A Trump Dissenter Fights for His Political Life

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Daily – "A Trump Dissenter Fights for His Political Life"

Date: May 19, 2026
Host: Michael Barbaro
Guests: Robert Draper (NYT political correspondent), Caitlin O’Keefe (producer)

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores the high-stakes Republican primary in Kentucky’s 4th Congressional District, where long-time incumbent Rep. Thomas Massie—known for his independence and defiance of President Trump—faces a serious challenge from Trump-endorsed Ed Gowrin. The discussion probes what it means to dissent from Trump in today’s Republican Party, how voters are navigating loyalty to both a maverick congressman and an increasingly unpopular president, and the broader implications for GOP unity and American democracy.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background: Trump’s Campaign for Party Discipline

• Trump’s Mission: Trump has launched efforts in the 2026 midterms to remove Republicans who have opposed him, seeking to impose nearly absolute party discipline.
  • “So far, he’s largely succeeded in that goal, taking out Republicans who fought him in Indiana and just a few days ago in Louisiana. And there’s one last revenge race that remains.” (03:33)

2. Why the Massie Race Matters

• Robert Draper: Massie is the most defiant of Trump’s intra-party critics, making this primary a pivotal test of Trump’s control over the GOP.
  • “Thomas Massie… has been more defiant pretty much than all the other Republicans put together. Repeatedly, Massie has defied Trump’s wishes and has seemed cheerfully uncaring what Trump wants him to do.” (03:23)
• Polls indicate an unprecedentedly close race, in contrast to Massie’s previous landslide victories.

3. Massie's Brand of Independence

• Massie’s Defiance:
  • Fiscal absolutist: “No increase in spending for anybody, including our military, including our allies in the Middle East, such as Israel.” (06:45)
  • Opposed U.S. interventions and foreign aid.
  • Eccentric maverick: “A kind of Paul Bunyan aspect… off-the-grid cattle farmer who drinks raw milk.” (06:30-07:31)
• Epstein Files Transparency Battle:
  • Massie championed the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files, directly opposing both Trump and GOP leadership.
  • “Massie’s determination was so great that Trump ultimately had to read the tea leaves and throw his own reluctant support behind the legislation… that forced the DOJ to release those files. That was Massie and Ro Khanna’s legislation.” (08:00)
  • Trump’s loss in this fight was both public and personal.

4. Voter Dilemma: Loyalty to Trump vs. Massie

• Scene: Draper and producer Caitlin O’Keefe attend a packed Massie town hall in Boone County, Kentucky.
  • Standing-room-only crowd; Massie touts his conservative bona fides and achievements, especially his work on the Epstein Files Transparency Act. (11:10–12:31)
  • Massie frames his independence:
    • “If you’re covering up for pedophiles, if you’re trying to spy on Americans without a warrant, if you are bankrupting this country, then I am not voting for that.” (12:08)
  • Notable quote:
    • “When you’re in the legislative branch, you don’t report to the executive branch. I report to 750,000 of you.” (13:06)

Notable Audience Moments

• Elizabeth Smith (14:15):
  • Torn between loyalty to Trump and appreciation for Massie.
  • “Please give me a reason to vote for you this time.”
  • Massie’s response:
    • “First of all, I’m not running against Donald Trump… If I win this race, I guarantee you he will come right back around.” (15:24–15:33)
• Mark Bragde Exchange (16:00):
  • Represents hard-line Trump supporters; skeptical of Massie’s independence.
  • “He hasn't done anything… but Trump has endorsed him, and that means to me that he will help Trump pass the things that I want done. Okay, that you aren’t doing.” (17:00)
  • A 14-minute exchange as Massie tries to address the tension between “America First” and absolute loyalty to Trump.
  • Massie’s pointed retort:
    • “I don’t give anybody but God that kind of trust.” (19:25)
  • Draper’s takeaway:
    • “The split with the president is clearly registering with voters… There is no room for independence.” (19:57)

5. Gowrin’s Campaign: Unquestioned Loyalty

• Event attended by Draper: Corporate setting, not a public town hall. US Chamber of Commerce endorses Ed Gowrin.
• Gowrin’s Platform:
  • Frames himself as a non-politician, Navy SEAL, and farmer, pressed into service by Trump. (23:32)
  • Central theme: Absolute alignment with President Trump.
    • “I’m proud to stand with President Trump, the Republican Party, his America First and Kentucky Always agenda.” (24:11)
    • “Kentucky deserves in America, Congressman, who will stand with President Trump, the Republican Party and conservatives not against him.” (25:19)
  • Critique of Massie:
    • “But Thomas Massie stood in the way, not just against President Trump, but against the party and America.” (25:05–25:12)

Handling of the ‘Rubber Stamp’ Charge

• When pressed by Draper:

  • Gowrin insists he is not a “yes man,” equating military valor with political independence.
    • “There’s no point of importance about that… I am no rubber stamp. Will never happen… I represent these folks here. I’m their servant leader. And the President knows that.” (27:36–27:52)
  • Yet, when asked about committee preferences:
    • “I’m going to go to Speaker Johnson and the President and J.D. and say, ‘Where do you need me, Coach?’ …Governing is a team sport.” (28:41)
    • Explicit subordination of his congressional agenda to Trump’s priorities.

