Why Trump’s Stupidity and Grift Is Dooming Him

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Daily Beast Podcast

Episode Title: Why Trump’s Stupidity and Grift Is Dooming Him
Host: Joanna Coles
Guests: Jennifer Welsh, Kurt Anderson, Stephanie Rule
Release Date: July 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode, airing over the 4th of July weekend, dives deep into the unraveling of the Trump presidency in his second term, focusing on the toxic mix of incompetence, sycophancy, and grift among his cabinet and inner circle. Through lively, candid conversations with fan-favorite guests—podcaster Jennifer Welsh, author and commentator Kurt Anderson, and economic journalist Stephanie Rule—the panel dissects the flagrant dysfunction and relentless self-dealing that threaten both Trump’s administration and the fabric of American democracy. From scathing critiques of cabinet members’ obsequiousness to the disastrous impact of Trump’s war in Iran, the discussion is incisive, often darkly funny, and unflinching in its diagnosis.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Deathbed Confession Era & Cabinet Sycophancy

• [04:07] Sycophancy in Trump’s Cabinet:

  • Jennifer Welsh calls out Marco Rubio as the most sycophantic, noting he “used to know better” but now exhibits “American weakness” and is “breakable.”
  • Pete Hegseth is dismissed as a “walking, breathing embodiment” of Ivy League mediocrity: “Even Ivy League schools can produce dipshits. And Pete Hegseth is a walking, breathing embodiment of that.” (Jennifer Welsh, 05:18)
  • The panel ridicules the ritualistic public praise at cabinet meetings:

    “Every six sentences is praising Donald Trump.” — Jennifer Welsh [06:45]

• [07:58] Autocrat Psychology:

  • Joanna references Ruth Ben-Ghiat on autocrats deliberately choosing “easy to break” followers.
  • Marco Rubio is used as an example of public humiliation as a control tactic; Welsh refers to it as a “humiliation ritual.”

• [08:56] Ethical Bankruptcy:

  • The cabinet is portrayed as “the largest collection of broken people in our lifetime…untreated, broken people on full display.” — Jennifer Welsh [09:46]
  • Trump relishes surrounding himself with “losers” who enable his need for dominance and adulation.

2. The Power, Grift & Vanity of the Rich

• [11:05] Disposable Billionaire Friends:
  • Trump’s relationships with wealthy cabinet members are seen as disposable and transactional. Even billionaires are reduced to sycophants:

    “These people are completely disposable at any minute. And they know this, which is why they humiliate themselves on national television.” — Jennifer Welsh [11:18]

• [12:12] The Pointlessness of Billionaire Bootlicking:
  • Jeff Bezos’s public support for Trump is mocked as “objectively false, objectively an idiotic, detached, obsequious statement.” — Jennifer Welsh
  • Joanna criticizes the performative wealth and superficial guest lists of the ultra-rich, contrasting Bezos’s wedding party with MacKenzie Scott Bezos’s low-profile philanthropy.

3. Women and Power Dynamics in Trump’s Cabinet

• [17:50] Cabinet Tumult:
  • Four women have now left the Cabinet (three fired, one resignation). Panel views the instability as part of “rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic,” signaling deeper dysfunction.
  • Jennifer Welsh warns about the dangers of “dismantling everything that we hold dear. Institutions. The swamp that he talked about, he’s installing a real swamp.” [18:18]

4. Political Implications: Midterms, Retribution, & Red States

• [18:52] Trump’s Disinterest in the Midterms:
  • Trump’s indifference to the midterms is interpreted as a tell of impending defeat:

    “He is in his deathbed confession era, so some truth starts to get out…he’s acknowledging that there is going to be a blue tsunami.” — Jennifer Welsh [19:26]

  • Welsh remains concerned about state-level interference, especially in Texas: “I’m very worried… Not cheating for him because we know he’s gonna make the phone calls. We know that from Trump 1.0.” [20:58]
• [21:34] Moral Collapse:
  • MAGA’s tolerance for sexual misconduct is denounced as a “feature, not a bug.”

5. Kurt Anderson: The “Fuckening of America” & Trump as Cultural Farce

• [25:13] Bread, Circuses, and UFC on the White House Lawn:
  • Kurt Anderson critiques Trump’s obsession with spectacle:

    “Bread and circuses, as has been said for thousands of years, is fine if you’ve got the bread, but just the circus alone…” — Kurt Anderson [41:10]

  • Trump is described as debasing culture by turning national celebrations into MAGA-whipped media circuses.
  • The UFC fight on the White House South Lawn for America 250 is mocked as a new low.
• [30:59] Trump’s Character Always Obvious:
  • Anderson recounts mocking Trump in Spy magazine in the ’80s:

    “All of his features, salient features today: the braggart, the bully, the liar, all of it. The craving to the point of what looks like addiction to me. Attention. All of those things…” [30:59]

  • Trump as the “Wizard of Odds” from a 1991 Mad Magazine cartoon—eerily prescient about grift, cynicism, and even his ties to Epstein.

6. Stephanie Rule: The Economic Fallout of Trump’s War in Iran & Grift

• [46:48] War & Inflation:
  • Trump’s Iran war, predicted to be “over in five days,” creates jet fuel shortages, price hikes at the pump, global inflation, and a K-shaped recovery:

    “You cannot lie to the American people or any people about our lived experience. My mother knows exactly how much her groceries cost, how much her gas cost…” — Stephanie Rule [48:19]

  • The disjuncture between booming tech stocks and everyday American struggles inflames populist anger.
• [51:29] Emergence of American Oligarchs:
  • The panel calls out the birth of an American oligarchy, with tech billionaires and financiers wielding unprecedented influence:

    “…while one might say, well, I’m mad that they’re so rich, but what does that have to do with my life? Here’s where it does…now that investor cloud is donating so much money to these campaigns…” — Stephanie Rule [51:34]

  • “Eat the rich” sentiment is increasingly bipartisan as the working class feels the squeeze.
• [53:43] “Big Beautiful Bill” and Healthcare:
  • The signature Trump bill funneled wealth upward and hiked healthcare premiums, fueling anti-incumbent resentment likely to affect the midterms.
  • Rule insists the Democrats must focus on “affordability and accountability”:

    “This election is about affordability and accountability. Here’s what we are going to do to make your life more affordable and here’s what we’re going to do to actually demand accountability.” — Stephanie Rule [55:25]

• [56:49] Corruption as Daily Reality:
  • Grift and self-dealing—especially in contracts, pardons, and crypto—are so omnipresent they risk being normalized.

7. The Disintegration of Institutional Norms

• [60:15] Sycophancy Among Businessmen:
  • Howard Lutnick and Scott Besant, once nominally independent financiers, have been reduced to fawning lackeys:

    “Howard is a salesman. Howard is not an economist. Howard is a salesman…when people say that…why does Scott get tongue tied on TV? I think he’s tongue tied…because he knows many times, when he’s on TV, he’s not being honest. Certainly not when he talks about tariffs, that’s for sure.” — Stephanie Rule [60:29]

  • The lesson: loyalty trumps competence.
• [62:52] Eroding Checks and Balances:
  • Federal Reserve independence is at risk as loyalists replace professionals.
  • Trump’s inner circle now filled with ideological devotees (e.g. Peter Navarro), contrasting with the more professional first-term cabinet.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Every six sentences is praising Donald Trump. I mean, what an indictment on the entire cabinet…”
  — Jennifer Welsh [06:45]

• “These people are completely disposable at any minute. And they know this, which is why they humiliate themselves on national television at these cabinet meetings.”
  — Jennifer Welsh [11:18]

• “The bad side was kept in check by the Enlightenment founders…until the last half century or so when the fetters came off and things kind of went off the rails.”
  — Kurt Anderson [33:47]

