Why Trump Can't Escape Epstein Forever: Wolff

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why Trump Can't Escape Epstein Forever: Wolff"

The Daily Beast Podcast
Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Michael Wolff
Date: January 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this intense and wide-ranging episode, Joanna Coles and Michael Wolff dissect the ever-changing and increasingly volatile American political landscape during Trump’s second administration. They focus on the administration’s diversionary tactics, notably the invasion of Venezuela, the reemergence of unaddressed controversies like Jeffrey Epstein, the alarming centrality of figures such as Stephen Miller and RFK Jr., and the lack of public resistance to rising authoritarianism. Their conversation swings between dark humor, insider anecdotes, and deep unease at the drift of U.S. institutions and political discourse.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Escalation of Authoritarianism and the Veneer of Normalcy

• Opening Anxiety ([02:26–03:08]): Joanna and Michael agree: what was once inconceivable now feels commonplace—militarized ICE on U.S. streets, open talk of invading other countries, and escalating paramilitary actions at home.
  • "Are we slipping into an autocracy? Is this all slipping away from us?" — Joanna Coles (02:26)
  • "There is not the proper response to this... Even more off the rails than we thought it was going." — Michael Wolff (02:44)
• They lament the lack of mobilized public response compared to the 1960s, despite government actions that "begin to rival" that era ([05:04–05:38]).

2. The Disturbing Centrality of Stephen Miller

• Miller’s Rise ([06:39–09:42]): Coles reads from Wolff's substack, calling Stephen Miller uniquely threatening—described as “so ominous and so dark... he literally looks like Voldemort from the Harry Potter movies” ([06:39]).
• Wolff recounts Bannon introducing Miller in 2017 as "now this really is a fascist," underlining how someone previously marginalized now steers Trump’s core agenda.
  • "There is Stephen Miller, the most peculiar person in the first Trump White House, now the central person, second most important..." — Michael Wolff (09:09)
• Miller’s ideology is characterized as an "obsession," notably with purity, force, and power, and a prewar European mindset ([09:54–11:04]).
  • "We live in a world... governed by strength, governed by force, governed by power." — (quoting Miller, 10:57)

3. Venezuela & Greenland: Foreign Adventures as Distraction

• Trump’s Foreign "Victories" ([12:01–13:52]; [18:29–20:04]; [46:32–49:54]): The “takeover” of Venezuela and talk of Greenland are painted as classic Trumpian distractions, designed to shift focus from scandals like Epstein.
  • "He has done what he always manages to do, which is to change the subject through a fundamental reordering of the narrative..." — Michael Wolff (43:29)
  • The invasions target smaller, easier "prey," echoing early WWII strategies, but lack meaningful planning.
• Joanna speculates: “China and Russia must just be sitting, rocking back and forth, laughing at this,” seeing America dissolve itself ([04:27]).

4. The Perpetual Specter of Epstein

• Unreleased Files, Delayed Reckoning ([01:32–01:32]; [43:14–46:18]):
  • Wolff and Coles stress that the Epstein scandal "never goes away" and that purposeful distraction (like the Venezuela incursion) helps Trump escape consequences.
  • Only a "tiny fraction" of the files have been released; survivors are furious, and even Republican critics are demanding action.
    • "As far as I can understand, they've only released 1% of them. And... the survivors are absolutely furious..." — Joanna Coles (45:25)

5. Contempt for the Media and Manufacturing Reality

• Trump and the Press ([15:49–19:41]): Joanna draws a vivid image of NYT reporters interviewing Trump, likening it to guards surrounding a violent criminal. Wolff sees them as dogs awaiting scraps.
  • "They all look like dogs waiting for a bone. Well, he's the master. And there they sit at his feet." — Michael Wolff (16:25)
• They bemoan the mainstream media's deadpan normalization of outrageous events ("Maybe they think they're rendering this... in some kind of deadpan language," 18:29).
• The duo reflect on the collapse of presidential credibility—a “credibility gap” surpassing even Vietnam-era lies, yet paradoxically strengthening Trump ([14:41–15:36]).

6. Kennedys, RFK Jr., and the Rise of the Eccentric Outsiders

• RFK Jr. as Maverick Challenger ([23:29–24:54] and throughout): The hosts debate RFK Jr.’s “craziness,” contrasting his unpredictable beliefs, outsider status, and confounding popular appeal (“just because he’s a Kennedy”).
• Normies Ousted ([25:44–26:36]): Trump’s inner circle is now "the bottom of the barrel," as all the “normies were washed out, leaving only the strange people, the peculiar people, the toadies, the lackeys..."

7. Generational Turnover in Politics

• Steny Hoyer’s Retirement, Seth Moulton, and Democratic Future ([26:36–34:09]):
  • The old guard’s entrenchment is dissected—Hoyer stepping down at 86 exemplifies overdue churn.
  • Discussing Moulton’s cross-party appeal, ex-military background, and the Democratic Party’s struggle to represent new constituencies.

8. Political Indoctrination in Schools

• Turning Point USA and Club America ([40:37–43:14]):
  • Coles and Wolff critique the right’s push to organize high school students under the Club America banner; both agree U.S. politics should stay out of high schools.
  • "Here's something that seems patently something we don't want... politicize high school." — Michael Wolff (41:09)

9. Trivialization and Trumpification of U.S. Institutions

• Smithsonian and Beyond ([53:32–54:51]):
  • The Trump era’s penchant for putting his stamp on major cultural institutions is decried.
  • "Why stop with one institution when they can all be Trump’s such and such?" — Michael Wolff (54:19)