• On transactions like the Epstein files or Cuba policy, Gowrin repeatedly defers to whatever the President wishes.

6. The Stakes and Implications

• Barbaro’s Analysis:
  • Regardless of outcome, the race sends a chilling message to other Republican dissenters, confirming Trump’s grip.
    • “If Massie loses, Trump will have clearly shown that there’s no tolerance for opposing him… But even if Massie wins, the message to everyone else… is, do you really want to go through what I just went through?” (30:49)
• Draper’s Reflection:
  • This battle for conformity comes with real risks in an election cycle with GOP headwinds. Latest NYT polling puts Democrats up by 10 points on the generic ballot.
    • “To basically wed yourself to Trump is really… rolling the dice that this fidelity… is not going to prove damaging to the entire party.” (31:47)
  • Yet, Trump’s leverage over the party is unprecedented, even in the face of public opinion groundswell against him.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments with Timestamps

• On Massie’s Independence:
  • “When you’re in the legislative branch, you don’t report to the executive branch. I report to 750,000 of you.” — Thomas Massie (13:06)
  • “I don’t give anybody but God that kind of trust.” — Thomas Massie, responding to voters advocating total faith in Trump (19:25)
• On Trump’s Control:
  • “He has always shown a willingness to use that leverage. And that leverage includes no small element of fear.” — Robert Draper (33:14)
• On Voter Split:
  • “Please give me a reason to vote for you this time.” — Elizabeth Smith, Republican primary voter (14:56)
  • “Trump has endorsed him, and that means to me that he will help Trump pass the things that I want done. Okay, that you aren’t doing.” — Mark Bragde, Republican primary voter (17:00)
• On GOP Risks:
  • “To wed yourself to Trump is… rolling the dice that this fidelity is not going to prove damaging to the entire party.” — Robert Draper (31:47)
• On Republican Conformity:
  • “Do not dare trying to break with me, even if I am steering this car off the midterm cliff.” — Michael Barbaro (32:39, paraphrasing Trump’s strategy)

---

Important Episode Timestamps

• 03:23 — Why Massie is distinct among Trump dissenters
• 07:31 — Massie’s most personal break: The Epstein files
• 11:02 — Massie town hall, presentation to constituents
• 13:06 — Massie on legislative independence
• 14:15 — Voter Elizabeth Smith’s dilemma: Massie vs. Trump
• 16:00 — Mark Bragde’s challenge to Massie (14-min exchange)
• 22:43 — Introduction of Ed Gowrin and his campaign event
• 24:11 — Gowrin’s upfront Trump-aligned message
• 27:36 — Gowrin responds to “rubber stamp” accusation
• 28:41 — Gowrin outlines deference to party and Trump in committee assignments
• 30:49 — Barbaro and Draper on wider implications of the race for the GOP
• 31:47 — Draper on the risk of lockstep loyalty to a politically challenged president

---

Conclusion

The episode demonstrates the near-complete transformation of the Republican Party into one where dissent—however grounded in conservative principle—is suppressed by the will of Donald Trump. Whether Massie survives this challenge or falls, the message is that party independence is costly, and ideological conformity to the president is the new currency in Republican primaries. Yet, as Draper and Barbaro note, that conformity may be coming at the expense of the party's broader electoral viability, foreshadowing turbulent political waters ahead.

---

Transcript

[Apple Card Announcer]

This message is brought to you by Apple Card. For a limited time, when you get a new Apple card and purchase AirPods Pro 3 at Apple, you can earn back the cost up to 250 daily cash. New AirPods Pro and up to $250 daily cash back. Now that's music to my ears. Subject to credit approval, limitations and spend requirements apply. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs bank usa Salt Lake City Branch Terms and more at Apple Co AirPods from

[Michael Barbaro]

the new York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is the Daily.

[Unidentified Caller/Critic]

You know what the name is? He is the worst person. His name is. What the hell? How did he ever end up in Kentucky?

[Michael Barbaro]

In Kentucky on Tuesday, amid his own record low approval ratings, President Trump is asking Republican primary voters. Trump to reject a Republican congressman that they've elected seven times before.

