Why Trump Is Using a Moron to Run His 'War': Wolff

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Daily Beast Podcast

Episode: "Why Trump Is Using a Moron to Run His 'War': Wolff"

Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Michael Wolff
Date: December 7, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the chaos and dysfunction currently engulfing the Trump administration, focusing on Trump’s controversial choice of Pete Hegseth as Secretary of War and the disturbing trend of appointing underqualified, ideologically extreme figures to top governmental posts. Host Joanna Coles and journalist Michael Wolff discuss the military's recent moral and operational crises, RFK Jr.'s anti-vaccine crusade, and the symbolic destruction of the White House East Wing. The conversation is rich with insight, dark humor, and candid (often “spicy”) exchanges.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Military “War” Scandal—The Caribbean Boat Incident

Timestamp: 02:23 – 13:07

• Trump and Pete Hegseth are orchestrating military actions for political spectacle, ignoring complexity and consequences (e.g., an unarmed boat was blown up in the Caribbean, killing suspected drug runners).
• Wolff outlines the traditional civilian-military balance: civilians restrain warriors from impulsive violence; under Trump, this has flipped—the impulsiveness comes from the civilians.
• GOP and Democratic lines are sharply drawn in Congressional response: “Democrats said this was one of the worst things they'd ever seen… Tom Cotton, the Republican, just saying, you know, these are drug dealers…” (Joanna, 11:43).
• The hosts argue that actions like the boat incident undermine military trust in leadership, threaten careers (e.g., Admiral Bradley), and risk U.S. personnel facing war crimes prosecution.
• Hegseth is repeatedly termed an “absolute moron” with “no management experience.” (Michael: “No, back to the moronocracy completely.” – 15:58).

Notable Quotes:

• “These guys very clearly have no fucking idea what they are doing...” (Michael, 13:20)
• “This is just shameful.” (Michael, 13:07)

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2. The Metaphor of Destruction: East Wing in Ruins

Timestamp: 05:15 – 07:59, 44:01 – 48:18

• The physical ruin of the White House's East Wing—described by Michael as “looking like Gaza, just a pile of rubble” (05:27)—serves as a metaphor for the administration’s chaos and destructiveness.
• Trump’s disregard for tradition and regulation in his rebuilding plans: all bravado, empty promises, “nothing arriving to follow.”
• Architect turmoil: James McCrary has stepped down, replaced by Shalom Baranes Associates. Coles and Wolff urge listeners to reach out and demand White House restoration that respects public ownership, not Trump’s personal brand.

Notable Quotes:

• “He's destroyed the White House. Hello. And who wants that on their resume? Except apparently Donald Trump.” (Michael, 45:06)
• “Bad men make bad buildings. Bad buildings make bad men.” (Michael, 47:15)

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3. The Rise of the “Moronocracy”: Pete Hegseth

Timestamp: 15:25 – 16:51

• Hegseth’s incompetence and lack of credentials are dissected with gallows humor.
• Within the military, “they regard him as… an absolute moron” (Joanna, relaying a senior officer’s view, 15:48).
• Hegseth’s podcast appearances with his wife are lampooned, emphasizing his shock at discovering the Defense Department has a budget.

Notable Quote:

• “He has no relevant experience...and on top of that, he's famously just a dope.” (Michael, 15:25)

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4. RFK Jr., Anti-Vax Extremism, and the MAGA Alliance

Timestamp: 20:01 – 32:35

• RFK Jr. is withdrawing hepatitis B vaccines from babies—a move characterized as “dismantling… the foundation of modern health” (Michael, 20:17).
• RFK Jr.’s appointment is portrayed as a pure result of caprice and vanity: “It’s a crazy person named Kennedy who also thinks that he can be President of the United States…” (Michael, 22:23).
• Trump’s rationale: having a “Kennedy” on his team is a power play—Michael imagines Trump boasting, “I have this Kennedy and my Kennedy is now more powerful than all the other Kennedys.” (Michael, 25:30)
• RFK Jr.'s personal baggage (affairs, compulsions) is dissected and connected to his public persona and actions.

Notable Quotes:

• “What has begun here... is dismantling... the foundation of modern health.” (Michael, 20:17)
• “So a crazy man will do crazy things now.” (Michael, 27:05)

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5. Senate Complicity: Joni Ernst, Bill Cassidy, and Political Coercion

Timestamp: 23:07 – 25:13, 39:58 – 43:34

• Key Senators only confirmed Hegseth and RFK Jr. under threat to their political careers. (“You can have this career, or it is very likely you will not be able to stay in the Senate.”—Michael, 24:13)
• The Trump regime forces politicians into impossible bargains, undermining competent governance.

Notable Quote:

• “It undermines everyone, including in this instance, Bill Cassidy, for... reasons that were not entirely terrible.” (Michael, 41:39)

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6. "Ask Melania": Satirical Q&A

Timestamp: 52:03 – 59:00

• Listeners submit cheeky and pointed questions that Michael claims (half-seriously) he’ll ask Melania Trump under oath as part of their ongoing (fictional) litigation.
• Topics include Melania’s supposed interactions with Putin, her relationship with Jared and Ivanka, the language spoken at home, and even a “mushroom statistics” joke referencing Stormy Daniels.
• The segment is irreverent, underscoring the darkly comic absurdity surrounding the Trumps.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Time | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 07:59 | Joanna | “The only thing we can promise is that we're paying attention... and discuss it.” | | 13:07 | Michael | “This is just shameful.” | | 15:48 | Joanna | “Within the military, they regard him as… an absolute moron.” | | 18:46 | Joanna | “The fog of war. And you’re like, hey, we’re not at war.” | | 25:30 | Michael | “I have this Kennedy and my Kennedy is now more powerful than all the other Kennedys.”| | 41:39 | Michael | “It undermines everyone, including... Bill Cassidy...” | | 45:06 | Michael | “He’s destroyed the White House. Hello. And who wants that on their resume?” | | 47:15 | Michael | “Bad men make bad buildings. Bad buildings make bad men.” |

