Why Trump Is Obsessed by Burning Evidence: Wolff

Summary

The Daily Beast Podcast

Episode: Why Trump Is Obsessed by Burning Evidence: Wolff
Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Michael Wolff
Date: November 19, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into Donald Trump’s persistent obsession with the destruction of evidence, specifically his long-standing questioning of why Richard Nixon did not burn the Watergate tapes—a fixation Wolff contends is deeply relevant to Trump’s ongoing handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files. The conversation also explores the chaotic politics surrounding the possible release of Epstein-related materials, the remaking of federal institutions, the fracturing MAGA coalition, and the potential inflection points of Trump’s second term.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Trump’s Obsession with Evidence Destruction

• Trump and Nixon’s Tapes:
  Wolff highlights how Trump repeatedly talks about Nixon’s failure to destroy the Watergate tapes, suggesting Trump believes strongly in burning any evidence that could implicate him.

  • “One of Trump’s obsessions, a weird obsession … He comes back to it always. And it is, why didn’t Nixon burn the tapes? I would have burned those tapes. They were his tapes.” (03:33, 07:16)

• Application to Epstein Files:
  Trump’s fixation on “burning” is portrayed as directly influencing his actions regarding sensitive documents, notably the Epstein files.

  • “He’s been sitting on these tapes … for a year. In that time, he’s dismantled the Justice Department and remade it … whose clear, singular priority is his protection.” (08:14)

The Politics of Releasing the Epstein Files

• Flooding the Zone:
  Wolff discusses the current White House strategy to release overwhelming amounts of information to obscure consequential details—a tactic familiar from political crisis management.

  • “Within the White House … the precise strategy they have named is we are flooding the zone … pile on so much news, so much distraction that, that nobody knows what’s going on.” (03:16)

• Bipartisan Maneuvering and Chaos:
  The release of the Epstein files has become a locus for political infighting and grandstanding. Republicans and Democrats have released different troves of emails and documents, contributing to confusion and narrative manipulation.

  • “The Republicans on [the Oversight Committee] have released the overwhelming majority of these emails … rather than a handful.” (04:24)
  • “It is hard to know what is going on. It is hard to know what will happen. It’s hard to know what has happened.” (03:12)

• What's Actually in the Files?:
  The hosts reiterate the question that haunts the process: no one knows precisely what the “Epstein files” comprise, who controls them, or what will be meaningfully released.

  • “We don’t even know where they are or who is in possession.” (10:12, 10:23)

Cover-Up, Chain of Custody, and Trump’s Vulnerability

• Layers of Information Control:
  Wolff recounts the confusion over which agencies possess Epstein-related evidence. Various FBI offices, local law enforcement, and the Southern District of New York all have different caches, with procedural barriers to release (e.g., grand jury secrecy).

  • “There’s information held in the federal district in Florida … state prosecution … reams of financial information. … Another place, by the way, where Donald Trump is vulnerable.” (13:01)

• Possibility of Destroyed Evidence:
  The hosts speculate that any incriminating material—such as compromising images—may have already been destroyed, especially given Trump’s obsession with eliminating evidence.

  • “Will those pictures be there? Have they been—”
    “Well, if they're not there, have they been burned?” (15:03–15:06)

• Limits of Loyalty at DOJ:
  Wolff questions whether Trump’s personnel changes have fully insulated him from exposure, pointing to ongoing uncertainties and bureaucratic resistance.

  • “How truly successful has Trump been in remaking the Justice Department … to be entirely focused on protecting him?” (17:18)

The Victims and Public Sympathy

• Unique Nature of the Epstein Files:
  This scandal, unlike white-collar crimes, centers on real victims. Public and internal DOJ sympathy may affect what is released.

  • “So many people feel sympathetic to the victims … there's this industrial sized network of abuse.” (17:56)

• Manipulating Content:
  Wolff suggests the files, when released, may purposefully omit anything implicating Trump, instead emphasizing Epstein and others’ misdeeds.

  • “I don’t think at any point this has been about protecting Jeffrey Epstein … It has been about protecting Donald Trump.” (18:35)

Legislative Drama and Trump's Second Term

• Senate’s Next Move:
  Whether the Senate will demand release of all material is uncertain; Trump may count on Senate inaction or ensure that anything released is sanitized.

  • “This is Donald Trump. It may very well be, yes. I’m going to say release these files because I know the Senate is not going to pass this.” (11:05)

• MAGA Split/Endgame:
  Hosts describe dissent within Trump’s base, with figures like Marjorie Taylor Greene distancing themselves as the movement fragments and as Trump’s power wanes in his second term.

  • “There is a rank opportunist if there ever has been one. She knows which way the wind is blowing and … it's not blowing in his direction.” (41:39)
  • “There will be an inflection point. Now the question is, have we arrived at that inflection point?” (36:15)

Broader Corruption: DOJ, MBS, and Saudi Links

• Justice Department Incompetence:
  Discussion of the controversial appointment of Lindsey Halligan, an unqualified attorney, as a US Attorney, leading to botched, politically motivated prosecutions.