[Unidentified Caller/Critic]

His name is Thomas Massie.

[Michael Barbaro]

Representative Thomas Massie.

[Unidentified Caller/Critic]

Massie's a complete and total disaster as a congressman and frankly as a human being.

[Michael Barbaro]

A fiercely proud conservative who has broken with Trump on just a handful of votes.

[Unidentified Caller/Critic]

We gotta get rid of this loser. This guy is bad. He's disloyal to the Republican Party, he's disloyal to the people of Kentucky, and most importantly, he is disloyal to the United States of America. And he's got to be voted out of office as soon as possible.

[Michael Barbaro]

Instead, Trump wants Kentucky Republicans to elect his hand picked challenger, Ed Gowron in what has become the most expensive House primary in American history.

[Unidentified Caller/Critic]

On the other hand, Ed Galron has my complete and total endorsement. He's a true American hero and he's a great patriot.

[Michael Barbaro]

Today, Times political correspondent Robert Draper and Daily producer Caitlin o' Keefe travel to Kentucky to find out whether a popular congressman can still dissent from an increasingly unpopular President. It's Tuesday, May 19th.

Robert, welcome back to the Daily.

[Robert Draper]

Thanks for having me back.

[Michael Barbaro]

Anytime.

We have established quite clearly on the show that President Trump has decided to use these midterm primary elections to try to take out his rivals within the Republican Party and impose as much discipline on the party as humanly possible. And so far, he's largely succeeded in that goal, taking out Republicans who fought him in Indiana and just a few days ago in Louisiana. And there's one last revenge race that remains. And in your capacity as a chronicler of the Republican Party and the fights within it, you decided that that race was the most important, or at least the most interesting, which is why I'm talking to you from the place where that race is about to occur. Kentucky why did you decide that that primary was so important?

[Robert Draper]

Largely because Thomas Massie, the seven term incumbent of Kentucky's 4th congressional district, has been more defiant pretty much than all the other Republicans put together. Repeatedly, Massie has defied Trump's wishes and has seemed cheerfully uncaring. What Trump wants him to do.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. There's nothing nuanced or hedging about his brand of I'm doing my own thing here.

[Robert Draper]

Not in the least, no. And as a result of this, Trump has endorsed an opponent against him and is encouraging big Republican donors to back that opponent.

[Michael Barbaro]

And tell us more about that opponent.

[Unidentified Caller/Critic]

Sure.

[Robert Draper]

The man that Trump has handpicked to oppose Thomas Massie is Ed Gowrain, a dairy farmer, Navy SEAL and Trump stalwart who has pledged to stand alongside Trump and help get his agenda passed. This is a familiar landscape for Massie.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Robert Draper]

He's been through this before. In 2018, Trump wanted Massey taken down, and it didn't bear any fruit. But this time, things are a great deal closer, where Massie has comfortably won his primaries, sometimes with 81% of the vote. This time around, the polls suggest that the two candidates are dead even.

[Michael Barbaro]

And what's so interesting to me about this primary is that if ever there was a moment where somebody might defy political gravity and survive this routine onslaught from Trump when he thinks you've dissented too much, it might be Massy in this moment, because of the economy we're in with the inflation we have and the unpopularity of the war that the President started, perhaps, if ever there was a moment for someone to stand up to Trump and actually survive the repercussions, it might be this moment.

[Robert Draper]

If, in fact, Gowrine does win, then this will suggest, among other things, that Trump's stranglehold over the Republican Party remains pretty much absolute. If, on the other. On the other hand, Massie prevails, lives to fight another day, then it may well suggest that at a time when Trump has exerted so much in an effort to take down a candidate, but has failed to do so, that perhaps Trump's grip is not what it once was and may in turn embolden not just Massie, but others like him to challenge a president whose unfavorables are on the rise.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, Robert, remind us how Representative Massie came to be so defiant when it comes to Trump and why the president finds him to be so intolerable.

[Robert Draper]

I think that it's in keeping with the brand that Massie has held up from the outset of his political career. As this Individualist, a confirmed eccentric, a kind of fiscal absolutist, a person who is for individual rights, that he would hold the line on things like no foreign aid. And that includes no carve out exemption for Israel, which almost all the rest

[Michael Barbaro]

of Republicans would find a carve out for.

