Why Susie Wiles Can't Deny Spilling Trump Secrets

Summary

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The Daily Beast Podcast

Episode: Why Susie Wiles Can't Deny Spilling Trump Secrets

Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Chris Whipple (Vanity Fair Contributor, Author, Journalist)
Date: December 17, 2025

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Overview

In this riveting episode, Joanna Coles sits down with Chris Whipple, who recently penned an explosive Vanity Fair profile of Susie Wiles, Donald Trump's current White House Chief of Staff. Whipple, who conducted 11 on-the-record interviews with Wiles over nearly a year, reveals the extraordinary access he gained and the unguarded insights shared by one of the most powerful women in American politics. The discussion explores the fallout from the article, what Wiles really thinks of her colleagues, and how her candor has shaken up the Trump White House. The episode provides listeners with a rare, behind-the-scenes view of Trump's inner circle, the controversies now roiling Washington, and the personal dynamics defining the administration's second term.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Fallout from Whipple's Piece on Susie Wiles

• Why the article is so consequential (05:15):

  • Whipple describes the piece as a "lightning strikes" moment in a reporter's career, both in terms of access and the revelations that emerged about Trump 2.0 and Wiles’ role inside the White House.
  • He notes the unprecedented support Wiles received from the cabinet post-publication.

• White House and Wiles' reactions (06:22, 07:08):

  • Joanna Coles reads Susie Wiles' public statement denouncing the piece as a "disingenuously framed hit piece." Whipple responds that, despite the outrage, "the White House has not disputed a single fact in the piece because we're on absolutely solid ground."

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2. The Nature of the Interviews and Access

• How the profile came about (08:26):
  • Whipple explains that Wiles was enthusiastic about participating due to his reputation for fairness (after writing The Gatekeepers) and was aware the piece would be for Vanity Fair.
• Transparency and control (09:26):
  • Interviews were lengthy, all on the record, and were accompanied by Vanity Fair's photographer. The White House knew and accepted the arrangement, further affirming the piece’s credibility.

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3. Notable Revelations from the Interviews

a. Trump's "Alcoholic's Personality"

• Wiles' comment and Trump’s reaction (10:39, 11:24, 11:37):
  • Wiles described Trump as having an "alcoholics personality," referencing his grandiosity and compulsions rather than substance use.
  • Trump publicly confirms he has "a possessive and addictive type personality," is not offended, and continues to support Wiles.

Quote - Chris Whipple (11:43):
"She understands the personality of an alcoholic ... And when she applies it to Donald Trump, obviously she doesn't mean that he's a drinker. ... But he does have this grandiose personality, untethered sometimes to reality. My words, not hers."

b. Susie Wiles' Reluctant Limelight

• Despite claiming to shun the public eye, Wiles gave Whipple unprecedented access, including personal details and office layouts, which Coles finds paradoxical (13:28).
• Whipple speculates that Wiles trusted he would be fair:

Quote (14:03):
"I like to think that maybe ... she knows the piece is fair because it is. They’re certainly her words, not mine."

c. Cabinet and Colleague Dynamics

• J.D. Vance’s transformation: Wiles claims Vance’s rapid shift from fierce critic to Trump’s VP pick was "sort of political," in contrast to Marco Rubio’s more gradual, principled journey (19:54, 20:17).

Quote - Whipple (20:17):
"[Vance’s] conversion was sort of political quote unquote. ... That was remarkably candid and interesting."

• Elon Musk "microdosing": Wiles speculated Musk may have been microdosing ketamine during erratic Twitter episodes, though she disclaims personal knowledge (19:54, 20:09).

• Cabinet as disruptors: Wiles describes her cabinet as "disruptors," lauding the likes of Pete Hegseth and Bobby Kennedy for their outsider stances (27:46, 28:32).

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4. The Role and Challenge of Being Chief of Staff

• Historic position: Wiles is recognized as the first female chief of staff, with a notably close working relationship with Trump (22:49).
• Comparison to Trump's 1st term chaos: Trump 2.0 described as more stable due to Wiles' leadership, in contrast to the "killing field" of Trump 1.0 where chiefs of staff cycled rapidly (23:14).
• The core question: Can Wiles tell Trump uncomfortable truths? Whipple frames this as the essential test of any effective chief of staff, noting the journey across his yearlong reporting (24:23, 33:35):

Quote - Whipple (34:06):
"The real test is, has she told him hard truths? ... and will he listen? And, boy, it’s just not clear that she’s able to do that."

