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- [00:00]
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- [00:35]
David Marchese
From the New York Times. This is the interview. I'm David Marchese. Bob Odenkirk has had one of show business most wonderfully improbable careers. After decades as a cult hero in the comedy world, thanks mostly to his 90s sketch series Mr. Show with Bob and David, he became a mainstream success as of all things, a serious dramatic actor. First in a supporting part as the shifty lawyer Saul Goodman on Breaking Bad, and then to further acclaim as the star of that show's spinoff, better Call Saul. Lately, his career has taken another turn that few could have seen coming to action movie star. The latest example is called Normal. In it, Odenkirk plays a small town Minnesota sheriff facing off against, among other villains, the Yakuza. You might think that at 63 years old, Odenkirk would be pretty pleased with the way his career and life have shaken out, but you'd be wrong. Here's my conversation with Bob Odenkirk. Bob, I think we're good to go if you're good to go.
- [01:42]
Bob Odenkirk
This is a big production, as I said to you. I know when we were just sitting down, it just, it just feels very important in a way that scares the shit out of me. But onwards. All right.
- [01:56]
David Marchese
I don't want you to be scared. There's nothing to be scared of. It's all in your head. There's nothing bad that's gonna happen.
- [02:01]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, there's a lot in my head. Yeah. All the bad stuff.
- [02:05]
David Marchese
But thank you again for being here. And just before I was told that we got the green light to start, you were telling me about a novel you just read.
- [02:14]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [02:15]
David Marchese
And how it affected your thinking maybe about something important that happened to you. So pick up where you left off.
- [02:20]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah. So almost four years ago, I had this heart incident. One of the tributaries to my widowmaker artery was shut down completely by a plaque buildup. And I was really out and I went to the hospital. I got two stents. I really went down on the set of Better Call Saul and it was really scary, especially for everyone around me, not for me, because I don't have any memory of it, but I've talked about it many times, and people have asked me many times, how did that affect you? And I think. I think first people want to hear that you saw a white light. Then they would love to hear that you watched your whole life pass before you on a film reel. And I kind of wish that happened to me. That would have been cool. But that didn't happen to me. It was a blank for me for a week. I came to, essentially a week later, I came to the next day. But I don't have any memories till a week later. So I've tried to answer this question to people. How did it impact you? And I've had a hard time doing it because I've always felt I don't do justice. The feeling of it, the experience of it. Okay, so then I'm reading this new. This book, that novel that's called on the Calculation of Volume. And I'm reading this book, and the character in this book is having a very unique experience of time. And she's relating her experience of reliving the same day over and over. And I come to these passages, and I'm like, that's how I felt. That's exactly how I felt for weeks after having this heart attack. And there's, like, a couple passages in here that I marked because I'm like, I've never been able to express this to people. Yeah.
- [04:11]
David Marchese
Can you read one?
- [04:12]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah. I'll read you a section to show you what I mean. She says that in this unfathomable vastness, these infinitesimal elements are still able to hold themselves together. She's talking about the world around us and ourselves, that we manage to stay afloat, that we exist at all, that each of us has come into being as only one of untold possibilities. She goes on like that. And I marked that whole passage. But then later, and I'll just read this one section. I had a day to go, and I went with it. There was no plan. There was an outline, one which I could follow, floating gently. There was no goal, no prey to be caught. I was not a circling raptor, a vulture, a shark, a big cat poised to spring. I was not on my guard. This was something else. I was on a journey. On my way home. I thought I was traveling on an open ticket with no itinerary. I journeyed through the minutia of the streets in a universe replete with minor incidents, a host of objects and occurrences and sensations all crowded Together in my memory. Well, there's a few more passages, but gosh, to hit upon that and think that's what I should tell people. I just couldn't believe how much these couple passages expressed this way of living that had something to do with experiencing time. Obviously this term being present, but it took no effort and how amazing it was. It was really a beautiful way to live in the world. And I knew it would go away too. This is going to go away a little at a time as I go forward and I have to try to remember it. I have to try to live this way. I just. The degree of freshness to the world around me and the amazement of that and the beauty of it was something I. I got to be in. And so I thought that might come up that question. And since I just happened upon these passages, I wanted to share them.
