Why Trump Legal Threat Against Me Is Empty: Wolff

Summary

The Daily Beast Podcast: "Why Trump Legal Threat Against Me Is Empty: Wolff"

Host: Joanna Coles, The Daily Beast
Guest: Michael Wolff (author and journalist)
Date: February 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this dynamic episode, Joanna Coles sits down with author Michael Wolff to discuss Donald Trump’s latest legal threats against Wolff following the release of the Epstein files—focusing on the tangled relationships between Trump, Jeffrey Epstein, the wider political class, and media narratives. The conversation reveals Wolff’s firsthand experiences, Trump’s legal tactics, high-profile associations connected to Epstein, and concerns about the integrity of the U.S. electoral process under Trump’s presidency. Set in a tone that is witty, unfiltered, and investigative, the dialogue moves swiftly between these interconnected controversies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Legal Threats Against Michael Wolff

• Wolff reveals Trump has threatened to sue him multiple times over the past decade without any lawsuit ever materializing.
• The futility of such threats: Trump avoids litigation because a lawsuit would expose him to depositions and uncomfortable questions about Epstein and other matters.
• Memorable Quote:

  “So he has never sued me. Also, he can't sue me. What is he going to do? Is he going to sit for a deposition? Is he going to answer all of the questions that then I would have the right to ask him about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein?” — Michael Wolff [01:54]

• Wolff details that the real aim of Trump’s legal threats is procedural “punishment”—to tie his enemies up in nuisance lawsuits rather than win in court.

2. Inside Trump’s Head: Reaction to the Epstein Files

• Trump’s public responses, both in person and on Truth Social, attack Wolff and claim an unfounded conspiracy between Wolff and Epstein to harm Trump.
• Comical recreation of Trump’s rhetoric by Coles—described as “Alec Baldwin doing Donald Trump.”
• Trump accuses Wolff of being a “third-rate writer” and denies ever being to Epstein’s island.
• Memorable Quote:

  “They should be, because it looks like this guy Wolf was a writer, was conspiring with Epstein to do harm to me...we’ll probably sue Wolf, that's not a friend.” — Trump (as read by Joanna Coles) [04:10]

• Wolff notes Trump personalizes conflicts, choosing antagonists as scapegoats rather than addressing issues directly.

3. Trump’s Relationship with Epstein and Melania

• Documents from recent federal releases suggest Epstein introduced Melania to Trump.
• Discussion about the ambiguity and potentially misleading or unverified details in the files.
• Emails between Melania and Ghislaine Maxwell hint at their social proximity.
• Notable Detail:

  “In these documents, it is very, very precise...someone saying Jeffrey Epstein introduced Melania to Donald Trump.” — Michael Wolff [27:45]

4. The Challenge of Distinguishing Fact from Fiction in the Epstein Files

• Coles and Wolff debate the veracity of the newly released documents—what’s substantiated, what’s redacted, and what may be fabrication.
• The challenge for the media in reporting on the messiness of these revelations.

5. High-Profile Epstein Connections & Fallout

• Discussion of Bill Gates and Melinda Gates’s reported interactions with Epstein:
  • Bill Gates tried to end contact; Melinda expressed relief and pity about the situation.
  • Epstein allegedly tried to get favorable media coverage for Gates post-scandal.
• Anecdotes about Epstein’s tendency to cultivate connections with prominent figures, often leveraging social events and his reputation as a purveyor of insider information.
• Reflection on Peter Attia, the celebrity longevity doctor, being implicated as having prioritized seeing Epstein over his ill child, and the resulting fallout.

6. Trump’s Efforts to Manipulate US Elections

• Trump’s call to “federalize” U.S. elections—a move positioned as an attempt to centralize control for political gain.
• Patterns of interference reminiscent of his efforts in 2020 and 2024, including manipulation of redistricting and influencing Justice Department activities.
• Memorable Exchange:

  “What does that mean?...It means he's taking over the elections...He wants them nationalized so he’s in charge.”
  — Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles [31:13]

• Trump’s obsession with past election grievances as an ongoing device for future electoral manipulation.

7. Social and Political Fallout

• References to the Kennedy Center being dismantled as an act of Trump’s revenge for elite rejection.
• A broader discussion about the normalization of chaos, with Trump as the orchestrator.
• Haiku from Listener:

  “Impulse sparks ablaze
  Don pirouettes through the smoke
  Chaos is his art.” — Listener-submitted [55:33]

• Wolff: “I don’t think it’s art. Chaos is his art...the idea I’m always pushing back against is that there is any plan here...the intention is to focus all attention on him like a child.” [55:41]

8. Vladimir Putin, Epstein, and “Spycraft”

• Epstein’s boasting of having met with Putin, describing secretive, “spyish” travels, and suggesting his value lay in being a “free agent” cut off from institutional control.
• Epstein’s role as an “information purveyor,” blending gossip and intelligence for leverage.
• Quote:

  “That's the advantage of disgrace. Everybody knows that I am not in the pocket of a government...I am the only free agent at my level of finance.” — Michael Wolff recalling Epstein [43:23]

• No evidence Epstein was a Russian agent; more likely he pitched himself as an insider to many, regardless of allegiance.

9. Cultural Reflections & The Times We Live In

• Coles shares a striking monologue from a contemporary adaptation of "Oedipus," echoing political chaos and societal regression—a fitting metaphor for the current climate.
• Both express curiosity about how/if these tumultuous years will be reflected in future arts and cultural works.