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:23–13:07: Trump’s military misadventures and the Caribbean boat scandal
• 05:15–07:59; 44:01–48:18: East Wing destruction and metaphor for Trump-era chaos
• 15:25–16:51: Dissecting Hegseth’s incompetence
• 20:01–32:35: RFK Jr.'s anti-vax campaign and personal scandals
• 23:07–25:13; 39:58–43:34: Senate confirmations, political threats, and cowardice
• 52:03–59:00: “Ask Melania” Q&A—satirical listener questions

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Tone and Language

The conversation is biting, darkly funny, and conversational—Michael Wolff’s trademark “spiciness” is on display, as he alternates between caustic analysis and gallows humor, with Coles playing both inquisitor and occasional straight woman.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a scathing and entertaining critique of the Trump White House’s ongoing dysfunction, highlighting how the installation of underqualified, ideologically driven figures like Pete Hegseth and RFK Jr. threatens institutional norms and public welfare. The physical and moral chaos at the highest levels of government is dissected with sharp wit, leaving listeners with both a sense of disbelief and grim recognition of current political realities.

Transcript

[Michael]

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[Joanna]

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[Michael]

These guys, Hegseth and Trump are not engaging in the extremely complex combat decisions related to, for instance, Ukraine. I mean, that is a difficult situation. A situation which requires some attention of these attention deficit guys. Whereas bombing an unarmed small boat in the middle of the sea in which nothing is at stake other than the lives of some of some purported drug couriers I mean, this is just shameful.

[Joanna]

Michael.

[Michael]

Joanna.

[Joanna]

Michael. So many comments commenting on your spiciness. People saying, I love Michael when he's spicy.

[Michael]

What does spicy mean, do you think?

[Joanna]

I think it means that you're kind of.

You know. I think it means we're getting into it, but spicy was the word.

[Michael]

Does it mean prickly or does it mean funny?

[Joanna]

I think it means spicy as in a spicy pepper or chili flakes on your pizza.

[Michael]

I get that. I'm just trying to translate that into human behavior and not food. We're. We're looking to.

[Joanna]

I think it means on the cusp of possibly throwing a hissy fit.

[Michael]

To. At you.

[Joanna]

At me? Yes, totally.

[Michael]

And then something. I've been on that cusp for years and years and years. I've gone over. I've gone over that.

[Joanna]

You've certainly gone over that. You've certainly gotten over that over the years. I know. I wish I kept better diaries because. Because as we've mentioned before.

[Michael]

Do you keep any diaries?

[Joanna]

I keep. I keep intermittent diaries. I keep notes on things. And I have thousands of thousands and thousands of notes. But I wish I. More notes on our feuds.

[Michael]

They may be subpoenaed.

[Joanna]

They may be subpoenaed. I think that I might have notes on a feud we have. I think over. We had an argument about who was the best tailor on Savile Row.

[Michael]

Is that possible that was some other person, some other podcaster you were having?

[Joanna]

No, I think it was you. I think it was you. I think. I think it was you. Anyway, it doesn't matter so much to get to. If you need a vaccine, you should run out and get it today because they may no longer be available. Michael's friend, RFK Jr. Who he went can canvassing with, or you were writing about him, he was desperately canvassing for his uncle in 1980. He's out there trying to deny people access to vaccines.

[Michael]

No. This becomes increasingly disturbing, but increasingly a stranger and stranger story. So let's come back to that.

[Joanna]

All right, we'll come back to it because we also want to talk about the changing of the architects. No surprise there on the east wing, which.

People actually liked. Your description of the east wing looking like Gaza, just a pile of rubble.

[Michael]

It really is vivid, that whole thing that. I mean, it just hangs out there. All those wires, that concrete, the. Everything broken.

Which is actually what a building looks like when it has sustained the direction. A direct hit from.

[Joanna]

A missile or from an enemy. From an enemy. A missile or an enemy. And yet the enemy Is within, very possibly. So, yes, the physical manifestation of the Trump administration's chaos. It couldn't be a better metaphor.

[Michael]

Well, and destructiveness, I mean, I think that's. I mean, that's the thing that we are seeing, I think, on an increasingly basis, let's just, you know, just, you know, fuck it and blow it up.

[Joanna]

Yeah. And then nothing to follow, promises of what's to follow, and yet nothing arriving.

[Michael]

That will be the interesting thing, actually, if they do ever get something built, because it is also not impossible at all that this will be, like many construction projects, stalled for all kinds of reasons. Remember, the premise here, the Donald Trump premise, is I can do anything. I can do this. This is my property. I own this. We can do it. There are no regulations. Well, we'll see.

[Joanna]

We will see. But should we start with another scene of chaos, the Caribbean and these little boats?

[Michael]

Although, let me say you sent me.

A comment from a commenter who criticized me saying, we'll see.

[Joanna]

That's right.

[Michael]

Which I had.

Somewhat of a difficult comprehending because we will see. We don't know. I mean, that's, That's. We look at these events of the moment, and it is impossible to tell. Will this ballroom be built? Will, won't it be built? Yeah, I could go either way.

[Joanna]

There are many ways that you could criticize us, but you saying we'll see doesn't feel like the right thing.

[Michael]

I mean, it seems like. I mean, actually, people are always saying, what's going to happen? I think you should say, well, we have no idea. Idea what's going to happen. This is the world of. This is the world of Donald Trump. This is a world in which everything changes every day.

[Joanna]

Every day. The only thing we can promise is that we're paying attention to it and we are going to discuss it. And you're going to bring your specific experience, writing and thinking about my spiciness, your spiciness, to the Trump chaos that's going on. All right, shall we start with the developments? We're recording this on Friday morning, developments yesterday, where the Armed Services Committee sat around and watched the video. The video I'm talking about of the. Of the blowing up of the boat, of the two survivors, the video of the. Of.

[Michael]

Of the moment. And I mean, I think the context here is. Is.

Is kind of elemental and, you know, which is that we have always considered that the military would be run by men of a certain disposition and, and point of view who needed to be restrained.