[Robert Draper]

Yeah, that's exactly right. And so Massie has been viewed really as a sort of darling within certain elements of the Republican Party for being a purist, for basically saying, when I say no increase in spending, I mean no increase in spending for anybody, including our military, including our allies in the Middle east, such as Israel. He's opposed Trump's intervention in both Venezuela and Iran, saying they betray the idea of America first. And so he's gotten by on that for some time. And he doesn't mind being a lone wolf, you know, tends to sit by himself in the House chamber, you know, as sort of this off the grid cattle farmer who drinks raw milk. And so there is a kind of Paul Bunyan aspect to him.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. And of all the ways that Massey, the maverick, the raw milk drinker, decided to go against the president, I think it's safe to say that the one he's gonna be best known for and the one that is probably the most personally upsetting to President Trump is the way he decided to fight the President on Jeffrey Epstein.

[Robert Draper]

That's right. And this has been, I think, particularly vexing for Trump because he was never wholeheartedly for the release of, of the Epstein files, but his electoral base certainly was. And Massie took those desires literally and became the champion of releasing the files. And at a time when Speaker Mike Johnson was being very, very deferential to Trump. If Trump doesn't want them released, that's fine. We'll recess the Congress rather than allow for a vote on the subject. But Massie remained insistent, began to work with a coalition that included the Democrat Ro Khanna, as well as a handful of other Republicans that all happened to be women, and convened hearings, held press conferences with some of the women who were survivors of Epstein and really became the public face of it. Massey's determination was so great that Trump ultimately had to read the tea leaves and throw his own reluctant support behind the legislation, violation of the Epstein Files Transparency act, that in turn forced the Department of Justice to release those files. That was Massie and Ro Khanna's legislation. Trump was against it then. He was for it. But that Trump essentially had to declare defeat was a moment that he clearly did not forget nor forgive Massie for.

[Michael Barbaro]

So you go to Kentucky to try to figure out what that version of being a maverick within Donald Trump's Republican Party looks like to Republican primary voters who are being told by the President to turn out Congressman Massie.

[Robert Draper]

That's right. And I did so because it's really difficult to obtain ground truth in any congressional primary from behind one's desk in Washington, D.C. but particularly it's a complicated endeavor here because this is Trump country, after all. These are people who really, really love the president. And the idea of having a maverick congressman who they also like a great deal, but who is making the President from time to time look bad is not, generally speaking, what voters have in mind. And it's the voters who now are faced with a choice.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Robert Draper]

Their party leader has said, I want you to vote against Massie. I want you to vote for Ed Galrain. And now the question is, how important is that dictate from a president they so admire?

[Ed Gowrin]

So as the press is getting set

[Robert Draper]

up, this is a treat for all of us here in Boone county to

[Audience Member]

have press over this way, maybe.

[Robert Draper]

So about a week before the primary, Caitlin o' Keefe and I went to a Massey event in Boone county in the town of Burlington. This is the northern part of the district. We welcome Mr. Massey. It was an extremely well attended event in the courthouse. Standing room only. Take questions.

[Mark Bragde]

We have a microphone set up here.

[Robert Draper]

How much time do we have? At least 150 or so, folks there.

[Thomas Massie]

I want to start out by saying, telling you what I have got done in the last six months.

[Robert Draper]

And Massey began it with a presentation of sort of his affirmative version of why a person should vote for him.

[Thomas Massie]

First of all, I got a bill passed that has caused Prince Andrew to no longer be a prince, the British ambassador is no longer the ambassador to the United States, and the CEO of the World Economic Forum, that guy had to resign because of the Epstein Files Transparency Act.

[Robert Draper]

He very quickly moved into his advocacy of the release of the Epstein files. And he emphasized that while he is a tried and true Republican who has voted with the Republicans 91% of the time, that those areas in which he has distanced himself or opposed Republican legislative matters, he makes no apologies for.

[Thomas Massie]

If you're covering up for pedophiles, if you're trying to spy on Americans without a warrant, if you are bankrupting this country, then I am not voting for that. And so there are a few times I've had to stand up. And that's why I'm in a race here where it's the most expensive race in the Republican primary in the country. It's the most expensive race in history in Kentucky for congressional race.

[Robert Draper]

Massey made a point also of talking about his opponent, Ed Gowrine.

[Thomas Massie]

I respect that my opponent has military service, but I've seen some congressmen get this wrong when they get elected, they get to Washington, D.C. and they ask,

[Ed Gowrin]

who do I report to?

[Thomas Massie]

Do I report to the Speaker?

[Mark Bragde]

Do I report to the president?

[Robert Draper]

Now, he said, that Gal Ryan is essentially a rubber stamp for President Trump. And if that's what people want, an unflagging supporter who will do whatever Trump wants, then fine. But that's not who Massie ever was or ever will be.

[Thomas Massie]

Well, when you're in the legislative branch, you don't report to the executive branch. I report to 750,000 of you. I'm a direct report to you here in Kentucky. You are my bosses.