• “Bread and circuses…is fine if you’ve got the bread, but just the circus alone…while I can’t afford meat at the grocery store. That doesn’t go down so well.”
  — Kurt Anderson [41:10]

• “You cannot lie to the American people or any people about our lived experience. My mother knows exactly how much her groceries cost, how much her gas cost.”
  — Stephanie Rule [48:19]

• “The number one job qualification in Trump’s second term is loyalty to Trump.”
  — Stephanie Rule [61:16]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:07] – Jennifer Welsh on Cabinet sycophancy (Marco Rubio, Pete Hegseth)
• [07:58] – Discussion of autocrats choosing obsequious followers
• [11:05] – Trump’s relationships with wealthy appointees
• [18:52] – Trump’s indifference to the midterms and predictions of a “blue tsunami”
• [25:13] – Kurt Anderson on Trump’s circus culture and the UFC “celebration”
• [30:59] – Anderson recalls early coverage of Trump’s character in Spy Magazine
• [41:10] – “Bread and circuses” and Trump’s grifting incompetence
• [46:48] – Stephanie Rule on economic fallout from Trump’s Iran war
• [51:29] – Rule: rise of American oligarchy and populist resentment
• [53:43] – Impact of the “big beautiful bill” on voters
• [55:25] – “Affordability and accountability” as keys for Democrats
• [60:15] – Sycophancy in business and government personnel

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

The episode is unsparing, witty, and deeply critical—often blending gallows humor with political and cultural analysis. While the chaos and corruption at the heart of Trump’s second term seem almost cartoonish, the panel insists the stakes—erosion of norms, enrichment of the few, and rising populist rage—are all too real. Trump’s blend of incompetence and opportunism, amplified by a cast of easily manipulated loyalists, is not just a spectacle but a slow-moving national catastrophe. And yet, their hope for correction lies in public recognition of the grift, the blue wave building for the midterms, and the refusal of ordinary Americans to keep playing along.

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This summary captures the full scope and character of the episode, rendering it informative, entertaining, and accessible for those who missed the conversation.

Transcript

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[Jennifer Welsh]

collect of broken people in our lifetime. These are all untreated broken people on full display. It's flagrant incompetence on full display and I think Trump loves it.

[Kurt Anderson]

Failing at even inconsequential stuff like the Great American State Fair feeds the correct view that, wow, he's kind of incompetent. Bread and circuses, as has been said leaders for thousands of years, is fine if you've got the bread, but just the circus alone. And giant ballrooms for rich people. And giant tax benefits for rich people. And giant crypto scams for rich people. While I can't afford meat at the grocery store, that doesn't go down so well.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily beast podcast. Happy 4th of July weekend to our American viewers and listeners. America 250. I am gonna break out into Alexis Wilkins songs, if I could remember any. Maybe it's Lee Greenwood. Anyway, we're bringing you a very special episode of the Daily Beast podcast today, featuring some of my favorite conversations from our fan favorites. But before we dive into the show, you know what's coming. Please take a moment to share this podcast with your friends, invite them to subscribe to The Daily Beasts YouTube YouTube channel, and you can become a friend of the Beast, which has all sorts of special perks. So you'll be hearing first today from Jennifer Welsh. She's the co host of the hit podcast I've had it, and one of our favorite guests on the Daily Beast podcast. She explains why she thinks Trump is in his deathbed confession era and saying what he really feels about his cabinet members. Her thoughts on the upcoming midterms, and why she's pretty predicting a blue tsunami. One important note, this conversation was actually recorded in late May, right after Donald Trump wrapped up a particularly sycophantic Cabinet meeting. So sycophantic even he didn't fall asleep in it. Which is why we unpack it at the top of this chat. Jen Welsh, I'm so excited to see you. I'm so excited you're here in the studio. There's no one I'd rather talk to. I. I thought we could go round the Cabinet table and you could tell me who you thought in yesterday's meeting was the most sycophantic.

[Jennifer Welsh]

Okay, I have to go with Marco Rubio because he knows better.

[Joanna Coles]

Does he know better?

[Jennifer Welsh]

He used to.

[Joanna Coles]

He used to. He used to know better.

[Jennifer Welsh]

Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

But the fact that he's now as obsequious as he is, does that mean. Does that cancel everything he's done before?

[Jennifer Welsh]

Yes, I think we have to cancel everything they've done before.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Jennifer Welsh]

Because then it means he didn't believe in anything he had done before. He didn't believe in his stance that Vladimir Putin and Russia were not our friends. And now he's over in Alaska while Trump's standing on the red carpet with military leaders rolling out Red carpet for Vladimir Putin and Trump standing there clapping like a seal. Marco Rubio looks starstruck when he meets him, and it's like American weakness. Marco Rubio is one of the weakest members of that administration. Because he's so breakable.

[Joanna Coles]

He's so breakable. Okay, what about Pete Hegseth?

[Jennifer Welsh]

Pete Hegseth is just not very smart.

[Joanna Coles]

And yet he went to Princeton. How can he not be smart if he went to Princeton?

[Jennifer Welsh]

A lot of the people in this administration are, sadly, in an indictment on Ivy League. A lot of them are really well educated. But I think even Ivy League schools can produce dipshits. And Pete Hegseth is a walking, breathing embodiment of that. Maybe he's a good test taker. Maybe he's a responsible studier but critical thinker, great mind. He's none of these things. He's a Fox News narcissist that has inner child issues. He needs to go off and work on little Pete.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Jennifer Welsh]

Write letters to himself, to his inner child with his non dominant hand and figure out what is so broken in him instead of acting out all of his brokenness onto the American public.

[Joanna Coles]

What then? Talking about writing notes to himself. I'm always fascinated, you know, when the camera manages to get the notes they've been writing. Scott Bessant resilience and then Operation Economic Fury with a little arrow by it. So he's writing himself notes so he knows what note to hit with the president.

[Jennifer Welsh]

Yeah, I mean, you know, Scott Besant is one of these gay men that is carrying water for the patriarchy and he's gonna be one of the first to drown. And of course he has a bank account that could choke a bull. And so that is. That parachutes him a lot. But. Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

What's he got? Like 600, 700 million? I think it's not quite a billionaire.

[Jennifer Welsh]

Yeah, I mean he's got enough. I mean in a pinch he's going to be fine. Right. But it's fascinating to me how they have talking points. They have to praise the President. I think I saw a report. I can remember it was the New York Times or Washington Post. They analyzed all of the cabinet members speeches. Yes, one time every six sentences is praising Donald Trump. I mean, what an indictment on the entire cabinet that every six sentences. Can you imagine if we're podcasting Joanna, that lipstick looks great on you.

[Joanna Coles]

You could do that though. I would be fine if you did that.

[Jennifer Welsh]

I need to atone for calling you Joanna.

[Joanna Coles]

You do, you do. You need to attend. Dinner is on you next time.

[Stephanie Rule]

That's right.

[Joanna Coles]

But if you're in the room, I mean we've all been in corporate meetings like this where. Or you know, from your days in television, you know, from your days as an interior designer. The obsequiousness and watching other people being obsequious and them trying to out flatter each other, it just seems pathetic.

[Jennifer Welsh]

It really is pathetic. Ruth Ben Guyot, she is a professor at nyu, a scholar on autocrats and she says this is a feature of dictators of autocrats. They pick people that are easy to break. They pick people intentionally that are obsequious.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, hold on. Easy to break. What does it mean, easy to break?

[Jennifer Welsh]

So, like, look at Marco Rubio and the humiliation ritual that they do with him. Did you see where they recently had him on Air Force One in the same Nike outfit that Nicholas Maduro was wearing when they captured him?

[Joanna Coles]

I did not see that.