You know, essentially they were warriors and, and there were all kinds of reasons not to go to war. There was all kinds of reasons that if you saw the grander picture, to restrain that instinct. You want people who can go to war. If you need to go to you, the last thing you want to do is always go to war. So therefore you had a civilian authority that was in charge of these, of these, of, of, of these kinds of people and that instinct to, to always pull the trigger. But, and I think it has seldom been contemplated that that balance would be wholly turned around, that, that you would have the military as.

Rules, rules bound.

Experts, highly skilled in, in, in what they do, what they do.

Very knowledgeable about the, and attentive to the nuances of, of these kinds of very combustible situations.

And them being run by people who are just, you know, off the beam who have no comprehension of what's at stake here, who are just the macho guys who want to do the macho war. You know.

I'm a big guy kind.

[Joanna]

Of thing and playing it all for the cameras too. And this sort of, the thing I find extraordinary is this sort of posing around going, we've got Admiral Bradley's back, as if somehow he's the one that's made the error, but they're going to support him anyway when we know that this was Hegseth's command. Don't leave anybody floating in the water. And clearly, I mean, it's also distressing how I guess inevitably the reaction fell down party lines. So the Democrats said this was one of the worst things they'd ever seen. These tragic figures floating around clutching to bits of wreckage in the sea, unclear how they were going to get out of the situation. And then Tom Cotton, the Republican, just saying, just, you know, these are drug dealers. They're terrible people. Get rid of them instead of their pathetic drug meals trying to supplement a meager fishing income.

[Michael]

Well, that may or may not be true.

[Joanna]

Well, the truth is we don't know. Right. We didn't bother to find out.

[Michael]

They are in the drug business. So I don't, we don't necessarily have to suddenly romanticize them. And, but, you know, and Tom Cotton is just saying what he would, what again has to say to keep his job. So we're, we're in this, in, we're in, that's a, that's a fixed situation. But I think the broader context here is what really bears some attention. And you know, in other words, these, these guys, Heg and Trump are not engaging in the extremely complex combat decisions related to, for instance, Ukraine. I mean, that's a, that is a difficult situation. A situation which, which requires some attention of these attention deficit guys. Whereas, whereas, you know, bombing, bombing a boat with an unarmed boat, an unarmed small boat in the middle of the sea in which nothing is at stake other than the lives of some of some purported drug couriers. I mean.

This is just shameful.

[Joanna]

Well, there is something at stake because it turns out Admiral Bradley's career may be at stake here. I mean, in theory, you don't think anything is going to be in stake, but these things always have knock on impact PACs, right?

[Michael]

Yes. No, from a strategic. There is nothing from a strategic stake. There is from a political stake and there is from. For these guys. And that is the next step of this, is to understand that what Higseth and Trump are doing is undermining the military's trust in them for, for good reasons. I mean, these guys very clearly have no fucking idea what they are doing and what they are doing. I mean, and stop. Let's, let's understand this. I don't care what Tom Cotton is saying, because everybody knows that what they are doing, Hegseth and Trump is creating a situation which is going to mean all of these guys are going to be hauled before Congress if, if not dragged off to the Hague. This is not good for anybody's careers in the military, certainly. So, I mean, the curse, the curse of these guys, these guys who have worked their careers, risen through the ranks to assume command positions.

You know, and they have worked hard for these jobs. These jobs are, you know, most people don't get them.

And to find yourself having gotten this job in Donald Trump's army is a.

I guess is.

Ironic, but it really is tragic.

[Joanna]

No, it is tragic. I was just actually speaking with someone who was very senior in the military, who'd worked with Admiral Bradley and said that he very much hoped and he thought it was unlikely that he would have bombed the boat twice because he would know that was wrong.

It looks like Pete Hegseth gave that order. And you must be in a very difficult position when you've got the second most important person in the US Telling you to do something.

[Michael]

Yeah, no, and just again, the context, what we know of Pete Hegseth, he's an alcoholic, he's a lightweight. He has no relevant experience to this job, no management experience whatsoever in any field of endeavor. And on top of that, he's famously just a dope.

[Joanna]

Yeah. I mean, the person I was talking to said that within the military, they regard him as, to use your word, an absolute moron. An absolute moron.

[Michael]

No, back to the moronocracy completely.

[Joanna]

And also he did a podcast this week with his wife, which seems to be the new thing that they're doing now.

After Mike Johnson and his wife did one, Pete Hegseth did one with his wife. And he was asked the question, what most surprised you about becoming the defense, you know, the Secretary of War, I should say, as he calls himself now. And he said, oh, it was sort of the budget. It was figuring out there was a budget and that there were sort of limitations on spending. And you just thought, really, that's what surprised you. You're taking over the biggest military department in the world and was surprised there was a budget. And this is a man who's failed to manage a budget at two veteran organizations he worked for.

[Michael]

It would be really interesting and it will be. I mean, we're not, this won't happen immediately, but in, in the, when all of this passes, it will. To actually get a candid picture of what the, what the leadership thinks, of what the experience of being in the leadership and having to deal with Pete Hegseth is. I'm going to wait for that one. And to deal with Donald Trump. I mean, you know, I have seen, seen these things and I remember Bannon would describe this with, with, with great mirth that when the, that when the generals would come in, in front of Trump and begin a PowerPoint presentation, that Trump would last top 90 seconds. Couldn't do it, couldn't do the details.

[Joanna]

I remember you saying that. And the person I was talking to said actually that when you explained the life and death nature to Trump, he would actually take it quite seriously. There was a life and death decision. He would sort of listen with his head cocked on one side. But clearly there have been many shameful episodes in the military over the, you know, certainly Abu Ghraib and various things that happened in Iraq. And this feels like another one to add to the list.

[Michael]

Yeah, I'm trying to think if that is on that list because I think what is unique about this is that it is so one sided. It is a series of one sided decisions coming from the civilian authority that are patently wrong, that everyone can see are wrong. This is not the fog of war, as.

Pete Hague said.

[Joanna]

Pete Hager, no. He seemed so excited to say that. The fog of war. The fog of war. And you're like, hey, we're not at war.

[Michael]

This isn't war. This is, this is.

A demonstration of something. We're going to kill these people to show that we can kill these people.