[Robert Draper]

And he spoke probably for about 15 minutes or so, and then he immediately opened it up to the audience. You're not just supported here in Kentucky. You are supported in the United States.

[Michael Barbaro]

And what kind of a reception does Massie get there?

[Robert Draper]

Well, many of the comments and questions came from people who are really adoring of Massie. You know, these were people who were really applauding his principles and are very much in lockstep and appreciative of his independence.

[Audience Member]

People complain that we send politicians to Washington, and they're not principled. You stand for your principles, and that's gold to me.

[Robert Draper]

Then came a few audience members who were a little more skeptical.

[Audience Member]

Hi, Congressman Massey. Elizabeth Smith. Unique indictment.

[Robert Draper]

One of them was a woman named Elizabeth Smith.

[Audience Member]

I've got to say, for the first time this election season, I have been

[Robert Draper]

on the desk who said quite plainly, I'm not sure who to vote for.

[Audience Member]

I support the president more than any other time ever in my life, and I truly believe that President Trump is really working tirelessly and tirelessly every day for the American people.

[Robert Draper]

She had supported Massie in the past, but really was an unswerving devotee of President Trump.

[Audience Member]

And people have been saying all these awful things that, oh, you don't support Trump and you don't this. Please give me a reason to vote for you this time.

[Robert Draper]

Okay? And so Elizabeth Smith basically asked Massie, make the case for why I should vote for you when Trump wants me to vote the other way.

[Michael Barbaro]

She's basically saying, help me reconcile a dynamic of me liking you and me liking.

[Robert Draper]

That's right.

[Thomas Massie]

First of all, I'm not running against Donald Trump.

[Robert Draper]

Massie began his reply by reminding Ms. Smith that President Trump is not on the ballot.

[Thomas Massie]

I truly do have respect for his effort and the job he's trying to do. But if I win this race, I guarantee you he will come right back around.

[Robert Draper]

And when he defies the President, it isn't for defiance's sake, but instead to uphold the kind of America first principles that Trump himself ran on. But towards the very end of the Q and A session, another gentleman stood up.

[Mark Bragde]

My name's Mark Bragde.

[Robert Draper]

Who represented an altogether different point of view from the ones we'd been hearing.

[Mark Bragde]

As I see it, the big picture is that of all things going on in the nation, Iran, the economy, politics, DEI wokeness, everything, one person in the whole United States, maybe the world that understands everything, has input to everything, is Donald Trump. He gets more information, more meetings, more everything, and knows more about all of this than probably J.D. vance or anybody in Congress anywhere he does.

[Robert Draper]

The man's basic point was the President knows more than you do. So why aren't you deferring to this man's obvious superiority in the knowledge and intelligence that he has?

[Mark Bragde]

Things like that. Four or five bills that you voted no on that were really important to me, representing me, and you voted no on those. And I was really furious. I've got to be kidding.

[Robert Draper]

He said that? Look, you turned on Trump. Trump is my guy.

[Mark Bragde]

I voted for you. You've run seven times, right? First six times I voted for you because I wanted to. Seven times because you didn't have anybody primary you. This time you got somebody running against you. He hasn't done anything. I really don't know a whole lot about the guy, but Trump has endorsed him, and that means to me that he will help Trump pass the things that I want done. Okay, that you aren't doing.

[Robert Draper]

This exchange lasted for a full 14 minutes.

[Michael Barbaro]

Wow. It's amazing.

[Robert Draper]

I mean, it was really long and at times, kind of boring. Certain people in the audience got up and left, but Massie stood there very patiently, letting the guy have his say and occasionally interrupting him, not with his own statements, but with questions posed kind of Socratically. You're aware, aren't you, that I'm the one who got the Epstein files released and that Trump considered this a borderline act of treason?

[Thomas Massie]

What do you think he learned about the Epstein files that caused him to do a 180 that makes him smarter than. Than the people in this room. They should have been hit.

[Michael Barbaro]

I.

[Mark Bragde]

I agree with pursuing the Epstein project. I want to release, too, but to

[Thomas Massie]

many, he said it was a hostile act.

[Michael Barbaro]

For me to do that, I don't know.

[Mark Bragde]

But to me, if he knows the big picture, there might be things that you don't understand, understand why he said that, that he's not even revealing to us.

[Robert Draper]

Mark said that he had no problem with the release of the files, but seemed to be suggesting that perhaps the president had good reason for resisting the release of them.

[Thomas Massie]

There were over 1,000 girls that got molested, raped, drawn into sex trafficking, recruited at 15 years old, recruited other girls to get raped so that they wouldn't get raped.

[Mark Bragde]

They never. I have no. I have no one that Poppins, what you did actually, Father, go ahead. But I went against Trump, the one

[Thomas Massie]

thing he cared about the most.