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5. Gender, Perception, and Power

• “Not an enabler, not a bitch” (28:32):
  • Wiles strongly rejects labels sometimes attached to female leaders, responding sharply to Leon Panetta’s (Clinton’s chief of staff) musings about whether she’s an “enabler or a disciplinarian.”
  • Whipple and Coles discuss the challenge of a woman navigating the chief of staff’s traditional truth-to-power role in Trump’s White House.

Quote - Wiles via Whipple (28:38):
"I’m not an enabler and I’m not a bitch. That’s about as salty as Susie Wiles gets."

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6. Media, Messaging, and Denials

• Denials and parallels to British Royals (37:33):
  • Coles compares Wiles’ denials of the interview’s authenticity to Princess Diana’s secret media strategies.
  • Whipple, echoing Michael Wolff, dismisses the idea of “four-dimensional chess” and suggests Wiles simply kept talking, not for calculated ends but perhaps for fairness’ sake.

Quote - Whipple (39:21):
"It might be checkers, but I just don’t think they’re that clever about it ... she just started talking and wanted to talk, thought she had ... a fair [hearing] and just kept talking."

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7. Likelihood of Wiles’ Survival and Her Uniqueness

• Will she be fired? (43:16):

  • Whipple gives her a "90%" chance of remaining chief of staff, citing her unique bond with Trump and the absence of alternatives.

• Is anyone indispensable? (44:18):

  • “Nobody is indispensable,” Whipple concedes, but Wiles has as tight a hold as anyone ever has on the role.

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8. The Human Side of Susie Wiles

• Did Whipple like her? (44:39):
  • "She's really a likable person ... she seemed willing in a way that ... senior White House officials hardly ever [are] to just let it rip and boy, did she."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chris Whipple, on Wiles’ candor (45:27):

  "Susie, to her credit, was willing to just let it rip and boy, did she."

• Wiles on difficult men (12:28):

  "She’d be the first to tell you that she has a PhD in difficult men."

• Wiles defending her approach to power (28:38):

  "I'm not an enabler and I'm not a bitch."

• Joanna Coles, on the paradox of Wiles’ publicity (13:28):

  "She claims not to like the limelight ... yet she found the time to sit with you or talk to you for 11 interviews. What's that about?"

• Whipple, on the report's impact (17:04):

  "Susie ... in her candor, she has revealed some unspoken truths about the way this White House functions."

• On the Trump-Wiles bond (46:02):

  “When they first sat down and had a talk about working together, Donald Trump was sort of in awe. ... He believes in two things. He believes in winning and he believes in great genius—G-E-N-E-S. And she had it.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Chris Whipple describes the reporting process and White House reaction – 02:49, 05:15, 07:08
• Wiles' "alcoholic's personality" comment and Trump’s response – 10:39, 11:24, 11:37
• Deep dive into Wiles’ background and motivations – 12:28–14:03
• Cabinet dynamics and the JD Vance “conversion” – 19:54–21:21
• Experiences as first female chief of staff and the challenge of telling Trump hard truths – 22:30–24:23, 33:35–34:06
• Gender, power, and the enabler/bitch dilemma – 28:32–30:43
• Denials, media management, and the British Royal Family parallel – 37:33–39:21
• Prediction on Wiles’ job security – 43:16–44:18
• Whipple’s view on Wiles personally – 44:39–45:27
• Insight into the Trump-Wiles partnership – 46:02

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Conclusion

This episode offers an unvarnished, deeply reported look into the current Trump White House through the eyes of its most powerful woman. Whipple’s reporting and Coles’ incisive questioning reveal a portrait of Susie Wiles as both brilliant political operator and unexpected truth-teller, now at the whirlwind center of political controversy. Whether Wiles’ candor will ultimately strengthen her position or hasten her downfall remains to be seen—but her unprecedented access and honesty have already begun to reshape the narrative of Trump 2.0.

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For those seeking the inside story behind the headlines, this interview is an essential listen—and the accompanying Vanity Fair piece is a must-read for anyone following American politics.

Transcript

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[Chris Whipple]

This journey that I took with Susie Wiles, of her speaking to me unguarded and on the record for 11 months. It's interesting that the White House has not disputed a single fact in the piece because we're on absolutely solid ground. My instinct, having covered a few White Houses, is that with this White House and with Susie, it's never four dimensional chess ever. I think Michael Wolff would agree with probably.

[Joanna Coles]

I think he would.

[Chris Whipple]

I think it's never, it's never even three dimensional chess. It's never, it's not even chess.

[Joanna Coles]

Is it checkers?