[Jennifer Welsh]

They put Marco Rubio in the same jumpsuit. And that Steven Chung that runs.

[Joanna Coles]

Right, the Toms guy, he took a

[Jennifer Welsh]

photograph of Lil Marco and posted it on the White House. Social media stuff, which is a humiliation ritual. They put him in those shoes that are too big for him.

[Joanna Coles]

Right, the Florsheim $148 shoes.

[Jennifer Welsh]

Yes. And so these people are very easy to break. Like Kristi Noem, the fact that she had murdered her dog and nobody ever talks about the goat. Joanna, she also shot a goat. And then that is a sign for Trump that, oh, she's perfect for me. You know, he says himself, I don't want to hang around with winners. I don't want to hear somebody talk about how great they are. I love hanging out with losers. And I say that Trump is entering his deathbed confession era. So he's starting to say all of the quiet parts out loud. He's saying, I love hanging out with losers. He likes to be the, you know, the big dick in charge. He wants everybody to kiss his ass, and they don't feel secondhand embarrassment or the cringiness of all of that.

[Joanna Coles]

So. And why don't they? Why are they just glad to be in the room?

[Jennifer Welsh]

Yes. I think these are. This is the largest collection of broken people in our lifetime. This is. You've never seen a group of such broken people before. This is like if you went to a rehab facility with a triple diagnosis of a personality disorder, Meth addiction, inner childhood trauma, all of this.

[Joanna Coles]

Gambling addicts, sex addicts gambling with their futures.

[Stephanie Rule]

Yes.

[Jennifer Welsh]

And you're sitting around in the circle, and I have experience with this. My husband is in recovery, and so I've been to a family week, and no disrespect to anybody who is struggling with addiction or anything, but these are all untreated, broken people on full display. It's flagrant incompetence on full display, and I think Trump loves it. By the time I hit my 50s, I'd learned a few things, like how family is precious, work can always wait, and 99% of people over 50 already have the virus that causes shingles. Not everyone at risk will develop it, but I did. The painful blistering rash disrupted my Life for weeks. Don't learn about your shingles. Risk the hard way. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist today. Sponsored by gsk.

[Joanna Coles]

Where do you think he is with people like Howard Lutnig and Besant who've made a lot of money? I mean. Cause he admires them in a different way. Doesn't he? Doesn't he love rich people?

[Jennifer Welsh]

He loves rich people, but I think he's also jealous of rich people. I think they're. These people are completely disposable at any minute. And they know this, which is why they humiliate themselves on national television at these cabinet meetings. They know if I do not say, Trump is so great, he has unleashed the golden age, all of this, this jet stream of bullshit. They know that he will pick them up and put him in the trash can. And so I don't think any of his relationships have any depth or any meaning. Meaning other than you tell me how great I am, right? You get humiliated even for one of the richest men on the planet. Let's talk about Jeff Bezos and the interview that he had recently where he said Trump was more mature, right. And more measured.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. In the second term and he had some good ideas.

[Jennifer Welsh]

Objectively false. Objectively an idiotic, detached, obsequious statement. And then I'm like, there's never been a billionaire class against the having billions of dollars than this existing class of billionaires. When I used to hear this six or seven years ago, billionaires shouldn't exist. I didn't think that much of it, whatever. And they made their money. I get it now. There's something that happens when you exploit people that much. You become so broken that then you get to have all this fuck you money and you're kissing Donald Trump's ass. Like, what's the point of it, right?

[Joanna Coles]

What's the point? The other thing I think is interesting about Jeff Bezos and I go back and forth on this because I can't live without Amazon, is the showing off of the money. There is something so antagonistic about showing off in the way that he and Lauren do you remember the foam party? And you're like, and also if you are the second richest, third richest, who cares person in the world, why would you have that guest list to your wedding? You could have anybody, you could have Nobel winning scientists, you could have mathematicians, you could have astronauts, you could have the people that have changed humanity. And instead you go for reality television stars who've really contributed very little apart from skim. Not bad. Skims is pretty Good. But apart from skims, have contributed very little. You have Leo DiCaprio, who looks so embarrassed to be there. He's got a baseball cap over his face. He's trying not to be there, but also wanting to be there. And I just think, why wouldn't you reach higher?

[Jennifer Welsh]

Because Lauren Sanchez Bezos, she likes to thirst trap. These are vapid people. It's not even that deep. Do we think he's even really good friends with the people on the guest list?

[Joanna Coles]

No, of course not. They didn't know some of the people on the guest list. Right.

[Jennifer Welsh]

She had to buy her way into the Met Gala and it is so pathetic that she wants to be famous. And in her pursuit of being famous, they're now infamous is her.

[Joanna Coles]

Because you've probably met Lauren. I've met Lauren.

[Jennifer Welsh]

I've never met her.

[Joanna Coles]

She's actually very warm and funny and smart when you meet her in real life. And there's a big disconnect between that and the way she somehow appears as a kind of trophy bimbo of the highest order. And yet actually when you talk to her, she's funny, she's warm, she's clever, she's not like that. And I don't know why she's cultivating that image of someone. The sort of thong snapping nature of it all I just find odd.

[Jennifer Welsh]

I think it's really odd. Especially when you contrast it with his ex wife, MacKenzie Scott Bezos, who is spending money hand over fist on lifting up the marginalized. She sent tens of millions of dollars to Mills on Wheels. Hasn't done one interview about it. She spent hundreds of millions in HBCUs. She's an incredible philanthropist. She's what we think we would do if we had billions of dollars.

[Joanna Coles]

Do you think it's just. I can't believe we've now got into comparing Jeff Bezos wives. But there's something interesting about how much fun it looks like he and Lauren have, even though they're screamingly showing off. Which to me just feels like, why do you need to do this? Why do you need the attention? It's only going to be bad for you.

[Jennifer Welsh]

I think, you know, the relationship started in an affair, so it started in very insecure footing. Right, right. So then the. I think it was the Enquirer. Didn't they publish.

[Joanna Coles]

Right, National Enquirer published.

[Jennifer Welsh]

Yeah, the text messages and.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I think it published a bit more than the text messages. Yeah.

[Jennifer Welsh]

And it was, you know, I think that's embarrassing. She's the other woman. And as, as you know, you can meet people that in social settings are confident and warm and engaging, but it doesn't preclude them from being broken or toxic. And her behavior is objectively. It's just not even that deep. It's pick me thirst trap. I mean, she has this opportunity. This man has money that's unfathomable to stand up for. Let's just say the LGBTQ community. What would this woman be wearing? I bet she has four or five gay men that help her throughout all the stuff that she goes to. And she and her husband are funding fascism, funding ice. It's repulsive. It's disgusting. And, yes, people on the one hand can be warm, engaging. I mean, clearly, she is. She scored a big fish, but at the same time, she's still broken. She's a broken thirst trap. Who has this moment right now, to me, I'm looking for people that have conviction. There was a guy who won a scholarship a couple nights ago.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, yes, the CBS Scholar.

[Jennifer Welsh]

And he stood up to cbs, a man who doesn't have any money, and he stood there and had conviction about Barry Weiss and the Ellison family completely ripping up 60 minutes and throwing it into the trash. And he does this, but Lauren and Jeff Bezos can't. He gets on television and tells the world that Trump is mature and measured. I mean, it's. The patronizing nature that they're treating the public with is so repulsive to me.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. All right, so let's go back to the Cabinet table. Do you think because four women have now left the Cabinet, three of them fired, in theory, Tulsi Gabbard resigning because of her husband's illness, do you think that's taken on a new frisson of danger for the people round the Cabinet table? Because three people have now been fired and one left under personal circumstances. But everybody said she was about to be fired.