- [06:30]
David Marchese
Yeah, it was gonna come up. But something else I was interested in about that experience is related to what you just described. The awareness, that feeling of being present was going to fade. Yeah. How effectively can you get that back?
- [06:49]
Bob Odenkirk
I was going to finish your sentence without ketamine or some mind altering drug. I think you can. I really do. Honestly, just reading those passages made me go, all right. That's what's going on here. That's how I can be in the moment and live in the world. It's still close enough to my sense of I can get there. I think I should challenge myself to do it more. But even the burden of saying I should challenge myself immediately starts to ruin it with guilt and responsibility and, you know, as she says in the book, no, I'm not a raptor. I'm not a. I'm not ready to spring. I'm not a jungle cat ready to spring. I'm not. We live in a world that is about achievement. You don't want to live without purpose. But all we're about is getting. And you know, it seems to be the only way to feel of value is becoming a millionaire. So you want to be a millionaire? What's that?
- [08:11]
David Marchese
Who wants to be a millionaire?
- [08:12]
Bob Odenkirk
Who wants to be a millionaire? Well, I guess everybody but who wants to be happy? How about that for a TV show?
- [08:21]
David Marchese
Well, in a weird way, it's possible that the path to being a millionaire is clearer than the path to being happy.
- [08:29]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, it surely is. It surely is. Yeah. And of course, most people think being a millionaire is what makes you happy, but just go talk to a millionaire.
- [08:40]
David Marchese
Well, you're a millionaire, I would guess.
- [08:42]
Bob Odenkirk
Sure.
- [08:43]
David Marchese
Did that make you happier?
- [08:45]
Bob Odenkirk
There's no question that the security that you feel from not being afraid of a health issue or what, housing, whatever, you know, is a great comfort and helps you to be more at peace with life. There's no question it should help you. It's just not as much help as you think it should be. I mean, yes, you can eat steak every night, I guess, but then you get sick of steak,
- [09:19]
David Marchese
you know, There was a clip of you from an interview that I saw earlier this year that's been kicking around my head since I saw it. And you were being interviewed by Mike, and he asks you if there's anyone you're jealous of or something like that.
- [09:37]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [09:38]
David Marchese
And the way you answer the question was by saying you're jealous of anyone who has young kids at home, because when you had young kids at home, you had no questions about what your purpose was. You know, it's like your job was to take care of the kids and do dad stuff. Is it the case that you understood that in the moment I did, or you only understood that in retrospect?
- [10:01]
Bob Odenkirk
No, no, I understood it in the moment I absolutely knew this was the best time I'll ever have in my life. No question. I also, I've got to add, it's not just a sense of feeling valued and feeling purposeful. It's entertainment. There's nothing more entertaining than a little kid. So I knew, like, that this could be the best thing you could do. And I still think that way. I wish. You know, it's funny, I left that interview with Mike Birbiglia, and I didn't think about that specific quote, but I did talk think about that section of the interview. And I thought, I think they'll cut that out. Because isn't that kind of depressing that this guy who has had so much achievement in his career, that really should be the most rewarding thing, and is missing a chapter of his life that is gone now that cannot come back. I mean, you can be a grandparent and sure, that's great, but he's obviously saying the best thing, the best chapter of my life is behind me. And I know that that's kind of sad to say, and I always feel bad when I see people who are doing well, well enough to be interviewed and talked to, and they seem kind of depressed. I'm always like, oh, come on, can't you be happy? You know, but what can I say? I was just being honest. That's how I feel. I feel like there's nothing I can do. I can't sit down to try to write a great movie or learn a wonderful script or direct something, or I don't. There's nothing. Climb a mountain. There's not a fricking thing I can do that is going to match the value that I felt for life of being a parent of kids between 0 and, you know, usually around 14, 15, they're like, they're done with you.
- [12:11]
David Marchese
I think it would have been more depressing if you said the thing that brought you the most value and purpose in your life was being in Better Call Saul. Imagine your kids hearing that answer.