10. Lingering Sense of Doom and Absence of Resistance

• How Bad Is It? ([55:48–58:11]):
  • Coles asks for a 1–10 rating of American prospects; Wolff unequivocally answers "10." The hosts agree: "We have reached an outside limit of anything that the nation has ever experienced and it continues to get worse."
  • "I would have said we were at number 10 before Venezuela. Now we're in Venezuela—or not in Venezuela, or something." — Wolff (57:12)
• They marvel at the absence of genuine mobilization: "What is the moment in which too much is too much? What is the moment in which... there is some response to this?" — Michael Wolff (54:51)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You can’t spend five minutes with Miller and not understand there is something wrong with him. Some point on the spectrum where he dwells alone… He looks like Voldemort from the Harry Potter movies.” — Joanna Coles (reading Wolff, 06:39)
• "Even Trump called him 'Crazy Stephen'... But there Stephen Miller is, the most peculiar person... now the central person, second most important person in the Trump White House." — Michael Wolff (09:09)
• "It's not only about not assuming responsibility…it's direct, outright lies... in this mortal situation... we have this paramilitary internal police force who can do no wrong." — Michael Wolff (13:52)
• "We are at the outside limit of anything the nation has ever experienced, and it continues to get worse." — Michael Wolff (57:12)

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Important Timestamps

• [02:26] – Opening anxiety: “Autocracy,” militarization, missed public response.
• [06:39] – Coles reads Wolff on Stephen Miller’s psychology and power.
• [09:42] – Miller’s anti-immigrant obsession and ideological roots.
• [13:52] – Trump’s mischaracterization of Minneapolis ICE shooting.
• [16:25] – Trump and NYT: metaphor of dogs and the master.
• [18:29] – Media’s normalization of abnormality.
• [23:29] – RFK Jr.’s popularity: Kennedy legacy vs. “craziness.”
• [25:44] – Trump’s team: “bottom of the barrel.”
• [26:36] – Steny Hoyer’s retirement and generational stagnation.
• [41:09] – Club America: right-wing high school activism.
• [43:29] – Venezuela as narrative distraction from Epstein, deeper crises.
• [45:25] – Epstein file release: survivors’ anger, Republican calls for action.
• [54:19] – Trumpification of U.S. institutions.
• [55:48] – Wolff: “10 out of 10” on how bad it is.

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Tone and Style

Direct, unsparing, and darkly witty—Coles and Wolff alternate between jaded humor and palpable alarm. They’re self-aware, referencing their own privilege and professional struggles, while maintaining a sharp, conversational style immersed in both pop culture and history.

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For New Listeners

This episode offers a brisk, incisive, and often unsettling look at the state of U.S. democracy, the normalization of authoritarian tactics, and the uncanny resilience of unresolved scandals like Epstein’s. Michael Wolff’s anecdotes and Joanna Coles’s media savvy ground the commentary in both personal experience and institutional critique. If you want an unvarnished perspective—one that’s skeptical of both the Trump machinery and media complacency—this conversation delivers.

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Next Episode Preview:
Coles and Wolff promise updates on Melania and continued tracking of developments in both U.S. domestic and foreign policy, as well as recurring controversies that refuse to die.

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For the full conversation, including quips and side anecdotes, check out the episode on The Daily Beast’s podcast feed or YouTube channel.

Transcript

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Thoughts do they ever actually clean the ball pit at these kids play gyms? Or is my kid just swimming in a vat of bacteria catching whatever cootie of the day is breeding in there? A cootie that'll probably take down our whole family.

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[Michael Wolff]

Nothing is going on besides Venezuela at this point. This is a monster development in the Trump political life. But Epstein, it never goes away. It always comes back. I mean, I think the question to ask right now is what's the status of the what were the remaining the 5 million other documents that have not been released? Michael Joanna Coles could it be?

[Joanna Coles]

Oh God, should we remind people who we are? I'm very conscious that lots of new people join us every week and we never really tell them what we're doing or who we are. I'm Joanna Coles from the Daily Beast.

[Michael Wolff]

We're two old friends who now find ourselves like perhaps all old friends as a podcasting team, possibly.

[Joanna Coles]

And again this morning I woke up having had a calmer period, perhaps because of the holidays and a slight break. Waking up thinking, oh God, are we slipping into an autocracy? Is this all slipping away from us? Is this the moment when we should all be in the streets and.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, no. And I curiously, I woke up thinking exactly the same thing. I woke up thinking. Thinking, wait a minute. There. There is not the proper response to this. I mean, this is going off the rails, off the rails on a daily basis. Even more off the rails than we thought it was going.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

We've now invaded another country. We're talking about invading other countries. We've had this remarkable statement from Stephen Miller, arguably the second most important person in the White House, which is, in any language, thinly veiled fascism. And what are we doing besides doing a podcast? Where are. Where are the people in the street?

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and also, we had the terrible ice.

[Michael Wolff]

They're actually sharp on the street, but they're getting shot. Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

Right, right. So. So we had that. And we want to come on and talk about that and Noem's weird obfuscation and blaming the victim as being a domestic terrorist, when, in fact, she seemed to be a very normal, much loved mom who, you know, says on her social media she loves poetry and music.

[Michael Wolff]

But you're going. We are at that point. And this could have been. This, I'm sure, has been predicted, but it certainly is predictable that this paramilitary police force flooding American cities would harm somebody. I mean, physically harm somebody. Shoot someone, rather. In cold blood, it seems.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and you see the pictures of it, and the videos are going absolutely everywhere. And all I could think of was China and Russia must just be sitting, rocking back and forth, laughing at this, because this is what they want for America. This sort of slowed. Well, it's not even that slow. What feels like a disintegration of American culture. And of course, it's not as bad as the 1960s. One has to remember that. But nevertheless, it does feel unstable.

[Michael Wolff]

But I'm considering your last statement. It's not as bad as the. As the. As the 1960s.

[Joanna Coles]

I mean, you might remember the 60s better than me.

[Michael Wolff]

Whatever. What was going on actually in the 1960s was a response to a government out of control, but it was a response. I mean, a clear response. And in fact, it brought the end of that. Of that government. Nothing like that is happening now. Where is the response? Certainly, what this government is doing begins to rival what the government in the 1960s was doing. And where is everybody? Hello?