[Jennifer Welsh]

Yeah, I mean, it's hard to. I mean, I think when I think about Trump and what goes on with the Cabinet meetings, I just think rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, like the country is sinking. He is dismantling everything that we hold dear. Institutions. The swamp that he talked about, he's installing a real swamp. So, I don't know. I worry about who would replace these people, because I think they would be worse. But, yeah, I think we're really heading off a cliff.

[Joanna Coles]

Trump said at that Cabinet meeting he doesn't care about the midterms. He's talking about the fact that Iran thinks they can wait him out. He backs Ken Paxton in a move that may well impact the Republicans losing the Senate, because John Cornyn, who's been there for the last three terms, looked like he would win again, possibly against James Tallarico, the Democratic candidate. Is Trump just now sailing off into the wind? I mean, are he and maga, have they just lost the plot at this point?

[Jennifer Welsh]

Completely. I mean, I think we see that Trump is finally doing what he wants to do. He did learn from Trump 1.0. Remember when Susan Collins, the senator from Maine, said, I think he's learned his lesson. He did learn his lesson. He learned how to get rid of guardrails. He learned how to kick out all the adults in the room. And we're in a very, very dangerous place right now. Anyone with him surrounding him, I don't think he gives a shit about the country. He believes the White House is his personally. He believes the treasury is his. He believes the attorney general, the acting attorney general, is his personal attorney, which he used to be. He doesn't. Yeah, Todd Blanche, he doesn't have any instinct that he needs to provide for the country. I do think it's good news because I have said he's in his deathbed confession era, so some truth starts to get out. And when he says, I don't care about the midterms, or we don't know why, but always the opposing party wins during the midterms. And nobody can explain it that to some extent, he's acknowledging that there is going to be a blue tsunami. But I'm very worried about red states because the governor, Governor Abbott, he will very easily send in whatever he needs to do, whether it's state troopers or whomever to just get ballots. And I'm very worried. I think Talarico could win for the first time. I think Texas could deliver a blue senator, but I'm worried about these Democratic governors, Secretary of state, attorney generals that are all Trump sycophants. Not cheating for him because we know he's gonna make the phone calls. We know that from Trump 1.0.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Jennifer Welsh]

We know he'll do that.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And we saw Brad Ratzenberger in Georgia, who held up when Trump said, I need 11. When he called him and said, I need 11,000 votes was like, Mr. President, that's not how it's done. Trump's sort of retribution and vindictiveness against people who stood against him seems to be playing out in the primaries, at

[Jennifer Welsh]

least when you think about the moral collapse on display, broken, breakable people. Let's review. The tolerance of sex crimes is a feature of Maga it is a feature, not a bug. It seems to be a feature that if you're a member of the MAGA movement, you don't care about sex crimes against children, against women, so they sexually assault and then Christians signal to get out of it. It is a feature that MAGA is the party of sexual depravity.

[Joanna Coles]

How will you be celebrating 250 years of America?

[Jennifer Welsh]

I won't be. I know the horror. I patriotism has to be earned, you know, and when we see our government killing civilians in the street, zero investigations. The murderers that killed Renee Good and Alex Preddy, no investigation, no accountability, put back out into this terrorist regime. Ice we have this president who is using all of the good name, whatever good name America had, for his own personal enrichment. You have a Democratic Party that is disjointed. Some of the Democrats play patty cake with the fascists. Some of them actually try to stand up and be an opposition party. I want to celebrate like the kid who got the scholarship, who called out CBS like that. That's the America I like, where we cheer for the underdog, where we shine a light on injustices, where we right wrongs. Right now we're celebrating the villains. There's nothing. It feels so anti American. To celebrate the villain and all of the villains, everybody in the White House, they're all dirty cops right now. So I don't want to celebrate a burst pipe, a dead water heater, the AC calling it quits. Who do you call? Homeserve is an easy way to handle unexpected home repairs with plans covering stuff basic homeowners insurance usually won't. Instead of scrambling for a contractor, you make one call to get the repair process started. Join the millions of customers who trust HomeServe right now. Go to HomeServe.com podcast for 50% less your first year. That's HomeServe.com podcast savings compared to renewal price void in Florida.

[Joanna Coles]

And who brought us an unexpected moment of lobster? Rol? Well, none other than the author, Kurt Anderson, whose book Tale of the Century I love. No one is better than explaining the crazy carnival hucksterism of America and the kind of conspiracy theories and the crazy religion than Kurt, who's tracked it over the last. Well, the last 250 years. No one better to get into the history of it, the madness of it, the brilliance of it, and the magic of what makes up America. All of it. All of it. Kurt Anderson, the man who created the phrase the fuckening of America. And I couldn't help thinking, and I don't know if this is me being a snob, and I want to get into this conversation with you, yes. But when I saw the erection of the octagon on the south lawn of the White House for the UFC fight, which Donald Trump has chosen as his cultural emblem for the 250th anniversary of America, I couldn't help thinking, oh, Kurt Anderson foresaw all this with the fuckening of America. Is that what's going on here?

[Kurt Anderson]

I think in his case, yes, it is. But as I wrote in my book Fantasyland, there is a long history and much of it fine and good. I mean, America is this motley creation of ordinary people and small d Democratic multitudes, right? So it's not all bad. And I love country music and I like boxing and, you know, so it's not exactly a snobbish, you know, oh, my God. Censoriousness. It is this idiotic, highly politicized use of pop culture symbols, in this case, in this really debasing way. I don't know if you saw the movie Idiocracy, if your listeners have, but

[Joanna Coles]

I'm sure lots of people have seen it. I mean, people mention it in the comments all the time.

[Kurt Anderson]

Well, and it was this Mike Judge, great filmmaker, animation guy, whatever director, created this film that I thought in 2006 was terribly over the top about this future where America is run by idiots and morons and kind of reality show carnival, like freaks and show business. Well, here we are in so many ways.

[Joanna Coles]

Indeed.

[Kurt Anderson]

People mention your comments. I, starting in 2017, couldn't get Idiocracy out of my head. Anyway, the president in that movie is this showbiz madman who shoots an automatic weapon around Congress and dresses in this WWE costume, right? And the ufc, by the way. But in addition to. I mean, unlike professional wrestling, it's absolutely real. I mean, these people are really fighting. It's a show, but they're not faking anything.

[Joanna Coles]

Right?

[Kurt Anderson]

So there's that.

[Joanna Coles]

So it's not Hulk Hogan.

[Kurt Anderson]

Well, it's not Hulk Hogan, although there are characters, but it's real and it's legit. But it is a descendant of WWE, WWF, the McMahon Empire of Showbiz wrestling, in which Donald Trump, years ago was a character himself, literally got up on stage, Right.

[Joanna Coles]

I remember he would get under the ropes and get up on stage, fight

[Kurt Anderson]

Vince McMahon and everything. Well, now, of course, his secretary of education is the separated wife of Vince McMahon, sex trafficker and sexual assaulter accused

[Joanna Coles]

Linda McMahon, who's in charge of basically dismantling Linda McMahon. Linda is dismantling the Department of Education.

[Kurt Anderson]

That was her task. The richness of the ironies. She's the secretary of education, this person who made professional wrestling as huge as it became in the 80s and 90s. It's remarkable, but it is this cage match of people who can fight well. But basically its attraction is that it has no rules, has very, very few rules. Unlike boxing or actual normal old fashioned Olympic sports, this sport was invented in the last 30 years for this purpose of show business. So it's, you know, I mean, and

[Joanna Coles]

you can do anything, right? You can kick, you can bite, you

[Kurt Anderson]

can, you can't bite.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, you can't bite. So it has some rules.

[Kurt Anderson]

It has some rules.

[Joanna Coles]

It has some rules.

[Kurt Anderson]

But you can, you can, you know, it's.

