An I.V.F. Mix-Up and an Impossible Choice

Summary

The Daily – “An I.V.F. Mix-Up and an Impossible Choice”

Date: January 16, 2026
Host: Michael Barbaro
Guest: Sue Dominus (Reporter), Alexander “Xander” Cardinale, Daphna Cardinale

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Michael Barbaro and Sue Dominus explore the harrowing and emotional story of two families permanently intertwined by an unfathomable error: their embryos were accidentally swapped during in vitro fertilization (IVF), leading both couples to give birth to and bond with babies that were not genetically their own. The episode charts the discovery of this mix-up, the painful choices both families faced, and the creative, compassionate path they forged together as modern definitions of family are stretched—and reaffirmed.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rise and Risks of IVF

[02:17-04:47] Sue Dominus describes how IVF, though revolutionary, remains underregulated and susceptible to rare but devastating mistakes:

• IVF has enabled countless families but operates largely outside of strict federal regulation.
• Despite its promise, the industry contains a shadow of error: “I have always been curious about what exactly is happening behind the scenes and what kind of possibility is there for error. And when that does happen, what can the consequences really turn out to be for people?” (Sue Dominus, [03:31])

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2. Introducing the Cardinale Family

[04:52-07:27]

• Xander (musician) and Daphna (therapist) Cardinale, after a long struggle with infertility, turn to IVF for their second child.
• They are overjoyed upon the birth of a healthy baby girl, whom they nickname “Mae.”
• Early family moments are filled with affection and bonding, especially between Mae and her older sister, Olivia.

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3. The Sense That “Something’s Off”

[08:26-11:15]

• Xander and Daphna begin to notice that Mae looks strikingly unlike either of them or Olivia, their firstborn.

• Xander, plagued by doubts, jokes uneasily about an IVF clinic mistake:

  “I would make a joke, like, maybe the IVF clinic made a mistake...I would throw it out there to see what the reaction would be.”
  (Xander, [09:56])

• Daphna, initially dismissive, gradually internalizes the unease, especially after comments from Xander’s best friend.

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4. Confronting the Unthinkable

[11:35-15:51]

• At three months old, Mae’s resemblance issues prompt Daphna to speak with Xander’s friend Morgan, who bluntly asserts:

  “I think I’m like 90% that one of you isn’t her parent.” (Morgan via Daphna, [12:20])

• The couple orders a genetic test, which, after some confusion, confirms their worst fears:

  “99.9% positive that the subject is not the father.”
  “99.9% chance you're not the mother.”
  (Test results, [15:01-15:43])

• Neither Daphna nor Xander is the genetic parent of the child they love and have been raising.

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5. Devastation and Deliberation

[17:32-19:18]

• Both are shattered; denial and fantasies of “running away” mix with the overwhelming reality.

• They methodically consider “doing nothing,” but ultimately:

  “Every time, it would always end with, what is the right thing for her? And the right thing for her was never just to keep quiet and just pretend like it didn’t happen.”
  (Xander, [18:26])

• A new, darker question arises: where is their genetic child? What if their own baby is being raised by strangers, perhaps even in another part of the world?

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6. Locating the Biological Families

[19:46-22:19]

• Lawyers contact the IVF clinic and soon discover another local family is raising a baby genetically tied to Daphna and Xander.

• Both families agree to DNA testing, revealing their daughters had, in fact, been swapped as embryos.

• The other family is revealed to be Asian American and Latina, living just miles away—both mothers had even raised concerns to the same pediatrician about their babies’ dissimilarities.

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7. Meeting and the Impossible Decision

[26:59-34:50]

• First, the parents are cautiously optimistic through lawyer-mediated contact, then meet face-to-face at a lawyer’s office.

• Instead of rivalry, empathy blossoms:

  “[At first meeting,] Daphne and Maimie’s biological mother have this deep, deep hug…because I think so many people might see that other mother as the enemy…But they both recognized in each other that almost no one in the world was experiencing the same pain that they each were.”
  (Sue Dominus, [28:45-29:46])

• Together, the families agree on a gradual, compassionate transition—meeting each other’s children first, then phasing in time with each baby to allow emotional adjustment.

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8. The Baby Exchange—Love and Grief

[35:16-37:44]

• Despite their thoughtful plan, the process proves intensely difficult; extending visits only allows bonds to deepen with both babies, making goodbye more painful.

• Three weeks after initial contact, a “final switch” is made.

• The parents continue to struggle with guilt and grief:

  “Pretty much, like, wailing in the shower…the only super private place I could get was, like, the shower. And so I would take a shower at night and just completely fall apart.”
  (Daphna, [37:09-37:31])

• Daphna reaches a turning point, realizing her obligation and love for Zoe must come ahead of her grief:

  “I’m the one for Zoe, so she deserves to have me be fully present…If I get hurt the same way again, I get hurt in the same way again. But she has all of me.”
  (Daphna, [38:58-39:59])

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9. Building a New Kind of Family

[40:17-42:15]

• Rather than sever ties, the two families form a close bond—creating a “pandemic pod” during COVID and celebrating holidays and milestones together.
• The girls, Mae and Zoe, develop a unique “sister/best friend” relationship:

  “They talk about each other like sister, best friends, best friend, sisters, sister, friends…sometimes they feel like sisters and sometimes they feel like friends.”
  (Daphna, [41:40])

• The families’ openness is portrayed as a triumph of humanity over circumstance.