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and Also in the 60s, the movement was towards progress. What's so scary here is this. This sense of a movement towards something which is much, much darker. And this may be my conspiracy theorist coming out, but I believe is driven largely by bad actors abroad in China and Russia. But you've written a very good substack this morning, which I just want to alert people to. I don't know if you've published it yet, but you sent it ahead of time to me about Stephen Miller, who, as you say, is rapidly becoming the second most important person in the White. And there is a little bit that I wanted to read from it. Again, I'm reading your own words, Stu. Is there anything a writer likes more? I can't believe we're starting off the New Year with me being so toading.

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Maybe I'm picking something up.

[Michael Wolff]

I'll clarify that. There is nothing. The only thing, actually, that a writer likes more is the writer reading his own words.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, well, I'm going to read your own words here, but this is from. From your substack, which I think goes up later today. You can't spend five minutes with Miller, Stephen Miller, and not understand there is something wrong with him. Some point on the spectrum where he dwells alone. Indeed, you can't watch him in a television interview. He looks like no one else who is allowed before a camera without seeing the psychopathology. He's really out there, and he's not with anyone else. And it's so ominous and so dark, and he is so peculiar, and he has this kind of featureless face. He literally looks like Voldemort from the Harry Potter movies, who, again, has no features. When you see his face, it's all sunken into himself. It's very, very strange, you know, and we've seen.

[Michael Wolff]

And actually, Stephen Miller kind of traces the whole Trump continuum here. He came into the Trump White House in 2017 as actually kind of Steve Bannon's joke. And Steve Bannon was. Was. Was, you know, and I. I spoke at length to Bannon during this time, and even about Stephen Miller, who he treated as a joke, but it was his kind of joke on the normies in the White House. We really are like this, he would say, although Bannon never saw himself really like this. And I remember once he took me into to see Miller, and Bannon said Bannon was certainly aware of everyone calling him a fascist. And then he said about Miller, now this really is a fascist. And, you know, and I spent a little time with Miller and I thought, oh, my God, Jesus, this is one weird guy. You know, he didn't. Can't meet you, can't look you in the eyes. And then he would just recite these things, and he just. You just wanted to get out of there. And then I came out and banned and said, you see, and then he says, and then he says, kind of he said, goebbels.

[Joanna Coles]

Right? I mean, just very frightening.

[Michael Wolff]

But that was at that moment when, as I say, he was a joke. Everyone kind of was aware. Even Trump called him crazy. Stephen. But then over the course of this, of this time now, nine years, he has risen. Everybody else has fallen by the wayside. And there is Stephen Miller, the most peculiar person in the first Trump White House, now the central person, second most important person in the Trump White House. There, there he is, this cuckoo bird, but a cuckoo bird who is, who is determined, cruel, obsessional, and dangerous.

[Joanna Coles]

What is his driving ideology? Why is he so angry? He grew up in a perfectly nice home in Santa Monica in California. I mean, what is his, what the hell is his problem?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, who knows? You know, you become obsessional for all kinds of kinds of reasons. I mean, his obsession is brown people. It's a country that he envisions in one way that has lost its way. And he demands a new purity and force and power. I mean, the statement that he released was that yesterday or the day before about, I think this was. He was referencing Greenland.

[Joanna Coles]

So you refer to this in your substack, and I'm going to read that paragraph. Now, of course, the junior aide has become the singular survivor of Trump's rise, fall and comeback, the fundamental architect of the second Trump administration and its clearest voice, as off the beam as ever. Now I'm quoting him. We live in a world in which you can talk all you want about international niceties and everything else, but we.

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Live in a world, in the world.

[Joanna Coles]

That is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, so that' syou can just see that that was the pre World War II view and necessarily the German view.

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[Michael Wolff]

Foreign policy, of international life, of the relationship of one powerful country to other weaker countries. And that was the view that since the, the end of the Second World War has been wholly revised by America leading the way. But obviously, other European countries and the success, the historical success of all of these years of relative, and I emphasize relative peace, certainly the absence of world war was the central accomplishment of undoing precisely that view. Well, it's back again.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, it's back again. And yet the countries we're taking on Greenland, Venezuela, are not the other superpowers. I mean, it seems like we're aiming at very small fry here. I mean, Greenland, we already have access to Greenland, remember?

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, you know, I hesitate to make these parallels too direct, but when Germany took on other countries, they too were the weaker countries. It then overstepped and took on other, you know, it screwed itself up by taking on stronger countries. But, but, but Poland, the, the Netherlands and, and one country after another were easy prey.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, what's going on in Minneapolis is very concerning. The ICE agent who shot three times the poor woman in her minivan who was trying to get out of what looked like a very complicated situation, not a professional agitator. And of course, Donald Trump has issued on Truth Social his version of events, which I was going to read and get your opinion of. So this is from our president. I've just viewed the clip of the event. There were many clips of the event because so many people were filming it, which took place in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It is a horrible thing to watch. The woman screaming was obviously a professional agitator. And the woman driving the car was very disorderly, obstructing and resisting. Who then violently, willfully and viciously ran over the ICE officer who seems to have shot her in self defense. Based on the attached clip, it is hard to believe he is alive but is now recovering in the hospital. I mean, what's so fascinating is that's not what the clip shows. That's not what any of the clips show.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, we, we are at that, at that, at that point, it's not only about not assuming responsibility. It's not only about a question of what happened is direct, outright lies, which is not. We have been at that point for some time. But this is now in this, in this mortal situation. I mean, we have this, this paramilitary internal police force who can do no wrong.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and also it's that thing where the president tells you something which you can see yourself isn't true. Which reminds me of when he was saying, oh, the crowds were so huge for his first inauguration. When we could see the pictures of the crowds and they weren't huge. There were vast, vast areas where there was no one.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you know, that's an, this is an interesting thing. And if we go back to the 1960s, there was something called the credibility gap in which you would. The government was undermined because it kept putting out reports on the, on the kills in Vietnam, on that we were winning the war when we were losing the war. And that undermined the government. Now that, compare that to now into the Trump years when credibility, his credibility has never been a president's credibility has never been weaker and the lies more transparent. And yet it has not undermined him Quite the opposite. It has strengthened him by the fact that he can so shamelessly, so stubbornly.

