Bernie Sanders Says Democrats Have Lost Their Way

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Bernie Sanders Says Democrats Have Lost Their Way" | The Daily

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Daily
• Host/Author: The New York Times
• Description: The Daily delivers the biggest stories of our time, narrated by top journalists. Hosted by Michael Barbaro and Sabrina Tavernise, it offers a 20-minute daily deep dive into news and current events.
• Episode: Bernie Sanders Says Democrats Have Lost Their Way

---

Introduction

In this insightful episode of The Daily, host Michael Barbaro engages in a candid conversation with Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. As the Democratic Party grapples with significant electoral setbacks, Sanders provides a thorough analysis of what he perceives as the party's missteps and offers a roadmap for rebuilding its connection with the working class.

---

1. Reaction to Republican Control of Congress

Timestamp: [02:09] – [03:08]

Senator Sanders begins by addressing the recent news of Republicans gaining control of both the House and the Senate, coinciding with President-elect Donald Trump taking the White House. He emphasizes the urgency of rallying the American populace to counteract what he views as Trump's aggressive and potentially democratic-threatening agenda.

Notable Quote:

“This is a pivotal moment in American history. And the next year or two will determine what happens in this country for decades.”
— Bernie Sanders [03:08]

---

2. Democratic Party's Disconnect with the Working Class

Timestamp: [04:15] – [12:18]

Sanders delves into his critique of the Democratic Party, arguing that it has systematically abandoned the working class—a shift that has not only affected white workers but has extended to Latino and Black communities. He attributes this disconnect to decades of policy choices, including trade agreements like NAFTA, which he believes have harmed the economic stability of ordinary Americans.

Notable Quotes:

“A Democratic Party which has abandoned working class people would find that working class people have abandoned them.”
— Bernie Sanders [05:59]

“Today in America, 60% of our people are living paycheck to paycheck.”
— Bernie Sanders [06:08]

---

3. Identity Politics vs. Economic Concerns

Timestamp: [12:18] – [16:10]

Addressing the role of identity politics, Sanders clarifies that advocating for civil rights and fighting bigotry should not overshadow the economic struggles facing the working class. He argues that the Democratic Party should balance its commitment to social justice with robust economic policies that address income inequality and workers' rights.

Notable Quote:

“It's not either or, it is both. And you have to decide what is the vision of the Democratic Party.”
— Bernie Sanders [16:10]

---

4. Media and Communication Strategies

Timestamp: [20:35] – [24:50]

Sanders criticizes the Democratic Party's reluctance to engage with diverse media platforms that reach broader and younger audiences, such as podcasts and shows like Joe Rogan's. He underscores the importance of meeting voters where they are and effectively communicating a clear and compelling vision for the future.

Notable Quote:

“There is a new world of media out there. It is podcasts. It is Joe Rogan. It is Fox News. It is young people who nobody in the Democratic leadership has ever heard of.”
— Bernie Sanders [22:10]

---

5. Vision for a Future Democratic Candidate

Timestamp: [25:56] – [27:41]

Looking ahead, Sanders outlines the qualities he believes are essential for a Democratic candidate who can successfully reconnect with the electorate. He emphasizes the need for a leader from the working class who is committed to fighting economic inequality and challenging the dominance of big money interests.

Notable Quote:

“We need somebody who primarily is prepared to stand up to the ruling class of America and say, you know what, we like your entrepreneurial capabilities, but you got to control your greed.”
— Bernie Sanders [27:16]

---

6. Trust in Government and Policy Implementation

Timestamp: [27:47] – [30:15]

Sanders acknowledges the pervasive distrust in government, both from perceived inefficiencies and the entrenchment of corporate interests. He argues for modernizing government institutions, improving public sector wages, and ensuring that policies aimed at reducing poverty and inequality are effectively implemented.

Notable Quote:

“We have got to do better than that. What's the answer? The answer is to bring young people into government who believe in a mission to improve the lives of people.”
— Bernie Sanders [28:30]

---

7. Final Insights and Future Steps

Timestamp: [30:41] – [33:08]

In closing, Sanders reflects on the Democratic Party's internal dynamics, contrasting his own camp with figures like Nancy Pelosi. He emphasizes the importance of embracing progressive economic policies while avoiding the pitfalls of excessive identity politics that may alienate the working class.