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10. Reflections on Love, Family, and the Future

[42:15-end]

• Michael Barbaro notes:

  “This has been a story about the choices we make to love…” ([44:08])

• Sue Dominus concludes:

  “[They] were making a choice, you know, either to close their heart or to make it bigger. And it’s to everyone’s benefit that they were able to make the choices that they did.”
  ([44:55])

• The story is framed as both a cautionary tale about the risks of IVF and a testament to the evolving, elastic boundaries of what a family can mean in the 21st century.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Xander’s anxiety on not seeing himself in his baby:

  “I was arguing internally with myself and trying to convince myself that everything was fine constantly.” ([09:56])

• On the pain of letting go:

  “For me, falling apart. Not to be super dramatic about it, but pretty much, like, wailing in the shower…” (Daphna, [37:09])

• On making space for new definitions of family:

  “There will probably always continue to be new permutations of family that we haven’t anticipated…our idea family might only continue to expand over time.” (Sue Dominus, [42:58])

• On the decision to forge a connection:

  “It was like, oh, this is just family now.” (Xander, [41:12])

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Chronological “Moment Map” (Timestamps)

• 02:17 — Sue Dominus introduces IVF’s promise and pitfalls
• 05:13 — Cardinale family profile and desire for a second child
• 08:26 - 11:15 — Initial doubts about resemblance
• 12:15 — Outside friend voices suspicions explicitly
• 15:29 - 15:51 — DNA tests confirm neither is parent
• 18:26 — Moral reckoning: “What’s right for Mae?”
• 22:04 - 22:19 — Discovery of the other family
• 28:29 - 29:46 — First heartfelt meeting of mothers
• 35:16 - 37:44 — The transition and emotional rupture
• 38:58 - 39:59 — Daphna’s resolution to give all to Zoe
• 41:40 — The children’s “best friend/sister” relationship
• 44:08 - 44:55 — Reflections on the resilient choice to love

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Tone & Style

The tone is intimate, honest, and reflective, interweaving personal vulnerability, scientific context, and ethical complexity. Both host and guests speak with candor, empathy, and an eye toward the hopeful despite profound difficulty.

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Conclusion

This episode, through careful reporting and open-hearted storytelling, illuminates how a once unthinkable error forced two families to confront—and expand—what it means to be family. It’s a meditation on the power of chosen love, the challenges of modern reproductive technology, and the boundless potential for grace in the face of tragedy.

Transcript

[Capital One Commercial Bank Announcer]

This message comes from Capital One Commercial Bank. Your business requires commercial banking solutions that prioritize your long term success with Capital One. Get a full suite of financial products and services tailored to meet your needs today and goals for tomorrow. Learn [e-mail] Commercial Member FDIC hey, it's Michael.

[Michael Barbaro]

A little bit of news from us from here on out. Natalie, Rachel and I are going to be hosting new episodes of THE Daily on Sundays. It's a chance to tell all kinds of stories that we have a harder time covering during the week. And we're genuinely really excited about this and we hope that you are, too. You can listen to the first of these this Sunday, so tune in. And now, here's today's show. From the new york times. I'm michael balbaro. This is the daily. For millions of families, IVF is a modern medical miracle. But for a small number of parents, the largely unregulated field can go terribly wrong. Today, Pseudominous brings us the remarkable story of how two families navigated an unthinkable IVF mistake that will connect them for the rest of their lives. It's Friday, January 16th. Sue, welcome back.

[Sue Dominus]

Thank you so much.

[Michael Barbaro]

So you're fast becoming the family correspondent here on THE daily. You have come on the show to talk about motherhood, menopause, siblings, how siblings shape one another's destiny. I'm curious how you first discovered the story that we're going to be talking about in today's edition of SUE dominus.

[Sue Dominus]

FAMILY correspondent yeah, I mean, for whatever reason, I am someone, maybe because I was the youngest of three and always was kind of the observer, I've always had this interest in how families work. So both from my own childhood, but also as the mother of fraternal twins myself. But there was one fundamental way that American families have changed over the past few decades that, that I hadn't really explored. And that's how some families now can start.

[Michael Barbaro]

And tell me what you mean.

[Sue Dominus]

Well, I'm talking about something that we kind of take for granted but is really quite revolutionary in the history of humanity, which is IVF or in vitro fertilization. Everybody seems to know somebody who was either conceived that way or has turned to it. But it really is for many people, I think, one of the great miraculous and meaningful scientific advancements of the 20th century.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Sue Dominus]

It allows women to put off having kids until later in life. It allows women not to worry so much about the aging of their eggs. It allows people who have infertility for one reason or another to conceive and I might add that I include my own family in this history.

[Michael Barbaro]

Your children are IVF babies?

[Capital One Commercial Bank Announcer]

Yes.