[Joanna Coles]

But isn't the goal to get someone in a chokehold so they, so they go to sleep?

[Kurt Anderson]

Well, you know more than I do, if that's, if that's the case. No, I don't think they don't. I think, I don't know. I don't think people become unconscious during the fights. But it is all but that, I think.

[Joanna Coles]

But the symbolism of him using the ultimate fighting sport.

[Kurt Anderson]

Correct.

[Joanna Coles]

To show himself as the ultimate fighter, in theory for the American people, but really for himself.

[Kurt Anderson]

Indeed. And as he's pursuing a stupid war, more than stupid war. A war that is hurting America's place in the world in all kinds of ways and making us look weak and incompetent and having a cartoon figure, Secretary of War out there like some animated character talking about how great war is and how wonderful our war fighters are. It's all of a piece, it's the same comic book understanding of and presentation of the world and the way they think about how the world ought to work.

[Joanna Coles]

So you have written, I mean, you mentioned Fantasyland, which is a fantastic book explaining America's obsession with story land and conspiracy theories and religion. I mean, what did you see in Donald Trump when you first started mocking him at Spy magazine, which you were a co founder of with Graydon Carter? What was it in Trump? And I know we've talked about this before, but I can never get enough of it. And by the way, we have to come onto your lobster roll chic in a moment, which people wrote about in the comments last time you were on. But what was it specifically about Donald that you spotted 40 years ago?

[Kurt Anderson]

All of his features, salient features today. The braggart, the bully, the liar, all of it. The craving to the point of what looks like addiction to me. Attention all of those things, I mean, you know, later on, and while we were doing spies, then the, you know, oh, let's execute these accused defendants who were later exonerated.

[Joanna Coles]

The Central Park Five.

[Kurt Anderson]

Exactly. So it wasn't initially any of any political thing at all. It was just, God, what an asshole this guy is. So that was it. And he was, you know, as we were starting Spy in the mid late 80s, as New York was kind of coming back from bankruptcy and all that, he was. And he was this extraordinary character in this also moment where tabloid newspapers had suddenly become a big deal in New York City especially, as well as American culture. And he got them both to cover him relentlessly. And it was. He was putting on a show and, you know, and, you know, we were, I don't know, at least jeering from the cheap seats, you know, and doing journalism and trying to expose him for the liar, bully, braggart he is when he was still purely a joke. He was just a rich boy who had built a couple of buildings and pretended he was king of the world. And talked about back then, starting in 1988, about being president, starting in our first issue of Spy, where he was saying, I could negotiate the missile, you know, arms control treaty with Russia in an hour. I know everything I need to know about missiles. So he was the guy. He was that guy already.

[Joanna Coles]

Right? And then just explain to me one more time and then we'll come onto your Lobster Roll weekend where what is it about America that produces a character like this and that people even knowingly. We know he's a braggart, we know he's a liar, we know he's a bully. All that stuff still buy into the story of him. What is it about America that needs to live in those narratives?

[Kurt Anderson]

Well, there's various kinds of fictions and narratives that all people, but exceptionally Americans, I mean, we talk about American exceptionalism, and that is one of our extreme ones, is we can make our own truth and live our own stories and invent our own lives. And that's why we come here from other countries. We'll start afresh.

[Joanna Coles]

Guilty as charged.

[Kurt Anderson]

Well, and create a new version of ourself, create a new country. So it was as it was working well, had a good side and occasionally a bad side. The bad side was kept in check by the Enlightenment founders, for instance, and their descendants ever since. Until the last half century or so when the fetters came off and things kind of went off the rails. And so it was as though we had this chronic condition which. Which had its good side and America was fun and America was more interesting than, say, Canada or, you know, it was, you know, and full of interesting oddballs and various, you know, ethnicities and characters and all that. And so, you know, I think, for instance, and in terms of precedents, President Andrew Jackson, great populist Democrat, small D and I guess large D, and I

[Joanna Coles]

think who Trump has sometimes modeled himself on, he has a portrait him in the Oval Office.

[Kurt Anderson]

Well, he was a horrible genocidal person as regards indigenous Americans, for one thing. So I'm sure Trump, to the degree he knows about that, thinks that's great. But he was also this actual military hero, general, everything. Anyway, so he gets elected president and his first inauguration, he opens the White House, you know, the fairly new White House, to anybody who wants to come, you know, and it's 20,000 people show up in a city that probably didn't have a population of 20,000.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And obviously, pre social media.

[Kurt Anderson]

Yes. And pre high security and pre everything.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Kurt Anderson]

And they trash the place, basically. They fill it up. They trash the place. There are too many people. President Jackson himself gets pushed up against the wall. His people, I mean, you know, no Secret Service, then somehow manage to get him out a window and he escapes. And then they lure the crowd out of the White House again, it's winter, it's March with barrels of whiskey and ice cream. So, I mean, talk about an American iconic event. And again, so, you know, we'll see what happens when what's it called, UFC Freedom fights 250 happens or the Great American State Fair thereafter.

[Joanna Coles]

Right, well, so the Great American State Fair is supposed to be this huge concert which several artists agreed to do, thinking it was going to be like a national state fair.

[Kurt Anderson]

Like the bicentennial was 50 years ago.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. So Martina McBride, the Commodores, Florida, Milli Vanilli, who knew they were still going Michaels of Poison. Oh, really?

[Kurt Anderson]

Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. And now it turns out they're all pulling out because, as you say, as you mentioned at the beginning, Trump is able to politicize anything. And they discovered it's actually basically going to be a MAGA concert.

[Kurt Anderson]

Yeah, well, and they immediately pulled out, which has to be a humiliation and embarrassment and causing lots of shouting around the White House and panic because I believe this thing was announced on Wednesday. They started pulling out on Thursday. You know, I mean, so.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Kurt Anderson]

Yeah. One wonders what the conversations between Rick Grinnell, who was part of it, or whomever was organizing this in the White House, and the representatives and agents of these performers, like, as you're suggesting. I'm sure they were told, oh no, it's just, it's the Great, it's the 250th. It's great. It'll just be a national celebration as opposed to inevitably because of what Trump and MAGA and Donald Trump's obsessive posting on his site indicate is that it is indeed a Republican MAGA event and would be and will be. Now it seems a little disingenuous that they had no clue of this inevitability, but maybe they don't pay attention. A lot of people don't pay attention to the news. I don't know. I can imagine people listening to this or watching this can say, oh look, there's so many more important things to talk about. The world economy is being ruined, as we mentioned. America's place in the world is being diminished. There's a horrible war going on that we can't seem to get out of. That made no sense to. And now the choices.

[Joanna Coles]

Hello, we've held up 20% of the world's fuel.

[Kurt Anderson]

Exactly. All that. All these consequential things they could say, why are you talking about this silly stuff? Well, well, it's summer is one reason. But you know, I mean, what's interesting, it's part of it is consequential because it's why heretofore he has been so popular because so many people like him and vote for him, especially not necessarily the hardcore, because hey, this guy is fun. This guy's entertaining. My belief is, and I've seen focus group results to show that it's true is that lots of, say the younger people who don't pay that much attention to news and maybe were even very aware of Trump first term. This guy's running in 23, 24. Hey, this is, this kind of, this guy is interesting. He shakes it up. I like watching him, unlike other politicians, that's been a huge part of his power and success is the entertainment. So talking about his attempts at, at entertainment, at indulging his mania to build and fix the reflecting pool and overpay and a no bid contract for that and all this just all this like, let me do this, let me do this stuff that he can just do and order as opposed to negotiating with Congress to pass legislation or negotiating with Iran to stop this madness, he can just order it done and to see it. So it's consequential in that way because it's part of his governing power has been. But here it is, along with trying to do things that some Republicans are objecting to, like, pay 1.8 billion to people such as the January 6 rioters are substantive things causing problems, but failing at even this inconsequential stuff like the Great American State Fair or, you know, is like, wow, it feeds the correct view that I think is spreading among more and more and more people that, wow, he's kind of incompetent, isn't he? You know, he's not. You know, here we are trying to. This authoritarian who can't even make the trains run on time. You know, it's like, what is the

[Joanna Coles]

benefit to the public? Because the public are willing to forgive all sorts of weirdnesses if there is a benefit. But if there is no benefit, if they're paying higher prices at the pumps, if their neighbors are being picked up by ice.