[Chris Whipple]

It might be checkers.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. And what a hullabaloo out of the White House over Chris Whipple, a former producer for 60 Minutes on ABC News and now a contributor to Vanity Fair. What a hullabaloo. About his piece on Susie Wiles. Donald Trump's chief of staff. Chris Whipple did 11 interviews with Susie Wiles and oh, what secrets she revealed. JD Vance's transformation from someone who thought that don't Donald Trump was the new Hitler to his vice president was a political decision. Elon Musk, when he's tweeting crazy things is in fact microdosing. And Donald Trump, Donald Trump has an alcoholics personality. Well, the White House itself has come out with its arms around Susie Wiles. The entire cabinet has tweeted their support and Donald Trump has said, you know, she barely spoke to Chris Whipple. Maybe one, maybe two interviews. It's very clear he, he didn't know very much about it. Anyway, no time to waste. We have the man himself right here. Chris Whipple. Let's get into it. Chris, you posted on Facebook last night that the most important piece you'd ever done was going to drop this morning at 7 o'. Clock. It did drop and I think it's fair to say all hell has broken out in the White House. Every single member of the Cabinet has tweeted about your subject. Tell us why this is the most important piece you've ever done.

[Chris Whipple]

It's one of those cases where, Joanna, where, you know, every once in a while in a reporter's career, lightning strikes and this was surely a case, this journey that I took with Susie Wiles of her speaking to me with unguarded and on the record for 11 months. It's extraordinary, and it's an extraordinary glimpse. It's not just a profile of a person who I think is arguably the most fascinating person in American politics, but it's an inside glimpse of Trump 2.0 from a member of the inner circle. And so for those reasons, this just doesn't happen very often. But you can read all about it in Vanity Fair.

[Joanna Coles]

So, Chris, why is she so upset about it? I mean, this has prompted Susie Wiles, who you say is the most important woman in American politics.

[Chris Whipple]

Most fascinating.

[Joanna Coles]

Most fascinating. Most fascinating. Yes. You've driven her to Twitter. She hasn't tweeted for over a year. And she said today, the article published early this morning is a disingenuously framed hit piece on me and the finest president, White House staff and cabinet in history. And then she goes on to say significant context was disregarded and much of what I and others said about the team and the president was left out of the story. I assume after reading it that this was done to paint an overwhelmingly chaotic and negative narrative about the president and our team. Why do you think she's so upset by your piece?

[Chris Whipple]

Well, let's put this in a little bit of perspective, shall we? I'm old enough to remember the Watergate era, when Ben Bradlee used to refer to non denial denials. And this is right up there. I'm not saying this is Watergate. It is an inside glimpse into the White House. But it's interesting that the White House has not disputed a single fact in the piece, because we're on absolutely solid ground. Everything in that piece, everything Susie said, was on the record and on tape, by the way. So, look, I understand that, you know, they've made a statement, it speaks for itself, but the Vanity Fair piece is absolutely solid and all of her comments were on the record.

[Joanna Coles]

And of course, all the people around her sat for photographs, too, we should point out.

[Chris Whipple]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Joanna Coles]

As you said, your access was unprecedented, certainly in Trump 2.0. What did you tell her about the piece before you embarked on this journey together?

[Chris Whipple]

Well, I first spoke to her back in January, 10 days before she took office. And at that point, she knew that I was the author of a book on White House chiefs of staff. She was the incoming White House chief of staff.

[Joanna Coles]

Your book, of course, is the Gatekeepers. And you interviewed 17, I think, chiefs of staff for it and two presidents.

[Chris Whipple]

That's right. And so, look, I think that she was. She was open to talking to me, because I do think that because of the gatekeepers, I had a reputation for fairness and for not, you know, for being very open evenhanded on both sides of the aisle. When I, when the subject of Vanity Fair came up, that this would become a piece for Vanity Fair, I can tell you she was all in. She was enthusiastic about it. And here we are.

[Joanna Coles]

So what did Donald Trump know about the piece?

[Chris Whipple]

Good question. I honestly don't know. My, I dealt with Susie, we spoke, we had 11 long interviews over 11 months. And I told her at one point that I'd be certainly open to talking to the President, but that didn't happen. And so I not only interviewed Susie in depth, on the record, over all that time, but I interviewed Marco Rubio, J.D. vance, Stephen Miller, James Blair, Taylor Buttowich, you know, the, the whole inner circle. Yeah. And, and everybody knew that the conversations were on the record. And as you alluded to, they welcomed Vanity Fair's photographer into the White House. They, they knew who he was. They, she, they'd seen his portfolio. This couldn't have been more, you know, on, above board and on the record.

[Joanna Coles]

So as we've been talking, the President has just weighed in and as we said in the introduction, Susie Wiles described him as having an alcoholic's personality, which I want to unpack in a moment. Sure. But he says that she was actually right to tell you that he has an alcoholics personality and that he's got full faith in Susie Wiles to continue in her role. And he also added that he avoids alcohol, which I think we know, saying in the interview that he has a possessive and addictive type personality and that he wasn't offended by her word choice. He then went on to say, I didn't read it, but I don't read Vanity Fair, but she's done a fantastic job.