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[Michael Wolff]

Boldly insists that his version of reality is true. It's confounding.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, that leads me to an interesting picture in the New York Times today. They're sitting down there, political reporters sit down to interview him. And I don't know if we can show the picture. I think we can, but it's Donald Trump behind his desk, and then there are five reporters in a semicircle around him. And it reminded me of one of those pictures you see when there is a violent criminal in a courtroom and they're being escorted by five or six guards who look as if they. Only the might of the five or six of them will be able to contain this superhuman, violent criminal.

[Michael Wolff]

I saw it as. I would look for a reach for a different metaphor there. They all look like. Like dogs waiting for a bone. Well, he's the master. And there they sit at his feet. I found it kind of a distressing picture.

[Joanna Coles]

I thought it was. Well, first of all, I'm envious that they've got five reporters to send in, because we certainly wouldn't have five reporters to send in from the Daily Beast. I thought for him, it must be almost the apex of his career that he's sitting behind the desk and who's listening to him? Five reporters from the New York Times, which we know he's obsessed by. Stephen Cheung, his.

[Michael Wolff]

And why would you need five reporters actually, since someone is running a tape recorder here?

[Joanna Coles]

Right, right. I've absolutely no idea, but it sort of looked like he must be just, you know, at some point he's going to say, and they sent five reporters, Five reporters, not one. Five reporters to talk to me, because he's so important. And to me, it looked like they had five of them because they knew they were going to be lied to, and so they wanted other people to check with. But it, but it was a bizarre.

[Michael Wolff]

It's. This is not a. Anyway, it's. It's.

[Joanna Coles]

They have a tape recorder. Well, they have five tape recorders.

[Michael Wolff]

The thing that then confused. Well, didn't confuse me. I might have expected this, but. But it's another bit of this whole paradigm between Trump and the media. Is that. Is that. So the interview, or at least the portions of the interview that they covered today were about Venezuela and them questioning Trump about the reasons for this, for this invasion, and most of all, what we are going to do with this country now that we theoretically have taken over. But we haven't exactly Taken over. But they keep announcing we have taken over.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, he's announced he's running it. Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Someone asked who's in charge and he.

[Joanna Coles]

Said, I'm in charge. I'm in charge.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. But there's no real, real the underpinnings of how he is going to be in charge, what he intends to accomplish, being in charge. All that was missing from this, all of that, he didn't know, he couldn't say, he wasn't going to say yet he would say sometimes, maybe. And this was all treated as in the course of business. This is, this was the Trump. This is whatthis is the Trump position, the Trump White House position that they've taken over a country, but they're not going to tell anyone what to do about it. And the New York Times has rendered thisi mean, maybe they think that they're rendering this in some kind of deadpan language and, and readers will draw their own conclusions, which they obviously, obviously they will. But it also creates that other effect. The other effect. Oh, that this is normal. We are not saying. And partly because the New York Times doesn't have the language to say, hey, this is batshit.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, this is absurd. It's ridiculous. It makes no sense. You made it up as you went along. You stood up there on the platform and when someone said, who's in charge? You said, we're going to run it. And that was clearly the first Marco Rubio had ever heard of it. And then you have Stephen Miller, like a ghoul, standing behind Marco Rubio. How does Stephen Miller get on with Pete Hegseth and Marco Rubio?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I don't think Stephen Miller gets along with anyone because he is way out on the spectrum. So the idea he can't really talk to anyone else. I mean, he's, you know, he has deep social problems. You can't sit down and have a beer with Stephen Miller, even on the.

[Joanna Coles]

New Mar a Lago White House patio.

[Michael Wolff]

Even on.

[Joanna Coles]

Because it's set up for that.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, there's something wrong with him. He is a broken person.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, he's having a fourth baby with his wife, Katie Miller, who does a podcast where she similar. I mean, you referred to him as Goebbels or you said that, that Steve Bannon referred to him as Goebbels. And Katie Miller is putting out sort of state sponsored propaganda by interviewing all the top Republicans, all Trump's henchmen.

[Michael Wolff]

What was Goebbels wife's name?

[Joanna Coles]

Was it Marla Goebbels? Magda.

[Michael Wolff]

Magda Goebbels, which sounds a lot like Maga.

[Joanna Coles]

Indeed it does. So we've got our version of Magda Katie interviewing Hegseth and his wife. Mike Johnson and his wife. J.D.

[Michael Wolff]

Vance, I guess, should not reference what happened to those children.

[Joanna Coles]

No, we shouldn't reference it. But if you haven't watched the Downfall, which is about the last week of Adolf Hitler and his group, you really should. It's an amazingly good movie. Did you watch the Downfall?

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, amazing. Totally.

[Joanna Coles]

The other, the other film that's worth watching in the. While we're on it is the Life of Others, about East Germany and an East German spy. Did you ever see that? Two very good movies about what's going on right now. The Downfall is a perfect movie to watch right now. So much to discuss. What did you have for breakfast this morning, Michael? Was it top of the food pyramid?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, it used to be on the top of the food pyramid. You know, the food pyramid has been turned upside down now. So I guess in an. In an RFK world, you wake up and have. You have steak and eggs and then.

[Joanna Coles]

You smother yourself with beef tallow.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, and testosterone. I myself had. Had oatmeal or porridge, as you say.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, porridge. I don't think that's very good for you, though. Does it fuel you through comfortably through lunch?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Well, it used to be that's what you were supposed to have. That was high fiber, and fiber is what kept you full.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, now they're saying it's just so much. You need much more protein. So good news. We can have steak and eggs for breakfast.

[Michael Wolff]

I once asked Murdoch what he had for breakfast, and he said that he had every morning, you know, just a bowl of porridge. And then he said, a horse needs its chaff.