[Joanna]

It's also not a movie. I mean, the fog of war is the kind of line that Gene Hackman would say and you would think to yourself, the fog of war, how awful. But Pete Hegseth saying it just sounds like a terrible excuse for an ill thought out policy that has absolutely no rhyme or reason.

[Michael]

You know, it was also a weird cover because again, there is no war. I mean this was a.

This wasn't a situation in which there are, there are conflicting issues in which there wasn't even really an enemy. It wasn't as if you were confronting another force that you had to, you had to deal with in split second decisions. I mean you're just. With a drone bombing, an unarmed. Let's go, let's. An unarmed small craft.

[Joanna]

That's crazy. All right. Also crazy to withdraw hepatitis B vaccines from babies.

[Michael]

Yeah. Extraordinary. And you know, what has begun here and what.

RFK Jr is doing is dismantling, you know, essentially the foundation of modern health.

[Joanna]

With no scientific logic whatsoever.

[Michael]

You know, obviously with no scientific, I mean it's, this is, I mean we know where the science is. We know where the, we know what, what, what, what advances modern medicine has produced. We know that our children are safe and protected because of this. And so we are removing this. Why? And there are a couple of reasons and they all mostly go to.

RFK himself. Although.

An understanding that there is a, you know, a strange anti science movement in this country which has a political, which has intersected with a lot of, a lot of politics. Okay, put that to its side. That exists.

You know, and there are, there are a lot of bad politics that, that, that exists. And if you go down that, that, that route. Well, you know, we hope that there are, it's like, it's like with, with, with the military. You don't want to go down the, the, the route of extremes. So suddenly we have a guy who is. With enormous power, enormous power who is committed to extremes. And I think a question is, what's going on here? How, how did this come to happen? And it came to happen because his name is Kennedy. He is personally really crazy off the beam.

So it's a crazy person named Kennedy who also thinks that he can be President of the United States. And the way for him to be the President of the United States is to solidify this MAGA base, the anti vax base, which for whatever reasons has become.

In, in partly because of his efforts has become of a very pronounced and I don't want to say powerful because I'm not, not sure it is powerful, except for RFK Jr. But certainly a pronounced strain in American political life.

[Joanna]

So I've got so many questions about him. I mean, in terms of Hegseth, Joni Ernst was the sort of swing vote. Was she going to vote for Hegseth or not? She was very doubtful. And then for some reason that we're not sure about, she finally agreed to go with Hegseth. And JD Vance cast the deciding vote. Similarly with RFK Jr we have Bill Cassidy, the senator from Louisiana, who is a doctor who's spent his life trying to help liver patients.

Who also was very reluctant to confirm RFK Jr. But they met and the Kennedy charm or whatever persuaded him that he should give him a chance.

[Michael]

I don't think that that's correct. What they were persuaded of, what both Ernst and Cassidy were persuaded by is essentially they were given a choice. You can have this career, you can stay in the Senate, or it is very likely you will not be able to stay in the Senate.

[Joanna]

Right. You'll get primaried.

[Michael]

You just have a choice. You gotta, you gotta make it. Do you want to go down on this? And I think in hindsight, they may both say now, yeah, we should have gone down on this. But, but in with, without hindsight, you say, well, maybe it won't be so bad. I mean, there's all kinds of ways you can rationalize, rationalize this. But they had literally no choice. That was it. The. So you could. I mean, the interesting thing is, why would the Trump administration have gone to the mat for these guys?

[Joanna]

Right? Right.

[Michael]

But I think that's. As soon as I ask it, that's the wrong question, because as soon as they have put up these ridiculous figures, they had to defend them, otherwise it would be clear they were ridiculous figures that they had, that they had put up. Now they are ridiculous figures, and we are, we are reaping the results of these ridiculous figures.

[Joanna]

So, Michael, what's going on inside Donald Trump's head when he hears that RFK Jr. Is going to pull hepatitis B vaccines from babies? Trump, we know, has his kids vaccinated. He's crazy, but he's not that crazy.

[Michael]

No, no, but he's, but he has a profound lack of, in things that don't interest him. And, you know, from, I mean, he's not interested. I mean, vaccines don't, don't really come into his, his personal sphere of, of, of concern. Plus, plus the fact that, you know, he's got this guy. I mean, he got. Why is Bobby Kennedy Jr. In this position because his name is Kennedy. So it does nothing to do with, with, with, with vaccines. So from Donald Trump's point of view, I have this Kennedy. And this is even more sort of complex because it's, it's like I have this guy named, named Kennedy. I own the name Kennedy. At the same time, all the other Kennedys are saying what a horrible person I am, so fuck them, because I have a Kennedy and my Kennedy is now more powerful than all of the other Kennedys. So I can give this to you. This is exactly how Donald Trump thinks.

[Joanna]

Oh, my goodness, it's so great.

[Michael]

And the fact that there are vaccines, you know, I mean, that has an added benefit because these MAGA people are crazy on the subject and he has to keep them happy.

[Joanna]

And to what extent is this also because Bobby Kennedy has been in the news because of his digital affair with Olivia Nuzzi, whose book we discussed, American Canto, is out this week. Do you think he's in any way trying to shift, shift the narrative away from himself in that regard?

[Michael]

Well, I, I don't, I mean, this was all scheduled beforehand, so, you know, I'm not, I'm not sure. But how he gets away with that, you know, I guess you get away with it because it built into the understanding of this guy is that he's crazy. So a crazy man will do crazy things now. But we do have this other thing which will be interesting is that his wife Cheryl Hines's book is coming out shortly. So, you know, in the way of scandals, you know, scandals are, you know, really, really come about through a strange combustion. Will we have that combustion here? Two memoirs by two Kennedy lovers, wives, whatever, at the same time. But again, I don't think so because it's, it's, it's, it's baked in. It's, It's. Bobby Kennedy Jr. A drug addict, a womanizer. Womanizer, or, you know, just a compulsive.

You know, over the top philanderer and fucker. So this is all, this is all evidence. Everybody knows this. So therefore it's not as if you're telling anyone anything new.

[Joanna]

Right. One of the things that did sound interesting, either I read through Olivia's an interview she'd done, or perhaps it was in an excerpt of the book, was this sort of frenzy he had to.