[Chris Whipple]

How about that? A fact check from Donald Trump. I'll take it.

[Joanna Coles]

A fact check from Donald Trump.

[Chris Whipple]

I'll take it. Yeah. Look, the whole business of Trump having an alcoholic's personality, of course, is fascinating.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I was literally coming onto that to say, what does she mean by that? Unpack that for us.

[Chris Whipple]

So one of the fascinating things about Susie Wiles is that not only that she ran a brilliant campaign in 2024, against all the odds, and got Donald Trump elected. He would not be president without her. She's the first female chief of staff in history, as we all know, but she has this extraordinary background, this journey. She was daughter of the famous sportscaster Pat Summerall, who was an absentee parent and an alcoholic, she helped stage interventions with her mother to get him into treatment. He was sober for 21 years before he died. But she'd be the first to tell you that she has a PhD in difficult men.

[Joanna Coles]

Don't we all? Don't we all, Chris?

[Chris Whipple]

Some women more than others. Baby Susie, I tell you, she's world class when it comes to dealing with difficult men. She was raised by Pat Summerall, so she understands the personality of an alcoholic. And when she applies it to Donald Trump, obviously she doesn't mean that he's a drinker. As far as we know, he's not. But he does have this grandiose personality, untethered sometimes to reality. My words, not hers. But if you want to read her description and pick up Vanity Fair, I mean, she, she describes again how he believes, paraphrasing now, there's nothing, zilch, nada, that he cannot accomplish, that he cannot do. And she's, when what she's saying is that's very much like an alcoholic's personality, even though Donald Trump doesn't drink.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And that they're alwaysand, when they do drink, they become bigger and even bigger, which, as you point out, he doesn't do that. So I want to come into some of the very specific quotes she gives you, but I wanted to ask you something. She's a woman that claims not to like the limelight, to shun the limelight. She very specifically says to you, here's the sofa where Donald Trump's key members it, and here's my chair. I sit off to the side. And yet she found the time to sit with you or talk to you for 11 interviews. What's that about?

[Chris Whipple]

I don't know. I can't read her mind. I cannot definitively tell you why she decided to go on this amazing journey with me. I'm grateful to her that she did. I like to think that maybe behind all the obfuscation and the comments that are being put out there today, that maybe deep down she knows the piece is fair because it is. There's certainly her words, not mine. I was scrupulous about trying to be very fair and even handed. But you're right. Negretta Garbo of White House Chiefs of Staff. She's just not someone that you see on camera or hear from at all. I mean, she's done a few interviews, as you know, but nothing like this before. And I honestly think that she believed, I don't think this was four dimensional chess of some kind. I just think this was Susie Wiles believing that she would get a fair shake from me. And maybe she doesn't think she did today, but I think she believed she would and I think she got it.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, so what I am going to add is just a couple more words from Donald Trump, who this is coming out as we're talking.

[Chris Whipple]

Please, I want to hear it.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, I think from what I hear, the facts were wrong and it was a very misguided interview. Interviewer, purposely misguided. Yeah. And then this is clearly him talking about Susie. Yeah. Deceived. And he didn't have great access. A couple of very short interviews. And Susie generally doesn't do interviews.

[Chris Whipple]

Trump said, my reaction to that is hilarious. I mean, you know, all you have to do is check the White House logs. Well, and the phone calls that we had, I mean, we had again, 11, count them, 11 in depth on the record. Interviews, two visits in person at the White House. I spent the whole day in the Roosevelt Room. That was my office one day when we did the portraits of her inner circle and the trumpet wandered across the hall. He would know we were there. He didn't. But anyway, I find that kind of fascinating.

[Joanna Coles]

Do you think, knowing what you know about him and what he's just said to the New York Post, which I read to you, do you think that he's now going to be annoyed with her for having done this? I mean, we know that Donald Trump doesn't like it when the people around him get a lot of press or more press than he does. But he also doesn't like it when they get no press because that's when he ignores them. Do you think he's jealous of her in this moment?