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Highlighted Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump lawsuits:
  “Bring it on. I have nothing to hide. And he obviously has so much to hide.” — Michael Wolff [06:48]

• On Trump’s mindset:
  “Instead of addressing the situation, he identifies someone in the situation to be his antagonist, his nemesis...That happens to be me.” — Michael Wolff [05:03]

• On Epstein–Putin meetings:
  “I said to him, what did you talk about with Putin? And he was, he said, money, of course...So then Epstein would say that’s where he came in.” — Michael Wolff [42:08]

• On election interference:
  “The only other way to approach this election is to steal it.” — Michael Wolff [37:12]

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Notable Timestamps

• [01:54] — Wolff on the emptiness of Trump’s lawsuit threats
• [04:10] — Trump’s comments (read aloud) attacking Wolff and the media circus
• [06:48] — Wolff: “Bring it on. I have nothing to hide.”
• [10:18] — On "friendship" with Trump: transactional, confused by Trump as such
• [12:59] — Epstein’s secret negotiations with the Justice Department before his death
• [17:20] — Epstein as a PR fixer for Gates, leveraging relationships for reputation rehab
• [20:22] — Peter Attia, fallout from association with Epstein over a sick child
• [27:45] — Allegation in government files: “Epstein introduced Melania to Donald Trump”
• [31:00] — Trump calls to federalize/nationalize the US elections
• [34:14] — Tulsi Gabbard’s odd intervention in investigations for Trump
• [42:05] — Epstein’s “spyish” trip to meet Putin, his self-described role as an information broker
• [47:29] — Was Epstein paid by Russians? Wolff says it’s possible, but no smoking gun
• [52:54] — Prediction of the demise of the Kennedy Center as a cultural institution under Trump
• [53:40] — “Oedipus” monologue reflecting on societal decay
• [55:33] — Listener’s haiku: “Chaos is his art”

---

Overall Tone & Takeaways

This episode blends deep reporting, sharp wit, and the casual candor of two journalists well-versed in the world they critique. Wolff and Coles mine recent “Epstein files” for insight, but never lose sight of the bigger picture—that Trump’s politics and persona are rooted in personal grievance, chaos, and strategy-free improvisation. The episode is as much a commentary on our times as it is about its major players, showing how media, power, scandal, and narrative shape our understanding of American politics.

Transcript

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[Michael Wolff]

This is, I think the third or fourth time over the last 10 years that he has threatened to sue me. So he has never sued me. Also, he can't sue me. What is he going to do? Is he going to sit for a deposition? Is he going to answer all of the questions that then I would have the right to ask him about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein? In the release of these documents by the federal government. There is a document here that says Jeffrey Epstein introduced you to your wife. Do you want to discuss that, Mr. Trump?

[Podcast Co-host]

Michael.

[Michael Wolff]

Joanna.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, well, well, well. We sit here three times.

[Michael Wolff]

We were bound to get to this point.

[Podcast Co-host]

We were bound to get to this point. First of all, this is very nice. Where is it from? What's the label?

[Michael Wolff]

Anderson and Shepard.

[Podcast Co-host]

Oh, it's always Anderson and Shepard. Well, three times a week we go. Where do we go?

[Michael Wolff]

We go inside Donald Trump's head.

[Podcast Co-host]

And what do we find inside Donald Trump's head?

[Michael Wolff]

Me, apparently.

[Podcast Co-host]

We find you. We find you. Was there anything funnier than watching Donald Trump flying back squiffy from his dinner? The alfalfa dinner in Washington. Is it in Washington? Yeah, it is in Washington. Which, full of all these facts, flying.

[Michael Wolff]

Back, one would assume.

[Podcast Co-host]

No, he's flying to Mar a Lago.

[Michael Wolff]

Oh, he's flying from.

[Podcast Co-host]

I don't know.

[Michael Wolff]

Anyway, Donald Trump alfalfa dinner might be in New York. Actually.

[Podcast Co-host]

No, it's not in New York. I know it's not in New York. I think it's in D.C. anyway, clearly Michael and I have never been to the alfalfa dinner. But Donald Trump has been my friend. Donald has been your friend. Donald has been. Or are you a friend? And squiffy with power. We know he doesn't drink, but he seemed a little. He seemed merry with reporters in the plane on the way back. The plane, the reporters ask him about.

[Michael Wolff]

So this is the first time he's been confronted by reporters about the most recent release of the Epstein of the.

[Podcast Co-host]

3 million Epstein files. And what does he say? Shall I read it? Please. Well, they should be, because it looks like this guy Wolf was a writer, was conspiring with Epstein to do harm to me. And I didn't see it myself, but I was told by some very important people that not only does it absolve me, it's the opposite of what people were hoping. You know, the radical left, Wolf, he's a third rate writer. And so we'll probably sue Wolf, that's not a friend.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, let's unpack that. But first, that's you doing Alec Baldwin doing Donald Trump.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yes, I think so. It's a kind of yes. I mean, it's harder to do men. I can do a better Melania. But you are inside Trump's head. How did you get there? He's inside your head. We know that. But it turns out all along that you've been inside the head.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, I think the operation, I mean, let's remove me from this for a second. The operation is that when confronted with a situation, instead of addressing the situation, he identifies someone in the situation to be his antagonist, his nemesis. And that happens to be in this situation at this moment. Me.