- [12:21]
Bob Odenkirk
You know, it's funny. I have so many people. Obviously, there's. This is the biggest thing I did was Better Call Saul so far. And I can't imagine doing anything bigger than that either. But I just forget that I was in this show completely. I mean, I lived so much of my life before that, and I lived it, and I achieved things that I cared about a great deal. Almost to a strange extent. When I was writing my memoir, I wrote so much about sketch comedy, and I called it comedy, comedy, comedy, drama, because I was worried that people would go, oh, this is the better Call Saul guy. I'm gonna read about his journey to being on that show. And it's like, no, I'm gonna talk about 45, 50 years of caring about and writing sketch comedy. I'm barely going to talk about the thing that you know me from, because that was such a small part of my life. And. And. And still, when I was writing the book, I was thinking, there's something wrong with this guy. It's an interesting thing to. You should write. Anybody should write their memoir when they get around 50. And you may see what I saw were like, this guy's like a. And we all are, but this guy's like a broken toy. He's got something wrong with him. And he keeps going in this one direction like, I'm writing about me. And I'm like, will you give it up already? You know, you've already been on Saturday Night Live as a writer. Give it up. Stop. Even after Mr. Show, I'm still doing, you know, trying to help. Tim and Eric are being a part of all this sketch type comedy. And I just think, well, there's nothing to say, but there's something wrong with me. And I don't know what it is, and it makes me go in this one direction.
- [14:13]
David Marchese
You know, the idea that you were sort of like a broken toy that kept pursuing sketch comedy. Yeah, I'm glad you did, because I've really gotten a lot out of your comedy over the years and to such an extent that still when I watch a movie like Normal or the Nobody films, I'll have moments where I think, wow, it's weird that Bob Odenkirk is like blowing people away in these movies.
- [14:40]
Bob Odenkirk
It's very weird.
- [14:41]
David Marchese
What cultural itch do you think these kinds of action movies that are about an unassuming middle aged man whose sort of inner hero comes out, what itch are they scratching? Why are they proving to be so successful right now?
- [15:02]
Bob Odenkirk
Well, I've thought about this a lot. I'm not sure I. I'll do my best. It's. It's wish fulfillment. It's wish for, let's say, first of all an evil that is so clear and obvious that it's worthy of our anger, which these movies do, especially the Nobody movies. There's a point in both movies where you trip over into James Bond land and a real guy who's been established and who has tensions and sensitivities and struggles that feel very real. And that's partly because of it's me playing them. And I'm not magically delicious. I'm not super handsome, young, muscled up, any of that. You can relate to all these things. They're very grounded at moments. And then there comes this point in the movie where that guy. You are living in a movie and you can do things that you can only do in a movie. The same thing happens in normal. True, but normal is a little elevated from the get go. I would say. It's a little like inside of a snow globe world right from the start. Whereas the Nobody films make. Make a real attempt to, to be living in the, in the world, you know. And so I think we, we go through life, there are frustrations everywhere. There are big ones and small ones. There are ones that have to do with our inner lives that we simply can't sort out easily. And you can't act on those frustrations in a physical way. You can't do that. We can't live in that world. We decent to each other in a movie. You can do it.
- [17:03]
David Marchese
So you did Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul and there was sort of an indisputable popular success to that stretch of work. And prior to that, when people would talk about Bob Odenkirk, it was often attached to a term like cult success or cult favorite, which of course is a backhanded compliment for not really successful at all. But prior to this big career like Double Bump, you had sort of relatively late. Did you have moments where you thought, like, I don't know if I'm going to get the success I want, or I don't know if the career is really working.
- [17:49]
Bob Odenkirk
I did have doubts and concerns, but they weren't about that. I didn't. My bigger problem was once I was finished with Mr. Show, which was so much of what I wanted to try to achieve in sketch comedy, like, what? Now I got a chance to do it. I got a chance to do it really well. I got total freedom to do it. Incredible support. David Cross and I couldn't be better partners for what we did. Now what now what do you want to do that's going to drive you through the next 20 years of a career? And I was lost because I had already achieved in sketch comedy and with the cult success that I had, I had achieved everything that I was aiming at. That's what I was aiming for.
