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- [00:02]
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- [00:30]
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- [01:02]
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- [01:31]
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- [02:03]
Michael Wolff
Everybody is in a low level panic now all of the time about Trump falling asleep because then he gets mad. He essentially blames the people around him for the fact that he fell asleep. And you can see it and they talk about seeing it. It starts to come on and you know, he kind of relaxes or the features change, he tilts and then everybody knows the eyes are going to shut.
- [02:32]
Josh Dawsey
Michael.
- [02:35]
Michael Wolff
Joanna, he said with slight skepticism.
- [02:39]
Josh Dawsey
I know, but it's me. Why are you skeptical? It's not an AI version of me.
- [02:44]
Michael Wolff
I just. It's. It's that. That we found ourselves in this position, after all these years.
- [02:50]
Josh Dawsey
After all these years.
- [02:51]
Michael Wolff
Seems kind of full of. Full of wonder.
- [02:54]
Josh Dawsey
Full of wonder. I wonder if most people know that I stalked you to get to know you, because I was a huge fan of your New York magazine column about the media. It was so good. And I thought, who is this columnist Michael Wolff, writing every week about all the people I wanted to read about?
- [03:14]
Michael Wolff
This was 25 years ago.
- [03:17]
Josh Dawsey
It was 26 years ago.
- [03:19]
Michael Wolff
26 years ago.
- [03:20]
Josh Dawsey
I think it was 26 years ago because I was the bureau chief for the Guardian newspaper and I tracked you down and three times you cancelled me for lunch.
- [03:29]
Michael Wolff
You know. You know, but I am. And I don't know why I have a precise memory of this. You were no longer at the Guardian. You had moved.
- [03:37]
Josh Dawsey
Had I just moved to the Times.
- [03:38]
Michael Wolff
You moved to the Times. Yes.
- [03:40]
Josh Dawsey
Okay. And we finally had lunch at Michael's, which was the Media Cafe at the time. Still is. In midtown Manhattan.
- [03:50]
Michael Wolff
Still is. Same people. They're just all 25 years older. Literally the same people.
- [03:57]
They're now all out of work. However, you can look around that restaurant and you could say no one here has a job.
- [04:04]
Josh Dawsey
Well, you have a job. Your job is to go inside Trump's head with me every week. But you also have the same table, table number five.
- [04:12]
Michael Wolff
I do. I do. It's been a long run.
- [04:17]
Josh Dawsey
A long run. And here we find ourselves. But the good news is we are employed and we are very concerned about what's going on inside Trump's head. I'm actually. We're not together. You're in the studio. I'm in Abu Dhabi.
- [04:32]
Michael Wolff
In my head. We're together all the time.
- [04:37]
Josh Dawsey
Oh, dear. Well, I'm here for a media conference, but I feel like I'm missing so much, I can't stand it. So I missed the President falling asleep on Monday and then I missed the reversal on the video of the boat strike. So you need to fill me in.
- [04:54]
Michael Wolff
But you didn't miss any of these things. You know as much about this as well, certainly as I do.
- [05:00]
Josh Dawsey
Okay, well, I know about this.
- [05:02]
Michael Wolff
We're all this is in this long running, day by day.
- [05:11]
Novella, the Trump novella.
- [05:15]
We all see it.
- [05:16]
Josh Dawsey
A novella would be short. This feels like War and Peace. It's a thousand pages.
- [05:23]
Michael Wolff
The novella series, the Mexican television series.
- [05:27]
Josh Dawsey
Oh, telenovela.
- [05:28]
Michael Wolff
Yes, thank you.
- [05:29]
Josh Dawsey
Telenova. Well, you omitted the word tele at this.
- [05:32]
Michael Wolff
I was grasping.
- [05:36]
Okay, so, yeah, this is not a short story. This runs endlessly. We're in, what, the 10th year?
- [05:44]
Josh Dawsey
Yeah. So we're in season. It feels like we're in season 24.
- [05:48]
Michael Wolff
But it is different because in all those. I never remember Trump falling asleep. You know, and it used to be, I mean, he got bored, and then he would get up and walk out. I mean, all of the time, certainly in the first White House 90 seconds, he was bored. He was out of the room. Everybody going, uh.
- [06:12]
Now they're going, mm, mm. Because he's asleep.
- [06:18]
Josh Dawsey
He's asleep. And then what we're really waiting for.
- [06:21]
Michael Wolff
I mean, you can't wake him up. Also, the cameras are running. I mean, everybody is in a low level panic now all of the time about Trump falling asleep. Because then he gets mad.
- [06:32]
Josh Dawsey
Yes, yes.
- [06:33]
Michael Wolff
And then he gets angry. I mean, he gets angry. He essentially blames the people around him for the fact that he fell asleep.
- [06:42]
Josh Dawsey
Well, that's ridiculous.
- [06:44]
Michael Wolff
I mean, poor Marco Rubio, of course.
- [06:46]
Josh Dawsey
It'S trying to talk louder, I think, to keep him.
- [06:50]
Michael Wolff
No, and I think that's it. But there is no. I mean, you're on camera, so you can't jostle him. Hey.