[Podcast Co-host]

It happens to be you.

[Michael Wolff]

But let's get this. So the entire Epstein thing, one of the worst things that has happened to his presidency. Yeah, the Thing that may yet bring him down. Who is responsible for it? Me.

[Podcast Co-host]

So he also truth socialed out. NotI mean I can do. Shall I do his voice one more time? Not only was the type. No, that's your hooks to accident. That's wrong. All right, here's what he said. Not only wasn't I friendly with Jeffrey Epstein, but based upon information that has just been released by the Department of Justice, Epstein and a sleazebag lying author named Michael Wolf conspired in order to damage me and or my presidency. So much for the radical left's hope against hope, some of whom I'll be suing. Additionally, unlike so many people that like to talk trash, I never went to the infested Epstein Island. He's looking at you, Howard Lutnick. But almost all these crooked Democrats and their donors don't did thoughts.

[Michael Wolff]

Fabulous. Fabulous. What more? Now, this is, I think, the third or fourth time over the last 10 years that he has threatened to sue me. So he has never sued me.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, and you gave, I thought, a very good quote. You said this is the third or fourth time he's tried to sue me. Bring it on. I have nothing to hide.

[Michael Wolff]

And he obviously has so much to hide, but also he can't sue me. What is he going to do? Is he going to sit for a deposition? Is he going to answer all of the questions that then I would have the right to ask him about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein this time on this. We know you traveled with him on this occasion and that occasion. And that occasion. We know. And there are other things. So in this, in the release of these documents by the federal government, there is a document here that says Jeffrey Epstein introduced you to your wife. Do you want to discuss that, Mr. Trump? So I think the chances of me being sued are remote. Although having said that, just because it would be a ridiculous suit doesn't mean that he wouldn't sue.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, and also the process, as we've discussed before before, the process of delivering a lawsuit is part of the punishment, as he thinks of it. Right. I mean, he doesn't think that if he sued you, it would get anywhere. Clearly, he doesn't want to sit for any kind of discovery. But just wrapping you up in a lawsuit is irritation enough.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Although for me, it would not be irritation.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right. It would be fun. It would be fun.

[Michael Wolff]

It would be arriving.

[Podcast Co-host]

But why you, Michael? Lots of people have written about Donald Trump. Yes. You've written four books which were all bestsellers.

[Michael Wolff]

Well.

[Podcast Co-host]

There'S also this comment that's Not a friend?

[Michael Wolff]

No. That's when I heard that, I thought, were we friends? When did this take place?

[Podcast Co-host]

I think we were friends. When he invited you to write about him in his Hollywood house and he threw through the ice cream after.

[Michael Wolff]

I think that he. I suppose he thought. I mean, that would be where we was that a moment in which we were friendly. Yes. I mean, I was a reporter covering him, I was not insulting him. So I suppose you could say it was a friendly meeting. But friends, Were we ever friends? Were we ever. Did we ever pal around? I have a kind of. I kind of think. Think that he thinks that. You know, when I was at New York magazine, he used to call me up on a frequent basis and we would. I mean, it was always, you know, you did this story, they did this story. I should have been in it. How come Usually people called you up and said, why did you say that about me?

[Podcast Co-host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And then he would call up and say, why didn't you say something about me?

[Podcast Co-host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

But they were perfectly friendly, if ridiculous conversations.

[Podcast Co-host]

But it was transactional. I mean, he's confusing any kind of interaction as a friend because he's a man that doesn't have friends. Unless is Jeffrey Epstein or maybe Steve Witkoff.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No. And Michael Wolff. I could be now negotiating with the Russians and the Iranians if I had only behaved myself.

[Podcast Co-host]

If only you had stayed friendly with him.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, once I was, before he became the president a second time, I had said to one of his people, I said, let's go. I mean, what happens if he does become president? And this person, close aide, said, well, you become the ambassador to a small country. So I think that there has been in his conception of the world, a world in which I am his friend.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, not anymore you're not. Because now he's thinking of suing you. He's thinking of suing you. And of course, you've absolved him somehow, your friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, and you're pleading with Jeffrey Epstein to bring out information.

[Michael Wolff]

Let's be clear about what I'm saying, theoretically, conspiring to do. I am conspiring to get Jeffrey Epstein to come forward with everything that he knows about Donald Trump. So the idea that that is somehow. An effort to damage him. Well, it is an effort to damage him, actually.

[Podcast Co-host]

And he's already president at this point.

[Michael Wolff]

It is a. Well, yes, this was during the first term.

[Podcast Co-host]

Okay, so this was. But this. Right. So during the first term, you were trying to persuade Jeffrey Epstein to come out with all the information he Had. Which would disqualify Donald Trump from being president?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, yes, I mean, it would be, you know, in the effort and again, in the effort not to have him be the president again, which subsequently happened. Yes, it was. I thought it, I thought. I have always thought that it is one of the important things to know about Donald Trump is that he had this long relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, which was, you know, he's blacked out for many years. Epstein did. I know Epstein did. I maybe passed him in the hallways at Mar a Lago once and then I threw him out.

[Podcast Co-host]

It is extraordinary. I mean, the files themselves are so wide reaching and I'm so not a conspiracy theorist. I'm always the person that believes the cock up. But I now don't think he committed suicide. I mean, it's just, I feel like the fact that he was in conversations to potentially negotiate some sort of deal, which I don't think we knew, did we, that 10 days before he was found dead.