How does one put this? A sexual frenzy. He had a compulsion, clearly, to climax. And then, and immediately that had happened this wash of Catholic guilt which he then blamed on her and said, you made me do this. This is, you know, you're a bad person. And that a very, very strange relationship with sex.

[Michael]

Oh, that's, that's juicy.

[Joanna]

It's also a sort of Catholic interpretation of sex. That you want something and then the minute you've had it, you feel terrible about yourself. And he had this sort of weird remorse which she then blamed on her that she was the wicked woman who tried to seduce him and he'd fallen and been weak.

[Michael]

Let me ask. This was digital sex.

[Joanna]

I think it was FaceTime sex.

[Michael]

This was not in person.

[Joanna]

My understanding of it is. And perhaps I even read this in Ryan Liz's thing. The whole. The ex fiance of Olivia Nuzzi, who's got his own version of this, of this bizarre story going on on his substack. Maybe that's where I read it. And he'd taken it from Olivia's diaries or whatever.

But I mean, bizarre. And he used to refer to his sexual proclivities and activities which he chronicled in a book which actually I've seen a copy of the. The Sex Diary as his muddings. And that he was sort of demonized by sex, which is something that you had pointed out when you were on the campaign trail with him, that he would disappear and have sex and then come back and join the crowd.

[Michael]

I mean, there's all kinds of ways I think you can, you can take pity on this guy. I mean this is a life hoot which no one would want. The. I mean the thing that we are, however left with is that, is that this, this, you know, this clear sense that he has of unmet expectations that he has to somehow, somehow deliver this thing that he is being forced. It's like sex probably is being forced worse than the sex because of the compulsion. He's, he's now being forced to be something.

Something which he, he, he failed at or was denied for his entire life from. Remember, Bobby Kennedy Jr. Is 72 years old. Up until basically two years ago, he hasn't done the thing. He has achieved nothing in life in certainly nothing against the expectations, but basically nothing anyway. You know.

And, and so, and so with this weird conjunction of this anti vax thing that he, that he, that he came to the only thing that really ever got him attention, public attention, other than his own drug addiction. The confluence of that with Donald Trump in the summer of 2024 is the thing that just has now transformed him into one of the most powerful people in.

In, in American lives today. So this is all again, completely.

Completely makes, Makes no sense. There is no logic here, except, except Caprice happenstance.

Nothing. This is how we live now. You don't know what's going to happen. So. Mr. We'll see. We will see because we cannot predict this. You could not possibly.

In any imagination have predicted the rise of Bobby Kennedy Jr. Ridiculous.

[Joanna]

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[Michael]

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[Joanna]

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[Michael]

And we are back inside Trump's head.

[Joanna]

I like to go back to his financer in his campaign to be president because we, you know, as we remember, he actually ran to be president himself. And he was financed by a woman called Nicole Shanahan, who is herself very skeptical about vaccines, whose money came from her divorce from Sergey Brin herself, who.

[Michael]

Is very skeptical, I thought you were gonna say who herself is very sketchy, which also would be true.

[Joanna]

And her money, nearly a billion dollars as we understand it, came from her divorce settlement, from a brief marriage to Sergey Brin. And why did the marriage break up? Because of an alleged affair with Elon Musk. I mean, again, these char all swirling in their own chaos. I mean it's just bizarre. And she met Sergey Brin when she was on a bachelorette weekend about to get married. She gets married. Her marriage lasts I think 27 days. She walks away with a Toyota Prius from the wedding. That's the settlement from the wedding. Because her husband discovers she's been having an affair with Sergey Brin. She gets married to Sergey.

[Michael]

Sergey Brin was the, she was having an affair with him during her first.

[Joanna]

Marriage, her 27 day marriage. And so she then marries Sergey Brin, the co founder of Google, whose motto was do no evil. And with her divorce settlement from Sergey Brin because he's discovered that she's become friendly with Elon Musk. She then finances a man who's going to end up taking vaccines out of American life.

[Michael]

And do we think that she had an affair with him?

[Joanna]

With Elon Musk?

[Michael]

No. With Bobby Kennedy Jr.

We have no reason to believe that. There are no one in saying that.

[Joanna]

Absolutely. I've no idea. I've no idea. And what he had promised her was that she would be his vice president, which was apparently a deal struck up while when he and Cheryl.

[Michael]

Yes, but that's an interesting, an interesting thing because obviously even, even.

You know, even for a sketchy person, she would know that was not going to happen. So what else was she getting out of that?

[Joanna]

I don't think she did know that was what was going to happen.

[Michael]

It's not possible, it's not possible that, that she would think that Bobby Kennedy Jr. A third party candidate in a country that has never elected a third party candidate, was in this one with limited financing and limited anything against Donald Trump, of all people. And.

Joe Biden, who was then thought to be fairly a strong candidate was going to be the actually get to be president. So she could not have have thought that.

[Joanna]

But I think it's absolutely plausible that she financed him thought with the Kennedy name that he could just become the president and she would be vice president because partly, you know.

[Michael]

Oh, for sure.

[Joanna]

They live in a bubble. They live in a bubble. Of course, it's highly unlikely.

[Michael]

No, no. But nobody could live in, in that, that much of a bubble.

[Joanna]

I think she was in that much of a bubble. I have no idea if they were having an affair. What I do know is that at a dinner with Cheryl Hines, Nicole Shanahan and her then boyfriend, it was the boyfriend, I think fiance who suggested that she would be a good vice president.

[Michael]

At any rate, where we are and how we have gotten here defies all natural logic and cause and effect. But the result is, and the result, because there is no logic and there is no, there is no cause and effect is that something is being done that is, that defies all reason, which is to curtail vaccines which have demonstrably transformed the nature of modern life for the better.

[Joanna]

Well, Senator Bill Cassidy, shame on you for being seduced by Kennedy and thinking that your career in the Senate was more important than the lives of American children.

[Michael]

I'm thinking how to respond to that because I always want to push back against these kind of.

[Joanna]

You always want to push back against me?

[Michael]

Yeah, of course. Well, you're the only person I have to push back against against, so.