  • “It is crazy, unprecedented, unimaginable that Lindsey Halligan … has never practiced criminal law … has been made a U.S. attorney.” (26:29)

• Authoritarianism—But Done Badly:
  Wolff points out the irony that Trump’s authoritarian moves are undercut by incompetence.

  • “It’s an authoritarian and incompetent authoritarian, which might be … the saving grace.” (30:34)

• Trump, Kushner, and the Saudis:
  The episode explores links between Trump, Jared Kushner, and Saudi Crown Prince MBS—including business deals and Epstein's connections to MBS.

  • “Epstein was quite close to mbs … Epstein giving MBS financial advice … Epstein once described to me it was illegal to bring unaccompanied women into Saudi Arabia … [so] dress[ed] the women accompanying him as flight attendants.” (33:28)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Trump’s mental process:
  “What Donald Trump is not going to do is create a situation in which he himself could be implicated. … Let's go back to burn the tapes.” (19:33)

• On the ‘Flood the Zone’ strategy:
  “You pile on so much news, so much distraction, that, that nobody knows what's going on.” (03:16)

• On DOJ loyalty:
  “He has dismantled the Justice Department and remade it as a … group of people whose clear, singular priority is his protection.” (08:14)

• On Trump’s base turning:
  “Even the MAGA people … are saying, you’re protecting yourself.” (06:26)

• On MBS and Epstein:
  “Epstein was quite close to mbs. … Epstein once described to me it was illegal to bring unaccompanied women into Saudi Arabia. He would dress the women accompanying him as flight attendants.” (33:28)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Trump’s Nixon Tape Obsession: 03:33, 07:16
• Mechanics & Politics of File Release: 03:03 – 05:49
• Flood the Zone Strategy: 03:16 – 04:20
• Content of Epstein Files: 09:03 – 10:23
• Layers of Custody & Possibility for Cover-Up: 12:53 – 16:33
• Incompetence at DOJ (Lindsey Halligan story): 26:07 – 28:59
• Authoritarianism and Incompetence: 29:01 – 30:36
• MAGA Fracture and Inflection Point: 36:15 – 42:22
• Epstein, MBS, and Saudi Connections: 30:57 – 34:42

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Notable Listener Questions & Cultural References

• Listener Questions for Melania Trump:

  • On Ivana’s burial and Ghislaine Maxwell subpoenas. (44:34–45:22)

• Sherlock Holmes Reference:

  • “Silver Blaze,” the “curious incident of the dog in the night-time”—the metaphor about the absence of expected evidence. (45:22–46:00)

• Fashion Sidebar:

  • Discussion of Melania Trump’s fashion as (literal) armor and social-media branding. (47:05–48:49)

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Conclusion

This lively episode is both a deep dive into Trump’s psyche regarding evidence destruction and a clearinghouse of political intrigue surrounding the Epstein files. Wolff’s analysis centers on the intertwined dynamics of cover-up, bureaucratic chaos, and the looming vulnerabilities of Trump’s administration. As the episode closes, listeners are left with the sense that the “inflection point” for Trump’s political power is near, as the political and legal perils swirling around him increasingly threaten to burst into the open.

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Memorable Quote to Sum Up:
“What does the Epstein thing represent? It represents Donald Trump’s vulnerability. … It is the Republicans who are using this to maybe the word would be to test his vulnerability.”
— Michael Wolff (36:56)

Transcript

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[Michael Wolff]

So let's just think. Let's go and take a step back. One of Trump's obsessions, a weird obsession. Why didn't Nixon burn the tapes? Dwells on it. I mean, asking the question, what was that dummy doing? What I would have done if I were there. I would have burned those tapes. They were his tapes. Why didn't he burn them? The word burn, he repeats it again and again.

[Daily Beast Host]

Right. So destroying evidence. So is it possible that they could destroy evidence and there would be a cover up evidence in the Epstein files?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, of course.

[Daily Beast Host]

If, for example, the Polaroids you'd seen and burned them, wouldn't there be someone who would at some point report that to someone else?

[Michael Wolff]

You know the nature of COVID ups. Do they, do they unravel? I mean, I would say the only thing that is distinctly different at this moment in time is that the Justice Department has been remade. The FBI has been remade. The question is, have they remade it enough.

[Daily Beast Host]

Michael.

[Michael Wolff]

Joanna.

[Daily Beast Host]

So I've slightly lost the plot in terms of where are we with the release of the Epstein files? Trump says he released the Kraken. Mike Johnson, as we're recording, is talking, saying this is all political. What's happening and what's.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, it's all political. As a good part of his, of his caucus is voting to do exactly that.

[Daily Beast Host]

And have been some time these braves are going up against them and Thomas Massey.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, yeah. So I have no idea about how this has become political. It seems actually a consensus has been arrived at. But let's do this where we are, because I think it is hard to know what is going on. It is hard to know what will happen. It's hard to know what has happened. Right, so right where we are right now is the Democrats released a handful of emails from Jeffrey Epstein, which came from the Jeffrey Epstein estate. The Republicans then released 20,000 of them. So we have a, you know, and they, within the White House what their strategy and it's the precise strategy that they've, that they have named is we are flooding the zone. So that's an old tactic. You got bad news. Well, you pile on so much news, so much distraction that, that nobody knows what's going on.