Notable Quotes:

“Every one of those issues is enormously popular.”
— Bernie Sanders [31:04]

“What's the answer is to bring young people into government who believe in a mission to improve the lives of people.”
— Bernie Sanders [28:30]

---

Conclusion

Senator Bernie Sanders offers a compelling critique of the Democratic Party's current trajectory, highlighting a critical need to realign its priorities to better serve and connect with the working class. By advocating for a balanced approach that addresses both economic inequality and social justice, Sanders provides a vision for revitalizing the party's base and effectively challenging Republican dominance in the upcoming political landscape.

---

Notable Moments:

• Recounting Past Interactions: Sanders recalls his 2020 interview with Michael Barbaro, highlighting the evolution of their conversations and setting the stage for a more in-depth discussion this time.

• Economic Policy Emphasis: Throughout the interview, Sanders consistently stresses the importance of addressing income and wealth inequality, healthcare as a human right, and the necessity of a living wage.

• Critique of Media Engagement: Sanders points out the Democratic Party's failure to adapt to new media landscapes, thereby missing opportunities to engage with a broader audience.

---

Final Thoughts: For Democrats seeking to regain lost ground, Sanders' insights serve as a crucial roadmap. Emphasizing direct engagement with economic issues, fostering inclusive yet economically focused policies, and embracing diverse media channels are pivotal steps toward rebuilding trust and achieving electoral success.

Transcript

[Instacart Advertiser]

With Instacart, you can get all your holiday essentials delivered in as fast as 30 minutes, whether it's the white elephant gift everyone will want to steal or the secret ingredient that makes great Grandma Jo's cookie recipe so great. Just download the Instacart app to find recipes, shop ingredients, and whip out dishes so delicious your aunts and uncles will forget to ask about your love life. Enjoy free delivery on your first three orders. Service fees and terms apply.

[Michael Barbaro]

From the New York Times, I'm Michael Bavaro. This is the Daily Today. As the Democratic Party sifts through the rubble of its sweeping electoral loss and tries to chart a path back to power, few people have as clear eyed a diagnosis as Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. Which is why I gave him a call. It's Friday, November 15th.

Hello, Senator Sanders.

[Bernie Sanders]

Yes.

[Michael Barbaro]

Michael Barbaro.

[Bernie Sanders]

Hey, Michael. How are you?

[Michael Barbaro]

Very well.

I reached Senator Sanders inside his office on Capitol Hill on Thursday morning.

You may not remember this, but the last time you and I spoke was back in 2020. We were in the same room and we were working on a profile of you focused on your earliest days in public office as mayor of Burlington. Oh, it's not as vivid a memory for you, apparently, as it is for me.

[Bernie Sanders]

Was it a good story?

[Michael Barbaro]

I thought it was a good story. We had our moments, you and I, in that interview, and we don't need to reconstruct the whole thing. But there was a pointed moment where you were frustrated with something I asked. You almost got up and left, but then you decided to stay.

[Bernie Sanders]

All right, let's do better this time.

[Michael Barbaro]

Moving on. I just want to begin, Senator, by asking for your reaction to the news of the past 24 hours that Republicans have taken control of the House. Because what that means is that Republicans now control both chambers and the White House. You are about to be in the minority as President elect. Trump brings a very aggressive agenda to Congress. An agenda, frankly, that Democrats have called, among other things, a threat to democracy. So how are you processing that?

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, obviously, our job is to rally the American people, to make it clear, especially to working people, that we need an economy and a government that works for all to expose as best we can what Trump and his administration are doing. But it's not just an inside the Beltway game. It's a question of rallying the American people to fight back effectively.

[Michael Barbaro]

So you're in a fighting mood?

[Bernie Sanders]

Oh, absolutely. I think right now this is a pivotal moment in American history. And the next year or two will determine what happens in this country for decades, in my view, fighting mood or.

[Michael Barbaro]

Not, are there any areas where you are prepared to work with the President Elect?

[Bernie Sanders]

Absolutely.

[Michael Barbaro]

And what might those be?

[Bernie Sanders]

If Trump, for example, follows through on his proposal to limit interest rates on credit cards to 10%, which is what he campaigned on. Absolutely, I will be there. I think that's a very good idea. I think it's time we told the people on Wall street they cannot charge desperate working class people who can't have a hard time paying their bills. 25, 30, 40% interest rates. That's usurious, that's immoral. And if Trump wants to impose a credit card limit on interest rates, I'll be there.