[Robert Draper]

What he was doing, in essence, was trying to reconcile his basic view that Massie was in the right with his larger faith in Trump and reconcile in Trump, we trust with America, first principles.

[Mark Bragde]

I believe if he did, there was a reason that he did that he could not tell you or tell the public.

[Thomas Massie]

I don't give any. I don't give anybody but God that kind of trust.

[Robert Draper]

And by the end of it, I'm

[Thomas Massie]

enjoying this one with you.

[Mark Bragde]

Thank you.

[Robert Draper]

Thank you. Massie shook the guy's hand and said that he enjoyed it.

[Michael Barbaro]

I wonder, Robert, what you took from this exchange and really from this entire town hall by the time it was over.

[Robert Draper]

Yeah, Michael. What became clear to me is that for as popular as Thomas Massie has been here in the past and really still is with many people, the split with the president is clearly registering with voters now, whether that's forcing them to reconsider their feelings about President Trump or deciding they aren't going to vote for Massey. They do understand the stakes of this race, which is you are either with Trump or you are against him, and there is no room for independence. What I later learned was that the guy running against Massie, the one who's got Trump's support, he understands that. And in fact, he's bet his entire campaign on it.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

[IBM Announcer]

So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises. So let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now, a global workforce of 300,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions, resolving 94% of of common questions. Not noise. Proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business. IBM.

[Robert Draper]

This podcast is supported by the Propane

[Michael Barbaro]

Education and Research Council America's energy security is on thin ice.

We're challenged by an overburdened electrical grid,

rising energy costs and disruptive severe weather. You could wait until one of these stops you cold. Or you can make a power play with propane. It's affordable, abundant, safe and made in the US Propane is reliable energy even when the grid isn't. Visit propane.compowerplay to gain the ultimate energy advantage.

[Apple Card Announcer]

Protecting your home shouldn't be a headache. Most security Companies make it 1. Trapping you in expensive multi year contracts and requiring service appointments. Simplisafe is better with comprehensive 24. 7 professional monitoring for a fraction of the cost. Customize your system online in minutes and set it up in under an hour. No drilling stress and no long term contracts. Simplisafe award winning security that earns your business every day. Right now get 50% off your [e-mail] thedaily that's half off at simplisafe.com thedaily there's no safe like SimpliSafe.

[Michael Barbaro]

So Robert, you end up spending time with Massie's rival in this race at galrjn. Tell us about that time.

[Robert Draper]

Yes, Caitlin and I, a couple of days after the Massie event, attended a Gal Rhein event. All right, so you guys can come in and start just setting up and bringing it out in about 10 minutes.

[Thomas Massie]

Are they doing a tour of some sort?

[Robert Draper]

And it was kind of an odd event, I have to say. It wasn't attended by voters, but instead took place in a manufacturing plant. Its stated purpose was to. The US Chamber of Commerce announced its official endorsement of Gal RHJN in the presence of a handful of members of the press. Please welcome Ed galrein. So the U.S. chamber guy gave a very quick speech. Well, thank you for that.

[Ed Gowrin]

Can y' all hear me in back, back here? Can you hear me? Okay. I want to thank you for those kind remarks.

[Robert Draper]

Galrand then gave his own 10 or 15 minute talk.

[Michael Barbaro]

And how is he making his case about this candidacy of his?

[Ed Gowrin]

I was 26 years old before I left Kentucky to go off to the Navy SEALS as an officer. I want you to hold that thought. I grew up on the largest dairy farm in the state of Kentucky. Anybody out there know anything about dairy farming?

[Robert Draper]

The first thing that Gowrain did was introduce himself by saying that he's not a politician, that he is from a multi generational farming family, that he won a multitude of bronze stars serving his country as a Navy seal and Then finally, more recently, was pressed into service again by President Trump.

[Ed Gowrin]

I'm proud to stand with President Trump, the Republican Party, his American first and Kentucky always agenda. I added that. And the president said he liked that. When I said that, I told you, I said American first and Kentucky always. I like that, Ed. What he said, President Trump cuts taxes.

[Robert Draper]

And right away it became clear that his support for Trump and for that matter, Trump's support for him is really the message that he's running on. He didn't talk about what committee assignments he would like to have. He didn't talk about America's place in the world. He didn't talk about specific spending bills or really any legislation at all.

[Ed Gowrin]

President Trump needed conservatives in Congress to deliver for the American people and what they voted for.

[Robert Draper]

What what he talked about was Trump.

[Ed Gowrin]

If I remember, nearly 78 million Americans voted for President Trump won 31 states, is that right? Including the swing states and 312 electoral votes. That is significant. That's a message.