[Sue Dominus]

They are well aware, and I don't think they'd mind my sharing that, but maybe because it was my experience and because I know the industry to be kind of shockingly under regulated, I have always been curious about what exact is happening behind the scenes and what kind of possibility is there for error. And when that does happen, what can the consequences really turn out to be for people? So I started looking into stories about IVF that had unusual twists and turns. And I have to say, you don't have to look too hard to find some of those stories. But the one that moved me the most is a story about a couple who went through something really unimaginable. It was a story that really expanded my idea of what a loving family could be, how people can approach the very idea of family with grace and generosity and so much faith in humanity. And it really, I have to say, was quite affirming for my faith and humanity.

[Michael Barbaro]

Sue, tell us about this couple and this saga.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

My name is Alexander Cardinale.

[Daphna Cardinale]

I'm Daphna Cardinale.

[Sue Dominus]

So their names are Daphne and Alexander Cardinale. He also goes by Xander. They are in their 40s, and they live in California. And Daphna is a therapist, and Xander is a musician and songwriter who is also studying to become a therapist.

[Daphna Cardinale]

I think I've always known that I wanted to be a parent, and for.

[Sue Dominus]

Them, being parents was always in the.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Plan when we were talking about it, I think we always sort of visualized two, and I always sort of felt the energy of two kids.

[Sue Dominus]

They had a child named Olivia, but as they were kind of rounding their 40s, they had waited a few years, and now they decided they wanted to have a second child.

[Daphna Cardinale]

And we were trying for what seemed like forever, you know.

[Sue Dominus]

So after trying and failing to conceive, they decided to meet with some doctors.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

For whatever reason, because of our ages and whatnot, IVF was suggested pretty much up front, Right.

[Sue Dominus]

And IVF works for them. Daphna gets pregnant. They are thrilled to learn that they will be having another baby girl. And they start to get to know her even before she's born.

[Daphna Cardinale]

You know, I'm one of those people who, like, I talk to the baby, I'm like, we're gonna go do this now. We're doing that now.

[Sue Dominus]

And while Daphne is pregnant, she talked to the baby in her womb, and Xander would sing for her. What were you singing, Xander? What did you sing to her?

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

I Think I sang Made for you a lot. Made for you was the one that was. Oh, darling, that was made for you. And I would kind of sing that to her in her belly. And then I would speak to her so she would know my voice.

[Sue Dominus]

And then, finally, in the fall, Daphna gives birth to a beautiful baby girl.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

We just were smitten and instantly in love. And the family felt complete. And this little person's energy and her little spirit, everything about her just kind of filled out our family.

[Sue Dominus]

And they asked me to keep the name they gave her private. So for the rest of the story, we'll be using her nickname, May or May.

[Daphna Cardinale]

She was perfect. She was huge. They were telling me, they're like, she's almost 10 pounds. She was huge. And they're like, oh, she's got a lot of hair. And I was like, so did I. I'm like, that's my baby.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Well, that's the thing.

[Sue Dominus]

And when they get her home, the family really feels complete.

[Daphna Cardinale]

But Olivia was really falling in love with her so deeply that we had a lot of special time where Olivia would put on shows for her and draw her pictures and sing her songs, and it was really sweet. What's it like to feed her? I can feel her sucking a little bit.

[Sue Dominus]

She sucks the bottles hard.

[Daphna Cardinale]

She does, yeah.

[Sue Dominus]

Olivia is bonding instantly with her sister. She's madly in love.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Can you say Olivia?

[Sue Dominus]

Yeah.

[Daphna Cardinale]

I think she did. She said your name. Did you hear that?

[Sue Dominus]

They're all just super blissed out and in love. And for Daphna, the long struggle to conceive a second child is finally over.

[Michael Barbaro]

And here I sense a twist in this story is coming.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Yeah.

[Sue Dominus]

Sadly, that is true. As the baby starts growing and looking more like herself, Xander and Daphna starts noticing a few things. Daphne is a natural redhead. She has fair skin. Xander has blue gray eyes. He's also quite fair. Their first daughter, Olivia, is just blonde, blond, blonde. And Mei Mei had this really dark, straight black hair.

[Daphna Cardinale]

I was really searching in her for, like, who does she look like?

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

She didn't look like Olivia, but she did look exactly like the birth pictures of my wife. And we were like, oh, wow, it's so cool. That, like, it's just, you know, she must take after you. Like, you know, so we just kind of.

[Sue Dominus]

Mae did look a lot like Daphna did in her own super early baby pictures. And sometimes they just thought, yeah, genetics are weird. She must look like somebody in our background whom we don't know, or we're.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Just not thinking of I just held tight to an idea that she must really be taking after a side of Daphne's family which was more Sephardic looking and.

[Sue Dominus]

But at this early stage of their family, the issue does start eating away at Xander. It's really on his mind that this daughter looks so unlike either of them, and he's really not sure what to do with that.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

I was arguing internally with myself and trying to convince myself that everything was fine constantly. And then when that would sort of boil over to a boiling point to where it was bubbling out and bubbling over, I think that's when the comments would come out of me to her, because deep down, I wanted reassurance or I wanted camaraderie, or I wanted just someone to be witnessing or seeing it with. And I wanted her to see what I was seeing. And so I would make a joke, like, you know, maybe the IVF clinic made a mistake, or, you know, it sounded ludicrous even saying it out loud at the time. And so I would say it to kind of throw it out there, like a comic testing a bad joke at a nightclub. I would throw it out there to see what the reaction would be.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Yeah, it didn't land.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

It wasn't landing.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Well, no.