[Michael Wolff]

I knew.

[Podcast Co-host]

You knew.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, I mean, I know, yes. I know the parameters of this story and I know Epstein's lawyers and I know and have written that, yes, that that was. That there, that there was a reach out to the Justice Department to have a sit down and see what they could to begin that discussion.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yes. Okay. I didn't know that. I knew that he had rewritten his will, but I didn't understand that they'd written out. They'd reached out to the Justice Department to see if there was a sort of compromised territory here.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, and I think that's more specific. They had reached out. So this was, I mean, if you, I think to understand this properly, that would not be exceptional. Your client is in jail. Your client is being denied bail. You're looking for, you're looking for any opening there. So why wouldn't you sit down? So I wouldn't go that far in saying that the Epstein's. That Epstein had volunteered to sit down and say everything he knows. I don't know how. I don't think it got that far.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, it is absolutely astonishing how many people hung out with him. And all these people that said they didn't. Melinda Gates came out today saying that she just felt very sad that the whole situation with Bill Gates was very sad that he'd contracted, at least according to a note from Jeffrey Epstein to Jeffrey Epstein, oddly, it was obviously a note he'd written and he was trying to figure out, I think, whether or not to send it. Because Bill Gates was trying to end their relationship, because he'd Obviously realized this was not going to end well for him and indeed it has not. But Belinda Gates was talking about it and just saying how sad it was. How very, very sad and how glad she was to be out of her relationship.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I would call that gloating.

[Podcast Co-host]

You would call it gloating?

[Michael Wolff]

Now that's interesting. And I have.

[Podcast Co-host]

I'm not sure it was gloating to be fair, because I don't think you want people to know that your ex husband was hanging out with hookers, got an STD and then tried to smuggle antibiotics into your breakfast. But now it's out there.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you don't want it out there. But if you, you want to be in any. When the marriage breaks up, you always want to be the virtuous person and have the other, your former spouse be the not virtuous.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, I guess that's true. But I thought Melinda Gates was very powerful the way she talked about it and just said she felt. Felt very sad over it. Tough for his kids and tough for his kids.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. I mean, to me, as I say, I say I'm virtuous. Bill is a pig. But let me have. I have a slightly further perspective on this, which I don't have an answer to this, but it would seem from these, from these emails and this evidence that Epstein's relationship with Bill Gates broke down in 2013. By 2013, I mean, it seems like this is for whatever happened. I mean, I mean the position that Epstein had on with regard to some fundanyway all this had come apart. Okay. I start talking seriously to Epstein about a book or an article or something that he wants in 2014. Among the reasons I say that I. Among the. I asked Epstein why he wants to do this and he explicitly says that Bill Gates has asked him to get some. To see if he can have something written about him that would acknowledge the other factors of his life, which is to say the other people that he knows, his interest in science, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. In other words, to try to in some way rehabilitate his past, mitigate his past.

[Podcast Co-host]

Because he spent a year in jail for soliciting minors for prostitution.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. So I, and I don't know the answer to this because I did not know that this was in 2013 that they had, that this, had that their relationship had broken down. Now maybe they repaired it. I don't know. I know that I said yes, I would be, I would be happy to talk about this and would be particularly interested in doing this if, If I could interview Gates. And he said, yes, definitely, definitely. And there's some. There is in the email chain, him talking about what Gates might say and what he might want Gates to say and the meetings that he could set up. Now, this never happened. So I don't know if there was any. If after 2013, this remained a kind of Jeffrey Epstein fantasy that he was still in the Gates world or if they had repaired their relationship or if he was trying to yet repair that relationship.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, that's what it sounds like from the emails that I've read that have been released. And there's so much stuff that it's impossible to know where to begin. And also, odd things float up, like Katie Couric saying, your lasagna rocked. You know, and also she says, I know you don't think you're much of a foodie, but your lasagna rocked.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I saw that. And I thought, God, I mean, I mean, it was very hard to think of Jeffrey Epstein in the same sentence as lasagna, for one thing. And, and of that lasagna rocking.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, I think Katie said that she had only been there once and she was invited to a dinner organized by Peggy Siegel, where I think people were being lured in with the bait of meeting Prince Andrew. I think George Stephanopoulos attended the same debate. No news on whether or not he liked the lasagna.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. I mean, that. I don't know. That email did not sound like that. That that party, which was, I think in 2011, was a big event, was not a sit down and have lasagna. Lasagna would not have been on the menu in a glamour bash that was, in fact a cocktail party.

[Podcast Co-host]

I imagine that Prince Andrew wouldn't want lasagna. I think he's used to eating grouse. Grouse or nothing. For Andrew, froggy, formerly known as lasagna.

[Michael Wolff]

Is a secret word. A lot of people, people called me over the weekend and say, there's a lot of mention of pizza there. I'm bringing the pizza. What was that a byword for?

[Podcast Co-host]

It's all depressing. And what about pizza attir?

[Michael Wolff]

Probably a pizza.

[Podcast Co-host]

Probably a pizza. What About Peter Attia, CBS's new longevity guru, who, it turns out, according to our reporting, had declined the opportunity to go and spend time with his very ill young baby son because he was hanging out with Epstein. Peter Attia, who wrote outlived the longevity expert, whose friend Jeffrey Epstein did not, in fact, prove his thesis about longevity.