[Michael Barbaro]

So where your vision of championing the working class overlaps with his, you may.

[Bernie Sanders]

Back his agenda if he comes up with reasonable ideas. Yes, I would be interested in working with him.

[Michael Barbaro]

Let's turn to what I think is going to be the heart of this conversation, Senator Sanders, which is the effort underway across the Democratic Party, and you're a big part of it, of reckoning with the meaning of the outcome of this election and understanding not just why Kamala Harris didn't win, but why Donald Trump in victory, expanded his electoral reach into communities of color, into America's youth, into blue state America, including your own home state of Vermont, where when you look at the New York Times graphic, you see those red arrows suggesting his support deepened since he last ran. Donald Trump has created the most racially and politically diverse coalition of any Republican in a generation. And you have participated, as I said in the post mortem underway across the Democratic Party. And I just want to read something you have said that a lot of people, when they read it, found very bracing. This is what you said, Quote, it should come as no great surprise that a Democratic Party which has abandoned working class people would find that working class people have abandoned them. And you went on to say, first this abandonment was among white working class Americans. Now it is Latino and black workers as well. While the Democratic leadership defends the status quo, the American people are angry and they want change. And they're right. I want you to just explain what you mean and be very specific, if you can, when you say that the Democratic Party has abandoned the working class. When and how did the Democratic Party abandon the working class?

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, it's something that's been going on for decades, including disastrous trade policies pushed by Bill Clinton.

[Michael Barbaro]

You're talking about nafta.

[Bernie Sanders]

Yeah, that's right. The reality is the American people, well, many of them are angry and they have every Reason to be angry today in America, and sometimes some of the elite does not understand this. Today in America, 60% of our people are living paycheck to paycheck. I grew up in a family that lived paycheck to paycheck. I understand the stress involved in that. It means that if your car breaks down, you don't know how you get to work. If you get sick, you don't know whether or not you can afford to go to a doctor. If your landlord raises rent by 20%, you don't know where you're gonna live, where your kid is gonna go to school. That's the reality facing 60% of the American people. Meanwhile, the very wealthiest people in this country have never, ever had it so good. That's a reality. So what happened in this campaign is Donald Trump said to the American people, you're angry. You're really pissed off. And I know that, and you're right. And then he gave his explanation. And his explanation, which was obviously nonsense and false and racist, et cetera, was that millions and millions of undocumented people were coming across the border. They were invading America or an occupied country. They were taking your jobs, taking your benefits, eating your cats and your dogs. That is why you are hurting. Now, that is a crazy explanation, but it is an explanation. Now, you tell me what the Democratic explanation was.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, please, please, please explore that. Map this critique onto the Democratic campaign and its shortcomings.

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, the Democratic explanation was, hey, we have passed some good things, very important things in the Biden administration, which happens to be true. Biden kept his word. He was the most progressive president on domestic issues since fdo. We did a lot of good things. But instead of saying, yeah, we are rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure, we're lowering the cost of prescription drugs, we are transforming our energy system, we forgave student debt for 5 million people. We're making some progress, but we have a long, long way to go.

[Michael Barbaro]

Wait, can I just pause you? Because I think I'm not certain I'm understanding something. Where did the campaign of Kamala Harris go wrong? If it was working with what you're describing as the building blocks of a successful policy agenda, And I know that you have many, many times.

[Bernie Sanders]

It's not just Kamala Harris. It's in other words. Let me read you something, if I might, please. What I think is one of the most interesting speeches ever given. Franklin Delano Roosevelt inaugural speech in 1936, middle of the Depression. So he starts his speech. He says, look, these are the things we did. These are the obstacles that we had to overcome. And then he says, after being president for four years, he says that I quote, I see millions of families trying to live on incomes so meager that the pall of family disaster hangs over them day by day. I see millions denied education, recreation and the opportunity to better their lot and a lot of their children. I see one third of a nation ill housed, ill clad, ill nourished, end quote. In other words, what Roosevelt did, he said, look, we're making progress. But I look out all over this country and I see tens of millions of people who are hurting. Instead of doing that, when the Democrats said, well, we passed the Inflation Adjustment act and the economy is pretty good and Donald Trump's a bad guy and we all defend the women's constitutional right to an abortion, there was no appreciation, no appreciation of the struggling and the suffering of millions and millions of working class people. And unless you recognize that reality and have a vision of how you get out of that, I think you're not going to be going very far as a political party.