[Sue Dominus]

But as time goes on, this does start to bother Daphna, and it's also bothering her that Xander just does not seem like himself. He's very distracted. And she can see that her daughter looks really different from both of them. If anything, she would say that she looked possibly like her ancestry would be Asian, and neither of them has any Asian background. So she starts to wonder, hearing those.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Comments are what made me look at her and look for resemblance. But I think maybe subconsciously I was also sort of picking up on it because there was that dissonance when I looked at myself. And whenever she was next to Olivia, something didn't really sit right. And I couldn't put my finger on it.

[Sue Dominus]

But so at a certain point, when Mae Mae is about three months old, Daphna, who's pretty worried about Xander, ends up talking to his best friend Morgan about everything that's been going on.

[Daphna Cardinale]

And so Morgan's like, yeah, no, he's really. He's really worried about it. He's, you know, stressing about it. And so I asked Morgan a direct question. I said, you know, in your opinion, what do you think? You know, do you think that, you know, he's not her dad? He said, well, you know, I think there's a good chance that, you know, one of you guys at least isn't her parent.

[Sue Dominus]

He's pretty certain that at least one of them is not the parent.

[Daphna Cardinale]

And I said, what are you talking about? What do you. What percent he's like, I think I'm like 90% that one of you isn't her parent. And I was floored. I was just completely shocked.

[Michael Barbaro]

So after all of Xander's doubts and this real reluctance from Daphna to see Mei Mei as anything other than her daughter, it ends up taking an outsider, someone from beyond the family, to say this almost unsayable thing out loud. This is potentially not your baby.

[Sue Dominus]

Yeah. You know, when you think about it from Daphne's point of view especially, this baby grew in her, is part of her. You know, it came from her cells. And now that she's been in the world for three months, both of them have bathed her, they have fallen asleep next to her. They know her smell intimately. They love her deeply. But I think once it's been said out loud, you really can't unhear it at that point. It's, you know, you have to really grapple with it and take it seriously.

[Michael Barbaro]

And what does that look like for Xander and Daphna?

[Sue Dominus]

So how soon after that call with Morgan did you guys decide, okay, let's do this? We need to take a test?

[Daphna Cardinale]

I think that night they have one.

[Sue Dominus]

Of these genetic tests that you can buy from Amazon, and you send it back to the company and they tell you the results, and they decide to pull the trigger and use it. So a week passes, they have no response, and the company says they need to do it again.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Then I got a phone call saying, something's weird with these tests.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

It was, like, inconclusive.

[Daphna Cardinale]

It was inconclusive. And I was talking to this woman on the phone, and she said, are you the mother? And I said, that's what we're trying to figure out. We did ivf. We're trying to see are either one of us this child's parents.

[Sue Dominus]

And Daphna is trying to explain, as best she can this very unusual situation where they went through IVF and still don't know if the child is theirs.

[Daphna Cardinale]

And she said, got it. Okay, we'll rerun the test. We'll give you a call on Monday. This is Friday. And I was like, I'm sorry, that's not. No, please, you have to understand what you're actually saying out loud to me. And she said, yes, okay, I'm sorry. I will give you a call in an hour.

[Sue Dominus]

And they finally get the result in the form of an email. Xander Opens it up and reads it.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

So I open it up. It's a jumble of words and numbers. At first, there's two PDFs I lock in on one for the, you know, father, one for the mother. So I open up the father one, and I'm going through the numbers and I'm going through the letters and the words, and I'm trying to make sense of it. And then at the bottom, there it is. 99.9% positive that the subject is not the father. And your reaction was really quick. It was just like, what about me? What about me?

[Daphna Cardinale]

Yeah, I'm in full panic mode. I'm, like, pacing with the baby.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

You're holding her and you're like, okay, well, what do I mean by this? I click on the other attachment for the mother.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Then he hears a big, long sigh without any words. Yeah.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

And it said, 99.9% chance you're not the mother.

[Sue Dominus]

Neither one of them is the genetic parent of Mae Mei. She's not the biological mom, he's not the biological dad. And this beautiful baby who has made their lives so whole and feels so complete and has brought them so much joy is really, in a sense, a genetic stranger.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

[Susan Lee]

I'm Susan Lee. I'm a researcher and fact checker with the Daily. What I do is make sure details in our episodes are accurate. I also spend a lot of time reviewing pretty much anything a guest on the show says. Let's say they're describing the color of someone's sweater. If I find out this person actually wore a blue sweater instead of a red one, I have to make sure that we address it. And I guess some might think that this kind of stuff is trivial, but for us, every single fact in an episode matters. We all make mistakes. We're all human. But my job is to be that extra layer. The Daily is part of the New York Times. We do everything we can to make sure we get the facts right. Subscribers make it possible for us to do that. If you want to subscribe to the New York times, go to nytimes.com subscribe.

[Michael Barbaro]

Sue. After Daphna and Xander learn this pretty world shattering information that Mae is not their genetic baby. What do they do with that information?

