Podcast Summary: The Daily Beast Podcast
Episode: Why Trump's More Dangerous Every Day: Psychiatrist
Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Dr. Bandy Lee (Forensic Psychiatrist, Author & Whistleblower)
Date: November 6, 2025
Overview
This riveting episode features Dr. Bandy Lee, the renowned forensic psychiatrist and editor of The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump. The discussion is a sweeping—and urgent—analysis of Donald Trump's mental health, his effect on the American psyche, and the profound dangers posed by an unchecked leader with pathologically insecure, violent tendencies. Drawing from her extensive experience in psychiatry, prisons, and public health, Dr. Lee explains why she and other mental health professionals have issued persistent, public warnings about the psychological and societal contagion unleashed by Trump—and what must be done to contain it. The conversation explores psychiatric ethics, mass psychology, Stockholm syndrome, and how truth becomes “malignant normality” under authoritarian rule.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
The Origins of Psychiatric Warnings about Trump
- Danger Beyond Appearance:
- Dr. Lee summarizes the thesis of her 2017 bestseller (The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump): Trump is “more dangerous than he appeared to be,” and if not contained early, “he would become uncontainable.” (05:59)
- Professional Backlash and Ethics:
- The American Psychiatric Association (APA) invoked the Goldwater Rule to silence public diagnoses, a move Lee describes as paradoxically unethical because “mental health experts have an ethical responsibility to society to warn of the dangers that we saw.” (15:44)
- Her warnings were embraced privately by high-level figures, including General John Kelly and General Mark Milley, who reportedly circulated her book to manage the presidency’s unpredictable dangers. (17:42)
Symptoms and Syndromes of Danger
- Key Signs Identified by Dr. Lee and Colleagues:
- “Violence proneness... verbally aggressive, boasting about sexual assaults, attracted to violent dictators and dangerous weapons, inciting crowds to perform dangerous acts.” (08:01)
- “The greatest danger comes not from physically punching out one person at a time, but rather the rhetoric and psychological conditioning that would transmit his own attraction to violence and instigate violence through society.” (09:12)
- Malignant Normality:
- Lee describes how “severe pathology has a way of overriding... the healthy people who contain the individual with severe symptoms, it’s rather the symptoms in that dominant individual that spread to earlier healthy individuals.” (10:30)
- This collective shift leads to societies “acting as if we ourselves have lost reality testing and are attracted to self-destructive acts.” (27:31)
Mechanisms of Influence & Mass Psychology
- Trump as a "Spellbinder":
- “He has enticed them, in a sense hypnotized them. In political psychology we actually call these individuals spellbinders.” (26:06)
- Lee explains the concept of “shared psychosis” (folie à millions), as first noted by Erich Fromm, where millions adopt a kind of induced delusional thinking through exposure to an authoritative, pathological personality. (27:34)
- Impact of Social Media:
- The “contagious effect” of his pathology is amplified by continued, unfettered public exposure and a media environment that enhances “his ability to capture the public’s mind.” (33:20, 34:28)
- Parallels are drawn to COVID-19: "Allowing him access to the media and allowing him to speak to the public...was the most important of all," referencing the spread of disinformation during the pandemic. (36:00)
The Psychological Impact on the Nation
- Abuse on a National Scale:
- "Many of those who have been victims of violence have stated that they have flashbacks and unwanted memories from watching the Trump presidencies unfold... the Trump presidency is like being in an abusive relationship... a national situation of national abuse." (41:24)
The Containment Imperative
- Professional Containment Strategies:
- As with violent, psychopathic inmates, the first priority is “removing them from access to settings where they can cause harm... and keep society safe.” (15:30)
- “The first step is to keep society safe from such individuals. And that is where it’s critical that mental health experts speak up.” (16:44)
- Lee likens the Trump phenomenon to a “contagion,” noting clinical cases where, “after an entire family looks like they're schizophrenic because of one individual... you hospitalize them, and the rest of the family returns to normal.” (32:29)
Failure of Institutions and the Public's Role
- Widening Danger:
- “The longer we allow this to go on, the more dangerous he will become, and we will not be keeping ourselves safe.” (18:05)
- Lee asserts that now “many agencies and institutions that would have contained him…have all cowered and have become fearful” under intimidation and bullying. (18:27)
- Call to Action:
- "It’s truly up to the public and the nation, and we should be doing it from every angle that we can." (19:13)
- She urges collective education and empowerment, arguing that mental health knowledge must be accessible to all, not just “those with wealth and power who can afford to consult.”