[Daily Beast Host]

And this is coming from the Oversight Committee, correct?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, yeah. The Republicans on that, the Republican side of the Oversight Committee, they have released the overwhelming majority of these emails, tens of thousands rather than a handful. And what we have seen is many other people, including myself, becoming the story rather than Donald Trump. Donald Trump is in there as a story, but as one among many, many, many, many people. Okay, that's where we are right now. So call that sort of phase two. And I think we should go back to phase one because phase one has been the great dark delay. So these files, I mean, really since the summer, it's like, why don't we release these files? Are we going to release these files? Donald Trump said he was going to release these files. No.

[Daily Beast Host]

Doesn't it go back to February, though, when Pam Bondi said, I have these files on my desk?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Daily Beast Host]

So then they gave some to the.

[Michael Wolff]

Instances so close to a year. Basically. Yes. So what has been. And now we're at the point. Yes, release the files. We're back to that again, remember, to Trump during the campaign is, oh, yeah, sure, let's release the files.

[Daily Beast Host]

And Kash Patel and Dan Bongino, who are now running the FBI, well, they.

[Michael Wolff]

Were, let's release the files. Trump was, okay, yeah, okay. But anyway, Trump is back to. Yeah, okay, so We've come full circle on that. But what has happened within that year and what brings Trump now to say, to be so adamant against not releasing these files. Adamant. Risking, you know, enormously, all kinds of blowback, including blowback from his own party, including blowback that may well have fractured the MAGA base.

[Daily Beast Host]

Right. And perhaps best personified by Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, I'm not even sure best, I think, from without. Throughout the MAGA side of this, there has been, you know, what are you doing? This is not what you said you'd be doing. You're protecting. What are you protecting? Coming to the Verge, even the MAGA people, of saying, you're protecting yourself.

[Daily Beast Host]

Remember, Elon Musk came out and said, Trump is in the Epstein files. And then he deleted the tweet when, you know, it became clear the White House had put pressure on him. And he said, oh, I did that. I was, you know, it was a fit of pique.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. But let's go. So the more interesting thing is we got that he doesn't want to release the files. Files are, we can assume, dangerous to him. He doesn't want to release.

[Daily Beast Host]

And we know that he's in the files.

[Michael Wolff]

And we know that he's in the files. But now we're releasing the files. So what is that? So let's just think. Let's go and take a step back. One of Trump's obsessions, a weird obsession, and it is an obsession that returns again and again. It's been. He's brought it up really, out of the blue in conversations with me. I understand. I know many other people. It comes up. He comes back to it always. And it is, why didn't Nixon burn the tapes? Dwells on it. I mean, asking the question, what was that dummy doing? What I would have done if I were there. I would have burned those tapes. They were his tapes. Why didn't he burn them? The word burn, he repeats it again and again.

[Daily Beast Host]

Right. So destroying evidence.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. So, you know, I mean, I don't know. We've had. He's been sitting on these tapes for. He's been sitting on the Epstein files, so called for, for a year. In that time, he's dismantled the Justice Department and remade it as a. As a group of people who have a, you know, whose clear, singular priority is his protection.

[Daily Beast Host]

Well, and as we've said, the number 1, 2, and 3 at the Justice Department were all his personal lawyers. Pam Bondi, Todd Blanche, Emile Beauvais.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. So what have they been doing during this time to this Material, These, the Epstein files.

[Daily Beast Host]

And just to be clear in as much as one can be clear in this, and I know we've discussed this many times before, but people still ask, what is in these files?

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, that's. We've just done. We've done phase two. We began with phase two. That's the flood the zone.

[Daily Beast Host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

We've gone back to phase one, which is what has happened in the year that all of the attention has been on these files. Understanding Trump's obsession with Nixon that he didn't burn the tapes. Now let's go to phase three.

[Daily Beast Host]

Okay, before we do, can I just ask one question? The Oversight Committee released a ton of emails last Thursday, but those came from the Republicans.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, they came. The Oversight Committee differentiate here between the.

[Daily Beast Host]

Estate and what the DOJ has.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. They subpoenaed the Epstein estate, they got this material. The Democrats released a handful of emails.

[Daily Beast Host]

The Republicans then released another 30,000 documents.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Daily Beast Host]

Right. So we have those that came out of the estate, but we also have, we believe, a trove of evidence the FBI had when they arrested him.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, so phase three. Phase three is the. Is the release of the Epstein files. Except we don't really know what the Epstein files are. But even before we get to that, the. The House will pass this. A bill, a request, the subpoena, I don't know. But whatever, whatever it formally is, the House will have acted in a positive way on this. Then this goes to the Senate. We don't know how the Senate will act. And it may very well be, this is Donald Trump. It may very well be, yes. I'm going to say release these files because I know the Senate is not going to pass this. We don't know. But let's assume that actually the Senate does pass this, then phase three, what happens? Well, actually, nobody knows what happens. The United States Congress is due something, but we don't know what that something is, because we don't know what the Epstein files are. That's never been defined. We don't even know where they are or who is in possession. The FBI is clearly in possession of certain material. They went into his house after he was arrested in July 2019, and they emptied the house, they emptied the safe. They did the same thing for his properties in Florida, New Mexico, but I don't know if they had access to his property in the Virgin Islands.

