheimer’s in her grandfather, Fred Sr., drawing parallels with Donald’s current public demeanor.
  • Observes Donald’s confusion, memory lapses, lack of impulse control.
  • "There are times I look at him and I see my grandfather, I see that same look of confusion. I see that he does not always seem to be oriented to time and place."
    • [18:38]
• Anecdote: Grandfather’s deteriorating mental state led to irrational outbursts and forgetting family.
  • "That's when my grandfather stopped knowing who I was. And I was standing with him, and he was very—once he forgot who I was, he was very nice to me. It was sort of a relief, honestly."
    • [22:50]
• Donald was dismissive of and impatient with his ailing father:
  • "He had no use for him whatsoever. He had no patience with him."
    • [24:00]

7. Donald’s Psychological and Physical Health

• Mary points out observable decline in Donald: memory issues, obsession with money, diminished defense mechanisms against the reality of mortality.
  • "He seems deeply uncertain. He seems to be reckoning with the possibility that he may not be immortal after all."
    • [31:47]
• Family is not religious; Donald sees himself as his own god.
  • "Donald, interestingly, does not believe in a higher power. He is the higher power."
    • [33:49]
• On recent comments about mortality and the afterlife: Mary interprets them as signs that Donald's psychological defenses are weakening.
• Warns: If facing decline or legal peril, Donald "will not go alone. He will take as many people down with him...Nihilists are very dangerous people if they feel like they're losing control."
  • [34:15]

8. Marriage and Family Relationships

• Ivana: Tough, age-appropriate, a relatively matched partner for Donald.
• Marla Maples: Pleasant, treated badly by Trump's family, out of her depth.
• Melania: Met only once, barely spoke, seemed disengaged.
  • "He needed to make it seem that I was as bad off as I could be so that his offering to hire me to write a second book was a bigger deal."
    • [44:10]
• Every Trump relationship, in Mary’s assessment, is transactional, whether professional, romantic, or familial.

9. “The Art of Survival” Book Anecdote

• Mary was briefly hired to ghostwrite Donald’s book but was never given material or access; publisher fired her on Donald’s behalf.
  • "He wanted me to write this book without ever speaking to him about the book."
    • [45:53]

10. Complete Estrangement

• Mary is not in touch with any family members and prefers it that way.
  • “It’s healthier, it’s saner…they have no redeeming characteristics.”
    • [48:05]

11. The Epstein Connection & Trump’s Capacity for Harm

• When asked about Donald’s possible involvement with underage girls through Epstein:
  • “What I say about him that we need to keep in mind there is no such thing as worst. He will always get worse.”
  • [48:56]

12. Closing Reflections: Separation and Survival

• On Diane’s proximity to power and public discourse:
  • Mary sees her role now as staying “grounded in a fight,” helping others understand the family from the inside.
  • “It is not money, and it is not greed, and it is not cruelty. It is staying connected to people as an empathetic, compassionate human. I think in these very dark times, that's sort of the least we could do.”
  • [49:43]
• On entering politics herself: Absolutely ruled out.
  • "I always felt like I'm more useful fighting on the outside of this thing."
  • [50:45]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the myth of Donald Trump:
  “Donald is the result of a myth my grandfather started a long time ago.”

  • Mary Trump [10:44]

• On existential decline:
  “He seems deeply uncertain. He seems to be reckoning with the possibility that he may not be immortal after all...it's getting much, much harder for him to keep that reality from himself, from his conscious awareness. And it is terrifying.”

  • Mary Trump [31:47]

• On detachment:
  “There was no upside to being part of that family. These were cruel, selfish people who don't understand love, who don't have compassion or empathy. And I consider myself extremely lucky that I am not part of that family at all.”

  • Mary Trump [47:17]

• On Donald and legacy:
  “Donald doesn't believe in that. He does not believe that anything or anybody could exist beyond him. Which is what makes me nervous. Because...if he starts to think that his health is failing, he will not go alone. He will take as many people down with him.”

  • Mary Trump [34:15]

• On transactional relationships:
  “Every single relationship Donald has ever had is transactional. So his. He is the same way with his wives as he is with anybody else.”

  • Mary Trump [39:24]

Key Timestamps

• 02:16 — Host introduction and context setting
• 03:49 — Mary on adapting to family notoriety and enabling systems
• 05:23 — Early family anecdotes; Donald at Mary’s 16th birthday
• 06:44 — Proximity to Jeffrey Epstein at Trump wedding
• 10:44 — The myth of Donald and the construction of his persona
• 14:45 — Mary on Donald’s legacy and power as manufactured
• 18:38 — Signs of dementia in Fred Sr.; parallels with Donald
• 22:50 — Fred Sr. forgetting family; Mary’s relief at anonymity
• 24:00 — Donald’s contempt for his ailing father
• 31:47 — Mary’s analysis of Donald’s psychological decline
• 33:49 — Lack of religious beliefs, Donald as his own “higher power”
• 34:15 — Donald’s nihilism and danger if cornered
• 39:24 — Transactional nature of Donald’s relationships
• 44:10 — Melania anecdote; ghostwriting Donald’s (never-completed) autobiography
• 47:17 — No attachment or pride in family legacy
• 48:56 — Mary on Epstein and Donald: “He will always get worse.”
• 49:43 — On survival and grounding in compassion
• 50:45 — Mary rules out political aspirations

Tone and Atmosphere

The conversation is strikingly candid; Mary Trump blends intimate family anecdote with sharp psychological insight. Joanna Coles keeps the interview grounded and moving briskly, balancing personal questions with political analysis. The mood is at times somber, unflinching, but ends on a note of personal resolve and advocacy for decency.