- [06:58]
So nobody knows what to do. And you can see it. And they talk about seeing it, that it starts to. It starts to come on and, you know, he kind of relaxes or the features change. He tilts. And then everybody knows the eyes are going to shut.
- [07:14]
Josh Dawsey
The eyes shut. And then he just jolts himself awake. It's a bit like being on a plane when your head droops and suddenly you wake up again and you saw poor Marco Rubio on Monday trying to deal with it. And then Trump coming to.
- [07:30]
Do you think this is a health issue or is this just an, you know, Trump, he's 79.
- [07:36]
Michael Wolff
You know, I mean, we spoke last week about, about this. The sense among people around him that he may be losing interest.
- [07:46]
Josh Dawsey
Right.
- [07:47]
Michael Wolff
And I think that is a. That is a thing, you know, and almost it feels, you know, he's had this incredible year. Everything essentially has gone right for him. And I think now what we're starting to see is it's not really going right anymore, and it may be going kind of dramatically wrong. And I think, I think he's losing interest in that. I mean, he likes, you know, he likes success. He certainly doesn't like hard work.
- [08:17]
Josh Dawsey
Okay, so things are going a little wrong. I mean, we had.
- [08:23]
Well, where do we begin? Okay, let's begin with him saying, as he did with the Epstein files, that he was going to release the video of the boat in. In Venezuela. That was struck, we thought, perhaps twice, but now it Sounds like it was actually struck four times when there were very clearly survivors clutching to the wreckage.
- [08:46]
Michael Wolff
Pathetic survivors. People half dead, half alive. Yes. Yeah. No, no, no. And he did this in that. Same. With that same kind of. Kind of throwing it off. Basic disregard that he did with the Epstein files. I mean, you know, there was never a point in which he said, we are going to release the Epstein files. It was always somebody bringing this up. And he would go, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. And the Kennedy files and this, that. Any files.
- [09:22]
And then when it came to it, you know, suddenly he had these people who he had appointed to high positions. Pam Bondi, Keshe Patel, people whose reputations actually were involved with releasing the Epstein files. And they came into office and said, we're going to release the Epstein files. Remember, Pam Bondi had, you know.
- [09:45]
Josh Dawsey
Yeah. She had them on a desk, as.
- [09:47]
Michael Wolff
Though, you know, which was always a Trump thing. You know, everybody, they get these. I've seen this before. They get, you know, notebook thinking, looking things with blank pages. Yes, there they are.
- [10:00]
And.
- [10:01]
Suddenly Trump was like, what the fuck? You know, how did this happen? And then he had to. And then he closed that down. We are never, never, ever releasing these Epstein files until they force us. And we still haven't seen the files. So who knows what's going to happen? But this, the Hegseth video. Let's start to call it the Hegseth video.
- [10:25]
Josh Dawsey
Hegseth video, Yep.
- [10:27]
Michael Wolff
You know, he kind of said that was kind of like, well, will you release this? Somebody asked him, will you? And he was like, sure, sure. And then I think. I think in the last couple of days, people have said, hey, you know, you know, they're going to force us. They're going to force this issue. They really want this, this release. Do you know what is on this?
- [10:50]
And then he, you know, then he went, interesting. He. He didn't. He didn't say, yes, we'll release. I mean, he could have sacrificed Hegseth at that point. Yes, we're going to release them. Knowing that this was going to be the moment of doom for poor Pete, seeing these wretched people in the water being bombed to smithereens instead of sacrificing Pete, because he really doesn't like to sacrifice people. I mean, it really, you know, he doesn't like anybody to force his hand. So instead he said, no, we're not releasing this or only. We're only going to release it if Pete wants to release it.
- [11:38]
Josh Dawsey
Right. I thought he shifted the responsibility onto Pete, which he did by saying, well, I wouldn't have bombed it twice. I would have just done it once.
- [11:47]
Michael Wolff
But, but so far he's saving Pete. I mean, I don't think he's going to be able to save Pete. I think Pete is, I mean, so hopeless that he is.
- [11:59]
He'S, he's unsavable, unsalvageable.
- [12:04]
Josh Dawsey
Well, and I don't think that Trump wants to be blamed with war crimes, does he? I mean, there is something very serious behind this. That, yes, there's the hegseth and pushing.
- [12:16]
Michael Wolff
Responsibility, but I mean, of course there's something serious about it. There's people lives. There's a whole way of, you know, the whole structure of.
- [12:28]
World morality is essentially at issue here. But I think it's more important to him that he, that he continue to appear to be strong, continue to, not to bend to what the media wants him to do, not to be told what to do. I mean, he would certainly sacrifice world morality for that, but he's not going.
- [12:53]
Josh Dawsey
To want to end up in the Hague. I mean, what's the logical extension of this if America gets found guilty of war crimes?
- [13:00]
Michael Wolff
No, there is nothing. Let's not even go there because.
- [13:05]
That'S nowhere. And remember, you know, the Supreme Court has let him off anything that he does in his official capacity. He has effective immunity for he is a free pass.
- [13:21]
Josh Dawsey
But it undermines his case for the Nobel Peace Prize, even though he greedily accepted the FIFA Peace Prize this year.