[Robert Draper]

And then after that.

[Ed Gowrin]

But Thomas Massie stood in the way, not just against President Trump, but against the party and America.

[Robert Draper]

He described how Massey was the person who was standing in the way of this agenda being passed.

[Ed Gowrin]

Kentucky deserves in America, Congressman, who will stand with President Trump, the Republican Party and conservatives not against him.

[Robert Draper]

And that the 4th district deserved someone who was more in keeping with the man that they had voted for, Donald Trump, and that he would be that man.

[Ed Gowrin]

So thank you all for coming here. God bless President Trump, the Republican Party. God bless Kentucky, God bless, bless the United States of America. And I'll take a few questions. Thank you all for coming. Thank you all for coming today.

[Robert Draper]

And after that, he took about four questions from members of the press. And in its guard rails heavy nature, it seemed to be the exact opposite of Massey's freeform anything goes encounter that we'd had a couple of days earlier.

[Michael Barbaro]

And what do you think explains that decision making?

[Robert Draper]

Well, it's that there's a paradoxical element of his campaign that while Trump desperately wants Massie to be crushed with overwhelming force, this campaign is kind of doing so with a very, very light footprint. And I think also is very careful about saying anything that could possibly offend the president who has endorsed him, which was why when I had an opportunity during the Q and A, you know, I asked him, you did say a couple of minutes ago that you stand with President Trump. And Thomas Massie has said that that's tantamount to you being a yes man, a rubber stamp. Are you going to be Trump's rubber stamp. And I wonder if you could comment on that if you see yourself as someone who would be unswervingly with the President or someone who would be independent.

[Michael Barbaro]

And what does he say?

[Ed Gowrin]

So first of all, I want to give you scene, Senator, I guess I should have got five bronze stars to demonstrate my personal courage and independence to act on my own. I guess I should have served three times to SEAL Team 6 instead of two. But they have rules about that, and you don't do so much. There's no point of importance about that. I got to give thanks to other folks that did that. But it's a long way from a dairy farm in the Ohio river to SEAL Team six. And I'm not talking geography.

[Robert Draper]

You know, beyond describing his resume, he was essentially conflating individual courage with political independence, which struck me as two different things.

[Ed Gowrin]

The President knows who I am. He knows what I stand for. He knows exactly who he was talking to. I am no rubber stamp will never happen.

[Robert Draper]

And said that being a rubber stamp was never who he was nor who he would ever be.

[Ed Gowrin]

No siree Bob. I'll put a bow on it with this. I represent these folks here. I'm their servant leader. And the President knows that. You can count on it.

[Robert Draper]

But I wanted to push on that idea just to learn a little more from the candidate as to really just what he'd like to be as a congressman. So I paid him a call. Robert Draper.

[Ed Gowrin]

Hey. Hey, Robert. Where you at now?

[Michael Barbaro]

And what exactly did you ask him? What did he say? And were you able to fully resolve this question of whether he was capable of being anything other than a Trump teammate?

[Robert Draper]

Yeah. I started in our brief phone interview by asking him the most basic of questions. I'm just curious to know what House committees you'd like to serve on. You're a man of varied interests and. And you could go in a bunch of different directions. So what do you. What do you have in mind? What's on your wish list? What House committees would he like to serve on?

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Ed Gowrin]

I'm going to go to Speaker Johnson and the President and J.D. i'm going to say, where you need me, Coach. Just like when I played ball at Franklin Simpson, when I played ball at Center College, when I played ball at Murray. That is a team sport. Governing is a team sport now. I got my desires, I got places I think I fit. But he knows what the whole ball team looks like. Does that make sense?

[Robert Draper]

Sure. And the answer that he gave me was whatever the coach says, Speaker Johnson and President Trump would be the ones to make that decision for him and that he would happily abide by it.

[Michael Barbaro]

I mean, to state the obvious, this is quite different than Thomas Massie's vision of Congress, where independence is essential and the prerogatives of the Congress are to do what individual members think is necessary, regardless of the team they're on, regardless of what the president wants.

[Robert Draper]

That's right, yeah. And I pressed him later on whether he would have done as Massie did on the release of the Epstein files, and he basically said, well, I'm for transparency, but I'm for transparency in a way that doesn't cause any conflict with the president. And, you know, I asked him, would you be in favor of the overthrowing the Cuban regime, for example? And he said, I'm in favor of liberating the Cubans, but in whatever way the president wants to achieve that, I'm fine. So in our brief conversation, at no point was there any suggestion that he would assert himself as an individual. Instead, he would be an enabler of whatever the Trump administration had in mind. Hmm. And look, to be fair, this is the calculation he's making that if he's going to have a shot in this race, he's got to present himself as an alternative to Massie. And right now, Massey's biggest vulnerability is that he's lost the support of the president in a state where the president is very popular. So Gowrand is running as the alternative to that, and Galrain has an incredible financial war chest supporting him. And by supporting him, what I really mean is attacking Massey. Mm.