[Daily Beast Host]

Right. What about Paris? This house in Paris.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And then I don't know if they had access to Paris either. So just some of the, some of the outstanding questions there but they don't. The FBI doesn't have all of the information. I mean, there is the Southern District in New York, which has its information, and there is lots of information that went to grand juries. There's always a problem with the, with releasing grand jury information. That requires a whole other set of procedures.

[Daily Beast Host]

And also, you can't release information if it's the subject of an investigation, can you? If it's an ongoing investigation, I don't know.

[Michael Wolff]

But there are layers and layers and layers of procedural and legal questions. Then there's information that's held in the. In the Federal District in Florida. Then there's information that's held with the local Palm Beach. I mean, the state prosecution. There is, one would assume, reams of financial information. I mean, one of the other sides of this scandal is the banking dimension of this. Another place, by the way, where Donald Trump is vulnerable. You know, Epstein's relationship with Deutsche bank is involved with Trump's also questionable relationship with Deutsche Bank. And I mean, we can continue to go on to extrapolate where there would be information about Jeffrey Epstein, how much this is specified in. I mean, we haven't seen the, what the nature of the subpoena that they are sending, nor has there been a hearing yet, as there well should be, on where is this information? What is the nature of this information? Then we have to get into the chain of evidence here. You know, I mean, as I have said repeatedly, I have seen pictures of Donald Trump around Jeffrey Epstein's pool with a set of women, age unknown, but which would certainly be, at the very least, hugely embarrassing to the president. You know, will those pictures be there? Have they been.

[Daily Beast Host]

Well, if they're not there, have they been burned?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, exactly. I mean, all of this, and then that's. Okay, so that's the next step of this, having figured out what this information is or taken, whatever you're given. What are you given? And the executive branch, the Justice Department, we assume the FBI, but other parts of the executive branch are effectively the curators of this information. And they can kind of release this in almost any fashion they want. You know, we're looking for it, we're preparing it. We'll send over this part of the Epstein files, which just conveniently implicate everybody else but Donald Trump.

[Daily Beast Host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

We're going through this part and we're going to redact. I mean, have you ever seen it when the government gets in there and.

[Daily Beast Host]

Well, it just puts a black line through absolutely everything?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, there's nothing there. So. And again, where does it come from, you know, are we releasing from the FBI, are we releasing from main Justice, Are we releasing from, from federal, from the individual offices of federal prosecutors? Are we releasing from the irs, are we releasing from the Treasury Department?

[Daily Beast Host]

Nobody knows.

[Michael Wolff]

Let's assume the Epstein story is spread widely over the government of the United States, which I think is certainly true. Are we releasing material from the intelligence community?

[Daily Beast Host]

Good Lord. Well, and also, surely there would be a danger that if they had taken, for example, the photos and destroyed them, that people would know that and at some point these things come out. Well, I mean, I understand he's put loyalists into the doj, but it's also packed with people who are career doj, you know, civil servants who, who don't want to see justice.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you know, I mean, I would say that that would have been true. So there's another question. How truly successful has Trump been in remaking the Justice Department and at least the higher ranks of the Justice Department to be entirely focused on protecting him? You know, I mean, he could have been very successful at this, at this point. I mean, he has, he has. I mean, it seems like on a regular basis they're getting rid of anyone who would question, ask any questions.

[Daily Beast Host]

The thing that I think is different about the Epstein files is the girls that were at the center of it. And so many people feel sympathetic to the victims. I mean, rightly so, but this isn't like a white collar crime where there weren't people at the heart of it. We know there was this industrial sized network of abuse going on, and we saw the victims outside gathered again today demanding the release of the files. And I think internally, even if you are a Trump loyalist, there are people who have tremendous sympathy and even that, but it doesn't.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, but that' sthat' sthat actually plays into the Trump hand. And they can go through this and release the material that relates to Epstein's abuse of these victims and perhaps other people in their abuse of them. And we just don't release any information that implicates Donald Trump. I don't think at any point this has been about protecting Jeffrey Epstein or protecting many of the people in Jeffrey Epstein's orbit. It has been about protecting Donald Trump.

[Daily Beast Host]

What does happen next? We're waiting for this thing to go to the Senate. We're waiting for the Senate to vote on it. Donald Trump just says release the files. Yes, he could, right?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, he could. But let's assume, let's assume that he's not going to do that. Or let's Assume that he's so.

[Daily Beast Host]

Well, he seems to have already done that.

[Michael Wolff]

He has so cleansed the files at this point.

[Daily Beast Host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, there is. And let's go back to burn the tapes. What Donald Trump is not going to do is create a situation in which he himself could be implicated. So we're so. I don't know where this gets us.

