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- [00:00]
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- [00:21]
Jason Horowitz
Hi, this is Jason Horowitz, the Rome bureau Chief of the New York Times. And I'm here in St. Peter's Square looking up at the roof of the Sistine Chapel where cardinals are inside voting on who the next pope should be. Like everybody else, I'm looking at a chimney surrounded by seagulls and trying to figure out if anything's coming out of it. And if it's smoke, if it's black smoke, they have an inconclusive vote, or if it is white smoke, which means we have a pope. So there's white smoke in the square and I'm running back to file the story. But once again, white smoke, a new pope.
- [01:15]
Michael Balbaro
From the New York Times, I'm Michael Balbaro. This is the Daily Today, the world's 1.4 billion Catholics now have a new pope. And for the first time, he's from America. It's Friday, May 9th.
- [01:55]
Jason, good evening.
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Jason Horowitz
Good evening, Michael.
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Michael Balbaro
As they say in Italy, habemus pabum. Do I have that right?
- [02:03]
Jason Horowitz
Yeah, we don't say it all the time. Just when we get up hope.
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Michael Balbaro
And it happened pretty quickly.
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Jason Horowitz
Yeah, it happened really quickly. It was the second day a lot of people thought we were going to be in a long conclave. It seemed like they had a lot of new cardinals who needed to get to know each other and wasn't very clear how long they would be in there. The idea was that if it was as quick as it was, as it's been actually pretty often going back to the 1930s, it would be someone who was a front runner, someone we had been hearing a lot about. And that's not exactly how it shook out.
- [02:42]
Michael Balbaro
Well, Jason, when you and I last spoke the evening that Pope Francis had died, you laid out for us quite clearly the stakes around the question of who would succeed Francis. Would it be a pope in the mold of Francis, who embodied his desire for inclusion over rules and religious purity? Or might it be a pope who represented, as you put it, these powerful conservative forces and traditional instincts that were so frequently at odds with Francis? Did it feel like that was the guiding principle over this process?
- [03:17]
Jason Horowitz
Yeah, I think that that dynamic was at play in the conclave, but I also think that there was something else going on. I think that the cardinals saw all These people come to Francis's funeral. I think that they realized that they had had a Pope who for 12 years, really put the Catholic Church on the world stage. I think that they started thinking, do we really want a bureaucrat? Do we really want someone who might suck the air out of this? And don't we really want. And this was what was most important to Francis, Maybe a pastor. The pastor to guide the church. And whether it be priests in the parish, a bishop in a city, or as it turns out, maybe a pope in Rome.
- [04:04]
Michael Balbaro
Well, with that principle and influence seemingly guiding the process, it sounds like Francis, a bit from the grave, hanging over all this. Tell us about the mechanics of this election process, the unique rules around it and what we understand happened behind closed doors.
- [04:24]
Jason Horowitz
Well, in full disclosure, we sort of know nothing, because in a way, it's the. I like to think of it as sort of the most beautifully frescoed black box in the world, the Sistine Chapel. When the cardinals go in there to elect the pope, we don't know what the dynamics really are. We don't know what the votes are.
- [04:43]
Michael Balbaro
But we know the process as prescribed.
- [04:45]
Jason Horowitz
Yeah. So the cardinals basically go into the Sistine Chapel and they take an oath of absolute secrecy. And at a certain point, the doors close after one of the prelates says, exit Omnis, everybody out, and everyone who's not a voting cardinal, you know, whether it be members of the choir or bishops, everybody starts filing out and the doors close and how many cardinals are.
- [05:14]
Michael Balbaro
Voting and how many votes are needed?