- [13:31]
Michael Wolff
You know, I don't thinki mean that's illogical to an extreme anyway. So I don't think that he is proceeding by logical thinking toward the Nobel Peace Prize. He's proceeding by Trump thinking it's a fantasy. And I'm sure that he never really thought, you know, that he would bethat the world would come together and say he's a great peacemaker. What he has thought is I will be able to, I will be able to pressure enough people and I will have created a situation in which people will want to suck up to me enough that I will get the Nobel Peace Prize. Which is, which is still not out of, it's not beyond. I mean, it seems to recede evermore every day.
- [14:26]
But, you know, I may be wrong on that. I mean, people do suck up to this guy.
- [14:31]
Josh Dawsey
Well, the Swedes and the Norwegians seem resolute not to give it to him. I mean, they were fairly.
- [14:40]
Severe in their comments.
- [14:41]
Michael Wolff
Yes, yes, well, you know, they, they, yes, well, they're Swedes and Norwegians.
- [14:46]
Josh Dawsey
Oh, yes. We are not going to give him The Peace Prize. That sounds a little bit. I mean, they're not going to give.
- [14:52]
Michael Wolff
Let's not even debate this. He is not going to get the Nobel Peace Prize.
- [14:55]
Josh Dawsey
I know, but, but he got the FIFA Peace Prize which came out of nowhere. They just invented it. And then he put his own medal around his neck.
- [15:05]
Michael Wolff
One of the great corrupt organizations on earth. So.
- [15:10]
Josh Dawsey
Yes, and this is because the America's hosting the World cup this coming summer, so 2026. And so in some sort of strange way, they came over, invented a peace prize and gave it to him and literally he put a medal, it was like a huge cartoon medal and he put it on his head.
- [15:28]
Michael Wolff
No, no. And he doesn't really care because people get this mixed up. As a matter of fact, my 10 year old daughter said, said Trump got the Peace Prize. I'm saying, what are you talking about? It's not possible. She said, definitely he got the Peace Prize.
- [15:43]
Josh Dawsey
So maybe people think he's got it.
- [15:45]
Michael Wolff
And he says, I know, right? And he will start to claim this. Remember, this is like the COVID the fake cover of Time magazine.
- [15:54]
Josh Dawsey
Right. He's just, it's all merged in his head.
- [15:56]
Michael Wolff
Yes. He will award himself the Nobel Peace Prize. I mean, soon he will be saying that the FIFA Peace Prize is much more important than the Nobel Peace Prize.
- [16:06]
Josh Dawsey
Of course, of course. It's a great prize. It's a tremendous prize. It's the PC est of prizes.
- [16:13]
Does the Hegseth video get released?
- [16:16]
Michael Wolff
Good question. I think it does.
- [16:18]
Josh Dawsey
It sounds very disturbing.
- [16:20]
Michael Wolff
I think it does. But you know, I mean, I think, I mean, I mean the game Trump will play, the Trump game, is just to delay this, we delay this, other things will come up, people will be distracted. So if it isn't, if it is released. Yeah, I think, I think then Higseth is going down.
- [16:41]
And that is certainly not going to be good for Trump.
- [16:46]
You know, one of the things that I wonder about, you know, Trump goes around and saying all the time, you know, because again, he doesn't do details. He doesn't want to hear details. Don't tell him anything because he can't listen, as we've discussed before. And he can't really, by the law on information and he can't really comprehend. So what he does, what he does is say, and I've heard him say this on many occasions and the people around him talk about this. He says, finish the job, Finish the job. So you start to say, well, and then he interrupts you. Finish the job. So I think it's very Possible that he said to Hegseth at some point, you know, these guys finish the job. And so Hegseth is bombing repeatedly bombing everybody in these, on these boats until they no longer exist. And he's saying to himself, the President told me to finish the job.
- [17:48]
Josh Dawsey
One thing I'm quite curious about is the Washington Post first ran with the story that Hegseth, I think Hegseth said something like kill everybody. What I'm curious about is there doesn't seem to have been much follow up reporting to that.
- [18:07]
Michael Wolff
Yes. I don't know. And it may not have been kill everybody. It may have been finish the job.
- [18:14]
Josh Dawsey
Right. Well, Admiral Bradley says that Pete Hegseth didn't say that. And obviously we know that Pete Hegseth has got Admiral Bradley's back.
- [18:24]
Michael Wolff
It's Pete Hegseth, you know, I mean, I mean, the moronocracy. He certainly could have said kill everybody. And he may have jumped up and down with glee about this, but it is also possible that he did say finish the job. And it's just they're in this kind of loop of.
- [18:45]
Josh Dawsey
It's the fog of war, Michael. It's the fog of war.
- [18:48]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, it's the fog of Donald Trump. I mean, you know, you don't really know what he wants. You know, I mean, Donald Trump is not sitting down and explaining to you he's not outlining policy, he's not outlining his beliefs, he's not outlining tactics or strategy. He's making pronouncements. Finish the job.
- [19:12]
We're the best. It' syou know, imagine. So if we can defend Pete Hegseth for at least a few seconds. Imagine working for Donald Trump when you're Secretary of War, when you're doing anything, when any interaction you have to have with the man, you have to try the thing is always to. You have to, you have to infer, extrapolate. Imagine actually what he's saying and what he wants.