[Michael Wolff]

No, but he might have. I mean, I think he had his Longevity interfered with.

[Podcast Co-host]

Oh, you think. You think he was killed?

[Michael Wolff]

No, no, no, no. I'm just saying it was. If he had not died by his own hands or someone else's hand, he might be here for decades, decades beyond.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, we should.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. But I do know that that guy, that longevity guy was also caught in this. And I have seen people do this, and I've seen people around Epstein do this, and people in other situations in which somebody talks in a way that you really perhaps wish they would not talk, and then you sort of follow in. You sort of get into the patois of talking about. This guy talks about women in a kind of. In a kind of. In a way a. That you shouldn't talk, obviously, but in a way that sounds incredibly awkward like that. And I was reminded of the grab them by the pussy moment when Billy Bush agrees. Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

Sort of ingratiates himself with Trump because you're with someone that says someone. Something so outrageous that. That you're trying to seize.

[Michael Wolff]

And I remember when Epstein would say this kind of stuff and he said things that you assumed actually were to shock and would you push back? Would you go along? How would you react to this?

[Podcast Co-host]

Do you know how you can react to it? You can just go, mm.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that's what you do end up doing, of course. You sort of look away. This guy dove in and he was. He was.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, he's lost his sponsorship of the David Protein bar as a result. Barry Weiss is doggedly, stubbornly hanging onto him, though I don't know how you watch him on television and take his advice seriously when you know that he declined to spend time with his ill little baby boy because he'd rather have.

[Michael Wolff]

How do we know this?

[Podcast Co-host]

Because we put the Dateline together. So he's saying that he can't get back to see his son in hospital because he's fantastically busy working in New York. In fact, he's making. According to the emails, he's making plans to see Jeffrey Epstein. So it's another dissatisfied wife. I would not want to be Mr. Attia right now, having to deal with Mrs. Attia, never mind having to face all the sponsors that are going to pull out of some supporting you. It's quite a difficult one to come back from. Happily. His book was a great big bestseller. Let's hope he saved some money.

[Michael Wolff]

A great big best seller.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

Anyway, several, many, many copies sold. Well, at least I have been been given at least three copies. I think a lot have happened too, which is like, okay, what's the message here? Yes, I think I know what the message is.

[Podcast Co-host]

What is the message?

[Michael Wolff]

People want you to live or people think I'm old? Yes.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, you're young. You're young in investigative spirit.

[Michael Wolff]

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[Michael Wolff]

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[Podcast Co-host]

And Michael Wolff and I are back. Well, you know where we are. We're inside Trump's head.

[Michael Wolff]

I want to go back to the Melania thing, just obviously because it's apropos of precisely what my dispute with her is about. And let's, let's remember I said, and I think I said on this, on this podcast or I indicated that there was a view certainly that Epstein had introduced her to Trump or at least within. I think I actually put it in more milder terms that they knew each other from the same social circle. And then she obviously, her lawyers then said, well, we're going to sue you for a billion dollars. Because, because you said that. But in these documents, it is very, very precise. I mean, someoneand we don't know exactly who because it's redacted, but it is someone saying Jeffrey Epstein introduced Melania to Donald Trump.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah, no, it's absolutely clear from that. Well, it had been taken down by an FBI agent, I think. Right. Because it was written in very procedural langu.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I don't know. Well, I mean, that's part of the thing. And this may of course not be true, but that characterizes so much of what has been in this recent drop of Epstein files. What's true, what's not true.

[Podcast Co-host]

All right, I'm just going to read the bit. And much of this memo has been redacted, but something put in contact with an agent named Paolo Zampaoli who worked with ID models. Redact, redact, redact. Zampoli was trying to buy elite models with Epstein. Epstein introduced Melania Trump to Donald Trump. Epstein was visiting Zampoli at the agency when they were casting auditions for models. Epstein was looking through portfolios and saw photographs of her wearing only swim bottoms. Well, actually, we don't know that was Melania because the name was redacted, but it definitely says someone am Zimpoli were at a nightclub with Epstein, who was there with a woman who redacted, believed was. Makes no sense or redacted. You can't understand it, but very clearly. It says Zmpoli was trying to buy elite models. Epstein introduced Melania Trump to Donald Trump. Yes.

[Michael Wolff]

And we know, we've seen that other email of Melania writing to Ghislaine.

[Podcast Co-host]

We saw Melania writing to Ghislaine saying she can't wait to get back down to Palm Beach. And then we see a few weeks later, actually, Ghislaine's response to Melania calling her sweet pea.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And in that same first email, Dear G. It's Dear G, congratulations on the great article about JE In New York magazine.

[Podcast Co-host]

And the photos of you look great. Right. So, all right, we've got the fallout off for Epstein. We've got an armada heading to Iran, and we've got Donald Trump fiddling with the elections.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, I think that this is the headline story. The headline story is that Donald Trump has called for elections in the United States to be federalized.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

What does that mean, in other words? Well, it means he's taking over the elections. Remember, the elections in the United States are state by state. They're run by on a local basis. And every state has little differences in how they do it, because that's how it's done. Their elections are not federal. They're state by state.

[Podcast Co-host]

And he wants them nationalized so he's in charge.