[Chris Whipple]

I can't, I can't read Donald Trump's mind. I'm not going to try to psychoanalyze him. But, you know, he, he doesn't shrink from a good fight either. I say bring it. Let's have the fight if he wants over the facts here. The facts are, are incontestable and the interviews are what they are. And Susie said what she said. But you know what? It's. I, Peter Baker of the New York Times had a big story about my story this morning. She compared it to the huge flap over David Stockman, who was an economic adviser to Ronald Reagan and started talking to a magazine and gave in depth interviews in which he, in, in which he revealed that the fact that trickle down economics was smoke and mirrors and it caused a huge sensation. I was flattered when Peter compared this piece to that and its impact. Because Susie, while she's not breaking with Trump, in her candor, she has revealed, you know, some unspoken truths about the way this White House functions and. But I don't. I'm not at all sure. Apologies for the long winded answer. I'm not at all sure that Trump's going to dump her. Stockman was taken to the woodshed by the White House chief basap. James Baker almost lost his job. Nancy Reagan wanted him fired, but his was saved.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I was curious that the entire Cabinet have tweeted in her support.

[Chris Whipple]

Well, of course they have, because she is, except for Donald Trump, the most powerful person in the Trump White House. And Donald Trump is unswervingly loyal and protective of her. And of course they're all going to support her. And quite frankly, why not? I mean, she's been good to them. She runs a pretty tight ship in the White House. And that may be hard for some people to believe, but compared to Trump 1.0, they like her. So why not?

[Joanna Coles]

Well, because she reveals some things about them which aren't particularly attractive, perhaps. So let's look at that. Elon Musk microdosing on ketamine when he's tweeting all sorts of things. He's an odd, odd duck. She says J.D. vance, who's someone that, as we know, in 2016 was describing Donald Trump as the new Hitler, she says made the move towards Trump as a political move. Those are not flattering things to hear about from the Chief of Staff to the President of the United States.

[Chris Whipple]

So in fairness to Susie, let me just be clear that she wants to be clear that she has no personal knowledge that Musk was microdosing ketamine when he put out those crazy tweets about Hitler and Stalin.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. But why would Susie Wiles, the Chief of Staff, who's extremely experienced at this stuff, talk to an interviewer and say it then?

[Chris Whipple]

Well, because she, she was unguarded and she was freewheeling. And I give her huge credit for being, for being candid on the subject of Vance. That was fascinating. And this is something really worth reading in Vanity Fair because, you know, this was the case where I asked her about the conversion, 180 degree conversion of JD Vance and Marco Rubio from never Trumpers to powerful athletes. And she said of Rubio, you know, boy, that was really principled. Marco does not violate his principles. And it took him a while to get there. By contrast, she said of Vance, the Vice president, well, he was running for the Senate and his conversion was sort of political quote unquote. So I found that remarkably candid and interesting. And there you go.

[Joanna Coles]

Did you talk to her about whether either of them could take over from Donald Trump, who is, after all, 79?

[Chris Whipple]

Yeah, no, not specifically about that. I mean, I certainly talked about the president's health. She insists that the president is fine, that his health is good. She said, my health is good, his is great. As she put it in the piece. I didn't specifically talk about whether they could take over. But look, I think she's a JD Vance fan, despite that crack she made, that remarkable little bit of insight about his conversion. She's a JD Vance fan and she really likes Rubio. They go way back to Florida in politics, as you know. This is a cabinet that she is all for. But it's remarkable when she starts talking about how the sausage was made from day one when she tried to talk Trump out of doing a blanket pardon for the January 6th insurrectionist, to the moment when she said, let's cut out this revenge and retribution to all the way to the 11 months. It's a wild, fascinating ride.

[Joanna Coles]

So you interviewed 17 chiefs of staff for your book the Gatekeepers. Where does Susie Wiles sit in that list of men? She's the first female chief of staff. Where does she rate in terms of, you know, from 1 to 17?

[Chris Whipple]

Well, she's historic, obviously, as the first female chief of staff. She has an extraordinarily close bond relationship with the president, which is half the battle as White House chief of staff. She's run a pretty smooth ship when you consider Trump 1.0 when it was a killing field where White House chief went to die.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I think he got through four in his first term. Correct.

[Chris Whipple]

Slayer. That's right. It was Mission Impossible. Trump, you know, it was just again, from lines previous to Don Kelly to Mick Mulvaney to Mark Meadows, they just, they would blood all over the floor. Very different. Trump 2.0. You could argue that the difference between Trump 2.0 and 1.0, largely fizzy wild send. Then how Chief Ben is the white dot as cabinet is crazy, as we know, but she deserves credit for that. Having said that, the big overarching question of her tenure as White House chief, which is really kind of the arc of my Vanity Fair journey with her, is to what extent she can do the most important duty of any White House chief, which is to tell the president what he doesn't want to hear. She, you'll see the journey that she takes and what she tries to do that to some extent early on and by the end I readers can judge for themselves, but it's a journey.