- [19:43]
Josh Dawsey
Well, maybe Pete Hegseth will be relieved when it's all over. It must be very stressful.
- [19:48]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I'll say. I mean, I think it is incredibly stressful for all of them. I mean, we talked about Mike Johnson last week when he gave.
- [19:59]
That interview, and he basically said, I'm having a nervous breakdown.
- [20:05]
And then every Republican in Congress came out and said, oh my God, he is having a nervous breakdown because he's a moron along with all the other Trump morons.
- [20:15]
Josh Dawsey
Well, and he also said that he didn't feel like he was really speaker of the House. He felt like he was a mental health counselor.
- [20:22]
Michael Wolff
Yes.
- [20:22]
Josh Dawsey
So they're all having breakdowns. Everybody's having a breakdown.
- [20:26]
Michael Wolff
Right. So, because, but understand this, and it's an important point, because Trump is at the center of this, because you don't know what he wants. He's mercurial, he's threatening. He' syou know, you know, you're all. It's all kind of Stockholm syndrome, and he's aging.
- [20:45]
Josh Dawsey
I mean, he is aging. He's falling asleep in cabinet meetings, which are being televised. So God knows what message he thinks that's sending. I mean, he's smart enough to understand this can't look good on television. Or maybe he thinks it's great and it's just what people are talking about.
- [21:01]
Michael Wolff
No, I mean, he clearly doesn't. And he's railing about this, and he's, and, and he's mad at people, but he's also in denial. I didn't fall asleep. I mean, that's what he's saying now. I didn't fall asleep. Well, your eyes were closed. And, I mean, just when I was doing my Murdoch biography, and I sat with Murdoch for many hours a week over the course of a year, and often I would be talking to him and.
- [21:33]
And I would lose him. I mean, you didn't know what had happened. I mean, he would just be, like, frozen. And I had, on many occasions, I thought, I have killed him.
- [21:47]
And then I would ask, I would kind of gingerly say.
- [21:53]
To people around him, I mean, Murdoch had this guy who was always kind of, I mean, his guy, this. He was a PR guy, and he just kind of, kind of navigated around Murdoch constantly and attended to him, a guy by the name of Gary. And I would say, you know, it just, he seems to have, you know, you know, lost. I mean, I don't know what happened. Gary. And Gary would say, no, no, no, he's thinking deeply. He's really thinking. He concentrates very hard. So. And I think the people around Trump have to make those kinds of, kinds of excuses, because you can't say he fell asleep. And Trump is going to say, never admit to falling asleep either.
- [22:39]
Josh Dawsey
Well, it reminds me of that essay that Adam Gottnik wrote in the New Yorker about his shrink falling asleep. And he would go to see him and he was paying for him, and the shrink would just gently nod off. And then Adam would sit there for half an hour wondering what to do, and then wondering whether or not to raise the fact with his shrink that he was falling asleep.
- [23:01]
Michael Wolff
This is true for. I mean, we can be generous here. It's true for, for everyone. I mean, I'm watching a show with my wife at night and she's clearly asleep. And I say, are you asleep? And she says absolutely not.
- [23:18]
Josh Dawsey
Okay, so we don't know whether or not the Hegseth video gets released. Donald Trump said he was going to release it. Now he says he's not going to release it or he never said that he was going to release it.
- [23:28]
Michael Wolff
No, and I mean, this is going to be, this is going to be like the Epstein files. I mean, if Congress. This will only be released if Congress insists on it. And they may. You know, we're in this.
- [23:46]
Transitional moment of a Congress that has been abject.
- [23:55]
In its willingness not to challenge Trump at any level. And now they are. Obviously, that's changing.
- [24:04]
Josh Dawsey
Well, they're sorting out the budget for next year's Department of War and they're saying that they will withhold 25% of the budget if they don't get to see the video. So there's clearly cross party pressure on.
- [24:17]
Michael Wolff
Hegseth to release it, as we've discussed before. And I think we should come back to this again and again. Everybody In Washington, everybody, 100%, certainly all Democrats, but 100% also of Republicans, think Pete Hegseth is a joke, a fool, a joke, an embarrassment to anybody who is in office at this point in time.
- [24:45]
Josh Dawsey
Yeah. And I think I was telling you that I had had dinner with someone who was formerly very senior in the military who said exactly the same thing, but they think he's an absolute moron.
- [24:55]
Michael Wolff
This is not anything new. You know, when he was at Fox News, people thought he was a moron. I mean, he is the low man, wherever he is. He's not smart, he's not honest, he's not competent. Let'sand he's a drunk. So the package is really complete.
- [25:20]
Josh Dawsey
Well, and the other thing that's crazy is that he's actually the second most important man in America after the president. It's not J.D. vance, because Pete Hegseth is in charge of the military.
- [25:33]
Michael Wolff
Well, it always goes, whether it's the Secretary of State or the Secretary of the Defense or as we now say, the Secretary of War. I've never uttered those words. That's. But.
- [25:48]
Yeah, no, I mean, it's, I mean, it's not even. It's also.
- [25:56]
One of the most profound and confounding management jobs on earth to manage the Pentagon, the United States military.
- [26:08]
This is, I mean, you're not only managing a vast.
- [26:14]
A vast personnel Base, possibly the largest personnel base in.