[Joanna]

But that's a good thing then. That's. I have lots of people I have to push back against.

[Michael]

You know, I mean, I'm, I.

[Joanna]

You.

[Michael]

Know, I'm thinking, you know, what, what would, what would anyone, what would I do if I had been in Bill Cassidy's shoes?

[Joanna]

You would have walked away. You would have walked away.

[Michael]

You know, I'm not sure, I'm not sure you would. You, you actually are in these jobs, jobs you think that you are. You're going to be able to do something. You think. You know, a lot of these guys, I mean, some of these guys are, are, are obviously completely cynical, but Bill Cassidy does not seem to be one of those, those people. He thinks I can do some good here. But the terms of doing good is that you have to stay in your job. And, and the terms of staying in your job is that you have to, you, you have to negotiate what you do with Donald Trump. Now, obviously, I agree that this is all a catastrophe, and, but just thinking personally, what wouldn't. What one would do. So the issue and this goes to the whole construct of the, of, of the, of the Trump regime. It.

You know, it undermines everyone, including in this instance, Bill Cassidy, for, you know, for reasons that were not entirely terrible. That's my defense of Bill Cassidy.

[Joanna]

Okay. And I think, you know, Bill, I mean, there's no Senate equivalent of the Hippocratic oath, is there? You, do you swear, do you swear allegiance to the Constitution?

[Michael]

Politics? You know, you're always making trade offs. You know, that person's going to die to save these people or something like that.

[Joanna]

Well, it had been better off going to try and run the CDC or something, but. And also, I mean, what kind of a politician doesn't have confidence that they can withstand being primaried by, you know, crazy far right people?

[Michael]

It's Donald Trump, you know, I mean, what, what politician does not have confidence that he can withstand the extremes and craziness of Donald Trump? Well, I'll tell you what kind of politician. All of them, certainly all of the Republicans, every last one of them. That is, that is the nature of, of the nature of the current state of American democracy. We've elected this guy who will stop at nothing. Boom. How do you deal with that? You know, you hope that it will pass.

[Joanna]

Well, we know it will pass. And there have been.

[Michael]

Well, we don't know it will pass. We know, we know. I mean, Donald Trump will pass. He will.

You know, he, he, he will eggs, he will exit. But what does he leave in his wake? What kind of, what, chaos in his system. And he leaves this broken stuff. Yeah. So all of the assumptions that once we counted on are now up for grabs.

[Joanna]

Okay, this is such a cheerful conversation to be having. All right, do we want to discuss the fact that James McCrary, the architect of the East Wing, who is supposed to be involved in rebuilding it, seems to have, as the phrase is these days, stepped back from the project, much in the way that Larry Summers has stepped back from his duties at Harvard.

[Michael]

He has literally left the building, although the building is no longer there.

[Joanna]

The building's no longer there. And as we said before, what a metaphor for the chaos of Trump's administration. A pile of rubble that looks like a war zone.

[Michael]

Yeah. So the question is, is this is, you know, Donald Trump, who went into this project, as he goes into so many, saying, I can do anything I want because I'm the President United States and I'm Donald Trump and fuck you.

Is the worm turning there? Are there people saying, you know.

You know, hold on, and there are ways that we can slow this down. And there are ways that we can.

Make trouble for Donald Trump.

And, you know, I mean, I think one of the things that has clearly gone on here is this has become quite a symbol in kind of an unavoidable symbol for the American public. He's destroyed the White House. Hello.

And.

Who wants that on their resume? Except apparently Donald Trump.

[Joanna]

The plans haven't been approved. We don't even know what the plans are. The things is changing. It's gone from being a ballroom that seated, I think, 700 people to now he wants it to seat 1300 people.

[Michael]

65,000. Yes.

[Joanna]

Yeah, exactly. They want to have Trump convention centers at the White House and they'll sell merch.

[Michael]

No, you know, I think that he was. I saw something in which he was talking about having the, you know, you know, the political conventions at the White.

[Joanna]

House and also the inauguration. Right. That he wants it big enough to have the inauguration because he probably knows he'll never get another crowd.

[Michael]

Who is the new architect?

[Joanna]

James McCrary Associates has been replaced by Shalom Baranas Associates, which does a lot of government work, has worked with the gsa.

[Michael]

Okay, so let's. Everybody should get in touch with Sharam Baroness.

[Joanna]

Shalom Baroness.

[Michael]

And tell him that he's a Trump patsy and does he really want to have the wreck of the White House on his resume? But let's call him up and ask.

[Joanna]

Him what people could do is also reach out and say what they would like to happen to the White House because it is the people's house. I mean, I think one of the things that so irritated people about this project is Donald Trump is a, as you pointed out, telling people he can do anything. But this is not his property. This is not private property. It is the property of the American people. Ring Shalom Baronet and give them directions of what you would like the White House to look like.

[Michael]

Do we have an email for the brothers?

[Joanna]

We have.

Brothers. We know that they're brothers. Inquiries, as Americans say. Inquiries, as I say I N Q U I R I e [e-mail] so that's s B A R A N E S. And then we should try and have him on the podcast.

[Michael]

I think people should be. I mean, I've always thought that architects should be responsible for the buildings that they. That they put up. Bad men make bad buildings. Bad buildings make bad men. So let's.

[Joanna]

Did you just come up with that? Did you just suddenly invent that aphorism?

[Michael]

That's famous.

[Joanna]

Oh, it is. Okay. It's Famous.

[Michael]

Famous.

[Joanna]

Famous to you? I, I'd not heard that, but I. It's a good one. And what about good men? Good men make good buildings and good buildings make good men.

[Michael]

Exactly right.

[Joanna]

We have to focus on the positive and it's. It's possible that Shalom Bar owners may come up with a. A fabulous building which fits perfectly with the scale.

[Michael]

But he won't because he is really, he is just the lackey and the patsy. Here it. Donald Trump is the architect. This is Donald Trump's moment of grandiosity. I mean, we know. I mean, he's building a Trump building. This is not. We have seen many. And if you live in New York, you know the curse of Trump buildings.

[Joanna]

Okay, Michael. Michael, be quiet. We're going to take a break. For our advertisers.