[Joanna Coles]

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[Joanna Coles]

And I'm back with Chris Whipple, who's written a riveting piece about Susie Wiles in Vanity Fair. She said that Donald Trump has an alcoholics personality. What did she say about Pete Hegseth?

[Chris Whipple]

She's a Pete Hegseth fan. When I asked her about it, she thinks the Cabinet is a brilliant cabinet. She you know, some outside observers might say this is the least qualified cabinet in modern history. But from Susie's point of view, they are quote unquote disruptors. And that's what she thinks that the system needs. She thinks that Hegseth, ask her about the deep state and she'll say it's not in the State Department. It's the military industrial complex. She thinks Hegseth is the guy to stand up to them. She calls Bobby Kennedy another world class disruptor. My Bobby, Quirky Bobby. So she's all in with this Cabinet.

[Joanna Coles]

And she says she's not an enabler and she says she's not a bitch. What does that mean?

[Chris Whipple]

Well, it was fascinating because as you, as you pointed out, I know a few White House chiefs of staff, including Leon Panetta, who was arguably, along with James A. Baker iii, the gold standard of White House chief.

[Joanna Coles]

Leon Panetta was Clinton, Bill Clinton's chief of staff, and James Baker was Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan's. I was going to say George, George H. Bush. Ronald Reagan's.

[Chris Whipple]

Yes, I spoke, but I, so I spoke to Panetta in the course of writing this piece and asked him what he thought of Susie Wiles. And he said from where he sat out in California, he's never met her, just observing. He couldn't decide whether she's an enabler or a disciplinarian who's really trying to get Trump to do the right thing. I repeated this to Susie Leon's comment and really got a rise out of her. I think the trigger was the word enabler. She did not like that word. And so as you quoted her a minute ago, she said I'm not an enabler and I'm not a bitch. That's about as salty as Susie Wiles gets.

[Joanna Coles]

But I didn't re, I didn't really understand what she meant by that. What do you think she meant by that?

[Chris Whipple]

Well, listen, I can't read her mind, but. But look, there's a one way.

[Joanna Coles]

You keep saying that, but you interviewed her 11 times. You must have an idea.

[Chris Whipple]

No, I said I couldn't read Trump's mind. I don't think I said that before now. But I mean, look, I think readers can judge for themselves what she means by that. But one possible interpretation is that she finds it more difficult to speak hard truths as a woman, that she might feel that she'd be considered a bitch if she did.

[Joanna Coles]

Interesting.

[Chris Whipple]

So that's one possible interpretation. But what I can tell you is that it was revealing to me that I got such a rise out of her when I quoted Leon Panetta, because I think the notion that a revered White House chief like him might think she's an enabler really did not sit well.

[Joanna Coles]

That's a very interesting interpretation. That as a woman, she might find it harder to speak truth to power.

[Chris Whipple]

Yeah. What do you think?

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I was going to put something to you. Michael Wolff, who, as you know, also had access to Trump 1 and sat in the White House for seven months before he wrote the Fire and Fury and went on to write four books about Donald Trump, says that what he understands from people in the White House is that Susie Wiles is not a chief of staff as we know it, as you would think of it traditionally with the 17 people you've interviewed, but that she's really an administrator in chief, and that the way to survive there is never to tell Trump that he's wrong or that, or never to try and divert him because he's wise to that from Trump 1.

[Chris Whipple]

Well, look, Michael's got a point and obviously knows a lot about Trump and the Trump White House. And it's true that, you know, her strong suit has been her ability to run the White House, which none of her predecessors could do. On Trump 1.0, you say run the.

[Joanna Coles]

White House, but it seems like the Cabinet or the president lurches from moment to moment. A lot of the policies don't seem to be thought out. They don't seem to be discussed with people. I mean, I understand this idea of disrupting, but it felt like they didn't understand what they were disrupting.

[Chris Whipple]

I'm making a distinction between the White House and the administration. I'm talking about the executive branch and the White House, which is where the real power resides. But look, there's plenty of policy chaos. There's no question about that. But I think the real, if you're really asking me where she stands in the pantheon of White House Chiefs of Staff? We don't know yet. But the most important duty, the ultimate test of a White House chief of staff is being able to walk into the Oval Office, close the door and tell the President what he doesn't want to hear. And what you can see if you read the Vanity Fair piece is this journey that she takes from day 56 when she says, when I said to her, do you ever go in and tell him, let's cut out this revenge and retribution stuff and govern? She said, I did. I had that conversation. And we had a loose agreement, quote, unquote, that it would end after 90 days. Well, so where are we now?

[Joanna Coles]

Right. It didn't end.