- [26:23]
Josh Dawsey
Government.
- [26:24]
Michael Wolff
Not only in any business. There may not be any business that has more employees than the, than the, than the Department of Defense.
- [26:33]
Josh Dawsey
Amazon. Doesn't Amazon have more employees?
- [26:36]
Michael Wolff
No. Can't possibly. No, I don't. I say that with great authority, and I have no idea. But at any rate, it's a lot of people with guns. And then, and then, you know, it's, it's, it's also then a business, I mean, a technology business that has to be managed at the same time anyway.
- [26:57]
Josh Dawsey
Well, and it's also a business that doesn't have.
- [27:03]
Official oversight by the press, because Pete Hegseth has sent them all away. And of course, now the New York Times is suing them, suing Hegseth and the Department of War, saying that they're infringing on the First Amendment for the New York Times to actually write about what's going on there. I mean, it's not stopping people from writing about it. I mean, interestingly, since they've kept the press away, we've had the story come out in the Washington Post that Hegseth was behind bombing the boats as many times as they needed to.
- [27:34]
Michael Wolff
Let's make a little book on this. How long do we think Hegseth lasts?
- [27:40]
Josh Dawsey
I think he lasts till the New Year.
- [27:43]
Michael Wolff
Till the New Year. Okay.
- [27:44]
Josh Dawsey
I think they released the video and he has to go. And I think that will take some time, but I bet he doesn't go until the New Year.
- [27:50]
Michael Wolff
Great. Okay.
- [27:51]
Josh Dawsey
You think he goes before.
- [27:52]
Michael Wolff
No, no, no, no, no. I mean, the New Year is.
- [27:56]
Frighteningly almost upon us. So. No, and as I say, you know, the Trump thing is delay, delay, delay, delay, delay, delay. And, you know, it's a veryyou know, the theory is which people around Trump actuallyi don't know if Trump has articulated this. I doubt he has, but people around him say very reasonably, you know, all kinds of things happen. The longer you push something out, the more, the greater the chance is that something will happen to change the discussion, change everything. And.
- [28:34]
You know, it's like sometimes I'll agree to, you know, do something I don't want to do, you know, for months out thinking, you know, I could be dead by then. And I think that that's a lot of what goes on in Trump's head and, and in the people around Trump thinking, how are we going to ever survive this? And let's take a commercial break.
- [28:57]
Josh Dawsey
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- [32:57]
Michael Wolff
And we're back talking about Trump's takeover of Hollywood.
- [33:01]
Josh Dawsey
So Michael Marjorie Taylor Greene did an interview with 60 Minutes on Sunday, which was going out at the same time as Donald Trump was attending the Trump campaign Kennedy Center Honors. He then sort of went berserk at Paramount saying, you're just as bad as the last lot. You know, CBS is terrible. This is not what I expected kind of thing. And of course it's significant because Paramount threw in a hostile bid for Warner Brothers. Right.
- [33:32]
Michael Wolff
Well, let's, let's unpack a few things here. But before we even go there, you know, it's, it's, he has this 60 Minutes fixation. I mean, nobody has watched 60 Minutes in years.
- [33:45]
But his fixation with 60 Minutes is like his fixation like Time magazine, I mean, Time magazine, Time magazine wants an interview. Everything stops in the White House. Time magazine doesn't even really exist anymore. It's just, you know, a kind of a memory. It doesn't make any difference. And like 60 Minutes, you know, Trump is, is, and it's important constantly to remember this, that Trump is a guy lost in the past, which is.
- [34:15]
A curiosity since he is so much the guy who defines the present. But that, you know, that's a weird mix up, which history is going to have to unravel.
- [34:27]
Josh Dawsey
But anyway, yes, and he has his own truth social platform, his own social media platform where he goes berserk at 2 in the morning, firing off insane missives to people, the latest being to the Supreme Court. But let's come back to that. But let's first unpack the Warner Brothers, Paramount, Netflix, conflicting offers.
- [34:48]
Michael Wolff
Right. So out of this, this 60 Minutes thing and then he, he went, he went crazy about that and then therefore crazy about, about.
- [35:00]
The Paramount. 60 Minutes is a show on CBS. CBS is owned by Paramount, which was recently sold in a seminal deal to a company called Sky Dance. Sky Dance. I was going to say Skyhorse, but that's another, that's another.
- [35:24]
Josh Dawsey
That's the publisher of Melania Robert Kennedy. Right, Melania book and Robert F. Kennedy's books, because no one else will publish this book.
- [35:32]
Michael Wolff
Sold to the Ellison family. So Larry Ellison is the second richest man in the world, something like the.
- [35:43]
Josh Dawsey
Founder of Oracle computers.
- [35:44]
Michael Wolff
Yes. 200 million, 300 million. A billion. What? Million.
- [35:50]
Josh Dawsey
Yeah, billion.
- [35:51]
Michael Wolff
Billion. And his son, this is just, he just can't make this stuff up. So he gave his son.
- [36:01]
An entertainment company. You need a job, you know, why don't you buy cbs? It's a, you know, television network, and they own a movie studio. You'll be in the movies. What kid doesn't want to be?