[Daily Beast Host]

Okay. So we had Andrew Lowney on the Daily Beast podcast yesterday who said that he'd seen correspondence between FBI agents that said that Jeffrey Epstein had been murdered in his cell by a fellow prison inmate, and he's now trying to find more people that can reinforce that. It all sounds so conspiratorial and so absurd at this point, and yet have you heard anything?

[Michael Wolff]

No, and I think that's bullshit, frankly.

[Daily Beast Host]

Okay, you think he committed suicide?

[Michael Wolff]

No, I don't know. I don't know what happened there. I've said again and again it's implausible that he would. That he died the way they say he died. It is also implausible that if that happened, if there were such communications from FBI people, that this would not come out. You know, these ASU, these AUSAs are, these are Assistant US Attorneys, are, you know, they're, they're straight arrows, particularly when it comes to protecting themselves. They don't keep secrets that could come back and bite them. And that's true, I think, also for FBI agents. So I can't. That seems implausible that a cover up would have. A successful cover up would have been staged here. But having said that, since both things seem to be unTrue, but won't one has to be true? I don't know.

[Daily Beast Host]

So is it possible that they could destroy evidence and there would be a cover up evidence in the Epstein files?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, of course, that seems.

[Daily Beast Host]

But your whole point is they couldn't do a cover up of Jeffrey Epstein's death. Why would they want to do a cover up of destroying the evidence? If, for example, they'd taken the Polaroids you'd seen and burned them, wouldn't there be someone who would at some point report that to someone else?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you would think, you know the nature of COVID ups. Do they unravel? I mean, I would say the only thing that is distinctly different at this moment in time is that the Justice Department has been remade. The FBI has been remade.

[Daily Beast Host]

They can't have remade absolutely everybody.

[Michael Wolff]

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[Daily Beast Host]

And we're back, Michael and I inside Trump's head talking about the Epstein files. All right, so let me ask you another question about the Justice Department. Given what we heard yesterday about the James Comey indictment. Let's talk about Lindsey Halligan, who you have been talking about for some time. She was put in as U.S. attorney in Virginia.

[Michael Wolff]

Just understand, it is crazy, unprecedented, unimaginable that Lindsey Halligan, who has never practiced criminal law, has never, I think, tried a case, I mean, who has been billed as an insurance lawyer and yet she has been made a U.S. attorney. It's not.

[Daily Beast Host]

But the judge overseeing the Comey indictment appears to agree with you.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, the judge was flabbergasted and went down all itemized the way everything that she had done wrong. First thing, she presented this person who has never been in a, quite possibly never been in a courtroom before.

[Daily Beast Host]

To be fair, she may have watched.

[Michael Wolff]

Lawyers on television or may not. She may know nothing about anything, which it would appear is the case. She presented this case before the grand jury and made error after error after error. I mean, stupid error, unbelievable error after error after error. And basically the judge said these errors altogether and or individually mean that the case will have to, the case can't proceed. She.

[Daily Beast Host]

So it gets thrown out basically. Right.

[Michael Wolff]

In such a profound way. Profound way. But, you know, not even, she was not even in the, there was just no professionalism here at any level.

[Daily Beast Host]

I think of it almost as her bringing it in a foreign language that she doesn't speak the language of the court. She doesn't speak the language of the law. And that's actually the language you need to speak when you're bringing a serious indictment against the former head of the FBI, a Republican.

[Michael Wolff]

I'll say. So at any rate, this is, yeah, I mean, it would seem that they're going to throw this out, which becomes.

[Daily Beast Host]

A loss for Donald Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

I would say it's a, you know, what is a loss for Donald Trump? That always is the question because it would be a loss A profound loss and a major embarrassment, a humiliation for any other administration.

[Daily Beast Host]

What do you mean? That he'll just ride through it?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, but appointing Lindsey Halligan, putting Lindsay Halligan in that job would have been just not imaginable for any other president.

[Daily Beast Host]

Well, and it doesn't bode well for.

[Michael Wolff]

The other cases, bringing even the people around Trump, you know, during the campaign, because she was kind of in and out and one of his hot lawyers. But the people around Trump would go, Lindsey Halligan.

[Daily Beast Host]

Well, and it also doesn't bode well for the other cases they're bringing against Tish James and they're trying to bring against Lisa Cook.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I'll say.

[Daily Beast Host]

And Jack Smith.

[Michael Wolff]

So you not only have. You have two things here which are kind of run on parallel tracks, you have the injustice and the exceptional circumstance, the intolerable circumstance of a president trying to prosecute his enemies. We're in a world of authoritarianism, a world we never could have imagined we would find ourselves in. And this is not done secretly. This is done out in the open. Prosecute his direction to his Justice Department. Prosecute my enemies and also his enemies.

[Daily Beast Host]

In the Republican Party, not just Democrats, anybody.

[Michael Wolff]

Anybody who has crossed him. Okay, so you have that extraordinary. But then on the other hand, you have the rank incompetence in the way that they do it. So it's an authoritarian and an incompetent authoritarian, which might be. I don't know. That's.

[Daily Beast Host]

Maybe that's the best thing.

[Michael Wolff]

That's the saving grace. Yeah.