[Sue Dominus]

Yeah, I mean, they are devastated. There's just this horrible sense of potential rupture in this beautiful fabric of their lives.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

I mean, there was part of us that just wanted to run away from all of it. You know, like, what if we just fled to Mexico?

[Sue Dominus]

The first reaction is denial. And a desperate wish to make the problem go away however they can. You know, maybe they could do nothing and pretend they never found out.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Well, if we do nothing, then we just keep the status quo and we just move on with our lives. And I said, well, let's walk through that for a second.

[Sue Dominus]

But they eventually did have to start really talking through what those various scenarios would mean, not just for them, but for Olivia and, of course, for Maimay.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

What happens to her when she grows up? What are the questions she's gonna have when she's older? What do we say to her? And every time, it would always end with, what is the right thing for her? And the right thing for her was never just to keep quiet and just pretend like it didn't happen.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Because what was right for Mae was absolutely, this is what we should do for you. Of course we should do this for you.

[Sue Dominus]

And as they're playing at all the scenarios, this other looming horror comes to them, which is the question of, if this is not their genetic baby, where is their genetic baby? What happened in. Is that embryo lost in a pile somewhere at the lab? Is their genetic child being raised by another couple?

[Daphna Cardinale]

Right.

[Sue Dominus]

What if this couple is someone they would never have wished their child to be raised by? This IVF lab sees people from all over the world. Would they ever even be able to find that child?

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Right.

[Michael Barbaro]

Inconceivable thought is now being stacked on inconceivable thought.

[Sue Dominus]

Yeah. Almost too much to take in at one time, I think.

[Michael Barbaro]

And how do they go about finding her parents?

[Sue Dominus]

Well, they eventually hire lawyers who start talking to the fertility clinic they relied on, and very quickly, they get somewhere.

[Daphna Cardinale]

So we have some information. We found. The lab has found her parents. They think they know who her parents are.

[Sue Dominus]

They are pretty sure they have identified who Mei Mei's biological parents are.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Wow.

[Sue Dominus]

Now, that couple also is raising a young girl who is the same age as Mei Mei.

[Daphna Cardinale]

We don't know if that's another embryo of theirs, if that is your embryo, if that is someone else's embryo. We don't know anything about that other baby. But we are pretty sure that. That this is Mae's parents.

[Sue Dominus]

But even still, the lawyers say, look, don't get your hopes up. You know, it could be that this family is raising a third couple's child, that there were many families involved in this kind of confusion, or they could even be raising their own biological child, and they had just had an embryo in the lab but got pregnant on their own. It's definitely not a given that they are raising Daphna and Xander's biological child. Mm. So there was a very real scenario in which Zander and Daphna would not find their baby or embryo and would only lose their child.

[Daphna Cardinale]

And so I remember saying in that moment, did I just lose my baby? Asking them, did I just lose my baby? Did I lose my baby? And they didn't answer that question.

[Michael Barbaro]

And so what happens after they find Mae's parents?

[Sue Dominus]

So right around Christmas, after some back and forth with the attorney and the other family, everyone involved agrees to do DNA tests of both babies and get some answers.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

And the confirmed DNA results had come in.

[Sue Dominus]

It's a match.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

And it came back 99.999% certainty that it was in fact our genetic baby that the other family had and that we had their genetic. There had to be some sort of direct switch that had happened.

[Sue Dominus]

There had been a direct swap. This other couple was raising the biological child of Daphna and Zander just as Daphna and Zand were raising the biological child of this other couple.

[Michael Barbaro]

I mean, this is extraordinary. So instead of the classic switched at birth, we're talking about two babies that were switched in vitro.

[Sue Dominus]

Yeah. I mean, essentially by some fluke accident, likely human error, an embryo from one family was confused with another and was given to the wrong mother.

[Michael Barbaro]

And sue, aren't there a million protocols in place to prevent such a thing? I mean, I'm remembering when I was in the hospital, the armbands, the security procedures. I have to imagine an IVF lab goes to extraordinary lengths to make sure that the embryo belonging to one family could never end up in another family.

[Sue Dominus]

Yes, there are certainly protocols in place, and I'm sure all of these clinics aim for perfection. They are also high volume, they are for profit, and they are widely considered to be under regulated. So we don't have statistics about how often mistakes like this happen or really any other kinds of mistakes that happen in IVF fertilization. What we can say is that we know this is. This kind of mix up has happened. It does seem to be rare. But human error in those moments is at play. Mistakes happen sometimes with emotionally gutting results.

[Michael Barbaro]

And it feels worth saying that Mae looks quite different from either of her parents, especially after that first newborn phase where she kind of resembles Daphne as a baby. But you could easily imagine scenarios where a mixed up embryo actually looks quite a bit like the wrong parents it's been inserted into, even if they aren't genetically related and therefore this might not be caught.

[Sue Dominus]

Yeah, it's Totally possible that Daphna and Xander would never have found out any of this if the physical differences weren't so stark. And it does make you wonder how common it is that this happens and the parents simply don't notice or just chalk it up to flukes of genetics.

[Michael Barbaro]

What do Daphna and Xander ultimately learn about their biological baby?