- [36:17]
And so that deal happened. And that deal happened partly because it had the favor of the Trump administration. It had the favor of the Trump administration, partly or wholly, because Larry Ellison has been a dedicated contributor to Donald Trump and a loyal supporter.
- [36:47]
So they did that deal, and now and then they made a overture to buy Warner Discovery. So that's Warner Brothers, hbo, cnn, the.
- [37:03]
Josh Dawsey
Disc, all the Discovery channels.
- [37:06]
Michael Wolff
All of the Discovery channels, although no one knows what they are.
- [37:10]
Josh Dawsey
Food Network and hgtv.
- [37:14]
Michael Wolff
Thank you.
- [37:14]
Josh Dawsey
And I think own, which is Oprah's channel. Right.
- [37:18]
Michael Wolff
It may be, it's an irrelevant part and it's an irrelevancy in this deal.
- [37:22]
Josh Dawsey
However, it's a cable business, which Netflix doesn't want.
- [37:26]
Michael Wolff
Okay, so your, so at any rate, the overture from, from the Ellison family put Warner's into play.
- [37:37]
Then Warner's said, okay, if you want to buy us, you know, somebody wants to buy us, we're for sale at the right price or for the highest, highest price. So a lot of companies then were interested in this, including Comcast.
- [37:57]
The Ellisons, Netflix, I think maybe there was another bidder. But anyway.
- [38:04]
And they went through this process and Netflix won. They won for the simple reason that they bid more money than anybody else. But the Ellisons have been, have, their position has been, no, we should have won because we know Donald Trump. Essentially, you're not going to be able Netflix, you're not going to be able to get your merger approved. But we can get our merger approved because we know Donald Trump. Mr. I did. I met with Ted. I think he's fantastic. I think he's in the history of Hollywood. There's really been almost, you could say nothing like what he's done. You'd go back to Louis B. Mayer, maybe Metro, Golden Mayor, mgm. He came up. He was in the Oval Office last week. I have a lot of respect for him. He's a great. He's a great person. But he's done one of the greatest jobs in the history of movies and other things. And he's got a lot of interesting things happening aside from what you're talking about. But it is a big market share. There's no question about it. It could be a problem.
- [39:11]
Between the Ellisons and Paramount and Netflix. Nobody should do this deal. I mean that. These are both preposterous combinations against the law. They are, they are both. All of these companies are in the same industry. They are competitors. When they buy, when one buys the other, that becomes anticompetitive. That's a monopoly. That's against the law. But I suppose. Pay no mind to that. That's not the issue. The issue is.
- [39:46]
The issue is, well, a, who's going to pay more and B, possibly. And this would be really a decidedly new wrinkle in the mergers and acquisitions business who Donald Trump likes more. So at any rate, Netflix was.
- [40:09]
Warner's, agreed to be sold to Netflix because they bid the highest amount of money. But the Ellison family has now made a hostile bid. They've basically said, no, no, no, no, we are, we are.
- [40:26]
They have, they have two points. We're. We are actually. We've raised our price and we're actually paying more money. That's unclear, but that's what they're maintaining. But more importantly, the Netflix people are never going to be able to get this deal done. And we can get it done because Donald Trump likes us. So they've gone directly to the shareholders. So the shareholders, at this point, the shareholders in Warners just, they just want a deal. The last thing that they want to be left with is Warners. And that happens just because in this arbitrage thing, you know, the sharealot of the shareholders, it gets to a high price and then they cash out. And then the people who get in are just the arbitragers, basically. And so they need a deal and will do anything to force a deal. They don't really care. They just want the highest price, A, the highest price and the deal that can get done.
- [41:29]
Josh Dawsey
And of course, one of the other people that the Ellisons have brought into this deal that they're putting.
- [41:36]
Michael Wolff
I totally forgot about this. This is like, right, that's. Here's the headline.
- [41:41]
Josh Dawsey
Do that's also a wrinkle. Well, I mean, who else but affinity partners, Jared Kushner's venture capital company and of course, lots of, of money from the Middle East.
- [41:53]
Michael Wolff
It's totally. So basically, I mean, not only are the Ellis are the Ellisons taking the position that, you know, we support Donald Trump, therefore he's going to support us, but we're going to go and get and support his son in law.
- [42:07]
Josh Dawsey
Right.
- [42:08]
Michael Wolff
And his son in law will bring this home.
- [42:11]
Josh Dawsey
I mean, this is such an extraordinary moment in American business. I mean, I can't. We've about talked, talked a lot about the grift. The grift has been written about endlessly. We know that Jared raised $2 billion from the Saudi sovereign fund for his affinity partners. This seems a level of conflict of interest above anything I can think of.
- [42:35]
Michael Wolff
Well, let's think. I mean, it seems to me there's conflict of interest almost in anything that Donald Trump touches. But then, but then let's segue Back to.
- [42:49]
This 60 Minutes wrinkle because the problem with dealing with Donald Trump even in an open, straightforward grift.
- [43:03]
We'Re going to support you with any kind of money that you need and we're going to bring your son in law in and, and make him even richer than he already is and.
- [43:17]
The wealth is just going to flow to you. Even then. You can't depend on Donald Trump.