- [18:40]
David Marchese
But what gives your life purpose now?
- [18:46]
Bob Odenkirk
Trying to find the next thing to do that will give it purpose. Trying to find the next thing that will feel rewarding and impactful and of value.
- [19:02]
David Marchese
You have had the opportunity to work with people that I would consider comedic geniuses, like people like Jeanine Garofalo or Chris Elliot, who had success but kind of never went gangbusters. And then you've also worked with people like Ben Stiller, Adam Sandler, Jack Black, who got as big as someone in comedy could reasonably expect to get. Do you have any understanding of why that person and not that person? Like, is there something sort of innate that leads to massive success?
- [19:41]
Bob Odenkirk
I think that some of the people I've known who have great talent and haven't achieved what you might call a massive success that might be on the level of their talent. My experience of those people is that they don't really want it. There comes a level, a point in their journey where they see this thing and they go, oh, yeah, I don't want that much pressure. I don't want that many people looking at me. I want this many people. I want, you know, 15 million people, not 800 million people. Like, I do think there's like, everybody has a sense of this threshold. Look, when my kids were about 8 and 10 years old, we were on a vacation, and I remember we were in a supermarket and we were getting lunch and somebody came over to talk to me because they knew me from Mr. Show and this was before Breaking Bad. And I thought, this is the perfect level of success because I can go out in the world and be myself. And if there's a person in the room who knows who I am. I can tell you who they are. They will have a tattoo from one of my shows. They will love me a lot. And then everyone else in the room will not know me at all, and I can just be myself. And then with Breaking Bad, then you get into a level of, now I'm in an elevator at the mall, and everyone in this elevator knows who I am. But the difference between how they know me is wildly varied. You know, one of those people knows how I look at the world. The person who's watched Mr. Show, they know how I see the world. The person who knows better Call Saul. That's just not even close. They don't know me. They know this character I played that is not me at all. And yet I appreciate that they like that work and that they know me, and I'm thankful. And. Yeah. So I think when you ask about that, the question, part of the question is, is there a choice? Do you get to see this thing coming your way and do you get to choose? I'm going to go ahead and be more famous, and then I'm going to live in a world where there's a little bit of discordancy between who I am and how I'm known. I get why people go, no, thank you. I'm going to stay in my littler world where when you know me, I know how you know me. And that means something to me that I'm okay with. I don't know if this whole chapter of our interview is weird.
- [22:27]
David Marchese
I think weird is good. I think weird is good. But something I've seen you mention a few times is this idea that sketch comedy tends to be a younger person's game? A little bit, yeah. Do you find that at. You're what, 63 now?
- [22:42]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [22:43]
David Marchese
Is your relation to sketch comedy different than it used to be?
- [22:46]
Bob Odenkirk
Well, it is, simply because I've spent the last 15 years doing drama and action, and I've had to think a lot about those things. So, for instance, my friend David Cross and I are working, working on a project right now, and it's a play I did, Glengarry Glen Ross.
- [23:01]
David Marchese
Yeah.
- [23:01]
Bob Odenkirk
And while I was doing that play, I was thinking a lot about the mechanics of a play, because that play is perfect. That play is a machine. It's a machine of drama. It's a machine of laughter. It's unbelievable. It's tight as can be. And so just being a part of it, thinking about it, I started to see some of the, you could say, the mechanics of it and thinking about how great they were and how maybe I could try to steal some of those and make something, too, in that world that might have some value and might work. It's similar to when I was at Saturday Night Live for four years, and I didn't help all that much. I pitched some jokes that Robert Smigel would use occasionally. I had a sketch that would get on, but basically I sat around listening to Al Franken and Jim Downey and Robert Smigel and Conan o' Brien and Jack Handy and Bonnie and Terry Turner, and I watched these people write great sketches, and my brain went, oh, I see what they did. Oh, I see what you did. And it kind of deconstructed it, and then I used it to make Mr. Show. So David and I are writing a play, and we'll see if we get there. But, you know, our great desire to make it is to make it. It's kind of got sketch comedy in it, but it's not a sketch. It's something more, hopefully. But we want to make it a sketch because it's too fun. And sketches are over in five minutes and they're done, and you get to move on to the next idea. So I still. I still have an instinct for it, but I now, I do feel what I've said is true, that doing sketch comedy when you get older is a little strange.