[Michael Barbaro]

You're saying that the party in this last election didn't communicate that they understood Americans pain. As a result, they came off as defending the status quo. And I mean, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that. Kamala Harris was asked repeatedly what she would do differently in this campaign and pretty much said she didn't think anything needed to be done differently and she didn't campaign on disruption or large scale change. You seem to be suggesting that's at the heart of Trump's victory.

[Bernie Sanders]

The point that I am making is that ordinary people are not stupid. They see what's going on in their own eyes. And if you're not even talking about the reality of what is going on, the reality of their lives, they're going to say, hey, no change is going to come. Why would I want to vote for a group of people who don't even acknowledge the reality? For example, you tell me you follow these things.

[Michael Barbaro]

I do.

[Bernie Sanders]

We have today more income and wealth inequality than we've ever had in the history of this country. Did you hear a lot of discussion on that?

[Michael Barbaro]

No.

[Bernie Sanders]

We are the only major country on earth not to guarantee health care to all people is a human right and the only major country not to provide paid family and medical leave. Do you hear much discussion of that?

[Michael Barbaro]

Not in this campaign.

[Bernie Sanders]

Not in this campaign. You got 20 million people in America today who are trying to get by on less than $15 an hour. Did you hear any serious discussion of the need to raise the minimum wage to a living wage.

[Michael Barbaro]

I don't think we did.

[Bernie Sanders]

Oh, missed that one, too.

[Michael Barbaro]

Why do you think, Senator Sanders, that Democrats didn't communicate an understanding of his pain? I mean, one of the ongoing critiques of the Democratic Party that emerged since this election is that it is a party of elites captive to college educated coastal America and that it's not understanding and communicating this pain because it's not living that pain.

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, that's only half of it. It is not beholden to college educated people. That's the wrong word.

[Michael Barbaro]

Okay.

[Bernie Sanders]

It is beholden to the donors who put hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars into it and to the bloody consultants out there who will end up this campaign making zillions of dollars doing their 30 second TV ads rather than figuring out how we talk reality to ordinary people and get them involved in the political process.

[Michael Barbaro]

Senator, I want to talk about what Democrats did talk about in this last campaign because I think it may get to a second element of your critique, aside from big money and aside from the question of whether Democrats failed to communicate an understanding of working class American pain. And your second critique of Democrats in this moment was around identity. And I want to read what you said about identity politics. And just to define this phrase, identity politics, I think what you mean is a focus on racial identity, sexual identity, among others. This is what you said. You said it's not just Kamala Harris, it's a Democratic Party, which increasingly has become a party of identity politics. Rather than understanding that the vast majority of people in this country are working class. This trend of workers leaving the Democratic Party, and you return to this theme, started with whites and it has accelerated to Latinos and blacks. When I hear you say that, I hear you saying, and I want to make sure I'm interpreting it correctly, that the Democratic Party, including over the past year or so in this campaign, has turned off many working class Americans who feel that the way the Democratic Party, especially its leaders, talk about things like race and gender and trans people leaves them feeling alienated from that conversation, being policed and even scolded by it for not using the right words, for not accepting something, something like trans youth on sports teams. Is that what you mean?

[Bernie Sanders]

That's part of it. But I think the more important point is being ignored. Their needs are being ignored. And let me be very clear, where the Democratic Party deserves a lot of credit over the last many decades is in fact leading the effort for women's rights. And we have come a long way until Roe v. Wade as A matter of fact. And the Democratic Party deserves a lot of credit for fighting for civil rights, for fighting for gay rights, for fighting to end bigotry, all forms of bigotry in this country. Democrats were right on that struggle. But you can go forward in both directions. You can say, we are going to fight for a bigotry, free America. That's an ongoing struggle. We made progress, got a long way to go. But at the same time, we can stand up for the working class in this country, which, by the way, happens to be significantly African American and Latino and women, who are the bulk of the working class in this country. So it's not either or. It's going forward in both directions. That is a winner. Some of the Democrat pundits say, well, you know, the problem is all of these Trump people are racist and they're sexist and they're homophobes. Well, no doubt that some of them are. And that's true. Most of them are not. And I suspect many of them actually voted for the first black president in American history, Barack Obama. All right. But they are, in large numbers, working class people, and we have got to speak to them in an economic perspective that is clear and straightforward.