[Joanna Coles]

What a great line. A horse needs its chaff. Well, not according to rfk, it doesn't. So he's, you know, obfuscating the vaccine stuff or throwing the vaccine rollbacks to the MAGA base and then playing to the rest of us by saying that we can smother ourselves in beef tallow. And.

[Michael Wolff]

But let's, let's move this. So we have Stephen, Stephen Miller, who I think, I would certainly argue, and I think you can easily make the argument is. Is a crazy person, a person who. Whose presence in public life is inexplicable. And then you have RFK Jr equally crazy. His presence in public life. And, you know, he's 72 years old, and for most of his life as a Kennedy, he was kind of precluded from public life because everybody knew RFK Jr. He's the crazy one. And here he is in a pivotal role in this government. Pivotal. And as we have said before, and I think we should keep repeating these same someone not notice who is running for president in 2028.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, Stephen Miller won't be running for president. Right. Because he has absolutely no popular appeal whatsoever. But RFK Jr does have some kind of popular appeal. He's a Kennedy. He's got.

[Michael Wolff]

He. He. I mean, he does. I mean, it's hard to figure out what the popular appeal is other than the fact that he is named Kennedy. I mean, that's exclusively. And yeah. Do you see any other point of appeal here?

[Joanna Coles]

No, but I'm struck by the fact that women find him attractive, actually. I mean, he's so peculiar. His face is like a sort of racism.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, they find him attractive because he's a Kennedy.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, I guess.

[Michael Wolff]

I think if you put him in, you know, I mean, the old thing, you know, you know, when. When, you know, Teddy Kennedy, remember, you know, with his. And everybody said, I mean, there was a famous line. If his name were. His name was Edward Moore Kennedy. If he was just Edward Moore, he would not have been able to. Just would have been by the side of the road.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah. Well, it's super alarming. It's super alarming that we've got two crazy people in there and there. And of course, they're not the only crazy people, because the President is crazy. He's absolutely nutso.

[Michael Wolff]

No, well, I think that that's one of the things as over the course of this Trump era, as the normies have fallen by the side because Trump is crazy. None of these people, I mean, you know, and everybody, Everybody makes this kind of negotiation with themselves when they go to work for a politician. All politicians are a little crazy. But I can help restrain this. I can, you know, at some. There's some. There's some level that we're going to reach that's manageable or acceptable. Well, this never happened with Trump, and all of the normies were washed out, leaving only the strange people, the peculiar people, the toadies, the lackeys, the bottom of the barrel.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah. Well, I did a very fun interview with Seth Moulton on the Daily Beast podcast this week, and he was talking about how it's essential that in the Democratic Party, the older leaders now let go of the torch of power and pass it to a new generation. And this morning came the news that. How do we pronounce this? You will know better than me. Stanie Hoyer from Maryland, congressman who is 86 years old is stepping down. He's stepping down. Voluntarily stepping down.

[Michael Wolff]

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[Joanna Coles]

And Michael Wolff and I are back inside Trump's head. It's just unfathomable. Nowhere else would this be allowed. You don't know of any industry where someone is allowed to stay that length of time unless they run the company, unless they started the company. It's crazy.

[Michael Wolff]

Berkshire Hathaway but well, yeah, as I.

[Joanna Coles]

Said, founded the company. So that's slightly different. If you found the company, you can do it. I guess people he can argue. Well people voted for me which is, which is fair enough. But it does feel very clear, you.

[Michael Wolff]

Know, on an individual basis that seems, that seems you can explain that and that's, that's understandable. I mean the problem with the Democrats that that became on an institutional basis.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

So you know, I mean stenyhor, I mean he has a long, respectable, enviable record and he doesn't seem to be suffering from dementia like some of his colleagues. But in general, the tolerance for that and this has to do with a lot of insights institutional, a lot of structural factors. I mean once you're a Congress, you're in Congress and this is increasingly, increasingly true. There's no competition. You are, it's a job. It's a job for life. And that's clearly, clearly a problem. And that's clearly because of the Democrats long success up until the Trump years that they've institutionalized their own success. And that means institutionalizing people who inevitably got older and too old.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And calcified.

[Joanna Coles]

Calcified in the roles.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. The interesting thing about Seth Moulton is that he's a MAGA favorite. Bannon was always talking up Seth Moulton. So that's a, it's a.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I think he's prepared to work across the parties. Right. And he's a moderate. The establishment, the Democratic establishment don't like him because he won't wait in line. And he's a man on A mission, I think.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, yeah, he hasn't. That mission hasn't really gotten him too far yet, but.

[Joanna Coles]

But, well, he's been in Congress.

[Michael Wolff]

It'd be curious to see. And he's. Thathe represents that otherthat side of the Democratic Party, which a lot of people have high hopes for, which is former military people in the Democratic Party. And that's not necessarily an intuitive position because the Democratic Party has been, for a long time the party that has stood against the military. The military is a deeply conservative force in American life. And.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and it represents the opposite of community organizers and activists, which are now, you know, throwing up candidates. Zoram Mamdani being one. And of course, Barack Obama was a community organizer before he became president.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, you say that with distaste.

[Joanna Coles]

No, I'm not saying it with distaste. It's completely the opposite to the military. You're completely right. But Seth Moulton struck me as energetic. He's taking on Ed Markey, very popular senator in Massachusetts, who nevertheless. 79.

[Michael Wolff]

You were wowed by a politician.

[Joanna Coles]

I was. I was. I was excited by a politician. I was excited.

[Michael Wolff]

This has happened to me many times, and let me just say, it's always a mistake.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, it may be a mistake, but what was.

[Michael Wolff]

Politicians are very good in person. I mean, a.

[Joanna Coles]

No, they're not all very good. They're not all very good in person.

[Michael Wolff]

One variety of politicians, they turn, they. They train, they. They look you in the eye, they treat you like you're the most important person.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, so I'm going to push back on you on that, because you have frequently said to me, as you've met many politicians, and you and I have discussed both on and off the podcast, who are going to be likely candidates for the Democrats in 2028. There is a difference between politicians who can speak normally and politicians who unfortunately, like Hillary Clinton, when she ran for president, and like Kamala Harris, speak in policy paragraphs. And you can't get into kind of any sense of the human being in there. And, you know, but.