- [24:53]
David Marchese
Why?
- [24:53]
Bob Odenkirk
It's a little like. It's like a young person's energy is right for it. It fits. And when you get older, it's like, what are you doing? What are you doing being so silly? And what are you doing being so? It becomes. I don't know. And it loses something.
- [25:11]
David Marchese
So what's comedy that speaks to you now, where you are in your life?
- [25:14]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, boy. Honestly, the comedy that speaks to me most right now is a thing called On Cinema. It's a pretend movie review show that is on the Internet by my friend Tim Heidecker. And it's again, you know, for me, sketch comedy. And this is kind of a sketch comic thing, but it's drawn out and slowed down. And I think sketch comedy, I'm sorry to say it is the most profound expression of human existence there is, really. I don't think any Kubrick movie or Freudian analysis or Shakespeare or Shakespeare says as much about how humans operate and what is the ultimate problem with us as a species than sketch comedy. And I wish it was not true. I wish the drama, grand drama. I wish that we were worthy of being taken apart and observed in subtle and complex ways. But I Don't think so. I think that ultimately there is nothing more profound about people than you can say in a sketch, they're fucking idiots. People are sadly limited. So limited that you can define them and you can share everything that's important about them in four minutes.
- [27:10]
David Marchese
Wait, maybe this is related. Maybe this is related. Right near the end of your memoir, you write that show business is not curing cancer and that it's a distraction. And the way you put it is. Which is inarguably key to life on earth, because life on earth is so bleak and painful, and the only and best response to that is to look away.
- [27:34]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah. You want me to repudiate that statement?
- [27:42]
David Marchese
I wondered if you were being sarcastic when you wrote that because it struck me as bleak. Pretty bleak.
- [27:48]
Bob Odenkirk
Too sad. I don't know what to say, man. Pretty much do think that's true, but I do think that. But obviously I think there's joy and reward in being alive in the ways in which we look away. In whatever way in which you find to transform that horror. The horror. The horror. In whatever way you find to transform that into something good, entertaining, beautiful, comforting to another person, helpful. That's beautiful. And that's. The joy of life is turning shit into gold. Comedy gold. Well, whatever gold you can make it into, whatever kind of alchemy you can do is, I guess, to me, that's. That's the good part. Now, little kids, and if we want to go back to where you started.
- [29:11]
David Marchese
Yes, that's what I was going to do.
- [29:12]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah, they do that by. Kids do that by being alive. By watching them be alive, you. I think you feel that. That magic, that when you come to fully grasp life and it can be taken away from you bit by bit until it's all gone, but you can reconnect with it. And. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, one of the challenges of this interview was I have no unified field theory of myself. I'm a bit of. As you can see from my career, I kind of go in a lot of directions. And I don't have a very solid justification for the. The whole thing. I can't characterize the whole thing. And my. And the only thing I could say is there's a risk. There's a great risk that I am willing to take, I think, because I don't think much of myself. In other words, let's say I made a huge ass of myself in trying to do action films. Well, so what? So what? I mean, I can still do comedy and claw my way back. I guess maybe we should end on that note. Yeah, but I hope I didn't make an ass of myself. I think that. But the bigger question for me is what do I do now? Because, well, I guess I just do what I've always done. Look for the next thing that seems curious, worthwhile, surprising. I'll find a hard time beating action movies, I can tell you that. I will have a hard time finding anything I can pursue that is as far away from where I started as that genre of film.
- [31:19]
David Marchese
Erotic art house, I guess.
- [31:24]
Bob Odenkirk
Does that still exist? I don't think that exists anymore.
- [31:31]
David Marchese
After the break, I talk to Bob again and he tells me the problem he sees with some of today's most popular comedy.
- [31:38]
Bob Odenkirk
It's definitely about low hanging fruit. Big time. It's like literally on the ground. It's fruit that's on the ground rotting. Pick that shit up and eat it.