[Kurt Anderson]

Correct.

[Joanna Coles]

Then things feel destabilized. And I think that's what makes people anxious.

[Kurt Anderson]

Correct. And bread and circuses, as has been said leaders for thousands of years, is fine if you've got the bread, you know, but just the circus alone and giant ballrooms for rich people and giant tax benefits for rich people and giant crypto scams for rich people, while I can't afford meat at the grocery store. That doesn't go down so well.

[Joanna Coles]

One of the things that you tweeted out this week has been knocking around the Internet, but I wanted to just revisit it because it's extraordinarily prescient. It comes from Mad magazine, and it's Donald Trump as the wizard of Odds. When did this come out?

[Kurt Anderson]

January 1991. And, of course, I was well into my adulthood, verging on middle age by then. And so I was unaware of this in Mad. But it's extraordinary. I mean, I was. We were in the middle of doing Spy and. And having our own coverage of showing Trump's bullying and duplicity and corruption. Corruption and deeply cynical kind of criminal view of the world. Well, here he is. The premise is. It's one of these standard, you know, eight panel cartoons about Donald Trump. He is advising. He is the wizard, as in the wizard of Oz, advising the Tin man and the scarecrow and the lion and Dorothy what to do. As, of course, famously the end of the wizard of Oz. The wizard does. And instead of saying, oh, just believe your courage or believe you're smart or all the things happens in the movie, he says, don't be a sucker. You know, you don't need a job. Scarecrow jobs are for suckers or a tin man. You should tin what? You're plastic. You gotta be Replaced in plastic. It goes on and on. Just encouraging him to lie, cheat, steal, and be a cynic with specifics about. You know, it just rings so true. I had no idea. I mean, like, hats off Whoever wrote this 35 years later, right?

[Joanna Coles]

I don't know if you're still alive, whoever did this Mad Men cartoon, but you saw the future. You saw the future. And I want to refer people to your. You tweeted it, right? So you X'd it out. What is your X account called, Kurt?

[Kurt Anderson]

It is called KB Anderson.

[Joanna Coles]

KB Anderson. It's worth going and having a look at the whole thing.

[Kurt Anderson]

Or Blue sky, if you prefer. Blue Sky. And I can't remember what my handle is on that, but there I am.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. I once had a Blue sky account. It's all too, you know, threads, Blue sky, all of it. And then you just. I just.

[Kurt Anderson]

Another subset. You got to get there, too.

[Joanna Coles]

I am on subset, but I'm saying.

[Kurt Anderson]

Oh, on the notes part, they're like,

[Joanna Coles]

oh, you should post this on substack notes.

[Kurt Anderson]

Well, I should.

[Joanna Coles]

You definitely should.

[Kurt Anderson]

Yeah, I should. Maybe I did. Yeah.

[Joanna Coles]

Anyway, wherever you get your socials, you should look for this because it's so prescient, it's alarming.

[Kurt Anderson]

But let me read a bit. I mean, he tells the Scarecrow, jobs are for losers. Scarecrow. Get into junk bonds or phony real estate schemes or get control of a union's pension fund. Better still, become a televangelist. There's a world out there just waiting to be taken.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, there's a world out there just waiting to be.

[Kurt Anderson]

And then at the end, even better, in a thing that, you know, we wouldn't have done in Spy then. Not because it would be too edgy, because I just wasn't that aware of it. He sits, you know, Dorothy down on his knee and basically is grooming her, like, hey, when you're old enough, you know, you know, we can. That was just when his friendship was with Jeffrey Epstein was beginning.

[Joanna Coles]

Of course. No shades of Epstein. I mean, how about this? Stick around and I'll put you up in a penthouse with a limo and ten grand a week in spending money. In a couple of years, after you fill out, you could be my steady bimbo. What an invitation.

[Kurt Anderson]

I mean, you know, I mean, no, it's. It's. It is remarkable.

[Stephanie Rule]

The most memorable gifts aren't found.

[Joanna Coles]

They're made. Zazzle is a custom marketplace where you pick any product, a mug, a card,

[Stephanie Rule]

a tote, a phone case, and make it personal. A photo, a name, an Inside joke,

[Jennifer Welsh]

the kind of gift that actually fits the person.

[Stephanie Rule]

That's what 30 million customers have been

[Jennifer Welsh]

coming back to Zazzle for over 20

[Joanna Coles]

years to find right now.

[Stephanie Rule]

Save 25% on your first [e-mail]. that's zazzle.com make it zamazing.

[Joanna Coles]

And then we have Stephanie Rule, the new host of Money, Power and Politics on Ms. Now, who really understands how this war has impacted inflation, which Donald Trump says he doesn't really care about, but I think he probably does care about it. And we know that Republicans out there standing for election, again, really care about it. Nobody's better than Stephanie in explaining it. So let's get into it and how the grift. Yes, the grift. The grift may come for Donald Trump in the end. Stephanie, you're a brilliant observer of the economy. Trump's war in Iran seems to have had much more of an impact than he would have expected, not least because the Iranians have closed the Strait of Hormuz, something that any basic war gaming would have shown you was about to happen. What is the impact on the American economy first? And then let's talk about the global

[Stephanie Rule]

economy and then let's talk about the market, because we have always said the market and the economy are not the same thing, but now more than ever. And as soon as he launched into this, every big investor I spoke to was like, this isn't going to last more than five days. And I mean big sophisticated investors. And the funny thing is they continue to buy his line the whole time. Every time you talk to someone, they're basically like, I just talked to him or I just talked to Howard or I just talked to Scott Besant. They're wrapping this thing up. Trump very clearly wants to wrap this up.

[Joanna Coles]

Of course he does. He jumped into this. He promised us to do a forever war.

[Stephanie Rule]

He jumped into this ignoring intelligence, which is why our NATO allies said, we're not jumping in with you. You didn't tell us you ignored intelligence. He thought this could be another victory, like Venezuela was. I saw the President the day of the State of the Union. I had lunch at the White House and the President has sort of just come off. It was right around the time of Venezuela, and he was sort of, you know, he loves talking about the strength of the military and the beautiful soldiers and their might. And that was joyful for him. Right? You had people in Venezuela partying, you know, celebrating in the streets here. I mean, all over the world. He wanted to have that again. And you're actually Watching him now try to leapfrog over Iran and talk about, well, guess what, Cuba is right around the corner. You hear it from Marco Rubio.

[Joanna Coles]

Leapfrog for Iran. What a great. So talk to me about the impact of it, because this is not a war that's being measured in body bags. It's being measured in the price at the pump.