[Michael Wolff]

And then he would be in charge. Now, of course, this is Donald Trump running at the mouth, as he always does. Does it have any meaning? Perhaps not, but it might. And certainly we know. And there has been now an observable pattern that he's obsessed with these coming midterm elections, as well he should be. And he has tried. There was the redistricting effort in him calling for states to redistrict in a way that that will give him a clear advantage in the. In the House of Representatives.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, and he also sent Tulsi Gabbard in to oversee FBI agents going in and taking the files from the 2000 election in Fulton County, Georgia, where he's obsessed with proving that he actually won the election.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, back to 2020, back to the.

[Podcast Co-host]

Big lie that he won. The incredibly brave Brad Ratzenberger, who refused to give him the 11,000 votes after Trump had called him and said, I need you to find me 11,000 votes. Brad Ratzenberger went public with it. He said, I'm not doing it. It was a whole to do. But Trump has maintained that he won the 2000 election.

[Michael Wolff]

And then Trump was subsequently indicted in Georgia over this behavior, of which he now maintains that that was that was an effort, a politically motivated effort to defeat him. Essentially. That was election interference.

[Podcast Co-host]

Why is he still so obsessed about 2000? Why does he care? He won 2024. Why can't he focus on what's happening now?

[Michael Wolff]

But because I think it is the mechanism by which he interferes in the 2026 election. This is the thing. This is the device, the rhetorical device, the. The legal device in which he takes steps to give himself a 2026 advantage.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, and the other remarkable thing about Tulsi Gabbard being there, and she had no reason to be there, Even Todd Blanche, the number two at the Justice Department, our friend, because he went down to interview Ghislaine Maxwell and of course, was Trump's personal lawyer during all his various legal affairs before he got reelected. He doesn't need to be there.

[Michael Wolff]

I actually feel I know Blanche because I sat in the trial in New York and watched him, you know, I mean, I spent, what was that, six weeks sitting, you know, five to 10ft away from this guy, looking at him constantly and thinking that's the worst job anyone could ever have.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, it turns out, not necessarily, because now he's number two, a very corrupt doj. But even Todd Blanche said there was zero reason for Tulsi Gabbard, the head of national investigation.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, the reason, of course. The reason was, of course, was that she was there at the behest of Donald Trump.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right. And then she called the President when she was there and had him on the phone with FBI agents, which is a computer. No, no, there's supposed to be complete separation between the executive and the FBI agents. And, of course, another boundary broken.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. I mean, what we have here is the beginning, a pattern of him trying to interfere in the next election. So, I mean, this will get this. He is going to ramp this up. So we are really looking at the possibility that this election will be undermined by the President of the United States.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah, it's incredible. And also, even if all he's doing is sowing doubt about the process, that's enough to make people think, eh, maybe this isn't right. I mean, it's really. It's really scary stuff.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I mean, he. I mean, let's look at the stakes here. If he loses the midterm election, which.

[Podcast Co-host]

He says he thinks he's going to do.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, he is in trouble.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, he is in profound trouble.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, he said he thinks they will impeach him.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And it is functionally, if not the end of his presidency, it kind of comes to a stop.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, and Steve Bannon said at I think some conservative conference, you know, we will all be in jail. That's literally what he said. We will all be in jail.

[Michael Wolff]

So therefore, understanding those stakes, what does he do and what can he do? I mean, he is notit is not that he is going to change course. Look at the polls and sayand say this immigration enforcement is unpopular. We better stop doing it. We better stop threatening Greenland and whoever else we're threatening. Very unpopular. The economy better do something about that. He's not going to be able to do any of those things. He either won't know what to do vis a vis the economy or is unable to reverse course just because that's not what he does.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right. He doubles down. So.

[Michael Wolff]

So the only other way to approach this election is to steal it.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right. And is to undermine the entire process. And of course, as you've said, they rule until there is resistance. They get away with as much as they possibly can, and then they pull it back. So by him saying we're going to federalize, nationalize elections, the fact that they fiddle with a couple of states, if that's what it actually comes down to, is enough.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, and again, it is that thing. We do too much, we get dinged on it and we pull back by 50%. But we're still 50% of where we would have otherwise have been.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yep. No, it's very, very scary. It's scary. Weird, weird times.

[Michael Wolff]

And once more, a commercial message.

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[Podcast Co-host]

And Trump author Michael Wolff and I are back inside Trump's head.

[Michael Wolff]

Putin.

[Podcast Co-host]

Let's talk about Putin, because he gets some mentions in the Epstein files too.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I, I mean, and remember, Putin floats over so much of our political time. What's Trump's relationship with Putin? What's Melania's relationship with Putin?

[Podcast Co-host]

Who she talked to, we know for the children who were taken from Ukraine. She got six of them back, you.

[Michael Wolff]

Know, and also obviously she comes from Eastern Europe. There's a. This is, this is not unfamiliar territory, though.

[Podcast Co-host]

Strangely, there was no mention of Vladimir Putin in the Melania, the documentary. But what was Jeffrey Epstein's and then.

[Michael Wolff]

Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with Putin? And then I'm going to add another element on this, which is Brett Ratner's relationship with Putin.