- [32:03]
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- [32:33]
David Marchese
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- [32:52]
Bob Odenkirk
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David Marchese
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- [33:55]
David Marchese
Bob, thank you for talking to me again. I appreciate it.
- [33:57]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah, happy to do it David. Thanks for the interest. I appreciate it.
- [34:00]
David Marchese
Yeah. Something I was curious about is we talked a little about the beginnings of your career in the 90s with kind of what people called the alternative comedy scene. And back then I think it was pretty clear to people what that alt comedy was alternative to.
- [34:22]
Bob Odenkirk
Sure.
- [34:23]
David Marchese
You know, it was alternative to a kind of like slick show, busy style of comedy that was sort of the dominant form of comedy at the time. And I wonder, do you think there, as far as you can tell, is there any sort of alternative comedy now? Like what. What is the comedy that, that someone would be rebelling against right now?
- [34:47]
Bob Odenkirk
Well, this is going to sound weird, but probably. What do they call it? The bro.
- [34:53]
David Marchese
The manosphere stuff.
- [34:55]
Bob Odenkirk
Manosphere comedy was, was. Because I think we're starting to put it in the past already, which is great. But I think the manosphere comedy was the reactionary comedy movement of the last five years. And I don't think it has a lot of depth to it. So it's kind of running past pretty quickly. It's dissipating. But it was a powerful movement, it seems to me, of the last five years. What's next? I don't know. But you're not wrong what I call the alternative comedy scene and what I came up in after working at Saturday Night Live and you know, in this world of Jeanine Garofalo, Margaret Cho, Kathy Griffin, Patton Oswald, Greg Barent, David Cross, you know, and then that became. And then Marc Maron and that kind of infiltrated comedy slowly over about five years. And then it kept proliferating and then it became podcasts, but then it just became all of comedy. And I think the format of podcasts really lent itself to a lot of what we were doing, which was more impromptu, genuine personal sharing. And then now it's everywhere.
- [36:23]
David Marchese
Why do you not find the, what we're going to call manosphere comedy to be particularly interesting or funny?
- [36:31]
Bob Odenkirk
Oh, well, it's definitely about low hanging fruit, big time. It's like literally on the ground. It's fruit that's on the ground rotting. Pick that shit up and eat it. Throw it at people. I don't have a lot of opinions on those guys. It's more of a. It's a movement that I'm happy to see transforming into something else and disappearing or dissipating.
- [36:59]
David Marchese
You could say, why do you think it's dissipating? That's not necessarily the sense I get.
- [37:03]
Bob Odenkirk
Cause there's a. It's because it's dead end. It's just gonna be boring after a while. It's like, what? Let's, let's use the stage to be as crude as we can be and as clumsy and oafish. As we can be. And that's kind of funny. Always. That's funny to hear that voice. I think it's funny to hear that voice, but not from everybody. And it's not. I don't think. I think anything you do on a stage is a performance that sounds obvious. But in other words, if you want to say something honest, then you should get off a comedy stage. A lot of comedians get credited for being honest or they get lambasted for the things they say in their act and are asked to explain that or justify it or pilloried for it. And the bottom line to me is if you're on that comedy stage, that's a show, you are not you, you are pretending to be a person named you. Everything you say is of construct. Everything. If you don't like that and you want to tell an audience something genuine, earnest and honest, then get off that stage. Because that stage is only a show. It is not real and it is not genuine and it is not direct, no matter how much you act like it is. And so I just think we have to. I wish everyone saw it that way. Then if you know that, if you know that when you watch anyone do play or any kind of performance, then you can safely watch almost anything and talk about it afterwards and let it. Whatever that does for you, whether it's cathartic and lets that voice out of your head, or whether you can point to that voice now and argue about it, whatever that is, it can offer, it can have a lot of benefits. But the problem we got into there was comedians. And maybe the alt comedy scene led us to it with a degree of, you know, self revelation that was being done. A sense that whatever said on that stage is incredibly genuine and a direct look. Thing is, the Internet has hurt. I'm going to ramble here for a second.
- [39:33]
David Marchese
Keep going.