[Stephanie Rule]

And look at the price of the pump, not just here, but around the world. Like we're actually seeing jet fuel shortages around the world. We see gas prices have gone down a little, but they're still very high. Food prices are high. Talk to the American farmer, talk to the American farmer. Who needs diesel, which is high, who needs fertilizer, which is high. And the President, you know, he wants to talk like, well, affordability is an old fashioned term. It's not important. This is really hurting the President. I would argue that economically or even across the board before Iran, I think the President was really happy. I think he existed very much in a gilded cage at the White House and at Mar a Lago, surrounded by an administration who truly bows at his altar, and surrounded by business people who are making an extraordinary amount of money, whether on their own or they've got government contracts now. But that's who's rolling at Mar A Lago this term. But step away from that and go to the American people. Go to Trump's actual voters, right? Go to my mother, right, who voted for Donald Trump, who she believes Donald Trump when he says there's a caravan of criminals coming from South America and they're going to attack your grandchildren and steal your job. She's gonna believe that cuz she doesn't see it. But you cannot lie to the American people or any people about our lived experience. And we know exact. My mother knows exactly how much her groceries cost, how much her gas cost. And so you're watching all of these Republicans just sort of on pins and needles. How many times have we heard from this White House, Trump's gonna go on an economic tour. He can't. He doesn't have a message. And the market is doing extraordinarily well. Corporate profits are super strong. But even if you look under that hood, it's the massive tech companies, it's the magnificent seven. If you talk to lots of Fortune 500 companies that are not in the tech space, where they're not booming because of AI or they are impacted by the tariffs or mass deportations, many of those companies are suffering. And if we see any sort of puncturing, which I don't necessarily think we will in the AI superpowers, then it's going to be devastating.

[Joanna Coles]

But also only 50% of the American population are in the market. So that's fine for rich people or people who feel that they're taken care of and they have financial security. But we know that the other half don't have even $500 in case of emergency.

[Stephanie Rule]

And we haven't even talked about health care. Right. At the end of last year, before we spent billions and billions and billions on this war, Republicans argument was we do not want to spend a dime continuing expand, you know, on Obamacare subsidies, it's time for them to expire. So we have, there's so much news out there. We don't even talk about the fact that American people have seen their healthcare premiums spike and they are struggling. And what's interesting is we always, we had coming out of COVID right, we had a K shaped economy. The rich were getting richer and the poor were getting poorer. Joanna, this has been supercharged. And I don't just mean the rich. Think about the richest of the rich are so unimaginably wealthy. Now we now have the American oligarchs, right?

[Joanna Coles]

No, we're about to get our first trillionaire with the SpaceX IPO and Elon Musk.

[Stephanie Rule]

And it's not just elon. With the SpaceX IPO, we're going to have a whole slate of new billionaires. And while one might say, well, I'm mad that they're so rich, but what does that have to do with my life? Here's where it does. Because now that investor cloud is donating so much money to these campaigns, right? We're 16 years out from Citizens United where you can now have an unlimited amount of corporate dollars in political campaigns and you've got the wealthiest of the wealthy people. Now that we live in a Donald Trump world who understand that politicians are transactional, Donald Trump is completely transactional. And so, you know, when John Cornyn lost his primary in Texas, people said, well, Ken Paxton's not gonna be as good at raising money.

[Joanna Coles]

Yes, he is.

[Stephanie Rule]

He absolutely is right. When Thomas Massie lost his primary in Kentucky, it was the most expensive primary we've seen. The majority of people writing those big checks have never set a big toe in the state of Kentucky. But now that we have created these massive American oligarchs who have more power and influence than we have ever seen business people have over policymaking, I think this is a game changer. I think this eat the rich sentiment is not being led by A group of Democrats, I think it's being led by Americans who are saying, this country doesn't work for me. And many of those Americans are the original MAGA voters who Donald Trump appealed to because he said, you feel forgotten. You feel that there aren't jobs for you in this country. I'm your guy. And now many of those people who don't necessarily have a political affiliation or not with Donald Trump anymore are just saying, this country, this world, doesn't work. I'm ready to break the system.

[Joanna Coles]

So do you think the impact of the big beautiful bill, which enabled even more money to go to billionaires and high net worth individuals, as they're referred to and took, you know, raised the health care premiums of millions of people and lots of people chose not to renew, as you know, for Obamacare. Do you think that has actually a knock on effect in the midterms?

[Stephanie Rule]

I don't think it has a direct knock on effect. I think your average person, even your informed person, isn't digging that much into the big beautiful bill. But they're just looking at life, right? They're just saying, my life doesn't work for me. And they listen. Journalism, I would say great journalism is alive and well and strong as ever. Every single day there's another story out there about the grift. There's another story out there about World Liberty Financial and the President's crypto business. Or the president suddenly buying thousands and thousands of shares of companies that he just met with, or suddenly saying, you should buy a Dell computer and then Michael dell gets a nine and a half billion dollar government contract and their stock's up 30%. People see that, right? They don't necessarily dial back into what was in the big beautiful bill, what tax breaks were given, but they just say, hold on, you're the person in office, you have more. You now finally have the supreme wealth. You always said you did. A specific group of business people are wealthier beyond belief. And I'm not. This isn't working. And I don't think that's unique to President Trump. Listen, what hurt Joe Biden, what hurt Kamala Harris, is that people were still struggling economically. And they look and see and they say, who's in the White House, and they blame that person. What's unique about Donald Trump is the reason many of these people are struggling economically is a direct result of his policies.

[Joanna Coles]

He also seems to think that people don't care. I mean, he says that people don't care about the grift. We know that he's made at least two, possibly three, or up to $4 billion in this second presidency. And he openly says people don't care, they just don't care.

[Stephanie Rule]

I don't believe that to be true. However, I think there are two things that have to be the Democrats have to be focused on and it's affordability and accountability. Like, he's not wrong. There is such a flood of corruption that we're potentially seeing or grift and a lot of people say will say, like what about Nancy Pelosi stock trading or what about Hunter Biden? Those two examples that I gave are like this compared to the mega grift. Like just even think about the, the presidential pardon industrial complex that we have right now. It's gargantuan. And he's not wrong that people's eyes are glazing over and they can't even follow it all. That's why, I mean, we literally have a segment on our show that we do nightly White House for Sale. Because I wanna make question mark. I wanna make sure every night we're covering it and it's in one cohesive place so we don't forget it. But it is on the Democrats. And I'm not saying I have a tremendous amount of confidence for them to say this election is about affordability and accountability. Here's what we are going to do to make your life more affordable and here's what we're going to do to actually demand accountability. Right. It was Tim Miller who said it. They need to co opt a Trey Gowdy from what Trey Gowdy did with the Benghazi hearings. Democrats need to birth their own Trey Gowdy to say, we're going to look at every single one of these things and we're going to pull you guys in and have hearings.

[Joanna Coles]

It's also what Peter Magyar did in Hungary, right, where he managed to make it clear that the corruption under Viktor Orban actually had an impact on the regular population. Because Orban had had a grip on that country. And yet it was one of his own people that started his own party that was able to connect the population to the corruption and why their lives felt worse.

[Stephanie Rule]

That is the best example. The one CEO we've heard even marginally talk about this was Jamie Dimon. When JP Morgan did not write a check for the ballroom, he said, trump's not always going to be in power. This thing. He didn't say this thing smells to the high heavens. But he said, I don't wanna be in a situation in the Next go around in the next administration when they turn around and they say this is corrupt.

[Joanna Coles]

So when he said that, and I agree, I mean you're like, finally someone is saying something like this and he's, he's very clear about what he thinks. Why does this seem such short termism, especially for the tech guys who are sucking up to Trump like this. Do they not think there will be a Democratic president in their future?

[Stephanie Rule]

So I would say two things. So first, I think when Jamie Dimon said that and we said why don't other people do that? Well, they don't because soon after saying that, Trump sued Jamie Dimon I think to the tune of $5 billion JPMorgan Morgan and him personally.

[Joanna Coles]

And that was because they decided to debank him after January 6th. Correct?

[Stephanie Rule]

Correct, correct, correct. Which by the way, if you ever understood sort of the very basic banking rules of kyc, know your client, right? You have to understand the person who's banking with you where they got that money from, where that money was made, how it's being used. And if you cannot answer that question, then you should not be banking with them.