[Podcast Co-host]

Brett Ratner, the director of the Melania documentary?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, the director. The. The me tooed director. The wholly discredited director of all the directors that she could pick. The most discredited director in Hollywood is the one she picked. But let's get to that in a minute. But go to Jeffrey Epstein. There's a lot in these files. A lot of. You can track his interest in Putin, his. The hints of his relationship with Putin.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, he's organizing, visiting Putin.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And I know that at one point he described to Me that he had gone to see Putin and he had described the circuitous way that he had gotten there, that he had taken his own plane to Helsinki, as I think I remember, but it may have been somewhere else. And then he had shifted to another plane that had been sent by Putin or a Russian plane. I mean, he was kind of fascinated by this. It was very spyish, which I think he regaled me and I assume many other people with this adventure. And then I said to him, I said, well, what did you talk about with Putin? And he was, he said, money, of course, and which is obviously credible. And then Epstein had this thing that. People who had money outside of the, of the formal banking system, and let's assume a lot of Putin's money was questionable and dirty, whatever. And that's whatso they couldn't. He couldn't put it into, you know, JP Morgan. It had to beit had to exist somewhere outside of the forest. Formal financial systems in the world. So then Epstein would say that that's where he came in. And people like this wanted to talk to him or were willing to talk to him or trusted talking to him because he was disgraced. So he would describe, he said, that's the advantage of disgrace. Everybody knows that I am not in the pocket of a government or of a financial institution or of a corporation. I am the only, he would say, free agent at my level of finance.

[Podcast Co-host]

Okay, so there's been a lot of people. There was a big piece in the Daily Mail saying that Jeffrey Epstein was a Russian agent. My interpretation of looking at so far, what I've seen is that he was sort of an agent for everybody and nobody.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he was an information purveyor, an information nexus. That's what he did. He gathered as much information as he could and then he retailed this.

[Podcast Co-host]

Okay, so there was a fascinating bit in an email exchange he has with Peter Mandelson where he's basically saying to Peter Mandelson, who unbelievably was the business secretary at the time, you know, don't tax bankers bonuses. And then there's a back and forth and Epstein wants Mandelson to tell him before Mandelson tells Jess Staley, who was a friend of Epstein's and then the CEO of Barclays bank, clearly so Jeffrey could tell him. So it made it look like he had the information first from the British business secretary who Jess Staley should have been talking to probably every day.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I mean, this was what is at the center of Epstein's enterprise. And his attractiveness is that he knows a lot of stuff.

[Podcast Co-host]

So he was well informed and he shared information. He was basically a high class gossip.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, well, let's make the distinction between intelligence and gossip. And there is not always a distinction, but there often is. This is intelligence. We've vetted it, we've arrived at a conclusion that it is trustworthy at this level, at a 90% level, at 100% level, at an 80% level. I mean, it's information that has gone through the system. And then there's gossip, which is somebody calls up Jeffrey Epstein and says, and.

[Podcast Co-host]

Then I like that noise, I like that kind of sound.

[Michael Wolff]

And then he repeats it and then he repeats it to someone else. So. And I think that is much more the case. And I know that the information. And I went to Jeffrey Epstein for the information he could provide and I would say often it was very good information, but it was often maybe at a somewhat lesser level. Lesser, maybe 30% of it was ridiculous. It didn't pan out. He had gotten it from God knows where and it wasit just sent you down a rabbit hole in which you. Which accomplished nothing.

[Podcast Co-host]

So was he being paid by the Russians? Is that one of the reasons why he seemed to have so much more money than anyone could figure out how he got it?

[Michael Wolff]

He perfectly well could have been paid by the Russians. He perfectly well could have beeni mean, there are less now, but there certainly was at some point in time lots of Americans who were paid by the Russians. So that's not illegal, that's not even disreputable.

[Podcast Co-host]

Wait a minute. Lots of Americans being paid by the Russians? What do you mean?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean.

[Podcast Co-host]

You mean in business? Yes, right.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I mean in, you know.

[Podcast Co-host]

In lots of business deals or.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, or just giving advice. I mean, you know, I mean, I think you would find a range of American investment banks and consulting firms who were no doubt paid by Russian entities. So that's not necessarily, that's not a smoking gun. And I don't know if he was paid by the Russians. And actually Epstein used to say that he was very careful not to take money from anybody in a dubious position. But then he would say, that does not mean I did not give them advice. So what did that mean? I don't know.

[Podcast Co-host]

Also, what on earth would Jeffrey Epstein's definition of dubious be?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, let me hear. I just give you one example. So I once had dinner with Jeffrey Epstein in. This was in Paris, and my wife and I were in Paris and we just kind of coincidentally ran into Jeffrey Epstein. Actually, I could Go further with this. Jeffrey Epstein used the swimming pool at the Ritz in Paris as his kind of health spa. And in the swimming pool at the.

[Podcast Co-host]

Ritz, we probably thought he would find models there.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he went. Actually, we saw him in the swimming pool at the Ritz. We ran into Jeffrey Epstein, who was there with, I think, two women. They were not underage women, but they were certainly two women in their 20s. But at any rate, this resulted in a dinner invitation. And we went to dinner at Jeffrey Epstein's house in Paris. And the other guest there to go to the disreputable point was the guy who ran the ports in Djibouti. No, I just want to. My suspicion would be that all of the world's corruption might well converge on the port of Djibouti.

[Podcast Co-host]

I think it's possible. I think it's possible. And also, I can't imagine how would you even open a conversation with someone who runs the. The ports in Djibouti. What did you say? It's very busy. Must be very busy. Difficult job. How big are the containers? Tell me about supply chain.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, actually, curiously, the man who ran the ports of Djibouti apparently at one point in his career, had been out of favor and he was put in jail. So Jeffrey Epstein and the man who ran the ports of Djibouti then talked together about their experiences in jail.