[Sue Dominus]

Well, they get a photograph first of their baby.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

It was very surreal. I remember it took me physically down. I had to sit down. I was walking downstairs.

[Sue Dominus]

It comes in a text message from the lawyer, and it really hits them all at once.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

All it says is, they call her Zoe. And it was a picture of this adorable little baby that looked so shockingly familiar to me. A lot like Olivia looked.

[Sue Dominus]

I mean, they look at this photograph and they just know that this is their biological child.

[Daphna Cardinale]

I think I felt. I was feeling so many different feelings at the same time. It's kind of hard to put into words for me. I think I felt the guilt and the shame of not knowing her when I saw that picture. I'm like, how do I not know my baby?

[Sue Dominus]

And then on top of it, to make it all so much more poignant, there was this other crazy wrinkle, which is that their own biological baby had been living, it turned out, just a few miles from them.

[Michael Barbaro]

Wow.

[Sue Dominus]

And it turned out later, they'd been going to the same pediatrician, and both moms had raised with the pediatrician their concerns about how unusual it was that their child looked so little like them.

[Michael Barbaro]

All of this just seems unimaginable. I'm curious what Xander and Daphne come to learn about this other couple just a few miles away who have been improbably raising their baby girl.

[Sue Dominus]

Well, you know, even just from the communications they were getting from the lawyer and the texts that they were, like, getting glimpses of, I think they could see that they were, you know, responsible, kind people, even just from, like, the very, very early interactions. And they learned that the father is Asian American, the mother is Latina, and, you know, they're sort of leading these parallel lives and, you know, making similar decisions at the same time and having similar confusions at the same time, too.

[Michael Barbaro]

And just to spell this out, the question of what happens next for these parents is by no means clear or simple. It's not like you can just say, oh, we found our genetic child. Let's just swap babies. Because by now, these children have grown in their mother's bellies. Like you said, they share cells, and they are, in effect, their children.

[Sue Dominus]

Yeah, that's right. And, you know, you could also say that in many ways, these are the mother's biological children. So there's no template for any of this. These families have to figure out all of this for themselves. And the way they do that is by starting really slowly.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

What if we just exchange information and you guys just kind of get to know each other from here and then.

[Sue Dominus]

And the first thing they do is decide to meet without the children at.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

The lawyer's office in the following days between Christmas and New Year, when we went to.

[Sue Dominus]

So Daphne and Xander are, you know, waiting quite anxiously for this other couple to show up.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

And they walked into that boardroom, and.

[Sue Dominus]

As soon as they do, Daphne and Mamie's biological mother have this deep, deep hug.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

The way that you two embraced each other, and you said to her, you know, how are you doing? Or something. And she said, terrible. And you guys just embraced each other in such a way.

[Sue Dominus]

I mean, I have to say that that was their first impulse is so touching to me, because I think so many people might see that other mother as the enemy.

[Daphna Cardinale]

I don't know why it doesn't seem so obvious for a lot of people, but for me, it feels obvious that they were in the same exact position that we were in. You know, they were. They found out that their daughter wasn't theirs. They also had an older sibling. You know, they were in the same position as usual, and they were not the ones who made the mistake. And we had no reason to fight with them. They weren't going to cause us any pain.

[Sue Dominus]

But they both recognized in each other that almost no one in the world was experiencing the same pain that they each were. And they felt this gratitude that the other person had been raising their child. Clearly, I mean, it's just such a. An unbelievably intense first meeting that to me, gets off in such a loving way. And then the dads kind of looked at each other, I think, and it was. They were the ones who could say, like, by the end, you know, clearly, we are going to be switching these babies.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

If it was going to happen, we knew it needed to happen before they got any older.

[Daphna Cardinale]

We needed to switch them before the stranger danger kicked in so that they would feel comfortable in their homes and in their families.

[Sue Dominus]

But it's one thing to decide, okay, we're going to switch these babies. It's another to think, but how do we do it in a way that is best for the babies and also most bearable for the parents and also the siblings? So they together came up with a Plan, which is to do it in a way that allows the babies to adjust and, frankly, allows all of the emotional stakeholders to adjust.

[Michael Barbaro]

Mm. And what did that plan actually look like?

[Sue Dominus]

So they had to schedule a first meeting, and the way they decided to do it was to have both sets of parents and both babies meet for the first time at Xander and Daphna's house. And Xander decided to document the moment on video.

[Michael Barbaro]

You hear them?

[Daphna Cardinale]

I heard her.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

I heard her voice. I could hear Zoe. This baby, this child we had never met before. I heard her before I saw her, because I heard them walking up and she was crying, and I instantly, like, just recognized her cry. It sounded exactly like Olivia when she was that age.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Sounds like my baby.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Sounds like Olivia. Like, I just locked eyes with her. I was so happy and excited. Hi, bubba.

[Michael Barbaro]

Hello.

[Daphna Cardinale]

You're so blonde. You are so big.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

How did she get so big? How are you so blue eyed, Bubba?