[Chris Whipple]

Yeah. So you can judge. You can follow her journey where she's pushing back or trying to, or trying to tap the brakes early on to where she is today and draw your own conclusions. But the real test is, has she told him hard truths? Has she been able to tell him, no, you shouldn't go down this road, and here's why, and will he listen? And, boy, it's just not clear that she's able to do that.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. So you don't think it's clear she's able to do that? That's certainly the implication from the piece.

[Chris Whipple]

Well, and I want readers to judge, but as I say, what I find fascinating is this journey she takes over the course of a year. And if this were a piece about, you know, there's a simplistic sort of school of thought that Trump is just surrounded by a bunch of enablers, you know, an amen chorus, and it's not, and in Susie's case, I think it's a little bit, it's more interesting and nuanced and fascinating.

[Joanna Coles]

She says in the piece that no one else could do this job, that she is the only person that could do this job. She sat with you for 11 interviews, or she talked to you for 11 interviews. I think sometimes you were on the phone, she was folding her laundry, she was just coming back from church, according to Trump.

[Chris Whipple]

Apparently I only spoke to her once or twice, but. Sorry, go ahead.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, according to the president, it was a couple of interviews. Not very much access. In fact, as you said, you had unprecedented access. Why does she want this attention, do you think? Why did she do this?

[Chris Whipple]

I, again, without trying to psychoanalyze or pretend that I know the answer, my best guess is that she really felt that she would get a fair hearing. She, she believes that Trump was vilified in his first term and unfairly portrayed by a bunch of jackals in the media. And I think she thought maybe because I'd done a very even handed book about White House chiefs, in part, I think she honestly felt that she could get a fair hearing. She may or may not think so today, but I think going in that's what she thought.

[Joanna Coles]

How many of the people that you've spoken to or that appear in the photos in Vanity Fair And I urge everybody to look at the photos in particular because they're very Christopher Anderson's photos which accompany your very thoughtful piece. I are completely riveting and very exposing. How many people of those have, of those people have spoken to you privately today? How many of you heard from privately, Susie?

[Chris Whipple]

One. One person.

[Joanna Coles]

And what did she say?

[Chris Whipple]

You know, we exchanged text and I don't want to get into what she said because that's a private communication. But, but you've seen what she's saying publicly and you've seen what they're tweeting. And so I think that speaks for itself.

[Joanna Coles]

But I'm asking you a different question. Does that reflect what she said to you in her private texts to you?

[Chris Whipple]

Well, again, I don't want to characterize what we talked about, but I think that, you know, we've all seen, you've seen and you've read some of the public reaction from the White House to the peace. And my answer to that is sure sounds like the old days, non denial denials. Every not a single fact of the peace has been and for good reason. There's nothing to confess.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, you know, Chris, what it reminds me of as a British person is how the Royal family and in particular Princess Diana used to deal with the media, which was thatand we know this from Andrew Morton's book where she sat down with a friend and she gave tape after tape after tape of stories which Andrew Morton wrote up in his bestselling book, who of course title is now Escaping Me, went on to be a huge bestseller and she issued all sorts of denials. The royal family said they were going to to sue over it. She would regularly talk to a specific journalist from the Daily Mail. He would then splash what she told him on the front page and then she would issue a denial saying this is outrageous. I'm being hounded by the tabloid press when in fact she was talking to them all along. So what I'm trying to figure out is, is Susie Wiles trying to have it both ways, like the British Royal family where they say one thing and Then deny it. So they're trying to get the public on board with them while also getting their side of the story out. And of course here this is about an audience of one. For Susie Wiles, it's about Donald Trump. And Donald Trump is saying, oh, this man, you, Chris Whipple had limited access, maybe two interviews.

[Chris Whipple]

My instinct about this, having covered a few White House, it's is that with this White House and with Susie, it's never four dimensional chess ever. I think Michael Wolff would agree with probably.

[Joanna Coles]

I think he would.

[Chris Whipple]

I think it's never, it's never even three dimensional chess. It's never, it's not even chess.

[Joanna Coles]

Is it checkers? Is it checkers?

[Chris Whipple]

It might be checkers, but I just don't think they're that clever about it or calculating. And I honestly think, you know, there, I've, I've certainly heard all kinds of people speculating that Susie was saying what she said to me to somehow position herself for the post Trump, you know, career nonsense is my gut, my gut feeling is she just started talking and wanted to talk, thought she had a. Not a sympathetic but a fair and just kept talking. And here we are.

[Joanna Coles]

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[Joanna Coles]

And I'm back with the Vanity Fair contributor Chris Whipple, who has conducted 11 interviews with Susie Wiles. So JD Vance tweeted out, if any of us have learned a lesson from the Vanity Fair article, I hope the lesson is we should be giving fewer interviews to mainstream media outlets. Is this the end of the Cabinet talking to mainstream media?