[Michael Barbaro]

I guess I'm a touch confused by the answer you just gave because your quote about identity politics seem to suggest that the Democratic Party's focus on identity is in some opposition to its ability to appeal to working class voters who may feel turned off about that. But then in your answer, I felt a little bit of a retreat from that understanding. I just wanted to.

[Bernie Sanders]

No, it's not a retreat. It's not a retreat. You can say, look, isn't it great that we have, in fact, a very smart and effective black woman who's on the Supreme Court? Great. But you don't hang your hat on that and say, hey, well, what you also want to do is talk about the reality of what's going on in the African American community all over this country.

[Michael Barbaro]

So it's a matter of communicating that perhaps the Democratic core values are things like diversity, but not to the exclusion of these central questions of economics.

[Bernie Sanders]

It's not either or, it is both. And you have to decide what is the vision of the Democratic Party? Who's the Democratic Party taking on? You tell me, Michael. In this campaign, Donald Trump was taking on. I mean, every day there was another enemy out there. But by and large, the basic problem was millions of illegal immigrants coming in who are eating our cats and dogs, and they were the enemy. Could have solved that problem. Everything would Be great. Who was the Democratic Party taking on in that campaign? I mean, what was their explanation? What were they going to do to address the fact that so many people in America are struggling? Did it have anything to do with the greed of corporate America? The fact that you have a billionaire class today that wants it all, they want to own the political system. Does anyone really talk about the degree to which the people on top own this country and want more and more and could give a damn about ordinary Americans? Now, that is what I believe. Unlike Trump, that's what I believe the cause of our problems are. I believe that we can create a nation in which all people have health care, all kids have good quality childcare, we have a strong public education system. I believe we can do that. But we're not going to do it unless we are able to take on the big money interests who want to use this economy to make themselves even richer than they are right now. That is the defining issue.

[Michael Barbaro]

To go back just a second, you seem very clear on the idea that the Democratic Party can be a party that embraces diversity as a core value and even elements of what you described as identity politics. But I just wonder if you can grapple with the reality that Donald Trump's message in opposition to things like diversity, equity and inclusion, holding it up as a boogeyman and suggesting that it is unfair and that Democrats want to bring that unfairness and make it more and more central to the country's identity, seem to resonate in this election.

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, it resonates within the context of Democrats not recognizing the pain that ordinary people are feeling and taking on the people who caused that pain and routing people around an agenda that works for them. You can't fight something with nothing. You got to have an alternative vision. Trump had his vision. It was incorrect. It was dishonest. It was in many cases racist and sexist. He had a vision. He had an explanation. To my view, Democrats really did not.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

[Instacart Advertiser]

Amgen, a leading biotechnology company, needed a global financial company to facilitate funding and acquisition to broaden Amgen's therapeutic reach, expand its pipeline, and accelerate bringing new and innovative medicines to patients in need globally. They found that partner in Citi, whose seamlessly connected banking markets and services businesses can advise finance and close deals around the world. Learn [e-mail] clientstories this podcast is supported by USA for UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency. People facing war and violence are now facing winter far from home, in temporary shelters and with little to keep them warm. UNHCR works around the clock to support the most vulnerable. It's during the winter months that your support makes all the difference. Help protect refugees and people forced to flee as they face winter far from home. Your gift is matched for a limited time. Give [e-mail] Winter.

[Michael Barbaro]

I want to press a little bit further into this question of Democratic leadership being out of touch with the working class and not meeting voters where they are. You've started to clearly articulate this when you criticized the Democrats for not appreciating and communicating the pain of America's working class. But another element of this emerging Democratic critique since Election Day is that Democrats have drawn what some are saying is unnecessary lines in the sand about where they go to have this conversation in the first place. When you were a candidate for president, you had no problem going on shows like Joe Rogan's. He ended up backing you for president in 2016. And in this campaign, Joe Rogan invited all the candidates on his show. Donald Trump said yes. J.D. vance said yes. Tens of millions of people saw it. Vice President Harris declined that invitation to go on the show. We suspect in part because they worried about blowback from Democrats who don't like Rogan. They think he's insensitive. He's not one of them. And since then, we found out some voters viewed that Rogan interview with Trump as kind of decisive in their decision to vote for Trump. Are Democrats writing off too many places and too many mediums in this moment and making a mistake in their ability to reach working class voters where they are?