- [43:23]
Josh Dawsey
Right. Well, and I mean, it's just crazy that Marjorie Taylor Greene, or Marjorie Traitor Greene as he calls her, would go onwould go on 60 minutes and trash him and trash him in a meaningful way, actually saying that she's had death rates, she's had a pipe bomb threat at her home, that her children are frightened. Can you imagine having been the journalist with that booking, with that booking and think this is going to blow everything up. Trump is going to be furious. He thinks he's got CBS tamed, his friends own it and somehow they've sneaked up in Marjorie Taylor Greene. I mean, it's quite a feat.
- [44:04]
Michael Wolff
I just wanted to add that what I can't imagine is having Marjorie Taylor Greene as your mother. But put that aside.
- [44:14]
Josh Dawsey
Let's put that aside. It's not her children's fault.
- [44:17]
Michael Wolff
Totally. It' syou know, the whole Trump thing, I mean, it is not just the grift, it is dominance. I must dominate. It must be, you can't do, you can't cross me in any possible way.
- [44:38]
You know. So even if the Ellisons are going to pay him and his son in law and everybody else around him, the fact that 60 Minutes would devote any time to one of his enemies means, you know, let's blow up the deal. You know, at least the guy with the grift you could say, well, you know, that's, there's a level of rationality there. You want the money, right? You can't even say that here.
- [45:07]
Josh Dawsey
Well, also the other interesting thing is that at least my understanding of the deal is that Netflix wants to buy the studio and the streaming business, but it doesn't want the cable channels. Paramount is offering to take off is to take the entirety of Warner Brothers. So you also then get cnn and there's been all sorts of rumors that Trump hates CNN because they've been critical of him. So he wants CNN to go full maga, which will be another incentive for him to support the Paramount League.
- [45:39]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, you would think that in Trumpian terms this is what he wants now, which doesn't mean, because actually there are, there are actual business issues here, that he will get this. I mean, the shareholders, in the end, you know, the shareholders of Warner Discovery are going to have to decide and shareholders are.
- [46:07]
Pretty exclusively prone to taking the highest bid. And it would appear that the, that the Netflix bid, which may well go up, is still by substantially ahead of the, of the Paramount bid. So the Paramount bid is kind of saying, you know, we can actually wink, wink, pay less because Donald Trump is our friend. But who knows? At any rate, we should also say finish this out by saying neither of these companies should get the, this deal. That this is going to be disastrous for, well, probably disastrous for these companies as, as most media mergers are, but also just disastrous for, for Hollywood, the creative community, for, for the audiences who are just going to see, you know, when, when there is only one company at the center of things. You know, the product gets, you know, gets lazy, homogenous, you know, crap. And once more, a word from our sponsors.
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Michael Wolff
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Michael Wolff
Wait, no subscription?
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- [48:18]
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Michael Wolff
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- [49:50]
And we're back talking about Trump's takeover of Hollywood.
- [49:54]
Josh Dawsey
Well, the other thing I wanted to ask you about was where is the TikTok deal? Because Larry Ellison of Oracle is supposed to be.
- [50:05]
I mean, he and Trump have also in theory organized the TikTok deal between themselves. Totally.
- [50:10]
Michael Wolff
I don't know the answer to this and. Because it's just one of those things that we should know the answer to, but it just gets, gets, you know, you know, events supersede it. Yeah, no, the TikTok deal is another bit of absolute incomprehensible egregiousness and a fundamental violation of whatever capitalism is supposed to be. It's this other thing, state supported capitalism, which is not capitalism.
- [50:43]
But yeah, I mean, Trump basically took over TikTok Tock and then has divvied it out to his friends, including Larry Ellison, including Rupert Murdoch.
- [50:53]
Josh Dawsey
Right. Ok, so we should find out for our next inside Trump's head. So did you watch the, did you watch any of the clips of Donald Trump at the Kennedy, the Trump Kennedy center, as he's now jokingly calling it?
- [51:08]
Michael Wolff
No. Jesus Christ.
- [51:14]
I mean, that's one of those other things. Let's take over this. So you have a cultural institution in Washington, D.C. which is, has a relationship to the government, but is, but is a, you know, has its own, has its own board of directors, its own governance. But nevertheless, Trump came in, took it over, threw everybody out, put his.
- [51:39]
Lackeys and factotums into the, populated the board.
- [51:43]
Josh Dawsey
With that, I think his former German ambassador, Rick Grenell.
- [51:47]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, Rick Grenell is gay. And that's what Trump said. We need a gay guy who's running the, it's show business. We need a gay guy.
- [51:57]
Josh Dawsey
Is that what he said?
- [51:58]
Michael Wolff
Yes. Yeah, totally. So anyway, the.
- [52:04]
So he took over the Kennedy center, which means that almost every professional involved with the Kennedy center has run in the opposite direction. The audience has run in the opposite direction. Correct. The entire institution has been fundamentally denuded and leaving only Donald Trump on the stage, which is what has happened. Donald Trump on the, in the recent Kennedy.
- [52:35]
What is that thing?
- [52:36]
Josh Dawsey
Honors the Kennedy 70 honors.
- [52:38]
Michael Wolff
Donald Trump was the emcee, his dream job.