- [05:17]
Jason Horowitz
So as 133 voting cardinals entered into the Sistine Chapel, there were two guys who didn't make it in because they weren't feeling well. And of those 133, you need 89 votes. You need two thirds to become pope. So that seems simple enough. But two thirds? A majority in a college that represents the entire world, where not everyone is speaking Italian, which is supposed to be the working language of the church, which probably slowed things down the first night anyway. It's very difficult to hit that threshold. And on the first day, which was Wednesday, they have one vote. And we kind of expected that it would be inconclusive. And in fact, it was. And the way that the church shows that is that black smoke starts billowing out of a chimney atop the Sistine Chapel. But when they leave the Sistine Chapel, they are still sequestered. They still have a vow of secrecy, but they aren't taking an oath of silence. They're allowed to talk to each other. And that's when the Politicking starts, right? So they have seen in that first vote who's a strong candidate, who maybe is softer than they expected. And that's the really interesting part. And, you know, it could be over the cafeteria table, it could be people visiting one another's rooms. It could be hallway discussions. But I think what is happening inside is candidates are realizing whether or not they have the votes or not. And that's when coalitions start building, because a candidate who thought maybe he could be pope realizes he won't be Pope. And so what does he do with his support? Does he want to throw it to a candidate that he supports to prevent, to block somebody he doesn't want? So that's when all the regional dynamics, all the political dynamics, all the theological dynamics really come together, and it's all out of view. So they came back the next morning, and we came back the next morning, and they started voting again. And we started looking at the chimney again. And pretty early in the day, we saw black smoke, which meant that again, they had not found their candidate. But it was sort of a strange thing, because throughout the day, just amongst insiders and people who follow this, there was sort of a sense that, you know, maybe, though this afternoon they would sort of form a consensus and that the smoke might not be black. And once you realize it's white, you realize that something momentous has happened. And then a few minutes later, the bell of St. Peter's Basilica starts tolling and marching bands start surrounding the square, and the Swiss Guards start marching up. And all of a sudden, you're back in a royal court from 600 years ago. And then the curtains part, and a court cardinal dressed in red comes out onto the balcony. The first thing he says is, habemus papam, habemus papum, which means, we have a pope. And then speaking in Latin, he says the name of that pope.
- [09:00]
Robert Francis Prevost
Dominum Robertum Franciscum Sancte Roman Ecclesiastical Cardinal aime Prevost.
- [09:11]
Jason Horowitz
And for the first time, we hear the words Robert Francis Prevost.
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Robert Francis Prevost
Quisi bi nome nim posuit leonem decimum quartum.
- [09:22]
Jason Horowitz
And it's revealed that he's taken the name Pope Leo xiv. And all of a sudden, we have an American pope. And then a few minutes later, the new pope steps out onto the balcony.
- [09:39]
Michael Balbaro
And what does he say? This pope from America?
- [09:44]
Jason Horowitz
So this pope from America comes out, and he is speaking Italian. La pace si a contutti voi. And he addresses the crowd and he says, peace be upon you.
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Robert Francis Prevost
Grazie.
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Jason Horowitz
Apapa Francesco. And he makes it clear that he sees himself in the continuum of Francis. He names Francis twice. He talks about wanting a missionary church. And that's something also very much in the mold of Francis. He wants pastors, he wants a church that goes out there. He wants a church that's close to people. He talks about something which to secular ears probably doesn't mean anything at all, but it's something called synodality, which is this idea of consulting with the faithful, having their ideas sort of trickle up to the church and through big meetings with bishops and lay people. So that was Francis major vision for how the church worked. And the fact that Pope Leo said that on the balcony was taken as a huge sign that that was going to continue. So by the end of his speech, everyone in that piazza who was hungry for more Francis, who wanted to make that the church continued to be inclusive, who wanted that pastoral sense that Francis cared about so much, everyone who wanted that to keep going felt like that legacy was perhaps protected.
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Michael Balbaro
It very much. Seems you're answering the question that hovered over this entire process. Which version of the Catholic Church would emerge in a post Francis era? And the answer is basically another Francis.
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Jason Horowitz
So like Francis. Yes, but I don't think we got another Francis. I think that there are differences here. I think that they're not only two different people with two different backgrounds, but I think that maybe they have different ideas about the world and maybe the church. The issue is, though, is that we don't really know much right now about Pope Leo. He's only been Pope for a few hours. There's not much paper on him. So that's why we're all looking at his life story. We're looking at his career, we're looking at his path in the church, trying to figure out if there are clues to how he might actually govern as Pope Leo. We're trying to figure out if, in fact, past is prologue here. We'll be right back.