[Michael Wolff]

But there's. But there's actually then a further. A further distinction. There are those people, politicians, who, in person, and you go, wow, you know, this is a really interesting person, like Hillary Clinton. And then they get up on a stage and they go. And they go dead. They turn talk cotton. And actually, Seth Moulton in. In a public setting is. No, you know, he's not Mr. Charisma.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, that may be true, but at least I would urge people to watch the podcast, make their own opinion. But I thought it was exhilarating to talk to someone who was able to speak normally about what's going on.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, well, we'll see Seth's numbers.

[Joanna Coles]

And you know what? We got so many comments on your disagreeing with Mark Kelly. In fact, I would say the majority of the thousands of comments we got on our last podcast were disagreeing with you fervently about your agreeing with Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, let's, let's, let's go there and let me double down, but, oh, my.

[Joanna Coles]

God, you're getting all trumpy on me. You are getting all trumpy by double downing.

[Michael Wolff]

First, I don't in any way think that Kelly should be penalized for anything that he said here. I think he had a perfectly right, perfect right to say, to say whatever he wanted to say. And in this instance, that, you know, he was making a broad state. I mean, it was a broad objection to Donald Trump, and I think it was right all four. But on the specific point in which he is openly, openly advocating that American military personnel disregard orders or, or disregard, I think, illegal orders.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. Illegal orders.

[Michael Wolff]

It was in their purview to disregard and what they might believe is an illegal order, which is A, is really not true. B, is, is, you know, is, is certainly, is certainly ridiculous. And from the point of view from someone who had a command role in the armed forces would not be something that person, Kelly in this case, would have believed when he was in that role. So it was just, it was just agitprop. It didn't mean anything. And I think it should have been treated as something that didn't mean anything. And who cares? But on the merits, he is flat out wrong.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, well, I can see another 2,000 comments coming on, coming in on this alone. And of course, I think what people were very mindful of was Trump's overreaction to it, because in a sense, as you say, it's agitprop. And they're playing a game and it's performative. And Trump said, well, he should be executed. This is seditious. It should be executed.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And in that sense, by the way, it works for everybody. Kelly's profile is elevated. Trump has an enemy. Everybody is playing everybody else's game here. And I suppose more power to them.

[Joanna Coles]

But less power to him if he ends up getting his pension cut and his status revoked in the military. I mean, Pete Hegseth.

[Michael Wolff]

In the next Democratic administration, we're just. This is not, none of this is real. None of this is substantive. None of this, none of this counts.

[Joanna Coles]

But it's hard to think of a better public servant than Mark Kelly, who's, you know, served his country, whose wife was shot 15 years ago, actually this week. Famously, Gabby Gifford's an amazing congresswoman, and the two of them have worked diligently to try and restrict access to guns so that this doesn't happen again.

[Michael Wolff]

He seems completely, you know, someone you.

[Joanna Coles]

Would want to elect and also flexing his muscles for 2028.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, sure. I mean, I'm just saying on the merits of the thing that people in the United States military should not do not and should not have, each individually have the discretion to decide which order they are going to obey in which they are not. This is pretty basic. Well, yes, yes. In Nuremberg like situations, they're going to have to make a choice. But to cast any, in any sense that Nuremberg, like decision making, occurs on a frequent basis is, again, ridiculous.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, and back to our German analogy. All right, so what else is going on? I know you were concerned about this group, Club America, which is the teenage version of Turning Point. Club America is now being rolled out in high schools, and it's an offshoot of Charlie Kirk's Turning Point America. And it's causing all sorts of drama in schools because it's encouraging, I guess, far right values or what they would say, a constitutional.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, here's something that seems, that seems patently something we don't want is let's politicize high school. I mean, of all of the other problems you have in high school, now we're adding, we're adding right, left, whatever.

[Joanna Coles]

I mean, but I was thinking back to when I was at high school where I was shamelessly a member of the Young Conservatives because they had better parties, and then briefly a member of Young labor because they seemed to have better ideas. Were you never a member of the.

[Michael Wolff]

Political party, high school or university?

[Joanna Coles]

No, no, no. This was. Well, it was actually when I was at high school, but it was outside of the school, so it wasn't school spirit sponsored. But I was a member of the local ones because A, I was interested in politics and B, I wanted a social life beyond school. And they were sort of interesting people and they had good parties and local politicians would come and talk. Did you not do any of that? You were probably too busy growing your hair and smoking weed. I didn't have access to drugs in the north of England when I was going up my schoolwork and doing your schoolwork. I don't even remember doing any Schoolwork. I read a few Shakespeare plays which have stood me in good stead. I would urge every school student to do that. But Club America seems a somewhat ominous development and is clearly causing problems for certain principals in schools where the parents are now using it as a political tug of war.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I would say in general, and this is also, I think, from, from the left as well as the right. Let's, you know, let's get politics out of high school.

[Joanna Coles]

Maybe they should send Erica Kirk round to do a high school tour in the way that Tony de Coppel from CBS is doing a tour of somewhat, it seems, random cities. Erica Kirk could start doing the high school tour. J.D. vance could join her.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, that's, I mean, you know, Charlie Kirk, the growth of Turning Point USA is partly because Charlie Kirk did these, did these college tours.

[Joanna Coles]

What else is going on? I tell you what isn't going on or what I feel isn't going on, which I'm concerned about is really diligent, dogged research of people going through the Epstein files.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, I mean, we're in this thing first thing. Nothing is going on besides Venezuela at this point. I mean, this is a, a monster development in the Trump political life, and I would say the most significant development in the second term so far. I mean, he has done what he always manages to do, which is to change the subject through a reorder, a fundamental reordering of the, of the narrative of the drama that we're living in. And we have now, we're now invading, we've invaded this country, we're set to invade other countries. It is hard to focus on anything else. Although one can make the argument certainly that we should because we're not really doing any of these things. But that's another.