[Daily Beast Host]

I mean, maybe that's a better thing. So Trump has moved rapidly on as we're speaking. He's preparing to entertain mbs. I mean, talk about just moving rapidly on. And world leaders are still coming to pay homage to him.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, but let me bring. I can bring MBS back to Jeffrey Epstein.

[Daily Beast Host]

Go on.

[Michael Wolff]

Everything comes back to Jeffrey Epstein.

[Daily Beast Host]

Epstein, Epstein, Epstein.

[Michael Wolff]

And remember, the MBS thing is, you know, I mean, we should get into this in its particular, Saudi Arabia. Mbs, Remember, MBS is the first visitor to. To the White House in the first administration. Then there's Khashoggi.

[Daily Beast Host]

Remember, they cut up Washington Post correspondent.

[Michael Wolff]

They cut up Khashoggi. And then Jared Kushner befriended MBS and sort of excused the Khashoggi thing and then got $2 billion from the Saudis. I mean, it's very important to see the Saudis in the Persian Gulf as this bottomless source of cash, cash that's clearly flowing into the Trump family coffers. I mean, there's Now a big Trump something or other going up in Riyadh, I think, or there's plans for this.

[Daily Beast Host]

So Jared's business appear Affinity Partners got kicked off with a $2 billion investment policy. Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

And even in the White House. People in the White House would say that Jared was wholly owned by the.

[Daily Beast Host]

By the House of Saud, by the Crown Prince.

[Michael Wolff]

So, you know, and I mean, I think we. Again, let's just come back to this. The connection between the Trump White House and the Persian Gulf. I mean, I think that can't be. It is key. It's vital. It can't be overestimated. But there's also an Epstein connection to mbs. Epstein was quite close to mbs. I mean, this started before when MBS was the. Sort of. Was the second guy. It wasn't necessarily clear that he was going to take over, but anyway, a significant power in the family. Epstein giving MBS financial advice. Epstein once described to me it was illegal to bring unaccompanied women into Saudi Arabia.

[Daily Beast Host]

It was illegal to bring unaccompanied women into Saudi Arabia. Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

He would dress, dress the women accompanying him as flight attendants. I mean, he thought this was a.

[Daily Beast Host]

This was the women he was taking into Saudi Arabia.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, he had a plane, so they were.

[Daily Beast Host]

So they all had to put on a costume at the end of the trip.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. And then I said to him, what would happen otherwise? And then I remember he went, well, got your head cut off.

[Daily Beast Host]

Oh, my goodness.

[Michael Wolff]

But at the same time he was there and he was talking in the months the year before he died, he was talking about setting up and getting himself a house in Riyadh. I mean, this was. He was. This was a close relationship with. With the Saudis, you know, and I mean, he would describe MBS as a. You know, he was a video game player. And, you know, and.

[Daily Beast Host]

Okay, so he was a video game player who's now at the center of the economy of the Middle East.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. At any rate, this all comes back to Epstein.

[Daily Beast Host]

Epstein. Epstein.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Daily Beast Host]

Wow. Okay. Is there something bigger going on here? We know that MAGA is split over here. Trump is saying release the files, assuming I sure. That he thinks he can flood the zone and go after the Democrats who are implicated here with their friendship. So Bill Clinton, Larry Summers, you've been gone after. I mean, anyone who had an adjacency to Jeffrey Epstein, he's deflect, deflect, deflect. Very notably, the people around him, J.D. vance, Marco Rubio have been very, very quiet.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And just let Me add, he's already instructed his Justice Department to investigate these people who have had relationships with Jeffrey Epstein, these Democrats who've had relationships.

[Daily Beast Host]

Are we actually in a new moment here which could be threatening to Trump or is Trump still very much.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, I think you can. I think there are two ways that you have to look at this. This is a president in his second term. He cannot run again. There is in all second terms an inflection point. Things start to go south, you just can't sustain your power. Your power literally begins to fall away. You can't get things done, bad things get done to you. The second term is never successful and it is never good.

[Daily Beast Host]

Why would anyone run for office at this point? Why would anyone run for office?

[Michael Wolff]

So look at it this way. There will be an inflection point. Now the question is, have we arrived at that inflection point? And I think, you know, I mean, the truth is you probably get to these inflection points not at an appointed hour, but you get there on an incremental basis. And I think that we can begin to see power is falling away.

[Daily Beast Host]

Is this the beginning of the end?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that's the question. Or the end of the beginning? I don't know.

[Daily Beast Host]

There's always that dilemma.

[Michael Wolff]

But you know, clearly the Epstein thing. What does the Epstein thing represent? It represents Donald Trump's vulnerability. And, and it is not just the Democrats who are using this, as Mike Johnson seemed to try to insist today, it is the Republicans who are using this to maybe the word would be to test his vulnerability. And once again, a word from our sponsor. Oh, the car from Carvana's here. Well, will you look at that. It's exactly what I ordered. Like, precisely. It would be crazy if there were any catches. But there aren't, right?