- [39:33]
Bob Odenkirk
One of the reasons the Internet has hurt is you can tape somebody at 2am in a comedy club and put them on TV and you're watching them at 10am at your breakfast table. That's not right. Because that thing was said at 2am in New York with a bunch of drunk rowdy people after you talked for 45 minutes already. So whatever. Did I help clarify anything?
- [40:01]
David Marchese
I think the distinction you're making about if a comedian or performer is saying something in. In sort of a performance context, that should change how we receive the thing they're saying. Presumably that applies to podcasts also, right? So like a Joe Rogan or an Andrew Schultz.
- [40:24]
Bob Odenkirk
See, I'm not sure it applies to that.
- [40:26]
David Marchese
But why not? Like, those are. Those are performers. I know in the podcast, at some
- [40:30]
Bob Odenkirk
point you have to give people a place to speak honestly and directly, like you and I are doing right here. You know, this is not me doing a character. And I don't. I think it. I don't know. I don't know how to delineate the line, but there has to be a line. This is something I feel strongly about. And I'm never going to get everyone to agree.
- [41:00]
David Marchese
Yeah, no, it's. I'm even trying to understand exactly, like, how those distinctions make a difference. Like, you know, I. I don't know what say. I'm just gonna pick a comedian who I think thinks of. Of what he does as expressing honesty. And truth is, you know, if you talk to someone like a. If you were to ask someone like a Dave Chappelle, are you talking honestly to your audience? I think he would say, well, yeah, that. That's what I do, and that's what comedians do. And you're saying that's not. You don't think he would.
- [41:26]
Bob Odenkirk
I don't, no. I think he'd say, I'm performing. I really do. I mean, we should ask him. But, you know, my friend David Cross gets on stage and he says crazy stuff, and he doesn't believe everything he says. He just knows it's a point of view that is funny to express and that to some extent, people need to hear or be surprised by to get some perspective on their own point of view. And. Yeah, so I'm just thinking everybody has to understand what that line is. It got blurred in a way that I think was very damaging to what we can do as artists. We need to be able to do and say crazy shit.
- [42:16]
David Marchese
But it's also interesting because I think you're saying that sort of the flip side or sort of one of the negative repercussions of the legacy of the alternative comedy was that its emphasis on authenticity or seeming authenticity led people to almost give too much credence to what comedians were saying in a way that led to this line blurring and. And led to some. Yeah, sort of like censoriousness in a way that's damaging to comedy. That's interesting, but.
- [42:47]
Bob Odenkirk
And I'm also saying that it goes two ways. It's the audience has to chill out and watch it as a performance, but the performer, if they really have something to say, should not be doing it there or should not. It's not that they shouldn't do it there. It's that if they really want people to understand it directly. They should get off that comedy stage and say it somewhere else where it's me talking, genuinely me, and not for laughs, not for the sake of laughs.
- [43:18]
David Marchese
You know, can I. There's sort of like a holistic observation I want to make about the conversation so far, and it's one that kind of. Before the camera started rolling or before we hit record, you yourself actually kind of alluded to, I think you said, you know, sorry if I was being negative or something earlier, but sort of thinking back to what we talked about previously, you talked about how the best times in your life were when your kids were little. Those times are over. The art form you love the most, sketch comedy, That's a young man's game. I asked you sort of like a life philosophy question and you sort of like, eh, it's all kind of a farce. And now I know maybe middle age is a time of a certain degree of, like, resignation or acceptance.
- [44:10]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [44:10]
David Marchese
But is there anything that you're, you know, that in your life or work now that you think, like, uniquely, well, this. This is great. Or, you know, I'm looking forward to this thing that might come. Or is it kind of just like a managed decline?
- [44:30]
Bob Odenkirk
God, I'm sorry to be a bummer.
- [44:32]
David Marchese
No, this is real. It's real.
- [44:35]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah. I have a new avenue opened up in front of me with a dramatic acting. This was something that I moved into slowly, starting with barely doing some of it in Breaking Bad and then numerous other projects. And then Better Call Saul was like this big, you know, jump off a cliff. And then you could argue that action filmmaking is conceptualizing that dramatic intensity sometimes to a pretty humorous extent. And then Glengarry Glen Ross was a really exciting discovery and challenge. And I feel like I've found a new avenue here to work in that I'm excited by. That is something that at least attempts to address life in a more sensitive and way with some deeper resonance than sketch comedy can do. But, yeah, if you want to hear something positive, here's my positive.