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[Michael Wolff]

The, the Trump mirror and the Trump. And the Trump illusion. But which, which works. But Epstein and, and the thing about Epstein and we might trust this is that it never goes away. It always comes back. And there are, I mean, I think the question to ask right now is what's the status of the, what were the remaining, the 5 million other documents that have not been released? What's the status there? And I don't, I don't know the status.

[Joanna Coles]

I mean, I read somewhere that.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm not sure, I'm not sure anyone does because the status is in the hands of the Trump White House, which has now distracted everyone from this job. The job of, of releasing the Epstein files has been preempted by the job of running Venezuela.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, good Old Thomas Massie, who is one of the Republicans that fought for the release of the Epstein files, has been saying that, has been criticizing the White House and criticizing Pam Bondi and saying this is ridiculous. Where are they? You know, they're failing to release enough of them. And as far as I can understand, they've only released 1% of them. And I spoke yesterday to a victim advocate who said that the survivors are absolutely furious about this, that many of them feel they put themselves out there and they're beside themselves.

[Michael Wolff]

And I think we can assume that this, I mean, this hasn't gone away, this is coming back. But the operation here, the Trump operation, is to distract from this. How do we distract from this? Well, we invade a country. Okay, well, that's, this is pretty much by the, by the distraction book.

[Joanna Coles]

So.

[Michael Wolff]

I think in the short term, it's going to be Venezuela, and then old reliable Epstein will be back again.

[Joanna Coles]

What about Greenland? Do you think that we might go from Venezuela to Greenland?

[Michael Wolff]

You know, apparently, apparently. But again, that's the thing. And we had discussed this, this, this before. There is very little, if anything, that we would get from Greenland by invading it that we do not have now or by owning it.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and also, what would an invasion look like? There's only 30,000 people there in rather nice, brightly colored huts. I rather like the look of going to Greenland. In fact, I thought, should we go and do a PO podcast from, From Greenland? Be super fun.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I think that, I think the form of this could very well take. We own Greenland and we can do the following Trump pronouncement. But we can already do those things, right? We already have a defense agreement which is, gives us wide latitude to almost do anything, anything defensively in the defense of Greenland and the Arctic, Arctic territory that we want to do similarly. You know, then there's this thing about, you know, you know, mineral rights. There's an open invitation. Greenland was says, yeah, we're game. You know, bring your, bring your investment here. We'll take it.

[Joanna Coles]

And it's also, I remember this from a brief period I had in business. It's actually quite difficult to figure out where all those minerals are. I mean, it's not as if people haven't been trying. They've been trying for years.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I mean, that is what there is this, I mean, this is all good for Greenland. So the extent that they haven't been exploited is that they're difficult to exploit and costly and the return is less than people are probably looking for. But now Trump is in a position to say we own. He's very, very capable of doing this. We own green. He's going to make an announcement. We own Greenland. And we can. We're going to go in there and we're going to put the US Military there and defend the Arctic territories and we're going to exploit. And we now have the right to exploit all of their mineral capacity, which he already has. We don't have to own it to do that, but he'll just add that flourish.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And American companies have already been trying to find out where these minerals are. But if there's anybody from Greenland watching or listening, please let us know how we can come and do a podcast from Greenland. I really want to do it from one of those lovely painted huts, all different colors, bright colors, very cheery, you know, in a land where there isn't much sun in the winter.

[Michael Wolff]

Cooley, Greenland. I actually had a brother who once spent the summer, had a summer job working on the United States military base in Thule, Greenland.

[Joanna Coles]

I think you invent your brother. I don't think he exists. I've met your sister. But I feel like you invoke your brother when you want to come up with some absolute obscure Wolfian family law, which isn't necessarily true. Didn't you have a brother who trekked across America at some point?

[Michael Wolff]

No, I only have one brother who lives in Maui. Many years ago, he left civilization for paradise.

[Joanna Coles]

Right, right. Well, you're both living in seaside.

[Michael Wolff]

I might say he left his family for paradise.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, well, you're both living in seaside resorts, so you have that in common. The Hamptons, Maui, rich seaside resorts, as I'm sure commentators will point out.

[Michael Wolff]

Are there poor seaside resorts?

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, of course, there are a lot in the uk.

[Michael Wolff]

Some in the uk.

[Joanna Coles]

I was going to say that the uk Very depressing. Super depressing. Super depressing. Or now we're going to get angry. UK people. People writing him. But there was actually a book written recently about how essentially the sad. The sad its thesis was because air fares have become so cheap, people in the UK now flee the UK for their two weeks vacation. And so these. The UK coastal map is just full of these sad towns that have fallen apart. And there are sort of. Sort of aging roller coasters and old ice cream stands. Slowly.

[Michael Wolff]

I once accompanied Boris Johnson to. To speak before some conservative ladies in a seaside town.

[Joanna Coles]

Was it Blackpool? Was it Blackpool?

[Michael Wolff]

No, I think it comes to mind that it was a town called Yarmouth.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, yeah, Yarmouth. Great Yarmouth in Suffolk. Yeah. And Blackpool, where they often have party conferences and I once got very ill from eating oysters there. I would recommend anybody avoid the oysters in Blackpool. I suspect the ones in Amaganset are slightly fresher. Anyway, I did notice your friend Lindsey Halligan popping up because when she was in the White House before she got sent off to Virginia where she spectacularly flamed out trying to indict James Comey.

[Michael Wolff]

And Tish James and a word from our sponsors.

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[Joanna Coles]

Terms and Michael Wolff and I are back inside Trump's head. She was told to go and tell the Smithsonian to get its act together and if they wanted to continue with federal funding, they had to jump through a lot of hoops, not least on how they were describing American history to American visitors. And J.D. vance now looks like he's going to take a seat on the Smithsonian board. There are several more seats coming up for grabs this year year and it looks like the Smithsonian might go the way of the Kennedy Center. Do you have any thoughts on this?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, the Trump Smithsonian.