- [52:42]
Josh Dawsey
Well, and he actually said at the end of emceeing and we should talk about him talking about Michael Crawford, because Michael Crawford inaugurated the role of Andrew Lloyd Weber's Phantom of the Opera, which turns out to be Donald Trump's favorite favorite musical. And it is a very powerful musical, and people have loved it for years. And it ran and ran and ran in the West End and on Broadway.
- [53:06]
Michael Wolff
Have you ever seen it?
- [53:07]
Josh Dawsey
Do you know, the awful thing is you can't really.
- [53:10]
Michael Wolff
No, of course you have it. It's terrible. It's terrible. Anyway.
- [53:14]
Josh Dawsey
Is it terrible?
- [53:15]
Michael Wolff
Of course it is. I mean, it's Trumpy.
- [53:18]
Josh Dawsey
And I actually can't remember if I've seen it or not.
- [53:20]
Michael Wolff
Anyway.
- [53:21]
Josh Dawsey
All right, it's Trumpian pablum. But my point is, a lot of people like it, right? So he gave the award to Michael Crawford, the British guy who inaugurated the role. But just the way he was talking about Michael Crawford and his voice. And his voice is fabulous and he's got this crowd. It was just on and on. It was just. This is not what the Kennedy Honors were supposed to be. They were supposed to be this serious moment in American cultural life. And. And once again, Donald Trump has sort of trashed it. And also then at the end he said, people have been saying that perhaps I should get a Kennedy on a pair. I think I'll nominate myself. And you're like, oh, my God, just for once, make it not about you.
- [54:02]
Commercial Announcer
No.
- [54:02]
Michael Wolff
The Kennedy, the Kennedy Center Peace Prize, perhaps.
- [54:06]
Josh Dawsey
The Kennedy center. The Trumpet.
- [54:09]
Michael Wolff
So many peace prizes that of course.
- [54:15]
Josh Dawsey
It'S crazy. He'll award himself a medal and pin it on himself. So, actually, Melania accompanied Donald Trump to the Kennedy Center Honours. And we've seen a bit more of her this week. And if you haven't seen it, I want to encourage everybody to watch the video of Melania reading a book about Santa to children. And the book is called How Does Santa Go down the Chimney? And I literally thought I was switching on to a spoof at first because she goes, does he wear night goggles? Does he wear night vision goggles or heat vision goggles? And I was thinking, this is a spoof on Pete Hegseth. Right. But no, not at all. And it's called how does Santa. Santa go down the Chimney? I mean, it was just the most bizarre, the most bizarre reading of a Christmas book I've ever heard.
- [55:14]
Michael Wolff
Maybe you could do it. How the. Does Santa go down the chimney?
- [55:18]
Josh Dawsey
Yeah, how the Santa go down the chimney? I can't quite get her accent today. A few people have been commenting on my accent. By the way, we got lots of comments on your slightly dismissal of the people in the boats as drug dealers. They're just drug mules. And we, a lot. We have no idea who these people are. We have no idea.
- [55:42]
Michael Wolff
In my defense, I said purported drug couriers. We don't know who they are, but that's what, that's what they are. That's what the government, our government purports them to be.
- [55:56]
Josh Dawsey
Yeah, they do purport them to be there, even though they're not coming anywhere near us. And it would take them 20 oil changes to get here.
- [56:05]
Michael Wolff
I want credit for my. The way I accented purported.
- [56:12]
Josh Dawsey
Okay, so, Michael, it's time for me to leave. I'm going to go out on the town in Abu Dhabi. We'll be back on Thursday where we can discuss your progress in getting our first lady under oath, because I know you have lots of questions for her. So just reminding people to send in questions for Michael's suit against the first lady.
- [56:33]
Michael Wolff
Yes, fantastic. And I appreciate them. And they. I am actually told that I am getting the first draft of the list of people who will be supporting subpoenaed today. So I hope to have to be able to report on that very soon.
- [56:55]
Josh Dawsey
Well, and have you put that list together? These are people that your lawyers say you want to talk to first?
- [57:00]
Michael Wolff
Yes, we have been in, we have been all conferring with this with several researchers on this. But you can add anyone in terms of asking Melania. It doesn't just have to be Melania. You can ask anyone who you can propose, anyone you think we should subpoena and who might be able to answer relevant questions about Melania, about Melania and her husband.
- [57:31]
Josh Dawsey
Are you allowed to subpoena other members of her family?
- [57:34]
Michael Wolff
We can subpoena, I believe anyone who might have relevant information.
- [57:39]
Josh Dawsey
It would be interesting to subpoena Marla Maples on when she understood Donald Trump and Melania first met.
- [57:48]
Michael Wolff
Okay, just throwing that out there sounds like a good idea.
- [57:51]
Josh Dawsey
Anyway, if you have been thank you for joining us. Don't forget to leave us a comment and subscribe.
- [57:57]
Michael Wolff
You go to bed in Abu Dhabi.
- [57:59]
Josh Dawsey
And most importantly, don't forget to be Beast.
- [58:03]
Michael Wolff
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- [60:44]
Michael Wolff
Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily Beast podcast@thedailybeast.com podcasts if you enjoyed this.
- [60:53]
Josh Dawsey
Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscriber Subscribing is the best way to.
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Josh Dawsey
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Josh Dawsey
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