[Podcast Co-host]

Except that I think Jeffrey's experiences would have been quite different because he was allowed out for work release six days a week. It was a sweetheart deal.

[Michael Wolff]

As I understand it, he had spent six months in jail and then was released. But he did say it was not as bad as it appears in the.

[Podcast Co-host]

Movies, and I'm sure it wasn't as bad as it appears in Djibouti.

[Michael Wolff]

But I said to the man who runs the port of Djibouti, and what were you in for?

[Podcast Co-host]

Right?

[Michael Wolff]

And he said, oh, terrorism. But I wasn't the terrorist. It was really the other people.

[Podcast Co-host]

Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness me. The life you have lived, Michael Wolff. Well, no wonder you're inside Donald Trump's head. No wonder you are inside Donald Trump Trump's head. Now, what's happening with the Kennedy Center? Marble armrests are what's happening with the Kennedy Center.

[Michael Wolff]

I think the Kennedy center will be destroyed.

[Podcast Co-host]

Do you?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, I think that he is going to take this down. I mean, I think that he is pissed that everyone has or that so many, so many people have said, we're not going to have anything to do with the Donald J. Trump Kennedy Center.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

They say in the White House, the Donald J. Trump Kennedy Center.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right. Yeah. So Renee Fleming just pulled out. Philip Glass pulled out. The National Opera has left the building. So this is an act of revenge. He's now going to close it down.

[Michael Wolff]

I think he will close it down. I think he will break it down. I think he will build something. Something else up, and it will be a venue for. What's that Ultimate Fighting thing he does?

[Podcast Co-host]

Ufc.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Podcast Co-host]

So you think the Kennedy Center.

[Michael Wolff]

I think the Kennedy Center. The Kennedy center as a cultural institution is over. Finished.

[Podcast Co-host]

Wow. All right, well, I've got a limerick to read us out on, but I went to see the play Oedipus over the. The weekend on Broadway, which I'm very late to. I know everybody's been the sensation of the Broadway season, but it's. It's set, it's rewritten. The myth of Oedipus is rewritten by Robert Icky. Ike. I don't know how you pronounce it. I think it's icky. And I wanted to read something because it starts with a politician. Well, you say Oedipus. They say Oedipus in it. And that's the English pronunciation. And it's an English class.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right. And it came from. And it's a very. It's very well done.

[Michael Wolff]

It came from the West.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah. Mark Strong, Leslie Manville, and Anne Reed. But I was going to read you apart from the beginning. So, Mark Strong, Oedipus is a politician, as we know. He's running for office. And he. And it starts with a video, which is like a kind of political ad for him. And he goes, final thoughts on the way things are. I think what everyone thinks, we're sick, the civic body is ill. And that isn't trees and chemicals, it's lakes. It's us. It's us. We're sick. The water got poisoned, and we got used to the taste. And while we were sleeping, while we were staring into our palms, they deliberately dragged us back in time. Backwards to a time when the rich were rich and the poor poor were poor. Backwards to when people who weren't like us deserved persecution. Backwards until rumors and lies were the same as truth. And we've seen that in this campaign. And it was just a relief to go and see a play that had been reworked to fit what we appear to be living through.

[Michael Wolff]

It will be interesting to see because it really hasn't started to happen yet. That this time is reflected in theater, movies, fiction.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah, well, it was the first time I'd seen something that really spoke to the Times. And it's had tremendous review. Tremendous reviews. Tremendous reviews. It's had great reviews.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't think you can, after you've read that, I don't think you can go to a limerick.

[Podcast Co-host]

All right, I'll save the limericks. We've got a high cue though. The high cue from Lilla is rather. I think we should support our creative class, our community. So I'm just going to read Garfrey. We're going to give you a break this week, but we're going to read Leela's Haikyuu on the art of chaos. Impulse sparks ablaze Don pirouettes through the smoke Chaos is his art.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't think it's art. Chaos is his art.

[Podcast Co-host]

Chaos is his lifeblood.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean chaos. I mean you wouldn't call the chaos of a, of a child and I have a four year old art. You would call it just chaos.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, I think she means it's his.

[Michael Wolff]

Skill, you know, I never mean his talent, but it'. Syes. I mean it is his result, really. I mean that's what happens here. But the idea, which is the idea that I'm always pushing back against, that there is any plan here, that there is any method, that there is any strategy, that there is any intention. Yes, there is an intention. The intention is to focus all attention on him like a child.

[Podcast Co-host]

If you have been. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. Leave us a comment. You know we love to read them and I answer as many as I possibly can. We're independent media so we really appreciate your support.

[Michael Wolff]

Joanna. Hi. I have to tell you about something that we're obsessed with with. I'm Kevin Fallon. And I'm Matt Wilstein and we are.

[Podcast Co-host]

Hosting Obsess, the podcast about all the TV shows, movies and entertainment newsmakers that.

[Michael Wolff]

We'Re all obsessed with. So make sure you subscribe to us on YouTube at the YouTube channel. Make sure you follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for obsessed the podcast and we will see you there.

[Podcast Co-host]

So the good news is we have so many bebeast tier members now there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team. Devon Rogerino, Ryan Murray, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, Neil Rosenhaus.

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Wait, we're going on tour?

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[Michael Wolff]

Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast the Last Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily.

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[Podcast Co-host]

Podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline.

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