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[Daily Beast Host]

And we are back deep, deep inside Trump's head, because also in the background is the drumbeat of the massive increase in health premiums that people are going to see by the end of the year. And I think that's really what is motivating people like Marjorie Taylor Greene as much as she sides with the victims. And I think that appears to be genuine. And she has a daughter in her 20s. But this sense of how on earth are these people going to get reelected if people's insurance premiums have doubled or tripled in some cases? I mean, there's a whole economic background here that, you know, people feel that they are being gaslit by Donald Trump, who says the economy is great, prices are going down, he's not in the grocery store. Women in particular, and I think this is mtg's point, are in the grocery store seeing the price of beef go up, seeing the price of fresh vegetables go up, seeing the price of coffee go up by 40%. Anybody who gets a Starbucks knows coffee's gone up.

[Michael Wolff]

I would put this in a somewhat different way.

[Daily Beast Host]

I thought you might do.

[Michael Wolff]

You might do, which is Donald Trump has been just incredibly an astoundingly successful politician. He runs for office and everybody, you know, goes. You know, half of the country goes into some sort of trance, but when he doesn't run, he leaves all of these other people who have tried to be him or stress their loyalty or hang onto his coattails, they get screwed. So I think we're seeing, here's a man who's not going to be able to run again, and here's a party that has to begin to figure out how it is going to survive without him.

[Daily Beast Host]

And it's exactly what Max Weber talks about. The chaos after the charismatic leader leaves the stage, that everything behind him is in chaos.

[Michael Wolff]

So this is all part of the inflection point. It's all part of not just his. The failure of his policies, but the sense that he's not going to be there anymore. And you've got to pick up the pieces and you've got to find a way forward. Marjorie Taylor Greene is a very good example because there is a rank opportunist if there ever has been one. She knows which way the wind is blowing and her finger is out there and it's not blowing in his direction or from him or whatever the metaphor would be.

[Daily Beast Host]

Yeah, no, no, I think she's a very interesting. I think another analogy would be canary in a coal mine.

[Michael Wolff]

I'll take it.

[Daily Beast Host]

So there was one moment with Trump and the press on the plane that stuck out, which is where he called a reporter a piggy. Did you see that?

[Michael Wolff]

I did, I did.

[Daily Beast Host]

You know, and female reporter.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, the Democrats have always. And the liberals and the anti Trump people have always, have always singled out those occasions and kind of like, see, this is what he is. And then the other half of the country is going, yeah, that's what he is. He calls it like it is.

[Daily Beast Host]

Right. He says it like it is. He sees it.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. So I don't, I'm not sure what that, what that means. That was a, that was a, that was a Trump moment and a Trump moment that has, that has worked for him frequently. So we, we would say, oh, God, he must be losing it. Why would he do that? He wouldn't do it because it works.

[Daily Beast Host]

Right. And deflects. Deflects from what she was asking him, which was about, why have you called for a release.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly right. And now we're talking about, you know, you know, him being, you know, a.

[Daily Beast Host]

Gross guy, which we knew anyway, and.

[Michael Wolff]

Which half of the country knows and half of the country to applaud if by any chance this has passed you by. I am suing the first lady because she threatened to sue me for a billion dollars. But, but before she could do that, I have sued her, which means that I will seek her deposition and her husband's deposition and the depositions of anyone else who can shed light on her and her husband's relationship to Jeffrey Epstein. But meanwhile, I am inviting everyone to submit the questions that they would like to ask Melania Trump. If the deposition were theirs. She will be under oath. She will have to answer. It is the opportunity of a lifetime. So submit your questions. We're here. Ask Melania.

[Daily Beast Host]

Here's a good question from Valentina Mirchava. Question for. Can she explain why Donald's first wife Ivana was buried at one of his golf clubs? That's a good question for her. I mean, we'd be nice to have her.

[Michael Wolff]

I was just trying to think of the answer, but of course, I don't know the answer.

[Daily Beast Host]

You don't need to know the answer. You just need to ask the horse's mouth. Exactly. So here's a question from Sheila Townsend. Can you subpoena Ghislaine in this case against Melania?

[Michael Wolff]

Absolutely.

[Daily Beast Host]

Okay. And can you ask her, were you ever concerned about the age of models you met in the company of Trump and Epstein?

[Michael Wolff]

I think we know the answer to that question.

[Daily Beast Host]

Okay. But you can subpoena her.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Daily Beast Host]

Right. I thought we might just also have a moment because several of you wrote in to talk about the Sherlock Holmes story that you referred to, but we couldn't remember the name of the story, and it's Silver Blaze. I think I've got that right. Several people wrote in, talking about what was interesting. The point of the story is that there was some crime that happens in the night, but the dog doesn't bark. The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night. Also, that musical also gets its title from that story.

[Michael Wolff]

Originally a book.

[Daily Beast Host]

Originally a book. A short story or an actual book?

[Michael Wolff]

An actual book.

[Daily Beast Host]

An actual book. Have you read it?

[Michael Wolff]

I have.