[Michael Barbaro]

You had said earlier that this race remains quite close. And so it's tempting to ponder all the implications of Massie surviving this, all the implications of Massie losing this race. But I wonder if, at the end of the day, those implications aren't so far apart. If Massie loses, Trump will have clearly shown that there's no tolerance for opposing him, even when somebody like Massie is staking out positions that are really grounded in what Trump claims his political movement is all about. But even if Massie wins, the message to everyone else in the Republican Party is, do you really want to go through what I just went through in the name of independence from Trump? And the answer is probably no. So either way, I might argue, Trump achieves his goal of imposing a very high degree of ideological conformity, right?

[Robert Draper]

That's right. It's definitely the case. But it also comes with a certain risk. Right. I mean, because we've just come out with this poll, the new York Times has, showing how on the generic ballot, Democrats are up by 10 or something. So to basically, you know, wed yourself to Trump is really to be rolling the dice that this fidelity to the President is not going to prove damaging to the entire party. And so, yeah, I mean, Trump has basically sent this message, which I believe, win or lose by Massey is still going to be present. But meanwhile, Republicans cannot be inattentive to this greater electoral message. These storm clouds that are gathering suggesting that when it comes to general elections, it's a deeply problematic thing siding with the president.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. I mean, if the midterms were held today, according to the New York Times poll that came out on Monday, the one you just referenced, it's very clear that Republicans would almost certainly lose the House based on all the factors you just described. They wouldn't lose Massie's seat. Whether it's Massie or Gal Rhein, it's going to be held by a Republican. But nationally, these polls suggest swing districts are going to swing Democratic. And what Trump is saying to every Republican in this very expensive Massey race is, do not dare trying to. To break with me, even if I am steering this car off the midterm cliff.

[Robert Draper]

Well, if Trump understands nothing else, he understands leverage. And he has always shown a willingness to use that leverage. And that leverage includes no small element of fear. It does send a formidable message that you don't want to tangle with this guy. And we have not seen any president, I think, in modern history, perhaps in the history of American politics, who has had such command over his party, even in defiance of public opinion polls that would suggest that people be a little bit wary of that fidelity to Trump.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, Robert, thank you very much.

[Robert Draper]

My pleasure, Michael.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

[Peter Baker]

I'm Peter Baker. I'm chief White House correspondent for the New York Times. I cover the President of the United States, and I've covered every president since 1996. The pressure on an independent press today feels greater than at any time I've seen it in four decades as a journalist. All that pressure, though, is just a reminder of why journalism matters. Our job is to bring home facts, help our readers understand what's happening, regardless of what the consequences may be to us. And if they punish us, so be it. We will still go out there and report as honestly and aggressively and fairly and truthfully as we can. I mean, look, if the New York Times were not at the White House asking the hard questions, looking for stories behind the stories, trying to understand what's going on, it's possible these questions don't get asked. Independent reporting requires resources. You can support it by subscribing to the New york [e-mail] Subscribe.

[Michael Barbaro]

Here's what else you need to know today. On Monday, a jury rejected Elon Musk's lawsuit, claiming that OpenAI, the artificial intelligence company he co founded, had violated its original mission by putting commercial interests over the good of humanity. Jurors did not rule on the merits of Musk's argument. Instead, they found that Musk brought his lawsuit against OpenAI and its chief executive, Sam Altman, after the statute of limitations had expired and the Trump administration has created an unusual $1.8 billion fund overseen by the president's allies to compensate compensate those who claim they were politically targeted by the Justice Department under President Biden. Democratic officials called it a taxpayer financed slush fund that would enrich Trump's supporters, and they predicted it would make payouts to, among others, those convicted of participating in the January 6th riots at the US Capitol. Today's episode was produced by Caitlin o', Keefe, Anna Foley and Olivia Natt, with help from Chris Benderev. It was edited by Devin Taylor and Rachel Quester and contains Music by Pat McCusker, Marion Lozano and Dan Powell. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This episode was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Balbara. See you tomorrow. This podcast is supported by the American Petroleum Institute. Energy demand is rising and the infrastructure we build today will power generations to come. We can deliver affordable, reliable and innovative energy solutions for all Americans, but we need to overhaul our broken permitting process to make that happen. It's time to modernize and build, because when America builds, America wins. Read API's plan to secure America's future at permittingreformnow.org.