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, funny you ask that, Michael. I am thinking back to when I ran for President in 2020 and I did an interview with the New York Times. You work for the New York Times, right?

[Michael Barbaro]

I do.

[Bernie Sanders]

And we did an interview with the editorial board of the New York Times, of which I think they gave each member 20 members or so. I don't remember. Two votes apiece. Right. I was either ahead or in second place in the polls at that time. And of the 40 votes that were cast, I got one of the votes. That was what the New York Times thought of my campaign. And yet here I am on your show as an employee of the New York Times. Am I afraid of being on your show? I am not. Am I afraid of being on Joe Rogan show? No. Bottom line is what every communications director knows is that there is a new world of media out there. And it's not just NBC, CBS, or the New York Times. It is podcasts. It is Joe Rogan. It is Fox News. It is young people who nobody in the Democratic leadership has ever heard of, who have YouTube programmers that attract millions of people. That is the reality. Can you ignore that? That is insane. Anyone who thinks you could ignore that reality is crazy, in my experience. Not that I've been on millions of these shows. The people that I talk to treat me with respect. And I think you cannot be, you know, oh, Joe Rogan said this or he says that. Yeah, so what? You know, my wife disagrees with me on this or that issue. So what? You can't run away from somebody because they may have said something stupid or something that you disagree with. That's life. But most importantly, when you go on the show, what do you say? So Joe Rogan asked you, what do you think about the fact that we have more income and wealth inequality than ever before? Oh, well, I don't know. I can't answer that question. What do you think about the fact that we're the only major country not to guarantee health care? Well, gee, I'd like to not talk about that, but I don't want to offend the insurance companies. Why are we paying the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs? Well, I can't talk about that because, you know, I get money from the pharma. That's the problem. So, yeah, you got to go on different outlets. Of course you do. But most importantly, you got to know what you believe and what you're prepared to fight for and what your vision for the future of this country is.

[Michael Barbaro]

Do you think that the Democratic Party is really prepared to go where it needs to go in taking the lessons that you're laying out here and really moving ahead with them. I don't know if you know that former Speaker Nancy Pelosi came on a podcast by our colleague Lulu Garcia Navarro and was presented with your critique word for word, of a Democratic Party. And if I can put it politely, she dismissed it and said, well, I completely disagree with what he's saying. By the way, Kamala Harris did better than, you know, Senator Sanders in Vermont on Election Day. She pointed out you've lost your races for president and Democratic primaries.

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, I tell you, I got 63% of the vote, and I didn't spend one nickel on advertising in Vermont. How's that? Look, I respect Nancy, and we've known each other for years, and we've worked together on some issues, like the American rescue plan, which I thought was a very consequential piece of legislation. But, you know, Nancy and I have different visions as to the future. I think Nancy's views may reverberate here inside the Beltway. I'm sure a lot of the pundits and the consultants and politicians agree with Nancy. I suspect if you go out into the hinterlands, you'll find that most people agree with me.

[Michael Barbaro]

Senator, looking forward to not just the idea that the party will take what you're saying and perhaps run with it, but that it needs to be embodied in a candidate who can win. When you close your eyes and think of who can lead the party out of this very decisive and for many Democrats, devastating loss, what do you see? Not necessarily who do you see. I mean, maybe there is a who in your mind, but what is that future candidate?

[Bernie Sanders]

Look, it's a candidate preferably, but not necessarily somebody from the working class who can speak to working class people, who will fight to end all forms of bigotry in this country, but is mostly prepared to take on the big money interests who today have an unprecedented level of economic and political power. With the advent of all the new technologies out there, Michael, in terms of artificial intelligence, in terms of robotics, et cetera, we truthfully have the capability now of creating a society where all of our people have a decent standard of living. Yeah, we can actually wipe out poverty. We don't need to have people sleeping out on the streets. The question is, who will control the utilization of that technology and who will benefit from it? So we need to have somebody who primarily is prepared to stand up to the ruling class of America and say, you know what, we like your entrepreneurial capabilities, but you got to control your greed. You can no longer have it all. You're going to be an important part of the future, but you're not going to own and control the future. We need somebody like that.