[Daily Beast Host]

Okay. I felt like I should go back and read it, but now maybe I don't need to because the world is moving on so much. Anyway, thank you for pointing that out. Several of you wrote it. It's very helpful. Like, we didn't know what Burning Daylight meant. Now we know. And the dog that didn't bark. But you said you didn't think Epstein was a reader or much of a reader.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I don't. He collected books, especially if they. If he. If they were inscribed by the writer, but I don't necessarily think he read them. And then there was the first edition of Lolita on his bedside in Paris, and he actually had a. Professed to have quite an obsession with Nabokov. And was often seeking out Nabokov experts to.

[Daily Beast Host]

Do you call it. Do you pronounce it Nabokov? I thought it was Nabokoff. Is that an English pronunciation?

[Michael Wolff]

I think I think it is. Or we may have them reversed. I may be giving the English pronunciation and you may be giving the American pronunciation.

[Daily Beast Host]

Very possible, actually. Andrea Hodel sent in a note for Melania saying we should get a fashion expert to analyze Melania Trump, which actually, I think is a very good idea, especially because of the hats she wears. That creates the sort of. Of physical defense around herself, as if.

[Michael Wolff]

She'S starting a fashion vertical.

[Daily Beast Host]

Michael, thank you. We are the looker. The looker is our new fashion vertical. We're going to be talking about style, beauty, ambition, and actually how you show up in the world because our faces are now content, our bodies branding.

[Michael Wolff]

I didn't mean that to give you an opportunity.

[Daily Beast Host]

No, no, but you did give me. Inadvertently, you gave me an opportunity to talk about it. It's really about the fact that everybody's on camera at all times at this point, and our faces have become content, our bodies are branding. You know this from your own Michael Wolf, NYC Instagram people tune in as much for your cardigans and your choice of corduroy pants and your whatever's going on in your lovely house almost as much as they do for what you have to say. So it's really looking at that and examining it and figuring out how much plastic surgery can one have?

[Michael Wolff]

So I'm gonna have to be a guest on that, too.

[Daily Beast Host]

You could be a guest on that. Would you have plastic surgery?

[Michael Wolff]

I would not, but that's me.

[Daily Beast Host]

If you did have plastic surgery, what would you have done? You really don't need any. As I'm looking at you, it doesn't. Your face doesn't seem to have fallen in any way.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I. I don't think. I've never considered the question.

[Daily Beast Host]

Okay, interesting.

[Michael Wolff]

It should never have been an option.

[Daily Beast Host]

Okay, well, I have noticed that you like getting clothes from England.

[Michael Wolff]

Almost all of my clothes are from London.

[Daily Beast Host]

Okay, well, we have a very good piece, video from Scott Galloway on when he first decided to go bald and how it was actually an erotic experience.

[Michael Wolff]

Does he have hair? Well, he probably doesn't have hair.

[Daily Beast Host]

Well, he used to have lots of long hair, and then it was beginning to. To thin. And then he decided, okay, I'm going to shave it off. He got high and his wife shaved it all off for him when they were in Hawaii, I think, and it became his kind of Go to look.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, it is. You might have noticed mine, too, but I would not have done that in such a. Well, I don't get high, so.

[Daily Beast Host]

Well, you must come on the Looker and talk about your look, because you do have a distinctive look, and that would be fun. We're covering men and women. Men account for 30% of procedures now. Cosmetic procedures.

[Michael Wolff]

I see.

[Daily Beast Host]

You know, we could get you a free hair transplant. I've never known you with hair, so I can't even imagine what that would be like.

[Michael Wolff]

I think that's not true. But you forget these hair is like a building in New York. When it's taken down, you can't remember what was there. When we first Met, which was 25.

[Daily Beast Host]

Years ago, did you have gray hair around the edges?

[Michael Wolff]

I think I had a full head of gray hair.

[Daily Beast Host]

No, you didn't. You definitely did.

[Michael Wolff]

I did. I'm sure that I did.

[Daily Beast Host]

We're going to get pictures. We're going to get pictures. Anyway. Check it out. The Looker. Oh, Michael. We'll be back on Thursday to discuss more, and who knows what will have been released by then. And we're still plowing through the first 26,000 emails that came up. Does this mean the estate has given everything over now?

[Michael Wolff]

I assume. I mean, there's nothing in it for the. For the estate. The estate has nothing to protect here. It's like just, you know, take them off our hands. Yeah.

[Daily Beast Host]

Okay. All right, well, we'll be back on Thursday to figure out what, if anything, else has been released and to give you a progress report and anything else you want to say.

[Michael Wolff]

It's good for me.

[Daily Beast Host]

Okay. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. We are independent media. We appreciate your support. Feel free to leave us a comment on YouTube and review us on Spotify and Apple, wherever else you get this podcast and subscribe to the podcast. And don't forget, be beast.

[Michael Wolff]

And thank you to our Beast tier. Herbie. Andrew Melor, Fulvia Orlando Las Conde, Sandra Clark M. Griner. Bonzo Val Love, Francisco Bocock, D.C. karen White, Heidi Riley. Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea. Hodel. Hodel.

[Daily Beast Host]

I think it's Hodel. I think it's Hodel. We've been through this before.

[Michael Wolff]

Devin, Anna, Jesse. Without you, where would we be?

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[Michael Wolff]

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