- [12:54]
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- [13:24]
Lori Leibovich
Hi, this is Lori Leibovich, editor of. Well, at the New York Times, there's a lot of misinformation in the health and wellness space. But at the New York Times, no matter what the topic, we apply the same journalistic standards to everything we write about, whether it's the gut microbiome or how to get a good night's sleep, even if we're talking about something like is it bad for me to drink coffee on an empty stomach? Everything that our readers get when they dig into a well article has been vetted. Our reporters are consulting experts, calling dozens of people doing the research. It can go on for months so that you can make great decisions about your physical health and your mental health. We take our reporting extra seriously because we know New York Times subscribers are counting on us. If you already subscribe, thank you. If you'd like to subscribe, go to nytimes.com subscribe.
- [14:22]
Michael Balbaro
So, Jason, tell us about the life story, the career and the path through the church of this new pope and how past might be prologue when it comes to what his papacy might look like.
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Jason Horowitz
Well, the first and in a way, most interesting thing about Pope Leo is that he was born in Chicago. And for a long time the idea of having an American pope was just a non starter. So to see birthplace, Chicago, Illinois, on the biography of the Vatican website right now for the Holy Roman Pontiff is sort of stunning.
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Michael Balbaro
Jason, just remind us why it would be seen as a non starter to have an American pope.
- [15:06]
Jason Horowitz
Sure. Well, there's a long tradition of the idea that it was just impossible to have an American pope first because of geography. It was just seen as too far before planes and trains and things started moving fast. But then once America became a superpower, there was really a feeling, especially after World War II, that you couldn't put so much power in the hands of one country. You couldn't have the major superpower on earth, the largest economy, the country that was delivering the Marshall Plan and sculpting the global order. You couldn't also have someone from that country also be the head of the Roman Catholic Church.
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Michael Balbaro
That's fascinating.
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Jason Horowitz
So for a long time, it was just seen as concentrating too much power in the hands of one country. But now we have Pope Leo xiv, who has clearly broken that taboo.
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Michael Balbaro
Well, tell us more about his American roots. You said he's from Chicago.
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Jason Horowitz
Yeah. So he was born in Chicago in 1955, and in a way, he's got a very American story. His father was of French and Italian descent, his mother was of Spanish descent, and it's clearly a very religious family. He enters the seminary pretty soon in his adolescence, and he's drawn to the Augustinian Fathers, which is a religious order, and he ends up at Villanova University in Pennsylvania. So, you know, it's also sort of stunning when very American, when you think that the Pope went to Villanova, which a lot of people know from March Madness, you know.
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Michael Balbaro
Right. So what else do we know about him?
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Jason Horowitz
So, like a lot of bright young things in the Church, he is sent off to Rome, where he studies theology, and then he studies canon law. But then his story sort of changes, and this sort of very American story takes a more international turn. And he's told this story before.
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Robert Francis Prevost
I think the part of ministry that most shaped my life is Peru. I was there for over 20 years, total about 12 years as an Augustinian doing parish work. Pastor.
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Jason Horowitz
In 1985, Prevost is sent to Peru as a missionary, and that really changes his life.
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Robert Francis Prevost
I just can only say how gifted I feel because of what I gained from my years working in Peru. I hope that every priest can say that about wherever he works.
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Jason Horowitz
And he spends a lot of time out in Peru, and he really becomes committed to the country and to the Catholics there, that he ends up taking Peruvian citizenship. And it really becomes core to his identity in many ways. Yes, he has his dual citizenship in the United States and Peru, but also he sort of projects himself as Peruvian in a way. He's very much sees himself as part of South America as much as North America.
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Michael Balbaro
Another way, perhaps, in which he is very much like Pope Francis.
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Jason Horowitz
Yeah, I think that that's right. Pope Francis really was shaped by his experience in Argentina and the brand of Catholicism. There was something that I think that Francis saw himself a little bit perhaps, in Prevost, and that's one of the reasons that he brought him to Rome.