[Michael Barbaro]

Do you think that if Democrats do meet voters where they are and connect with the pain and they pitch the kind of progressive policies that you're advocating for here, especially on economics, that is the winning combination or has trust in the Democratic Party for a lot of the reasons we've been talking about here been strained, if not broken in a way that means that even getting it right here is not really possible.

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, that's a very good question because.

[Michael Barbaro]

There'S been a huge loss of faith in government.

[Bernie Sanders]

Yeah, that's right. That's right. You're right on that. And I will tell you that even within the confines of the Democratic caucus, and I don't talk about things that happen behind closed doors, but you'll have Democrats, US Senators standing up and saying, you know what? They hate us out there.

[Michael Barbaro]

Us, the government or the party?

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, they hate the party and they understand. And you're onto another issue which we don't have time to get into right now. Even when government does the right thing, you got a bureaucracy which is so slow in implementation of policy that people don't see it when they should be seeing it. But that's a whole other issue.

[Michael Barbaro]

It's another issue and perhaps another conversation. But if people don't have faith in government, how do your solutions, which do require a tremendous role for our government, how do you sell them?

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, that's again a good question. And I think here's where we're at. The Elon Musk's of the world will say, look, government can't do anything. It's going to be the private sector.

[Michael Barbaro]

Cut it, cut it, cut it is his message.

[Bernie Sanders]

Right, right. And look, Elon Musk is a very, very aggressive and capable business person. Very impressive of what he's accomplished. And he says, I can do more in a week than the government can do in five years. In some ways he is right. The problem is at the end of his efforts, he ends up making zillions of dollars and working class people are not any better off. All right? The alternative is to say, oh, let the government do it right now. But you got a government that is inefficient and bureaucratic. So people are looking and say, all right, we got the greed of the ruling class. They do things pretty well, but they end up with all the money and the working class ends up with the lowest standard of living than they used to have. Or you got a government which is very slow in doing anything. So that is, it seems to me, where we are as a nation, we got to do better than that. What's the answer? The answer is to bring young people into government who believe in a mission to improve the lives of people. Whether you work in the post office, whether you work in the Veterans Administration, whether you work in Social Security, pay these people well. Give them good management. Let them be proud of the important work that they are doing. No more important work in this country than being a public school teacher. All right? Yet we underpay those teachers. We put them under terrible working conditions. Choice has got to be to modernize government, make government work for ordinary people. Health care for all is the human rights. If other countries around the world can have national health care programs, so can the United States of America. We're not dumber than other people.

[Michael Barbaro]

I have a final question. For you?

[Bernie Sanders]

Yeah.

[Michael Barbaro]

When Trump won last time, many Democrats organized themselves into what was loosely described sometimes by them as the resistance. That resistance, many Democrats now think, ended up pushing the party further and further to the left, leading to things like a primary in 2020 in which people like Kamala Harris made commitments to left wing causes that came back to haunt her and made it possible.

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, now you're on to another, Michael.

[Michael Barbaro]

No, I'm just on.

[Bernie Sanders]

You're dead wrong.

[Michael Barbaro]

This is my final question. Do you worry that the party could be heading down that path again of.

[Bernie Sanders]

Michael, you haven't heard a word that I've said, and that's impressive. You know, it's the things that Kamala was talking about, the things that I was talking. Every one of those issues is enormously popular. Is that what you're talking about?

[Michael Barbaro]

No, no, no. I mean, on social issues.

[Bernie Sanders]

Oh, I don't know. You know, social issues. You know, she. I don't know.

[Michael Barbaro]

Yeah. Setting Kamala aside, I think what you're about to tell me is, Michael, many of the economic issues on the left are very popular with many Americans as economic policy.

[Bernie Sanders]

Yeah. We uphold them all. In Missouri, you may have followed in this election. Missouri, a conservative state, 58% of the people voted to raise the minimum wage. Oh, by the way, we haven't been able to do that here. In a Democratically controlled US when those.

[Michael Barbaro]

Policies were in isolation on the ballot, separate from a Democratic party and candidate carrying all the baggage that we're talking about here.

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, the point is, if Democrats were focusing on those issues and saying, gee, how come that one Republican wants to raise the minimum wage to at least 15 bucks an hour? How come one Republican doesn't believe that healthcare is a human right? How come one Republican doesn't want to expand Social Security so that the elderly people can live their lives with dignity? You put them on the defensive, but when you don't offer anything, you are on the defensive.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. I mean, it's worth saying that many of those Missouri voters voted for those progressive economic policies as ballot measures and then turned around and voted for Trump, which means it's deeper than policy.