[Sue Dominus]

You do.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

But at the same time, this wave of sadness washed over me of just how big she was. She wasn't, you know, 30 seconds old. She was three and a half, almost four months old. And so it was such a complex feeling of being so excited and so happy and so in love with this little person and at the same time processing all of those sad feelings.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Yeah, I don't remember. I remember being extremely nervous, anxious. I was really focused, I think so much on May that maybe I don't remember as much about what was happening between me and Zoe. I remember tracking maybe the whole time. I just wanted that first meeting to go really well for them. I wanted them to have that special connection, and I wanted that first thing to be special for her, even though she wouldn't remember it, but, like, they would, and they would respond to that and take care of her. But I just needed it to go well for her in that moment, that first meeting. I was losing a child that I love so dearly that it sort of eclipses everything else.

[Sue Dominus]

For Daphna, her priority was making sure that the baby she'd been raising and to whom she was incredibly bonded and connected was having a good experience with her actual biological parents. It was a little bit hard for her to really connect with Zoe in that moment.

[Michael Barbaro]

So there's this tug, this tension of which of these babies am I supposed to be mothering in this moment? Because, in a sense, she is mother to both.

[Sue Dominus]

Yeah. Whose emotional needs are most pressing, are most emotional to me in this very moment. And I think both mothers were also trying to figure out in real time what role to play vis a vis the other mother in the room. So they're just processing so many layers of their own needs and the baby's needs. So they had this first meeting, which was complicated, but it was a first step. But it was only a first step.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

The plan was to go back to each other and continue to sort of get to know each other a little bit further.

[Sue Dominus]

And they decide that they're going to phase in, meeting the babies, spending time with them, having the babies acclimate, having the siblings acclimate to their new siblings, and just spending time together until they're really ready to make a permanent switch.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

It was a great plan.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Yeah.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

I mean, in theory, it was actually the best way we should have done things. But the reality.

[Michael Barbaro]

And how did it feel to have this alone time with the babies?

[Sue Dominus]

It was really hard for the parents.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Yeah. You know, honestly, I just. I. I think I was. I was really numb and super emotional, but I. I had to lock up my emotions during the day to get through the day. So for me, I went into, like, almost, like, robotic, like, I'm gonna learn all the things that she likes. I'm gonna make it super comfortable.

[Sue Dominus]

Daphne talks about how she's really just trying to get through the day with Zoe and getting accustomed to taking care of her and building that relationship while she was simultaneously really, really missing Mae. And so they went back and forth for a while until it really just became too challenging emotionally.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Like, this is too much for everybody. It wasn't about your ideal anymore.

[Daphna Cardinale]

And it also became like, what are we doing? We're just falling in love with someone else's baby. Like, we're falling in love with each other's babies right now. More and more and more.

[Sue Dominus]

Basically, it just became understood that it had to stop, that they just needed to make this switch as painful as it was. And so just about three weeks after they first met, they did the final switch.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Mm.

[Sue Dominus]

And at first, they decided they're not gonna see each other for a little while, so everybody could sink into this new reality and accept it as their own.

[Daphna Cardinale]

I think Zoe had an easier time adjusting, and it's really.

[Sue Dominus]

And Zoe, you know, was thriving. She was adjusting fairly well. But it took a very, very long time for Xander and Daphna to adjust.

[Daphna Cardinale]

For me, falling apart. Not to be super dramatic about it, but pretty much, like, wailing in the shower. You know, the only super private place I could get was, like, the shower. And so I would take a shower at night and just completely fall apart.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

No, it sounded like a. Like, Just a wounded animal.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Just. Yeah. Just letting the tears and the. Whatever needed to come out.

[Sue Dominus]

In fact, I think they would say that that pain is still very much still with them.

[Michael Barbaro]

Of having to say goodbye to May.

[Sue Dominus]

Having to say goodbye, of feeling that they miss her, of feeling guilty that they are not raising her, even though they know she's in wonderful hands. It's just, you know, it's really, really hard to raise kids, even under the best circumstances. But in this case, all the usual guilt, all the usual regret, all the usual sense of loss that is so much a part of parenting because your kids are changing all the time. I think all of that was just so amplified for everyone involved.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Mm.

[Daphna Cardinale]

But there was another moment where, you know, I was aware of my own stuff and how much my own emotions were impacting the kids or was trying to be aware of it. I think I'd be aware.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Trying to be aware that you. You were aware that you had grief that was clouding something.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Right. And so I.

[Sue Dominus]

And then comes this moment when Daphne realizes that whatever her own emotional turmoil is, she needs to find a way to put it away and really show up for Zoe as her mother and be her mother. And it's really Zoe who kind of makes that clear to her.

[Daphna Cardinale]

I was taking the trash out, and Zoe was in the house. I came back to Zoe just crying beside herself because I had left her for a moment to take out the trash. In that moment with Zoe, I was like, I'm for better or worse. I'm her mom. I'm the only mom she's really gonna have now in this life. I'm the one for Zoe, so she deserves to have me be fully present. She needs me to get over my BS so that I can just be here for her and love her completely. So whatever defenses I have in place because I don't want to be hurt again by losing it, somebody that I love, I have to say, fuck it. If I get hurt in the same way again, I get hurt in the same way again. But she has all of me.

[Michael Barbaro]

I'm curious if being present for Zoe, being really dialed in to Zoe inevitably means that Daphna and Xander need to cut off their contact with Mae.