- [45:49]
David Marchese
Hit me.
- [45:50]
Bob Odenkirk
We gotta keep trying. In the face of what I consider the limitations of being a person, which are strict and seem immutable and there's no way around. So what? We gotta keep trying. I don't know what the future is if we don't hope to try to be better than we are right now. So, yeah, so. I do have some wind beneath my wings.
- [46:26]
David Marchese
All right, good, good.
- [46:28]
Bob Odenkirk
A little bit. Just a draft. There's a breeze beneath my wings, you
- [46:37]
David Marchese
know, but you Just alluded to with Glengarry Glen Ross and maybe with some other work, doing stuff that has some more resonance than the silly stuff. But, you know, when we spoke before, you said you thought that, like, sketch comedy was the most. The best vessel for.
- [46:55]
Bob Odenkirk
I know, David, and I've thought about what I've said a lot, and I think it's true. And I'm sorry to say that I still think it's true. But within that, we gotta keep trying. I'm not giving up. All I'm saying is I'm not giving up. But I'm afraid to say, you know, look, my hope lies in some kind of evolutionary growth for the human creature. But without that, or until that happens, and I don't know how that happens, we all have to take some. We. We all need more vaccines to change our DNA. Well, who thinks that's a bad thing? Have you met a human being? Whatever it takes to change our DNA or RNA or whatever, any na. Let's start changing it because it doesn't work the way it is. That's a good thing. Everybody get more vaccines if that's what they do. If they change our DNA or RNA or however those two are associated, let's take lots of them and make this creature a better creature. Because where we're at, I do stand by what I said. I think a comedy in the end, all the philosophy in the world, all the theories in the world, all the hope in the world, all the grand
- [48:35]
David Marchese
pronouncing the greatest poets to ever live,
- [48:37]
Bob Odenkirk
all the great poetry, existential thinking, Aretha Franklin's voice. Yeah. All of Abraham Lincoln's speeches. And it all boils down to Shakespeare's sound and fury, you know, signifying nothing. Signifying nothing. And you might as well laugh at it. I mean, I do think in the end, that's what we're going to have to do until we change.
- [49:04]
David Marchese
Wait, Bob. If what you're saying is true, and sketch comedy is the sort of best way or is best able to encapsulate the human condition.
- [49:15]
Bob Odenkirk
Yeah.
- [49:16]
David Marchese
What is the most profound sketch you've ever seen?
- [49:21]
Bob Odenkirk
Talk show at sea. It's a Jerry Springer show. We did it on Mr. Show. And they're on a lifeboat and they're dying. They have no food or water, and they're still arguing about who is in love with who and who got who pregnant. And that, to me, that sketch, that's humanity. You're dying. You are going to die. We have no fresh water. We have no food. And they're going, he cheated with her. I love him and it's really, really awesome. And to me, I don't know what else to say. That's the world that I see.
- [50:09]
David Marchese
You know, I really enjoyed speaking with you and I appreciate you taking all the time. And I hope that the sort of pitiful little fart like draft beneath your wings is able to carry you far into the future.
- [50:22]
Bob Odenkirk
It will, it will. Don't forget, I also have. My kids are so wonderful. And so, you know, there's lots to look forward to. I. Yeah, there's lots to look forward to.
- [50:40]
David Marchese
That's Bob Odenkirk. His new movie Normal is in theaters now. To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel@YouTube.com betheinterview podcast this conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Paola Neudorf, mixing by Sophia Landman, original music by Diane Wong, Rowan Nimisto and Marian Lozano, photography by Devin Yalkin. The rest of the team is Priya Matthew, Wyatt Orme, Joe, Bill Munoz, Eddie Costas, Kathleen o', Brien, and Brooke Minters. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. I'm David Marchese and this is the interview from the New York Times.
- [51:36]
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David Marchese
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David Marchese
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David Marchese
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