[Joanna Coles]

Things that could have been applied to Jeffrey Epstein when they were banking him. We are moving swiftly on why didn't, why don't more of the tech people seem to think like there's gonna be a Democrat in the House at some point I'm gonna have to account for this.

[Stephanie Rule]

So I think they have never had so much access to power. They have never had so much control. Right. I mean I almost said Donald Trump doesn't know what AI stands for, but it's extraordinary.

[Joanna Coles]

Education Secretary did what it stood for. He thought it was Linda McMahon.

[Stephanie Rule]

Think about how much influence they have been able to have over the President. AI is just, AI is going to change every element of the way that we live. And Donald Trump is basically given carte blanche in terms of regulation. And so I think like they're going to go while the going is good. And I think many of them in the Elon Musk averse have so much power and influence. I don't know that they think it's going to change. And listen, I don't know that Democrats have clearly shown what accountability looks like. Look no further than social media regulation. Okay? Almost more than laying blame to the billionaires or the business people, I lay it on lawmakers because lawmakers, not across the board, but, but for a quick check of $25,000 here and $25,000 there, show me the massive legislation that you saw either party pass over the last 15 years, when it comes to social media.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah.

[Stephanie Rule]

An industry that we know has had devastating impact on our lives.

[Joanna Coles]

So you knew both Scott Besant and Howard Lutnick before they became treasury and Commerce Secretary, respectively. Were you surprised at how sycophantic they've become?

[Stephanie Rule]

This is a great question. I mean, Howard is a salesman. Howard is not an economist. Howard is a salesman. And Cantor Fitzgerald is a middleman. It's a broker's broker. I mean, I would say I'm more surprised by Scott when people say that. Like, why does Scott get tongue tied on tv? I think he's tongue tied on TV because he knows many times when he's on tv, he's not being honest. Certainly not when he talks about tariffs. That's for sure.

[Joanna Coles]

I think when they sit around the table and they go, oh, Mr. President, you are the greatest president. Oh, Mr. President, how can I lick you more?

[Stephanie Rule]

Correct.

[Joanna Coles]

I was just surprised by that. Yes.

[Stephanie Rule]

No, it's stunning to see it. That's when I'm like, wait, are we in North Korea? But we should look no further than the transition. Right. Howard Lutnick and Linda McMahon, who wanted to be the Commerce Secretary before Howard, said, ba boom. He said very clearly, the number one job qualification in Trump's second term is loyalty to Trump. So while when I watch it, I watch in disbelief that these people who have lots of credibility or lots of success would bend. Like, I'm like, why would. You know you're on television. Like, why would you do that? But I think we knew that going in. I mean, it was a knife fight for all these people to get these positions, and now that they have them, they're not letting go. If you think back to Trump's first term, there was one meeting where he brought these CEOs in the business roundtable. Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Stephanie Rule]

And it was not the official business roundtable, but it was like, his business advisors. Right. And I remember Jeff Immelt was there, and he made.

[Joanna Coles]

Who at the time was running George,

[Stephanie Rule]

and he made Jeff tell the. Jeff. It was like, tell them the story

[Joanna Coles]

of when I hit a hole in one.

[Stephanie Rule]

Actually, it was two holes in one that day. And I remember watching, like, Jeff Immelt just like, I'm watching his face as he's just like, yes, Mr. You know what I mean? He's like, I'm at the White House. What am I gonna do? And I remember that day being like, these CEOs are not gonna last on these councils. And sure enough, they didn't. That is such a Quaint distant memory of like, yes, you hit a hole in one now. It's like, when did you get great at being perfect, Mr. President? And they all just go around the table and say it.

[Joanna Coles]

It's just remarkable. So he's gone after the Fed has famously gone after Chairman Powell, gone after Lisa Cook on the Fed board, set the DOJ on her to try and find discrepancies in how she claimed things for her mortgage. Kevin Walsh is the new Fed chairman. I know him, right. So does the same thing happen to him? Is he going to be able to maintain the independence of the Fed?

[Stephanie Rule]

So he's in a more unique position than Scott Besant and Howard Lutnick, that he's not part of the. He's not part of the administration. Right. He is part of the Fed. Now, Kevin war should Bush does want to make big changes to the Fed, Right. It was a blood sport getting this position. He wanted it before he got what he wanted. If I were a betting woman, it was funny when his confirmation was getting delayed and delayed, I thought, I kept saying, I'm like, I bet he wants it delayed. I bet he would love for this thing to get. The further it gets to the midterms or past the midterms when he actually has a little bit of room. I don't know what he's going to do, but it's going to be very tricky for him. Because inflation being where it is, Donald Trump wanting rates to get cut and inflation being where it is, this isn't even if Kevin Wash wanted to do it pre war in Iran, even if he wanted to do it six months ago. It's tricky, but it's funny. Like people dog, especially like on social media, people will dog on me because remember when you said Scott Besant was qualified? Scott Besant was qualified. He is qualified. It doesn't mean he's doing the job. Right. It doesn't mean he's doing the job. Honestly, Kevin Warsh is super qualified to do this job. He's highly respected. Right. I mean, he's been in the government before. He spent the last number of years as Stan Druckenmiller's partner. Stan is one of the greatest living investors that I can even think of. What Kevin is going to do, how he is going to manage the pressures of Trump, that remains to be seen.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and we've talked a lot on this podcast about the real skill of surviving around Trump is managing Trump is not thinking that you should actually do the job in hand. It's all about how you Manage him. And the job is almost immaterial.

[Stephanie Rule]

And that's actually when you think back to Trump 1.0, there's the books and the stories of, you know, them, you know, playing three card Monty, you know, Gary Cohn and Jared and Mnuchin with like, like trying to hide some, you know, they don't want Trump to see this or they don't want Trump to

[Joanna Coles]

taking things literally off his desk.

[Stephanie Rule]

Literally off his desk. But part of that is those were guys who were qualified for those jobs. They understand the content at hand. We're in a different world. The number one, and I'm not talking about Kevin Warsh, I'm people in the administration. The number one qualification, as I said, was loyalty to Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Stephanie Rule]

So if that's your number one skill set, I'm not even sure that you know what you're gonna push and pull and take from. We don't have the. Remember, Peter Navarro is super close to the President and the President's sons. At this point in Trump 1.0, Gary Cohn and Steven Mnuchin wouldn't even let Peter Navarro work on their teams. They sent him to go work for Wilbur Ross and hope that Wilbur might be napping when he was at work that day. Now you've got the likes of Navarro in the inner, inner circle. And so, so it's funny, many of these people, and remember, Peter Navarro was chosen. Jared Kushner found him doing an Amazon search looking for is there an economist or someone who covers the economy out there whose views mimic Trump's. And that's how they found Navarro.

[Joanna Coles]

And this is on tariffs in particular.

[Stephanie Rule]

On tariffs in particular. And then you remember in Navarro's books he had fake quotes from a person from a made up name, whose name was like a derivation of his name. It was Ron Varro.

[Joanna Coles]

Yes, yes, right.

[Stephanie Rule]

This is my point of like, this is who we're dealing with. So Kevin Warsh is a totally different caliber, a totally different quality. And the Fed does have clear separation. He knows Kevin Warsh knows that the Fed's independence is a crucial part of American exceptionalism and the strength of our economy. It's the reason international investors want to invest their money here. At the same time, he would like to reimagine the Fed and I'm guessing his hope is that his reimagining the Fed aligns somewhat with what Trump wants him to do and he can move forward. We'll see.

[Joanna Coles]

So goodbye from me, from Jen Welsh, from Kurt Lobster Chic Anderson and from Stephanie, money, power, sex, politics, all of it. Rule will be back with David Rothkopf tomorrow and he will start off your week with a bang. If you have been, thank you for joining us. Big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.