[Sue Dominus]

Yeah, you could see how that would be a natural impulse, that it was just too confusing, and it would just be easier if everybody went to their respective corners. But that's not what happened.

[Daphna Cardinale]

We're like, okay, we haven't gone anywhere. You guys haven't gone anywhere. I just. I can't take it anymore. I need to Go and just see her.

[Sue Dominus]

You know, when the pandemic hit in 2020, there are lockdowns everywhere. And sort of organically, the two families ended up creating one of those pods together.

[Daphna Cardinale]

We were dropping things off at each other's houses.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Yeah.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Like I remember, for like Easter.

[Sue Dominus]

And started spending more and more time together.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

It was their birthdays was the first major big holiday. Right.

[Sue Dominus]

Eventually spending birthdays and holidays together.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Like a really solidifying moment was Thanksgiving, where I realized we'd been spending the.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Whole year together because, you know, because it felt normal.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

It was like, oh, this is just family now.

[Sue Dominus]

It took that. Instead of longing for their children and missing them, these two families decided almost to become like one big family. Happy birthday to you Happy birthday to you. John. John's here again. And Zoe and May become inseparable.

[Daphna Cardinale]

They talk about each other like sister, best friends, best friend, sisters, sister, friends. And that's the best way I know how to describe it is because sometimes they feel like sisters and sometimes they feel like friends. One, two, three. Look at Mo.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

We're Daddy, Xander and Mommy.

[Daphna Cardinale]

D. Yeah, that's. That's who we are.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

That's how she knows us. And. And it doesn't make sense to anybody else on the planet but her.

[Michael Barbaro]

It's kind of hard to fathom a better outcome than the one you're describing here. You can imagine so many alternative scenarios where these families ended up profoundly at odds, not speaking. This could be filled with awkwardness and acrimony. I'm curious, sue, when you were done reporting out this extraordinary saga, what did it teach you in what seems like this never ending quest? You have to understand families.

[Sue Dominus]

Well, of course there is this real cautionary tale aspect to all of this, but I think what it made me really recognize is that there will probably always continue to be new permutations of family that we haven't anticipated. I mean, there are going to continue to be technological advances that change the way we think about. About the formation of family. Things with gene editing, things with genetic testing, things with embryo selection potentially you know, increasing down the road, whatever it is. I mean, the way that people form families and what kinds of permutations, that's all going to keep growing and changing. And Xander and Daphne and Zoe and Mei Mei and the other wonderful family in this story, they really give me great comfort that whatever comes along technologically, we do have the potential to manage it with humanity, love, good sense, Grace, and that our idea family might only continue to expand over time.

[Michael Barbaro]

Sue, if I may be so bold, I think that for me, this has been a story about the choices we make to love and how Xander and Daphna keep choosing to love. They choose to love a baby even when she's not genetically theirs. And then they choose to love the baby that was unknowingly taken from them. And then they choose on top of all of that, to fall in love with this other family that they've fallen into this completely unfathomable situation with. That's a lot of choosing to love.

[Sue Dominus]

Yeah. And I think that they were making a choice, you know, either to close their heart or to make it bigger. And it's to everyone's benefit that they were able to make the choices that they did.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, sue, thank you very much.

[Sue Dominus]

Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure, and especially with this story.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Foreign.

[Sue Dominus]

Hey, I'm Tracy Mumford. There is a lot happening right now.

[Daphna Cardinale]

The Headlines podcast from the New York.

[Sue Dominus]

Times will catch you up on the latest. In 10 minutes or less, we'll take you inside breaking news and big investigations.

[Daphna Cardinale]

From the Times newsroom.

[Sue Dominus]

Plus bring you the stories that make you go, huh?

[Daphna Cardinale]

Whoa, I didn't know that.

[Sue Dominus]

Listen to our show the Headlines every weekday morning.

[Daphna Cardinale]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michael Barbaro]

Here's what else you need to know today. Tensions in Minneapolis flared on Thursday after President Trump threatened to invoke the Insurrection act to tamp down protests that have intensified over a second, second shooting by ICE agents. The shooting occurred on Wednesday night when federal agents tried to arrest a Venezuelan national in the country illegally. ICE officials said that the man resisted arrest and, joined by two others, attacked an ICE agent with a shovel and a broom, prompting the agent to fire his gun in self defense. The shooting unleashed a new round of protests and deepened outrage from the state's Democratic leaders, including its governor, Tim Walls. Let's be very, very clear, this long ago stopped being a matter of immigration enforcement.

[Alexander Cardinale (Xander)]

Instead, it's a campaign of organized brutality.

[Michael Barbaro]

Against the people of Minnesota by our own federal government. That in turn prompted Trump's threat to invoke the Insurrection act, which would allow him to deploy members of the military to Minnesota, where he claims local officials have failed to protect ICE agents from the protesters. Today's episode was produced by diana wynne, carlos prieto, luke van der pluk, and caitlin o'. Keefe. It was edited by michael benoit. Contains music by elisheba itu, marion lozano, pat mccusker, and dan powell, and was engineered by alyssa moxley. That's it for the Daily I'M Michael Bavaro. See you the on on Sunday when I'll bring you the new Sunday edition of our show.

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