[Michael]

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[Michael]

Oh, who's there?

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[Joanna]

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[Michael]

So the knock knock was just you knocking?

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And we are back.

[Joanna]

It's also such an angry gesture just to demolish the East Wing. So symbolic, because that's of course where your friend Melania Trump had her office. And it's just the rubble of it is so disturbing. Even as a metaphor, it's disturbing, but.

[Michael]

Also just functionally, it is disturbing. They're going to put up. I mean, the White House is what it is and it exists that way because for, for, for history has made it exist that way. For better or worse, in Donald Trump's view, for worse, you know, when he came into the White House in 2017, you know, he spent the first year stamping around and saying what a dump that is what American history has wanted it to be. And now to assume that you can and upend that, denude that, destroy that is not just arrogance, but some.

[Joanna]

You.

[Michael]

Know, I think some we can say it's profoundly anti American.

[Joanna]

Profoundly anti American. Okay. There will be comments saying that all I do is repeat what you say, but that's a very important line given what's going on.

So, Michael, we come to that part of the podcast where we have some questions for you. Do you want to remind people?

[Michael]

Yeah, and just the background, this is the Ask Melania segment and we are asking Melania things because I am in litigation with the first lady and I have, she threatened to sue me, but before she could do that, I have, have sued her. And actually, I think next week we will have my lawyers tell me we will have some.

Some pertinent information, pertinent developments in the case. So stay tuned for that. But at any rate, we are also soliciting questions which I will be able to ask the first lady under oath in a deposition.

[Joanna]

So.

[Michael]

Fire away. I'm eager to hear the questions we have for today. But, but, but everybody else, keep them, Keep them coming.

[Joanna]

Okay, so here's a question from Leslie Evans. Question for Melania. How did she get direct access to Putin and describe every single interaction she has had with the Russians?

[Michael]

Good. That's a good question, I think. And I think curiously, the. This may go back for some time and there, There may be something here. Thanks. Good.

[Joanna]

Okay, here is a question. Does Donald speak any Czech or Slovene? If so, how did they talk? Communicate when even now the first lady is far from fluent in English and has an atrocious accent, making it hard to understand her?

[Michael]

You know, my understanding is that he. He does. Does not, and was often irritated when she spoke with her parents, with whom. With whom she has lived for in the United States for many years.

[Joanna]

Okay, that was from Hugo Green. And I think she and Baron speak in Slovenian, don't they?

[Michael]

I. I don't know this for a fact, but yes, I've heard that.

[Joanna]

I've heard that too. And I don't know if it's fair to say she has an atrocious accent. Because. Because it's not atrocious. Not my accent. Not atrocious. Be best. Be best accent. It's just a. It's just an. A foreign accent.

All right.

[Michael]

It's. It's noon in Amaganzet.

[Joanna]

Is that what that noise is? What is that? Is it a ship's horn? It sounds like a huge naval, you know, aircraft carrier is coming into the bay.

[Michael]

It does, but it is less romantic. It is just the fire at the firehouse.

[Joanna]

Small town America, Michael. Small town America where you walk around. People, by the way, commented in the hundreds about your refusal to learn to drive. They very much like the fact that you live in a place where you can stroll to the coffee. Coffee shop.

[Michael]

Speaking of anti American. Yes, I seem to be.

[Joanna]

That's very anti American, but at least you can walk to the bus stop. Okay. Susie Q would like you to ask Melania how she really feels about Jared and Ivanka.

[Michael]

Susie Q. Susie Q?

[Joanna]

Seriously? Susie Q. Susie Q. 1,170.

She wants to know how Melania feels about Jared Ivanka.

So you could ask her about their relationship.

[Michael]

Yes, we will have to rephrase that question slightly, but yes.

[Joanna]

And then a cheeky question here that you may not want to ask, but it's from Irene Perkins. I have a question for Melania about mushroom statistics. Was Stormy accurate?

You may not want to ask Melania that.

Be Best mushroom. Be best mushroom.

[Michael]

Okay, well, we'll. We'll consider. I. It's my. I can see my lawyer's already blushing.

[Joanna]

And then this is from Minta Elder.

What does Melania do with all her time? And is Baron living at the White House? There's certainly a mystery about where Barron's living.

[Michael]

No, we've discussed that question before. It is.

It is.

There's some curious transaction behind the scenes here. He was in school in New York. He's not in school in New York now. He's in school in Washington, but we don't know exactly what school.

[Joanna]

Well, I think he stayed at NYU, didn't he? And NYU has a D.C. campus, and he's supposed to be there, but he hasn't been spotted.

[Michael]

Do they have a date? Dc? What does that mean? They have a DC Campus?

[Joanna]

Perhaps he's working remotely.

[Michael]

Yeah, I don't know. But that's just these. I mean, I've heard this at the DC Camp. They have a DC Campus.

[Joanna]

Well, they have. They have campuses in Shanghai. They have campuses in Dubai. I mean, they have campuses everywhere.

[Michael]

Let's not go overboard with the word campus.

[Joanna]

Well, I think he's working from a back bedroom in the White House somewhere on Zoom.

[Michael]

It does seem that he is not going to school where he was going to school.

[Joanna]

So it's odd that we haven't seen videos of him on the D.C. campus from other students, because we did. We did see that at nyu.

[Michael]

Yeah, I'm gonna say, because, I mean, where is this D.C. campus?

[Joanna]

I've never.

[Michael]

NYU.

[Joanna]

Absolutely no idea. Okay, so Sandy Faros has sent us a note saying most of the Melania questions are irrelevant and will be struck down.

[Michael]

What? What a party pooper.

[Joanna]

I know. Total party pooper. And then Leonard, 2779 says, I cannot even begin to say how excited I am at the thought of a beast watch party for the Melania Netflix dog. Actually, it's an Amazon dog. Please do whatever you need to do to make this happen happen. So we have to figure out. We're going to ask our producers how we can do that. So we can switch on the moment it drops and have beast. Or we can do a live. We should do a YouTube live the moment it drops. Commenting on it. We could certainly do that.