[Joanna Coles]

The Trump Smithsonian, absolutely.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I think that's, I think everything goes this way. Yes. There's no. Why, why stop? Why stop with one institution when they can all be Trump's such and such.

[Joanna Coles]

Institutions and Trump's view of America and the history of America? I mean, yeah, why not stop and take these world class institutions, the envy of other countries and just Trumpify them? That's what he does, slaps his name on things.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. Again, we're, and I don't know what is the moment in which too much is too much? What is the moment in which, in which there is some response to this? I mean this sounds weak. I think from my point of view.

[Joanna Coles]

Like, well, Congress has been mojo.

[Michael Wolff]

I am really, I am really, I think it's, it's almost, it's in the story of the, of the Trump administration of what is going on. And equal story, a parallel story might be, ought to be why is there no response to this?

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and people would say there is a response and it's online, which isn't as effective. So Michael, on a scale of 1 to 10, how bad is it for America if 10 is very bad.

[Michael Wolff]

10. I mean bad is not bad. And, and, and very bad are not without, are, are not limited. So it can be 10 and get worse. It's like the top of the bestseller list, which is the top of the bestseller list not only means you sell more than every other book, but, but the sky's the limit. Your every other book sells, sells this, this many thousands of copies and you at the bestseller list sell millions upon millions of copies.

[Joanna Coles]

The writer's dream. It's the writer in you coming out. That's the analogy.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, well, I was once in that position and it was quite a sweet one.

[Joanna Coles]

You'll be back there again. Although I will say that our podcast is going up the charts. The YouTube chat, our podcast is going up the YouTube charts.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, we should, we should get to.

[Joanna Coles]

We were number 55 out of all podcasts on YouTube this week, which is.

[Michael Wolff]

Pretty damn good from the number one.

[Joanna Coles]

Of course, of course we're working our way slowly there, but I'm just saying we only know But I do think.

[Michael Wolff]

On the more I think we are at 2. I think it is almost inconceivably bad how much, how things are now. We have reached an outside limit of anything that the nation has ever experienced and it continues to get worse. I mean I would have Said we were at number 10 before Venezuela. Now we're in Venezuela or not in Venezuela or something.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and who knows what happens with Venezuela. I mean, tomorrow Trump is supposed to be sitting down with the three big American gas companies, gas and oil companies to talk to them about the opportunities in Venezuela. And I just.

[Michael Wolff]

And they're going to come out of that and say, yes, yes, yes. And we're doing this and they're going to do nothing.

[Joanna Coles]

Right, Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Nobody wants to go to take gas out of the ground or oil out of the ground in Venezuela.

[Joanna Coles]

We'll be back on Saturday to discuss whether or not we've gone to 11. I guess it's a strange week.

[Michael Wolff]

There is no strange week. It's 10. We've maxed out at 10. And then it's just. And then from there it's. The sky's the limit. You can't. You can't contain the top.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, well, we'll be back and we'll do an update on Melania, I hope, and we'll have people's questions for Melania, too.

[Michael Wolff]

Fantastic.

[Joanna Coles]

All right. Sleep well, Michael, I hope the, the anxiety of what's going on isn't giving you sleepless nights.

[Michael Wolff]

I. I've had sleepless nights all my life. Call me anytime.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay? Well, I'm still sleeping well for now. For now.

[Michael Wolff]

Really?

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, for now. It's the only place you get respite. It's the only place. Unconsciousness. Unconsciousness. All right, Michael, we'll talk on Saturday. Saturday. We'll talk on Saturday.

[Michael Wolff]

Fantastic.

[Joanna Coles]

All right, so if you have been. Thank you for watching and listening. Please leave us a comment on YouTube, especially about Mark Kelly. I know that's going to fuel people again. Don't forget to check out Obsessed, our new podcast with Kevin Fallon, letting you know what he's obsessed about and the best things to watch this week. And, Michael, what else? What have I left out?

[Michael Wolff]

You and I are going to be at the 92nd Street. Why on January 21st, talking Trump Epstein.

[Joanna Coles]

Venezuela will have forgotten by Venezuela by then. It's still 10 days out.

[Michael Wolff]

And Mark Kelly, if people are still grousing about that, I'm there to grouse at. But it will be a good evening.

[Joanna Coles]

And as you've pointed out before, it's a year and a day since Trump's inauguration of the second administration, so we can happily relive Lauren Sanchez in her frilly bustier under that lovely white coat and all those.

[Michael Wolff]

No, we can do the whole the first Trump year in five minutes. We're just going to power through it.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah. So come and see us. Bring your questions and tell your friends and our Bee Beast Level members. I want to give you a big shout out. If you haven't joined the Daily Beast community, you really should just press the button below below where you're watching this. But big shout out to our Bee Beast Level members. Yvette Johnson me thinks Betsy o' Farrell Mills and Lynns Shelby Max Quibbit David Sherry Thomas Moore, Maria Voltaine D. Kujawatts Sinja Lund, John H. Overocca Deb K. Ostrander Sandra Clark Travels with Carl Andrew Beaver Capernator Harry Clark Dawn McCarthy Daniel dog lover M. Griner Dicetone Fulvia Orlando Herbie Andrew Mellor, who I've discovered is actually from the Ribble Valley in the north of England Tattnall Val Love, Francisco, Will Hutchison, Andrea Hodel, Bocock D.C. sharon Shipley, Connie Rutherford, Karen Wright and Heidi Reilly. Thank you very much. Do you want to thank our production team?

[Michael Wolff]

I would thank our production team, but the personnel seems to be changing so quickly that I the good news is.

[Joanna Coles]

The team is still led by Devon Rogerino and we've added Ryan Murray and Heather Passaro to our team.

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[Michael Wolff]

Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily Beast [e-mail] podcasts if you enjoyed this.

[Joanna Coles]

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[Joanna Coles]

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