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Michael Balbaro
Well, just describe that Francis bringing Prevost to Rome. That seems like a pretty important moment.
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Jason Horowitz
So, Michael, do you remember when we talked last time and I mentioned that Francis really believed, like many in the Vatican, that personnel was policy?
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Michael Balbaro
I do.
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Jason Horowitz
I think that what he really needed to do was to bring people in who saw the world the way he saw the world, and that's where Prevost came in.
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Robert Francis Prevost
Being in leadership in the church is another formative experience.
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Jason Horowitz
In 2015, he appointed him bishop in Peru, but he also ends up bringing him back to rome. And in 2023, he ends up heading up the Office for Bishops, which is this major job inside the Vatican, which is in charge of all the bishops all across the world.
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Robert Francis Prevost
He called me and specifically because he didn't want someone from the Roman Curia to take on this role. He wanted a missionary. He wanted someone from outside. He wanted someone who would come in with a different perspective.
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Michael Balbaro
It sounds like you're saying Francis essentially entrusts Prevost with the future of the Catholic bureaucracy.
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Jason Horowitz
Yeah, he entrusts him with not just the bureaucracy, but the pastors all around the world. Right. The people who are actually going to be, you know, running dioceses. The people who are going to be, you know, picking which priests are in parishes. Basically, what he's doing is he's helping Francis see the future of the Roman Catholic Church with bishops, and that's a major thing. And his star keeps rising. And in 2023, he was made a cardinal. So if you think about that, even two years ago, you know, Prevost would not have even been allowed in the Sistine Chapel to pick the next pope. And now, you know, he's not just in there, he becomes the next pope.
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Michael Balbaro
So clearly, Francis played a big role in his rise. How much do his views genuinely overlap with those of Francis? You said a few moments ago that we don't really know his views on social issues the way we do know the views of Francis. But reading the tea leaves and his record, what do we know?
- [20:27]
Jason Horowitz
So I think what's clear is that Pope Leo has many similar views to Francis, especially on issues that really matter right now, like, for example, migration. I think that it's pretty clear that Pope Leo is going to be a champion of migrants in much the same way that Francis was on social issues. I think he's pretty much in the Catholic mainstream, which is pretty much don't touch doctrine. Right. That there's Catholic teaching, and that's not going to be changed, and it's not to be touched. In 2012, he made it pretty clear that he was not going to be somebody who was going to, for example, change church teaching on homosexuality. He referred to it as the, quote, homosexual lifestyle and not positive way. So I think that what we can expect from him along those lines is someone who stands up for opposition to gay marriage and birth control, the sort of usual things that a Catholic conservative would do. But then again, when Pope Francis was a cardinal in Buenos Aires, he was also considered your classic conservative. And he changed when he became pope. And so we really don't know what Pope Leo is going to be like. Just because Cardinal Prevost held certain views, a lot of things can just change.
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Michael Balbaro
To end this conversation, Jason, I want to return to the subject of Pope Leo as being from America. And as you've made clear he spends so much of his career outside of it. But what we know about Pope Francis is that he had such a rough time with the American Catholic Church. You made that so clear last time we spoke. He was endlessly frustrated with the conservative elements of the church. They tangled with him constantly. He ended up pushing a lot of them out of the church. They thought that he was going to ruin the church with some of his progressive viewpoints. If we believe that Pope Leo is in the mold of Pope Francis, do we think he's going to have those same battles with the conservative elements of the Catholic Church in the US or do we think because he spent so much time in America and grew up here, that he might have an easier time navigating those forces within the church? And at this point, I think we have to describe those forces as, at times, being aligned with conservative American political forces as well. Like President Trump and J.D. vance and Steve Bannon.