Coping with Collective Trauma
- Battered Person/Stockholm Syndrome:
- Lee draws a parallel between America’s psychological state and "battered person syndrome" and "Stockholm syndrome"—where the captured identify with or idealize their captor for psychic survival. (43:34 - 44:04)
- “It is so intolerable that you would rather choose to put your captor in the right and to idealize them, to consider them your savior rather than your violator. And we’re in a very similar situation.” (44:04)
The Existential Stakes
- Core Dangers:
- Dr. Lee outlines three existential threats from an unchecked leader: nuclear risk, environmental hazard, and psychological manipulation of the populace. (44:51)
- “My solution really is for all manner of institutions, agencies, stakeholders to please consider consulting U.S. mental health experts who deal with these situations day in and day out. Containing danger is one of the main work that we do...” (48:30)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “Donald Trump was more dangerous than he appeared to be, that he was bound to only increase in his dangerousness, and that if we failed to contain him early on, he would become uncontainable.” — Dr. Bandy Lee [05:59]
- “He has enticed them, in a sense, hypnotized them. In political psychology we actually call these individuals spellbinders... it’s the contagious effect” — Dr. Bandy Lee [26:06]
- “Malignant normality... is when falsehood becomes truth, criminality becomes innocence, and mental pathology becomes health.” — Dr. Bandy Lee [37:04]
- “It’s a national situation of national abuse.” — Dr. Bandy Lee [41:34]
- “It’s not really by people’s reasoned, informed consent that they have enlisted to buy into his views, but rather his spread of symptoms through exposure.” — Dr. Bandy Lee [27:08]
- “Removing the person from exposure will actually bring a lot of people back to their original state of mind where they were able to think for themselves and to reason and to see and to resist mental manipulations.” — Dr. Bandy Lee [33:05]
- “Containing danger is one of the main work that we do, assessing, measuring, level of danger and appropriating the correct amount of containment that would be mandatory for our safety and survival.” — Dr. Bandy Lee [48:30]
Important Timestamps
- Trump's pathologies as President and his appeal to supporters: [02:12] [26:06]
- Origins and ethics of “The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump”: [03:18], [05:59], [17:42]
- Symptoms and ‘malignant normality’ explained: [08:01], [10:06]
- Dr. Lee on containment strategy: [15:30]
- Failure of institutions and why public action is needed: [18:05], [19:13]
- Explanation of shared psychosis and group contagion: [27:34], [32:29]
- The role of social media and loss of resistance: [34:15], [36:00]
- Parallels to mass abuse and Stockholm syndrome: [41:24], [43:34]
- Existential stakes—nuclear, climate, and psychological risks: [44:51]
- Final call for containment and consultation with mental health experts: [48:30]
Conclusion
Dr. Bandy Lee delivers a sobering, science-rooted examination of the Trump phenomenon, not merely as a matter of politics, but as a “public health emergency”—one with potentially lethal ramifications for democracy, global stability, and individual well-being. She calls for the mobilization of all sectors, especially mental health professionals, to contain this “psychological pandemic,” halt its spread, and restore collective reality testing. Lee’s arguments, grounded in both clinical experience and academic research, make this episode essential listening for anyone seeking to understand the intersection of psychology, leadership, and national crisis in America today.
For more on Dr. Lee’s work: