An Interview With the President

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Daily

Episode: An Interview With the President
Date: January 9, 2026
Host: Michael Barbaro (with Times reporters David Sanger, Katie Rogers, Tyler Pager, and Zolan Kanno-Youngs)
Guest: President Donald Trump

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Overview:

This episode features a high-stakes, in-depth interview with President Donald Trump in the Oval Office as he approaches the end of the first year of his second term. The Times' reporting team presses Trump on his recent audacious foreign policy moves, particularly in Venezuela, and probes his evolving views and actions on American power, immigration, race, the economy, and his own legacy. The conversation reveals Trump’s complex, often contradictory worldview — unconstrained by traditional checks and prone to defining his own rules in international affairs and domestic policy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Oval Office Atmosphere and Setup

• The interview lasted nearly two hours in the Oval Office, punctuated by interruptions (calls from foreign leaders, aides dropping in, and the President showing off architectural plans) ([03:31–04:20]).
• Secretary of State Marco Rubio and Vice President J.D. Vance were present for part of the discussion ([04:44–06:34]).

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2. Foreign Policy: Venezuela, International Norms, and American Power

• Audacious Intervention: Trump discusses his direct intervention in Venezuela, ousting Nicolas Maduro and effectively placing the U.S. in charge for the foreseeable future.

  • “If there’s a threat, you use the word ‘threat,’ you certainly would have the right—any country would have the right to do that...” ([08:10] – Trump).

• Oil as Motivation: Trump claims security was the main rationale, but admits the importance of oil:

  • “We have to rebuild the country. And we will rebuild it in a very profitable way. We’re going to be using oil and we’re going to be taking oil.” ([11:17] – Trump).

• Precedent for Other Aggressors: Times reporters challenge Trump on the global implications (i.e., whether China or Russia could justify similar actions).

  • "No, because this was a real threat. You didn’t have people pouring into China, you didn’t have drugs pouring into China." ([10:23] – Trump).

• Checks on Presidential Power:

  • Asked what constrains him, Trump points to himself:
    • “Yeah, there’s one thing. My own morality, my own mind. It’s the only thing that can stop.” ([13:26] – Trump).
  • Asked about international law:
    • “I do, but it depends what your definition of international law is. But the answer is I do. But we have to keep the United States safe.” ([14:19] – Trump).

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3. Greenland, NATO, and Ownership

• Trump emphasizes a preference for U.S. ownership versus alliances or treaties:

  • “Ownership is very important. That’s what I feel is psychologically needed for success. I think that ownership gives you a thing that you can’t do, whether you’re talking about a lease or a treaty…Psychologically important for me. Now, maybe another president would feel differently, but so far I’ve been right about everything.” ([17:47] and [18:07] – Trump).

• He refuses to rule out military force to acquire Greenland but downplays the likelihood (“I wouldn’t comment on that. I don’t think it’ll be necessary.” — [18:18] – Trump).

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4. Reflections on Presidential Power

• David Sanger notes Trump feels “unconstrained by law, convention, or the systems…the United States itself built at the end of World War II.” ([19:37]).
• Yet, Trump wants a legacy as a peacemaker (“He does want that peace prize…he wants to be known as a president of peace.” — [19:55] – David Sanger).

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5. Immigration, Race, and Domestic Policy

• ICE Shooting and Policing: Pressed about an ICE-involved fatality, Trump reflexively defends law enforcement, yet is confronted by reporters on the facts ([23:14–25:39]).

  • “Everything makes me uncomfortable. I want to see nobody get shot.” ([23:47] – Trump).
  • On reviewing video evidence: “Does not look like the ICE officer has been run over there…” ([25:14] – Michael Barbaro, fact-checking Trump’s claims).

• Stripping Citizenship: Trump is open to stripping citizenship, particularly for people from Somalia:

  • “If they deserve to be stripped, I’d do it in a heartbeat.” ([26:53] – Trump).
  • “Many of the people that came in from Somalia, they hate our country.” ([27:07] – Trump).

• Race and Immigration: Challenged on whether policy is about changing America’s racial makeup, Trump denies it:

  • “No, not at all. I just want people that love our country.” ([27:55] – Trump).
  • Reporters note only white South Africans are being admitted as refugees (“I haven’t seen that…Over the years, it’s been very much the opposite.” — [28:24] – Trump; analysis at [28:39] – Michael Barbaro).

• Labor Needs & Deferential Enforcement:

  • Trump admits certain industries need immigrant labor (“I want them to come in legally…I want them more than they want me” — [29:50] – Trump).
  • He has instructed ICE to ease up on farmers and some industries ([30:33] – Trump on Georgia’s Hyundai plant).

• Comprehensive Immigration Reform: Trump expresses openness to it (“I would love to do it if it was possible” — [33:18] – Trump), contradicting prior hardline positions.

  • Reporters note this would shock Trump’s own base ([34:29] – Michael Barbaro).

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6. The Economy and Voter Anxiety

• Trump adamantly claims the economy is strong, rejects poll findings that suggest otherwise:

  • “The economy is probably the best...I have trillions and trillions of dollars coming into this economy…our economy is unbelievable.” ([36:15] – Trump).

• He downplays struggles of low and middle earners, blaming his predecessor and touting statistics:

  • “If you look at my achievements, the greatest beneficiaries of my economy in my first term were low income workers.” ([37:21] – Trump).

• On technology and jobs, Trump is optimistic about AI:

  • “I think AI is going to be a tremendous job producer. My biggest problem isn't taking the jobs, it’s that we don’t have enough people to fill the jobs.” ([39:06] – Trump).

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7. The Chaotic Oval Office, Legacy, and Personal Style

• The interview is repeatedly interrupted by aides, phone calls, and Trump’s desire to show off White House renovations ([39:53–41:02]).
• Trump is described as seeking respect and validation, not only from Americans but from the media and political rivals ([43:07] – Katie Rogers).
• Notably, on allegations of family self-dealing, Trump seems unconcerned, feeling emboldened in his second term ([44:21] – Zolan Kanno-Youngs).
• He draws a hard line against antisemitism within the MAGA movement, setting himself apart from others in his party ([45:43] – Tyler Pager).

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On checks to his power:
  • “Yeah, there’s one thing. My own morality, my own mind. It’s the only thing that can stop.” — Donald Trump ([13:26])
• On international law:
  • “I do, but it depends what your definition of international law is.” — Donald Trump ([14:19])
• On Greenland and control:
  • “Ownership is very important. That’s what I feel is psychologically needed for success.” — Donald Trump ([17:47])
• On stripping citizenship:
  • “If they deserve to be stripped, I’d do it in a heartbeat.” — Donald Trump ([26:53])
• On potential for immigration reform:
  • “I would love to do it if it was possible.” — Donald Trump ([33:18])
• On economic anxieties:
  • “The economy is probably the best…our economy is unbelievable.” — Donald Trump ([36:15])
• Katie Rogers on Trump’s need for credit:
  • “He’s sort of almost telling us and himself…they’ll be thanking me, as if this is the project that will do it, that will give him this credit that he has been seeking.” ([43:07])
• Zolan Kanno-Youngs on Trump's emboldenment:
  • “He was pretty much unbothered about the business deals that his family has been able to pursue…a president who’s so much more emboldened.” ([44:21])
• Tyler Pager on antisemitism:
  • “He said, no, I don’t think we need them. I don’t think we like them.” ([45:53])

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Memorable Moments

• Fact-checking video with the president on ICE shooting ([24:55–25:45])
• Repeated efforts to show off architectural plans and remodels ([39:53–41:02])
• Trump’s openness to comprehensive immigration reform, surprising even his own interviewers ([33:18; 34:29])
• Strong assertion of personal morality as the only check on power ([13:26])
• Sharp distinctions with his own VP and others over the limits of tolerance for extremism within the Republican movement ([45:53])

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Reflections and Takeaways from Times Reporters ([42:41–51:06])

• Katie Rogers: Trump deeply motivated by need for credit and legacy, combining “builder” persona with that of political disruptor.
• Zolan Kanno-Youngs: Trump is emboldened, concerned less with appearances or restraint, sometimes acting as a bystander to his own policies.
• Tyler Pager: Trump sets a hard line against antisemitism within his movement, marking a contrast with some of his allies.
• Overarching Reporter Consensus: The interview underscores Trump’s erratic, complicated leadership style — freely mixing contradiction, self-assertion, and an improvisational approach to American power.

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Conclusion

This rare, candid interview pulls back the curtain on Trump’s mindset and presidency in a second term. It illustrates his conviction that American might, guided by his own judgment, trumps international consensus and law. On domestic policy, he maintains hard lines on enforcement but offers surprising flexibility on reform. Throughout, the president craves recognition — a legacy not just of power, but of being seen as an unparalleled builder and decision-maker. The episode closes with a sense of unease and fascination — a window into how Trump makes decisions and the unpredictable future of his America.

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For those who missed the episode:
This summary distills the major themes and highlights the most important, revealing moments. The episode offers a vivid example of contemporary political journalism grappling with a president unbound, and whose complex, often contradictory approach to governance delivers both disruption and unpredictability.

Transcript

[Drake May]

Hey, Drake May here. You know that calm you get when your team has a drive under control? That's the same feeling I get investing and saving with Betterment. Their automated technology does the work to help grow your money and save you on taxes. So when the market gets unpredictable, you can stay calm, cool and confident. That's what I call the Betterment effect. And it's why I'm glad they're on my team. Get started [e-mail] investing involves risk performance, not guaranteed paid client ad views may not be representative. See App Store and Google Play store reviews. Learn [e-mail] PursuitBetterPartners.

[Michael Barbaro]

Alrighty, we are on our way up through the West Wing, past the press secretary's office, past the Cabinet Room, sitting under a great portrait of George Washington in his younger days.

[Donald Trump]

Come on, guys.

[Michael Barbaro]

You ready for us?

[Michael Balbaro]

From the New York Times, I'm Michael Balbaro. This is the Daily.

[Donald Trump]

How are you?

[Michael Barbaro]

Good.

[Tyler Pager]

Good to see you, Mr. President.

[Donald Trump]

Did you see that? Just came out? Number one on TikTok Trump. All right. I'm a little older than the average age on TikTok on Wednesday night in.

[Michael Balbaro]

The middle of a defining moment for President Trump's second term.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, thank you, Mr. President. Tresinos, you know everybody. Katie Rogers.

[Donald Trump]

Hi, Katie.

[Michael Barbaro]

And of course, Tyler.

[Donald Trump]

Nice to see you.

[Michael Balbaro]

Four White House reporters from the Times sat down with him for an extended interview in the Oval Office.

[Donald Trump]

Did you see my various truths today? They were sort of sparkling. Sparkling.

[Michael Balbaro]

Today. One of them, David Sanger, walks us through their conversation. It's Friday, january 9th. So, David, four New York Times reporters walk into the Oval Office.

[Michael Barbaro]

What could possibly go wrong?

[Michael Balbaro]

Sounds like the setup to a punchline. Tell us about this experience.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, the president's second term is about to hit its one year mark. And I think it's a considerable understatement for anybody who's been listening to the Daily or reading the Times to say that this is truly one of the most pivotal moments in modern American history. Trump has just executed his most audacious overseas intervention. I've been talking to him for a couple of weeks about sitting down for a full on the record New York Times interview. As you know, the relationship between President Trump and the New York Times has been occasionally slightly fraught.

[Michael Balbaro]

Yeah. And litigious.

[Michael Barbaro]

And litigious.

[Michael Balbaro]

He sued us over the past few.

[Michael Barbaro]

Months only for $15 billion, but in the end, he very happily agreed to it. And we were told that the moment would be 5pm on Wednesday night. And we actually thought that was a good piece of timing because we figured we would probably be his last appointment of the day. Right. And anybody who has dealt with Donald Trump and I've dealt with him for a few years knows that if you're the last appointment of the day, you're likely to be sticking around for a while. We didn't leave the White house till after 9pm Right.

[Michael Balbaro]

You got a meaningful chunk of his time.

[Michael Barbaro]

We did interrupted some by a few side moments, including the president wanting to show us some of his architectural plans and visit what he's done up in the residence and so forth. But a good. Oh, just shy of two hours of. It was an actual deep, probing conversation about this past year, foreign and domestic issues. And our goal, Michael, was to try to do something deeper and hopefully more revealing than what the president does every day when he stands up briefly in front of reporters on Air Force One, or does a gaggle, as they call it, around the Resolute desk. And readers and listeners are going to have to determine if you succeeded.

[Michael Balbaro]

Yeah. All right. Well, to that point. Walk us through the interview.

[Donald Trump]

Sit down, please.

[Michael Barbaro]

So we settled in, sat down arrayed around the Resolute desk. It was me and Tyler Pager, Olan Kano Youngs and Katie Rogers.

[Donald Trump]

Marco, why don't you join us for a couple of minutes? Is that okay?

[Michael Barbaro]

Already inside the Oval Office was Secretary of State Marco Rubio. We were about to learn why. And right away, Michael, we had to sort through a few logistics.

[Donald Trump]

So we have an understanding. This is only used for your reporting.

[Michael Barbaro]

So this is what we wanted to ask you about, I think, in two different interviews. In the first term, we use the audio to go on the daily. And the first thing we had to go do was negotiate that we could actually use this recording for the daily. Right.

[Michael Balbaro]

Thank you. Because without that negotiation, we don't have this episode.

[Michael Barbaro]

Anything for the Daily, Michael, let's leave.

[Donald Trump]

It for a little while. Fine. For a little while. We'll see how it goes.

[Michael Barbaro]

And we were just a few minutes into the conversation.

[Donald Trump]

Is he on the phone? So can you turn that off for a second?

[Michael Barbaro]

When an aide came in and handed the president a note.

[Donald Trump]

President Petro in this call is off the record.

[Michael Barbaro]

Okay. Saying the president of Colombia was on the phone.

[Michael Balbaro]

The country, not the university.

[Michael Barbaro]

That's right.

[Donald Trump]

Can you turn them off? Give me a word or two?

[Tyler Pager]

Yeah.

[Michael Balbaro]

And what did that mean to you, knowing that the president of Columbia was calling him in this moment, the first.

[Michael Barbaro]

Thing that came to mind was, oh, we have to get up and walk Out. But just as I was getting up to go do that, the President waved at me just like, no, David, please stay. Right. And the second thing that I thought was, if the President of Columbia is calling, it's because he's worried about the fact that President Trump said just the other day he better watch his ass because he could be next.

[Michael Balbaro]

After Nicolas Maduro's ouster, he could be next to be ousted.

[Michael Barbaro]

That's right. And at just that moment, J.D. vance came in and settled in next to Marco Rubio to listen to the conversation.

[Michael Balbaro]

Got it.

[Michael Barbaro]

Now, the conversation itself was off the record, but it turned out that some of our colleagues down in Columbia had just sat down with President Petro. So we had New York Times reporters at both ends of this conversation. They had left before the call happened, but Petro was very clear with them. He said, this is a scary moment for Colombia. This is Donald Trump. We could well get the Venezuela treatment.

[Michael Balbaro]

So presumably he's calling to beseech President Trump to treat him kindly.

[Michael Barbaro]

That's exactly right.

[Michael Balbaro]

Got it.

[Michael Barbaro]

So the call ends.

[Donald Trump]

Okay, let's go.

[Michael Barbaro]

We turn our recorders back on.

[Donald Trump]

I hope that was interesting. Was that interesting?

[Michael Barbaro]

Very interesting. And that began a really wide ranging conversation. And in the first part, not surprisingly, we spent a lot of time on foreign policy. So let me tell you where we want to start. Your decision to capture Maduro and declare that the US Was in charge for the foreseeable future, I think raised a question of whether you believe, as your aide Stephen Miller put it so clearly the other night, that international niceties are gone, that countries operate by strength. I think he said, governed by strength, government by force, governed by power. And I think that left a lot of people wondering whether you believe you have the right as the world's largest superpower, to go in and extinguish any threat or seize any resource you think is in the US Interest, particularly in the Western Hemisphere.

[Donald Trump]

If there's a threat, you use the word threat, you certainly would have the right, any country would have the right to do that without the threat, much less so. And frankly, I do believe in the niceties. I get along with a lot of people I get along with.

[Michael Barbaro]

For most presidents, military power is the very last resort. After everything else, every form of diplomacy has failed you. So I wanted to get the President focused on the question of what criteria he uses to exercise the most extreme and deadly form of American power, which is the military, but also try to figure out how much of a motivation in Venezuela was the fact that it's Sitting on the world's largest reserves of oil. You've gone in in part to get a resource which you just declared today.

[Donald Trump]

I got in for numerous reasons. Number one, the drugs are pouring into the country, you know that. Number two, the people are pouring into the country were. Except now we have 100% strong border.

[Michael Barbaro]

That all this talk about a threat from drugs, from criminals and all that might be secondary to his true motivation here.

[Donald Trump]

No, it wasn't. No, the oil happened to be there. Don't forget the oil will take a while, but we have it said, although we did get, you know, many barrels of oil today, as you probably know, and that's fine, but we didn't do that. We didn't even know about the, all of the oil that was being stored there.

[Michael Barbaro]

So supposing you're Xi Jinping and you've watched the events of the past few days and I wanted him to talk a little bit about the long term implications of this, the precedent it sets. You may also be thinking that if you're Xi, that you could use the same logic to decapitate and control Taiwan or why couldn't Putin use that argument? Same argument. It's a threat to grab the rest of Ukraine or go beyond into other former Soviet states. Have you created a precedent that you may come to regret later on?

[Donald Trump]

No, because this is, this was a real threat. You didn't have people pouring into China, you didn't have drugs pouring into China.

[Michael Barbaro]

That what happens if you're Xi Jinping and you're watching this thinking, boy, this is useful when I'm justifying going after Taiwan. The President engaged on this, but I'm not sure he'd given it a huge amount of thought before we started discussing it.

[Donald Trump]

And that's up to him, what he's going to be doing. But you know, I've expressed to him that I would be very unhappy if he did that.

[Michael Barbaro]

And, and at some point, Tyler Pager jumped back in to bring the topic back to the central question of Venezuela.

[Tyler Pager]

How long do you think you'll be running Venezuela?

[Donald Trump]

Only time will tell.

[Tyler Pager]

Like three months, six months, A year? Longer?

[Donald Trump]

I would say much longer than that.

[Michael Barbaro]

Much longer.

[Donald Trump]

We have to rebuild. You have to rebuild the country. And we will rebuild it in a very profitable way. We're going to be using oil and we're going to be taking oil. We're getting oil prices down and we're going to be giving money to Venezuela, which they desperately need. We're going to be helping.

[Michael Barbaro]

One of the things that we all really wanted to know was what would it take for the president to actually send American forces back on the ground.

[Zolin]

In Venezuela, on the importance of the military? What would trigger a decision to send ground troops into Venezuela?

[Donald Trump]

I wouldn't want to tell you that because, you know, I can't. I can't give up information like that to a reporter. As good as you may be, I just can't talk about that. There's a possibility I would do that. Absolutely. You know, I had a second because.

[Michael Barbaro]

The US has really never tried an experiment like the one that we're seeing play out now, which is a kind of virtual or remote control occupation.

[Michael Balbaro]

Right. Running a foreign country, kind of by.

[Michael Barbaro]

Phone or by having an armada floating just offshore. Would you do it if you couldn't get at the oil? Would you do it if they didn't.

[Donald Trump]

Take out the Chinese and the Russians? I can't tell you that. I really wouldn't want to tell you that. But they're treating us with great respect. As you know, we're getting along very well with the administration that is there right now. They're giving us everything that we feel is necessary.

[Michael Barbaro]

But President Trump insisted to us that right now he's getting from the Venezuelan government, which is essentially all filled with Maduro's appointees, everything that he wants. And most of what he wants is access to the oil.

[Katie Rogers]

Given what has happened in Venezuela, the threats against Colombia, the discussions about taking Greenland, buying Greenland. However you're framing this right now, is there anything that you think can constrain your power on the world stage? If you believe that something is against national security? Do you see any checks on your power on the world stage? Is there anything that could stop you if you wanted to?

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, there's one thing. My own morality, my own mind. It's the only thing that can stop.

[Zolin]

Not international law.

[Donald Trump]

I don't need international law. I'm not looking to hurt people. I'm not looking to kill people. I've ended. Remember this? I've ended eight wars. Nobody else has ever done that. I've ended eight wars and didn't get the Nobel Peace Prize. Pretty amazing. Obama got it. He was there for a few weeks and he got it. He didn't even know why he got it. They asked him, why did he get it? He was unable to answer the question. I ended eight wars. If you look at those wars, these were tough wars to end, too. And let me tell you, India and Pakistan were going at it. As you know, they were going at it. But that was one of eight but we ended eight strong wars, some going on for more than 30 years.

[Zolin]

But do you feel your administration needs to abide by international law on the global stage?

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, I do. You know I do. But it depends what your definition of international law is. But the answer is I do. But we have to keep the United States safe. We have to keep parts of the world safe that we feel responsible for. NATO is not feared by Russia or China at all, not even a little bit.

[Michael Balbaro]

David, I found this exchange that the president had with Katie Rogers really fascinating because he is saying that at a moment when he is exercising power, arguably as never before, that international law is not much of a constraint on him. The only constraint, really, is his personal judgment. And he goes on to say that he thinks that situation, him exercising American power kind of at his whim, is what instills in our foes and even in our allies like NATO, the respect and fear required to operate in this world.

[Michael Barbaro]

I think this is one of the most fascinating windows into the way President Trump thinks, because as you just heard there, he views the only check on his power to be his own moral compass, and that outside institutions, whether they're the UN or an international treaty, only means what he interprets it to mean. And that tells you that he wants to operate as a leader with fundamentally no check at all, because he thinks he's a good person, and therefore the world can rely on his good judgments, his good judgment and his good heart. And so we thought we'd sort of stress test that by turning to Greenland.

[Katie Rogers]

Can I circle back to what you had said about NATO? If you had to choose between obtaining Greenland and preserving NATO, what's your higher priority there?

[Donald Trump]

Well, I don't want to say that to you, but it may be a choice. You have to understand. Russia is not at all concerned with NATO other than us. China is not at all concerned with NATO other than us, because sadly, you know, Europe is becoming a much different place, and they really do have to shape up. I want them to shape up. I think we'll always get along with Europe.

[Michael Barbaro]

What he's essentially saying is the US holds all the cards, has all the power, and NATO's not going to have a choice because there is no NATO without the United States. And therefore, if the price of keeping the alliance together is handing the US the right to control Greenland, they're going to do it because they don't have another choice.

[Tyler Pager]

Are you prepared to send troops to Greenland if they do not give over the territory?

[Donald Trump]

Well, we already have troops in Greenland.

[Tyler Pager]

More troops to militarily take over.

[Donald Trump]

I mean, we already. Would you take it over the military? We have, you know, a good section of troops and I've had troops there and I've, you know, upped it.

[Michael Barbaro]

I was there this summer and you could send as many troops as you want and you haven't done it. How come?

[Donald Trump]

Because I want to do it properly. And properly means own it, really, to me, it's ownership. Ownership is very important. You know.

[Michael Barbaro]

Why is ownership important here?

[Donald Trump]

Because that's what I feel is psychologically needed for success. I think that ownership gives you a thing that you can't do, whether you're talking about a lease or a treaty. Ownership gives you things and elements that you can't get from just signing a document that you can have a business.

[Michael Barbaro]

So you're going to ask them to buy.

[Katie Rogers]

Psychologically important to you or to the president?

[Donald Trump]

Psychologically important for me. Now, maybe another president would feel differently, but so far I've been right about everything.

[Tyler Pager]

And you would use military force to get that?

[Donald Trump]

I didn't say that. You said that.

[Tyler Pager]

I'm asking you, would you?

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, I wouldn't comment on that. I don't think it'll be necessary.

[Michael Balbaro]

And can you just explain what he means by that? The psychological value of owning Greenland, not just controlling it, not just having a lot of influence over it, but owning it.

[Michael Barbaro]

The way I read it was, hey, I spent my life as a real estate developer, and I know that you have way more control if you own than if you lease. But that also means I fundamentally don't believe in relying on alliances. And the fact that Denmark, a member of NATO, a member of NATO, which basically controls and protects Greenland, it's not enough for him to have an ally that he's got to do it. Now, you can ask yourself, where does that logic end?

[Michael Balbaro]

Right. Does it end with China taking over Taiwan? Does it end with Russia taking over Ukraine?

[Michael Barbaro]

Does it end with the United States demanding that it doesn't stop at Greenland? Maybe we need Iceland as well.

[Michael Balbaro]

So, David, based on how the President talked about the use of American power overseas, and especially the use of American military power overseas, what were you left thinking by the end of this part of the interview?

[Michael Barbaro]

I was left thinking that the President feels himself unconstrained by law, convention, or the systems that the United States itself built at the end of World War II, after the world had gone through.

[Michael Balbaro]

Two horrific NATO and the entire system of international law.

[Michael Barbaro]

That's right. But at the same time that he's not a warmonger Right. He actually does want that peace prize. He does want to be known as a president of peace. And yet when he's given the choice between long, slow, boring diplomacy and quick action by special operations breaking down doors, he'll go for the special operators.

[Michael Balbaro]

What you're describing is a set of extraordinary contradictions even for Donald Trump.

[Michael Barbaro]

Absolutely. And that is what is both maddening and fascinating about covering the Trump presidency, because you're not going to fit this man into some simple set of theories. He is a bundle of contradictions.

[Michael Balbaro]

Well, David, after the break, we are going to turn to a similar bundle of contradictions when it comes to domestic affairs.

[Donald Trump]

We'll be right back.

[Drake May]

Hey, Drake May here. You know that calm you get when your team has a drive under control? That's the same feeling I get investing and saving with Betterment, their automated technology does the work to help grow your money and save you on taxes. So when the market gets unpredictable, you can stay calm, cool and confident. That's what I call the Betterment effect. And it's why I'm glad they're on my team. Get started [e-mail] investing involves risk performance, not guaranteed paid client ad views may not be representative. See App Store and Google Play Store reviews. Learn [e-mail] pursuitbetterpartners hi, I'm Claire Tennisgetter.

[Claire Tennisgetter]

I'm one of the many names you hear in the list of credits on the Daily every week, a big part of my job as a producer is talking to my colleagues, to New York Times reporters to get their expertise on the news. But we also want to explore the human side of the news. And so another big part of my job is talking to people about how they're experiencing what's happening in the world. That can mean walking up to people on the street, making cold calls. It's spending months making sure we represent all sides of the story, whether it's about what shapes our political identities or how we're coping with crises. We always feel like there's something to learn from these conversations. We often hear from listeners that these types of stories are what makes the Daily special, and we want to keep bringing them to you. We can't do that without subscriber support. If you haven't subscribed to the New York Times, you can do [e-mail] subscribe and thanks.

[Donald Trump]

Very good on behalf of both of them. Have they got us?

[Zolin]

I want to make sure we have time for domestic policy, too. ICE did shoot and kill an American citizen today, according to early reports.

[Michael Balbaro]

David, tell us about the conversation that the four of you had with the president about domestic issues.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, Zolin kicked it off with questions about this horrifying scene we had all just seen play out in Minneapolis just hours before.

[Zolin]

We have also seen protesters met with violent tactics and pepper spray. In some cases, American citizens have also been wrongfully detained. Do any of these incidents or tactics make you think ICE has gone too far?

[Donald Trump]

Well, I think that ICE has been treated very badly. Don't forget, ICE has gotten rid of thousands and thousands of killers, murderers. They've gotten rid of thousands of people that were let into our country during the Biden administration. So stupidly.

[Michael Barbaro]

What about this?

[Donald Trump]

They're very brave, very smart.

[Zolin]

Citizen was shot today.

[Donald Trump]

That's right.

[Zolin]

Does this make you uncomfortable?

[Donald Trump]

Well, everything makes me uncomfortable. I want to see nobody get shot. I want to see nobody screaming and trying to run over policemen, either, or.

[Zolin]

You know, law enforcement disputed by local officials in the South.

[Donald Trump]

Well, if you take a look at the tape, I saw the same tape that you must have seen. I just saw it.

[Katie Rogers]

There were several.

[Michael Barbaro]

There were several angles on that.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I know, but if you take a look at that, that was a vicious situation that took place. And if you go before that, and in my opinion, the screamer, that woman that was screaming, shame, shame, shame. That's not normal. That was a practiced, rehearsed, professional agitator, even.

[Katie Rogers]

So are those appropriate policing tactics for somebody to fire into a vehicle like that, in your mind, is that.

[Donald Trump]

Well, they ran him over. I mean, they ran.

[Michael Barbaro]

And Trump just sort of reflexively defended the officers and claimed that the driver had run over one of them. And we had all seen this video. Right. Immediately sort of stepped in to challenge.

[Donald Trump]

The account, try to run a motion video.

[Zolin]

Didn't look like he was. He was run over.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I play the tape for you right now. Do you want to just whip it out? Look to me to be very bad. I've just put out the tape.

[Michael Barbaro]

And so Trump said, well, let's just watch it together. To our surprise, that's exactly what happened.

[Zolin]

Well, people here show that these tactics made you uncomfortable. You know, you've had citizens that have also been wrongfully detained here.

[Katie Rogers]

Yeah, we've seen that one.

[Michael Barbaro]

We've seen that video.

[Tyler Pager]

Yeah.

[Michael Barbaro]

One of his aides brought over a laptop, slowed down a version of the tape. Does not look like the ICE officer has been run over there. Now, maybe from a different angle, we.

[Donald Trump]

Would see the way I look at it. Oh, sure. If you look at that. Terrible scene.

[Tyler Pager]

Yeah.

[Michael Barbaro]

We all agree on.

[Katie Rogers]

You say it's horrible to watch. You said that on truth social media.

[Donald Trump]

I think it's horrible. I hate to see was sort of.

[Michael Barbaro]

A strange form of real time fact checking of the President with it clear that the president wasn't entirely comfortable with what he was seeing on that laptop or what these ICE agents were doing.

[Zolin]

So just take a step back here.

[Michael Barbaro]

Because this and then from there, sold. And the president sort of turn to a different topic about what the real aim of the president's immigration restrictions are and who they're supposed to target.

[Zolin]

Your administration has also suggested that some people who are naturalized citizens could see their citizenship strict. Which groups do you think should lose citizenship?

[Donald Trump]

Well, I think Somalia is a disaster, to be honest with you. I look at what's happening in Minnesota and you look at this country, it's one of the worst in the world. It's acknowledged to be truly one of the most corrupt, one of the most vicious, violent countries in the world. Even the ships, they go after the ships. They don't do that anymore because if they go after the ships, you know what, they get hit by the same missile that we hit.

[Michael Barbaro]

The Stallman's question is, would you strip them of their nationality if they deserve to be stripped?

[Donald Trump]

I would, yeah.

[Michael Barbaro]

So what would the criteria you would want?

[Donald Trump]

Well, we're looking at criteria right now, but if they deserve to be stripped, David, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Yeah.

[Zolin]

You don't think that your comments about those of Somali descent have painted a broad brush on your own citizenship?

[Donald Trump]

I don't care. I want great people in this country. I want people that love the country. And I think that many of the people that came in from Somalia, they hate our country. They can't. And they've. And not only do they hate our country, they've ripped off our country. They've ripped it off. They've stolen billions of dollars. It's shocking. From where they came, they had nothing. And they come here and they steal. And it's an embarrassment to the intelligence of the people of Minnesota and to the people of our country that they would be allowed to do it.

[Zolin]

I've heard many people that say this is generalizing a population.

[Michael Balbaro]

But.

[Zolin]

And find these comments.

[Donald Trump]

You call it whatever you want.

[Zolin]

I want to ask if part of your immigration agenda is also aimed at changing the racial makeup of this country.

[Donald Trump]

No, not at all.

[Zolin]

Is part of this. This agenda aimed at.

[Donald Trump]

I just want people that love our country. It's very simple. I want people that love our country. I Want people that respect our country, respect the laws of our country. And I want people that can embrace our country.

[Zolin]

Because you've called refugees that can make America great again, you have a trapped ban on the majority African American.

[Michael Barbaro]

Solon raises an interesting point. The only immigrants who can come in right now are white South Africans. Right?

[Zolin]

Refugees.

[Michael Barbaro]

The way of refugees.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I haven't seen that. I mean, I certainly haven't seen that. But over the years, it's been very much the opposite of that. Very, very much the opposite of that. People are coming into our country. Nobody's doing it based on race.

[Michael Balbaro]

Trump is positing to you all that his immigration restrictions are not about race, they're not intentionally about race, when the reality is that they are allowing for very few people of color to enter the country. The people who are banned from entering the US Right now, and there are bans on a lot of countries, they are almost uniformly from countries where the populations are black and brown. The very few people he is letting in are white. The pattern becomes difficult to ignore.

[Michael Barbaro]

It sure does. And look, he says he just wants people who love this country to be allowed in. But what we're learning is he basically only wants to favor white South Africans, as I raised with him, or the immigrants he wants the most are those who bring special skills that can help our economy. And that's a very select group.

[Zolin]

Do you think some industries still need immigrant labor?

[Donald Trump]

Yes. Which ones they need inexpensive? Well, there are different things. We need people to come in. Just so you understand something, I'm all for people coming into our country through the border legally. If they come in legally, I want them more than they want me and more than they want this country. And if you look at my first term, and if you look at this term, I want. We need people. We're building factories all over the country. We're building. But I want them to come in.

[Zolin]

Needed to be protected.

[Donald Trump]

Respectfully. I want them to come in legally.

[Zolin]

But you said agriculture and hotels that you wanted ICE to use common sense against them. Right?

[Donald Trump]

I want them to use.

[Zolin]

Have you directed ICE to ease deportation against those industries?

[Donald Trump]

Yes, I am.

[Zolin]

Are there other industries that you've directed ice?

[Donald Trump]

Because I watch farmers and I deal with farmers, and I want 90% of the farmers more than that. And they're great people, and they have great people working for them who have been working for them for 25 years. They're almost like a member of the family.

[Zolin]

Are there other industries?

[Donald Trump]

And I don't want those people thrown.

[Michael Barbaro]

Out of the country.

[Zolin]

Are there other industries or companies that you've directed ICE to ease deportations on.

[Michael Barbaro]

The South Korean state?

[Tyler Pager]

Some.

[Donald Trump]

Some service industries. Some. I'll give you an example. In Georgia with South Korea, they make batteries. Batteries are very complex and they're very dangerous to make. And they make them. And they brought in three or four hundred people who specialize in them. I grabbed them all and they threw them out. And I was very angry about it. You know why? Because they have to open a factory. And you can't take a person off the street who's never seen a battery before and think that they're going to make highly complex batteries.

[Michael Barbaro]

He actually invoked the ICE raid on that Hyundai plant in Georgia where they deported a whole bunch of South Korean workers who were there setting up a car battery factory.

[Donald Trump]

You have to allow them to bring some of their experts with them or they're never going to be able to open their plant to effect.

[Zolin]

It sounds like you were angry at had ICE for this raid on the Hyundai facility.

[Donald Trump]

I was not happy about it. No, I was not happy about it. They're making batteries. Batteries are very dangerous and actually very complex. And they brought people that make batteries and those people would have trained our people how to make batteries and at some point they would have gone back because they want to go back to their country.

[Michael Balbaro]

So in Trump's telling here, and I was struck by this, that a fair number of American workers just may not be qualified to do the kind of highly technical manufacturing that he's prioritizing right now. Something like, you know, car batteries. And what's interesting about that, of course, is President Trump runs on a message of remembering forgotten America. The blue collar working class Americans, many of whom used to be in the manufacturing sector, who need jobs now in the new economy. And he's kind of saying, let's be honest, a lot of those people, they can't do this work.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, I think what he's saying is they certainly can't do it at the beginning.

[Michael Balbaro]

Immigrants can.

[Michael Barbaro]

That's right. You can't just drop a car battery factory and expect it to be up and running without the help of the technical workers that they need to get it up and running. And the American workers aren't going to catch on until that happens.

[Donald Trump]

To be honest, I'd love to be able to create an immigration policy that works for everyone.

[Zolin]

You'd like a comprehensive immigration reform?

[Donald Trump]

I would love to do it if it was possible.

[Michael Barbaro]

Is Congress willing to go do that? George Bush tried.

[Donald Trump]

If the Democrats would do it. I'd do it. I'd love to have a comprehensive immigration policy, something that really worked. It's about time for the country to have.

[Tyler Pager]

What would that look like? Excuse me, what would a comprehensive.

[Donald Trump]

I don't want to go into that because it's a very, it's a very ticklish subject. But I believe that there is a plan that can work for everybody.

[Michael Balbaro]

David, I wonder if you were as surprised as I was in listening to this interview by the president's sudden enthusiasm for something like comprehensive immigration reform. I'm sure you remember this as well as I do. Comprehensive immigration reform is a word that if a Republican invokes, they are in big, big trouble because it almost always implies that you're going to create a legal path for those here illegally. That's the comprehensive part of immigration reform. In the past, President Trump has sought to kill any form of comprehensive immigration reform. And suddenly he's saying, I want this.

[Michael Barbaro]

You know, Michael, to hear President Trump come back and discuss this. I was sitting there thinking how is his own base going to go react to this? Because yes, the core of it is you do find a pathway for at least some to get to citizenship. And I'm not sure the current Trump base is ready for that.

[Katie Rogers]

Can we move on to the economy? I would like to ask you about Republican pollsters lately are warning that you and the party is losing ground with young voters, particularly young men who are concerned with job prospects.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I might be. Could I have the TikTok thing?

[Katie Rogers]

But what would you say to those young.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I'd say they're rigged polls. Look, the polls are rigged just like the writers.

[Katie Rogers]

But these are Republican pollsters who are warning your party that you are not.

[Donald Trump]

Doing enough to focus on American jobs. I think I can't tell you. I think this just came out from TikTok. It came out just recently that Donald Trump was number one on TikTok and the most popular person. So you can have these.

[Michael Balbaro]

David. On the economy, the president pretty forcefully waves off the idea, which we keep finding in poll after poll and in election results from the last off year election, that voters, including many Republican voters, are persistently feeling anxious about the economy and they don't think he is focused enough on it.

[Michael Barbaro]

You know, we kept trying to steer him back to this to try to get him to think about the economic anxieties of ordinary Americans.

[Zolin]

Mr. President, so many voters voted for you because of the economy. And I think, Katie, just to wants.

[Donald Trump]

Want to get the economy is probably the best. It's look, the economy right Now I have trillions and trillions of dollars coming into this economy, more than any nation has ever had by far. Our economy is unbelievable. And I'm bringing down the prices. Remember this. I did cause the high prices. Biden did. Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait one second. I inherited a mess. Listen, I inherited a mess. I inherited a highly inflated, horribly run country. The borders were bad, the military was bad. The Afghanistan was the worst, worst day in the history of our country. Maybe in the history. I think it was the lowest point. You know what? That was the lowest point. And we may right now be at the highest point there are in the.

[Katie Rogers]

History of the economy. The economy is growing. Wages are keeping up with inflation. But there are other indicators that people, people are hurting. High earners. 10% of high earners make half the economy grow.

[Donald Trump]

I'm bringing. They're hurting because of Biden. I'm bringing.

[Katie Rogers]

No, high earners are not hurting. It's the low earners, it's the middle earners, it's the people that you're supposed to help. What do you say to them?

[Donald Trump]

If you look at my achievements, the greatest percentage wise, the greatest beneficiaries of my economy in my first term were low income workers. And it's turning out to be right now, blue collar workers are doing better than anybody else, percentage wise as they measure that. I inherited a mess. It was high prices, it was high inflation, it was high crime. You know, did you see where murders are the lowest they've ever been? Did you see where crime is at the lowest point it's ever been?

[Michael Barbaro]

Do you know why?

[Donald Trump]

Because they closed the border and we don't have criminals pouring into our country.

[Tyler Pager]

Mr. President, do you. A few more on the economy, do you think? Are you basically telling Americans that they have to wait a little bit longer? Particularly low and middle income Americans?

[Donald Trump]

I can't fix what they destroyed in four years immediately, but if you look at it, I have more investment income coming in than any president than any country has ever had.

[Michael Balbaro]

What I've done, I mean, it felt in these exchanges that this concept of the President as insulated from the American economic challenges of this moment was very vividly on display. And you don't sense that he is empathetic to those who are worried about the economy. In fact, he kind of disputes the premise that there is anything wrong with the economy.

[Michael Barbaro]

That's right. Or that new technology like artificial intelligence would bring about more economic anxiety.

[Tyler Pager]

Mr. President, just on AI, there are many Americans who are concerned that AI is, AI is going to Take their jobs and they will not. Will be out of work.

[Donald Trump]

I think just the opposite. I think AI is going to be a tremendous job producer. I think that we have so many jobs, my biggest problem isn't taking the jobs, is that we don't have enough people to fill the jobs. And that's where robots come in.

[Michael Barbaro]

And so I think you've got to come to your own conclusion about whether or not there's anything in this interview that would make an ordinary American feel better about supermarket prices or tightening job market, or the anxieties that come from the arrival of a new and somewhat terrifying new technology that's going to have effects that none of us can predict.

[Michael Balbaro]

So, David, how does this interview ultimately come to an end?

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, the president had stuff he wanted us to see.

[Zolin]

These are two personnel actions that Scavino's team asked about.

[Katie Rogers]

President to.

[Donald Trump]

Oh, I'll sign it in two seconds. Sorry, sir. This is a much more important thing to do. So this is the ballroom right here. It's beautiful. People love it.

[Michael Barbaro]

And after nearly two hours of conversation, he got up, started pointing out paintings he had dug out of the vault of the White House and hung.

[Donald Trump]

Oh, get. Get me the model real fast. I'll show up should.

[Michael Barbaro]

I talked about his plans for the White House complex. All a reminder that while he is taking out the leader of Venezuela and threatening to reengage with the Iranians and denying that there's any reason for people to be anxious about the economy, as.

[Donald Trump]

An example, have you seen the white marble floor there?

[Tyler Pager]

No.

[Katie Rogers]

No.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I'm going back up, so if you want, you could follow me.

[Katie Rogers]

Yeah, that'd be fair.

[Donald Trump]

Oh, let me just finish this, sir.

[Michael Barbaro]

He's also busy thinking about rebuilding the White House.

[Michael Balbaro]

Sir, do you want to show them the renovation?

[Donald Trump]

Yeah. Let's go.

[Michael Barbaro]

Come on.

[Donald Trump]

Nice setup, right, Katie? Good. Two hours, Katie? I could go nine hours.

[Tyler Pager]

We're going to continue, sir.

[Donald Trump]

Can I get two signatures? You know, I did a treadmill.

[Michael Balbaro]

Well, David, thank you very much for walking us through this fascinating conversation with the president. When we come back, we're going to ask that all four of you who conducted this interview sit down together and briefly reflect on the conversation and what you all took from it. So we'll be right back.

[Drake May]

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[Michael Balbaro]

York Times app has all this stuff.

[Zolin]

That you may not have seen.

[Katie Rogers]

The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.

[Zolin]

I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling.

[Donald Trump]

I go to games always doing the.

[Michael Barbaro]

Mini, doing the wordle.

[Katie Rogers]

I loved how much content it exposed me to things that I never would have thought to turn to a news app for.

[Michael Barbaro]

This app is essential.

[Donald Trump]

The New York Times app, all of the times all in one place. Download it [e-mail] app.

[Michael Balbaro]

So Tyler, Katie, Zolin, David just walked us through the highlights of the interview that the four of you did with him. Because this went on for so long, there's inevitably a lot of material that we couldn't cover. So I want to begin by just asking each of you, what's one thing he said that we probably didn't cover with David? That's really going to stick with you when you reflect back on this interview.

[Katie Rogers]

Katie I think it's the degree to which the president throughout this interview really wanted credit and he wanted gestures of goodwill from people he wanted respect from, be it Democrats, Republicans, members of the news media, the American public. And one of the ways I felt that that was manifesting during this whole encounter was he's building a ballroom where the East Wing used to be, big enough to host an inauguration inside for future presidents. And he kept going back to this idea that he's a builder. He mentioned that maybe he was a better builder than he ever has been at politics. And at one point he summons a military aide to bring in an architectural rendering with miniature models of the ballroom and is sort of almost telling us and himself that building being built over there. They'll be thanking me as if this is the project that will do it, that will give him this credit that he has been seeking in this term, his last term, and throughout his time in public life.

[Michael Balbaro]

Zolin, what about you?

[Zolin]

Katie made the good point of how the president is so motivated by whether or not he's getting credit. And it's not just about whether he's getting credit now, but it seems he's also motivated by whether or not he got credit in the first term. And he did not seem bothered at all when we asked him about his relatives and the business deals and the money that they've made across the world throughout his second term. When we pressed him on this, he was saying, well, in his view, his family showed restraint in the first term and he didn't get credit.

[Michael Balbaro]

Showed restraint in terms of what he was willing to do in the name of making his family money.

[Zolin]

That's right. And thus now in this term, he said that he was pretty much unbothered about the business deals that his family has been able to pursue. All this, I think, speaks to a president who's so much more emboldened in this second term. And I think we saw up close and personal just how emboldened he is.

[Michael Balbaro]

Tyler.

[Tyler Pager]

One thing that I think stood out to me, Michael, is a conversation we had about antisemitism because it's become such a flashpoint within the Republican Party as we see this inter party warfare over whether or not there is space in the Republican Party and the broader Make America Great Again movement for people who espouse anti Semitic.

[Michael Balbaro]

Fuentes. Right.

[Tyler Pager]

And J.D. vance, his vice president, said basically that as long as you love America, you're welcome. And he didn't want to institute purity.

[Michael Balbaro]

Even if you're anti Semitic.

[Tyler Pager]

Right. And I asked President Trump whether or not there was room in his movement for people with anti Semitic views. And he said, no, I don't think we need them. I don't think we like them. And that puts him at odds with leading Republican figures, including his vice president, who seemed more open to including people who spread hateful views within the party. It was a moment where he really came out quite strongly against people who spread anti Semitism. When this debate is coursing through his movement and among his supporters.

[Michael Balbaro]

Right. He's drawing a pretty bright red line there. So one last question for each of you. What is your ultimate takeaway from this conversation?

[Zolin]

For me, there were moments in this interview where it almost seemed like the president was a bystander to his own policies, to his own agenda. There were times where he would speak, for example, about an interest in comprehensive immigration reform and a potential pathway to citizenship. Well, he has also directed his aides to go pursue mass deportations. And you know, he talked about, well, ICE needs to be careful around certain. You run ice. Yeah, you run ice. And also Stephen Miller works for you. Stephen Miller has been clear about pursuing mass deportations as well. So it was that distance he almost seemed to sort of try to create between himself and in some of the actions that his administration is taking.

[Michael Balbaro]

Yeah, that is fascinating. Katie, what about you?

[Katie Rogers]

My major takeaway from this is that there are many faces to President Trump. And even throughout that interview, it was a real exercise in wrangling those different Personas because he was combative, he was upbeat at times. He was very almost docile when we were asking him probing questions about his health. And so instead of being the President Trump who has called reporters seditious for asking questions about his health, he allowed Tyler to ask him if he'd ever taken a GLP1 medication before. He said no.

[Michael Balbaro]

Quick interjection. What did he say?

[Tyler Pager]

He said he had not, but he probably should.

[Katie Rogers]

David asked him if he was on any blood thinners besides aspirin. The answer was no.

[Michael Balbaro]

Yeah. Very personal questions.

[Katie Rogers]

I asked him if he had ever had a heart attack.

[Michael Balbaro]

These are questions no.

[Katie Rogers]

The answer was no. But the point is, this was a different version of him. And you never know which version of him you are going to get. And he knows that. He knows that if a foreign leader calls him, that person does not know who is on the other end of.

[Zolin]

The line, which Persona.

[Katie Rogers]

Yes. And that means that this president can dangle consequences, can show up as magnanimous, he can show up as threatening. I think that is my main takeaway going forward.

[Michael Balbaro]

It's fascinating, David.

[Michael Barbaro]

You know, all presidents in their second term turn more to foreign policy, not only because they've got greater leverage and greater freedom, but because they want to establish a legacy. And I think the first thing I took away from it is this is somebody who thinks about building a foreign policy legacy and building buildings. The second thing that really jumped out at me was that he was spending this time with the New York Times because he really wants an approval for this new vision of a muscular America. And I think he was making what he thought was a significant investment in trying to explain a new approach to managing the globe.

[Tyler Pager]

Tyler, what was remarkable to me as we were in there for quite some time, was just watching how the Oval Office operated and the bubble around the president to support all of his needs, whether that's him pressing the red button on his desk to get a Diet Coke, or the aide that runs out multiple times of the Oval Office to pick up different pieces of paper that he has requested she print out as evidence for whatever point he's making, or just the people walking in and out of the Oval Office with notes, whether that's a foreign leader is on the call or an aide is waiting outside to him combining meetings. There were documents he had to sign and he just had that person come in with the paperwork. As we were sitting there for the interview, his phone, his personal cell phone was ringing multiple times. He took one call from the Fox News anchor, Brett Baer. But it was really just quite amazing to see how chaotic, frankly, the Oval Office can be. And we've reported on how this unfolds. But I think sitting in the Oval Office for an extended period of time and watching it up close really gives you the sense of how Trump makes decisions, how he thinks and how his world operates.

[Michael Balbaro]

Well, to all four of you, thank you very much. Thank you.

[Katie Rogers]

Thank you.

[Michael Barbaro]

Thank you, Michael.

[Michael Balbaro]

Here's what else you need to know. Today.

[Michael Barbaro]

The A's are 52, the nays are 47.

[Donald Trump]

The motion is agreed to.

[Michael Barbaro]

The joint resolution will be placed on the calendar.

[Michael Balbaro]

On Thursday, a bipartisan group of senators voted to advance a resolution that would force President Trump to seek congressional authorization for continued military operations in Venezuela. Five Republican senators joined all Democrats in backing the resolution. One of them, Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, said that one factor behind his vote was Trump's suggestion, made in his interview with the Times, that the United States might remain involved in Venezuela for years. And in Minnesota, local authorities are accusing the federal government of blocking them from investigating why an ICE agent killed a 37 year old woman in her car. The accusation came as federal immigration agents in Portland, Oregon shot two people in their car on Thursday, apparently under similar circumstances. Federal officials accused the two people in Oregon of weaponizing their car against the agents. Today's episode was produced by Asta Chaturvini, Stella Tan and Mary Wilson. It was edited by Rachel Quester with help from Paige Cowett, contains music by Romy Misto and Dan Powell and was engineered by Chris Wood. Special thanks to Afim Shapiro. That's it for the daily. I'm michael babaro. See you on Monday.