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Jason Horowitz
Yeah, I think that is the key question, and it's gonna be fascinating to watch. Pope Francis had a really antagonistic relationship with the United States. At the certain points, he almost seemed hostile to it. He wasn't a fan of its style of capitalism. He thought that the bishops conference in the United States was sort of out to get him at times. Pope Leo instead, you know, he's from there. He knows all these people. You know, he's from Chicago. Right. So it's just going to be fascinating to see how he navigates all of this, because the United States is deeply important for the Roman Catholic Church. I think maybe one of the reasons that Pope Leo is pope right now is because the Church might be able to address some of its financial difficulties with greater contributions from big donors in the United States. That said, he also is very much in the mold of Francis. That doesn't mean he's going to be as combative as Francis sometimes was. He might find a more diplomatic way. But I think that especially dealing with the political sort of landscape of the United States, he is going to find places where he is, indeed deep disagreement with the current administration. And it's going to be fascinating to see how he navigates that. It's also going to be interesting to see if his Americanness, if his nationality is used against him by the American administration, because perhaps he seems less foreign, perhaps he seems less special because he's one of ours. So there's a fear, I think, within the Church that he might be drawn into political fights that popes don't want to be drawn in. And I think he's going to be very reluctant to be drawn into that. I think what he wants, and this is especially from what he said out on the balcony, I think he really sees himself possibly being a bridge and perhaps a bridge back to America and to the bishops there and maybe even to the administration there, just to say, well, let's lower the temperature. Let's see if we can work together.
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Michael Balbaro
That's fascinating because earlier in this conversation, you suggested that for so long the thinking was that there couldn't be so much power concentrated in America. And now we have a Pope who wants to be a bridge to America, back home to America. That marks a really big change.
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Jason Horowitz
Yeah. And I think it also reflects the way the church sees the world a little bit. I don't think that they see Leo as an American. I don't think nationality is what they're looking at. I think that they see him as someone who has this deep, deep experience in the things that they care about. Right. It's not where you're from, it's what you've done. In a way, he's sort of checked all the boxes, but I think the one that's most important is that he has sort of the blessing of Pope Francis. It might be a posthumous blessing at this point, but for followers of Francis, I think when Leo stepped out onto the balcony and, and when he spoke in a language that they understood to be the language of Francis, they felt much more comfortable than perhaps if somebody else had stepped out there as Pope.
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Michael Balbaro
Well, Jason, thank you very much.
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Jason Horowitz
Thank you, Michael.
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Michael Balbaro
We'll be right back.
- [26:54]
Jason Horowitz
We are living in interesting times, a turning point in history. Are we entering a dark authority or are we on the brink of a technological golden age or the apocalypse? No one really knows, but I'm trying to find out from New York Times opinion. I'm Ross Douthat, and on my show Interesting Times, I'm exploring this strange new world order with the thinkers and leaders giving it shape. Follow it wherever you get your podcasts.
- [27:25]
Michael Balbaro
Here's what else you need to know today. On Thursday, President Trump announced his first, first proposed trade deal since imposing tariffs on dozens of countries. The deal with the United Kingdom requires the UK to drop its tariffs on, among other products, US beef, ethanol and sports equipment, and to buy $10 billion worth of US made airplanes. In return, the United States said it would roll back its its tariffs on cars and steel, but would leave a 10% tariff in place for most British imports. It's unclear how much of a template the deal represents for future trade agreements. US officials have been holding trade talks with India, Israel, Japan and South Korea, but so far little progress has been made with America's most important, important trading partner, China. And the White House is dropping a controversial nominee to become the U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C. after Senate Republicans told the president there was not enough support to confirm him. The nominee, Ed Martin, is a partisan activist with no prosecutorial experience who is known for supporting January 6th rioters and for his close ties to a well known anti Semite. For now, Trump said Martin will be replaced by the conservative Fox News personality Jeanine Pirro. Today's episode was produced by Anna Foley and Eric Krupke with help from Claire tennisketter and Rachelle Banja. It was edited by Maria Byrne, contains original music by Dan Powell and Diane Wong and research help from Susan Lee. It was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Special thanks to Patty Mizet and Ang Lee. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Barbara. See you on Monday.
- [30:17]
Lori Leibovich
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