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, maybe next time we'll go into that. No, it's not deeper than policy.

[Michael Barbaro]

Senator, I know you have to go. I don't know if you've been thinking about this, but you're 83 and.

[Bernie Sanders]

Thanks, Michael. I did know that. See, this is a perceptive New York Times investigative reporter. I kind of knew that.

[Michael Barbaro]

There we go. But running for president, depending on the moment and the candidate can be a very age defiant question. And you still sound like a candidate for president to me. I mean, is it totally out of the question?

[Bernie Sanders]

Yeah. Yes. I don't think the American people want a president who's 104 years of age. So, you know, you'd be 87. All right. Well, the answer is, I would say it's, you know, I'm very proud that the people of Vermont in very large numbers reelected me for a fourth term. I'm very proud of that. And that's where we are.

[Michael Barbaro]

All right, Senator, thank you for your time.

[Bernie Sanders]

Thank you. Bye bye.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

[Citi Advertiser]

Think you've got customer loyalty lockdown? Medallia, the leader in experience management trusted by brands like Meta, Volvo Cars and CVS Health, recently asked consumers what they thought about loyalty, and they didn't hold back. One in eight customers say they'll ditch your brand after just one bad experience. It happens even to the best brands. But there's good news Medallion knows what it takes to help you win their loyalty back. Get the scoop on all things [e-mail].

[John Grisham Advertiser]

Loyalty John Grisham explores the dark side of the criminal justice system in his New York Times bestseller written with innocence advocate Jim McCluskey, framed 10 true stories of innocent people framed for murder. In framed, you'll be astonished as you witness the incompetence, racism and corruption that all play a part in the miscarriage of justice. And you'll be inspired as you witness these wrongful, rightfully convicted people fight for freedom against all odds. Read Framed by John Grisham and Jim McCluskey in stores now. Also available as an audiobook.

[Michael Barbaro]

Here's what else you need to know Today. President Elect Trump said he would nominate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. To lead the Health and Human Services Department, giving a vocal skeptic of vaccines responsibility for the nation's vast system of public health. If Kennedy is confirmed, his resistance to public health measures and his embrace of alternative medicine could lead to fierce clashes with the agencies that he would oversee. And on Thursday, the governor of New York dramatically revived a first in the nation plan to fund mass transit by tolling cars in Manhattan's busiest neighborhoods.

And I'm proud to announce we have.

[Bernie Sanders]

Found a path to fund the mta, reduce congestion and keep millions of dollars.

[Michael Barbaro]

In the pockets of our commuters.

Governor Kathy Hochul said that the program, known as congestion pricing, would begin in January with a toll of $9 per car, down from the original price tag of $15 per car. Hochul had canceled the plan over the summer because she argued that original toll was too high. Remember, you can catch a new episode of the interview right here tomorrow. This week, David Marchese talks with Dr. Ellen, a longtime advocate for and practitioner.

Of medical assistance in dying Sometimes I struggle when I see a young, beautiful person choosing to leave earlier than they needed to. But I believe so strongly in basic human rights.

[Bernie Sanders]

If that person says that they can't.

[Michael Barbaro]

Live in with this condition, I will honor their wishes.

Today's episode was produced by Jessica Chung, Michael Simon Johnson and Nina Feldman. It was edited by Paige Cowett, Lisa Chow and Patricia Willens with help from Michael Benoit. Contains original music by Marion Lazarus and Pat McCusker and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsfurk of Wonderlee. Special thanks to Lexi DL, Lisa Lair, Reid Epstein and Shane Goldwalker. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Labaro. See you on Monday.

[Citi Advertiser]

Overwhelmed by your to do list? Meet Claude, your new AI assistant from Anthropic. Whether you're crafting the perfect email, planning a family vacation or tackling a home improvement project, Claude is your go to collaborator. Need to whip up a quick meal plan? Claude's got recipes, Struggling with the spreadsheet formula? Claude's your Excel guru. From creative writing to data analysis, Claude brings expert level insights to your daily challenges. It's like having a brilliant friend on speed dial ready to help 247 join thousands already simplifying their lives with Claude. Curious how AI can transform your day? Discover the Claude Advantage at anthropic.com Claude.