[Michael]

Yeah. Can we. No. No. Yeah, we're gonna. Anyway, we have to figure it out.

[Joanna]

We'll figure it out, but we will do something.

[Michael]

End of January. Just.

[Joanna]

It's the end of January. Very exciting. I will cancel all travel to make sure that I'm available to comment live on the Melania documentary and Brett Ratner's great work. Brett Bratton are gearing up for number four, Fast and Furious or whatever he does. Is it the Fast and Furious?

[Michael]

No, it's something else.

[Joanna]

But rush hour, is it rush hour? Rush hour. Is it rush hour? It is.

[Michael]

Very good.

[Joanna]

I think it involves a car chase. Brett Ratner, good for you for coming out of your. Me too. Period. So shame on Bill Cassidy and shame on Joni Ernst. Joni Ernst is now stepping back. She's, she's no longer going to run for re election, so it wouldn't have mattered if she was primaried anyway. And Joni Ernst is the person that gave us Pete Hexseth. So thanks, Joanie. Thanks for that.

[Michael]

I, I'm not defending her.

[Joanna]

Okay.

[Michael]

Well, I could, I could rouse myself.

[Joanna]

I could defend her, but you know. Disappointing. Disappointing.

What are you doing for the weekend?

[Michael]

You know, in, in our small town, there are a, a relentless pace of Christmas pre Christmas activities. So I will be.

Grumpily participating in some of them.

[Joanna]

What are they, like little candle lit processions?

[Michael]

Yes, exactly. Things get lit. There is the, the, the tractor lighting. What tractor? Tractor lighting? Well, there's a long lineup of tractors on the nearby farm which they, then, then they light, they light them. They're, they're covered with, with lights and they, they actually have an, when it's dark, there's an outline of a tractor. It's kind of.

It'S kind of inexplicable, actually.

[Joanna]

It's kind of fabulous. I, I think you're going to get asked to put on a red hat and a beard and be the Santa and you'll have to sit on the. There's always a fire. Isn't there a fire truck parade near Christmas?

[Michael]

You know, they don't ask Jews to do that, thank God.

[Joanna]

When I moved to New York, Richard Dreyfuss, the actor, lived in the apartment above us. And there was always a lobby Christmas party. And Richard would play Santa and the children would sit on his knee and, and he'd say to them, have you ever seen a Jewish lantern before? And the children would look bewildered at him and he would go, ho, ho, ho, and scratch his beard and then they would skip off.

[Michael]

Yes, well, that's what happens to out of work actors.

[Joanna]

Well, two, he had two Oscars. I would think, to my children, you're very lucky that the Santa in our lobby Christmas party has two Oscars.

[Michael]

That's going to have two Oscars and still be out of work.

[Joanna]

I think he was doing it voluntarily. It wasn't a job. It wasn't like we'd hired.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I know. I get it.

[Joanna]

All right, all right. Okay. You're. You're verging on irascible. So it's time to go. It's time for more coffee. Don't forget, if you would like to come and see Michael and me live, we'll be at the 92nd Street Y on January 21st. I think we have very few tickets.

[Michael]

Left, actually, the day after the first anniversary of the. The second Trump administration.

[Joanna]

Good ad. Good ad. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Peace podcast. We are almost at 500, 000 subscribers, which is an incredible achievement. So help push us over the edge. Join the beast tier of our community and get all sorts of extra access to Michael. Perhaps he will even take you on the tractor lighting tour in. In the Hamptons. What else, Michael? Leave a comment on YouTube and I'm going to give a shout out to our BB tier members. Sandra Clark, methinks Travels with Carl. Andrew Beaver Capinator Harry Clark, Dawn McCarthy, Daniel dog lover M. Griner, Fulvia Orlando Herbie Andrew Mellor, Las Conde Bonzo, Val La Francis Cisco, Heidi Riley, Karen White, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Bocock D.C. and Andrea Hodel.

[Michael]

What else?

[Joanna]

I think you have to thank our production team.

[Michael]

Oh, you know, it just. They just went out of my head entirely. Thank you, Devin. Anna and Jesse. Without him.

The holidays are coming and I've got.

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The holidays are here and the best gift is for you. Offer [e-mail] after your first two months, you'll pay 25amonth unless you go online or call to cancel. Requires autopay.

[Paige Desorbo]

Hi, it's Paige Desorbo from Giggly Squad. You ever stand in front of your closet and just say, I have nothing to wear, while you're literally surrounded by clothes? Because same. So I started listing pieces. I'm over on Depop and honestly, it's been amazing. You can sell what you're done with and someone out there will love it. And the best part about it is there's no seller fee, so the money you make actually stays in your pocket, which feels very chic. It's also insanely easy. I listed something while watching TV and it sold before the episode even ended. So download the Depop app and list your first item today because your old outfit could be someone else's new favorite. Depop where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees, boosting fees still apply. For more info, visit depop.com Dear Career.

[Michael]

Ladder, you've had your moment. You're linear and one dimensional.

[Joanna]

Ambition doesn't just go up anymore. It zigs and zags and squiggles.

[Michael]

Where's the CEOs, executives? Founders? We're advising companies, launching side hustles, taking breaks, defining our next act ambition on our terms. The possibilities are endless.

[Joanna]

Chief Lead on join [e-mail].

[Paige Desorbo]

Hi, it's Paige Desorbo from Giggly Squad. You ever stand in front of your closet and just say I have nothing to wear while you're literally surrounded by clothes? Because same so I started listing pieces. I'm over on Depop and honestly, it's been amazing. You can sell what you're done with and someone out there will love it. And the best part about it is there's no seller fee, so the money you make actually stays in your pocket, which feels very chic. It's also insanely easy. I listed something while watching TV and it sold before the episode even ended. So download the Depop app and list your first item today because your old outfit could be someone else's new favorite. Depop where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees, boosting fees still apply. For more info, visit depop.com.

[Michael]

Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily Beast [e-mail] podcasts if you enjoyed this.

[Paige Desorbo]

Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber.

[Joanna]

Subscribing is the best way to feed.

[Paige Desorbo]

The Beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to thedailybeast. Com membership Podcast and sign up today.