[Chris Whipple]

Well, you know, it hasn't struck me that they've been doing much to this point. You know, this, this piece wouldn't be rocking the political world the way it has in the last few hours if they'd been talking to the mainstream media a lot. They're not. So I don't see that as a sea change in the Trump White House approach to the media. Sounds like, alas, no lesson has been learned in this case.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, so, Chris, I have a final question for you and for anybody who's interested. I suddenly remembered the title of Diana's book, It's a True Story. And of course, she said it wasn't a true story, but she was the actual source of it.

[Chris Whipple]

Wait a minute. Whose book are we promoting here anyway, Anyway, It's Vanity Fair's Pee. They were. I'm teasing. I'm kidding.

[Joanna Coles]

I know you're teasing. Here's my final question for you. And I should have checked. I should have checked on this, but what is the likelihood of Susie Wiles being in her job in three months time?

[Chris Whipple]

90%.

[Joanna Coles]

So there's a 10% chance this piece gets her fired?

[Chris Whipple]

Well, I, again, I'm, I'm making up the percentages, but I just think that David Stockman survived his, his trial by fire when he spoke out of school to the Atlantic over months and months during the Reagan White House. Susie Wiles is way closer to Donald Trump than Stockman was to Reagan. I think there's a bond there. And frankly, Susie's right, in a sense that there is no obvious person to do this job other than her. She has a kind of bond with Trump that he never had with any of her predecessors. And I can't think of anybody else that he would want in that job.

[Joanna Coles]

Do you know what that reminds me of? Margaret Thatcher saying that in politics, no one is unassailable.

[Chris Whipple]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and certainly she's look Nobody is indispensable. So I'm not saying that she might not lose her job. It could, it could happen. But boy, it doesn't sound like it. From the early comments by Donald Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

Did you like her?

[Chris Whipple]

She's really a likable person and she's, and that what was, that's what was so fascinating about these conversations is that she seemed willing in a way that, look, I've covered a few White Houses. I wrote a book, two books. I mean, one book about the Biden White House, another book about the Biden 2024 campaign. Senior White House officials hardly ever speak to you on the record. They're all on background, steep background quote, approval. Susie, to her credit, was willing to just let it rip and boy, did she.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, Chris, it's a fascinating piece for those who want to read it. It's two parter in Vanity Fair. Who knew magazines even ran two parters anymore? But congratulations on a truly riveting reading and we will watch Susie Wiles with great care. Michael Wolff has a wonderful description of Donald Trump when he first sees her. And as you mentioned, she was working for Ron DeSantis at the time and he said, who's the refrigerator? That's how he referred to her. And yet you say now they have a bond.

[Chris Whipple]

When they met, when they first sat down and had a talk about working together, Donald Trump was sort of in awe. He was sitting there with the daughter of the great Pat Simone. He believes in two things. He believes in winning and he believes in great genius. G E N E S. And she had it.

[Joanna Coles]

Fascinating. Chris, thank you very much indeed.

[Chris Whipple]

My pleasure, Joanna. Thanks for having me.

[Joanna Coles]

So there you have it. A chief of staff who decided that despite the chaos going on in America and indeed the ripple effects around the world, that she had time and she could make time for not one, not two, not five, not 10, but 11 interviews with 60 Minutes former producer and ABC News former producer Chris Whipple. So what was she thinking? She said she alone could do the job. And Donald Trump has come out in support saying he loves her, he supports her, and that she probably had gave very limited access to the reporter. Maybe one, maybe one or two interviews. How do we think this is going to end? My prediction, not well. Not well. If you have been, thank you for joining us. Find Chris Whipple's piece is completely riveting, as are, I should say, Christopher Andersen's photos. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast and leave us a comment on YouTube. We love to know what you think and I try and respond to as many as I possibly can. Don't forget to check out Inside Trump's Head, where Michael Wolff and I go deep today in Donald Trump's response to the terrible, terrible killing of Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle Singer. Until. Well, until tomorrow. Until Thursday So many podcasts. All the time it's raining podcasts. So big. Thank you to Sandra Clark, Me thinks Travels with Carl, Andrew Beaver, Capinator, Harry Clark, Dawn McCarthy, Daniel Dog Lover, M. Griner, Fulvia Orlando Herbie, Andrew Mellor or Melody as Michael always says. Lars Conde, Bonz O, Val Love, Francisco, Andrea Hodel, Bocock, D.C. sharon Shipley, Connie Rutherford, Karen White and Heidi Reilly. Thank you to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Erson and Jessie Millwood.

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[Chris Whipple]

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